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New Futurist Man
07-05-2011, 09:39 AM
In 'Lord of Chaos', in a chapter entitled 'Threads Woven of Shadow', its apparent that Sammael himself believes Demandred is posing as Taim - or at least it seems on the surface that that is what he thinks.

'"You deliver a message to Demandred from me. Tell him I know what he is up to." Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred had always liked using proxies. "Tell him to be careful. I won't have him or his friends interfering in my plans..[..]..So long as they steer clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear or he will answer for it."
>Threads Woven of Shadow, Lord of Chaos [page 179]

Could Sammael possibly be saying that Demandred is resident in or close to the Black Tower - yet not posing as Taim...? We know Demandred okay'd the attack on the Dragon at the end of TPoD - and that Taim seconded it - but Demandred's access to the rebel Asha'man has always been a mystery - Sammael goes a way to solving this by seeming to suggest some of the Asha'man are already in Demandred's pocket......

This raises another question: by ‘friends’ Sammael is obviously eluding to Rochaid (Baijan'm'hael, "attack leader"), Torval (Tsorovan'm'hael, "storm leader") and Kisman. We’ve never gotten an explanation why these Darkfriend channellers advanced so quickly through the ranks at the Black Tower. Logain has said before about Taim’s secret classes, which could account for the confidence and skill they had, but I think what’s more likely is that Rochaid and Co. knew how to channel before arriving at the Black Tower. Sammael was probably aware of the apparatus that inducts male channellers to the Shadow, and knew some of them were Demandred-trained and had shown up - or were going to show up - at the Black Tower.

*

Another reading of this could be based on the clause ‘events to the south...’ - the conversation between Graendal and Sammael took place in Arad Domon, from this location the Black Tower is to the South. But as Sammael only thought this particular passage to himself - it could easily be interpreted that ‘to the south’ refers to the south of Illian - in other words either those Seanchan attacking the Westlands or just Seanchan itself. Sammael’s statement ‘his lackeys can carve out what he wants' is as applicable to the Seanchan as to the Asha’man. But Sammael’s admission that Demandred ‘always liked using proxies’ strongly suggests that Sammael believes Demandred is involved with machinations at the Black Tower.

Zombie Sammael
07-05-2011, 10:03 AM
The statement "Demandred had always liked using proxies" might suggest Demandred isn't actually in disguise as anyone, but safely and quietly hidden somewhere manipulating events through agents. Although, one incongruity is that at the point in LOC where Sammael makes the statement you're talking about, the Asha'man and BT are just getting started and are not yet a well-known phenomenon such that word (beyond rumour) would have reached Sammael in Illian. It's only after the battle of Dumai's Wells, if I recall correctly, that the Asha'man have any particular status worthy of such note. So with that in mind, it implies Sammael is talking about something else taking place in the south at that time. Given the DO's instructions at the time, it might even mean something as simple as Demandred is spending his time balefiring the Land of Madmen to cause the pattern to unravel.

Davian93
07-05-2011, 10:11 AM
I always felt that Sammael was referring to The Return as having Demandred's markings all over it. Considering that we later find out that Semi (Demandred's ally) is pulling the strings behind the Return and that Suroth (the leader of the Return at the time of Sammael's comments) is the lead person and a darkfriend, it makes sense that that is what Sammael is referring to.

Also, The Return is taking place directly south of Arad Doman, not East, Southeast like the Black Tower would be in relation to Arad Doman.

