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greatwolf
06-30-2011, 03:05 PM
"He was injured, and then not, but I donít think a sister Healed him. The wounds no one could Heal are still there. He leaps about, Traveling, but heís still in the south. Somewhere in Illian, I think, but at this distance, he could be in Tear for all I know. Heís full of rage, and pain, and suspicion. There isnít any more, Cadsuane. There isnít!"

Has this been discussed before? I 'm uncertain but I think this might be more evidence that Sammael was actually BFed (or that at least his body was). Reading the passage and parts of aCoS, Rand was limping in the fight with Sammael and then suddenly, he wasn't.

Of course, his mind was on Liah, but there's no mention of the limp anywhere after that and no mention of healing anywhere. And RJ including this might be confirmation that sammael was indeed BFed.

However, I recall RJ sayiong sammael is toast but I don't remember if he specifically said he wasn't BFed. Even if Mashader touched samaael, his body would not have vanished unless Rand's BF got him. And since no mention is made of Sammael's body...

If this is true as it seems (to me) then it would probably knock out my theory on the death and transmigration of both Dashiva and Moggy. or maybe not.

Anyway that's it. Any thoughts?

Terez
06-30-2011, 03:30 PM
Nope, he wasn't balefired. Mashadar corrupted his soul, so he couldn't be transmigrated. If you availed yourself of the interview database, you'd know that.

Toss the dice
06-30-2011, 03:39 PM
I've always believed this was from when Rand was fighting in the Venir mountains against the Seanchan.

The entire army Traveled in short hops many times. It was too far for Alanna to tell more than a vague general direction, but she was still able to sense that he was Traveling. Which makes sense.

He was shot during the last battle and knocked to the ground. Bashere shouted for Fedwin Morr to get his ass over there, who Healed Rand.

Rand had plenty of excuses for rage and suspicion, and pain as well, throughout that ordeal. Much more than usual, in fact. He was (in his mind at the very least) almost killed by a couple of women (Ailil and Arymilla?), he had to deal with who were essentially his worst enemies when it came to the nobility of multiple lands, and he finished out the Seanchan strike by killing a bunch of his own people.

Enigma
06-30-2011, 03:40 PM
The reference to Rand being injured and then not was simply referring to the fact that he was hurt by Sammael but then he was healed. How exactly they picked up on the fact that it was an male channeler that healed him I'm not sure.

If they were closer the AS bonded to Rand might have felt the healing and noticed the difference but they were far enought away for her to only be generally aware of his direction.

FelixPax
06-30-2011, 09:32 PM
However, I recall RJ sayiong sammael is toast but I don't remember if he specifically said he wasn't BFed. Even if Mashader touched samaael, his body would not have vanished unless Rand's BF got him. And since no mention is made of Sammael's body...

...

Anyway that's it. Any thoughts?

You're not the only person vexed by that particular scene--on first, second, or fifteenth reading!
In a nutshell, irc Robert Jordan's interview quotations only repeat Rand's point of view of events.




Which occurred to Sammael first, Mashader or Balefire?


Yes, that bodies simply do not disappear after the Black Wind or Mashadar touches them--known examples include Trollocs, Ogier, Fade. Each seeks to destroy their souls.


At this point, it seems most likely that Mashader touched Sammael, and only then Balefire touched Sammael's body. If one believes Rand's point of view & his assumptions?


Screaming, Rand swept the balefire down toward the square, the rubble collapsing on itself, swept down death out of timeóand let saidin go before the bar of white touched the lake of Mashadar that now rolled across the square, billowing past the Waygate toward rivers of glowing gray that flowed out from another palace on the other side. Sammael had to be dead. He had to be. There had not been time for him to run, no time to weave a gateway, and if he had, Rand would have felt saidin being worked. Sammael was dead, killed by an evil almost as great as himself. Emotion raced across the outside of the Void; Rand wanted to laugh, or perhaps cry. He had come here to kill one of the Forsaken, but instead he had killed a woman he had abandoned here to her fate.


The Crowd of Swords, Chapter 41 "A Crown of Swords" -- Rand point of view; a mysterious scene.


Considering Rand had enough time to weave Balefire towards Liah, that's just enough time for Sammael to flee actually.

Graendal has done similar in TGS & ToM books.




An Unusual Ta'veren Dream:


Aviendha was in her blankets, with one slim, bare leg sticking out. He tried not to look at it, or her. She had left a lamp lit. He climbed into his own blankets gratefully and channeled the lamp out before releasing saidin. This time he dreamed of Aviendha hurling fire, only she was not hurling it at a Draghkar, and Sammael was sitting at her side, laughing.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 22 "Birdcalls by Night" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; Dreaming.

Ta'veren Dreams in particular are very important, according Anaiya Sedai (TGH book). So what to make of this particular Dream?

Perhaps Rand's Dream of Aviendha using Sammael as a symbol for another character?Or...



Sammael never died?



Did he use an inverted saidin weave to flee the area?


