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Hugoye
06-23-2011, 03:54 AM
Thanks to all for the welcome! Thanks as well for bearing with me in my noobful ignorance.

Some more questions (I'm basically asking them as they come up while I read the books again - nice to have knowledgable folks answer questions! Wish I knew about this place the first time through!).

1) In TSR (Assurances), Fain forces a Myrddraal into his service. What exactly is keeping the Fade from running off?

I figure that it can't be simply fear of Fain's ability to hurt Shadowspawn, since Fain considers (and seems to have planned for) the possibility that the Fade would simply flee once let loose ("It thought him a fool..."), notwithstanding his claim - and the Fade's acquiescence thereto - that "I know how to hurt your sort."

So what has Fain done to keep the Shadowspawn in line? He says something about "agreements and accord," but I can't figure out what that means. Do we know?

2) One oddity that only struck me upon reading through the books a second time (these books are particularly fun to re-read - I keep noticing new stuff!) is that when Perrin and the others in Tear hear rumors of Whitecloaks in the Two Rivers, they only hear that the Whitecloaks are after Perrin and Rand (it is explicitly noted that Mat has been left out). Yet when Perrin speaks to Jac al'Seen, Jac informs him that the Whitecloaks "accuse you and Mat Cauthon and Rand al'Thor of being Darkfriends" (TSR, Questions to Be Asked).

I originally thought the rumors in Tear originated with Fain, but in his narrated portion (TSR, Assurances), Fain doesn't seem to distinguish between Mat and Perrin to the extent that he would deliberately have left Mat out of his tale-spreading. Moreover, he characterizes the rumors he has spread as relating to "the scouring of the Two Rivers" - and from his talk with Bornhald, it sounds like he intends by this actual destruction and murder, like that perpetrated upon the Aybaras, not simply to searching after Perrin and Rand.

So where did the rumors in Tear come from? And why were they calculated specifically to draw Perrin and Rand (if that is indeed what they were designed to do)?

Anyway, I apologize in advance for pestering you with my ignorance (as I'm sure these have all been addressed before).

GonzoTheGreat
06-23-2011, 05:42 AM
The rumour about Whitecloaks can be explained fairly well by assuming that it had been passed along for a while, and Mat had fallen out of the list along the way.
The Whitecloaks were said to be hunting the DR and a man with yellow eyes. Both are noticeable enough to be passed along in a tale, but Mat did not have such easily describable characteristics in that part of the series. So it is quite possible that by the time the tale reached Aringil, it was "the DR, a man with yellow eyes, and some other bloke". The latter would then have been left out in the next retelling, and all Mat heard about in Tear was the Rand and Perrin.

Terez
06-23-2011, 09:03 AM
1) In TSR (Assurances), Fain forces a Myrddraal into his service. What exactly is keeping the Fade from running off? ...

So what has Fain done to keep the Shadowspawn in line? He says something about "agreements and accord," but I can't figure out what that means. Do we know?
The 'agreements and accord' likely had to do with the attack on Taren Ferry, which is what Fain needed the Fade for at that moment. After that, Fain seems to have completely broken the Fade to his will, but we're not sure how, exactly.

Anyway, I apologize in advance for pestering you with my ignorance (as I'm sure these have all been addressed before).Don't worry about asking repeat questions; that's what this thread is for. Ask again, we answer again (though we might sometimes answer with a link).

Hugoye
06-23-2011, 09:36 AM
The rumour about Whitecloaks can be explained fairly well by assuming that it had been passed along for a while, and Mat had fallen out of the list along the way.

That makes sense. I guess I was a little thrown off by the pacing of the books. Because the sense I got from the books was that there really wasn't much time between the Whitecloak arrival in the Two Rivers and the arrival of the rumor in Tear, so I didn't think the rumor had had much time to warp. But I guess the book doesn't really give a chronology so there's no way for me to verify this and I'm probably wrong!

Anyway, thanks!

