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klye
07-05-2011, 11:44 PM
I HOPE that we get another on screen event with the black wind. It's a plot point that has fallen away, unused, for to long.

Oh... and I wondered... HOW is Demondred moving crazy amounts of trollock through the way gates with Machin Shin roaming around? It's not like the emonds field attack, or even the massive attack on the manor. In those cases, you could argue they moved in small packs and got out of the ways. So they could fairly slowly build up a ridiculous force.

But, in this forth coming attack on camelyn, wont they need a fairly sizeable intial force in the thousands? (sp). And then constantly re-enforce that army with a fairly steady flow of new trollocs?

HOW is machin shin not eating 60% - 80% of this invading army?

Ieyasu
07-06-2011, 12:45 AM
But, in this forth coming attack on camelyn, wont they need a fairly sizeable intial force in the thousands? (sp). And then constantly re-enforce that army with a fairly steady flow of new trollocs?

HOW is machin shin not eating 60% - 80% of this invading army?

What makes you think machin shin did not eat 60-80% of that invading army?

GonzoTheGreat
07-06-2011, 03:36 AM
Perhaps Demandred is simply luring MS away, by inserting groups of Trollocs into selected parts of the Ways, thus letting the black wind chase (and eat) them, while the main armies can move along different pathways unharmed.

Of course, that would require knowing the Ways very well, and it could now and then go a bit wrong, costing a hundred thousand Trollocs once a week or so, but overall it might work.

greatwolf
07-06-2011, 05:36 AM
We've seen that Machin shin can be hurt (Moiraine)and we also know it can be commanded(Fain).

It isn't beyond reason that the forsaken have figured this out also and maybe able to ward against it. Remember the trollocs at the Manor battle were warded in some that they were not sensed until close enough to be seen. And finally Ishamael has had several years to prepare this.

FelixPax
07-06-2011, 05:52 AM
Oh... and I wondered... HOW is Demondred moving crazy amounts of trollock through the way gates with Machin Shin roaming around?

As far I know, no direct answer has been given anywhere in the series.


For all readers, might guess... the Machin Shin has been be re-routed to Shara?

Sacrifice the slaves to the Black Wind at the gates of the Ways, in Shara?


It's pure speculation, granted. Although, there are clues that Borderland Ogier Elders have betrayed the Light. Which means the Shadow has access likely to an ability to create new Ways gates.

Whereas it can be deduced by Ogier accents & breeding, that the Ways does NOT exist anywhere in the Seanchan continent nor islands.

A key is the "Longing". Seanchan Ogiers lack it, while Westlander Ogiers have it. Ogiers live a very long time. Ogiers generally seek a partner, from a different Stedding than their home Stedding. Meaning Ogiers used the Ways years ago to travel to distance Steddings to seek a spouse or husband--or their parents did, for their children.

Question is do the Ways exist in Shara?
If so, are they a recent phenomena or an old one?

Were Ways created elsewhere in the world, say the Island of Madmen?


I could see Moridin being nuts enough, to have his allied Shadow Ogiers Elders being forced to made a Ways gateway on the Island of Madmen. Then just leave the Gate open... allow the Machin Shin to eat up the habitants... so it's not so common in the rest of the Ways system.

Point is to move the Machin Shin elsewhere, in order to be more free to move Trollocs around.


A key point which opens up exceptions is, when did the Borderlands Ogier Elders ultimately decide to betray the Westlanders and their fellow Ogiers? Why?

Talisman of Growing Waygates.


“When the last Aes Sedai left the stedding, they gave to the Elders a key, a talisman, that could be used for growing more. They are a living thing in some fashion, the Ways and the Waygates. I do not understand it; no Ogier ever has, and even the Aes Sedai have forgotten, I am told. Over the years the Exile ended for us. As those Ogier who had been gifted by the Aes Sedai found a stedding where Ogier had returned from the Long Wandering, they grew a Way to it.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 43 "Decisions and Apparitions" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; Loial speaking.


Demandred or Moridin could have directed Ogiers to grow a direct Waygate anywhere, from the Malkier Waygate controlled by the Shadow.



Shadow Coast Mountains,
Black Hills,
Mountains of Mist,
Isle of Madmen,
South Polar Ice Cap,
North Polar Ice Cap,
Shara,
Seanchan



New Plumbing = Less Problems?
Open question.


