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Ishara
06-24-2011, 10:27 PM
To recap the concept:

First, pop over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5669) for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

This week, we're discussing Tigraine Mantear Damodred:

In hindsight we know that she was right to follow mysterious instructions to leave her family, her son, her country, her duties and obligations, her entire way of life...but what does that say about her?

Was in blind faith in Aes Sedai and their infallibility? Could it have been Compulsion, or was she just emotionally impacted by the conversation she had with her Mother's advisor Gitara Moroso? (Incidentally, a Blue with the Foretelling, and over 300 years at her sudden death)?

Related to the reason she went, you have to consider that Tigraine proved to be sheerly stubborn in her quest to become a Maiden, why? Stubbornness to do something well if she was going to do it all? Or perhaps Compulsion?

Was she foolish and selfish to go into battle so heavily pregnant? Do you think that the instructions that Gitara maybe gave her also included her needing to fight? In a battle? On a mountain? In the snow? Back in her homeland? Did she push Janduin to become the leader of the four Clans to ensure that she would be front and centre?

Ultimately, I see her as one of the bravest characters in the series. She leaves everything she knows and loves (her own child) and goes off to follow an uncertain fate (or was it?). She looks at death and keeps struggling. She faced an impossible future (even if all she knew was that she had to go and be Maiden), and she made it possible.

Did she know that the child she was destined to carry was the Dragon Reborn? If she knew, then she was unspeakably brave. To know that your child will one day destroy the world (basically speaking) must suck, on epic levels. Increasingly an intriguing character...

I have to admit that Tigraine has always been a mystery to me. We see so many secondary and largely non-important characters fleshed out, that when one isn't, I wonder why...

So?

Terez
06-24-2011, 10:56 PM
I think that maybe, when she got pregnant and they crossed the Dragonwall, she might have begun to suspect something. She knew via the Foretelling that her mission was very important, which was more cause for suspicion than even Tam had, when he found Rand on Dragonmount.

Ishara
06-24-2011, 11:13 PM
Dammit New Spring was tricksy! I actually picked up my book to check, and saw that she was "as flamboyant as a Green or Yellow" and didn't go any further than that. Fixed!

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 11:21 PM
Isn't it tigraine mantear?
And I get the feeling gitara was one of those Aes Sedai of legend, a force to be reckoned with. Like a cadsuane with diplomacy skills. I'm sure she had all of the passion of her ajah, and it was almost contagious. Moiraine respected her greatly, and she shows a passion comparable to what I imagine tigraine felt. I'm sure tigraine respected her greatly, and accepted her judgement.

It likely didn't hurt that she was a bound Aes Sedai with the foretelling either.

And something has to be said about genetics...galad and rand are two of the most dutiful characters in the series.

What's more, I'll bet she too saw through Bryne's charade.

Terez
06-24-2011, 11:24 PM
Isn't it tigraine mantear?
Since Galad is a Damodred, and since Dobraine thought Taringail screwed up by marrying into Trakand rather than having Morgase marry into Damodred, the implication is that Tigraine married into Damodred. But perhaps the last name only goes to the children, and the Daughter-Heir keeps her house name.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 11:36 PM
Given some of Elayne's views I doubt andor would want a queen from a cairhienin house. And Dobraine might have been speaking as a cairhienin who knew Elayne (trakand) would rule regardless, complaining while acknowledging its futility.

Sei'taer
06-24-2011, 11:39 PM
Tigraine is one of those characters that I have a hard time understanding. I'm not one for pure faith over reason. That's one of the reasons I felt like Tigraine was a victim of compulsion. I've always wondered if Siuan and Moiraine weren't also the victims of compulsion, blasted into them as Gitara died. They show similar unadulterated faith, the same way Tigraine did. They were singleminded in their pursuit of the true dragon reborn in the same way Tigraine pursued her end. Faith like that just kind of gives me the willies.

I need to reread some of the quotes about her and get a feel for her again.

Weird Harold
06-25-2011, 01:01 AM
... I felt like Tigraine was a victim of compulsion. I've always wondered if Siuan and Moiraine weren't also the victims of compulsion, blasted into them as Gitara died. They show similar unadulterated faith, the same way Tigraine did.

We saw Gitara's death in New Spring and Moiraine's POV (IIRC) and there was no indication of compulsion from Gitara involved.

Still, Gitara was involved in Luc going off to the blight and a year later in Tigraine's disappearance in 972NE. Notably, when spontaneous Foretelling is involved, the Pattern seems to be involved and the Pattern has ways of making people fulfill prophecy -- no faith involved except to determine if it is the hard way or the easy way to fulfilling Prophecy.


A cursory review of Gitara's mentions suggest that there may have been a year or two between Tigraine's departure from Caemlyn and Shaile's arrival in the Three-fold Land. Perhaps Tigraine ran away in 972, but didn't run away to meet her Destiny, but rather ran away from her Destiny? Perhaps Shaile's condition when she finally found the Maidens of The Spear was more a result of resisting her destiny than a necessary hardship to elicit sympathy instead of violence?

The Unreasoner
06-25-2011, 01:04 AM
Her faith could have been born from reason- she deduced that a foretelling Aes Sedai knew what she was about.

Although the luc thing seems sketchy, so she may have been black.

Kimon
06-25-2011, 01:31 AM
Since Galad is a Damodred, and since Dobraine thought Taringail screwed up by marrying into Trakand rather than having Morgase marry into Damodred, the implication is that Tigraine married into Damodred. But perhaps the last name only goes to the children, and the Daughter-Heir keeps her house name.

Dobraine seemed to emphasize that Taringail could have done so because Morgase needed the marriage so badly. Tigraine would have had no such need, if anything, wouldn't doing so have tarnished her claim, or at least the prestige of House Mantear, as then she would have (had she now gone awol) ruled as a Damodred rather than a Mantear, as a Cairhienin rather than an Andoran. That would likely have not gone over well. The fact that Galad kept his dad's name can be easily explained - Taringail wanted Galad to have the chance to rule Cairhien, hence the need for him to carry the Cairhienin name. Elayne, like Tigraine and Morgase, needed the Andoran name. Gawyn didn't really matter for political inheritance purposes, and wouldn't unless Galad died, in which case it might have made sense for him to undergo a transitio ad Damodred, but baring that his house affiliation was unimportant.

Res_Ipsa
06-25-2011, 01:31 AM
Tigraine not being Ta'veren would have been driven to complete the foretelling. Would the pattern have allowed her to not believe the foretelling or even fail in her mission? Being raised as an Andoran noble and the daughter heir no less would mean she would not have led a very difficult life (Speculation but a reasonable one) but when she heard the foretelling she drops everything and leaves. Her trip through the waste is "documented" but even before that a woman traveling alone not used to "roughing it" would have been easy prey for even the least accomplished of criminals. It makes you wonder if she had help either from a helpful servant or guard in preparing for and executing her trip who for some reason disappeared before reaching the waste.

Rand al'Fain
06-25-2011, 05:48 AM
Tigraine not being Ta'veren would have been driven to complete the foretelling. Would the pattern have allowed her to not believe the foretelling or even fail in her mission? Being raised as an Andoran noble and the daughter heir no less would mean she would not have led a very difficult life (Speculation but a reasonable one) but when she heard the foretelling she drops everything and leaves. Her trip through the waste is "documented" but even before that a woman traveling alone not used to "roughing it" would have been easy prey for even the least accomplished of criminals. It makes you wonder if she had help either from a helpful servant or guard in preparing for and executing her trip who for some reason disappeared before reaching the waste.
Kind of what I wondered too. She has lived as the Daughter-Heir of Andor all her life, and the Game of Houses in Andor pales in comparison to Cairhein or Tear. So, maybe she had help from one or two highly trust-worthy servants like Morgase did? Remember, most people didn't even realize she had left until after Rand had killed Rahvin (hence all the rumors of him killing her). So it can be done discreetly, she would just need a couple of highly loyal servants to help her that would either come with her or keep their mouths shut no matter what.

Sei'taer
06-25-2011, 11:34 AM
We saw Gitara's death in New Spring and Moiraine's POV (IIRC) and there was no indication of compulsion from Gitara involved.

Still, Gitara was involved in Luc going off to the blight and a year later in Tigraine's disappearance in 972NE. Notably, when spontaneous Foretelling is involved, the Pattern seems to be involved and the Pattern has ways of making people fulfill prophecy -- no faith involved except to determine if it is the hard way or the easy way to fulfilling Prophecy.


We don't have a POV from Gitara and since it's not like people know they are being compulsed, it's hard to say either way. I just think that the level of faith these three have put into one person is eerie. The only person who has had that level of faith in Rand, the real live Dragon was insane and he's dead now. I don't feel like it's beyond reason that all three or even four, if you include Luc, were compulsed in some way.

Her faith could have been born from reason- she deduced that a foretelling Aes Sedai knew what she was about.

Although the luc thing seems sketchy, so she may have been black

She doesn't have to be black. They discuss sisters who are able to get Daddy to buy new shoes for them and all sorts of little tricks. Maybe Gitara could do that and had refined it over her 300 some years. Or she could have just had a knack for it.

GonzoTheGreat
06-25-2011, 12:14 PM
Since Galad is a Damodred, and since Dobraine thought Taringail screwed up by marrying into Trakand rather than having Morgase marry into Damodred, the implication is that Tigraine married into Damodred. But perhaps the last name only goes to the children, and the Daughter-Heir keeps her house name.I think it more likely that some deal had been made that male offspring, or the first male offspring, would be Damodred.

All the times a House is mentioned for Tigraine, it is Mantear. Examples:

Choosing who would be Queen of Andor was quite simple, boiled down to essentials. There were over four hundred Houses in the realm, but only nineteen strong enough that others would follow where they led. Usually, all nineteen stood behind the Daughter-Heir, or most of them, unless she was plainly incompetent. House Mantear had lost the throne to Trakand when Mordrellen died only because Tigraine, the Daughter-Heir, had vanished and Mantear had begun running heavily to boy children. And because Morgase Trakand had gathered thirteen Houses in her support. Only ten of the nineteen were necessary to ascend the throne, by law and custom. Even claimants who still thought they should have the throne themselves usually fell in with the rest, or at least fell silent and gave up their pursuit, once another woman had ten Houses at her back.

Succession: In general, when one House succeeds another on the throne. In Andor, the term is widely used for the struggle for the throne that arose upon Mordrellen's death. Tigraine's disappearance had left Mantear without a Daughter-Heir, and two years passed before Morgase, of House Trakand, took the throne. Outside of Andor, this conflict was known as the Third War of Andoran Succession.