Where might Sammael flee to? Or hide out?
Would Sammael think as his one time "ally" Graendal did, flee to a Mirror World? (ToM Book)


Or is the Great Lord of the Dark moving Sammael around in secret? A situation Aran'gar once wondered about Osan'gar:


The true question was, was he among the dead or was lie moving in secret, perhaps at the Great Lord's direction? Either way, his absences presented delicious opportunities, but the latter presented as many dangers. Dangers had been much on her mind lately.


Knife of Dreams, Chapter 3 "At the Gardens" -- Aran'gar point of view; in the TAR with Demandred, Mesaana, Semirhage, Graendal & 'Eleven tall armchairs'


Sammael existence or non-existence remains an open area of debate.



At the moment, I tilting toward Sammael hiding out in a Mirror World... until the Day of Return.


Why?

Recollect Sammael sought to survive and out live the other Chosen. That's one reason he wanted a "Truce" with Rand al'Thor earlier.


The Illianerís mouth worked, struggled. What came out bore no relation to the voice he had used before. It was deeper, full of confidence, in a different accent. ďWe will stand on different sides, you and I, come the day of the Great Lordís Return, but why should we kill each other now and leave Demandred and Graendal to contest for the world over our bones?Ē Rand knew that voice, in one of those scraps from Lews Therin that had settled in his mind. Sammaelís voice. Lews Therin snarled wordlessly. ďAlready you have much to digest,Ē the Illianer went onóor Sammael did. ďWhy bite off more? And hard chewing, even if you donít find Semirhage or Asmodean taking you from behind while you are busy with it. I propose a truce between us, a truce until the Day of Return. If you do not move against me, I will not against you. I will pledge not to move east beyond the Plains of Maredo, nor further north than Lugard in the east or Jehannah in the west. You see, I leave the greater share by far to you. I do not claim to speak for the rest of the Chosen, but at least you know you have nothing to fear from me, or out of the lands I hold. I will pledge not to aid them in anything they do against you, nor to help them defend against you. You have done well so far in removing the Chosen from the field. I have no doubt you will continue to do well, better than before, knowing your southern flank is safe and the others fight without my aid. I suspect that on the Day of Return, there will be only you and I, as it should be. As it was meant to be.Ē The manís teeth clicked shut, hidden behind that frozen grin. His eyes looked near madness.


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 16 "Tellings of the Wheel" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Bashere, Sulin, and Sammael's messenger.

Sammael, the independent operator?


Hypothesis:


Sammael will return.

Zombie Sammael
07-01-2011, 05:08 AM
Hypothesis:


Sammael will return.


Hey, Felix was right about something.

Terez
07-01-2011, 05:36 AM
Half right, as is often the case.

Enigma
07-01-2011, 12:29 PM
Sammael will return.

I was under the impression that Sammael's soul was consumed by Mashadar and that because of this it would be either impossible for the DO to bring him back like the other recycled forsaken or that if he could be brought back it would be a very very bad idea due to the corruption of Mashadar and that the consequenced would be so grim that not even the DO would do it.

RJ specifically said Sammael was toast and if he cannot be resurected the I highly doubt he will be back.

FelixPax
07-01-2011, 02:42 PM
I was under the impression that Sammael's soul was consumed by Mashadar...

Yes, that is one of the possibilities:


Mashadar
Balefire
Escaped via an inverted Traveling weave:
- True World
- Mirror World
- Dream World or TAR



Hypothesis: Mashador



Mashador cuts a soul's 'cord of light', and 'cord of dark' if one has either.
Souls can be re-born, after touching Mashador.
A soul's 'cord of light' is connected to TAR & to the Stars above.
Hence Mashador cutting the 'cords' removes access to Dream Worlds. This is why Padan Fain Mordeth Dreams are free from the Dark One, now.




RJ specifically said Sammael was toast and if he cannot be resurected the I highly doubt he will be back.

Robert Jordan repeated a point of view, he wrote for Rand al'Thor. Nothing new in that interview.


Sammael was going to be toast, until Rand gave warning to Sammael of the Mashadar & his own location by balefiring Liah.



Would Sammael actually have died if Mashadar touched him?


If so, please explain how Padan Fain's experience touching the Black Wind or Mashadar is any different from the possibility Sammael did similar in Aridhol?


What is two things in common, that each shares?


A touch by the Great Lord of Dark in Shayol Ghul. Thus, a Black or Steel Cord is created.
Each Character in their own way was fighting the Dark One. Defying his will, by stubbornly going against orders. Each sought independence, survival.



How is Padan Fain any more special than Sammael is?

Why would Mashador/Black Wind not kill Padan Fain, yet kill Sammael?


Change


Rand's believes Sammael cannot or will "change", yet what occurs repeatedly in WoT series?

Changes in characters--be it Moghedien or Ishamael/Moridin or to Rand himself.