New Futurist Man
07-05-2011, 01:45 PM
"one incongruity is that at the point in LOC where Sammael makes the statement you're talking about, the Asha'man and BT are just getting started and are not yet a well-known phenomenon such that word (beyond rumour) would have reached Sammael in Illian. It's only after the battle of Dumai's Wells, if I recall correctly, that the Asha'man have any particular status worthy of such note. So with that in mind, it implies Sammael is talking about something else..." > Zombie Sammael

However my point about Rochaid, Torval and Kisman undergoing training prior to being inducted into the Black Tower should explain away the apparent anonymity of the Asha'man at this point of the story. Consider: within months of joining the Black Tower these three - all of whom, not coincidentally, are sworn to the Shadow - are leading 40 Soldiers and Dedicated against the Seanchan. Rochaid is even cocky enough to think he and another Asha'man could rout the Seanchan and their Damane all by themselves! This could be pure hubris - at this point the Asha'man have never faced a Damane - but according to the text of tPoD Rochaid and Co. come through the fighing unscathed, their only grievance being the odd behaviour of Saidin. In other words they go a way to fulfilling Rochaid's statement that they could wipe out the Seanchan. Could they really have gotten this lethal so quickly so that not even Damane who've been wielding the One Power for generations could stand against them!?

My theory has it that Rochaid, Kisman and Torval were known to Sammael prior to their surfacing at the Black Tower - because they were trained by Demandred. At the point of the story when Sammael and Graendal are talking Sammael must've been aware they were headed there.

Rochaid, Kisman and Torval being trained by Demandred is a good explanation of why they were able to get so good so quickly. In reality they were already quite skilled in using the Power before arriving at the Black Tower. Its a theory which is also supported by the fact that when Demandred wanted someone to attack the Sun Palace: it was to these three the order was given to - which hints at some sort of link that hasn't really come out in the story.

Zombie Sammael
07-05-2011, 01:49 PM
At the point in the story you are quoting from, Rochaid, Kisman, and Torval have yet to be introduced, or have been introduced only briefly. This doesn't destroy your theory and I agree that if Demandred were working through proxies Taim would make a brilliant proxy, but it seems a little too soon for Sammael to have knowledge of it.

Davian93
07-05-2011, 02:47 PM
Anything is possible I suppose...but its pretty much impossible to prove.

greatwolf
07-05-2011, 04:48 PM
My theory has it that Rochaid, Kisman and Torval were known to Sammael prior to their surfacing at the Black Tower - because they were trained by Demandred. At the point of the story when Sammael and Graendal are talking Sammael must've been aware they were headed there.

Rochaid, Kisman and Torval being trained by Demandred is a good explanation of why they were able to get so good so quickly. In reality they were already quite skilled in using the Power before arriving at the Black Tower. Its a theory which is also supported by the fact that when Demandred wanted someone to attack the Sun Palace: it was to these three the order was given to - which hints at some sort of link that hasn't really come out in the story.


If Taim is a DF, why would Demandred bypass him and give orders to the three directly? Especially since Taim gives the sane orders.

The Unreasoner
07-05-2011, 05:15 PM
i love how niall, taim, and alviarin are the three most competent agents of the shadow, and only one is a certain df.

anyway I thought Sammael was referring to the forerunners as well. the world's greatest army, efficient, and suddenly a major player?

side note
if semmirhage got what i would have assumed would be demandred's first choice of task, there is no resentment, so it must not have been.

maybe he actually wanted a df aiel clan with channelers of both genders, conveniently located in the blight.

New Futurist Man
07-05-2011, 06:33 PM
"If Taim is a DF, why would Demandred bypass him and give orders to the three directly? Especially since Taim gives the sane orders." greatwolf

This is my point. The theory goes that Rochaid, Torval and Kisman were partly trained by Demandred before they ever went to the Black Tower or met Taim. Therefore there loyalty was primarily to Demandred.

Accordingly Demandred would've maintained lines of contact with them and wouldn't have seen the need to involve or inform someone like Taim about the attack on the Sun Palace. Taim, lets face it, as far as Demandred is concerned, is pretty far down the pecking order and not someone Demandred would've felt had to be in on what he was planning - especially as it wasn't an attack meant to kill the Dragon just shake him up pretty bad.

New Futurist Man
07-05-2011, 06:44 PM
An interesting footnote to what went down at the Sun Palace is the presence of Aginor/Dashiva.

Something I'm unsure of is whether Taim knew Dashiva was Aginor?

