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Spidy
06-29-2011, 11:06 AM
Lots of people hate speculation on this board unless backed up by quotes, interviews etc.

Well, I love speculation so here we go.

The books were originally meant to be 3. We are now at 13 or 14 depending on how you split AmoL.

The Shadow Rising is often the HCFF favourite book and it is mine + Lord of Chaos (just because it doesn't have a 'The' at the Start)

tSR is book 4.

For LB plots and End of Age outcomes, I suggest we should be looking at The Dragon Reborn as the best guide to everything, all other books are explanation, gap fillers.

Over to you Thankandara Faithful.

looqas
06-29-2011, 11:09 AM
I also seem to remember that Rand was supposed to be an old man when RJ started drafting WoT.

Lately I've wondered how it would have went if Thom = Rand.

The Unreasoner
06-29-2011, 11:25 AM
I have always thought the most valuable thematic foreshadowing occurred in books 1-3.

I think you could use a similar principle now, on the last three books intended as one.

Timeline jumps, odd blindspots, stalling...for instance, the black tower is behind in timelines, no one gives it much thought, and other storylines are lengthened. Perhaps moving too far forward with any one storyline has spoilers for them all. A DF Ashaman assault on merrilor, perhaps?

Res_Ipsa
06-29-2011, 01:01 PM
I also seem to remember that Rand was supposed to be an old man when RJ started drafting WoT.

Lately I've wondered how it would have went if Thom = Rand.

Does anyone know an epic fantasy series where the series main protagonist(s) is older? It seems everything I read is so concerned with the vitality of youth and older characters are merely ancillary.

nameless
06-29-2011, 01:09 PM
Elenium by Eddings has a middle-aged protagonist, but he's the sort of "I'm too old for this crap" action hero middle-aged that doesn't actually stop him from doing all the ridiculous youthful stunts.

Kimon
06-29-2011, 01:17 PM
Does anyone know an epic fantasy series where the series main protagonist(s) is older? It seems everything I read is so concerned with the vitality of youth and older characters are merely ancillary.

Roland Deschain from the Dark Tower series, but yeah, definitely the majority tend to be teenage boy (or teenage girl) saves the world - probably has something to do with the age of the target audiences...

jana
06-29-2011, 01:57 PM
It's also easier to write about a younger character changing drastically. Old people are set in their ways.

Weird Harold
06-29-2011, 03:11 PM
It's also easier to write about a younger character changing drastically. Old people are set in their ways.
That is true, but RJ seems to take the youth movement further than simple convenience. There is a strong "never trust anyone over thirty" mantra from the 60s and 70s in the WOT. Stretched a bit to cover Slowing and a few exceptions, like Thom.

GonzoTheGreat
06-29-2011, 03:15 PM
Does anyone know an epic fantasy series where the series main protagonist(s) is older? It seems everything I read is so concerned with the vitality of youth and older characters are merely ancillary.Prince Corwin in Zelazny's Amber series is a couple of centuries old. Of course, in his particular family that means he's just about old enough to have to shave regularly, but still ...

Then there's Thomas Covenant, who is definitely not too bothered with "the vitality of youth".

And of course Bilbo Baggins isn't really all that young either when he starts having adventures.

It may not be fantasy, technically (it's actually hard science fiction), but Louis Wu, the protagonist of Niven's Ringworld series, is celebrating his 200th birthday on the first page of the first book.

looqas
06-29-2011, 03:43 PM
Elenium by Eddings has a middle-aged protagonist, but he's the sort of "I'm too old for this crap" action hero middle-aged that doesn't actually stop him from doing all the ridiculous youthful stunts.

If that is where the hero is named Sparhawk then it was what I had in mind too. And also King's Dark Tower series, but it seems the fantasy is almost always coming of an age kind of saga.

R.A. Salvatore's Drizzt Do'urden series is kind of in between.

Sei'taer
06-29-2011, 03:45 PM
Prince Corwin in Zelazny's Amber series is a couple of centuries old. Of course, in his particular family that means he's just about old enough to have to shave regularly, but still ...

And of course Bilbo Baggins isn't really all that young either when he starts having adventures.

It may not be fantasy, technically (it's actually hard science fiction), but Louis Wu, the protagonist of Niven's Ringworld series, is celebrating his 200th birthday on the first page of the first book.

All great books, I recommend reading them all.

Then there's Thomas Covenant, who is definitely not too bothered with "the vitality of youth".

This series blows ass harder than Ivhon after a fancy chili cook-off and bean jamboree deep in the heart of Texas. I would stay away from it and I wouldn't listen to Bela about it either.

Rand al'Fain
06-29-2011, 07:51 PM
Let's see;
Temeraire: Lawrence is a middle-aged former ship's captain turned dragon captain (it's the Napoleonic wars, except this world has intelligent dragons in it).

Sister Alice: I think the main character is like 60 something, but considering that he's practically immortal, he could be considered a kid. And Alice (whom the book ultimately shapes around) is, at the time, well into her hundreds, if not thousands.

