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greatwolf
06-30-2011, 01:31 PM
The older Green nodded, flipping her reins idly against the palm of her riding glove. "Martine Janata also knew what she was doing, so I understand," she said casually. "She was the last sister to really make a business of studying ter’angreal. She did it for over forty years, almost from the time she reached the shawl. She was careful, too, so I was told. Then one day, Martine’s maid found her unconscious on the floor of her sitting room. Burned out." Even in a conversational tone, those words were a sharp slap. Vandene’s voice did not alter a hair, though. "Her Warder was dead from the shock. Not unusual in cases like that. When Martine came to, three days later, she couldn’t recall what she had been working with. She couldn’t remember the preceding week at all. That was more than twenty-five years ago, and no one since has had the nerve to touch any of the ter’angrealthat were in her rooms. Her notes mentioned every last one, and everything she had discovered was innocuous, innocent, even frivolous, but... " Vandene shrugged. "She found something she wasn’t expecting."

The conventional AS view was that MJ (setalle) was burned out while testing a terangreal. But I think the assumption is suspect for several reasons. First, Vandene herself notes that MJ had been careful for 40 years. So why would she suddenly make a mistake?

The second is the assumption that the burnout, loss of conciousness and one week memory loss were caused by a terangreal. Rather questionable. AS cannot tell the difference between burnout and stilling by delving. The AS claim no terangreal performs more than one function. Would a terangreal really cause both burnout and memory loss? We can assume that loss of consciousness is a result of either burnout or the memory loss or even both, but burnout itself has never been associated with memory loss before.

And I don't think its likely that if the terangreal caused memory loss, it would also result in burnout as well.

The third thing to bear in mind here is that it is rather unlikely that the AS investigating the incident checked for saidin. Or even to discover what saidar weaves MJ might have been using at the time. So if she was stilled, they wouldn't have any idea. All they had to go on was that she was working on terangreal, hence the inevitable outcome was of course to declare it burnout.

The little we know of terangreal study from Elayne and avi doesn't support the supposition either. Avi can tell what terangreal do without channeling. Elayne makes terangreal, but she usually uses the least amount of the OP possible. So verdraw was quite unlikely.

But Moridin admitted he'd been keeping tabs on terangreal. Likely he knew about her study and might have had reason to intervene. ( e.g. MJ must have been helping Cadsuane with her terangreal before the incident) The question I have most problem with is why?

We know Moridin could easily be the culprit. He could have wiped her memory and killed the warder but why bother? What did she know?

The Unreasoner
06-30-2011, 02:45 PM
oh I agree that the black ajah may be behind the majority of 'ter'angreal deaths'. It fits with his agenda of knowledge suppression.

But I think if it was moridin himself, the memory is well and truly gone. unless nynaeve gets her hands on her.

Toss the dice
06-30-2011, 02:50 PM
The whole "concept" or "moral" of the story of Setalle Anan was that she was an extremely careful and no doubt patient woman. She loved to study ter'angreal and they were her life's work. But ter'angreal can be very dangerous and can do unexpected things. You never know what might set them off, what the trigger(s) is. You don't know what they do in the first place, until you figure it out. You don't know who made them.

So yeah, the moral is -- even though Martine Janata was very careful in her study of ter'angreal, after the course of decades studying them she finally was beaten. The odds caught up, she was unlucky, whatever. That can happen when you study things no one really knows anything about.

Verin may have called it a mistake - and it very well could have been - but considering the nature of what she was studying, the lack of knowledge she and others had regarding specific pieces - the line between mistake and ignorance pretty much fuses together. It just so happened that this particular ter'angreal stilled her and causes memory loss, rather than any one of a whole slew of more minor consequences, which she no doubt went through many, many times. It was the nature of her work.

Enigma
06-30-2011, 02:51 PM
I was going to ask was Ishamael free around that time then I rememberd that he killed what ever BA sister started the "vileness." That was around 20years ago. The quesion is was he about before that.