It was at the mention of Dashiva's name that Taim appeared to lose his cool after the attack - why would this be?

If Taim didn't know Dashiva was Aginor he still must've suspected he was someone of importance, as presumably Dashiva required absolutely no training at the Black Tower. Which is bound to have alerted Taim that something was up. So what would possess Taim to seethe upon hearing Dashiva was there at the attack!?

Doesn't make sense.

Oneirist
07-06-2011, 03:06 AM
Kisman didn't seem too well-acquainted with Demandred from his POV in Winter's Heart, though, and he'd presumably have to be if he was training them personally.

greatwolf
07-06-2011, 06:27 AM
This is my point. The theory goes that Rochaid, Torval and Kisman were partly trained by Demandred before they ever went to the Black Tower or met Taim. Therefore there loyalty was primarily to Demandred.


That also means that Demandred had been training Taim alonside the others. Nothing we've seen shows that Taim considers the others as comrades trained by the same mentor. His attitude is one of master to student. In fact the DF ashaman seem to fear Taim more than anyone else.

And Taim is unlikely to be Demandred's student. He's learnt too much for the short period that Demandred has been free. And his use of the TP?

Davian93
07-06-2011, 08:59 AM
By the way, I find myself offended about the characterization of dumb, fat, white males in every sitcom who are guided by their ever tolerant and smarter wife. I am so offended. I just don't watch them I am that offended. Seriously, I am offended.


For the same reason that no less than 3 separate Chosen gave orders to Alviarin without each other knowing or the same reason that multiple Chosen have given orders to Liandrin's 13 sisters that fled in TGH....the Shadow doesn't exactly have a great Chain of Command. They are, by design, a fragmented compartimentalized cell structured organization with often differing movtives and leaders.

The fact that Demandred didnt go through Taim doesnt tell us anything at all as to Taim's allegiance at that time.

greatwolf
07-06-2011, 10:09 AM
The fact that Demandred didnt go through Taim doesnt tell us anything at all as to Taim's allegiance at that time.

This is quite different from the examples you gave. I wasn't talking about multiple orders from above. The theory is that Demandred trained Taim and the ashaman who carried out the strike but if so why leave Taim outside the orders he gave concerning Rand?

GonzoTheGreat
07-06-2011, 10:19 AM
This is quite different from the examples you gave. I wasn't talking about multiple orders from above. The theory is that Demandred trained Taim and the ashaman who carried out the strike but if so why leave Taim outside the orders he gave concerning Rand?He may have intended to kill the perps if they actually managed to kill Rand. Involving Taim needlessly would have added someone else who could testify that Demandred had given those orders. Since the DO did not seem to want Rand killed right at that moment, not leaving anyone who could rat him out makes sense.

Davian93
07-06-2011, 12:02 PM
This is quite different from the examples you gave. I wasn't talking about multiple orders from above. The theory is that Demandred trained Taim and the ashaman who carried out the strike but if so why leave Taim outside the orders he gave concerning Rand?

Well, Taim doesn't need to know for one. Second, Demandred doesnt seem like a sharer to me.

3rd, I dont think Demandred is running Taim, I think Moridin is.

greatwolf
07-06-2011, 12:49 PM
Well, Taim doesn't need to know for one. Second, Demandred doesnt seem like a sharer to me.

3rd, I dont think Demandred is running Taim, I think Moridin is.

For the record, Moridin is running everything including Demandred. And for the other, I 'm only staying with the topic.

Davian93
07-06-2011, 12:57 PM
For the record, Moridin is running everything including Demandred. And for the other, I 'm only staying with the topic.

No crap. My point, had you paid attention, was that Demandred wasn't and isn't running Taim thus there is no reason for Demandred to go through him to get Ashaman for his schemes.

New Futurist Man
07-06-2011, 01:17 PM
Sorry, perhaps I should have been clearer exactly what the theory entails.