Long ago he had decided that Sammael must have wards woven throughout the city, set to give an alarm should anyone channel saidin. Wards inverted so no one except Sammael himself could find them, wards that would tell Sammael exactly where that man was channeling so he could be destroyed on the instant. With luck, every one of those wards was being triggered now. Lews Therin had been sure Sammael would sense them wherever he was, even at a distance. That was why the wardings should be useless now; that sort had to be remade once triggered. Sammael would come. Never in his life had he relinquished anything he considered his, however shaky his claim, not without a fight. All that from Lews Therin. If he was real. He had to be. Those memories had too much detail. But could not a madman dream his fancies in detail, too?


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 41 "A Crown of Swords" -- Rand al'Thor point of view


Recall that Graendal escaped from Rand's Balefire, when given a very short warning. Meanwhile Sammael was given an identical warning period, to escape death.

GonzoTheGreat
07-01-2011, 04:56 PM
Meanwhile Sammael was given an identical warning period, to escape death.Then how, pray tell me, do you explain away the following signing report (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/4340/Fantasy-Fair-Questions?page=1)?
Sammael is dead. He is dead. He is dead. He may be reborn again, but then he will not remember he was Sammael. He cannot be reincarnated. He is dead.
Gonzo: To me, this suggests that we will not see Sammael again. :rollinAnd yes, I am the Gonzo who heard this and wrote it down. Isa was there too, as were a couple of other who (at the time) posted here.

the_collective
07-01-2011, 06:08 PM
Hypothesis:


Sammael will return.

So that's who Cyndane is!!!

greatwolf
07-02-2011, 01:45 PM
@Terez,

There are differnet interview quotes on the topic:

First RJ,

CNN Chat 12 December 2000


Question from Arsolos: It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of A Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?

Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!

and from BS



Q: Are there any circumstances of death that could prevent the Dark One from resurrecting someone (other than balefire)?
A: Yes, but Iím not going to tell you what.

This lead to a fair amount of discussion about balefire and such. At one point, Brandon said Ďall Forsaken other than Sammael who havenít come back were balefiredí. I immediately jumped on this and asked if that included Asmodean Ė Brandon said that he wasnít talking about Asmodean (we all didnít even want to go there), but this is further evidence of Brandon slipping hints that Asmodean was balefired. This lead to a small debate about Osanígar Ė I didnít think he was balefired, everyone else at the table thought he was.

Brandon also said that the Dark One would have liked very much to transmigrate Sammael but didnít. Apparently, since he died by Mashadar, Sammael was either unable to be transmigrated or it would have been a very bad idea. Basically, Mashadar tainted Sammaelís thread somehow.

It was also mentioned that balefire does not mean that someone canít be reborn into the Pattern. I was very surprised by this and hadnít heard it before, but apparently Brandon has said it in previous Q&A sessions. Brandon said he was also surprised but that Maria was very insistent about this Ė so if the Dragon Reborn was balefired, he could still be reborn.


As you can see, RJ didn't rule out BF and the BS interview included errors. First about asmodean and then the entire controversy about osangar and asmodean and of course the goof about BFed souls being reborn.


Anyway, the quote is from the books, I didn't make up anything. Unless you want to take it up with team Jordan which injury Alanna was referring to. For me though, it seems clear enough.


Then how, pray tell me, do you explain away the following signing report (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/4340/Fantasy-Fair-Questions?page=1)?
And yes, I am the Gonzo who heard this and wrote it down. Isa was there too, as were a couple of other who (at the time) posted here.

The question is how he died? Unless Terez wants to show some other signing that specifically states sammael wasn't touched by BF, I have to beleive that is the reason he can't be reincarnated.

As I've said in my OP, I thought it was mashadar initially and assumed that Moggy's reapperance in KoD was faked by Moridn/Cyndane. (The chapter includes Arangar's thought that creations of tar are usually stiff and moghedien was also said to be unusually stiff).

But rereading TPoD, I don't think Rand's BF missed. Reposting those reasons wouldn't really help, but I might say that it would be helpful to do more than say the interview says this or that.

If you think I'm misinterpreting the quote, then tell us what the quote refers to. I've made plain what I think. RJ said that Mashadar killed sammael but the body would still be in its death throes when Rand's BF struck. Unless someone has a theory on Mashadar removing bodies it kills instantaneously.

And of course, even if mashadar were to remove sammael's body, it wouldn't account for Rand's healing.


I've always believed this was from when Rand was fighting in the Venir mountains against the Seanchan.

The quote happened long before the battle in altara. Alanna was clearly speaking of the events in Illian and Shadar Logoth. I don't have the books here, but Cadsuane's pov shows its was shortly after Rand was healed in aCoS.


The reference to Rand being injured and then not was simply referring to the fact that he was hurt by Sammael but then he was healed.

Crux of the matter, Enigma. He was hurt and limping (I don't want to reprint the entire chapter) but by the time Rand leaves shadar Logoth and arrives Illian by skimming, he's no longer limping. At least no mention is made of it by him or Bashere or anyone else until Alanna says the injury suddenly vanished.