The impression I had from what we know of Fain's recrutement was that even just a few years before the begining of TEotW was that he was still mostly bound and could only be seen in vavering images and one had to be near SG to get a clear reception. If Ishamael was only just being able to influence the world could he had gone as far as Tar Valon and activly channeled there to activate or meddle with a ter'angreal?

The Unreasoner
06-30-2011, 02:56 PM
well, he did kill jarna malari, with a ter'angreal, no less.

Heinz
06-30-2011, 05:02 PM
While I like the thought, and would like for Setalle to be Healed at some point, I'm not sure its possible. I don't have quotes in front of me at work, I apologize for that. But I recall in LoC, when Nyn was working with Siuan and Leane, Nyn had them try the a'dam bracelet on to see if they could feel anything at all. While they could not control Mog with it, they could sense her emotions.

In.. Winter's Heart (or was it PoD?) I believe, when Mat is forming his plots for leaving Ebou Dar, one of his first attempts was to have Setalle wear the bracelet of an a'dam which was connected to Joline. Joline collapsed in spasms when she tried to move, and Setalle did not seem to be able to feel anything.

I took that to mean that the Stilled Siuan and Leane still had some link with the OP to have some effect of the a'dam. A Burned Out Setalle, however, was as bad as a non-channeler, and the effect was Joline spasming as if she was trying to pick up and move the bracelent without a sul'dam connecting them.

Weird Harold
06-30-2011, 05:04 PM
The second is the assumption that the burnout, loss of conciousness and one week memory loss were caused by a terangreal. Rather questionable.

Martine Janata suffered sufficient shock and trauma to kill her warder through the bond. Highly traumatic events which cause injury are often associated with memory loss, especially of events associated with the cause of the trauma.

Severing is a neat and precise destruction of one particular biological or metphysical appendage.

Burnout is a traumatic overload of all aspects of Channeling ability and the physical and metaphysical appendages required to control channeling -- and possibly adjacent physical/metaphysical appendages. It isn't unreasonable to suspect brain damage, similar to stroke symptoms, that cause memory loss in addition to whatever direct insult to channeling ability might be involved.

If you must suspect foul play, why not consider that Ishamael might have warded certain ter'angreal before letting the BA sequester them in the tower? That could produce the same result without any need for Ishamael to be out on furlough and directly involved.

Again if foul play is suspected, why did the perpetrator(s) just still her and kill her warder when killing her too would eliminate all possibility of her remembering what brought on the foul play -- an attempt to recruit her to the BA, perhaps?

The Aes Sedai of the White Tower have proven themselves incompetent and gullible in so many ways, the investigation into Matrine Janata's mishap undoubtedly was botched, but the fact that she lived when her warder died makes foul play a remote possibility, IMHO.

jana
06-30-2011, 05:17 PM
I took that to mean that the Stilled Siuan and Leane still had some link with the OP to have some effect of the a'dam. A Burned Out Setalle, however, was as bad as a non-channeler, and the effect was Joline spasming as if she was trying to pick up and move the bracelent without a sul'dam connecting them.

I agree, even though I want her to be healed and then go up to Tuon and say "'sup, friend?"

looqas
07-01-2011, 12:55 AM
I agree, even though I want her to be healed and then go up to Tuon and say "'sup, friend?"

All it takes for Setalle Anan is to take one trip to the Finnland. Ooops! Doors are gone ;)

I want her to be able to channel again too, but unless it's going to be Nynaeve's final healing heroic I can't see it happening.

The Unreasoner
07-01-2011, 02:45 AM
Severing is the removal of the appendix through surgery, burning out is the removal of the appendix by shotgun. One is easier to heal than the other.

Heinz
07-01-2011, 08:50 AM
All it takes for Setalle Anan is to take one trip to the Finnland. Ooops! Doors are gone ;)

I want her to be able to channel again too, but unless it's going to be Nynaeve's final healing heroic I can't see it happening.

Yea, I have wondered if Setalle would be Healed by Nyn and/or Flynn based on the 'anything short of death can be Healed' theme. I could have sworn I was reading elsewhere on this forum (ages ago) that Burning Out can't be Healed though, from an interview quote. But now I'm trying to search through the interview database to find it and I can't, so perhaps I imagined that and it may be possible after all.