Frenzy
06-25-2011, 02:49 PM
Tigraine is set up like a tragic figure, someone who had to be at the right place at the right time to give birth to the savior, but she was badass about it. One does not walk willingly into the Waste, a wetlander does not get adopted into Aiel society, a Maiden does not marry a clan chief, etc.

But she gets it done. She throws everything away and does what she has to, even though it meant giving up her son and eventually dying. That level of 'suck it up and get it done'-ness is something her younger son obviously didn't inherit from her. Pity.

GonzoTheGreat
06-26-2011, 04:44 AM
Are you saying that Rand should marry Rhuarc?

Ishara
06-26-2011, 12:17 PM
Isn't it tigraine mantear?
OKay - we've resolved this issue by editing the OP to include Mantear. Now let's talk about things that are actually interesting. ;)

What's more, I'll bet she too saw through Bryne's charade.
This mad eme curious - what exactly do you mean to imply here?

Tigraine is one of those characters that I have a hard time understanding. I'm not one for pure faith over reason. That's one of the reasons I felt like Tigraine was a victim of compulsion. I've always wondered if Siuan and Moiraine weren't also the victims of compulsion, blasted into them as Gitara died. They show similar unadulterated faith, the same way Tigraine did. They were singleminded in their pursuit of the true dragon reborn in the same way Tigraine pursued her end. Faith like that just kind of gives me the willies.

I need to reread some of the quotes about her and get a feel for her again.

I'll dig some up - both about Gitara and Tigraine. Ultimately, I always chalked up the single-mindedness of Suian and Moiraine as their hallmark Blue behaviour. As if what they saw happen in the Amyrlin's study was what cemented their desire to be Blue because now they had a quest, a purpose to follow.


Still, Gitara was involved in Luc going off to the blight and a year later in Tigraine's disappearance in 972NE. Notably, when spontaneous Foretelling is involved, the Pattern seems to be involved and the Pattern has ways of making people fulfill prophecy -- no faith involved except to determine if it is the hard way or the easy way to fulfilling Prophecy. This is another interesting factor to consider, Luc by all accounts (and admittedly, there are few) was not a Darkfriend when he was younger, and in fact seems to have crossed either during or following his meeting with Isam. Which, in and of itself, is an intersting thing to consider...


A cursory review of Gitara's mentions suggest that there may have been a year or two between Tigraine's departure from Caemlyn and Shaile's arrival in the Three-fold Land. Perhaps Tigraine ran away in 972, but didn't run away to meet her Destiny, but rather ran away from her Destiny? Perhaps Shaile's condition when she finally found the Maidens of The Spear was more a result of resisting her destiny than a necessary hardship to elicit sympathy instead of violence?
This though, this fascinates me! Let's get some timeline information confirmed. Younglings, this is an excellent time to point you in the direction of Terez's signature link: go forth and find associated timeline info to shed some light on this issue.

We could speculate that her journey alone (or with a retainer) across the land would have taken significantly longer than that of our Mains, as they had assistance and lots of fast horses, and you know, the Ways. Tigraine had no access to those things, and would have had to make way much more slowly. But does that account for a year or two? We need to narrow this down.

I have to say though, I never believed that Tigraine allowed herself to suffer so hard to get the result of sympathy over death when she finally met the Maidens. I think rather, that she was more like Elayne in regards to stubbornness. She would meet them and convince them or die trying. The Pattern wouldn't let her die, and so she succeeded. The fact that she succeeded with such panache just speaks to how damn awesome she was.

Her trip through the waste is "documented" but even before that a woman traveling alone not used to "roughing it" would have been easy prey for even the least accomplished of criminals. It makes you wonder if she had help either from a helpful servant or guard in preparing for and executing her trip who for some reason disappeared before reaching the waste. I'm of two minds here. The first is that while Elayne (our only comparable character) has been naive and fussy and spoiled on her journeys - she was also resourceful and canny enough to avoid the worst. Her training as Daughter-Heir seems to have prepared her for identifying bullshitters and not tolerating it. So, I don't necessarily see her being robbed or abused significantly during her travels to the Waste.

The second thought is that notwithstanding that, she would have been stupid, so very stupid, not to bring along someone to help her. None of us know what exactly Gitara told her, and we all know how important the exact word are in these circumstances, but I'm sure Gitara did not say that she and a trusty servant would have to ... blah blah blah. So, she would have had to contradict the orders of an Aes Sedai, which is also so very stupid if you put yourself in her shoes. It could be that there is an untold hero a la Basel Gill hiding in the ether.

The very last thing I wanted to touch on was the question of whether Tigraine knew she was part of destiny when she crossed.

Again, as we don't know what Gitara told her, we can't say for sure she knew her destiny had anything to do with the Dragon - it could have been that Gitara told her Andor would fail if she didn't go. That certainly would have been enough for Elayne. But maybe it was more...

We know that the Aiel didn't plan becoming embattled in and around Tar Valon and Dragonmount, it was just a matter of war. If the Aiel saw themselves as a strikeforce coming in to take out Cairhien, then Tar Valon was simply a casualty of being in the way. So, could she have foreseen her battling on the mountain? I don't think so...

But could she have stopped herself given the fact that she was heavily pregnant? Um, yes? This is where I run into trouble. Up until insisting on fighting that day, I believe Tigraine to be one of the most selfless and brave characters in WoT. Choosing to expose yourself and your unborn child to harm deliberately - not so brave and not so selfish. I sort of hope that it did occur to her, knowing the Karaethenon Cycle as she must have, that her actions were giving way to the Dragon as she died.

nameless
06-26-2011, 01:48 PM
We saw Gitara's death in New Spring and Moiraine's POV (IIRC) and there was no indication of compulsion from Gitara involved.

Still, Gitara was involved in Luc going off to the blight and a year later in Tigraine's disappearance in 972NE. Notably, when spontaneous Foretelling is involved, the Pattern seems to be involved and the Pattern has ways of making people fulfill prophecy -- no faith involved except to determine if it is the hard way or the easy way to fulfilling Prophecy.


A cursory review of Gitara's mentions suggest that there may have been a year or two between Tigraine's departure from Caemlyn and Shaile's arrival in the Three-fold Land. Perhaps Tigraine ran away in 972, but didn't run away to meet her Destiny, but rather ran away from her Destiny? Perhaps Shaile's condition when she finally found the Maidens of The Spear was more a result of resisting her destiny than a necessary hardship to elicit sympathy instead of violence?

Luc's disappearance is the part that's really interesting to me. Tigraine leaving makes perfect sense. She needs to conceive and deliver the Dragon, who needs to be half Aiel. Why did Luc have to leave? Would Morgase still have married Tigraine's ex if she hadn't? Thom and Elayne's story arcs would have been completely different without Morgase on the Lion Throne. Was Gitara's Fortelling specific enough for her to know they'd both be needed?

Rand al'Fain
06-26-2011, 01:53 PM
Luc's disappearance is the part that's really interesting to me. Tigraine leaving makes perfect sense. She needs to conceive and deliver the Dragon, who needs to be half Aiel. Why did Luc have to leave? Would Morgase still have married Tigraine's ex if she hadn't? Thom and Elayne's story arcs would have been completely different without Morgase on the Lion Throne. Was Gitara's Fortelling specific enough for her to know they'd both be needed?
This is interesting to me too, as up until the last few books, I had thought that "His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" meant Luc would die, as he is Rand's blood relative. But yeah, the newest parts of the prophecies kind of blew that out of the water.

The Unreasoner
06-26-2011, 02:42 PM
OKay - we've resolved this issue by editing the OP to include Mantear. Now let's talk about things that are actually interesting. ;)
Yeah it was just an idle observation, I didn't expect people to take it and run with it, especially with an obvious answer. Sorry for the distraction in any case.
This mad eme curious - what exactly do you mean to imply here?
You know, I will just drop that line. Suffice it to say I don't like or trust Bryne. And I will bet tigraine didn't either.
I'll dig some up - both about Gitara and Tigraine. Ultimately, I always chalked up the single-mindedness of Suian and Moiraine as their hallmark Blue behaviour. As if what they saw happen in the Amyrlin's study was what cemented their desire to be Blue because now they had a quest, a purpose to follow.
Or they wanted to be blue and found the greatest cause ever.
This is another interesting factor to consider, Luc by all accounts (and admittedly, there are few) was not a Darkfriend when he was younger, and in fact seems to have crossed either during or following his meeting with Isam. Which, in and of itself, is an intersting thing to consider...
Luc always confused me, and I always assumed he was a darkfriend, but but that really raises far more questions than it answers. Maybe if Luc was still around, he could gather support against trakand, and another house would succeed mantear. Of course this seems to imply that Elaida correctly interpreted her first foretelling, as gitara allegedly sent Luc off on a foretelling.
This though, this fascinates me! Let's get some timeline information confirmed. Younglings, this is an excellent time to point you in the direction of Terez's signature link: go forth and find associated timeline info to shed some light on this issue.

We could speculate that her journey alone (or with a retainer) across the land would have taken significantly longer than that of our Mains, as they had assistance and lots of fast horses, and you know, the Ways. Tigraine had no access to those things, and would have had to make way much more slowly. But does that account for a year or two? We need to narrow this down.
Perhaps she was training, or laying low somewhere. The retainer idea certainly makes sense. One recurring theme is that no hero(ine) stands alone.
Are any of the planned prequels expected to cover this?
And I am opposed to youngling labor lol.

Toss the dice
06-26-2011, 03:32 PM
I personally view the whole Tigraine and Gitara thing exactly how it reads in the books. Not sure how it's strange or unbelievable as it already is. And why would Gitara be Black? If she was Black and had the foretelling she did, why in the hell would she pass it along and fulfill it? Sure, she could have been Black and the Pattern forced her along, but is that really plausible? Of course not.

The idea that the Pattern allowed Tigraine safe passage into the Waste is very believable as well. If you look at the TONS of things the Pattern has been responsible for in the WoT, what's so strange about the Pattern keeping the would-be mother of the Dragon Reborn safe on her all-important journey? You speak of criminals, bandits and thieves as if they are a force so great that Tigraine would have needed an army to protect her. I'm guessing she traveled alone. I would actually almost guarantee that she did.

The WoT is a world where (most) people listen to Aes Sedai. If an important one (or any sister) visits you and says you have to do something for the fate of the world and is deadly serious - what do you think they're going to do? Gitara probably had a long conversation with Tigraine anyway, not simply going up to her, telling her the 1-2 important sentences and walking away confident that she would do it.