“As I was saying,” the Ogier went on, “the Aes Sedai, the male Sedai, left. But before they went, they gave a gift to the Ogier in thanks for our sanctuary. The Ways. Enter a Waygate, walk for a day, and you may depart through another Waygate a hundred miles from where you started. Or five hundred. Time and distance are strange in the Ways. Different paths, different bridges, lead to different places, and how long it takes to get there depends on which path you take. It was a marvelous gift, made more so by the times, for the Ways are not part of the world we see around us, nor perhaps of any world outside themselves. Not only did the Ogier so gifted not have to travel through the world, where even after the Breaking men fought like animals to live, in order to reach another stedding, but within the Ways there was no Breaking. The land between two stedding might split open into deep canyons or rise in mountain ranges, but in the Way between them there was no change.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 43 "Decisions and Apparitions" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; Loial speaking.

greatwolf
07-06-2011, 09:30 AM
Talisman of Growing Waygates.

I don't think Moridin has the talisman Felix, so he can't grow new waygates, at least not between the cleansing and now.

Of course the question of DF ogier brings up the possibility of betrayal. Loial told Rand the waygates would be guarded except for two in the shadow mountains, so the shadow shouldn't be able to use the ways except in places like Cairhien.

klye
07-06-2011, 12:41 PM
I considered that the on screen trollocs = whats left over after machin shin takes its lunch cut. We always hear that there is SO MANY trollocs.

But that really not a terriby good answer. I could just as easily argue that MS eats them so fast, that it follows them to the place they are leaving the ways. Then, since more trollocs are coming, it could just sit there and eat continuously. Either arguement is equally likely, since we have so little information.

And since we've seen .. (what? a 1 1/2 years ago in FoH?) ...that the forsaken didn't have a way to prevent machin shin from eating everything in the ways without moving really small bands. So I think it's unlikely that the dark side has finnally figured out how to control the thing.

I dont know... the luring away sounds also unlikely. How do you know that MS would go to the right place? It might just find the attacking force in stead of the bait force. After all, this attcking force is goign to be alot of trollocs. It's alot of luck to rely on. But Demandred, great general, wouldn't plan an attack this way. He's been organizing this well timed attack for a while now I bet.

This is a question I wish I could ask BS about. If it wasnt RAFO'ed.

Zombie Sammael
07-06-2011, 12:46 PM
In TGH, Machin Shin was following Rand around, i.e. it was always at whatever waygate Rand was. It might still be doing that, which would enable Shadow-y sorts to plan for it. Of course, that doesn't explain how the manor attack was able to take place, but since it was likely the work of Fain and Fain has a slightly more complex relationship with the Black Wind anyway, that might.

kabkaba
07-06-2011, 01:44 PM
We have actually seen the Talisman. In the terangreal stash that the girls find, Avi identifies one that requires singing to grow something. What else do you think this is?
But I don't believe there are any Darkfriend Ogier. Ogier are simply a race of light side creatures.

ChubbyAiel
07-07-2011, 06:57 AM
It's pure speculation, granted. Although, there are clues that Borderland Ogier Elders have betrayed the Light. Which means the Shadow has access likely to an ability to create new Ways gates.

What clues are they?

Lupusdeusest
07-07-2011, 08:21 AM
Weren't stedding and Gates mentioned to have fallen to the Blight? I think they were even on a map - the same one that clued me to the Gate near the Fingers of the Dragon and Altara.
(Where is that thing?!? Yield to me, Google!)

greatwolf
07-08-2011, 01:03 AM
We have actually seen the Talisman. In the terangreal stash that the girls find, Avi identifies one that requires singing to grow something. What else do you think this is?
But I don't believe there are any Darkfriend Ogier. Ogier are simply a race of light side creatures.


Probably, but the point is that since it was found with the Kin, then the shadow has had access to it for a while, if ever.

And RJ said Ogier can be DFs. I think we will see quite a few among the Seanchan and also the areas were waygates were compromised, IMO.

missbee
07-08-2011, 06:53 AM
I think we've all been underestimating Shaidar Haran's role. This, after all, is the start of TG. It is a fully sanctioned 'official' attack and even Verin knew it was going to happen well in advance (all the way back in Algarin manor, I believe).
And another thought - Machin Shin is a product of the taint, isn't it? Do we know if it still exists? Or did it get wiped out with the cleansing?

The Unreasoner
07-08-2011, 07:37 AM
I think the same principles that leave channelers mad once the taint is gone apply here with machin shin.

What are you saying about SH though? what connection is there with machin shin?

Zombie Sammael
07-08-2011, 07:54 AM
I think the same principles that leave channelers mad once the taint is gone apply here with machin shin.

Not quite the same - the Ways have begun, I believe, to lighten and now look like the world just after dawn as opposed to in dead of night. If it is a similar effect, however, note that post-taint madness can be cured, so presumably with the right study the Ways could be fixed as well.