We know the effects of BF, but since it works retroactively, Rand wasn't actually healed. Its just that the injury never happened even though Rand would still remember being injured and limping. Alaana too, must have noticed the paradox. She knew the moment Rand was injured and maybe even felt pain at the time, but suddenly she realizes he's no longer injured. If she knew about BF, then she might have figured it out herself.

Enigma
07-02-2011, 05:35 PM
Crux of the matter, Enigma. He was hurt and limping (I don't want to reprint the entire chapter) but by the time Rand leaves shadar Logoth and arrives Illian by skimming, he's no longer limping. At least no mention is made of it by him or Bashere or anyone else until Alanna says the injury suddenly vanished.

You do have a point Greatwolf it could be that Sammael was being munched on by but Mashadar and before life had fully left his body the balefire struck. One other way of looking at it was that Bashere & co knew that Rand had just been in a battle and being a professional soldier he did not comment on it as it was nothing out of the ordinary. Hell when Rand had his hand shot off Bashere acted as if it was nothing special.

Terez
07-02-2011, 06:09 PM
Vardene, aka Greatwolf,

RJ said that Mashadar killed Sammael. That means that Sammael was not killed by balefire.

Sincerely,

Terez

Enigma
07-03-2011, 11:22 AM
Would there be any effect if Rand balefired Sammael's still warm corpse, seconds after his soul was consumed?

greatwolf
07-03-2011, 03:32 PM
Would there be any effect if Rand balefired Sammael's still warm corpse, seconds after his soul was consumed?

Since BF affects inanimates too, I'd say yes. And Sammael likely was still dying, not dead.


RJ said that Mashadar killed Sammael. That means that Sammael was not killed by balefire.

Bullying tactics again?

Its simple enough. Mashadar grabs Sammael, he can't escape BF, and BF grabs him. RJ's statement remains valid since Mashadar killed him but BF removed him. Your inference is invalid and in light of Alanna's evidence, wrong as well.


You're not the only person vexed by that particular scene--on first, second, or fifteenth reading!
In a nutshell, irc Robert Jordan's interview quotations only repeat Rand's point of view of events.

Thank you Felix.

Davian93
07-03-2011, 06:38 PM
This is the dumbest thread on TL in a long time.

RJ straight out says he wasn't balefired...get over it, your stupid crackpot theory has been nixed.

Juan
07-03-2011, 08:03 PM
So...... Sammael will be reborn as Samuel. That is my theory.

(Not really).

Terez
07-03-2011, 08:07 PM
This is the dumbest thread on TL in a long time.
Agreed, this one violates the 'no dumb threads' rule. Good call.

Nae'blis
07-03-2011, 09:23 PM
Dumb or not, people are allowed to discuss this topic, if they so desire. The thread can stay open.

FelixPax
07-04-2011, 06:14 AM
Hey, Felix was right about something.

Great Wolf's line of questioning, curiously has pushed me to re-examining a large amount of story assumptions. Relatively broad number, all told.


As in, yes, Sammael Returns.

Yet, how about how Sammael was reforged and reborn?



Reborn as Mordeth once was,
Reborn as Padan Fain once was,
The Creature formerly known as... has gained a coveted third name:



Tel Janin Aellinsar.



More details to come.
Hypothesis is under construction.

Zombie Sammael
07-04-2011, 06:16 AM
Great Wolf's line of questioning, curiously has pushed me to re-examining a large amount of story assumptions. Relatively broad number, all told.


As in, yes, Sammael Returns.

Yet, how about how Sammael was reforged and reborn?



Reborn as Mordeth once was,
Reborn as Padan Fain once was,
The Creature formerly known as... has gained a coveted third name:



Tel Janin Aellinsar.



More details to come.
Hypothesis is under construction.

No doubt you are going to come up with something a lot more mental, but the "Fain is posing as Sammael" idea is one that came up recently, and one I quite like - along with "Fain has an actual zombie Sammael lol".

FelixPax
07-04-2011, 06:29 AM
No doubt you are going to come up with something a lot more mental, but the "Fain is posing as Sammael" idea is one that came up recently, and one I quite like - along with "Fain has an actual zombie Sammael lol".

Surprisingly, at least from my point of view there are an ample number of character parallels between Sammael & Padan Fain.


Fain is not posing as Sammael.
Fain is part of Sammael; Sammael is part of Fain.

Tel Janin Aellinsar is the Creature.
The Creature is has more voices or ex-souls, than Slayer does.

The Creature is One;
One of Many;
Many as One.

Zombie Sammael
07-04-2011, 06:42 AM
Surprisingly, at least from my point of view there are an ample number of character parallels between Sammael & Padan Fain.


Fain is not posing as Sammael.
Fain is part of Sammael; Sammael is part of Fain.

Tel Janin Aellinsar is the Creature.
The Creature is has more voices or ex-souls, than Slayer does.

