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Lupusdeusest
07-03-2011, 08:26 AM
I don't have copies of the books with me so bear with me :)
Something has been irritating me recently about Egwene's wards - or lack of them! - she placed around her rooms during the Big TAR Showdown. She has, from memory, a ward that captures a perosn and hangs them up in the air, and that's it - once trapped, it must be reset. (Am I correct on that?)
Considering it is doubtful someone as bePowered as she would be attacked without a backup, shouldn't she have had a bit more than that?
Could she have done a weave akin to that Moiraine used on her horse in NS, and woven it around her doorknob to stave off non-Traveling attacks? That weave apparently has to be held to be felt - such is suggested in Moi's holding it in NS - so is there a tied-off version that would have worked similarly (as I doubt it was pure Spirit)? Rand has all these whiz-bang wards on pretty much everything he holds dear - all tied off, and not all immediately fatal - so surely the WT has something similar? Could it have been possible to layer the hanging trap so it would capture more than one, if the second was not alerted to it by the maid (or whomever) hanging from the ceiling?
I could go on...
(Speculation: Could not Eg, with her brainful enough Travel-wise to guess the weave, be able to recreate the weave demo'd somewhere (don't know where) by a Forsaken to sense a gateway coming through? (No, I am not referring to the chime (I think it was Moggy and Cyndane?) used to alert the destination you are coming through? Could this be adapted? And how far a leap would it be to recreate a Dreamspike, considering how closely linked Dreaming and Traveling seem to be?)


PS. I like Eg. This is not an Egwene-bashing thread, rather it is a... query as to this... hole/error in judgment.



EDIT: Just saw the Rules thread... if this is moved I know why :)

GonzoTheGreat
07-03-2011, 10:12 AM
Bonus question: if Mesaana had actually been caught in that trap, could she have freed herself simply by cutting the weaves?

In defense of Egwene: she most definitely could not trust to anything which was Tower-standard, as the BA had had dozens of centuries to learn how to get around that, even if Mesaana couldn't do that herself. So it was necessary to use something new, just to have some reasonable chance of success.

Enigma
07-04-2011, 08:02 AM
One reason why she might not have any other wards is that Wards can interfear with each other. When Rand was first getting lessons from Asmodean and was following the Shaido across the Waste he warded the camp against Shadowspawn. He wanted to ward it against other things but his pov made it clear that he could not. It was something about wards being tenuous things and trying to make it do too many things can cause it to fail and implied was that one can't set up multiple wards each with a slightly different purpose.

The Unreasoner
07-04-2011, 11:28 AM
so why not order everyone to stay out of her room and make a human killing ward? her op senses would tell her if shadowspawn got too close, or one of the hundreds of the sisters' would, and would kill mesaana or gray men.

GonzoTheGreat
07-04-2011, 11:54 AM
I thought this was meant to be an Egwene-bashing-free thread. That means you don't get to suggest she might have some common sense, I think.

Then again, she might not want to run the risk of accidentally killing the wrong human, like a Sister bringing a report of yet another Seanchan attack, or something like that. So not wanting to set up an indiscriminate killing zone does make some sense. If she thought this through.

SauceyBlueConfetti
07-05-2011, 01:18 PM
so why not order everyone to stay out of her room and make a human killing ward? her op senses would tell her if shadowspawn got too close, or one of the hundreds of the sisters' would, and would kill mesaana or gray men.

she didn't want to kill anyone, she wanted to capture her/them/it and question them to death.

The Unreasoner
07-05-2011, 05:39 PM
okay so it knocks them out instead, puts them to sleep like the boobytrapped hedgehog.

she could even question them in tar, where she would likely have an advantage, or in a special pocket of tar where she certainly would.

greatwolf
07-05-2011, 05:48 PM
I don't have copies of the books with me so bear with me :)
Something has been irritating me recently about Egwene's wards - or lack of them! - she placed around her rooms during the Big TAR Showdown. She has, from memory, a ward that captures a perosn and hangs them up in the air, and that's it - once trapped, it must be reset. (Am I correct on that?)
Considering it is doubtful someone as bePowered as she would be attacked without a backup, shouldn't she have had a bit more than that?

IIRC, the ward also tripped off alarms. Discovery would have put the forsaken or any assasin at quite a disadvantage. U think Egwene has done pretty well fir an 18year old. Expecting more would have been unrealistic.

nameless
07-05-2011, 05:55 PM
Especially considering that Egwene never learned the secret "Ajah-only" weaves, so she may not know how to do things like put people to sleep.