David Selig
06-26-2011, 04:37 PM
This though, this fascinates me! Let's get some timeline information confirmed. Younglings, this is an excellent time to point you in the direction of Terez's signature link: go forth and find associated timeline info to shed some light on this issue.
Tigraine "disappeared" from Caemlyn in 972 NE (according to the TEOTW Glossary). Amys noted to Rand that when Tigraine arrived in the Waste, it was 4 years before the start of the Aiel War, which started in 976, so she arrived in the Waste the same year in which she left Caemlyn.

The Unreasoner
06-26-2011, 05:10 PM
Tigraine "disappeared" from Caemlyn in 972 NE (according to the TEOTW Glossary). Amys noted to Rand that when Tigraine arrived in the Waste, it was 4 years before the start of the Aiel War, which started in 976, so she arrived in the Waste the same year in which she left Caemlyn.

Scab! Lol.

Weird Harold
06-26-2011, 07:10 PM
I have to say though, I never believed that Tigraine allowed herself to suffer so hard to get the result of sympathy over death when she finally met the Maidens.

I didn't mean that Tigraine "allowed" anything, but that the Pattern put such obstacles in her way so as to produce a "stray kitten effect" -- possibly to break down an innate arrogance Tigraine started out with that would have produced hostility instead of sympathy?

We don't really know whether Tigraine ran away to her Destiny or ran away from her Destiny. The result would have been the same in either case, except for the troubles and travails she suffered on the way -- even aside from the effects of the Three-fold Land on an unprepared "woman dressed in silk" as Tigraine was when found by the Maidens.

It would be interesting to know which scenario fits. Did she run east over the dragonwall or did she run some other direction only to be dragged along by circumstances where her only escape was toward the Three-fold land?

We'll never know of course, but human nature and royalty being what they are, I'd bet on an adventure worthy of a outrigger novel. People, not to mention nobility or Royalty, don't like to be told they have no choice, but in the WOT running away doesn't do any good; as soon as Gitara had the Foretelling, Tigraine was going to go the Three-fold Land and become a maiden of the spear.

Weird Harold
06-26-2011, 07:22 PM
Tigraine "disappeared" from Caemlyn in 972 NE (according to the TEOTW Glossary). Amys noted to Rand that when Tigraine arrived in the Waste, it was 4 years before the start of the Aiel War, which started in 976, so she arrived in the Waste the same year in which she left Caemlyn.

So at most eleven months or so of rebellious flight and misadventures -- or determined progress against all odds.

ETA: I wonder if Tigraine encountered any DF plots aimed at thwarting her destiny?

David Selig
06-26-2011, 07:33 PM
I find it interesting that Tigraine was good enough with the bow that even the Maidens considered her skilled at that when she came to the Waste. Weapon training for women is hardly popular in Andor and among its nobility. Both Morgase and Elayne had none of that. Daughter-Heirs and Queens are expected to know about military strategy, but not to be fighters themselves. Maybe Tigraine was preparing for going to the Waste by training with the bow for some months or even years?

Weird Harold
06-26-2011, 07:47 PM
Maybe Tigraine was preparing for going to the Waste by training with the bow for some months or even years?

I doubt it was purposeful training for her Destiny, but the Pattern does put the right personality traits with any given destiny -- Tigraine was probably a Tomboy and rebelled against being a "proper young lady" much as Maidens of the Spear are those not suited to training as roofmistress or other "womanly" roles.

Tigraine probably trained with a bow because it was the only way she could express her tomboy nature without creating a scandal.

Res_Ipsa
06-26-2011, 09:46 PM
I'm of two minds here. The first is that while Elayne (our only comparable character) has been naive and fussy and spoiled on her journeys - she was also resourceful and canny enough to avoid the worst. Her training as Daughter-Heir seems to have prepared her for identifying bullshitters and not tolerating it. So, I don't necessarily see her being robbed or abused significantly during her travels to the Waste.

My statement was lacking for precisely what you have stated. Despite the ideas I laid out it is because of the strong females in the series that Tigraine's actions are not in my mind in the realm of pure fantasy. I still believe the pattern guided her actions but they were hers to take the credit for.

An addition I had thought of as well was that Cairhien would not have been a hard travel for anyone considering the clans had yet to come seeking their blood price and Andor would have been just as prosperous and secure a country. None of the aforementioned is to take away from the courage and strength it would take to leave everything you know behind in the blink of an eye.

The second thought is that notwithstanding that, she would have been stupid, so very stupid, not to bring along someone to help her. None of us know what exactly Gitara told her, and we all know how important the exact word are in these circumstances, but I'm sure Gitara did not say that she and a trusty servant would have to ... blah blah blah. So, she would have had to contradict the orders of an Aes Sedai, which is also so very stupid if you put yourself in her shoes. It could be that there is an untold hero a la Basel Gill hiding in the ether.

I was dearly hoping for the 2nd or perhaps the 3rd outrigger to detail Tigraine's leave-takings and her journey to the waste. The Aiel in my mind are the most fascinating of the people of Randland. Who doesn't want to know more about the Aiel!

Kimon
06-26-2011, 10:57 PM
I doubt it was purposeful training for her Destiny, but the Pattern does put the right personality traits with any given destiny -- Tigraine was probably a Tomboy and rebelled against being a "proper young lady" much as Maidens of the Spear are those not suited to training as roofmistress or other "womanly" roles.

Tigraine probably trained with a bow because it was the only way she could express her tomboy nature without creating a scandal.

It might just be as simple as a background in hunting with a bow. When Rand and Min first met Caraline Damodred she did have a crossbow with her, and when Darlin showed up to complain about almost getting hit by her bolt, he suggests that they had all been out hunting. If it is socially acceptable for a Cairhienin noblewoman to train in hunting with a bow, I don't see why it need be out of the ordinary for the same to have been possible for an Andoran noblewoman.

Res_Ipsa
06-26-2011, 11:13 PM
It might just be as simple as a background in hunting with a bow. When Rand and Min first met Caraline Damodred she did have a crossbow with her, and when Darlin showed up to complain about almost getting hit by her bolt, he suggests that they had all been out hunting. If it is socially acceptable for a Cairhienin noblewoman to train in hunting with a bow, I don't see why it need be out of the ordinary for the same to have been possible for an Andoran noblewoman.

Cairhien is more of a martial culture than Andor. Hawking and hunting do not seem prevalent at all within Andoran circles. While Elayne is fierce and Andoran queens in the past had lead armies it was for the women to rule and men to fight their wars for them. Looking at Cairhien women in Cha Faile as well as other examples they seem a much more ready-to-fight sort.

The Unreasoner
06-26-2011, 11:18 PM
Also, it is relatively simple to learn a crossbow. mat himself remarks that proper bow training can take years.

I'd like to see this as a prequel, but not in place of the tam al'thor one.

Note...
double reference to dedicated
shaiel=woman who is dedicated
aiel=dedicated

shes more blue than a Blue

Ishara
06-26-2011, 11:24 PM
You know, I will just drop that line. Suffice it to say I don't like or trust Bryne. And I will bet tigraine didn't either.

Oh see,. but now I want to know why! ;) Elucidate me. Was Gryne even a character of presence (i.e. worthy of note at that time?)

Are any of the planned prequels expected to cover this?
And I am opposed to youngling labor lol.
No, and I don't care. Try to fit in dear. :)

Tigraine "disappeared" from Caemlyn in 972 NE (according to the TEOTW Glossary). Amys noted to Rand that when Tigraine arrived in the Waste, it was 4 years before the start of the Aiel War, which started in 976, so she arrived in the Waste the same year in which she left Caemlyn. Excellent, Thanks!

That leads us to believe that she was fairly single minded in her task (knowing that a trip to the Waste would have taken at least 6 of her 11 free months to get there I'm going to assume that that she just went straight there, perhaps convinced or compelled by Gitara. Either way, not a lot of time to do other things along the way...

Norhas there been a lot of speculation so far on her own thoughts as she allied herself with Janduin and crossed the Dragon Wall...

I can see her seeing herself as Janduin's equal, given her Wetlander standing, and supporting and assisting his increase in power and influence even as she was busy being a kick-ass Maiden. If you see her as a woman of Elayne's experience and knowledge at minimum, then you can see that this would be favourble to her. It's a status thing. But crossing the Dragon Wall, pregnant...why?!

The Unreasoner
06-26-2011, 11:39 PM
if tigraine=ygraine then le conte du Graal seems to say she is still alive, but since gawain is the one that finds her and his mom (who he believed dead), maybe it's more related to gawyn finding morgase and elayne.

but could an aes sedai maybe have healed tigraine after tam abandoned her as dead?

bryne was, i believe, captain general at the time of the aiel war, and a captain before, in service to mordrellen. and my dislike of him is completely Unreasonable. I just find him to be a microcosm of the things i dislike about the series. unimportant characters given too much screen time, unwarranted reputations, his early scenes with siuan... I don't know, I would rather hate this one character with a passion than be mildly annoyed with the whole series. call it a defense mechanism. now i can be a hcff and have wacky views like felix.

The Unreasoner
06-26-2011, 11:49 PM
the whole fighting while pregnant thing does get me. her spear sisters likely would have tried to keep her back. exposing an unborn child to risk seems like something to incur toh

Rand al'Fain
06-26-2011, 11:54 PM
if tigraine=ygraine then le conte du Graal seems to say she is still alive, but since gawain is the one that finds her and his mom (who he believed dead), maybe it's more related to gawyn finding morgase and elayne.

but could an aes sedai maybe have healed tigraine after tam abandoned her as dead?

bryne was, i believe, captain general at the time of the aiel war, and a captain before, in service to mordrellen. and my dislike of him is completely Unreasonable. I just find him to be a microcosm of the things i dislike about the series. unimportant characters given too much screen time, unwarranted reputations, his early scenes with siuan... I don't know, I would rather hate this one character with a passion than be mildly annoyed with the whole series. call it a defense mechanism. now i can be a hcff and have wacky views like felix.
I don't think an Aes Sedai did heal her, as that would have been something heavily remarked upon in the White Tower during New Spring. Though I do wonder if her body was buried or anything.

Toss the dice
06-27-2011, 02:04 AM
Cairhien is more of a martial culture than Andor. Hawking and hunting do not seem prevalent at all within Andoran circles. While Elayne is fierce and Andoran queens in the past had lead armies it was for the women to rule and men to fight their wars for them. Looking at Cairhien women in Cha Faile as well as other examples they seem a much more ready-to-fight sort.

I agree with this for the most part. However, there is that one scene where Morgase goes hawking with a bunch of nobles. Don't know which book.

Andor seems like a much more "traditional" or standard culture when it comes to the women and fighting. Which is to say it is mostly non-existent. Cairhien probably WAS very similar to Andor in this regard, but after not one but two Aiel wars -- even the women were looking to kick some ass and get their own back. That's the way I look at it anyway.

