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The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 09:51 PM
Can we have one of these?
Just post your long shot theories, titles only (don't try to argue them here. A one line description only. This is just to get a feel for what long shot theories there are, and who believes what). Major points for anyone who ends up proven right, by interviews, amol, and the encyclopedia. Bonus points for theories without a shred of evidence proven right.

If an interesting theory shows up a few times but it hasn't been talked about much, we can start some pretty cool new threads.

Some of mine...
1: either the forsaken or the dark prophets were/are held at the towers of midnight.

2: the wolves will be an interworld strike force in the last battle, to stop the dark one breaking free in other worlds.

Frenzy
06-23-2011, 10:24 PM
why did this thread have 5 stars before anyone clicked into it?

FelixPax
06-23-2011, 10:31 PM
why did this thread have 5 stars before anyone clicked into it?

Thread Creator has a high opinion of his own views? ;)


Is it chance that the Unreasoner, claims to be in the same timezone as Utah? Which one scribe, named Brandon Sanderson resides in?

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 10:37 PM
I rated my other thread terrible by accident, so I brought a little balance to the world.

ShadowbaneX
06-23-2011, 10:38 PM
is this what the predictions are for? Try there next time.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 10:44 PM
Move it, or delete it, as it pleases you. I thought it would be fun, and fun here, but I am not a mod, am I?

ShadowbaneX
06-23-2011, 11:22 PM
I'm a mod: I despise fun.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 11:26 PM
I meant more: I'm not a mod, so my word that this thread will be fun and should be in gd isn't law.

sandoz12
06-23-2011, 11:41 PM
One of the Forsaken will return to the light and fight accordingly at the last battle.

Ban al'Tee
06-23-2011, 11:51 PM
OK, so, back on topic, so to speak.

Rand will do whatever he does at TG. Survive it, die at it, die and come back, get ripped from TAR a la Brigitte, whatever... but after it he will be out of the game... alive, dead, kicking back with some 2 Rivers tabac in TAR, but no longer a factor.

So, he will leave a will... or perhaps a sheaf of letters as we have seen from Moiraine and Verin, expressing how he wants the world to unfold in his absence. He will "bequeath" responsibility for the world to Egwene, IIF she unites the white and black towers into some semblance of Aes Sediaism in the AOL. Mat's letter will direct him to unite the Western Seanchan areas with the eastern...uh... Elayneish areas, Perrin will be charged with seeing to the Two Rivers and Tam's retirement while NyNaeve will be directed to found the Rand al'Thor Memorial Hospital for Advanced Healing Research.... etc..

Min will head up the Dragon Bursary committee for the various academies that have been founded while Aviendha will be tasked with re-integrating the Aiel into the Aes Sedai led culture.

BTW, sealing the bore will mask the Source for an age, so the academies are going to be rather crucial. Aes Sedai will be the social workers/politicians of the fourth Age.

It was not the prediction, but it was a prediction.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 12:09 AM
One of the Forsaken will return to the light and fight accordingly at the last battle.

Love it

FelixPax
06-24-2011, 01:24 AM
Love it

One always remained apart of the Light...
One shall turn against the Dark One, Moridin...



Mierin
Moghedien



Two Chosen shall fight for the Light...

Though if one counts Rand as a Chosen...
Remember Rand chose to become one with the Dark Cords in the Void...
Rand possesses the very same direct type of tie to the Dark One, as Chosen...

Thus, three Chosen shall fight for the Light.





For convenience, here's a text chunk of Rand ironically freely choosing to become one of Forsaken:


He had not seen those strange things like black steel wires around Asmodean since leaving the dark place, but he could visualize them even in the Void, place them in his mind around the Forsaken. Tam had taught him the Void as an aid to archery, to be one with the bow, the arrow, the target. He made himself one with those imagined black wires.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 58 "The Traps of Rhuidean" -- Rand point of view; with Asmodean, in Rhuidean fighting.

sandoz12
06-24-2011, 01:40 AM
One never left the Light...
One shall turn against the Dark One, Moridin...



Mierin
Moghedien

I think Moridin or Mierin could well turn. I also I wouldn't be surprised if Grandael pretended to turn to the light now that she is in disfavour with her Great Lord and no doubt she won't appreciate the tender affections of Shaidar Haran. She will go where there is more comfort for her particularly if she thinks Rand looks like winning (she has always been one aware of how powerful and dangerous he is). Perhaps what she offers to the light is healing of Rand's madness.

I think someone high up will definitely turn to the light simply because we have so many times been told (paraphrase - going off memory) "No one can walk in the shadow so long that they cannot return to the light." This Chekhov Gun now needs to be used.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 02:15 AM
I really hope it's moridin. I started a thread for it a little while back, though it looks like it will be mierin.

Oh and...
Thumbs down?

why, oh why, must the mods screw with me...

sandoz12
06-24-2011, 02:24 AM
I really hope it's moridin. I started a thread for it a little while back, though it looks like it will be mierin.

Same have always liked Moridin. Never saw that thread or would have commented on it but maybe it was before I started posting here.

But I also think it would be cool if Grandael came back and healed Rand's madness leaving Nynaeve stunned.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-24-2011, 03:01 AM
I really hope it's moridin. I started a thread for it a little while back, though it looks like it will be mierin.

Oh and...
Thumbs down?

why, oh why, must the mods screw with me...

because rating your own thread 5 stars is what spambots do. Those, and really vain people.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 03:12 AM
Which am I?
You could have just deleted the rating, you didn't have to change the picture... lol.

No hard feelings here. You could just delete the thread if it pleases you, most posts seem to be about that innocent rating.

And to come clean, I rated another one of my threads, the clue one in non-wot.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-24-2011, 03:17 AM
Which am I?you're new.
You could have just deleted the rating, you didn't have to change the picture... lol.

No hard feelings here. You could just delete the thread if it pleases you, most posts seem to be about that innocent rating.

And to come clean, I rated another one of my threads, the clue one in non-wot.

that's the thing about ratings, there's a bug, only one person can rate a thread and the rating can never be erased. That's why it's so annoying when spambots break in, post in a half dozen threads and rate them all excellent. If they're new threads, we can just delete the threads but deleting a post in a real thread doesn't affect the rating.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 03:29 AM
Same have always liked Moridin. Never saw that thread or would have commented on it but maybe it was before I started posting here.

But I also think it would be cool if Grandael came back and healed Rand's madness leaving Nynaeve stunned.

It died pretty fast, but you did comment, the "will moridin pull an ingtar" thread- http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5586

greatwolf
06-24-2011, 07:13 AM
Can we have one of these?
Just post your long shot theories, titles only (don't try to argue them here. A one line description only. This is just to get a feel for what long shot theories there are, and who believes what). Major points for anyone who ends up proven right, by interviews, amol, and the encyclopedia. Bonus points for theories without a shred of evidence proven right.


So many...

Logain being the "one who comes after" probably isn't much of a long shot.

Taimandred turning out to be right would be really long.

the_collective
06-24-2011, 10:53 AM
1) Lews Therin's soul was somehow "stored" (for lack of a better word) within the mountain of Dragonmount until a suitable vessel (i.e. a dead blue-colored baby) happened by.

2) The first "rider in black" Rand sees is the same Shadar Haran 0.5 version that shows up later throughout TEotW, AND it's the SAME Myrrdraal that Fain dominates and kills in TGH, which of course necessitates the DO to create the Shadar Haran we all know and love today (one that I believe to have been Fain-proofed, hence his comparitive lack of freedom to the first model).

I'm sure I'll think of more and I'll number those accordingly...

the_collective
06-24-2011, 11:02 AM
3) The Stone of Tear is the missing chunk from Dragonmount (which previously stored LT's soul, as mentioned in previous post), mentioned in TGS when Rand had his epiphany up there; this made it so that Callandor would only separate itself from the Stone when grasped by LT's soul.

4) Callandor, The Sword That Cannot Be Touched, was designed to be just that - Untouchable. Including by The Dark One. This is why Callandor is so important; in order to make contact with the DO in any way, it must be done with this Sword That Cannot Be Tainted.

Crispin's Crispian
06-24-2011, 11:04 AM
3) The Stone of Tear is the missing chunk from Dragonmount (which previously stored LT's soul, as mentioned in previous post), mentioned in TGS when Rand had his epiphany up there; this made it so that Callandor would only separate itself from the Stone when grasped by LT's soul.


Wow. I... Wow. This is one of the coolest crazy theories I've ever seen.