GonzoTheGreat
07-06-2011, 04:23 AM
IIRC, the ward also tripped off alarms. Discovery would have put the forsaken or any assasin at quite a disadvantage. U think Egwene has done pretty well fir an 18year old. Expecting more would have been unrealistic.Well, she could have done what a 20 year old did, when he thought he was targeted to be murdered by a Forsaken: put a bunch of guards near enough to, you know, like, actually respond to an attack.

She put all her eggs in one basket, knowing that the egg stealer had centuries of experience in dealing with booby trapped baskets.

And, just for giggles: she did not even ever consider the possibility that more than one Forsaken might be involved, even though she was fully aware that Moghedien was running around free with a very personal grudge against her. And the Spider has a truly towering reputation when it came to sneaky assassinations and such, so assuming that a simple ward will be enough does not seem sensible.

The ward which was put into place was a good first line of defense. But to have it as the only line of defense is not something even an 18 year old should try, unless actually forced to take such a risk.

greatwolf
07-06-2011, 06:14 AM
Well, she could have done what a 20 year old did, when he thought he was targeted to be murdered by a Forsaken: put a bunch of guards near enough to, you know, like, actually respond to an attack.

Come on Gonzo, this is the chap known as the son of battles. Mat is practically the god of war in RL and you want to compare an 18year old to him and expect her to come out well?

Even avi makes errors of judgement in battle and she was trained in warfare from day one.

Especially considering that Egwene never learned the secret "Ajah-only" weaves, so she may not know how to do things like put people to sleep.

:rolleyes: She's a better channeler than most AS and she's spent less than two years in training, none of that training deals with how to tackle a forsaken. I only said we should have realistic expectations of her not that she's perfect.

GonzoTheGreat
07-06-2011, 06:51 AM
Come on Gonzo, this is the chap known as the son of battles. Mat is practically the god of war in RL and you want to compare an 18year old to him and expect her to come out well?I would not expect her to be able to handle a complicated combat situation nearly as well as Mat could do. But I would expect her to be able to think things through at least as far as, for instance, Perrin's followers can: if you are being targeted for assassination, then having bodyguards is useful.

Egwene knew that the Sisters who had already been killed had been somewhat paranoid too (as a result of the whole division of the Tower thing, the Seanchan attack, and possibly the previous killings as well), so she should have considered the possibility that one single sleeping woman was not a match for whatever or whoever was doing this killing.
For all she knew, it could even have been a Gholam. I don't think she knew how many were still alive, and I do not think she knew the status of the one that had been after Mat, Elayne and Nynaeve either. If either Mesaana or Moghedien had gained control of it, then that would fully explain the "no channeling was used" feature of all the previous deaths. And it would also mean that any ward or trap she set would be totally useless, unless there were actually people actually watching what was happening.

Egwene chose to believe that a ward would work, and she chose to believe there was only one attacker. Neither belief had any foundation in reality at all. That sort of blindness may be understandable from an inexperience 18 year old, I'll grant you, but she did have some experience already, and she is supposed to be capable enough to actually lead the WT during the most trying time of its existence.

greatwolf
07-06-2011, 09:56 AM
But I would expect her to be able to think things through at least as far as, for instance, Perrin's followers can: if you are being targeted for assassination, then having bodyguards is useful.


I think that's unfair. She definitely had other weaves prepared and we don't know what other precautions she took to summon help because the trap was sprung prematurely.

If she was baiting Mesaana, then putting too many safeguards in place risked tipping her off. Better this way.

For all she knew, it could even have been a Gholam.I don't think she knew how many were still alive,


Is she even aware that there's such a thing as a gholam? Mat didn't think it important enough to let or Rand know about it. If you can't prove she knew about the gholam Gonzo, i'm going to...:D

Egwene chose to believe that a ward would work, and she chose to believe there was only one attacker. Neither belief had any foundation in reality at all.

Yes there was. Her dreams.

GonzoTheGreat
07-06-2011, 10:17 AM
But she had already received actual warning that it either was not Mesaana, or not only Mesaana. Gawyn had told her about the male assasssin, hadn't he?
She could not summon help, as she was sleeping too soundly. That's why she slept through, even when Gawyn was screaming his head off right above her own head.
And Mesaana knew that Egwene knew about the BA, so having a bunch of safeguards she noticed would not necessarily have informed Mesaana that Egwene was on to her.

She might or might not know about the gholam. I guess that depends on whether or not Elayne and Nynaeve bothered sharing that piece of rather important information with her. I'm willing to grant the strong likelyhood that she did not know anything about this.