"The theory is that Demandred trained Taim and the ashaman who carried out the strike but if so why leave Taim outside the orders he gave concerning Rand?" > greatwolf

The theory IS NOT that Demandred trained Taim - the theory is that he trained Rochaid, Torval and Kisman.

As far as Taim's training is concerned I think its conceivable what he says about that is mostly true. Though I support the theory Moridin is now contributing to his skills in the Power - but certainly not Demandred.

"Kisman didn't seem too well-acquainted with Demandred from his POV in Winter's Heart, though, and he'd presumably have to be if he was training them personally." > Oneirist

True. Though Demandred doesn't seem the type to be too pally with his underlings. Its a possibility Torval and Rochaid stood highest so were better acquainted with Demandred - they were the Asha'man with the titles 'Attack Leader' and 'Storm Leader', so there is some small foundation for that. Being Demandred-trained would probably impart the kind of confidence that would allow them to invent titles of there own.

greatwolf
07-07-2011, 03:09 AM
No crap. My point, had you paid attention, was that Demandred wasn't and isn't running Taim thus there is no reason for Demandred to go through him to get Ashaman for his schemes.

The theory IS NOT that Demandred trained Taim - the theory is that he trained Rochaid, Torval and Kisman.


Let's make this clear. You think Demandred trained Rochy and co but not Taim, and later sent them to the BT under Taim? Then gave them orders to kill Rand without informing Taim?

Maybe I should be clearer about this myself. The way the DF ashaman treat Taim is like he's one of the forsaken (or at least much higher than themselves) and also they are his students. Though the theory has possibilities, you'd need to plug holes like that before it stands much of a chance IMO.

And Demandred training the three but not Taim, and putting them under Taim? Well like Dav said, he certainly isn't much of a sharer.

Davian93
07-07-2011, 09:46 AM
Let's make this clear. You think Demandred trained Rochy and co but not Taim, and later sent them to the BT under Taim? Then gave them orders to kill Rand without informing Taim?

Maybe I should be clearer about this myself. The way the DF ashaman treat Taim is like he's one of the forsaken (or at least much higher than themselves) and also they are his students. Though the theory has possibilities, you'd need to plug holes like that before it stands much of a chance IMO.

And Demandred training the three but not Taim, and putting them under Taim? Well like Dav said, he certainly isn't much of a sharer.

Personally, I dont think Demandred trained anyone...he just doesnt seem the type. Odds are he just used an available resource to carry out an attack as every other Chosen is wont to do. He no more trained them than anyone specifically trained Liandrin prior to her leaving the WT. That's what Taim's for, that's what Alviarin and the BA are for.

JOS
07-07-2011, 03:44 PM
Sorry, perhaps I should have been clearer exactly what the theory entrails.



The theory IS NOT that Demandred trained Taim - the theory is that he trained Rochaid, Torval and Kisman.

As far as Taim's training is concerned I think its conceivable what he says about that is mostly true. Though I support the theory Moridin is now contributing to his skills in the Power - but certainly not Demandred.

We have seen a number of secret meetings of the shadow that include non-channelers and female channelers. What if the Black Tower isn't the first attempt to gather male channelers? Doesn't the speed that the Black Tower amasses recruits raise any red flags to anyone? There are probably tons of plants within the tower. Rand initially suspected this would happen when he and Taim set up the Black Tower, though he was expecting the Forsaken to show up, not "proxies".

The question is, does Taim know? If so, when did he find out? How many Forsaken are manipulating the Black Tower? How many male channelers does the shadow really have?

I personally think that Demandred has only committed a few resources to the Black Tower to sow chaos and garner some recruits (voluntary or not, I doubt he cares)

Where could Demandred hide an army of male channelers? There are many possibilities including Murandy, the Blight, Shara, and all of the other locations that have been proposed for his "secure" rule.

greatwolf
07-07-2011, 06:25 PM
. What if the Black Tower isn't the first attempt to gather male channelers? Doesn't the speed that the Black Tower amasses recruits raise any red flags to anyone? .