If so, a Healed Setalle would be an interesting addition to Mat's influence on Fortuona.

GonzoTheGreat
07-01-2011, 09:52 AM
The interview quote, with the comment I added to it at the time (I wrote down this particular one):
Being burned out is different from being stilled. The latter is not as severe as the former.
Gonzo: this is just as I expected, or at least in no way in contrast with it. :)As far as I know, RJ has not said explicitly that being burned out is impossible to heal, but he did say that the method used for healing severing would not work.

Toss the dice
07-01-2011, 05:26 PM
I've always wanted Setalle to be Healed too, and figured there was plenty of time remaining for it to happen. I've also never been one of those that finds foreshadowing in every single sentence of the books, but Setalle's possible Healing was foreshadowed over and over again. It would have been awesome.

Unfortunately (for other reasons as well), TGS was big disappointment in the evolution of Mat's storyline. I had a general idea of where he and those with him would go and how it would/could play out - and none of it was even remotely close to what I had visualized. Coincidentally, it wasn't good either. At all.

That said, I also am of the belief that being burnt out can't be Healed, due to the evidence and logic. While I still would like to see Nynaeve miraculously Heal Setalle, I just don't see it happening. I don't think there's time for it, I don't think using a small portion of what little time is left for it would be smart, and the way Mat's group's storyline has evolved -- it would be rather anti-climactic to me. Almost makes me want to re-do parts of TGS and ToM myself, incorporating it into the parts that are fine. Would be a hell of a better story.

nameless
07-01-2011, 05:58 PM
Setalle's biggest achievement is the way she made a life for herself without saidar. As she's the only person we know of to survive One Power withdrawal, I think it would be a little disappointing if her storyline ended with her Healed and addicted to saidar again.

Toss the dice
07-01-2011, 07:05 PM
Setalle's biggest achievement is the way she made a life for herself without saidar. As she's the only person we know of to survive One Power withdrawal, I think it would be a little disappointing if her storyline ended with her Healed and addicted to saidar again.

You know, that reminds me of my perspective of channeling, and specifically of losing that ability or the prospect of such.

I have no doubt that losing the ability to channel is horrible, much worse than say going through the withdrawal of smoking. But at the same time, it seems like there isn't any actual physical withdrawal symptoms. You could channel before, now you cannot.

This makes me think losing the ability to channel is more just a loss of something great. My thoughts on this are hard to explain. The impression we get from the books is that losing saidar (or saidin) is just a horrible thing, one that makes you lose the will to live. But somehow I find that hard to comprehend, given the information we have been given. If being stilled or burned out is simply the absence of being able to channel, the absence of something wonderful, I don't see what the earth-shattering deal is. They're now just like normal people. You would think you could get over that.

From the information we know, it makes them sound rather weak-willed and spoiled, given their reaction. Like some rich millionaire used to the posh life, suddenly reduced to a middle-class lifestyle and wanting to kill themselves.

Given this pov and assuming this is correct, if I was a random Joe in Randland who encountered a former channeler who had been stilled/gentled and told me their sob story -- I wouldn't exactly have a lot of sympathy for them.

Edit: Perhaps the millionaire analogy wasn't the best match. Perhaps a better one would be losing the great love of your life. Horrible stuff. But at the same time, channeling is a gift that relatively few receive. Love is something possible to everyone. I don't know -- comparing it to this new analogy obviously makes it sound much worse. And yet it is still a gift, a relative thing that non-channelers never had or knew.

Rand al'Fain
07-01-2011, 07:37 PM
I have no doubt that losing the ability to channel is horrible, much worse than say going through the withdrawal of smoking. But at the same time, it seems like there isn't any actual physical withdrawal symptoms. You could channel before, now you cannot.In case you forgot, whenever someone draws upon the One Power, the feel more alive, all their senses become sharper, etc. And from the side effects of being cutoff (be it in a stedding, stilled/gentled, or burned out) it sounds like the side effects are more attuned to say, heroin or cocaine. Like you can't live without them after so long (look at Logain, he was going for awhile, but he was shutting down bit by bit). The only difference is that if a person can find something to fulfill their lives just as much, they'll live (Siuan, Leane, and our favorite innkeeper from Altara).