And, considering the fact that there were two different sets of attackers, how trustworthy would you say that her dreams were when it came to deciding whether there was only one single attacker?

greatwolf
07-06-2011, 10:41 AM
But she had already received actual warning that it either was not Mesaana, or not only Mesaana. Gawyn had told her about the male assasssin, hadn't he?


No the OP is about the first attack iirc, when Gwayn got caught in Egwene's trap. You're mixing it up with the second attack where Gwayn actually fought the bloodknives.


She might or might not know about the gholam. I guess that depends on whether or not Elayne and Nynaeve bothered sharing that piece of rather important information with her. I'm willing to grant the strong likelyhood that she did not know anything about this.


So you're admitting you're prejudiced? Yipeee! So now you can come to the light.:)

Or alternately wear a silly hat for the next 365s..


And, considering the fact that there were two different sets of attackers, how trustworthy would you say that her dreams were when it came to deciding whether there was only one single attacker?

Not much. That's how prophecy usually works. It never tells you everything. If you know when, you don't know how etc.

GonzoTheGreat
07-06-2011, 12:56 PM
No the OP is about the first attack iirc, when Gwayn got caught in Egwene's trap. You're mixing it up with the second attack where Gwayn actually fought the bloodknives.Are you sure? I would say that the phrase "the Big TAR Showdown" refers to the second attack, when Egwene and friends were having their big showdown with Mesaana and friends in TAR.

kabkaba
07-06-2011, 02:39 PM
However you want to put it, this was just a story instrument to make Gawyn a hero.

greatwolf
07-06-2011, 02:59 PM
Are you sure? I would say that the phrase "the Big TAR Showdown" refers to the second attack, when Egwene and friends were having their big showdown with Mesaana and friends in TAR.

You know what? you might be right, I thought the description of Gwayn's clown show but I might be wrong. A pity lupus seems to have gone MIA.:D

The Unreasoner
07-06-2011, 05:09 PM
However you want to put it, this was just a story instrument to make Gawyn a hero.

This.

I think it's obvious that she was sadly underprepared, but she is certainly more competent than her precautions suggest. If Gawyn didn't need to be a hero, there would have been something more suitable.

More disturbing is Egwene's arrogance. As Gonzo pointed out, she believes what she wants to believe. Much like Elaida. She has a Talent that gives her a glimpse into the future and makes poor deciscions based on it. Much like Elaida. And she is bound, so what she says is what she believes to be true. Her vehement assertion that the killer was not a Gray man or Darkfriend followed later by the reversal of her position shows exactly how much (and how little) evidence Egwene needs to support her narrative.

Lupusdeusest
07-06-2011, 10:24 PM
Are you sure? I would say that the phrase "the Big TAR Showdown" refers to the second attack, when Egwene and friends were having their big showdown with Mesaana and friends in TAR.

Yep, that's what I mean :) Sorry, have been absent for a few days.

Lupusdeusest
07-06-2011, 10:41 PM
Sorry about my absence - I've had a rather weird couple of days.
It's the "only one attacker" mentality that annoys me, and the desire to capture only. Narishma was able to retrieve Callandor from Rand's layered deadly-to-humans inverted traps, and whilst I'm aware a) Rand has an extra life's (and a more advanced one!) OP XP on him in that regard, could she have had... for want of a better word... a Secret-Keeper for the night? Someone who knew the way around the deadly wards placed and was not easily controlled or discoverable?
(Did she have anyone not involved in the TAR battle that she could trust? Would the closest be Nicola, which she knew likely wasn't BA but wasn't responsible or perceptive? Could she have spared one fighter and one ter'angreal from the battle so she could have one person secreted in her room to pop into TAR and tell her there that Stuff Was Happening?)
Would it be possible to have a trap akin t the one she had that would reset itself - after passing the person on to another trap purely for holding? Or at least one that held the person somewhere... less obvious... so that the room could be designated into "zones" of wards and the surprise wouldn't be ruined/intruder wouldn't be halted by seeing a maid or their comrade strung up in midair?
(Does anyone remember the old PC game? That, ironically, was what got me into WoT, or at least persuaded me to start reading it.)

greatwolf
07-07-2011, 02:50 AM
Sorry about my absence - I've had a rather weird couple of days.
It's the "only one attacker" mentality that annoys me, and the desire to capture only. Narishma was able to retrieve Callandor from Rand's layered deadly-to-humans inverted traps...


Good to have you back.

But I still think she did quite well with the information available to her. She actually brought in as much outside help as she could trust. You can just imagine her setting guards on her rooms and that of all those involved in the bait. Too much preparation is a sure giveaway.

Worse, it would have done her no good and might have made Gwayn's rescue impossible. If chubain was in charge of security, there'd probably be an officer to deny Gwayn access to the amyrlin's chambers and the bloodknives would slip past him.