Lapine Imperator
06-27-2011, 02:57 AM
Given her station, had Tigraine not also received Tower training as is tradition? From such an experience, it would add more weight to the words of an Aes Sedai, not to mention the weight of a Foretelling. If from Tigraine's perspective, she believes Aes Sedai cannot lie, and Foretelling come true, and if the foretelling was relayed to her in a fashion such as, 'you must go on this great journey or terrible things will happen, especially to Andor.' It would be her sense of duty as Daughter-Heir as much as anything that drove her, which makes sense for 'She who is dedicated.'

The Unreasoner
06-27-2011, 03:31 AM
She trained in the tower, i believe that's also where she disappeared, but I'm not 100% on the last bit.

Weird Harold
06-27-2011, 03:40 AM
I agree with this for the most part. However, there is that one scene where Morgase goes hawking with a bunch of nobles. Don't know which book.

That was when she was the "guest" of Pedron Niall and those were Amadician nobles. Not terribly indicative of Andoran custom.

looqas
06-27-2011, 05:10 AM
This is another interesting factor to consider, Luc by all accounts (and admittedly, there are few) was not a Darkfriend when he was younger, and in fact seems to have crossed either during or following his meeting with Isam. Which, in and of itself, is an intersting thing to consider...


<Commenting before reading the whole thread. Bad habits. Sorry if this was dealt later.>

Too bad since if Luc was a DF it would be the most plausible reason him to leave the things behind and go to the Blight.

I mean contemplate the following scenario. Luc is found out to be a DF. Family's golden boy is dark. Gitara gives him a choice. Gitara's leniency makes Tigraine feel that she owes her one. This would have factored in come Tigraine's decision to trust Gitara and drop everything.

And it just starts to dawn on me that if Pattern, via Gitara, made Luc to go to Blight then it must mean that Pattern is also forcing dark side people into places. They are are as much a puppet as the Light side people are to the Pattern. Also it places quite an immense importance to Luc come the finale. Also poor DO dancing to the tune Pattern is whistling. No wonder he's so pissed. At least the 'champions' forget, but DO remembers every failure.

About Tigraine itself.

I find it very interesting comparing Elayne and Tigraine and how they behave when being pregnant. Elayne is downright stupid what comes to reason and sense because she believes Min's viewing about that nothing can touch her. Maybe it was the same with Tigraine. Maybe Gitara told that you will deliver a baby that will save the world. "Now run along and take what ever risks you feel like. Go to war if you like. You are totally covered."

GonzoTheGreat
06-27-2011, 06:56 AM
We don't really know whether Tigraine ran away to her Destiny or ran away from her Destiny.I don't see any reason to think she had been running away from her destiny. If that had been her goal, then why didn't she simply stay put in Caemlyn?

Maybe Gitara was one of the Aelfinn:
"Rand, maybe that's the answer they give everybody. Those snake people, I mean. Go to Rhuidean. Maybe we don't have to be here at all." He did not believe it, but with that fog staring him in the face...

yks 6nnetu hing
06-27-2011, 08:59 AM
I don't think an Aes Sedai did heal her, as that would have been something heavily remarked upon in the White Tower during New Spring. Though I do wonder if her body was buried or anything.

This made me think of Kari al'Thor, as described by Nynaeve:
TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 16 - The Wisdom
"Oh, Rand." She stopped and took his face in both hands. She had to reach up to do it. "People say strange things in a fever. Twisted things. Things that are not true, or real. Listen to me. Tam al'Thor ran away seeking adventure when he was a boy no older than you. I can just remember when he came back to Emond's Field, a grown man with a red-haired, outlander wife and a babe in swaddling clothes. I remember Kari al'Thor cradling that child in her arms with as much love given and delight taken as I have ever seen from any woman with a babe. Her child, Rand. You. Now you straighten up and stop this foolishness."Now, the Aiel don't hold monopoly on red hair so it is definitely possible that Kari (if that's her real name) was from the Wetlands. But. It is an interesting coincidence, no? I quite doubt that Kari = Tigraine though because Tam clearly says that he and Kari didn't have children of their own, their relationship seems to pre-date the battle, at least. And as he was delirious when he said it, I tend to take that particular bit at face value. However, would it be possible that Tam knew where to be because Kari told him to go to the slopes of Dragonmount and look for a pregnant/just given birth Maiden?

GonzoTheGreat
06-27-2011, 09:45 AM
That interpretation, while interesting, does seem to be heavily contradicted by what Tam actually said:
"... battles are always hot, even in the snow. Sweat heat. Blood heat. Only death is cool. Slope of the mountain ... only place didn't stink of death. Had to get away from smell of it ... sight of it ... heard a baby cry. Their women fight alongside the men, sometimes, but why they had let her come, I don't ... gave birth there alone, before she died of her wounds ... covered the child with her cloak, but the wind ... blown the cloak away ... child, blue with the cold. Should have been dead, too ... crying there. Crying in the snow. I couldn't just leave a child ... no children of our own ... always knew you wanted children. I knew you'd take it to your heart, Kari. Yes, lass. Rand is a good name. A good name."So Tam went there for a smoke break*, and found a dead woman with a rather loud baby, which he then took as loot for Kari, since he didn't have any other pretties to give her.

Which raises the question:
Ladies, which of you would be happy if your man came home with a baby?

* Smoking is bad for your health, so it makes sense that it's not allowed during a battle.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-27-2011, 09:57 AM
That interpretation, while interesting, does seem to be heavily contradicted by what Tam actually said:
So Tam went there for a smoke break*, and found a dead woman with a rather loud baby, which he then took as loot for Kari, since he didn't have any other pretties to give her.

Which raises the question:
Ladies, which of you would be happy if your man came home with a baby?

* Smoking is bad for your health, so it makes sense that it's not allowed during a battle.
There's no contradiction, I did say that Kari is probably not Tigraine, didn't I? Do we know why Tam was precisely where he was, by the way? that scene was definitely from after the battle, i.e. after his military duty had been done. So why was he rummaging around on that particular slope of the mountain?

Davian93
06-27-2011, 10:31 AM
I suspect that Tigraine had a very strong sense of duty as the Daughter Heir and that Gitara actually told her something along the lines of "You will be the mother of the Dragon Reborn and you have to go to the Waste to do it, etc etc" That would explain her determination to go to Dragonmount without resorting to compulsion...as compulsion seems somewhat out of character for Gitara.

Kimon
06-27-2011, 10:32 AM
There's no contradiction, I did say that Kari is probably not Tigraine, didn't I? Do we know why Tam was precisely where he was, by the way? that scene was definitely from after the battle, i.e. after his military duty had been done. So why was he rummaging around on that particular slope of the mountain?

The fact that Kari had red hair was probably just the pattern's, or maybe even Rand's (if his ta'veren effects could already have been in play while in the womb), way of providing a plausible cover story. After all, had Kari not had red hair, then the fact that Rand had red hair would have been even harder to explain, and made it more difficult for Tam to convince anyone that Rand was really his son.

GonzoTheGreat
06-27-2011, 10:47 AM
Or perhaps Tam would not even have picked up Rand if his hair color had not matched Kari's.

Toss the dice
06-27-2011, 11:14 AM
There's no contradiction, I did say that Kari is probably not Tigraine, didn't I? Do we know why Tam was precisely where he was, by the way? that scene was definitely from after the battle, i.e. after his military duty had been done. So why was he rummaging around on that particular slope of the mountain?

The Pattern. Duh.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-27-2011, 11:55 AM
The Pattern. Duh.

in that case I can confidently say that until opposite proof is given, my version is the one I'm going to believe. The Pattern made sure that an Aiel friend of Tigraine's developed a relationship with Tam and because Kari's intervening (all woven by the Pattern), Tam was where he was when he was at exactly the right place, the right time.

The Pattern. it weaves as it wills. Duh.

Ishara
06-27-2011, 12:01 PM
if tigraine=ygraine then le conte du Graal seems to say she is still alive, but since gawain is the one that finds her and his mom (who he believed dead), maybe it's more related to gawyn finding morgase and elayne.I'm ignoring all of this. It's not even a statement - it's just a mind dump.

but could an aes sedai maybe have healed tigraine after tam abandoned her as dead? No. He didn't abandon her as dead. She was dead. Distinction.

now i can be a hcff and have wacky views like felix. Hold up there pal. HCFF's prove themselves. Baby steps. ;)

Given her station, had Tigraine not also received Tower training as is tradition? From such an experience, it would add more weight to the words of an Aes Sedai, not to mention the weight of a Foretelling. If from Tigraine's perspective, she believes Aes Sedai cannot lie, and Foretelling come true, and if the foretelling was relayed to her in a fashion such as, 'you must go on this great journey or terrible things will happen, especially to Andor.' It would be her sense of duty as Daughter-Heir as much as anything that drove her, which makes sense for 'She who is dedicated.' This is an excellent point towards the idea that she was not Compelled, but went of her own volition. I have to agree that the sense of duty would have been very high for her. If she was told that Andor would suffer, I see that as more than enough to convince her to go.


Too bad since if Luc was a DF it would be the most plausible reason him to leave the things behind and go to the Blight.

I mean contemplate the following scenario. Luc is found out to be a DF. Family's golden boy is dark. Gitara gives him a choice. Gitara's leniency makes Tigraine feel that she owes her one. This would have factored in come Tigraine's decision to trust Gitara and drop everything.

Hard to say. We have no reason to believe that Gitara was Black, so for now I operate under the assumption that she's not. I also don't see Gitara being lenient at all in any way towards a DF and certainly not one who is an Heir to the throne of Andor. I lean more towards Lapine's observation that training in the Tower would have made her that much more receptive to a Foretelling.

I find it very interesting comparing Elayne and Tigraine and how they behave when being pregnant. Elayne is downright stupid what comes to reason and sense because she believes Min's viewing about that nothing can touch her. Maybe it was the same with Tigraine. Maybe Gitara told that you will deliver a baby that will save the world. "Now run along and take what ever risks you feel like. Go to war if you like. You are totally covered." Now this is definitely food for thought. I have never thought that Gitara told Tigraine much - because after all, knowing too much about one's own future can often result in disastrous events where people try to change their future or try to bend to it too early. It's certainly a case of less is more. Nevermind the fact that Foretellings are not exactly that detailed... But I wonder if she was told something far more vague, such as the fate of the world (or Andor) depending on her battling on Dragon Mount?

However, would it be possible that Tam knew where to be because Kari told him to go to the slopes of Dragonmount and look for a pregnant/just given birth Maiden? Interesting! Maybe Kari was a bit prescient?