Zombie Sammael
06-24-2011, 11:23 AM
I like your Shaidar Haran theory (number two), Collective. I've kinda thought of Shaidar Haran as being a little like the Shadow or rather Shadowspawn version of the Dragon for a little while. Perhaps there are dark prophecies that refer to his coming?

the_collective
06-24-2011, 11:29 AM
Yeah - these are all theory nuggets that I've had for a while and I'm doing a reread now to try and confirm them all/come up with new ones. Point being: I've got evidence for them, but not enough to compile into a unified theory that I can post elsewhere on the site just yet. Until then, it's fun to share! :)

Davian93
06-24-2011, 11:59 AM
Wow. I... Wow. This is one of the coolest crazy theories I've ever seen.

Its completely ridiculous but I like it.

the_collective
06-24-2011, 12:02 PM
5) Lanfear died while escaping with Moridin through the Aelfinn doorway that led from the Tower of Ghenji to the Stone of Tear. When they arrived in the storeroom in Tear, she set off the wards Rand had previously set there, which killed her outright. Moridin survived this due to his connection with Rand (the ward can't tell the difference between Moridin and Rand at this point). This also allowed Moridin to put extra warding of his own around Callandor (which Narishma later found).

Zombie Sammael
06-24-2011, 12:04 PM
5) Lanfear died while escaping with Moridin through the Aelfinn doorway that led from the Tower of Ghenji to the Stone of Tear. When they arrived in the storeroom in Tear, she set off the wards Rand had previously set there, which killed her outright. Moridin survived this due to his connection with Rand (the ward can't tell the difference between Moridin and Rand at this point). This also allowed Moridin to put extra warding of his own around Callandor (which Narishma later found).

That... makes a hell of a lot of sense.:eek:

Terez
06-24-2011, 12:12 PM
5) Lanfear died while escaping with Moridin through the Aelfinn doorway that led from the Tower of Ghenji to the Stone of Tear. When they arrived in the storeroom in Tear, she set off the wards Rand had previously set there, which killed her outright. Moridin survived this due to his connection with Rand (the ward can't tell the difference between Moridin and Rand at this point). This also allowed Moridin to put extra warding of his own around Callandor (which Narishma later found).
I believe this was my theory; I seem to remember having worked the idea our right after TOM was released, but in any case I wrote about it here (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_1012f9qh5kf8&revision=_latest).

the_collective
06-24-2011, 12:15 PM
Its completely ridiculous but I like it.

Can you think of a better reason for Dark One to HATE Fain so personally?

Terez
06-24-2011, 12:16 PM
Can you think of a better reason for Dark One to HATE Fain so personally?
I doubt that anyone else conditioned by any sort of process at Shayol Ghul itself has ever managed to go renegade. Seems a good enough reason to me.

Crispin's Crispian
06-24-2011, 12:23 PM
Can you think of a better reason for Dark One to HATE Fain so personally?

Since Dav quoted me, I'll assume he was talking about the Stone of Tear theory. It is completely ridiculous to think that the Stone was actually part of Dragonmount and that somehow part of Lews Therin's soul was trapped inside of it. Completely ridiculous, yet it makes sense in an odd way and is totally an awesome idea.

the_collective
06-24-2011, 12:24 PM
I believe this was my theory; I seem to remember having worked the idea our right after TOM was released, but in any case I wrote about it here (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_1012f9qh5kf8&revision=_latest).

You certainly did, didn't you? I retract any claim to such an idea, effective immediately. Good idea, Terez ;) I'll admit that it's possible I got the idea from you in the first place, as I'm sure I've read that write-up you did (I'm a big fan of your work, Terez).

Davian93
06-24-2011, 12:29 PM
Since Dav quoted me, I'll assume he was talking about the Stone of Tear theory. It is completely ridiculous to think that the Stone was actually part of Dragonmount and that somehow part of Lews Therin's soul was trapped inside of it. Completely ridiculous, yet it makes sense in an odd way and is totally an awesome idea.

Yup...that was the one I was referencing.

Terez
06-24-2011, 12:30 PM
You certainly did, didn't you? I retract any claim to such an idea, effective immediately. Good idea, Terez ;) I'll admit that it's possible I got the idea from you in the first place, as I'm sure I've read that write-up you did (I'm a big fan of your work, Terez).
Cool, I'm glad you like it. Sorry I'm lazy and haven't written more; I have a billion ideas and no initiative. But I recall the idea having been proliferated quite a bit at Dragonmount - as in, I took a break from posting there and came back to find people talking about it here and there. Seems to be a popular idea, with eloquent explanations for many things, but I'm still not all that sure on the details; it could have gone down in various ways. The reason I felt compelled by the idea is that the Callandor mystery remains unsolved, and the Tear doorway looks like the closest thing to a hint we've gotten about it. The timing fits, and the other clues we have seem purposeful in the context. Also, the link between Rand and Moridin seems a good explanation for how the ward on Callandor could have been compromised.

the_collective
06-24-2011, 12:31 PM
Since Dav quoted me, I'll assume he was talking about the Stone of Tear theory.

You're right, of course. I thought Dav was talking about Zombie Sammael's comment. That's my bad.

Zombie Sammael
06-24-2011, 01:22 PM
Okay, this is going to be my big post re-read theory post with all the evidence and all, but since we're not (necessarily) required to give evidence in this thread, here goes:

Rand/LTT is able to channel the TP because he was healed using it in TEOTW.

The Angry Druid
06-24-2011, 01:39 PM
OK, here I go.

1) A Memory of Light: one of the Forsaken will switch/play a huge role in the Lights victory. I think it's Lanfear, could be Ishy. Basis: Title of the book and the Graendal POV from ToM "Writings."

2) The 13 trick will be seen/proven. In both directions.

3) Taim is Moridin.

the_collective
06-24-2011, 01:48 PM
Rand/LTT is able to channel the TP because he was healed using it in TEOTW.

Excellent. I like it a lot. This especially fits in with BS's insistence that Shadar Logoth Balefire streams MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE BEEN what created the link in the first place. It fits in quite well with my LT's soul never left the mortal plane, but rather stayed at Dragonmount theory.

Terez
06-24-2011, 02:17 PM
That theory in itself is a very old one; we had a guy named Sodas who used to argue for it a lot back in the day. And someone else. 4A? I don't remember. Ohh, I remember now...it was Vardene, who even argued that Lews Therin never actually died at all. (But somehow his soul was still trapped at Dragonmount without a body.)

the_collective
06-24-2011, 02:35 PM
That theory in itself is a very old one; we had a guy named Sodas who used to argue for it a lot back in the day. And someone else. 4A? I don't remember. Ohh, I remember now...it was Vardene, who even argued that Lews Therin never actually died at all. (But somehow his soul was still trapped at Dragonmount without a body.)

I really don't see how this is not intuitively obvious to everyone here that has a good understanding of WoT cosmology with regard to what RJ/BS/TJ have said on the subject.

In this instance, there is no way that LT/Rand could have any access to first-hand memories that LT experienced. While I'll admit there are a number of small things - particularly in the early books - that almost "tickled" memory of a likely-reborn character such as Mat, Perrin and/or Egwene, the only other characters with first-hand memories from previous lives are:

The reincarnated Chosen (who still have their memories/strength in Power, etc from having been snatched by the DO before their soul got "cleansed" of all this inherited stuff a given soul is assigned to when it's reincarnated),

Mat (who only got it from the Finns - despite his blurting the Old Tongue in TEotW - again, a "tickled" memory),

Birgitte (who was ripped from T'a'r, and whose memories are degenerating now that she's no longer IN T'a'r),

and LT/Rand.

Now, you can believe if you want to that LT/Rand's epiphany is another example of a PLE.

I think it's obvious that LT's soul never left the mortal plane to be "cleansed" in the normal way souls are; there's so much evidence of this (in my own mind) that it's pointless to try to show it all to someone that dismisses this idea out of hand (and I would imagine this to include most of you reading this). This is why I have not yet created such a theory. I do plan to do so (even though I'm not the originator of the idea, apparently), however, in spite of all this because I truly believe its (approximate) accuracy; it'll just take a good bit of time...

Frankly, if it weren't for the fact that this thread is specifically for those theories that *currently* lack evidence, I'd never have posted this idea in the first place. So, Kudos to The Unreasoner on that one.

Terez
06-24-2011, 02:57 PM
I really don't see how this is not intuitively obvious to everyone here that has a good understanding of WoT cosmology with regard to what RJ/BS/TJ have said on the subject.

In this instance, there is no way that LT/Rand could have any access to first-hand memories that LT experienced.
Obviously there is some way. But if Lews Therin's soul was hanging out on Dragonmount, and was stuffed into a baby's body, then I don't see how that gives Rand any more access to those memories than he would have had otherwise. A soul is a soul. Obviously he wasn't fully mature from birth.

Now, you can believe if you want to that LT/Rand's epiphany is another example of a PLE.
I don't. I believe there is a mechanism by which he gained the memories - I just don't believe we know what it is, and the Dragonmount theory has a few logical holes in it, aside from being unnecessary to explain the memories.