This makes me think losing the ability to channel is more just a loss of something great. My thoughts on this are hard to explain. The impression we get from the books is that losing saidar (or saidin) is just a horrible thing, one that makes you lose the will to live. But somehow I find that hard to comprehend, given the information we have been given. If being stilled or burned out is simply the absence of being able to channel, the absence of something wonderful, I don't see what the earth-shattering deal is. They're now just like normal people. You would think you could get over that.
It's not just that, it is also the longer lifespan, the heightened senses, and the feeling of being more alive. It's not like a caffienne addiction where after a few days of not having any you'll be fine, no, this is something far stronger, more akin to what heroin and crack cocaine do to addicts of those people.

Toss the dice
07-01-2011, 10:44 PM
In case you forgot, whenever someone draws upon the One Power, the feel more alive, all their senses become sharper, etc. And from the side effects of being cutoff (be it in a stedding, stilled/gentled, or burned out) it sounds like the side effects are more attuned to say, heroin or cocaine. Like you can't live without them after so long (look at Logain, he was going for awhile, but he was shutting down bit by bit). The only difference is that if a person can find something to fulfill their lives just as much, they'll live (Siuan, Leane, and our favorite innkeeper from Altara).


It's not just that, it is also the longer lifespan, the heightened senses, and the feeling of being more alive. It's not like a caffienne addiction where after a few days of not having any you'll be fine, no, this is something far stronger, more akin to what heroin and crack cocaine do to addicts of those people.

None of those things are actual physical withdrawal symptoms though. They are the LACK of having a gift non-channelers never had.

Setalle proved that being stilled or burned out isn't fatal. In fact, it doesn't negatively alter you physically at all. The only apparent physical change is the fact that you now look twenty again! That is no doubt related to the Oath Rod, but I still count that a positive in this context for modern-day Aes Sedai. Other than this, nothing "tangible" has been changed to your body. You are just as "healthy" as you were before. You just won't live as long, can't channel, etc.

What I'm getting at is that the toll on a person being burned out or stilled is MENTAL. Not physical, as such. Any of those that die, died solely from their own lost will to live. I'm not making light of their loss, just saying that from a certain angle, non-channelers may find their "plight" rather silly or ironic - considering they now are no different from themselves. Any and all emotional anguish aside from losing a Warder (obviously not from the Bond) or any other bad experience that accompanied losing the ability to channel -- is all of their own making.

How unpleasant or terrible having been stilled or burned out is - is however bad they want to make it. In my opinion, the history of the Aes Sedai in this Age and their indoctrination and beliefs don't help matters. They pretty much revere THEMSELVES as superior beings to non-channelers, high above them. We know losing the ability to channel in the AOL (such as punishment) was bad as well, but at least they didn't have the added degradation and humiliation of being reduced to "bugs" that the current Aes Sedai have.

The Unreasoner
07-01-2011, 10:56 PM
im sure knowing that the average joe never knew what they lacked is a huge comfort to those who have lost the power.

I think you are looking at it wrong. the weight we give sight, plus the weight a meth head gives meth, is pale next to the weight channellerrs give the power. to them, it's more like being blindfolded and joining the blind. it was never something extra, it is part of them.

and setalle is generally seen as an exception.

Weird Harold
07-01-2011, 11:04 PM
That said, I also am of the belief that being burnt out can't be Healed, due to the evidence and logic. While I still would like to see Nynaeve miraculously Heal Setalle, I just don't see it happening. I don't think there's time for it, I don't think using a small portion of what little time is left for it would be smart, ...

I think being burnt out CAN be Healed, at least theoretically. It would be several orders of magnitude more difficult than Healing severing, and solving the problem could theoretically lead to the capability to instill the ability to Channel into people who were born non-channelers. But Healing burn-out IS possible -- just very, very, very unlikely. Especially since every burn-out case is likely to require unique reconstruction of Channeling ability.