I don't see the red flags but it is doubtful that Ishamael does not have a set of male channelers somewhere. Dreadlords became public knowledge during the trolloc wars as I recall, so he must have been recruiting and training somehow. The BA plot about a false dragon suggests as much.

The real question is how many and how well trained.

Zombie Sammael
07-07-2011, 06:33 PM
Yeah, the accumulation rate of male channelers is largely down to acceleration of recruitment. Basically the first people who show up wanting to use this incredibly dangerous guaranteed death super-power are a few risk-takers and nuts, but as they do it and learn, some others start to think, "Well if they can do it," and "They've not gone mad and died yet" and "Surely the Dragon has a plan". I wouldn't be surprised if the Black Tower had seen a spike in recruitment following the cleansing; it's the sort of thing that even if only an unconfirmed rumour would persuade someone who was interested but worried about the "going mad and dying" bit of the deal.

New Futurist Man
07-07-2011, 08:32 PM
Let's make this clear. You think Demandred trained Rochy and co but not Taim, and later sent them to the BT under Taim? Then gave them orders to kill Rand without informing Taim?

Yeah.

The way the DF ashaman treat Taim is like he's one of the forsaken (or at least much higher than themselves) and also they are his students.

The way some Asha'man sworn to the Shadow treat Taim is as though he's one of the Forsaken. Can that be said of Rochaid and co.? Was there a scene when they displayed such deference to Taim? The sequence as I remember it is there turning up after characters like Grady, Narishma, Flinn, Hopwil etc. were inducted into the Black Tower - all of whom have proven highly adept channellers - yet still outpaced them in learning the Power, so much so that they were the ones to lead the Asha'man against the Seanchan.

Surely all this expertise couldn't have come solely from Taim's secret classes?

Flinn, Grady, Narishma, Morr and co. never showed any particular weakness, with the exception of Morr's block, and the text has never suggested any of them were slow learners - so what explanation do we have that Rochaid and Torval were able to outstrip them even though they arrived at the Black Tower later?

Taim's secret classes is always an option, but I think they were too advanced for that - the campaign against the Seanchan would have been mere months after Rochaid and co.'s induction - months!!! They showed too much skill, too much cockiness to be trained for just a couple months in the use of the Power!

And Demandred training the three but not Taim, and putting them under Taim? Well like Dav said, he certainly isn't much of a sharer.

The problem with this objection is that Demandred is unlikely to hold Taim in the kind of esteem most of us do. In the scumbag stakes, Demandred is a few lengths clear of Taim yet. And in terms of skill with the Power - there is no comparison!

How Alviarin - a top-ranking Black Sister - behaved toward Mesaana is probably a good indication of the chasm in standing that also separates Taim and Demandred. As Demandred is unlikely to see Taim a threat, there is no reason why he wouldn't insert some of his own channellers into the Black Tower - enabling them to get close to the Dragon and cause the kind of distress there attack on the Sun Palace did.

The Unreasoner
07-07-2011, 09:16 PM
How Alviarin - a top-ranking Black Sister - behaved toward Mesaana is probably a good indication of the chasm in standing that also separates Taim and Demandred. As Demandred is unlikely to see Taim a threat, there is no reason why he wouldn't insert some of his own channellers into the Black Tower - enabling them to get close to the Dragon and cause the kind of distress there attack on the Sun Palace did.

I think that no one in their right mind would not see Taim as at least a potential threat. and servants of the shadow are naturally suspicious. Taim has an army of relatively sane unbound male channelers trained as weapons and loyal to him. The Black tower may be the most powerful wildcard in randland.

otherwise, don't you think taim would have noticed it if some potential students had already been channelling a great deal? i doubt demandred would have taught his lackeys how to mask ability like dashiva.