The Creature is One;
One of Many;
Many as One.

That would make sense, but only insofar as all the other souls that have been eaten by Mashadar are now part of Mashadar, i.e. insofar as anything you've eaten is now part of you; it's digested and converted into what you need to survive. Now, there is some difference between you and Mashadar. For a start, Mashadar is not a strictly biological entity, nor is its food properly biological in nature. It's true that when eating things, you do adopt some of the characteristics of what you're eating (fatty food makes you fat, for instance) but not others (eating beef does not make you a cow). It is therefore reasonable to expect that Mashadar might be able to adopt some of the properties of the souls it "eats" as well, which is what might allow Fain to mimic Sammael. However, Sammael would only be a part of Padan Fain Mordeth to the extent that anyone else killed by the evil of Shadar Logoth is; he wouldn't be an equal partner as it were.

Weird Harold
07-04-2011, 07:46 AM
That would make sense, but only insofar as all the other souls that have been eaten by Mashadar are now part of Mashadar, i.e. insofar as anything you've eaten is now part of you; it's digested and converted into what you need to survive. ... It is therefore reasonable to expect that Mashadar might be able to adopt some of the properties of the souls it "eats" as well, which is what might allow Fain to mimic Sammael.

There are a couple of problems with the comparison, but Machin Shin also consumes its victim's souls, but doesn't subsume them; the multitude of tortured voices heard as Machin Shin approaches suggests the souls it consumes remain discrete.

Fain's encounter with Machin Shin suggests at least some similarity between Machin /shin and Mashadar, so perhaps Mashadar doesn't subsume the souls it consumes completely either.

That leaves the problem of Mashadar's presumed destruction with Shadar Logoth during the Cleansing freeing up the souls so trapped for rebirth rather than passing them on to Mashadar II, which is now following Fain around openly.

Zombie Sammael
07-04-2011, 07:52 AM
That leaves the problem of Mashadar's presumed destruction with Shadar Logoth during the Cleansing freeing up the souls so trapped for rebirth rather than passing them on to Mashadar II, which is now following Fain around openly.

Why assume that there is any distinction between Mashadar Logoth and Mashadar Fain? Rather than doing what you describe, perhaps the cleansing set Mashadar free. Or perhaps, Mashadar being bound to Aridhol, it immediately sought out the only part of Aridhol that remained; Padan Fain Mordeth (I wish RJ had stuck with "Ordeith", it's a much neater shorthand).

Weird Harold
07-04-2011, 08:05 AM
Why assume that there is any distinction between Mashadar Logoth and Mashadar Fain? Rather than doing what you describe, perhaps the cleansing set Mashadar free. Or perhaps, Mashadar being bound to Aridhol, it immediately sought out the only part of Aridhol that remained; Padan Fain Mordeth (I wish RJ had stuck with "Ordeith", it's a much neater shorthand).
Because Shadar Logoth, the Taint, and Mashadar were all contained within the globe that "Ate Itself" and collapsed onto nothingness. If Mashadar could survive, why not the Taint, too?

Zombie Sammael
07-04-2011, 08:54 AM
Because Shadar Logoth, the Taint, and Mashadar were all contained within the globe that "Ate Itself" and collapsed onto nothingness. If Mashadar could survive, why not the Taint, too?

There's nothing in the chapter "With The Choedan Kal" that suggest Mashadar was a part of the globe. I may be forgetting something that was mentioned later on, though. Do you have a citation for that assertion? Unless you do, I would not have thought mashadar would necessarily be a part of the globe. Though it certainly was born of Shadar Logoth and was bound to Shadar Logoth, it is not in and of itself Shadar Logoth nor even the taint of Shadar Logoth, but rather something new and different created from it. If it was necessary for it to be bound to SL, it makes sense that it would seek out the only remaining part of SL; Fain.

Enigma
07-04-2011, 09:11 AM
There's nothing in the chapter "With The Choedan Kal" that suggest Mashadar was a part of the globe.

Going from memory the globe in quesion was where SL was. It grew to encompase all of the city. So we know that the globe covered all of SL. We also know that Mashadar was inside the city. Ergo unless it snuck out the back door which we know it could not do, short of someone poppling in and removing something from the city when the city went it was destroyed as well.

Perhaps Mashadar could have survived if someone has simply reduced the city to rubble but given the power of the forces invovled if it was anywhere in the area it was very likely destroyed.

I certainly don't remember anyone seeing any sign of it fleeing or disipating after the taint was cleansed and SL destroyed.

Zombie Sammael
07-04-2011, 09:16 AM
Going from memory the globe in quesion was where SL was. It grew to encompase all of the city. So we know that the globe covered all of SL. We also know that Mashadar was inside the city. Ergo unless it snuck out the back door which we know it could not do, short of someone poppling in and removing something from the city when the city went it was destroyed as well.

Perhaps Mashadar could have survived if someone has simply reduced the city to rubble but given the power of the forces invovled if it was anywhere in the area it was very likely destroyed.