I think it's obvious that LT's soul never left the mortal plane to be "cleansed" in the normal way souls are; there's so much evidence of this (in my own mind) that it's pointless to try to show it all to someone that dismisses this idea out of hand
Well, that's convenient isn't it? ;)

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 03:09 PM
This is the point of the thread. Theories that for whatever reason will not get their own thread can be posted here.

For the dm theory, does it cover mad ltt? Or maybe he's just grief stricken.

I like the theory. Wasn't the first time rand heard the voice in the stone after taking Callandor, when the trollocs attacked? Maybe the memories were held by the part of ltt in the stone.

Not saying I believe it, but it plays.

Zombie Sammael
06-24-2011, 03:31 PM
This is the point of the thread. Theories that for whatever reason will not get their own thread can be posted here.

For the dm theory, does it cover mad ltt? Or maybe he's just grief stricken.

I like the theory. Wasn't the first time rand heard the voice in the stone after taking Callandor, when the trollocs attacked? Maybe the memories were held by the part of ltt in the stone.

Not saying I believe it, but it plays.

There was a significant period throughout TSR and even the early part of TFOH where Rand was having memories and recollections but not necessarily hearing voices as such. He kept repressing the memories and insisting he was Rand al'Thor not Lews Therin. It seems fairly obvious to me that this, couple with the taint obviously and the tremendous pressure he was under, led to the psychological split in his brain and created the "mad Lews Therin" personality. It was his own action in repressing his past life memories that led to Lews Therin. I strongly believe this is what happens and I think if you go back and read those two books closely you can see the process happening. At the start of TSR he is getting the odd AOL-memory; by the end of TFOH he is full-on hearing Lews Therin talking in his head.

the_collective
06-24-2011, 03:42 PM
Obviously there is some way. But if Lews Therin's soul was hanging out on Dragonmount, and was stuffed into a baby's body, then I don't see how that gives Rand any more access to those memories than he would have had otherwise. A soul is a soul. Obviously he wasn't fully mature from birth.

I'm arguing that the memories have been there this entire time. The "Rand" personality grew up in the care of Tam/Kari and has 16-18 years of memories as such by the time these books begin. There are a number of examples I can think of that illustrate the affinities and/or traits of LT that can be observed in Rand's behavior in TEotW alone, not even counting later books; but obviously you need me to compile all these for review. Done. Just give me time to do it.

I don't. I believe there is a mechanism by which he gained the memories - I just don't believe we know what it is, and the Dragonmount theory has a few logical holes in it, aside from being unnecessary to explain the memories.

Ultimately the re-integration was just that: taking two sets of seemingly independent memories (note that the memories are the only real difference between Rand and LT - not so with unconscious traits such as mannerisms) and making the mind accept both as "real" (rather than denying the LT set as Rand does from "Day 1" of the WoT Chronology all the way to the "epiphany"). RJ went through great pains in the Dragonmount prologue (which is just a few pages long) to illustrate LT's tendency to deny that which he doesn't want to think about. Rand has this same trait in spades.

Well, that's convenient isn't it? ;)

Yes, it's convenient in every sense of the word (your point is taken and no offense was taken). Most of all, for brevity - especially in the spirit of this particular thread, which was stated in the very first post. As I've said I can and WILL expand upon these ideas. Mark my words, Terez...

OH! That reminds me: I looked into commenting on some theories that people already have up on the site, but it wouldn't let me sign in using this name. Am I to understand that I must create a separate ID/Password for the actual Theoryland web site (as opposed to the forums)? I'm very new to all this forum-posting business, in case you couldn't tell..

Weird Harold
06-24-2011, 03:55 PM
I really don't see how this is not intuitively obvious to everyone here that has a good understanding of WoT cosmology with regard to what RJ/BS/TJ have said on the subject.

Sadly for those of us who supported the Bound in Dragonmount theory or some variant of it, RJ was asked when a child recieves its soul; the anwer was either conception or viability, but definitely not "At Birth" which is the only way the bound in dragonmount theory could be supported.

the_collective
06-24-2011, 04:12 PM
RJ was asked when a child recieves its soul; the anwer was either conception or viability

First off, I fail to see how "conception" and "viability" can both be used to describe the same phenomena. "Conception" is when the zygote first starts growing on the uterine walls, while "viability" is when the fully grown babe takes its very first breath - a life form can't be said to be "viable" until it's capable of existing independent of the womb, in the real world. A still-born baby is not under ANY definition "viable".

Secondly, under that same definition of "viability" just given, this blue baby (see: 'soulless vessel' if both what RJ said AND this definition of "viability" are mutually true) never had a soul to begin with.

I appreciate the comment, but fail to see how this invalidates the argument. If anything, it confuses the issue by saying that the soul enters the body at the very moment it becomes a multicellular organism, while also saying that it gets its soul the moment it is able to exist outside of the womb.

Weird Harold
06-24-2011, 04:25 PM
First off, I fail to see how "conception" and "viability" can both be used to describe the same phenomena.

You misunderstand. I don't recall which of those two was the answer and I don't feel like crashing my system trying to navigate google docs into Terez' interview database. (google docs and Win98 aren't compatible.)

The point is, that in order for Rand to recieve a soul at Dragonmount, the answer would have to be "at Birth" and it was not; Rand already had LTT's soul when his mother arrived at Dragonmount to give birth.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 04:27 PM
I agree that this at least doesn't invalidate the theory. Part of his soul was in the stone of tear, no reason it couldn't be in three places, or more accurately, one/no place, but 'accessible' from three locations.
It's a fun theory.

Weird Harold
06-24-2011, 04:37 PM
I agree that this at least doesn't invalidate the theory. Part of his soul was in the stone of tear, no reason it couldn't be in three places, or more accurately, one/no place, but 'accessible' from three locations.
It's a fun theory.
There is no evidence or indication that souls in the WOT can be split or parceled out. There's also no evidence that Rand received a temporary soul and then was possessed by LTT's soul which is the only way he could have received LTT's soul when he was born on Dragonmount.

Zombie Sammael
06-24-2011, 04:38 PM
What about Tel'aran'rhiod? The Dragon is a horny hero, so wouldn't his soul reside in TAR between rebirths (even if the specific rebirth according to prophecy is unique to him)?

Note that I am merely asking the question here: one might like to consider TAR and Heroes from both sides of the argument.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 04:45 PM
3. The battle of caemlyn is the last battle, at least as far as battlefields go, along with tarwins gap

4. Dobraine will die at the gap, and Bashere at caemlyn

5. The two rivers will split from andor but remain allied, the red eagle and white lion together in the pact of the griffin.

6. Beslan and mat will commandeer seanchan forces for the last battle

7. Bryne will survive the last battle, that smug little bastard...

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 04:49 PM
There is no evidence or indication that souls in the WOT can be split or parceled out. There's also no evidence that Rand received a temporary soul and then was possessed by LTT's soul which is the only way he could have received LTT's soul when he was born on Dragonmount.

I didn't say I believed it. I just think it's an entertaining theory. And if the soul isn't split, and is in one 'place' beyond the standard world, but is present (similar to the bore) at dm, the stone, and the fetus...well it seems possible.

nameless
06-24-2011, 04:52 PM
I really don't see how this is not intuitively obvious to everyone here that has a good understanding of WoT cosmology with regard to what RJ/BS/TJ have said on the subject.

In this instance, there is no way that LT/Rand could have any access to first-hand memories that LT experienced. While I'll admit there are a number of small things - particularly in the early books - that almost "tickled" memory of a likely-reborn character such as Mat, Perrin and/or Egwene, the only other characters with first-hand memories from previous lives are:

The reincarnated Chosen (who still have their memories/strength in Power, etc from having been snatched by the DO before their soul got "cleansed" of all this inherited stuff a given soul is assigned to when it's reincarnated),

Mat (who only got it from the Finns - despite his blurting the Old Tongue in TEotW - again, a "tickled" memory),

Birgitte (who was ripped from T'a'r, and whose memories are degenerating now that she's no longer IN T'a'r),

and LT/Rand.

You left out Graendal's past-life regression patients from the Age of Legends.

the_collective
06-24-2011, 05:10 PM
The point is, that in order for Rand to recieve a soul at Dragonmount, the answer would have to be "at Birth" and it was not; Rand already had LTT's soul when his mother arrived at Dragonmount to give birth.

No, I understand you quite well, but I respectfully disagree that the only answer RJ could have given here, while still maintaining the "viability" of my theory (see what I did there? ;)), is "at birth."

At the risk of repeating myself, if the answer to said question was "viability" as you have proposed might be the word used, then the theory still works because a still-born baby never reached the level of "viable" in any sense of the word.