Again, whatever traps she set, who's to say what one of the forsaken can do? Travel right into her bedroom with masked weaves? Unless you're suggesting that Egwene has a Talent for wards (which Moiraine seems to have) or is more skilled in battle than we've been led to believe, then the preparations she made were the best to be expected.

All I'm saying is to be fair in assessment of her character and circumstances. She's hardly my favorite character, but I try to be fair though I have criticised her before and might again.

FWIW, Cadsuane did the kind of preparation you're talking about at SL, and it was still pretty close. We shouldn't mention Rand's incompetence during before or after that event. Or we can ascribe it to taint madness.

Phaw! (sorry, had to)

GonzoTheGreat
07-07-2011, 05:00 AM
The preparations which Egwene made to ward off physical attack may have been the best she could do. But they were nowhere near close to good enough, which of course means that putting herself as bait in the trap was just stupid.

If you can not devise a trap that is good enough, then you have to use another solution.

Just to name yet another possibility Egwene does not seem to have considered: the murders might have been done by Gray Men sent by Mesaana, rather than by Mesaana herself. On an earlier occasion, Egwene (and Elayne and Nynaeve) had already been attacked in the White Tower itself by two Gray Men. So she actually knew about this possibility from her own personal experience.

Zombie Sammael
07-07-2011, 05:15 AM
Yet another possibility Egwene hasn't considered: the attack could have come from a batallion of worms using exploding sheep that escaped from a computer game, or Galactus, or the Royal Air Force....

You hold Egwene up to a far higher standard than any other character, Gonzo. Just admit it.

The Unreasoner
07-07-2011, 06:42 AM
I think this is the wrong thing to hold against her. she is clearly relatively competent, and while most conceivable wards have holes in their defense (and likely provide a poor defense against a forsaken) no one in their right mind would think those wards adequate. It was purposefully flawed, by author or Pattern (or both) to provide Gawyn with his chance to be a hero, and prove himself to egwene. Egwene is many things (pompous and arrogant barely scratch the surface) but she is not stupid.

Having secret wards that need to be reset and no guards has an obvious hole-any maid or messenger (oblivious to their existence) could inadvertently trip the wards, and without action on egwene's part, they become useless. any inverted ward against sound could stop an alarm. egwene must have known all of this.

I'm glad gawyn is a big hero though

GonzoTheGreat
07-07-2011, 07:58 AM
Yet another possibility Egwene hasn't considered: the attack could have come from a batallion of worms using exploding sheep that escaped from a computer game, or Galactus, or the Royal Air Force....

You hold Egwene up to a far higher standard than any other character, Gonzo. Just admit it.Egwene didn't know about any of them*, so having her discount them is not something that should be considered too stupid.
However, she did know about the BA, yet she took no precautions against the possibility that there would be anyone else with Mesaana.
She did know about Gray Men, she knew that the murders appeared to be done by a non-channeler, and she knew that Mesaana might have the authority to order Gray Men to carry out assassinations. Yet Egwene took no measures to deal with this possibility at all.
She knew that Gawyn had seen a male would-be killer, yet she decided to ignore that and concentrate only on the assumption that it would be Mesaana alone who came for her.

It is the tunnel vision which she displays here that is the flaw I am griping about. And tunnel vision is a very ordinary situation for Egwene, it comes back again and again and again.
Perrin also got blinded by tunnel vision during his Hunt for Faile, and that annoyed a lot of people (including me) who thought that he should have looked a bit more at the bigger perspective. To wit: he should have re-established communications with Rand.

* Apart from the worms; they are mentioned in the KC, but in a part which hasn't been quoted in the books yet. How did you learn about them?

Zombie Sammael
07-07-2011, 08:17 AM
* Apart from the worms; they are mentioned in the KC, but in a part which hasn't been quoted in the books yet. How did you learn about them?

They're in the Essanik Cycle. I have a copy.

So are you, btw.

GonzoTheGreat
07-07-2011, 08:21 AM
They're in the Essanik Cycle. I have a copy.But I don't think we can assume that Egwene has the EC, so she has to do with the (somewhat vagues, admittedly) reference in the KC instead.

Zombie Sammael
07-07-2011, 08:33 AM
But I don't think we can assume that Egwene has the EC, so she has to do with the (somewhat vagues, admittedly) reference in the KC instead.

So by your standards the logical response to the situation was to what? Dig a tunnel with the blowtorch (or the Power, I guess), block it up with girders and hide in it, calling in airstrikes until the enemy had been wiped out? :p

GonzoTheGreat
07-07-2011, 08:54 AM
Good idea, that.