David Selig
07-07-2011, 09:23 PM
The sequence as I remember it is there turning up after characters like Grady, Narishma, Flinn, Hopwil etc. were inducted into the Black Tower - all of whom have proven highly adept channellers - yet still outpaced them in learning the Power, so much so that they were the ones to lead the Asha'man against the Seanchan.
They were the ones who lead the Asha'man because they were Taim's favourites among his Darkfriend cronies. I don't recall any indication that they were more skilled or faster learners than Flinn or Narishma. Certainly none of them had come up with something as impressive as Flinn's Healing weaves.

Toss the dice
07-07-2011, 09:30 PM
I also don't think the rate of recruitment is strange. There is no doubt some of the recruits were Darkfriends before they joined, but they are likely insignificant to the whole when it comes to the numbers. I would guess the vast majority of the current Darkfriends in the Black Tower were converted to the Shadow afterwards.

Toss the dice
07-07-2011, 09:38 PM
They were the ones who lead the Asha'man because they were Taim's favourites among his Darkfriend cronies. I don't recall any indication that they were more skilled or faster learners than Flinn or Narishma. Certainly none of them had come up with something as impressive as Flinn's Healing weaves.

To be fair, Flinn had help from Dashiva (Aginor) with the Healing weaves. Flinn DID have an excellent natural ability at Healing, but Dashiva seemed to have planted the necessary seed for him to bring out this ability.

That said, I would easily pit Flinn against Rochaid, Kisman, etc. Maybe not Narishma at the time they were alive, as he had quite a bit to go with his potential yet, but Flinn was both very strong for an Ashaman and skilled.

New Futurist Man
07-07-2011, 09:42 PM
I think that no one in their right mind would not see Taim as at least a potential threat. The Black tower may be the most powerful wildcard in randland.

I agree on both counts. But I stated that Demandred wouldn't see a problem inserting channellers loyal to himself into the Black Tower. This doesn't mean Demandred is entirely ignorant of what Taim is capable of.

The point is: I can't see Demandred fearing channellers he's partially taught switching allegiance to Taim. That's all we're really talking about.

..don't you think taim would have noticed it if some potential students had already been channelling a great deal? i doubt demandred would have taught his lackeys how to mask ability like dashiva.

Why would Demandred have any reservations about alerting Taim to the fact Rochaid and co. served him? I haven't suggested he did. I simply stated Taim may have been out of the loop as regards the attack on the Sun Palace.

On the subject of Dashiva: how did he mask his ability? All that was required of him was he not execute any AoL weaves in front of the Dragon, this isn't exactly "masking" anything.

In terms of Dashiva/Aginor's strength in the Power - the Dragon was very much aware of it.

New Futurist Man
07-07-2011, 09:56 PM
They were the ones who lead the Asha'man because they were Taim's favourites among his Darkfriend cronies. I don't recall any indication that they were more skilled or faster learners than Flinn or Narishma. Certainly none of them had come up with something as impressive as Flinn's Healing weaves.

As regards there achievements with the Power:

1. They reached full Asha'man status in a shorter timescale than most - if not all - of the Asha'man in the Dragon's company;

2. Neither there leadership skills nor there skill with the Power was remarked upon or contested during any of the Dragon's POVs - which suggests they were as adept as they made out to be;

3. They appeared to link/synchronize with Dashiva during the attack on the Sun Palace to effect the massive club of air that destroyed part of the Palace - a tricky manoeuvre we've seen other Shadow-trained channellers do, most notably outside Maradon - (and I don't think this is something Taim teaches....)

Also: there's no indication they were Taim's "favorites". Indeed, Demandred's order that they attack the Sun Palace - which Taim second'd - he did cognizant that he was sending them to there death, a fact that hardly escaped Taim - this is hardly how Taim would treat his favourites. I think he keeps those close by.

greatwolf
07-08-2011, 02:25 AM
I think that no one in their right mind would not see Taim as at least a potential threat. and servants of the shadow are naturally suspicious. Taim has an army of relatively sane unbound male channelers trained as weapons and loyal to him. The Black tower may be the most powerful wildcard in randland.