The reason I keep saying "still-born" or "dead" baby here is that it was blue-colored in Tam's recollection of the event. Sure, it was crying, because this is just after the LT soul had entered the body in question. The body was already blue (with asphyxiation) by this point. This is flat impossible (see: immaculate conception for an allegory): a baby with blue-colored skin (this is a body that has endured asphyxiation long enough to cause irreversible brain death) crying in the snow.

The cold weather he'd found the baby in would not be responsible for "blue" coloring; if the weather had affected the body in an extreme way, parts of the body - particularly the digits - would've been black and rotted-looking, while the rest (the body's core, if you will) would be bright red with irritation.

It sounds like we could argue this all day to no avail. As I've said, I'm gonna put a theory together with lots of quotes and things. It would be useful to have this RJ quote you're referring to, but I don't remember having read such a quote. I'll have to find it for this theory I'm working on, though, certainly...

Weiramon
06-24-2011, 05:18 PM
3. The battle of caemlyn is the last battle, at least as far as battlefield go, along with tarwins gap

4. Dobraine will die at the gap, and Bashere at caemlyn

5. The two rivers will split from andor but remain allied, the red eagle and white lion together in the pact of the griffin.

6. Beslan and mat will commandeer seanchan forces for the last battle

7. Bryne will survive the last battle, that smug little bastard...

Burn me if some commoner-made-into-a-general doesn't mount some "dragons" onto those abominations of horseless wagons, and then lead them into battle.

Of course, one cavalry charge and those contraptions would be vanquished from the field of battle.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 05:20 PM
No, I understand you quite well, but I respectfully disagree that the only answer RJ could have given here, while still maintaining the "viability" of my theory (see what I did there? ;)), is "at birth."

At the risk of repeating myself, if the answer to said question was "viability" as you have proposed might be the word used, then the theory still works because a still-born baby never reached the level of "viable" in any sense of the word.

The reason I keep saying "still-born" or "dead" baby here is that it was blue-colored in Tam's recollection of the event. Sure, it was crying, because this is just after the LT soul had entered the body in question. The body was already blue (with asphyxiation) by this point. This is flat impossible (see: immaculate conception for an allegory): a baby with blue-colored skin (this is a body that has endured asphyxiation long enough to cause irreversible brain death) crying in the snow.

The cold weather he'd found the baby in would not be responsible for "blue" coloring; if the weather had affected the body in an extreme way, parts of the body - particularly the digits - would've been black and rotted-looking, while the rest (the body's core, if you will) would be bright red with irritation.

It sounds like we could argue this all day to no avail. As I've said, I'm gonna put a theory together with lots of quotes and things. It would be useful to have this RJ quote you're referring to, but I don't remember having read such a quote. I'll have to find it for this theory I'm working on, though, certainly...The immaculate conception refers to Mary.
And I think arguing along this line is futile, and largely semantics. Your theory had merit, but you will have a hard time showing it along that line. Not that you have to, at least not here.

8. Galgan will be killed by Beslan when galgan attempts to assassinate Tuon.

Kimon
06-24-2011, 05:36 PM
No, I understand you quite well, but I respectfully disagree that the only answer RJ could have given here, while still maintaining the "viability" of my theory (see what I did there? ;)), is "at birth."

At the risk of repeating myself, if the answer to said question was "viability" as you have proposed might be the word used, then the theory still works because a still-born baby never reached the level of "viable" in any sense of the word.

The reason I keep saying "still-born" or "dead" baby here is that it was blue-colored in Tam's recollection of the event. Sure, it was crying, because this is just after the LT soul had entered the body in question. The body was already blue (with asphyxiation) by this point. This is flat impossible (see: immaculate conception for an allegory): a baby with blue-colored skin (this is a body that has endured asphyxiation long enough to cause irreversible brain death) crying in the snow.

The cold weather he'd found the baby in would not be responsible for "blue" coloring; if the weather had affected the body in an extreme way, parts of the body - particularly the digits - would've been black and rotted-looking, while the rest (the body's core, if you will) would be bright red with irritation.

It sounds like we could argue this all day to no avail. As I've said, I'm gonna put a theory together with lots of quotes and things. It would be useful to have this RJ quote you're referring to, but I don't remember having read such a quote. I'll have to find it for this theory I'm working on, though, certainly...

Here's the RJ Quote that WH referenced:

H: When a soul is reborn, at what point does it enter the body?
RJ: Hmm . . . Id have to say as a fetus. When the body becomes capable of sustaining life.
H: Ok. In The Eye of the World, Thom said that the dead can take over a living body. If this happened, what would happen to the original soul?
RJ: Read and find out.

Crispin's Crispian
06-24-2011, 05:36 PM
What about Tel'aran'rhiod? The Dragon is a horny hero, so wouldn't his soul reside in TAR between rebirths (even if the specific rebirth according to prophecy is unique to him)?

Note that I am merely asking the question here: one might like to consider TAR and Heroes from both sides of the argument.
First, yes. We do have some circumstantial evidence that Lews Therin's soul existed in Tel'aran'rhiod at some point, as Artur Hawkwing remembers Rand as such. If Lews Therin's soul never returned to TAR, Hawkwing wouldn't know him as Lews Therin.

No, I understand you quite well, but I respectfully disagree that the only answer RJ could have given here, while still maintaining the "viability" of my theory (see what I did there? ), is "at birth."

Second, viability is a specific obstetric term, and I think it's best to assume RJ was using it that way. In that sense, viability simply refers to the point during pregnancy when a fetus can potentially survive outside of its mother. According to what I've read, an otherwise healthy fetus is considered viable sometime between the 24th and 27th week of pregnancy, which is roughly 13-15 weeks before birth. So unless Rand's mom was camping out at Dragonmount for a long, long time, there's not really any mechanism for LTT's wandering soul to get in there.

The cold weather he'd found the baby in would not be responsible for "blue" coloring; if the weather had affected the body in an extreme way, parts of the body - particularly the digits - would've been black and rotted-looking, while the rest (the body's core, if you will) would be bright red with irritation.

Third, I've seen my own son turn slightly blue after swimming in an 83-degree pool (he was perfectly fine). It's very possible for people to turn a tinge of blue if they are very cold, or if their circulation is poor. Blackness and rotting are signs of advanced frostbite, and are probably preceded by blue digits and lips.

Weird Harold
06-24-2011, 05:55 PM
It sounds like we could argue this all day to no avail. As I've said, I'm gonna put a theory together with lots of quotes and things. It would be useful to have this RJ quote you're referring to, but I don't remember having read such a quote. I'll have to find it for this theory I'm working on, though, certainly...

Kimon kindly provided it:

H: When a soul is reborn, at what point does it enter the body?
RJ: Hmm . . . Id have to say as a fetus. When the body becomes capable of sustaining life.
H: Ok. In The Eye of the World, Thom said that the dead can take over a living body. If this happened, what would happen to the original soul?
RJ: Read and find out.

The reason that there isn't an active theory about LTT's soul being trapped in Dragonmount awaiting Rand's birth is because that interview quote killed it years ago -- not that it was ever a real possibility in the first place.

At Falme, Hawkwing's recognition of Rand as LTT pretty much firmly established the Soul's location between LTT's suicide and Rand's birth as "Valhalla" feasting with all the other Heros of the Horn.

the_collective
06-24-2011, 06:25 PM
OK. I have one final question before I drop the LT's soul in Dragonmount subject on this thread (and start composing an actual theory); has the subject of the Dragon's personal and unique ability to pull Callandor from the Stone ever been addressed in any way?

To wit:
-Why is Rand's soul the only one that can take it (as Be'lal, et al. would have done so had they been able to)?
-Are there wards in place to prevent anyone else from doing so? (I don't ever remember any mention from any channeler male OR female during all the T'a'r visits/actual scenes amongst those redstone columns having seen any - not that there were very many scenes there before the grasping itself, granted)
-If there are wards, how could they possibly have been attuned to LT's soul if neither the Stone nor Callandor existed until after LT had left the face of the Earth? (is there any Eaux de Dragon, perhaps?)

Has no one ever asked these questions before? I've certainly never seen any documented question/answer sessions regarding any of this, but I didn't pick up the series til '02 or so - well after hoopla about TDR had come and gone - and I haven't seen any archives that go back into the 90s much at all...

Terez
06-24-2011, 06:33 PM
It's been discussed, but most people don't make it out to be a great mystery, not any more than the Aiel ter'angreal's ability to recognize souls. Also, RJ once said explicitly that souls can't be split.

Weird Harold
06-24-2011, 06:49 PM
-Why is Rand's soul the only one that can take it (as Be'lal, et al. would have done so had they been able to)?

We don't know that Rand's soul was the controlling key to taking Callandor. In fact, we don't know what the key to the wards actually was.

The predominant theory is that the wards were keyed to either Rand's genetics or his past-life memories -- much as Paiter's test was based on whether Rand remembered a specific individual from the AOL.