Terez
06-23-2011, 09:38 AM
That makes sense. I guess I was a little thrown off by the pacing of the books. Because the sense I got from the books was that there really wasn't much time between the Whitecloak arrival in the Two Rivers and the arrival of the rumor in Tear, so I didn't think the rumor had had much time to warp. But I guess the book doesn't really give a chronology so there's no way for me to verify this and I'm probably wrong!
In my sig link there is a fan-made chronology which is pretty accurate (based on info in the books).

Hugoye
06-23-2011, 10:08 AM
In my sig link there is a fan-made chronology which is pretty accurate (based on info in the books).

That's an immensely useful resources.

It turns out that from the day the Whitecloaks cross the Taren until the day the ta'veren hear the rumor in Tear, 16 days had passed. Is that enough time for the rumor to have been garbled enough to leave out one third of the rumor - and also to leave out the "scouring" that Fain mentions? I suppose it might be (especially since a third party wouldn't realize Mat's importance).

Terez
06-23-2011, 10:14 AM
Well, it doesn't seem too odd to me, since Fain's main obsession was Rand and the Whitecloaks' main obsession was Perrin.

Hugoye
06-23-2011, 10:29 AM
Well, it doesn't seem too odd to me, since Fain's main obsession was Rand and the Whitecloaks' main obsession was Perrin.

Definitely. But the party line, according to the Two Rivers folk, was that the Whitecloaks were looking for all of them. And as far as Bornhald knew, Fain cared equally about all three:

Three were spawned here. Not simply Trollocs and Myrddraal. They are the least of it. Three were spawned here, Darkfriends meant to shake the world...Flay them, and the three will come. (TSR, Assurances)

I guess I figured if the rumor materialized from conversations like this, the number "three" would come through loud and clear.

In the grand scheme of things, though, this probably isn't that big a deal. And in any case I'll obviously defer to you experts on this.

GonzoTheGreat
06-23-2011, 10:46 AM
And in any case I'll obviously defer to you experts on this.I don't think that it is sensible to defer to experts when you can check their arguments yourself. Since in this case you can do that, all that should decide whether or not you believe us is whether or not we can actually prove our case to a sufficient standard.

I think I've done that here, but if you disagree, then I would urge you to try to find reasons why I'm mistaken. If you manage it, I'll even (eventually) admit that you were right. And if you don't manage it, it does not provide me with any more work, so there's no downside to this for me.

Terez
06-23-2011, 10:54 AM
Definitely. But the party line, according to the Two Rivers folk, was that the Whitecloaks were looking for all of them. And as far as Bornhald knew, Fain cared equally about all three:

I guess I figured if the rumor materialized from conversations like this, the number "three" would come through loud and clear.
The thing is, I doubt it materialized from conversations like that - more likely it materialized from Bornhald's obsession and Fain's obsession:

TSR 1 - Seeds of Shadow

"We will scour the Two Rivers," Ordeith broke in. His narrow face was wisted; saliva bubbled at his lips. "We will flog them, and flay them, and sear their souls! I promised him! He'll come to me, now! He will come!"

Bornhald nodded for Byar and Farran to carry out his commands. A madman, he thought. The Lord Captain Commander has tied me to a madman. But at least I will find my path to Perrin of the Two Rivers. Whatever it takes, I will avenge my father!

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 11:21 AM
Rand was seen as a false dragon, so he would be expected. If anything, the only reason Perrin's name lasted as long was a testament to the level of effort put into finding him by the whitecloaks. Also golden eyes is sufficiently interesting that people will always include it with the story.

Hugoye
06-23-2011, 11:28 AM
I don't think that it is sensible to defer to experts when you can check their arguments yourself. Since in this case you can do that, all that should decide whether or not you believe us is whether or not we can actually prove our case to a sufficient standard.[/i]

Many thanks! I guess I figured you all wouldn't really have much patience for someone like me, and to be honest I wouldn't blame you...