Terez
06-27-2011, 12:18 PM
There's no contradiction, I did say that Kari is probably not Tigraine, didn't I? Do we know why Tam was precisely where he was, by the way? that scene was definitely from after the battle, i.e. after his military duty had been done. So why was he rummaging around on that particular slope of the mountain?
He said he went there to get away from the battle, and the smell of blood.

nameless
06-27-2011, 01:12 PM
I find it interesting that Tigraine was good enough with the bow that even the Maidens considered her skilled at that when she came to the Waste. Weapon training for women is hardly popular in Andor and among its nobility. Both Morgase and Elayne had none of that. Daughter-Heirs and Queens are expected to know about military strategy, but not to be fighters themselves. Maybe Tigraine was preparing for going to the Waste by training with the bow for some months or even years?

During Victorian times archery was considered a proper athletic passtime for young upper-class ladies, much like horseback riding is today. Maybe it had a similar role in the Andoran court?

Kimon
06-27-2011, 01:41 PM
in that case I can confidently say that until opposite proof is given, my version is the one I'm going to believe. The Pattern made sure that an Aiel friend of Tigraine's developed a relationship with Tam and because Kari's intervening (all woven by the Pattern), Tam was where he was when he was at exactly the right place, the right time.

The Pattern. it weaves as it wills. Duh.

Well, there was a ta'veren infant, freezing to death, and with an expired mom, presumably pulling at him to get his butt over to dragonmount to save him from exposure. That's not exactly proof, but it is a more simplistic explanation.

nameless
06-27-2011, 01:52 PM
He wasn't ta'veren as an infant. He only became ta'veren a few weeks before the start of the series.

Kimon
06-27-2011, 02:03 PM
He wasn't ta'veren as an infant. He only became ta'veren a few weeks before the start of the series.

Crossroads of Twilight eBook "Glimmers" Interview

Q: Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.
RJ: You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

Hard to argue against this, but Tam just happening to show up and find the infant Rand does seem like a ridiculous coincidence without Rand's ta'veren pull bringing him there. The Pattern could obviously have much the same effect, but seems less tidy of an explanation.

WinespringBrother
06-27-2011, 02:23 PM
Hard to argue against this, but Tam just happening to show up and find the infant Rand does seem like a ridiculous coincidence without Rand's ta'veren pull bringing him there. The Pattern could obviously have much the same effect, but seems less tidy of an explanation.

Week Two: July 1, 2011 – Tam al’Thor

Let's save some discussion for next week, huh? :D

The Unreasoner
06-27-2011, 02:25 PM
Kari could still have been an aiel agent. Maybe bair told her to live among the wetlanders just as gitara told tigraine to live among the aiel. She would find a man who met certain criteria, make sure he knew she wanted a child, but maybe couldn't have one herself. Bair could have told her that she would one day raise the car'a'carn.

Sorry about the mind dump. It's like the only arturian legend I actually know. And thanks for putting me in my place. I must respect the elders.

But just because tam thought she was dead doesn't mean she was. Samitsu thought Dobraine was dead until she delved him. I don't think this was the case unless she had a pattern level role yet to play though.

And after thinking about it some more, I think gitara would have had to tell tigraine she would give birth to the dragon, or something similar. Given all we know about her, especially the name she took, she devoted herself to whatever she was doing heart and soul, like Egwene. She would have lived ji'e'toh. And since her ji shouldn't have normally allowed her to enter battle with child, her toh must have set her path. She must have known her obligation was tied with the fate of the world.

looqas
06-27-2011, 03:03 PM
Hard to argue against this, but Tam just happening to show up and find the infant Rand does seem like a ridiculous coincidence without Rand's ta'veren pull bringing him there. The Pattern could obviously have much the same effect, but seems less tidy of an explanation.

Interesting thought.

Suppose Wheel makes use of anyone available. What if Rand was found by say Seamus from Illian or Altara? Then Wheel would have picked Mat's and Perrin's version (and I suppose the rest of the mains) of Illian or Altaran versions. No need for Two Rivers. Or at least I don't remember any prophecies making the Dragon to be reborn in Two Rivers, right? I'm probably wrong here, but interesting thought about Mat and Perrin being picked out of Two Rivers. It could have happened anywhere really.

Terez
06-27-2011, 03:12 PM
'He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.' And everyone seems to agree that Mat and Perrin are reborn Heroes. Rand thought about this in LOC:

CHAPTER 16 - Tellings of the Wheel

Everything folded back into itself, in endless circles. Tigraine went to the Waste in secret, which made Laman Damodred cut down Avendoraldera, a gift of the Aiel, to make a throne, an act which brought the Aiel across the Spine of the World to kill him – that had been their only goal, though the nations called it the Aiel War – and with the Aiel came a Maiden named Shaiel, who died giving birth. So many lives changed, lives ended, so she could give birth to him at the proper time and place and die doing it. Kari al’Thor was the mother he remembered, if dimly, yet he wished he could have known Tigraine or Shaiel or whatever she wanted to call herself, even if only for a little while. Just to have seen her.
Some have theorized that Lan was ta'veren at this time.

GonzoTheGreat
06-27-2011, 03:14 PM
Not about the Dragon, perhaps, but in regard to the Car'a'carn it might be more difficult to defend a place like Illian or some such.
'Blood of our blood mixed with the old blood, raised by an ancient blood not ours.'

Weird Harold
06-27-2011, 03:19 PM
If that had been her goal, then why didn't she simply stay put in Caemlyn

She may have tried to, first; but the Pattern has ways of making one do what it needs.

Consider how RJ has portrayed almost every character that knows -- or even suspects -- their Destiny. Tigraine's Destiny would be especially repugnant because she had been raised and trained to for a quite different life.

Tigraine may have run TO her destiny because she was discontent with her prospects -- the boring ritualized life of a ruling monarch, compounded by life with "a husband she didn't love."

Tigraine may have run FROM her destiny because it meant giving up the prestige and power of a ruling monarch, compounded by "a son she did love."

Hard to argue against this, but Tam just happening to show up and find the infant Rand does seem like a ridiculous coincidence without Rand's ta'veren pull bringing him there. The Pattern could obviously have much the same effect, but seems less tidy of an explanation.

Tam might well have gone to where he found Rand because of "ta'veren pull" but it would not necessarily have been Rand's ta'veren effect.

You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel.

It could have been anyone in the general vicinity -- there has been a lot of speculation that Janduin was ta'veren -- that caused both Tigraine and Tam to go to that particular spot at that particular time. It would not necesarily have been a "permanent" ta'veren; it could have been someone who was only ta'veren long enough and strong enough to turn either of them along a particular path.

For something as important as the Rebirth of the Dragon According to Prophecy I'm sure the Pattern had enough circumstances in place that ta'veren effect would be pretty much redundant. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that there were entire regiments of people whose entire place in the pattern was to be in every alternative place Tigraine or Tam might have found for the privacy they sought.

The Unreasoner
06-27-2011, 03:27 PM
You know something I only suspected before but have since confirmed, she vanished from the white tower, not caemlyn, where gitara may have been particularly convincing

GonzoTheGreat
06-27-2011, 03:35 PM
You know something I only suspected before but have since confirmed, she vanished from the white tower, not caemlyn, where gitara may have been particularly convincingThe White Tower? How is that possible?
No student less than a Daughter-Heir of Andor could possibly escape from there.

ShadowbaneX
06-27-2011, 03:57 PM
Since ST demanded it a post by me:

Question, should Tigraine's nickname be "Tiggy" or "Raine"?

I was going to suggest that they don't explicitly mention that the woman that Tam talks about in his vision is Tigraine, it could possibly have been another Maiden that took Rand to protect him and then she herself was cut down, but I just realised that given the circumstances there was probably a few more...direct links to suggest that the baby was the mother.

You happy now ST?

Davian93
06-27-2011, 04:01 PM
You know something I only suspected before but have since confirmed, she vanished from the white tower, not caemlyn, where gitara may have been particularly convincing


Quote please...

WinespringBrother
06-27-2011, 04:04 PM
You know something I only suspected before but have since confirmed, she vanished from the white tower, not caemlyn, where gitara may have been particularly convincing

Tigraine did not vanish from the White Tower. She left Andor, while Gitara was acting as her mother AKA the Queen's advisor.

Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 16 - Tellings of the Wheel
"I will thank you not to call it history, my Lord Dragon. I was a girl when it happened, but more than a child, and here in the Palace often. One morning, Tigraine simply was not in the Palace, and she was never seen again. Some claimed to see Taringail's hand in it, but he was half-mad with grief. Taringail Damodred wanted more than anything else in the world to see his daughter Queen of Andor and his son King of Cairhien. He was Cairhienin, Taringail. That marriage was meant to stop the wars with Cairhien, and it did, yet Tigraine vanishing made them think Andor wanted to break the treaty, which led them to scheme the way Cairhienin do, which led to Laman's Pride. And you of course know where that led," she added dryly. "My father said Gitara Sedai was really at fault."

As for the Pattern pulling the strings of the various actors - Tigraine, Tam, Laman, Janduin, etc... to make sure Rand was born on Dragonmount, is it necessary for a ta'veren to have intervened? Since his birth was both mentioned in the Prophecies and Gitara's foretellings (and possibly in Aiel Wise One Dreams), did his birth need additional help from the Pattern to occur correctly? It seemed like a done deal without further necessary intervention.

Weird Harold
06-27-2011, 04:05 PM
Suppose Wheel makes use of anyone available.

Given that the Wheel spins-out Heroes of the Horn decades in advance of their need, I think it unlikely that the person available would be available by chance.

The fact that Tigraine had to go to the waste and become a maiden of the spear so that Rand could fulfill prophecies like "born on the slopes of dragonmount," "born of maiden," "born of our blood," et al, suggests that the Wheel not only manipulated Tigraine, but Rand's entire ancestry/genome including careful selection of his foster parents. Tigraine and Janduin were just the final steps in a breeding program that ran at least from the time the Aiel were sent on their long trek to preserve the "Objects of Power."

The Unreasoner
06-27-2011, 04:07 PM
The White Tower? How is that possible?
No student less than a Daughter-Heir of Andor could possibly escape from there.

Well, first I think you are being sarcastic, but many people were wondering about the specifics of her departure and how she was convinced.

Second, gitara probably helped her.

WinespringBrother
06-27-2011, 04:16 PM
Well, first I think you are being sarcastic, but many people were wondering about the specifics of her departure and how she was convinced.

Second, gitara probably helped her.

He was being sarcastic, and see my response above...