Rand is quite probably the only half-breed Aiel channeler of Saidin ever to enter the Stone of Tear; that alone would be a near-certainty that the wards could be keyed to, or it could have been only one component of a combination of circumstances that would allow Rand, and only Rand, to take up Callandor but only at the Foretold Moment. It is possible that if the entire cast/cosmic algnment conditions hadn't been met, Rand would have fried just as toasty as Be'lal or Ba'alzamon.

-Are there wards in place to prevent anyone else from doing so? (I don't ever remember any mention from any channeler male OR female during all the T'a'r visits/actual scenes amongst those redstone columns having seen any - not that there were very many scenes there before the grasping itself, granted)

Silvie (Lanfear) told Egwene about the wards when they met in T'A'R.

ETA:
"Callandor, my Lady. You know that, don't you? The Sword That Cannot Be Touched." Abruptly she swung her stick behind her; a foot from the sword, the stick stopped with a dull thwack and bounded back. Silvie grinned wider. "The Sword That Is Not a Sword, though there's precious few knows what it is. But none can touch it save one. They saw to that, who put it here. The Dragon Reborn will hold Callandor one day, and prove to the world he's the Dragon by doing it. The first proof, anyway. Lews Therin come back for all the world to see, and grovel before. Ah, the High Lords don't like having it here. They like nothing to do with the Power. They'd rid themselves of it, if they could. If they could. I suppose there's others would take it, if they could. What wouldn't one of the Forsaken give, to hold Callandor?"

Egwene stared at the sparkling sword. If the Prophecies of the Dragon were true, if Rand was the Dragon as Moiraine claimed, he would wield it one day, though from the rest of what she knew of the Prophecies concerning Callandor, she could not see how it could ever come to be. But if there's a way to take it, maybe the Black Ajah knows how. If they know it, I can figure it out.

Cautiously, she reached out with the Power, probing at whatever held and shielded the sword. Her probe touched something and stopped. She could sense which of the Five Powers had been used here. Air, and Fire, and Spirit. She could trace the intricate weave made by saidar, set with a strength that amazed her. There were gaps in that weave, spaces where her probe should slide through. When she tried, it was like fighting the strongest part of the weave head on. It hit her then, what she was trying to force a way through, and she let her probe vanish. Half that wall had been woven using saidar; the other half, the part she could not sense or touch, had been made with saidin. That was not it, exactly the wall was all of one piece but it was close enough. A stone wall stops a blind woman as surely as one who can see it.

-If there are wards, how could they possibly have been attuned to LT's soul if neither the Stone nor Callandor existed until after LT had left the face of the Earth? (is there any Eaux de Dragon, perhaps?)

The wards were set by the Aes Sedai Rand saw in his trip through the glass columns; The EoTW, the Stone of Tear, and the wards on Callandor weree constructed according to Foretellings which provided instructions on what to do, but possibly without information on why or how they worked. Those who set the wards didn't need to know who or what they were keying the wards to, the just need to set them exactly according to instructions.

Has no one ever asked these questions before? I've certainly never seen any documented question/answer sessions regarding any of this, ...

I don't know of any questions to RJ or BS regarding how the wards were keyed. The questions have been asked repeatedly by fans of fans and several discussions can be found in Theoryland's archives -- both at ezBoard/Yucky and in the vbulletin archives.

Davian93
06-24-2011, 07:02 PM
IMHO, the Dragonmount soul theory is one of the dumber ones I've ever heard based on the evidence available. It makes zero sense and as WH has shown, direct RJ quotes contradict its viability.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 07:13 PM
I don't believe it either, but what part of wh are you talking about?

Weird Harold
06-24-2011, 07:18 PM
I don't believe it either, but what part of wh are you talking about?
Either my brain or my sometimes stupid and rebellious fingers. :D

Terez
06-24-2011, 07:20 PM
WH=Weird Harold.

FelixPax
06-24-2011, 07:46 PM
8. Galgan will be killed by Beslan when galgan attempts to assassinate Tuon.

Doubtful, as Seeker Mor (Hand) does not work for Galgan, but for High Lord Turak of House Aladon (dead now).


Galgan is a political balancer, more similar and in parallel to one of South Carolina's legendary real world politicians: James Strom Thurmond.


If General Galgan is James Strom Thurmond, who plays Harry S Truman role in WoT?

Fortuona.

Terez
06-24-2011, 08:16 PM
If General Galgan is James Strom Thurmond, who plays Harry S Truman role in WoT?

Fortuona.
Selucia, actually.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 08:17 PM
WH=Weird Harold.

Ah.

And Tuon is Truman?
Should randland stock up potassium iodide? Or whatever is used for radiation poisoning?

the_collective
06-24-2011, 08:35 PM
Thanks for all the quotes, everyone. I could argue on, but I'll drop it til I get something solid.

If the soul is determined at the fetal stage, then I must acquiesce to the Creator on the Dragonmount-held-the-soul-of-LT bit of my theories.

It does seem that the Stone itself was taken from Dragonmount, though - is that the general consensus? I saw no objection to that idea, at least. Though, come to think on it, that may have been out of apathy toward such a mundane topic.

I maintain that the origin of the Stone is not mundane, but to each their own. There's really nothing solid to say one way or another.

Terez
06-24-2011, 08:46 PM
The problem with the Stone-comes-from-Dragonmount theory is that it's just supposition without any real evidence for it. It's a nice idea, but not necessary, since Dragonmount is a volcano and it wouldn't be all that surprising to learn that it erupted explosively during the Breaking.

the_collective
06-24-2011, 08:50 PM
Silvie (Lanfear) told Egwene about the wards when they met in T'A'R.

Thank you WH for pointing this out. I have been rereading, but very slowly this time (as I get sidetracked in thought a lot and miss things) and I haven't gotten through TEotW yet in that task. I'd forgotten the wards were included as a subject in that conversation, and I thank you for providing the lengthy passage.

the_collective
06-24-2011, 08:56 PM
It's a nice idea, but not necessary

I take it you'd say the same of the Taim's -Black-Stone-is-from-Shayul-Ghul theory I've heard bandied about? I thought if that were true, there'd be a certain harmony to the whole idea. Oh well. :)

Terez
06-24-2011, 08:59 PM
I take it you'd say the same of the Taim's -Black-Stone-is-from-Shayul-Ghul theory I've heard bandied about? I thought if that were true, there'd be a certain harmony to the whole idea. Oh well. :)
That one's mine, too. I suspect you knew that. It's not one of those theories I take seriously, though - just an idea I thought worth throwing out there. Taim's palace might also be built from Shayol Ghul rock. There's a little more to it than the Stone theory, though - namely that the Shadow might find it a tactical advantage to have alternate places where Rand might be killed.

Davian93
06-24-2011, 09:07 PM
The problem with the Stone-comes-from-Dragonmount theory is that it's just supposition without any real evidence for it. It's a nice idea, but not necessary, since Dragonmount is a volcano and it wouldn't be all that surprising to learn that it erupted explosively during the Breaking.

Its pretty much a guarantee that it erupted explosively during the Breaking given that LTT probably tunneled down to the planet's mantle to hit make a magma seep like that.

Terez
06-24-2011, 09:22 PM
Its pretty much a guarantee that it erupted explosively during the Breaking given that LTT probably tunneled down to the planet's mantle to hit make a magma seep like that.
Yeah, the main question is why it hasn't erupted since. But I was going on the logic that the geology was in general upheaval at the time.

Davian93
06-24-2011, 09:25 PM
Yeah, the main question is why it hasn't erupted since. But I was going on the logic that the geology was in general upheaval at the time.

Well, 3500 years isn't all that long in volcanic time...and perhaps it's posed to erupt very shortly when Rand dies.

Did I ever tell you about Terez's awesome Tar Valon is Toast theory based on that fact? It's really quite brilliant...and original I might add. Terez is my hero.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 10:27 PM
Since the island itself was made with the same explosion that created dragonmount it seems like anyone who thought about it would realize tar valon is within a blast radius.

Didn't a resident of tar valon practically dream about tar valon suffering damage from volcano?

Terez
06-24-2011, 10:39 PM
Yes, and it's foreshadowed several times in the series that it will erupt (again) eventually. Now(ish) seems a good time. Vandene even compared Lan to Dragonmount in TGH, saying he was rumbling like Dragonmount, and that sooner or later he would blow.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 10:42 PM
Great symbolism if it does right when nynaeve brings lan back to life.

Weird Harold
06-24-2011, 11:06 PM
It does seem that the Stone itself was taken from Dragonmount, though - is that the general consensus? I saw no objection to that idea, at least.