I certainly don't remember anyone seeing any sign of it fleeing or disipating after the taint was cleansed and SL destroyed.

You're assuming Mashadar is a physical thing, or even a thing anything like the One Power, or either of the taints. It's not. It's mid-way between them. As I've said, possibly it is tied to SL in some way but this would not necessarily preclude it from being able to simply manifest wherever the largest bit of SL was; following the cleansing, that would be the Dagger or Fain. It's obvious that something very like it is capable of manifesting in the vicinity of Fain following the cleansing. It makes far more sense to think that is the same thing having migrated to wherever the largest piece of its corporeal component was than that Fain had developed some way of making something that even Mordeth made by accident appear at will.

The Unreasoner
07-04-2011, 11:25 AM
We have no reason to assume a connection of instances of mashadar beyond the fact that they originated from the taint. mashadar just 'happens', it is something tainted things just make/do. fain can control it because in his case that which is tainted has agency.

Zombie Sammael
07-04-2011, 01:25 PM
We have no reason to assume a connection of instances of mashadar beyond the fact that they originated from the taint. mashadar just 'happens', it is something tainted things just make/do. fain can control it because in his case that which is tainted has agency.

This makes me think that it really hinges on whether Mashadar can be thought to be a living being or not. If it isn't then it's just a weapon gone wrong and my "Mashadar is the weapon and it wiped out SL" theory looks more promising, though of course I acknowledge there are quotes which limit its likelihood. This would also mean it would make a bit more sense for Fain to be able to just unleash Mashadar like any of the other tricks up his sleeve.

If it is - and it certainly appears to eat, move, and even have a rudimentary form of intelligence - then the idea that another Mashadar could just appear around Padan Fain when the original Mashadar (apparently) took years of hatred and suspicion to create and come to life seems increasingly ridiculous. It seems far more likely to me that a living Mashadar would be bound to the taint of SL and would appear wherever that is strongest (previously the city of Aridhol, now Fain and the Dagger). Its locomotion is explicable in the same way that its disappearance during the day is, which is to say it's not, other than to say that such a being would be bound by laws of which we know nothing at present.

To sum up, if Mashadar is a thing then multiple instances can appear and be controlled easily by Mordeth/Fain and whoever else happens to find out how without dying horribly first; an idea which I suggest is ridiculous when you think of how Mashadar supposedly came into being (years of hate coalescing into evil mist of death). Note, however, that this theory also seems to preclude the idea of Mashadar absorbing anything from its victims that could then be transferred to Fain, since the two instances of Mashadar are unrelated, and thus has a knock-on effect on a number of other theories, not least the "Fain is posing as Sammael" idea Terez backs, and whatever Felix manages to come up with about Sammael being an equal partner with Fain/Mordeth. I disagree with this notion.

If, however, Mashadar is a being, it is entirely likely that it can absorb certain characteristics from its "food", the souls of its victims, and it is also likely that it is one being capable of a degree of transmigration following the destruction of Shadar Logoth. I believe it is this second theory which will ultimately prove correct.

greatwolf
07-04-2011, 03:31 PM
This is the dumbest thread on TL in a long time.

RJ straight out says he wasn't balefired...get over it, your stupid crackpot theory has been nixed.

Again, you're misquoting RJ. Unless you have some other quote I don't know of, he made no comment on the role of BF in it.

And I don't see a quote specifically asking RJ if BF got Sammael's body or do you.

The Unreasoner
07-04-2011, 06:28 PM
Again, you're misquoting RJ. Unless you have some other quote I don't know of, he made no comment on the role of BF in it.

And I don't see a quote specifically asking RJ if BF got Sammael's body or do you.

Fair enough. But even if you are right, there is no and likely will be no way to prove that this is the way things went down. I don't see why flinn couldn't have healed him after the crowning (offscreen). Or after another event entirely.

I'm pretty confident that fain is not the culprit, both from my understanding of mashadar, and the word choice of BS in his quotes on the matter, so no zombie/fusion nonsense, which just leaves illusion, and so possible even after balefire

Zombie Sammael
07-04-2011, 06:46 PM
Fair enough. But even if you are right, there is no and likely will be no way to prove that this is the way things went down. I don't see why flinn couldn't have healed him after the crowning (offscreen). Or after another event entirely.

I'm pretty confident that fain is not the culprit, both from my understanding of mashadar, and the word choice of BS in his quotes on the matter, so no zombie/fusion nonsense, which just leaves illusion, and so possible even after balefire

Whoever did it (I presume we are talking about the manor attack) was able to replicate Sammael's Chosen Mark, which I do not think would be possible just with illusion.