Anyway, now that I'm perusing the chronology to which Terez pointed me, I've noticed the following data points:

A) Traveling in a hurry from Caemlyn, it took Mat and Thom 12 days to reach Tear (7 days from Aringill).

B) Also traveling in a hurry, although apparently, if I recall correctly, on a rather slow craft, it took Egwene, Nynaeve and Elayne 18 days to reach Tear - and that's not even counting the time it took them to get to Jurene (or, obviously, the day or so they spent in captivity).

C) Between the day Bornhald and Fain cross the Taren, to the day rumors reached Tear of Whitecloaks in the Two Rivers, we have a total of 16 days.

Given that the Two Rivers is further away from Tear than either of those places, and if I'm reading my map correctly (probably not...) is also further away from ports of call on the way to Tear than either of those places, It's hard to imagine that a rumor could reach Tear from the Two Rivers in 16 days and already be garbled enough as to leave out a) Mat, and b) "scouring."

In fact, even if someone left the Two Rivers on the day the Whitecloaks crossed the Taren, how would he get to Tear in just 16 days? Is there even a direct sea route to Tear from the Two Rivers, or Baerlon?

nameless
06-23-2011, 11:31 AM
Merchants and nobles have access to carrier pigeons, and while nobles probably don't much care about what happens to Two Rivers, merchants would be very interested in anything that affected the price of tabac. They wouldn't have had to wait for someone to bring the story across by foot.

GonzoTheGreat
06-23-2011, 11:36 AM
Many thanks! I don't I guess I figured you all wouldn't really have much patience for someone like me, and to be honest I wouldn't blame you!Patience, patience, I don't think I mentioned patience, did I? :p

Davian93
06-23-2011, 11:36 AM
Rumors run far faster than a single person traveling...RJ even mentioned that point specifically in TDR with the following quote from Verin:

LE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 10 - Secrets
"And all word has to come along the same roads we used?" Verin replied. "We have moved slowly. Rumor takes wing along a hundred paths. Always plan for the worst, child; that way, all your surprises will be pleasant ones."

the_collective
06-23-2011, 03:51 PM
Rumors run far faster than a single person traveling...RJ even mentioned that point specifically in TDR with the following quote from Verin:


While I'm willing to accept the possibility that pigeons and the like could get the news all the way to Tear faster than is possible on foot, using a quote from a Darkfriend (even if it is the beloved Verin) is not the best way to prove your point. You must be aware that a lot of what Verin does/says is done/said without a clear motive (but certainly a motive that is contrary to the "obvious" one being given to the audience) and is therefore rightfully subject to suspicion.

Weird Harold
06-23-2011, 04:14 PM
While I'm willing to accept the possibility that pigeons and the like could get the news all the way to Tear faster than is possible on foot, using a quote from a Darkfriend (even if it is the beloved Verin) is not the best way to prove your point. You must be aware that a lot of what Verin does/says is done/said without a clear motive (but certainly a motive that is contrary to the "obvious" one being given to the audience) and is therefore rightfully subject to suspicion.
Regardless of later revelations, in tDR, Verin was -- and is -- considered and "authoritative source." There is very little information in the entire series that comes from Verin that can be demonstrated to be erroneous.

As for methods of rumor transmission, a boat from Tairen Ferry to Illian and a coastal craft from Illian to Tear could transmit a rumor in sixteen days -- with the distortion dropping Mat from the wanted list.

AND/OR

Pigeons sent from any point along that route could shorten the transit time below sixteen days.

It is unlikely that part of the rumor's travels didn't include river transport, and given the timing, probably small, fast, boats rather than cargo transports that have to heave to at night.

the_collective
06-23-2011, 04:36 PM
Regardless of later revelations, in tDR, Verin was -- and is -- considered and "authoritative source." There is very little information in the entire series that comes from Verin that can be demonstrated to be erroneous.