The 'Stone of Tear' is massive fortress of Stone, constructed with the aid of the OP:

Stone of Tear

A great fortress in Tear, said to have been made with the One Power soon after the Breaking of the World. The eastern gate is the Dragonwall Gate. The Stone of Tear is a single piece of stone covering a square mile from the bank of the River Erinin into the heart of the city. It was built by Aes Sedai at the end of the Breaking. (Glossaries)

"Built" suggests that it is asingle piece of stone because the individual blocks were welded and strengthened by the OP rather than the fortress being carved out of a literal single stone cube a mile on a side.

Dragonmount is 325 WOT Leagues (1300 WOT/Nautical miles). Even with the OP and a direct river route, moving single piece of stone a mile square isn't believable. I'm sure that there is a quarry much closer to Tear.

A square mile of rock, even if quarried in more manageable pieces should have left a visible scar on Dragonmount. The fact one hasn't been mentioned doesn't mean one doesn't exist, but it probably would have if there were anything important about it.

I can see where a symbolic inlay of stone from Dragonmount in the Heart of the Stone might be workable, but not the entire Stone.

The Unreasoner
06-25-2011, 12:01 AM
I thought along similar lines but I still get a laugh at the image of people going to all the effort.

Weird Harold
06-25-2011, 01:00 AM
I thought along similar lines but I still get a laugh at the image of people going to all the effort.

If it weren't to good a legend to have been forgotten, I would think that raising the entire Stone over night by using a huge mixed circle to raise molten stone and mold it like wet sand into a fantastic, impregnable castle would have been a neat way to build it.

The Unreasoner
06-25-2011, 01:18 AM
Well apparently rock was taken from all over the world to make it, with the power. Something like what Aviendha did at the river could plausibly have been done with the lava, but given what we know about invisible bridges they would have probably needed to shoot a jet up at an angle, and someone could 'catch' it in tear. Or they could have used a relay system.

In any event, a lot of work, a funny image, and I'm pretty sure most volcanic rock is black.

FelixPax
06-25-2011, 02:19 AM
Ah.

And Tuon is Truman?

Yes. Tuon is Harry S Truman, that's my view, as I've previously written about in a long character parallels essay.


Brother Truman was a very famous Mason member (http://www.pagrandlodge.org/mlam/presidents/truman.html), as one fellow Mason and author Robert Jordan surely knew. References to Mason's are found throughout the WoT series, as Jordan once confirmed in a letter to a questioning reader.



I'm curious though why Terez foresees Selucia as a character parallel for Harry S Truman. Seriously, I am curious what aspects of Truman's life experience or situation is in common with the WoT character of Selucia.

FelixPax
06-25-2011, 03:38 AM
Didn't a resident of tar valon practically dream about tar valon suffering damage from volcano?

Thinking of a nightmare scene in ToM book, from Perrin's point of view, yes?


Previous to that ToM book scene--Nynaeve, Elayne once used "Need" in a shared Dream only to find a Tar Valon in utter chaos...



A man with no hands comes running toward them. Rand?
A shared Dream set in the future, it seems.



“It doesn’t matter,” Nynaeve said stoutly. “Nobody in Tar Valon even knows about the World of Dreams. We won’t run into anybody.” Her stomach turned over as a bloody-faced man suddenly appeared, staggering toward them. He had no hands, only spurting stumps.

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 13 "Under the Dust" -- Nynaeve point of view, with Elayne in a shared "Need" directed Dream

Rand is going to lose his remaining hand (prediction). Totally gross.


What is one clue this shared Dream was set in the future?

The "heaps of garbage" in Tar Valon, which finally re-appeared in TGS book, during the siege of the city.



Here's a chunk of the first Tar Valon shared Dream text:

“Put your chin down. Neither will I, if there’s anything we can do about it. We might as well get on with this.” Linking hands with Elayne, Nynaeve closed her eyes. Need. She hoped some part of her had some notion what it was they needed. Maybe nothing would happen. Need. Suddenly everything seemed to slide around her; she felt Tel’aran’rhiod tilt and swoop.


Her eyes sprang open immediately. Each step using need was taken blind, of necessity, and while each took you closer to what you sought, any one could drop you down in a pit of vipers, or a lion disturbed at its kill could bite your leg off.

There were no lions, yet what there was was disturbing. It was bright midday, but that did not bother her; time flowed differently here. She and Elayne were holding hands in a cobblestone street, surrounded by buildings of brick and stone. Elaborate cornices and friezes decorated houses and shops alike. Ornate cupolas decorated tile rooftops, and bridges of stone or wood arched across the street, sometimes three or four stories up. Heaps of garbage, old clothes and broken furniture stood piled on street corners, and rats scurried about by the score, sometimes pausing to chitter fearless challenges at them. People dreaming themselves to the brink of Tel’aran’rhiod flickered in and out of existence. A man fell shrieking from one of the bridges and vanished before he hit the cobblestones. A howling woman in a torn dress ran a dozen paces toward them before she too winked out. Truncated screams and shouts echoed through the streets, and sometimes coarse laughter with a maniacal edge.

“I don’t like this,” Elayne said in a worried tone.

In the distance, a great bone-white shaft reared above the city, far overtopping other towers, many of them linked by bridges that made those where they were seem low. They were in Tar Valon, in the part where Nynaeve had caught a glimpse of Leane last time. Leane had not been very forthcoming about what she had been doing; increasing the awe and legend of the mysterious Aes Sedai, she had claimed with a smile.

“It doesn’t matter,” Nynaeve said stoutly. “Nobody in Tar Valon even knows about the World of Dreams. We won’t run into anybody.” Her stomach turned over as a bloody-faced man suddenly appeared, staggering toward them. He had no hands, only spurting stumps.

“That was not what I meant,” Elayne muttered.

“Let’s be on about it.” Nynaeve closed her eyes. Need.


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 13 "Under the Dust" -- Nynaeve point of view, with Elayne in a shared "Need" directed Dream

Terez
06-25-2011, 10:26 AM
The 'Stone of Tear' is massive fortress of Stone, constructed with the aid of the OP:



"Built" suggests that it is asingle piece of stone because the individual blocks were welded and strengthened by the OP rather than the fortress being carved out of a literal single stone cube a mile on a side.

Dragonmount is 325 WOT Leagues (1300 WOT/Nautical miles). Even with the OP and a direct river route, moving single piece of stone a mile square isn't believable. I'm sure that there is a quarry much closer to Tear.

A square mile of rock, even if quarried in more manageable pieces should have left a visible scar on Dragonmount. The fact one hasn't been mentioned doesn't mean one doesn't exist, but it probably would have if there were anything important about it.

I can see where a symbolic inlay of stone from Dragonmount in the Heart of the Stone might be workable, but not the entire Stone.
Depending on how early in the Breaking it was, they might have still known Traveling. (I thought of the Da'shain, but perhaps they simply didn't know a good place to gate them.)

GonzoTheGreat
06-25-2011, 10:32 AM
Yes. Tuon is Harry S Truman, that's my view, as I've previously written about in a long character parallels essay.Truman was a girl? Well, you live and learn, I suppose.

(I thought of the Da'shain, but perhaps they simply didn't know a good place to gate them.)There was no point to sending them anywhere by gateway anyways, since the whole idea was to get them out of trouble, which could only be achieved by having them avoid trouble, not by parking them in some place where they would think they had to stay.

Zombie Sammael
06-25-2011, 11:02 AM
Truman was a girl? Well, you live and learn, I suppose.


Gonzo, I'm disappointed in you. As one of the board's resident lefty-types, I would have expected you to know that while RJ's world is deeply concerned with a gender binary, character archetypes in both real life and the books are capable of criss-crossing the gender divide. Tsk tsk.

looqas
06-25-2011, 03:19 PM
I bet this has come up. Ain't terribly original.

Rand lost his hand, Mat lost his eye and Perrin will lose his life. That's right. Perrin dies and meets Faile in TAR afterwards. It's even more shocking because there is no prophecies about it that I remember.

Moiraine bonds Thom.

Rand sends Perrin to help Lan.

Kimon
06-25-2011, 03:31 PM
I bet this has come up. Ain't terribly original.

Rand lost his hand, Mat lost his eye and Perrin will lose his life. That's right. Perrin dies and meets Faile in TAR afterwards. It's even more shocking because there is no prophecies about it that I remember.


A nose or an ear would seem to fit the pattern better.

Zombie Sammael
06-25-2011, 04:01 PM
A nose or an ear would seem to fit the pattern better.

Perrin losing an arm would be suitably tragic. One-armed, he could no longer be a blacksmith. It would be a huge loss for him.

Rand al'Fain
06-25-2011, 04:08 PM
Perrin losing an arm would be suitably tragic. One-armed, he could no longer be a blacksmith. It would be a huge loss for him.

No, he loses his hair! Note how often his shaggy hair is reffered to by many other people. He goes completely bald at age 21.