Doubt the wildcard bit. Ishamael must have a dreadlord base somewhere (including women?, now that's a thought) and some of those dreadlords may be a great deal older than Taim.

The main attraction is a recruitment center where they can also keep tabs on the FoL. Its obvious quite a few would be attracted to the idea of protection from taint induced madness. And Taim helped this by using forcing to train.

In terms of Dashiva/Aginor's strength in the Power - the Dragon was very much aware of it.

Agreed. It would be rather suspicious if Dashiva came to the BT for training and his strength did not change over time. But then it is difficult to tell with men.

The Unreasoner
07-08-2011, 02:44 AM
a group of dreadlords is no 'wildcard'. the purged white tower isn't one either.

the bt can still go either (or both) way(s).

WinespringBrother
07-08-2011, 12:28 PM
We have seen a number of secret meetings of the shadow that include non-channelers and female channelers. What if the Black Tower isn't the first attempt to gather male channelers? Doesn't the speed that the Black Tower amasses recruits raise any red flags to anyone? There are probably tons of plants within the tower. Rand initially suspected this would happen when he and Taim set up the Black Tower, though he was expecting the Forsaken to show up, not "proxies".

The question is, does Taim know? If so, when did he find out? How many Forsaken are manipulating the Black Tower? How many male channelers does the shadow really have?

I personally think that Demandred has only committed a few resources to the Black Tower to sow chaos and garner some recruits (voluntary or not, I doubt he cares)

Where could Demandred hide an army of male channelers? There are many possibilities including Murandy, the Blight, Shara, and all of the other locations that have been proposed for his "secure" rule.


I don't see the red flags but it is doubtful that Ishamael does not have a set of male channelers somewhere. Dreadlords became public knowledge during the trolloc wars as I recall, so he must have been recruiting and training somehow. The BA plot about a false dragon suggests as much.

The real question is how many and how well trained.

Yeah.



The way some Asha'man sworn to the Shadow treat Taim is as though he's one of the Forsaken. Can that be said of Rochaid and co.? Was there a scene when they displayed such deference to Taim? The sequence as I remember it is there turning up after characters like Grady, Narishma, Flinn, Hopwil etc. were inducted into the Black Tower - all of whom have proven highly adept channellers - yet still outpaced them in learning the Power, so much so that they were the ones to lead the Asha'man against the Seanchan.

Surely all this expertise couldn't have come solely from Taim's secret classes?

Flinn, Grady, Narishma, Morr and co. never showed any particular weakness, with the exception of Morr's block, and the text has never suggested any of them were slow learners - so what explanation do we have that Rochaid and Torval were able to outstrip them even though they arrived at the Black Tower later?

Taim's secret classes is always an option, but I think they were too advanced for that - the campaign against the Seanchan would have been mere months after Rochaid and co.'s induction - months!!! They showed too much skill, too much cockiness to be trained for just a couple months in the use of the Power!



The problem with this objection is that Demandred is unlikely to hold Taim in the kind of esteem most of us do. In the scumbag stakes, Demandred is a few lengths clear of Taim yet. And in terms of skill with the Power - there is no comparison!

How Alviarin - a top-ranking Black Sister - behaved toward Mesaana is probably a good indication of the chasm in standing that also separates Taim and Demandred. As Demandred is unlikely to see Taim a threat, there is no reason why he wouldn't insert some of his own channellers into the Black Tower - enabling them to get close to the Dragon and cause the kind of distress there attack on the Sun Palace did.