I guess what I was trying to say is this: Is no one willing to entertain the possibility (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/07/shadow-rising-read-through-9.html) that the rumor originated in Tear itself?

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 04:51 PM
I'm always willing to entertain notions with even the tiniest chance of being right.
I think one point in favor of the rumor originating elsewhere is the fact that there were no Trollocs mentioned, certainly an interesting bit to any story.

I think if it originated outside of the two rivers though, it was the work of balwer and Niall, probably trying to flush them out of hiding and catch them coming home. Likely Niall was influenced by fain as well, who would have wanted the rumors.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 05:22 PM
I actually didn't click that link before I replied, so I guess my new theory is not so new after all

nameless
06-23-2011, 05:35 PM
That theory seemed pretty weak to me. If there's anything fishy going on in bringing to rumor to Tear so quickly, I'd nominate Perrin's destiny/impropability field as the chief suspect. We know from Verin and Mat that the field can reach halfway around the continent when it needs to.

the_collective
06-23-2011, 05:50 PM
That theory seemed pretty weak to me.

In contrast, I thought it eloquently described not only the oddity that the rumors were different in the two areas (Tear, Two Rivers), but also that Lanfear's Caravan of Convenience showed up ready to go in the Aiel Waste very close to the time that Rand (and Co.) himself arrived there...

nameless
06-23-2011, 06:01 PM
The weak part for me was motive. Lanfear's got no particular reason to care about Perrin except as a possible way to influence Rand.

Terez
06-23-2011, 06:03 PM
Unless she understands ta'veren influence, and wanted to get one of them away.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 06:04 PM
I think its Niall, under fains influence. It fits into both agendas.
For risk...sending an entire legion into andor is stupid, which Niall is not, so who would credit the rumors? Especially when bornhald took precautions for secrecy.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 06:06 PM
Unless she understands ta'veren influence, and wanted to get one of them away.

Her actions in tdr certainly seem to indicate that she does.

Also shades above is accidental.

the_collective
06-23-2011, 06:09 PM
The weak part for me was motive. Lanfear's got no particular reason to care about Perrin except as a possible way to influence Rand.

Are you saying, then, that had "Goldeneyes" not been mentioned in said rumors, you would find it easier to believe that Lanfear had started them herself, while in Tear - where she knew him to be (that flag is a dead giveaway ;))- in an effort to lure Rand back 'home'?

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 06:11 PM
Lanfear wanted rand to seek glory, something she would think hard to find in the two rivers.

Davian93
06-23-2011, 06:11 PM
Occam's Razor for this would be the rumors just spread quickly as rumors are oft to do...I dont see any evidence or reason for Lanfear or anyone else artificially spreading the rumors.

the_collective
06-23-2011, 06:22 PM
Lanfear wanted rand to seek glory, something she would think hard to find in the two rivers.

Assuming the idea Lanfear had in place was more or less as presented in that theory I linked @ the 13th Depository (post #20, I believe), what's not glorious about learning how to effectively use Callandor with an enslaved Lanfear-rival for a teacher, protecting your homeland from hordes of Lanfear-special-ordered-Shadowspawn (expect 3-4 days of the Ways for delivery)?

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 06:27 PM
Maybe. I'll entertain remote possibilities, but in my way.
Niall (with fain) had motive and means.

nameless
06-23-2011, 06:28 PM
There wasn't supposed to be a horde, though. Slayer's orders were to bring in a few hundred Trollocs to track Fain down, and he was surprised when the campaign ended up needing thousands.

Weird Harold
06-23-2011, 07:50 PM
Occam's Razor for this would be the rumors just spread quickly as rumors are oft to do...I dont see any evidence or reason for Lanfear or anyone else artificially spreading the rumors.
Dane Bornhold and Padan Fain would have needed to spread the news -- via rumor or via more coneventional and accurate media -- in order to accomplish their goal of causing Rand, and Perrin to come to the defense of the Two Rivers.