Kimon
06-25-2011, 04:17 PM
Perrin losing an arm would be suitably tragic. One-armed, he could no longer be a blacksmith. It would be a huge loss for him.

I guess, but I'd still say the loss of nose or one (or both) of his ears would be more fitting considering that both of those senses are currently werewolf-enhanced.

FelixPax
06-25-2011, 05:33 PM
I bet this has come up. Ain't terribly original.

Rand sends Perrin to help Lan.

Curious, I thought Thom likely had figured out that Lan & the Malkieri were this Age's re-born "The Last Ride of Buad of Albhain" (tEotW, Ch.17).


If Rand's to ask Perrin for help, how about with the Seanchan? After Fortuona's forces attack Tar Valon again? Ample amount of foreshadowing clues there for it.

FelixPax
06-25-2011, 05:46 PM
No, he loses his hair! Note how often his shaggy hair is reffered to by many other people. He goes completely bald at age 21.

Chuckles... can you picture Elayne, Berelain, Faile shaving off all their hair?

The bald & nude women of power. ;)


What a hair style of Cairhien soldiers & Dobraine?

Heads shaved.

Weird Harold
06-25-2011, 05:51 PM
Depending on how early in the Breaking it was, they might have still known Traveling. (I thought of the Da'shain, but perhaps they simply didn't know a good place to gate them.)
It wouldn't surprise me if the Aes Sedai who built tEoTW and Stone of Tear remembered how to Travel -- it was soon enough after the SASG that there were a fair number of Male Aes Sedai still reasonably sane.

What would surprise me is that they had the resources to gate a square (cubic?) mile of monolithic stone to Tear from anywhere -- i.e. a gateway at least a mile wide and several hundred feet high (however tall the Stone is plus a bit for clearance)

Even then there is the problem of creating the gateway and moving such a huge stone through it in any conventional meaning of "move through." If they could manage a gateway a mile square, they could conceivable open it from under the block of stone (after cutting the sides free) to over the site of the Stone-of-Tear-to-be.

Still, the logistics of moving the Stone of Tear as a single monolithic piece is bound to be something extraordinary and implausibly more complicated than gateing in building materials in more manageable chunks and either welding the together or melting them and pouring them into forms, like concrete.

In fact, the Stone actually sounds more like a concrete bunker than a masonry fortress. Does the WOT still remember how to pour reinforced concrete? Could they mistake poured and reinforced concrete, or the AOL equivalent, for "A Single Stone?"

Jokeslayer
06-25-2011, 06:14 PM
In fact, the Stone actually sounds more like a concrete bunker than a masonry fortress. Does the WOT still remember how to pour reinforced concrete? Could they mistake poured and reinforced concrete, or the AOL equivalent, for "A Single Stone?"

FWIW, WOT Search turned up nothing for "concrete".

Davian93
06-25-2011, 06:17 PM
It wouldn't surprise me if the Aes Sedai who built tEoTW and Stone of Tear remembered how to Travel -- it was soon enough after the SASG that there were a fair number of Male Aes Sedai still reasonably sane.

What would surprise me is that they had the resources to gate a square (cubic?) mile of monolithic stone to Tear from anywhere -- i.e. a gateway at least a mile wide and several hundred feet high (however tall the Stone is plus a bit for clearance)

Even then there is the problem of creating the gateway and moving such a huge stone through it in any conventional meaning of "move through." If they could manage a gateway a mile square, they could conceivable open it from under the block of stone (after cutting the sides free) to over the site of the Stone-of-Tear-to-be.

Still, the logistics of moving the Stone of Tear as a single monolithic piece is bound to be something extraordinary and implausibly more complicated than gateing in building materials in more manageable chunks and either welding the together or melting them and pouring them into forms, like concrete.

In fact, the Stone actually sounds more like a concrete bunker than a masonry fortress. Does the WOT still remember how to pour reinforced concrete? Could they mistake poured and reinforced concrete, or the AOL equivalent, for "A Single Stone?"

Concrete would crumble though...though I suppose it could be warded by the OP. It feels like they simply used regular stone and then used the OP to weld it together instead of mortar.

Terez
06-25-2011, 06:24 PM
I bet this has come up. Ain't terribly original.

Rand lost his hand, Mat lost his eye and Perrin will lose his life. That's right. Perrin dies and meets Faile in TAR afterwards. It's even more shocking because there is no prophecies about it that I remember.

A nose or an ear would seem to fit the pattern better.
Actually, the leg seems most appropriate. Linda has written about this at 13th Depository (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/perrin-blacksmith.html).

It wouldn't surprise me if the Aes Sedai who built tEoTW and Stone of Tear remembered how to Travel -- it was soon enough after the SASG that there were a fair number of Male Aes Sedai still reasonably sane.

What would surprise me is that they had the resources to gate a square (cubic?) mile of monolithic stone to Tear from anywhere -- i.e. a gateway at least a mile wide and several hundred feet high (however tall the Stone is plus a bit for clearance)
They did have Callandor, you know. ;)

Weird Harold
06-25-2011, 06:39 PM
Concrete would crumble though...though I suppose it could be warded by the OP. It feels like they simply used regular stone and then used the OP to weld it together instead of mortar.
The "AOL Equivalent" of reinforced concrete might not crumble, though. :D

the problem is that the Stone of Tear is described as "made of a single stone" which doesn't seem to allow for welding stone blocks -- the breaks in the grain of the stone on opposite sides of the weld would be obvious.

The more I think about it, the more it seems that the SToneof Tear must have been poured or molded out of something that either cooled/cured into Stone or was converted en masse to something later generations call "stone."

Perhaps, given it's seashore/delta location, it was built of sand, clay, or mud and then 'baked' into stone with the OP like a gigantic stoneware pottery artwork.

The Unreasoner
06-25-2011, 06:49 PM
Or they could have gated a flow of lava in, and poured it into a tied-off mold of air.
I still think the color of the Stone does not indicate volcanic rock.

Davian93
06-25-2011, 07:00 PM
The "AOL Equivalent" of reinforced concrete might not crumble, though. :D

the problem is that the Stone of Tear is described as "made of a single stone" which doesn't seem to allow for welding stone blocks -- the breaks in the grain of the stone on opposite sides of the weld would be obvious.

The more I think about it, the more it seems that the SToneof Tear must have been poured or molded out of something that either cooled/cured into Stone or was converted en masse to something later generations call "stone."



Perhaps, given it's seashore/delta location, it was built of sand, clay, or mud and then 'baked' into stone with the OP like a gigantic stoneware pottery artwork.

Perhaps a talented channeler (or likely a circle of channelers with sa'angreals) had the ability to turn seemingly solid stone/bedrock into a more liquid form for construction purposes?

Maybe thats what the lost Talent 'Spinning Earthfire' actually was?

Weird Harold
06-25-2011, 07:07 PM
Or they could have gated a flow of lava in, and poured it into a tied-off mold of air.
I still think the color of the Stone does not indicate volcanic rock.
I don't recall the color of the stone -- unless the red columns in the Heart of the Stone are the dominant color?

Weird Harold
06-25-2011, 07:17 PM
Perhaps a talented channeler (or likely a circle of channelers with sa'angreals) had the ability to turn seemingly solid stone/bedrock into a more liquid form for construction purposes?

Maybe thats what the lost Talent 'Spinning Earthfire' actually was?
One of the Talents Egwene was tested for as a damane was the ability to mine with the OP. The impression was that Damane are able to extract and refine ore without actually digging a hole -- teleporting the material to the surface, and presumably into molds or shaped into ingots in the process.

Doing the same for a mix of minerals and reconstituting the stone they extracted it from in the form of a Fortress doesn't seem terribly far-fetched. :D

From the perspective of extracting a square mile of Stone from Dragonmount, it is obvious that with access to a mixed circle -- such as set the wards on Callandor -- and possibly augmented by Callandor itself, there is far more material avaible much closer and easier to obtain than stone from Dragonmount. It doesn't even have to be stone originally.

Davian93
06-25-2011, 07:22 PM
I thought there was a quote somewhere that stated Callandor had never been used prior to Rand. I couldn't find it unfortunately so I'm hoping someone else also recalls that same quote (that I might very well be imagining).

Other than testing it during construction (at which time its flaws were discovered), it doesnt seem like they would use it for building the Stone...particularly when they likely had access to many other more reliable sa'angreals that didn't enhance the Taint.

Found it:



JWB: Was it used in the War of Power?
RJ: Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.

Nevermind on my first comments...as it was clearly used during the War of Power, it very well could have been used to build the Stone.

Terez
06-25-2011, 07:33 PM
I thought there was a quote somewhere that stated Callandor had never been used prior to Rand.
That was the Choedan Kal.

Davian93
06-25-2011, 07:42 PM
That was the Choedan Kal.