I posted a theory a while back (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=83&theo=2211) since I noticed those red flags also. As for where this army could be hidden, perhaps it is that hidden _____ in the blight that Wilson Grooms mentioned in a Q&A.

greatwolf
07-08-2011, 05:09 PM
Basically the first people who show up wanting to use this incredibly dangerous guaranteed death super-power are a few risk-takers and nuts,


Actually they were selected from among those who came to follow the dragon. It was later recruiting parties from the BT started going out.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Black Tower had seen a spike in recruitment following the cleansing; it's the sort of thing that even if only an unconfirmed rumour would persuade someone who was interested but worried about the "going mad and dying" bit of the deal

Well Rand didn't publish the fact that saidin had been cleansed after shadar logoth or since. Think of it as part of the taint madness. :)

With the LB coming, I think quite a few might want to try their hand at channeling. And marriage, and a number of other things that they might not have normally done. Yeah, the LB alters chance too. :)

greatwolf
07-14-2011, 05:39 PM
I posted a theory a while back (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=83&theo=2211) since I noticed those red flags also. As for where this army could be hidden, perhaps it is that hidden _____ in the blight that Wilson Grooms mentioned in a Q&A.


Actually your theory was about a shadow BT, perhaps a dreadlord training base, and this is about who trained Kisman and co before they got to the BT.

The two overlap to some degree. Yet I think your theory could be updated. You might want to consider the following points:

1. Recruiting. While it is reasonable to assume that Ishy has been training dreadlords for centuries, the question begs, how does he get them? I think it is possible to detect a man who can channel with a weave.

Rand used a weave set for a man to detain asmo in FoH. If that's possible I think it would be possible to detect a man who can channel with it. Maybe they used a similar thing in the aol.

The second ready source would be the men that the aiel send to die in the blight. There will be some of those who will be ready to turn to the shadow for obvious reasons - protection against the taint, immortality, rewards and such.

2. Training for dreadlords may have included military tactics. That could account for Taim's success at irinjavar to some extent. That suggests Ishy trained Taim not demandred. And Ishy might have given his dreadlords military training himself or gotten someone to do it. But even with someone else doing the teaching, he would have gained considerable expertise over the course of 3000years or so.

3. Taim's initial mission must have changed. It appears he was sent to replace asmodean, but became a trainer. But if Rand was going to train male channelers, then Taim would obviously need support staff to monitor things there for the shadow.

4. Ishy could use a lot of places as a base without anyone being the wiser. Many reasons for this such as the BA in the WT, the fact that the men would be using saidin which women cannot detect and Traveliing. With Travelling he can have a base in the blight and keep it well supplied. Or even in the seanchan held lands where the damane would never be able to sense anything.

5. How many men are being trained as dreadlords at any given time? One, two four? Unless the shadow has a very active recruitment policy of some sort, there won't be too many at once. Not enough to need a "Tower". Some lord's isolated estates will do. However a few per year for 3000years does add up.

JOS
07-14-2011, 11:00 PM
I posted a theory a while back (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=83&theo=2211) since I noticed those red flags also. As for where this army could be hidden, perhaps it is that hidden _____ in the blight that Wilson Grooms mentioned in a Q&A.

Just read your theory, and with the new information we have since 2006 (the last time anyone commented on the theory) I think time has only re-enforced that Demandred and not Ishmael that is gathering Dreadlords (maybe together, but they don't seem the type).

He is supposed to be this great general, and we haven't seen a lick of him in the fight with the light. If he were just twiddling his thumbs I think Moridin would have beat him down and put him to work with a mindtrap.

Enigma
07-16-2011, 10:42 AM
One question about Ishamael or any of the forsaken training male dreadlords? How did they ensure they survived the taint?

If' I'm not mistaken RJ said in intervies that the DO's protection against the taint was only put in place when the forsaken first got freed. Isy probably used the TP when he got out from time to time and the rest of the male forsaken after the sealing at the end of the Aol did not have the DO's protection. Again I am reasonably sure RJ stated this as fact during interviews.

With that in mind I could see someone like Ishamael taking the time to give some lessons to the likes of Taim who is a high value channeler but did he have the time required for a larger class? When he got loose most of his time seemed to be taken up by trying to tempt Rand, keep an eye on the rest of what the forsaken were doing and getting the darkfriend network geared up for a war footing. Time to look after even say twenty men who need teaching? That takes time and requires that one be around to keep a close watch on the students. That was why Rand needed Taim, he did not have the time himself.