Weird Harold
07-04-2011, 07:28 PM
There's nothing in the chapter "With The Choedan Kal" that suggest Mashadar was a part of the globe. I may be forgetting something that was mentioned later on, though. Do you have a citation for that assertion? Unless you do, I would not have thought mashadar would necessarily be a part of the globe. Though it certainly was born of Shadar Logoth and was bound to Shadar Logoth, it is not in and of itself Shadar Logoth nor even the taint of Shadar Logoth, but rather something new and different created from it. If it was necessary for it to be bound to SL, it makes sense that it would seek out the only remaining part of SL; Fain.
A sphere three miles across centered on Shadar Logoth -- and anything trapped in Shadar Logoth -- that left a hole three miles wide and a mile and a half deep, didn't encapsulate the volume that Mashadar was restricted to?

You'll have to explain how that could be.

Zombie Sammael
07-05-2011, 04:26 AM
A sphere three miles across centered on Shadar Logoth -- and anything trapped in Shadar Logoth -- that left a hole three miles wide and a mile and a half deep, didn't encapsulate the volume that Mashadar was restricted to?

You'll have to explain how that could be.

For a start, because the Cleansing took place during the day, and Mashadar disappears during the day. Where does it go? Nobody knows. For a second thing, talking about the "volume" of Mashadar is wrong-headed - it's not something that has a "volume" as such. It can appear in one small part of SL or in a large area, unrestricted by size. It's an evil mist of death, created from abstract concepts, not a physical creature.

Tree Brother
07-05-2011, 02:05 PM
We have no reason to assume a connection of instances of mashadar beyond the fact that they originated from the taint. mashadar just 'happens', it is something tainted things just make/do. fain can control it because in his case that which is tainted has agency.

Mashadar originated from evil of Mordeth. Machin Shin (The Black Wind) originated from the taint on the OP used to create the Ways.

Mashadar is sort of mindless. Machin Shin whispers things. The dagger and Fain are a "part of" Shadar Logoth, so part of Machin Shin resides with Fain.

Has anyone determined how Fain can direct Machin Shin? Machin Shin was born of the taint, but will kill indiscriminately.

greatwolf
07-05-2011, 04:16 PM
Fair enough. But even if you are right, there is no and likely will be no way to prove that this is the way things went down. I don't see why flinn couldn't have healed him after the crowning (offscreen). Or after another event entirely.

Except Alanna should be able to tell the difference. She has healed him before and should know but her comment wasn't healing just that he was no longer injured, the way it would be after a BF event. Except that no more mention of the limp was made, it seemed very prominent in RJ's writing earlier.

nameless
07-05-2011, 04:18 PM
Mashadar originated from evil of Mordeth. Machin Shin (The Black Wind) originated from the taint on the OP used to create the Ways.

Mashadar is sort of mindless. Machin Shin whispers things. The dagger and Fain are a "part of" Shadar Logoth, so part of Machin Shin resides with Fain.

Has anyone determined how Fain can direct Machin Shin? Machin Shin was born of the taint, but will kill indiscriminately.

We don't know that Fain's doing it on purpose. It may have tried to eat his soul and run screaming because his soul is so toxic, and absorbed a part of his compulsion to follow Rand around in the process.

The Unreasoner
07-05-2011, 05:22 PM
For a start, because the Cleansing took place during the day, and Mashadar disappears during the day. Where does it go? Nobody knows. For a second thing, talking about the "volume" of Mashadar is wrong-headed - it's not something that has a "volume" as such. It can appear in one small part of SL or in a large area, unrestricted by size. It's an evil mist of death, created from abstract concepts, not a physical creature.

but it is still bound to the city. it emanates from the all-encompassing taint, so it is just formed within the city.

I still think that mashadar was an accidental result of the city's suspicion, not an intentionally designed weapon. The ability to control the instance of mashadar emanating from fain and the dagger is a new ability.

nameless
07-05-2011, 05:48 PM
Whoever did it (I presume we are talking about the manor attack) was able to replicate Sammael's Chosen Mark, which I do not think would be possible just with illusion.

We're getting that information 3rd hand. Moridin doesn't know for sure that the Mark was replicated, he just assumes it must have been because the Mark is the only thing he knows about (or admits to knowing about) that can make Fades obey.

Zombie Sammael
07-05-2011, 06:21 PM
but it is still bound to the city. it emanates from the all-encompassing taint, so it is just formed within the city.

I still think that mashadar was an accidental result of the city's suspicion, not an intentionally designed weapon. The ability to control the instance of mashadar emanating from fain and the dagger is a new ability.

That's exactly my point, and if the city was destroyed then it would gravitate automatically towards the largest source of taint elsewhere: Fain. Whether it's a by-product of hate or an intentionally designed weapon gone haywire makes no difference to that bit of the argument. If it's bound to the city, it's bound to the taint, and with the city gone, it's bound to the largest bit of taint left, which is Fain, hence why it appears around him and may be under his control.

Zombie Sammael
07-05-2011, 06:27 PM
We're getting that information 3rd hand. Moridin doesn't know for sure that the Mark was replicated, he just assumes it must have been because the Mark is the only thing he knows about (or admits to knowing about) that can make Fades obey.