Yeah, I flipped them in my head. I realized it when I finally dug the quotes up in that handy database in your Sig link.

The Unreasoner
06-25-2011, 08:17 PM
I don't recall the color of the stone -- unless the red columns in the Heart of the Stone are the dominant color?

I thought it was reasonable to assume that the columns were part of the main fortress. And I think somewhere rand is looking at a tapestry on a reddish wall.

Weird Harold
06-26-2011, 01:15 AM
I thought it was reasonable to assume that the columns were part of the main fortress. And I think somewhere rand is looking at a tapestry on a reddish wall.
The BWB doesn't specify the color of the Stone, but it does make a distinction for the "polished redstone columns" in the Heart of the Stone. The BWB also does specify that the inner city is surrounded by a wall of "grey stone" as if there is acontrast between that and the Stone.

However:
...All in all, Tear was easily as big as Caemlyn or Tar Valon, and if not so beautiful as either, it was still one of the great cities. Yet she found it hard to look at anything but the Stone of Tear.

She had heard of it in stories, heard that it was the greatest fortress in the world and the oldest, the first built after the Breaking of the World, yet nothing had prepared her for this sight. At first she thought it was a huge, gray stone hill or a small, barren mountain covering hundreds of hides, its length stretching from the Erinin west through the wall and into the city. Even after she saw the huge banner flapping from its greatest height three white crescent moons slanting across a field half red, half gold; a banner waving at least three hundred paces above the river, yet large enough to be clearly seen at that height even after she made out battlements and towers, it was difficult to believe the Stone of Tear had been built rather than carved out of a mountain already there.

"Made with the Power," Elayne murmured. She was staring at the Stone, too. "Flows of Earth woven to draw stone from the ground, Air to bring it from every corner of the world, and Earth and Fire to make it all in one piece, without seam or joint or mortar. Atuan Sedai says the Tower could not do it, today. Strange, given how the High Lords feel concerning the Power now."


So, it would seem that the exterior is gray and the interior is where different colors were used.

The legend taught to Elayne (perpetuated by the WT?) sounds a lot like propaganda, but may be the literal Truth -- it would depend on what "Divine Revelation" (aka Foretelling) commanded for the construction. "Drawn from every corner of the world" could very well have included a symbolic chunk of dragonmount. It also suggests that the most efficient method of obtaining materials might have been overruled by specific requirements for material from specific places.

Res_Ipsa
06-26-2011, 01:34 AM
The BWB doesn't specify the color of the Stone, but it does make a distinction for the "polished redstone columns" in the Heart of the Stone. The BWB also does specify that the inner city is surrounded by a wall of "grey stone" as if there is acontrast between that and the Stone.

However:


So, it would seem that the exterior is gray and the interior is where different colors were used.

The legend taught to Elayne (perpetuated by the WT?) sounds a lot like propaganda, but may be the literal Truth -- it would depend on what "Divine Revelation" (aka Foretelling) commanded for the construction. "Drawn from every corner of the world" could very well have included a symbolic chunk of dragonmount. It also suggests that the most efficient method of obtaining materials might have been overruled by specific requirements for material from specific places.

Without knowing the exact mineral makeup of Randland and Tear specifically it may simply mean that Tear itself did not possess the requisite type of stone.

If this is a redundant statement of your intent I apologize; I assume you meant that their was a %mineral requirement of multiple minerals to utilize the weave correctly. While that would be possible it seems that the application of the one power is less about the OP bending to the materials than it is the materials bending to the OP in form and execution of weaves.

Weird Harold
06-26-2011, 01:58 AM
If this is a redundant statement of your intent I apologize; I assume you meant that their was a %mineral requirement of multiple minerals to utilize the weave correctly. While that would be possible it seems that the application of the one power is less about the OP bending to the materials than it is the materials bending to the OP in form and execution of weaves.

No, it's not redundant.

What I meant by a requirement for certain specific materials from specific places is that the importance of the source was greater than the mineral content of the stone. Much the way traditional epic fantasy often requires the hero to roam the world and gather specific items -- a hair from Rasputin's beard, a red pebble from the beach at ipanema, a snowball from the summit of Kilamanjaro, etc -- such that the material content of those items is immaterial to the mystic vibes of their provenance.

It is unlikely that any particular mineral is so lacking in Tears local geology as to require its importation, let alone a wide enough variety of mineral shortages to require the kind of importation suggested. The presence of a mineral, even if it isn't in the form of stone should be sufficient for the OP to include it in the finished building -- if nothing else, the OP could extract pretty much any element or compound needed from seawater.

nameless
06-26-2011, 12:52 PM
If there's a weave of Earth to weaken minerals, it stands to reason there's also a weave that strengthens them. The Aes Sedai could probably have made the fortress out of sandstone and just saidared it until it was impregnable.

Rand al'Fain
06-26-2011, 12:55 PM
If there's a weave of Earth to weaken minerals, it stands to reason there's also a weave that strengthens them. The Aes Sedai could probably have made the fortress out of sandstone and just saidared it until it was impregnable.
Isn't that what they essentially do to make Cuendillar though?

Weird Harold
06-26-2011, 05:22 PM
The Aes Sedai could probably have made the fortress out of sandstone and just saidared it until it was impregnable.

Isn't that what they essentially do to make Cuendillar though?

Cuendillar starts with wrought iron. Whatever you might make of sandstone with the same weave wouldn't be, or resemble, cuendillar. ETA: What you might get though is a glass palace, or a glass mountain as figure in several RW fairy tales.

As I said earlier, I don't see any inherent reason that a structure like the Stone couldn't be molded from wet sand or river mud and then "Saidared" (Saidared and Saidined both, actually) into a monolithic stone -- by 'baking'or 'firing' or by acclerating the natural processes that turn wet sand and river mud into first sedimentary, then metamorphic.

Whatever was done to make the Stone seamless, there had to be more -- it was under seige by channelers more than once and still stood. There had to be some warding involved too. (Perhaps the Stone is a gigantic ter'angreal, like Mat's medalion, which absorbs OP directed at it?)

Terez
06-26-2011, 05:34 PM
Cuendillar starts with wrought iron. Whatever you might make of sandstone with the same weave wouldn't be, or resemble, cuendillar. ETA: What you might get though is a glass palace, or a glass mountain as figure in several RW fairy tales.
Or a white bridge...

The Unreasoner
06-26-2011, 05:38 PM
Or a white bridge...
You beat me to it...

Davian93
06-26-2011, 05:40 PM
Or a white bridge...

You'd think someone would have mentioned that WhiteBridge is built of cuendillar given the fact that cuendillar is pretty well known as an extremely valuable item from the AoL...you'd think that someone like Bayle Domon would have mentioned it like "Aye, the Whitebridge, if you could pick it up and move it, that much cuendillar would buy you any kingdom in the world".

Otherwise, it makes a lot of sense that that is what it is built out of.

Terez
06-26-2011, 05:48 PM
Women working with iron produces the white kind. We don't know what makes the black kind, or the kind that is used to make the Domination Band.

Davian93
06-26-2011, 05:50 PM
Women working with iron produces the white kind. We don't know what makes the black kind, or the kind that is used to make the Domination Band.

You'd think it would be men working with something (perhaps iron also) as it would make logical sense.

The Unreasoner
06-26-2011, 06:06 PM
except that no women aes sedai supported ltt's plan, and yet the seals are both.

i think a slight alteration of the weave would suffice

Weird Harold
06-26-2011, 07:03 PM
Women working with iron produces the white kind. We don't know what makes the black kind, or the kind that is used to make the Domination Band.
We know the "form of cuendillar" in the Domination Band is (can be) produced by women weaving Saidar because damane (presumably) made the copies captured with Semirhage.

Saying that Whitebridge might be "a form of cuendillar" is pretty much a forgone conclusion if you consider "Cuendillar" as Old Tongue for "Ceramic." But 'ceramic' covers a wide range of RW materials, from Space Shuttle Heat tiles to deformed globs of high-fired clay kids call ashtrays and/or birthday presents. :D

For al practical purposes, the Stone of Tear can be considered a "Stoneware Castle with a One Power Glaze"

Terez
06-26-2011, 08:33 PM
We know the "form of cuendillar" in the Domination Band is (can be) produced by women weaving Saidar because damane (presumably) made the copies captured with Semirhage.
Perhaps. She might have had to get one of the men to copy them, or to link with her. But as far as we know, none of the Forsaken have the Talent.

Weird Harold
06-26-2011, 11:54 PM
Perhaps. She might have had to get one of the men to copy them, or to link with her. But as far as we know, none of the Forsaken have the Talent.
True, we don't know if any of the Forsaken have a Talent for ter'angreal. We DO know that the Seanchan test for and train damane who do have the talent to use them for making a'dam. Occam's razor says damane made the copies, cause we already know they CAN make ter'angreal.