We won't see Setalle or any other burn-out victim Healed before the series ends and in a century or two, it will be a moot point as the OP recedes from the ability for humans to contact it. The story isn't headed in that direction before T'G and there's just not enough story left to include it.

Toss the dice
07-01-2011, 11:19 PM
im sure knowing that the average joe never knew what they lacked is a huge comfort to those who have lost the power.

I think you are looking at it wrong. the weight we give sight, plus the weight a meth head gives meth, is pale next to the weight channellerrs give the power. to them, it's more like being blindfolded and joining the blind. it was never something extra, it is part of them.

and setalle is generally seen as an exception.

Actually, it wasn't a part of them until they were 15-20 or so, on average. Not from their perspective.

Also, Setalle is really only one of three people stilled or burned out that we know about pre-Healing. The other two were Algarin's brother and Owyn, Thom's nephew - they did lose the will to live, although Algarin took years. Other than them, we have six others who were stilled/gentled and did not die, albeit they were Healed later. (Logain, Siuan, Leane, three Rand stilled)

Trying not to use the above cases TOO much in my reasoning, I would be willing to bet way more stilled Aes Sedai have lived than you think. However, it's hard to know that (and more importantly for the Aes Sedai to know that), because the women are encouraged to go away, essentially so they "can die." I'm also willing to bet there are plenty of Martine Janata's out there, and she may actually have been one of the bad cases - being sick and near death on the streets of Ebou Dar.

I guess my main point here is that we simply have very little to go on when it comes to what happens to stilled/burned out Aes Sedai. But we DO have plenty of proof that being stilled is NOT an automatic death sentence. Since the start of TEotW, six people we know about have lost the ability to channel, and all six of them are still alive. Even considering all of them were Healed after a time, 6/6 is MUCH better when it comes to a demonstration of odds than say 2/2 or 3/3. The odds are still well over half when you count all the ones we know about. Is it so hard to believe that well over half of stilled Aes Sedai could continue living?

The Unreasoner
07-01-2011, 11:37 PM
i actually always thought more women survived than thought, hence the 'generally' seen as an exception.

but definitely there is virtually no evidence. i believe it is far less than half though. maybe a dozen, all in, and more women than men. of couse this is all just speculation.

GonzoTheGreat
07-02-2011, 03:17 AM
I think that healing a burned out channeler would be no simpler than healing back Rand's burned away hand. Maybe not entirely impossible, but orders of magnitude away from what is feasible even for Nynaeve.

And maybe losing the ability to channel would be like a very accomplished musician going deaf and blind. That person can then remember what music was like, but can no longer experience it any more. And since music was at the core of his life, desperation is quite understandable.

greatwolf
07-02-2011, 11:47 AM
Burnout is a traumatic overload of all aspects of Channeling ability and the physical and metaphysical appendages required to control channeling -- and possibly adjacent physical/metaphysical appendages. It isn't unreasonable to suspect brain damage, similar to stroke symptoms, that cause memory loss in addition to whatever direct insult to channeling ability might be involved.


Stroke usually affects either motor/speech areas or the sensory areas and very rarely both. Those often result in death. Similarly, Setalle's injuries are quite different. Memory loss is nothing similar to burn out. We've not seen any of those stilled so far experiencing memory loss. There are upto fifty cases of burn out among the ashaman as of TPoD, but nothing to suspect there was even coma associated, forget memory loss.

Also, you might have noticed memory loss was very specific - confined to one week preceding the event. Enough to cover one's tracks and also whatever clues that might have led setalle to whatever she was working on at the time.

We've seen Ishy tampering with minds enough to recognise his style here. He's definitely a good candidate for this. Like I said earlier, the problem is the motive. Would he do it to prevent here studying terangreal? Or Was she onto something specific?

The prophecies concerning setalle indicate the latter, but there are many ways this could still end up.

If you must suspect foul play, why not consider that Ishamael might have warded certain ter'angreal before letting the BA sequester them in the tower? That could produce the same result without any need for Ishamael to be out on furlough and directly involved.