Alternatively, set up precisely the kind of trap she actually did use, then, right before going to sleep, use an inverted weave to go to another room entirely, possibly somewhere in Rhuidean, and sleep there. That way, if the trap works, and no one gets past it once it has been sprung, fine, no problem. If the trap is not enough, then all the would-be assassin finds is an empty bed.

Appearing to be bait might be a good idea. Being defenseless and available for getting her throat slit was not.

Lupusdeusest
07-07-2011, 09:09 AM
Good idea, that.

Alternatively, set up precisely the kind of trap she actually did use, then, right before going to sleep, use an inverted weave to go to another room entirely, possibly somewhere in Rhuidean, and sleep there. That way, if the trap works, and no one gets past it once it has been sprung, fine, no problem. If the trap is not enough, then all the would-be assassin finds is an empty bed.

Appearing to be bait might be a good idea. Being defenseless and available for getting her throat slit was not.

Damn you, you beat me to saying that by 6 minutes.

It's the Horn (or where we think the Horn is) all over again. Or Mat's clothes in Ebou Dar, if an example we know is true is preferred XD
If she had been trapped in the dream she could have the knowledge of her location with 3 others.

David Selig
07-07-2011, 09:59 AM
Good idea, that.

Alternatively, set up precisely the kind of trap she actually did use, then, right before going to sleep, use an inverted weave to go to another room entirely, possibly somewhere in Rhuidean, and sleep there. That way, if the trap works, and no one gets past it once it has been sprung, fine, no problem. If the trap is not enough, then all the would-be assassin finds is an empty bed.

Appearing to be bait might be a good idea. Being defenseless and available for getting her throat slit was not.
That's the idea I immediately had when I first read about Egwene's "trap". With Travelling available, it really makes no sense to sleep in that room instead of secretly moving to another location and sleeping there.

What good are wards on such a limited area against someone of Forsaken level strength anyway? Mesaana could've just blasted the whole of the Amyrlin's apartment to pieces without triggering the alarms by coming too close.

GonzoTheGreat
07-07-2011, 10:17 AM
Or she could have poisoned Egwene's porridge.

Lupusdeusest
07-07-2011, 11:05 AM
Or she could have poisoned Egwene's porridge.

If they expect cannons, give them poison needles.
(If they wear plate armour for an expected hail of arrows, use a knife between the plates.)

The Unreasoner
07-07-2011, 11:31 AM
it occurs to me that the traps cadsuane set over what are very probably two of the most dangerous objects in the world weren't particularly strong either. both cadsuane and egwene would have seen their traps rendered useless if the thief/assassin simply sent a lackey first, after setting an inverted ward against sound.

for egwene, i still think it was more about giving gawyn his day in the sun. and i suppose cadsuane's screw up could be about kicking her out of it.

but for egwene-pretending to be bait is one thing, being bait quite another.

for cadsuane-i wonder if, after learning the room, cadsuane could have made a ward that would open a small travelling gateway and push the chest through if the chest was approached by anyone other than her. or the skimming space? can a platform be made without a consciousness?

GonzoTheGreat
07-07-2011, 11:34 AM
or the skimming space? can a platform be made without a consciousness?I'm not sure, but even if it is possible, the platform would dissolve quite rapidly. You do need to hold on to it for it to keep solid enough to support any weight.

Lupusdeusest
07-07-2011, 12:20 PM
And is this lack of knowledge of warding relevant to humans more prevalent than other areas of AS knowledge?
(Bedtime for me... won't be too active tomorrow either - speed 3D modelling comps on all day)


Edit: That made more sense in my head than out.
Rephrasing. Is the decay of weave knowledge greater in this field than in others of AS knowledge to a level of significance to be considered artificial?

GonzoTheGreat
07-07-2011, 12:29 PM
That is sort of unknown, but the AS (including Egwene) should have assumed that Mesaana knew more about the stuff than they did. After all, she had been a fairly talented Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends, when all sorts of things were standard practice that are now only vaguely remembered myths.
So gambling on just a warding would not seem a sensible approach. Adding a couple of guards with crossbows would have significantly improved matters.

greatwolf
07-07-2011, 06:13 PM
However, she did know about the BA, yet she took no precautions against the possibility that there would be anyone else with Mesaana.


She also knew about other forsaken. She really should have taken the best precaution against the fact that all the forsaken and the shadow coming for her. RUN.

For all she knew, Mesaana might not even have taken the bait. Or she could have set a trap, ready to Travel and found she couldn't because of the dreamspike. Knowingly or not, she took the right course of action. And instinct is as much a part of any battle as luck.