The Witcher: Never personally read it, but it seems to be about a monster hunter well into his 30s or 40s.

looqas
06-30-2011, 12:04 AM
Lews Therin Telamon was pretty old when Mierin started that nightmare.

sandoz12
06-30-2011, 01:51 AM
I always thought the reason behind the teen protagonists was simply that RJ wanted to appeal to a teen audience.

looqas
06-30-2011, 06:29 AM
I always thought the reason behind the teen protagonists was simply that RJ wanted to appeal to a teen audience.

If I remember correctly why he abandoned the old man Dragon Reborn thing was because the writing turned out to hit a wall or be very hard. I have a recollection that he said "when he changed the hero to be a young man the project started rolling" or something like that. Some WoT geek can probably dig the exact info out ;)


Sorry Spidey. I managed to derail your thread completely from the get-go.

Zombie Sammael
06-30-2011, 09:46 AM
This series blows ass harder than Ivhon after a fancy chili cook-off and bean jamboree deep in the heart of Texas. I would stay away from it and I wouldn't listen to Bela about it either.

It's great, I really like the complexity, the layering of reality and fantasy and the notion that truth lies in the eye of the paradox. I like the way concepts are real characters. Lord Foul is a great Dark Lord type villain as well.

So don't listen to Bela about it, I guess. Listen to me.

Ishara
06-30-2011, 11:13 AM
F'lar and F'nor are no spring chickens, but I'm not sure I'd call them main protagonists...

But!

Alessan is not young in Tigana, Blaise is easily in his early 30's in A Song for Arbonne, both Rodrigo and Ammar are in their 40s in the Lions of Al Rassan, and even the 5 in the Fionavar Tapestry are all in their mid-twenties. Crispin is in his late 30's/ early 40's in the Sarantine Mosaic. I'd say that the exception is Ned in Ysabel (15), Bern and Alun are both still very young (early 20's at the most) in the Last Light of the Sun, and possibly Shen Tai in Under Heaven. I'd say likely though that Tai mid-to-late 20's as well, so more in line with the 5 from Fionavar.

Clearly Guy Gavriel Kay is awesomer than even I had thought. ;)

yks 6nnetu hing
06-30-2011, 12:33 PM
F'lar and F'nor are no spring chickens, but I'm not sure I'd call them main protagonists...

But!

Alessan is not young in Tigana, Blaise is easily in his early 30's in A Song for Arbonne, both Rodrigo and Ammar are in their 40s in the Lions of Al Rassan, and even the 5 in the Fionavar Tapestry are all in their mid-twenties. Crispin is in his late 30's/ early 40's in the Sarantine Mosaic. I'd say that the exception is Ned in Ysabel (15), Bern and Alun are both still very young (early 20's at the most) in the Last Light of the Sun, and possibly Shen Tai in Under Heaven. I'd say likely though that Tai mid-to-late 20's as well, so more in line with the 5 from Fionavar.

Clearly Guy Gavriel Kay is awesomer than even I had thought. ;)

not.. entirely fantasy, but Outlander series starts with main protagonists in their late 20's in the first book but for the rest it's 40's and later.

Marie Curie 7
06-30-2011, 12:59 PM
If I remember correctly why he abandoned the old man Dragon Reborn thing was because the writing turned out to hit a wall or be very hard. I have a recollection that he said "when he changed the hero to be a young man the project started rolling" or something like that. Some WoT geek can probably dig the exact info out ;)

Yes, they probably can...

MSN eFriends interview 11 November 1998

Jimbo3: Did you create Rand, Matt, and Perrin one at a time or all together?

RJ: One at a time...in fact, when I first started thinking of what would turn into The Wheel of Time, Rand and his foster father were one character. Not a 50-ish man and his teenage foster son. But a man in his 30's who had run away from a quiet country village seeking adventure, had become a soldier, and now after 20 years of that, world weary and tired. Who has come home to his pastoral village seeking peace and quiet, only to find that the world and prophecy are hard on his heels. You can see that that's a much different character that what I ended up with when I started writing. I may actually use *him* someday.


Netherlands tour, Dromen and Demonen chat - 6 April 2001

Wooga: How come the first character you came up with isn't a 30-year-old Rand anymore? When did this change?

RJ: The first character I came up was not a 30-year-old Rand, it was that the first version of Rand was a 30-year-old man. I changed that because I wanted the character of Rand to find everything beyond his village to be strange and new.

2ply4what?!
06-30-2011, 01:44 PM
Original Rand sounds like Androl.

GonzoTheGreat
07-01-2011, 03:36 AM
Original Rand sounds like Androl.Which, of course, is an anagram for Ol'Rand. Which, in turn, shows that Androl should really have been spelled with a double D.

Zombie Sammael
07-01-2011, 03:59 AM
Which, of course, is an anagram for Ol'Rand. Which, in turn, shows that Androl should really have been spelled with a double D.

Funny story: I spent the first half of TEOTW thinking "Myrddraal" should be pronounced "Myrthraal" because I'd previously read Stephen Lawhead's Arthurian books with the Welsh pronunciation, and Katherine Kerr with the Celtic.