All the terangreal in room were mentioned in her notes, therefore it was not a first contact case for any of these terangreal. If the ward wasn't triggered the first time she tried (maybe even more than once), then what triggered it?


Again if foul play is suspected, why did the perpetrator(s) just still her and kill her warder when killing her too would eliminate all possibility of her remembering what brought on the foul play -- an attempt to recruit her to the BA, perhaps?


A dead AS is always a cause of concern for the other AS. It would have been investigated with a toothpick.



Severing is the removal of the appendix through surgery, burning out is the removal of the appendix by shotgun. One is easier to heal than the other.

I think this is an over simplification that we're getting into. If burnout or even stilling were merely a physical injury, then the crude AS healing that heals everything would have healed it long since.

I think the key to nyn's healing of stilling was the "bridging" idea. One gets the sense of a reattachment being made to something beyond the human body allowing channeling to resume. We know channeling involves both physical and soul (metaphysical) factors. Healing of both stilling and burnout would require the weaves to affect both the soul and the body in both cases.


Also, Setalle is really only one of three people stilled or burned out that we know about pre-Healing. The other two were Algarin's brother and Owyn, Thom's nephew - they did lose the will to live, although Algarin took years. Other than them, we have six others who were stilled/gentled and did not die, albeit they were Healed later. (Logain, Siuan, Leane, three Rand stilled)

Of all these, only setalle was burned out. So its more of 1/1 than 1/3. Perhaps all the burned out AS are still alive but i think setalle wasn't a case of burn out.

I think being burnt out CAN be Healed, at least theoretically. It would be several orders of magnitude more difficult than Healing severing, and solving the problem could theoretically lead to the capability to instill the ability to Channel into people who were born non-channelers.

I doubt that. Channeling requires both a soul that can, and a body that can. What I'd like to think of as the body organ for channeling and the equivalent soul organ. And likely a link between the two. As I said above, the problem is likely more metaphysical but even if the metaphysical injury were healed, the subject would not be able to channel without a body that is capable. So non channelers who lack these attributes in the first place cant be healed.


I was going to ask was Ishamael free around that time then I rememberd that he killed what ever BA sister started the "vileness." That was around 20years ago. The quesion is was he about before that.

We don't know Ishy's time cycles but Setalle had being studying over a forty year period. There fore Ishy must have been around at some point (the bogeyman visits every forty years). He must have known about her.

The Unreasoner
07-02-2011, 01:54 PM
That was really just a metaphor. But I agree it is the bridging, but with something, fire and spirit. There is something missing that goes beyond the body's ability to heal itself, like a hand or appendix.

jana
07-02-2011, 02:02 PM
Can we get a character limit for signatures? It's kind of annoying having to scroll down an entire page to get to the next post.

Weird Harold
07-02-2011, 05:20 PM
Memory loss is nothing similar to burn out. We've not seen any of those stilled so far experiencing memory loss.

The meory loss would not necessarily have to be directly related to the burn-out, but could be caused by traumatic circumstances that led to burn-out.

There are upto fifty cases of burn out among the ashaman as of TPoD, but nothing to suspect there was even coma associated, forget memory loss.

Every case of burn-out is unique; other than consequences directly related to the loss of Channeling, such as suicidal depression, nothing can be deduced or proven by anecdotal evidence of other cases.

A dead AS is always a cause of concern for the other AS. It would have been investigated with a toothpick.

Yep, the White Tower has a long history of turning up evidence of foul play in so many cases of the BA murdering rejected recruits and amyrlins. /sarcasm

In the specific case of Martine Janata, a melted ter'angreal and a crispy corpse would have let to an instant verdict of "we told her that was dangerous." It would have been far less risky to do away with her completely that risk possible recovery of memories or detection of tampering. (not that the White Tower could detect "Tampering" at that point even with detailed instructions, and neon signs pointing at the evidence.)

greatwolf
07-03-2011, 03:12 PM
The meory loss would not necessarily have to be directly related to the burn-out, but could be caused by traumatic circumstances that led to burn-out.