The Unreasoner
06-27-2011, 04:33 PM
Seems I was mistaken:
“I will thank you not to call it history, my Lord Dragon. I was a girl when it happened, but more than a child, and here in the Palace often. One morning, Tigraine simply was not in the Palace, and she was never seen again. Some claimed to see Taringail’s hand in it, but he was half-mad with grief. Taringail Damodred wanted more than anything else in the world to see his daughter Queen of Andor and his son King of Cairhien. He was Cairhienin, Taringail. That marriage was meant to stop the wars with Cairhien, and it did, yet Tigraine vanishing made them think Andor wanted to break the treaty, which led them to scheme the way Cairhienin do, which led to Laman’s Pride. And you of course know where that led,” she added dryly. “My father said Gitara Sedai was really at fault.”
from lord of chaos
Tigraine vanished mysteriously from Tar Valon in in 972 NE, never to be heard from again.
From the wot wiki.
I learned my lesson here.

Terez
06-27-2011, 05:28 PM
From the wot wiki.
I learned my lesson here.
Apparently not, since you're using the Wiki as a source.

Zombie Sammael
06-27-2011, 05:32 PM
Apparently not, since you're using the Wiki as a source.

I think that was the lesson, Terez.

Terez
06-27-2011, 05:36 PM
Ah, okay. I see now. There's a reason why it's not in my sig link except to direct to the interviews. I wouldn't suggest using the Encyclopedia as 'confirmation' either, even though it's far more accurate than the Wiki. It's not perfect.

ShadowbaneX
06-27-2011, 05:52 PM
Every history student knows that you never use any wiki as a source...unless they can back it up elsewhere. Although even then you're using those other sources as your 'official' sources even if you first read it in the wiki.

Sei'taer
06-27-2011, 06:44 PM
Since ST demanded it a post by me:

Question, should Tigraine's nickname be "Tiggy" or "Raine"?

I was going to suggest that they don't explicitly mention that the woman that Tam talks about in his vision is Tigraine, it could possibly have been another Maiden that took Rand to protect him and then she herself was cut down, but I just realised that given the circumstances there was probably a few more...direct links to suggest that the baby was the mother.

You happy now ST?

Maybe...could she be nicknamed Tigger? That'd make me happy.

ShadowbaneX
06-27-2011, 09:07 PM
I like Tiggy better then Tigger...don't know why. Perhaps this should be the next big debate.

Res_Ipsa
06-27-2011, 09:10 PM
I like Tiggy better then Tigger...don't know why. Perhaps this should be the next big debate.

Or why there is a need to give them a nickname in the first place.

Sei'taer
06-27-2011, 09:23 PM
Or why there is a need to give them a nickname in the first place.

Because we like to, if your name is too long then we are duty-bound to change it.

The Unreasoner
06-27-2011, 11:08 PM
I think that was the lesson, Terez.

Indeed it was.
And im not a history student, but we math majors have the same instructions.

Terez is right, the wiki is ridiculous. At least the ewot indicates chapters so its data can be verified.

ShadowbaneX
06-27-2011, 11:21 PM
and "too long" is generally more than 3 characters or two syllables.

ShadowbaneX
06-27-2011, 11:22 PM
I used to like Math. Then I got a Physics Prof teaching me calculus and that ended...poorly.

Zombie Sammael
06-28-2011, 04:49 AM
I am/was a law student, and our instruction was to use a Wiki as essentially a search engine. A good wiki article cites references and sources; read the article to get a flavour, then check out the references and sources to get specific details, check facts, and use in your bibliography.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-28-2011, 05:07 AM
back when I was in Uni, our history profs would sometimes slightly "adjust" Wiki articles just to see how mindless the students are.

Davian93
06-28-2011, 10:06 AM
Overall, Wikipedia is a fantastic resource for a quick question check but not a scholarly source for anything but leads. I use Wiki all the time in that sense and all the time for casual "Hmmm...I wonder about..." type stuff.

Ishara
06-28-2011, 12:08 PM
Okay folks, a quick reminder: quote it if you can, or we may claim it never happened! ;)

Kari could still have been an aiel agent. Maybe bair told her to live among the wetlanders just as gitara told tigraine to live among the aiel. She would find a man who met certain criteria, make sure he knew she wanted a child, but maybe couldn't have one herself. Bair could have told her that she would one day raise the car'a'carn. Okay, now we're just spouting silliness. We've left the land of reasonable speculation and entered the realm of ridiculous. Come back to TL! ;)

Sorry about the mind dump. It's like the only arturian legend I actually know. I'm all for linking in legend, if it applies. To figure that part out, yu should be telling the whole relevant part of the story and linking it back to WoT.

And after thinking about it some more, I think gitara would have had to tell tigraine she would give birth to the dragon, or something similar. Given all we know about her, especially the name she took, she devoted herself to whatever she was doing heart and soul, like Egwene. She would have lived ji'e'toh. And since her ji shouldn't have normally allowed her to enter battle with child, her toh must have set her path. She must have known her obligation was tied with the fate of the world. This reasoning I actually wuite like. It links back to our knowledge and understanding of ji'e'toh and rationalizes it at least a bit. I still think that it would have been enough for her to know that Andor was at stake as opposed to the whole world, although it just occurred to me that she must have had a brutal time accepting that she's likely have to battle her own people as part of crossing the Dragon Wall. I still don't think that the foretelling had to be so detailed as to include jeopardy to the world. Andor would have been enough - and more than enough - for her to act.


Some have theorized that Lan was ta'veren at this time.
I actually do believe that that there was simply too much going on in New Spring to not consider that Lan was ta'veren, even if for only a brief perid of time. Sometimes there are just too many coincidences to add up...perhaps Lan is worthy of being a topic of discussion...but I feel like we know too much already, in large part because of NS.


As for the Pattern pulling the strings of the various actors - Tigraine, Tam, Laman, Janduin, etc... to make sure Rand was born on Dragonmount, is it necessary for a ta'veren to have intervened? Since his birth was both mentioned in the Prophecies and Gitara's foretellings (and possibly in Aiel Wise One Dreams), did his birth need additional help from the Pattern to occur correctly? It seemed like a done deal without further necessary intervention. I'd actually agree with this (although I'm aware it sort of flies in the face of what I said about lan above). The Pattern didn't need Rand or Tam to be ta'veren in this moment. It just needed Tam to be hot and overwhelmed and in need of fresh air. That was enough for him to hear baby Rand crtying, which was enough for him to find him and decide to take him home to Kari. It may be a bit too KISS, but that explanation works for me. In the cases of non-documented or confirmed cases of ta'veren (in the absence of someone like Suian or Nicola, who could tell us for sure I mean), we sort of have to gut check it.

Interesting aside - did Suian get her Talent back when she was Healed?

Crispin's Crispian
06-28-2011, 12:47 PM
No. He didn't abandon her as dead. She was dead. Distinction.


Isn't it obvious? There's no way Tigraine could be Kari because Kari was already with Tam. That simply means that Tigraine/Shaiel is Nakomi. Duh.

To tangentialize just a little...there are "rumors" that Gitara was responsible for Luc leaving, which probably means she has a Foretelling about him. Or, did she simply convince him to leave so that he wouldn't chase after Tigraine?

If there was a Foretelling or some sort of prescience, why was Luc traveling to the Blight to merge with Isam and kill Janduin so important? If there was a Foretelling, it's clear to me that Luc/Isam has a signficant role to play in the outcome of everything. This is supported by the fact that he figures in the Dark Prophecy as well. I have a feeling he won't be just a minion forever.

Terez
06-28-2011, 02:06 PM
I think he'll remain a minion, and I think his main purpose is to assassinate Rand after he dies, in Tel'aran'rhiod (though of course I don't think he'll be successful).

Toss the dice
06-28-2011, 02:56 PM
Isn't it obvious? There's no way Tigraine could be Kari because Kari was already with Tam. That simply means that Tigraine/Shaiel is Nakomi. Duh.I like that theory. I'll have to re-read that part in ToM to check her appearance.

If there was a Foretelling or some sort of prescience, why was Luc traveling to the Blight to merge with Isam and kill Janduin so important? If there was a Foretelling, it's clear to me that Luc/Isam has a signficant role to play in the outcome of everything. This is supported by the fact that he figures in the Dark Prophecy as well. I have a feeling he won't be just a minion forever.Could be anything really, from him being vital to the Light to being vital to the Shadow. Or both. And he could be vital to either one by doing something "opposite" to that specific side. For example, he could have (or will) kill a "bad" person -- which is crucial to the Light in some fashion. The Pattern is very similar to the Butterfly Effect. Who knows what actions Luc/Isam has done or will do that greatly alters the course of events?

The Unreasoner
06-28-2011, 03:48 PM
I wonder if gitara really advised him to leave, or if that was simply the most widely accepted rumor after he did. Maybe after tigraine's disappearance, which gitara was 'known' to have a hand in, when Luc took off people just assumed tar valon had designs against mantear, or to give the throne to another house.

Davian93
06-28-2011, 04:07 PM
When you think about it, its really kind of surprising that Andor still had such strong ties to the White Tower after Gitara's meddling directly caused a major civil war and the loss of their Daughter-Heir and First Prince of the Sword in Tigraine & Luc (though technically Luc never had that title as Tigraine never became Queen). You'd think that sort of meddling would have had a negative impact on their special relationship.

Zombie Sammael
06-28-2011, 04:23 PM
When you think about it, its really kind of surprising that Andor still had such strong ties to the White Tower after Gitara's meddling directly caused a major civil war and the loss of their Daughter-Heir and First Prince of the Sword in Tigraine & Luc (though technically Luc never had that title as Tigraine never became Queen). You'd think that sort of meddling would have had a negative impact on their special relationship.

The thing is that things changed again after the Succession. They had Morgase who was a student of the Tower herself on the throne, and regardless of his views Taringail would have been hard pressed to speak too negatively or too openly of the White Tower without incurring the wrath of his Tower-trained wife.

frenchie
06-28-2011, 04:42 PM
Interesting aside - did Suian get her Talent back when she was Healed?

Yes, she comments on him glowing to her eyes when he goes to the White Tower.

looqas
06-28-2011, 04:43 PM
Maybe Luc/Isam will kill Fain.

I'm going to be rather perplexed if Slayer won't play a significant part in AMoL. After all he's one of people whom Pattern has used/will use for it's designs. I would say he's almost as important as Tigraine was for things to fall in place.

Ishara
06-28-2011, 06:03 PM
To tangentialize just a little...there are "rumors" that Gitara was responsible for Luc leaving, which probably means she has a Foretelling about him. Or, did she simply convince him to leave so that he wouldn't chase after Tigraine?