Haven't got to that point yet. What's Moridin's actual thought process? I'm just wondering because if it's "Whoever it was must have replicated Sammael's mark, it was the only way", that's a lot flimsier than "And whoever did it had replicated Sammael's mark; that fact was interesting" (or something along those lines). The second leaves it open as to whether or not Moridin is assuming or actually knows it outright; the first demonstrates your point.

The Unreasoner
07-05-2011, 06:31 PM
you know i think instances of mashadar are unrelated, and so i would think that this 'batch' would simply cease to exist. fain can make his own-he wouldn't need more.

Someone with great influence and power among the, the umÖthe, among those who follow the Shadow would have to have been involved.

from brandon. Fain has great power over those who follow the shadow, but is in no way among them.

There is no need for a mashadar cloud to fly from shadar logoth to wherever fain happens to be.

Zombie Sammael
07-05-2011, 06:40 PM
Really sorry but I just don't follow you at all:

you know i think instances of mashadar are unrelated, and so i would think that this 'batch' would simply cease to exist. fain can make his own-he wouldn't need more.

What makes you think Fain can make Mashadar? It took Shadar Logoth years of hatred and suspicion (or research) to create it. Why would Fain just be able to make it from scratch?

from brandon. Fain has great power over those who follow the shadow, but is in no way among them.

There is no need for a mashadar cloud to fly from shadar logoth to wherever fain happens to be.

I don't see how your quote and your point are related or prove anything at all, sorry. It might just be me, it's late here and I'm about to go to bed. Maybe you could try wording it differently?

nameless
07-05-2011, 06:51 PM
What's Moridin's actual thought process?
What he says out loud is more or less "the impostor must have been one of the Chosen, because the Fades obeyed and they only obey the Chosen." We don't get his thought process because it's not his POV.

FelixPax
07-06-2011, 01:15 AM
What makes you think Fain can make Mashadar? It took Shadar Logoth years of hatred and suspicion (or research) to create it. Why would Fain just be able to make it from scratch?

Mashadar and the Black Wind are one in the same.



Let's see Fain's claimed to speak to the voices of the Black Wind. (tEotW)
Black Wind came out of the Ways in Cairhien.
Black Wind is targeted at Rand al'Thor, just as al'Thor is one of Fain's targets.



Who is one of Fain's names? Mordeth.
Fain and Mordeth are one in the same.

Sammael is the same, he is joined the Creature--now.



Sammael, Fain, Mordeth, Mashadar, Black Wind are one thing--since it's claimed Sammael die, and was reborn. Collectively called "the Creature". That's what Loial once called the Black Wind--'The Creature'.

Fain is the Black Wind, Mashadar as much as he is Mordeth, and now Sammael too. Fain is the Mist, the Wind--it's part of the Creature's very being.


Ironically, Sammael's time trick is similar to Padan Fain's time trick. (For scenes, see ACoS book, Ch.15 "Insects"; TGH book, Ch. 10 "The Hunt Begins")


If the Creature thinks of the Wind, it can become the Wind, Mist at will. How?


Hypothesis of the Collapsing Worlds.


Dream Worlds have already interacted with the True World, in the True World itself. Henceforth, to think or dream is to impress one's beliefs upon reality.

Sammael thoughts and dreams in Illian, once were impressed into the minds of the citizens of Illian. (TDR book)

Since becoming one with the Creature, Sammael soul has pasted on his talents to the Creature. The Creature's thoughts can and do, impact the True World through it's thoughts.


The Creature is correct to a degree, that his hatred made a Storm (ToM, Prologue):

Red below, black above. Perfect. Did his hatred cause that storm? It must be so. Yes.

FelixPax
07-06-2011, 01:33 AM
Haven't got to that point yet. What's Moridin's actual thought process?

One possibility:


Moridin lies.
Moridin lied to all the Chosen in the room.
Moridin personally ordered that assassination raid upon Rand al'Thor in Tear.
Moridin used Sammael's reputation, name and mysterious disappear or death, as cover for his own double-dealings.



A Second, bizarre option:


The Creature went into the Blight.
The Creature decided to use it's newly gained Sammael knowledge to order a hit on Rand al'Thor.
The Creature knew who to talk to, and where to go--to organize this raid (KoD)



A problem with second option, is Padan Fain Mordeth's pov has shown a fear of returning to the Blight or to Aridhol. A fear of being captured by the Shadow. Yet the Creature is in the Blight, as of ToM book. Vexing.


Did Sammael's new knowledge given to "the Creature", change it's risk outlook?


If so, then Sammael's passionate desire stated to Graendal is of GREAT IMPORTANCE:


That was Lanfear; I am certain. I’m done with her. The next time I see her, I’ll kill her!


Chapter "Threads Woven of Shadow" -- Sammael point of view


Who to kill first?



Rand al'Thor
Mierin/Lanfear



Which shall the Creature choose, if given a choice?