Could? Are holding a straw here by any chance?


Every case of burn-out is unique; other than consequences directly related to the loss of Channeling, such as suicidal depression, nothing can be deduced or proven by anecdotal evidence of other cases.


Which cases are you talking about?


Yep, the White Tower has a long history of turning up evidence of foul play in so many cases of the BA murdering rejected recruits and amyrlins. /sarcasm



Accepted. But Ishy isn't the WT and would preferably not leave things like that to chance.


In the specific case of Martine Janata, a melted ter'angreal and a crispy corpse would have let to an instant verdict of "we told her that was dangerous." It would have been far less risky to do away with her completely that risk possible recovery of memories or detection of tampering.


There's plenty of precedent take Jain Farstrider. Why not simply off him? Anyone of the Malkeri survivors who recognised him would have to wonder why he refused to call himself Jain.

E: Moridin seems to have been planning for TLB possibly for centuries. The messages that led Rand and co to the eye were probably as deliberately planted as this "incident" with setalle. If not for the prophecy/vision concerning setalle (IMHO), I'd say it was another red herring by Ishy. But I think she found something.

Weird Harold
07-03-2011, 04:31 PM
Could? Are holding a straw here by any chance?

Just offering a plausible alternative to your witch hunt.

... The messages that led Rand and co to the eye were probably as deliberately planted as this "incident" with setalle.

The "messages" were definitely planted. Setalle Anan probably wasn't.

Martine Janata's "accident" could be the result of foul play, but you haven't demonstrated any logical evidence that makes foul play plausible,

Zombie Sammael
07-03-2011, 05:41 PM
With regard to the debate about healing Stilling as opposed to burning out, I've often wondered if Nynaeve's method of healing stilling might have an application elsewhere in healing spinal injuries causing paralysis. Both seem to deal with a broken connection of some kind. If it could, then perhaps the analogy for burning out would be someone who had lost both their legs: someone with a spinal injury cannot feel their legs but they are still there, and might someday walk again; while someone who has lost their legs no longer has anything to be healed. Stilling involves the breaking of a connection; burning out involves the destruction of anything to connect to.

greatwolf
07-04-2011, 08:24 AM
Martine Janata's "accident" could be the result of foul play, but you haven't demonstrated any logical evidence that makes foul play plausible,


Hm? With Moridin's footprints all over the memory loss? And the prophecy? Hard to see what else it could be.

Weird Harold
07-04-2011, 06:39 PM
Hm? With Moridin's footprints all over the memory loss? And the prophecy? Hard to see what else it could be.
The Patttern controls prophecy and the fulfillment thereof. Since Setalle is presumed to be the subject of Prophecy, the Pattern is solely responsible for what happened to her.

The Pattern has used Ishamael in the past, but does NOT use him exclusivley to manipulate threads into the places assigned to them.

SauceyBlueConfetti
07-05-2011, 12:14 PM
Do we have any other example of a sister burned out that lived? I am drawing a blank. No one in the Kin fits that bill, but wasn't there a generic someone, somewhere of lore spoken of by the AS in hushed tones?

And just a comment but the whole "straw" thing in arguments gets old. It has snotty connotations...let's find something new to poke with when we disagree, shall we? I dunno, call an argument you think is thin...Anna Nicole Smith :D

greatwolf
07-05-2011, 02:49 PM
The Patttern controls prophecy and the fulfillment thereof. Since Setalle is presumed to be the subject of Prophecy, the Pattern is solely responsible for what happened to her.

The Pattern has used Ishamael in the past, but does NOT use him exclusivley to manipulate threads into the places assigned to them.

You don't agree Moridin's comment in ToM makes him a prime suspect? I doubt the job was done with saidar.

greatwolf
07-05-2011, 02:59 PM
Do we have any other example of a sister burned out that lived? :D

Eventually I guess some of the AS will go looking for some of their friends that may have suffered burn out. But they'll be few. Burn out means a normal lifespan - anyone burnt out more than a hundred years ago would be long gone.