If there was a Foretelling or some sort of prescience, why was Luc traveling to the Blight to merge with Isam and kill Janduin so important? If there was a Foretelling, it's clear to me that Luc/Isam has a signficant role to play in the outcome of everything. This is supported by the fact that he figures in the Dark Prophecy as well. I have a feeling he won't be just a minion forever.I agree completely - there's just too much that's unexplained about those two, and I see them as extraordinarily significant.

Yes, she comments on him glowing to her eyes when he goes to the White Tower.
In ToM. Great. I'll find the quote. Thanks.

ETA: Found it:

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 3 - The Amyrlin's Anger
Egwene entered the Hall, and then a white-dressed novice went scuttling away, tailed by two of Chubain's soldiers. Egwene had sent for the Dragon. Bryne remained with his hand on Siuan's shoulder, standing just behind her in the hallway. Siuan forced herself to be calm. Eventually, she saw motion at the end of the hallway. Around her, sisters began to glow as they embraced the Source. Siuan resisted that mark of insecurity. Soon a procession approached, Warders walking in a square around a tall figure in a worn brown cloak, twenty-six Aes Sedai following behind. The figure inside glowed to her eyes. She had the Talent of seeing ta'veren, and al'Thor was one of the most powerful of those to ever live.

Toss the dice
06-28-2011, 06:24 PM
Maybe Luc/Isam will kill Fain.

I'm going to be rather perplexed if Slayer won't play a significant part in AMoL. After all he's one of people whom Pattern has used/will use for it's designs. I would say he's almost as important as Tigraine was for things to fall in place.

I agree that he is/will be important. However, he pales in comparison to Tigraine in that regard. Being the mother of the Dragon Reborn and the circumstances around that -- I would consider her a solid #2 in this category, behind only Rand himself. Even people like Moiraine, who took Rand out of the Two Rivers and all that she did, is not higher than Tigraine for this IMO. Take out Moiraine and you obviously alter a ton of stuff, but you STILL have Rand and other path potentials when it comes to him surviving, learning, etc. Take out Tigraine...

It's all conditional of course, take out Tigraine and the DR could have been someone else, or many conditional possibilities and modifications. But since Rand IS the Dragon Reborn...Tigraine is #2 when it comes to her importance to the Pattern. After her you have Mat and Perrin, provided (and that we assume) they HAVE to be there. Thom and all others who have directly saved Rand's life are high up as well. Granted, Thom's saving of Rand in Whitebridge wasn't a sure thing, as Rand possibly could have escaped without him or even been captured and escaped later, etc. But it's pretty solid nonetheless.

[snip - moved along with responses to the Egwene thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=153373#poststop)]

My views on this specific subject again don't have much to do with how important or influential someone has been throughout the series. It specifically deals with how important they have been to the overall Pattern in this war. As Rand is really the only person that matters (as it happens along with Mat and Perrin as well), he (and they) trump all else, with the next highest ranked people being those who have directly saved their lives, whether in the short or long run. Everything else is pretty conditional and less important, given replacements, "what ifs" and alternate branches.

If you wanted to get really crazy and theoretical with the Pattern and the Butterfly Effect, you could take it to extreme lengths. A random farmer who never meets any of the characters in the series or is involved with anything major that happens, could be absolutely vital to Rand by doing something as simple as buying the last pot a peddler has for sale. Because of this, another random person had to travel to the next closest town to pick up a new pot for his wife. While in this town buying a pot, he finds four thieves mugging another man and drives off the thieves by shouting for help.

Because the thieves were driven away, the man being mugged wasn't killed or even hurt too badly. This man, because he was only a little bruised and not seriously injured, decided to go ahead and follow through on his earlier plan to travel to the NEXT town to see his sick grandfather. While walking through his grandfather's town, the bruised and sore man notices a group of people surrounding a few men in black coats. Curious, he moves in closer and listens to them talking about the Dragon Reborn. He is intrigued by their words and decides to involve himself with them, maybe he could help out the Dragon Reborn somehow. One thing leads to another and the next thing he knows, this man learns he can channel. He finds himself training in a place called the Black Tower. His name is Jahar Narishma.

All possible because some random farmer bought the last pot from a peddler. And this chain of events is very simple with few steps, spans a short period of time and even involves people as the root catalyst. Rather than say a caterpillar 200 years ago, that eats part of a leaf on a tree, causing it to fall to the ground. The leaf not being there alters the path of an unusually large acorn above it that drops to the ground, making a squirrel pick that acorn instead of another one. The squirrel chokes on the acorn and dies, so he is not food for a family a year later. Without that +1 squirrel for food, that family's father decides to do something he wouldn't have if he HAD shot the squirrel. And so on, branching out and gradually snowballing over the course of 200 years. 200 years and 500,000 steps later, the caterpillar that ate the leaf culminates in Rand sealing the Bore to the Dark One's prison. Of course, in conjunction with a seemingly infinite number of other threads large and small, stretching all the way back to the dawn of time.

Zombie Sammael
06-28-2011, 06:37 PM
It's amazing how complex just the large, obvious steps are: if LTT hadn't led the Hundred Companions to seal the bore, Saidin would never have been tainted, and the Da'shain Aiel would not have had to leave with the ter'angreal, nor would the nation of Manetheren have been founded. Without the Da'shain becoming the Aiel of the waste, there would have been Janduin, and no Shaiel, so Rand would not be around to undo the mistakes he made as LTT. The Prophecies of the Dragon are almost self-fulfilling.

Without Artur Hawkwing there would be Caemlyn, no Tigraine and no Shaiel, etc.

It's with Moridin and the Shadow that I feel this is best shown. Moridin's actions now don't represent a present conflict to him; they represent the final most desperate moves (on both sides) in a war that has been fought for nearly 4000 years (perhaps more). The sheer complexity of the causative chain of events beggars belief, and makes one wonder if such destiny in a sense exists even in our world.

David Selig
06-28-2011, 07:00 PM
When you think about it, its really kind of surprising that Andor still had such strong ties to the White Tower after Gitara's meddling directly caused a major civil war and the loss of their Daughter-Heir and First Prince of the Sword in Tigraine & Luc (though technically Luc never had that title as Tigraine never became Queen). You'd think that sort of meddling would have had a negative impact on their special relationship.
IIRC, Gitara's role in Luc and Tigraine's disappearances wasn't confirmed, it was just rumours as far as the Andoran people and the nobility knew. Dyelin for example didn't think Gitara was involved in that. Though the rumours definitely caused at least some Andorans to question the benefits of the close ties to the Tower, like Almen Bunt, who first mentioned Luc and Tigraine way back in TEOTW - he thought it would be better to send the Daughter-Heirs to study in Illian from now on instead of Tar Valon partly due to the disappearance of the previous one.

Weird Harold
06-28-2011, 07:09 PM
Maybe after tigraine's disappearance, which gitara was 'known' to have a hand in, when Luc took off people just assumed tar valon had designs against mantear, ...

That's unlikely since Luc left a year or more before Tigraine.

The Unreasoner
06-28-2011, 07:53 PM
That's unlikely since Luc left a year or more before Tigraine.

So they came up with a new explanation after Tigraine

Ishara
06-28-2011, 09:46 PM
IIRC, Gitara's role in Luc and Tigraine's disappearances wasn't confirmed, it was just rumours as far as the Andoran people and the nobility knew. Dyelin for example didn't think Gitara was involved in that. Though the rumours definitely caused at least some Andorans to question the benefits of the close ties to the Tower, like Almen Bunt, who first mentioned Luc and Tigraine way back in TEOTW - he thought it would be better to send the Daughter-Heirs to study in Illian from now on instead of Tar Valon partly due to the disappearance of the previous one.

Agreed. This doesn't include the extra leverage the Tower would have had with Morgase already there in their clutches. I think the ongoing relationship was inevitable.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-04-2011, 03:01 AM
in that case I can confidently say that until opposite proof is given, my version is the one I'm going to believe. The Pattern made sure that an Aiel friend of Tigraine's developed a relationship with Tam and because Kari's intervening (all woven by the Pattern), Tam was where he was when he was at exactly the right place, the right time.


*sigh* I hate it when I prove myself wrong. Moiraine says that Kari was from Caemlyn:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 8 - The Dragon Reborn
"Tam al'Thor left the Two Rivers as a boy, Mother. He joined the army of Illian, and served in the Whitecloak War and the last two wars with Tear. In time he rose to be a blademaster and the Second Captain of the Companions. After the Aiel War, Tam al'Thor returned to the Two Rivers with a wife from Caemlyn and an infant boy. It would have saved much, had I known this earlier, but I know it now."

I'll just steal her last line from that quote "It would have saved much, had I known this earlier, but I know it now". Oh well. the whimper of a dying theory it is.

I'm still left with the long shot of LTT's secret red-headed lover, the great great-ancestor of Rand. no proof whatsoever in defence of it (and a lot against it), I just think it'd be such a nice symmetry of blonde-brunette-red-head for both Dragons.

Ishara
07-04-2011, 08:04 AM
But maybe...Kari could have been friends of, or related to, Tigraine. How's that for symmetry?

yks 6nnetu hing
07-04-2011, 08:08 AM
But maybe...Kari could have been friends of, or related to, Tigraine. How's that for symmetry?

you mean like a trusted maid or something? but then the question remains, how did Tigraine get in contact with the maid/friend if she disappeared without a trace? it's a bit convoluted, even for me.

Ishara
07-04-2011, 10:08 AM
LOL - Well, I don't know that I support the idea that Tigraine arranged for their meeting/ marriage. I do think that there would have been a sort of poetry to her friend/ maid/ cousin meeting up with Tam in Caemlyn (follow this thought on his thread!) and getting together, where she unwittingly mothers Tigraine's child.

ArtK
07-19-2011, 07:35 PM
I'm not going to go back through the thread quote-mining. Here's how I put Tigraine together based on the various passages:

She was told by Gitara Moroso Aes Sedai that Andor, and perhaps the entire world,[1] faced disaster if she didn't go to the Aiel waste and become a maiden of the spear until "the maidens come to Tar Valen." (This 2nd hand from Amys to Rand at Rhudien.)

She became a maiden, became Janduin's lover, and crossed the Dragonwall to fight in the "Aiel War". According to Amys, she was "lost" in the final battle at Tar Valen.

She was "lost" because now that the Maidens had gone to Tar Valen, she no longer had "toh" to Andor and the world (Gitara) since the prophesy had been fulfilled. She thus set off for Andor, to fulfil her "toh" to the kingdom and child she had left behind. (I know it's a little confused, but IMO it would make sense to an Aiel.)

By my reading of New Spring, the final day's battle was east of the river. However, Dragonmount is west of it. IMO when the battle was complete she left the maidens, crossed the river, and was on her way to Andor when she ran into trouble of some sort (bandits?).