To that end, I consider it most likely that the rumors originated in Amador when Fain and Bornhold departed for the two rivers.

I can see any number of reason and/or suspects who might have deseminated the Rumor directly in Tear to make sure one or more of the Three Amigos heard it in a timely manner, but I cannot see any rhyme or reason for the rumor to ORIGINATE in Tear. There simply isn't anyone with a pressing reason to attempt to divert Rand to The Two Rivers, which is "Ordeith's" stated reason for campaign -- "there is a place that the Dragon Reborn must defend," OWTTE.

Davian93
06-24-2011, 12:00 PM
Dane Bornhold and Padan Fain would have needed to spread the news -- via rumor or via more coneventional and accurate media -- in order to accomplish their goal of causing Rand, and Perrin to come to the defense of the Two Rivers.

To that end, I consider it most likely that the rumors originated in Amador when Fain and Bornhold departed for the two rivers.

I can see any number of reason and/or suspects who might have deseminated the Rumor directly in Tear to make sure one or more of the Three Amigos heard it in a timely manner, but I cannot see any rhyme or reason for the rumor to ORIGINATE in Tear. There simply isn't anyone with a pressing reason to attempt to divert Rand to The Two Rivers, which is "Ordeith's" stated reason for campaign -- "there is a place that the Dragon Reborn must defend," OWTTE.

I agree...and there is PLENTY of time for the rumors to have reached Tear from Amador as I'm sure the Children didn't take a very direct route as they had to go around the Forest of Shadows to get to Taren Ferry.

Zombie Sammael
06-24-2011, 12:13 PM
Occam's Razor for this would be the rumors just spread quickly as rumors are oft to do...I dont see any evidence or reason for Lanfear or anyone else artificially spreading the rumors.

If you read the 13th Depository article posted earlier, you will see there are various reasons why that can't or appears not to be the case. Thus, under Occam's Razor, we have to look elsewhere; several good explanations have been suggested. I personally like the Lanfear one; Moiraine also wanted Rand to go elsewhere than the Aiel waste and sought to push him towards Illian, and there are significant literary parallels between Moiraine and Lanfear.

Terez
06-24-2011, 12:18 PM
The moon by day, and the sun by night.

Toss the dice
06-24-2011, 12:46 PM
Lanfear was interested in both Mat and Perrin, because she knew they were ta'veren and tied to Rand in some way. She was going to be interested in anything or anyone that was tied to him.

That said, I highly doubt Lanfear was involved in any way with the news in the Two Rivers. I can't think of any credible motive and it seems like something she could care less about.

Zombie Sammael
06-24-2011, 01:16 PM
The moon by day, and the sun by night.

Quiet you - I'm much better than I used to be. :P

Ieyasu
06-25-2011, 04:12 PM
The 'agreements and accord' likely had to do with the attack on Taren Ferry, which is what Fain needed the Fade for at that moment. After that, Fain seems to have completely broken the Fade to his will, but we're not sure how, exactly.

I would disagree with this statement. I believe the comment about agreements and accord had more to do with somehow binding the fade to do fain's will in a way that is trust-able to fain. More like a lasting loyalty, than a bind to that specific order. Supplanting Fain as the fades master instead of the Dark One. I tend to think Fain has somehow tapped into the 'chosen mark' power that inherently compels them to obey the chosen... I just dont think it is as instantaneous for fain as it would be for a REAL chosen.

Edit:
While I think it is it more likely tied into Fains ability to sense ppl corrupted by the shadow, I do allow it could be knowledge found by other ppl in the past as well.

Perhaps its a method ardihol had originally found to 'steal' shadowspawn and turn them against their 'spawners' involving whatever process the 'agreements and accords' entail... torture, binding of some sort, whatever...

Not all of Fains powers/knowledge have to be specific to him per se, it could be a matter of something that was discovered in ardihols search for a way to combat the shadow, a way that could work for anyone with the determination and disregard to use such methods.