Wounded, she found her way to Dragonmount, where she gave birth, died, and Tam found her.

[1.] This contra the Wheel of Time Encyclopedia (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/g/gitara_moroso.html) which says "In 972 NE Gitara tells Tigraine that disaster will befall the world unless she goes..." I don't have the book in front of me, but I'm certain of that recollection.

Ishara
07-19-2011, 09:29 PM
She was "lost" because now that the Maidens had gone to Tar Valen, she no longer had "toh" to Andor and the world (Gitara) since the prophesy had been fulfilled. She thus set off for Andor, to fulfil her "toh" to the kingdom and child she had left behind. (I know it's a little confused, but IMO it would make sense to an Aiel.)

I have never had this thought cross my mind. New perspective - yay for you!

I like it because the end of her toh as it related to the prophecy would be met - you're right about that. But, by all accounts she loved Janduin and didn't love Tarangail. I can't see her necessarily leaving Janduin and her (albeit new) people...to do what? Get Galad and steal what was then the sole heir to Andor and bring him back to the Waste, all while hugely pregnant...? I'm not sure that plays. Do we think she knew how close she was to giving birth?

ArtK
07-19-2011, 10:51 PM
I have never had this thought cross my mind. New perspective - yay for you!

Thanks. Always glad to offer new thoughts.

I like it because the end of her toh as it related to the prophecy would be met - you're right about that. But, by all accounts she loved Janduin and didn't love Tarangail. I can't see her necessarily leaving Janduin and her (albeit new) people...to do what? Get Galad and steal what was then the sole heir to Andor and bring him back to the Waste, all while hugely pregnant...? I'm not sure that plays. Do we think she knew how close she was to giving birth?

Leaving aside several years of indoctrination in Ji'e'toh, she was a princess of Andor, and would have put her responsibilities to her realm ahead of her personal preferences. (It's quite possible she left Janduin a note, or even told him where she was going and why.)

The loss of the daughter-heir would have badly destabilized Andor, and she was needed. She also evidently never explained to Galad why she left (per Gitara Sedai's instructions), and she was probably aware that he needed her. IMO both the sense of responsibility instilled in any daughter-heir of Andor, and several years worth of indoctrination in Ji'e'Toh would have combined to send her back.

Of course, leaving a lover to return to a loveless marriage and tremendous political difficulties, she might not have made quite as much effort to defend herself as otherwise. Thus, she died on Dragonmount, serving the prophesies.

David Selig
07-20-2011, 05:55 AM
Tigraine couldn't return to the marriage with Taringail, he was already married to Morgase by that time and after spending two years in the Westlands during the Aiel War, she must've known that. And Morgase was already firmly on the Lion Throne at this point - Rand was born in 978, the Third War of Andoran Succession ended in 974 NE, so there was no need for Tigraine to return to stabilize Andor - her return would've had an opposite effect, maybe provoke another Succession War.

BlueGray
07-20-2011, 06:23 AM
*sigh* I hate it when I prove myself wrong. Moiraine says that Kari was from Caemlyn:


I'll just steal her last line from that quote "It would have saved much, had I known this earlier, but I know it now". Oh well. the whimper of a dying theory it is.

I'm still left with the long shot of LTT's secret red-headed lover, the great great-ancestor of Rand. no proof whatsoever in defence of it (and a lot against it), I just think it'd be such a nice symmetry of blonde-brunette-red-head for both Dragons.

Doesn't Lanfear have black hair?

GonzoTheGreat
07-20-2011, 06:40 AM
Doesn't Lanfear have black hair?Yes, she doesn't. Or no, she does. Whatever. Don't you deserve an ambiguous answer when you ask a question like that?
Min stared. She was the most beautiful woman Min had ever seen, with pale, smooth skin, and long, black hair, and eyes as dark as night. Her dress was a white that would make snow seem dingy, belted in silver. All her jewelry was silver. Min felt herself bristle. "What do you mean? Who are you?"Now I'm wondering when the Last Claiming is going to be. And what Nynaeve says when Rand allows Cyndane to join his harem.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-20-2011, 06:48 AM
Doesn't Lanfear have black hair?

bru·nette   

–adjective
1.
(of hair, eyes, skin, etc.) of a [B]dark color or tone.
2.
(of a person) having dark hair and, often, dark eyes and darkish or olive skin.

black is the darkest a hair colour can get, no?

Ishara
07-20-2011, 07:18 AM
(It's quite possible she left Janduin a note, or even told him where she was going and why.)

The loss of the daughter-heir would have badly destabilized Andor, and she was needed. She also evidently never explained to Galad why she left (per Gitara Sedai's instructions), and she was probably aware that he needed her. IMO both the sense of responsibility instilled in any daughter-heir of Andor, and several years worth of indoctrination in Ji'e'Toh would have combined to send her back.


Aside from the bit that David identified, where she would have known that Morgase had stabilized Andor and married Taragail, I think you had a good theory going!

But, and this is a personal feeling since we have nothing to back it up one way or the other, I don't think she did leave Janduin a note. I think she went out to fight against his wishes, and he was busy commanding his army, and she was actually and figuratively lost on the mountain. It would explain his devastation and subsequent suicide.

Kimon
07-20-2011, 09:28 AM
black is the darkest a hair colour can get, no?

This might be a cultural difference yks, but brunette is for shades of brown. Unless you are of the opinion that her hair was just dark brown rather than black, she should be considered raven-haired, not brunette.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-20-2011, 09:47 AM
This might be a cultural difference yks, but brunette is for shades of brown. Unless you are of the opinion that her hair was just dark brown rather than black, she should be considered raven-haired, not brunette.

I think it's cultural difference. to me, anybody with hair darker than potato peels is a brunette.

also, I actually *am* of the (scientifically unfounded and too lazy to find out right now) opinion that black hair pigment is just very dark brown.

The Unreasoner
07-20-2011, 11:04 AM
also, I actually *am* of the (scientifically unfounded and too lazy to find out right now) opinion that black hair pigment is just very dark brown.

It is.

Doesn't Lanfear have black hair?
in reply to...
I'm still left with the long shot of LTT's secret red-headed lover, the great great-ancestor of Rand. no proof whatsoever in defence of it (and a lot against it), I just think it'd be such a nice symmetry of blonde-brunette-red-head for both Dragons.

I don't think he even read what he quoted.

And if he did...
much easier to go after the theory on the red head grounds, than through splitting hairs on hair color.

Ishara
07-20-2011, 11:13 AM
This might be a cultural difference yks, but brunette is for shades of brown. Unless you are of the opinion that her hair was just dark brown rather than black, she should be considered raven-haired, not brunette.
I don't know where you're from, but I'd agree with yks that those with black hair fall under the brunette fold.

The Unreasoner
07-20-2011, 11:19 AM
I don't know where you're from, but I'd agree with yks that those with black hair fall under the brunette fold.

I think he might be from Chicago

GonzoTheGreat
07-20-2011, 11:23 AM
I have to say that I agree with this wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair_color), which differentiates between black and brown hair. According to this wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_hair_color_genes), there are actually different genes for the brown and black pigment.

Kimon
07-20-2011, 11:37 AM
I think he might be from Chicago

Technically I'm from Michigan, I just live in Chicago.

FelixPax
07-20-2011, 02:25 PM
Tigraine couldn't return to the marriage with Taringail, he was already married to Morgase by that time and after spending two years in the Westlands during the Aiel War, she must've known that.

What is to stop Tigraine, in theory, from returning to Andor to re-gain her place in Andor?

Granted she died somewhere on a slope of Dragonmount mountain.

Yet Tigraine was only 'declared dead', whereas nothing in her marriage contact was touched nor altered. Her son Galad retained his position, in both Cairhien & Andor.


Morgase was the second wife of Taringail, hence a 'Second'. Tigraine was the first wife, hence 'the First'. There's prior historical precedent, dated from Artur Hawkwing era. Aedmun Matherin's House would know it, no doubt.


Who would lead Andor if Tigraine returned alive? Morgase or Tigraine?

Dyelin, Ellorien, Abelle, Arathelle, Luan, Aemlyn Carand, Pelivar Coelan would have been conflicted. Each a Noble who previously supported Morgase during the succession.

Luan Norwelyn House ruled prior to Tigraine's Mantear
Tigraine Mantear House ruled prior to Morgase's Trakand.

Meanwhile Pelivar Coelan's female children perhaps would have been old enough by then to had made a claim too.

Would Andor even stay together as a State if Tigraine returned? A four way clash of Houses? Why would Danine Candraed's House from the area around Baerlon, want to stay connected to Andor then?


Back to Tigraine Mantear-Damodred, who actually killed or wounded her on Dragonmount? Was the Tower involved again?

ArtK
07-20-2011, 03:09 PM
Aside from the bit that David identified, where she would have known that Morgase had stabilized Andor and married Taragail, I think you had a good theory going!

But, and this is a personal feeling since we have nothing to back it up one way or the other, I don't think she did leave Janduin a note. I think she went out to fight against his wishes, and he was busy commanding his army, and she was actually and figuratively lost on the mountain. It would explain his devastation and subsequent suicide.

This leaves the problem of why she was on the other side of the river from the last day's battle. Could my reading of New Spring have been wrong on that subject? I went back an checked several times 'cause I certainly noticed the contradiction with Tigraine showing up on Dragonmount. (Don't have it right now.)

Her returning to Andor was the most likely reason I could see for being there. I suppose we could invoke a deus ex machina and assume Gitara Sedai gave her more foretelling that she never told anybody about. Can't say I like it, though.

The Unreasoner
07-20-2011, 08:30 PM
This leaves the problem of why she was on the other side of the river from the last day's battle.

I'm going with typo. There is precedent, after all, for RJ forgetting where DM is.

And is she even mentioned at all in NS?

FelixPax
07-20-2011, 11:57 PM
This leaves the problem of why she was on the other side of the river from the last day's battle.

Road from Tar Valon to Caemlyn exists on the Dragonmount side of the River.

Good question, indeed.


I've wondered if Gitara set-up Tigraine to die... with Tam al'Thor unknowning soldiers nearby? (RJ didn't give readers much information to work with here)


The Amyrlin Seat seemed to know where the true Dragon birth location was. The Accepted and Aes Sedai were both sent off the Island on a series of false trails.


Recollect Gitara set up at least three blood wars: Andor's 3nd war of succession, Aiel War across the Westlands, Cairhien fighting post-Aiel War. The Tower has blood on it's hands already.

Ishara
07-21-2011, 01:50 PM
New Spring is where we get the most detail about the Battle of the Shining Walls. Tigraine is not mentioned, nor is Tam for that matter, but Lan's position in the army gives us the detail.