GonzoTheGreat
07-08-2011, 08:02 AM
I think that writing a POV scene for Machin Shin would be quite difficult. Interesting to read, though.

missbee
07-08-2011, 08:18 AM
What are you saying about SH though? what connection is there with machin shin?

I've been doing a selective re-read recently and have been struck by the fact that there are a lot of hints that the DO has his own plans and manipulates the FO just as much as the FO try to manipulate everyone else. Not every attack has to be the work of the Chosen. Take Algarin manor, personally I don't believe it was Fain (for numerous reasons), but it could have been Shaidar Haran, moving on DO's direct orders and without Moridin's knowledge.
The DO was able to provide protection against the taint, it just seems logical that Shaidar Haran could be empowered to do something similar and guide Trollocs through the Ways.

Zombie Sammael
07-08-2011, 08:30 AM
I've been doing a selective re-read recently and have been struck by the fact that there are a lot of hints that the DO has his own plans and manipulates the FO just as much as the FO try to manipulate everyone else. Not every attack has to be the work of the Chosen. Take Algarin manor, personally I don't believe it was Fain (for numerous reasons), but it could have been Shaidar Haran, moving on DO's direct orders and without Moridin's knowledge.
The DO was able to provide protection against the taint, it just seems logical that Shaidar Haran could be empowered to do something similar and guide Trollocs through the Ways.

I think there is a danger of over-stating the connection between Machin Shin and the taint. They are similar, both thematically and mechanically, but I think it is important to remember that while the taint was a deliberate act of aggression on the part of the Dark One, the black wind is more akin to a form of bacterial contamination, yes resulting out of the use of tainted Saidin in the making of the Ways, but also evidently of itself separate from the taint. The interesting question is whether now that the taint is gone, Machin Shin is capable of sustaining itself without it; my guess is yes.

GonzoTheGreat
07-08-2011, 09:37 AM
Actually, I would say that the Taint too is quite akin to a bacterial (or viral) pollution on top of saidin. Every time male channeled he risked getting infected, and the more exposure the less the chance of fighting off the infection. But the precise symptoms were not under the DO's control, they were basically random.
Thus, one could say that Machin Shin is the infection which results from the Taint, but now infecting the Ways instead of a male channeler.

Then again, considering the fact that using the TP Ishamael managed to cure LTT's madness, it does stand to reason that it might also be possible to cure the Ways. I don't think anyone from the Shadow side would make the effort, though. Losing some Trollocs is more acceptable to them than having Moridin spent days or weeks on doing something that would benefit the Light almost as much as it would benefit the Shadow.

missbee
07-08-2011, 11:57 AM
... Then again, considering the fact that using the TP Ishamael managed to cure LTT's madness, it does stand to reason that it might also be possible to cure the Ways. I don't think anyone from the Shadow side would make the effort, though. Losing some Trollocs is more acceptable to them than having Moridin spent days or weeks on doing something that would benefit the Light almost as much as it would benefit the Shadow.
It all depends on the numbers, which we don't have. Does machin shin get full after a 100 trollocs or can it consume 100 thousand in one sitting, especially if they appear in a nice orderly que? If you want thousands of trollocs to arrive for battle and don't have a staging area (Caemlyn), then you will want to keep your losses down, not because you care for your troop's welfare, but because you need the numbers as fast as possible.
As to who would benefit from a 'cleaning' of the ways, I'll have to disagree. The DO needs the ways, Rand does not, he's making efforts to block them - his troops can Travel.
I'm not sure if the ways are clean, and if they are, whether it might be Rand's or Moridin's doing, but I do like the irony of Rand clearing the ways for the DO.
I do think that shaidar haran can hold machin shin back as necessary.

GonzoTheGreat
07-08-2011, 12:01 PM
But if the Ways are cleansed, then a couple of dozen AS and Asha'man positioned on the right Islands could exterminate any number of Shadowspawn which could possibly march in that direction, as they would have a perfectly defensible position there. On the other hand, with Machin Shin roaming around, such static defenses become untenable.

missbee
07-08-2011, 12:21 PM
True, but I don't think anyone on Rand's side has thought of this yet (apart from Verin , maybe, hypothetically), and they probably never will.
I think of this as one of those ripples Verin talked about in TGS 36 (to Mat):
“though I would argue that the cleansing itself is more like a pebble thrown into a pond. The ripples will take some time to reach the shore.”...

Juan
07-08-2011, 01:06 PM
It all depends on the numbers, which we don't have. Does machin shin get full after a 100 trollocs or can it consume 100 thousand in one sitting, especially if they appear in a nice orderly que?

Yep. This is what I'd like to know. One of the key pieces of information regarding this topic.

I'm inclined to think it cant eat more than x amount of y in one sitting... But if it could, it's a fatass and needs to be put on a weight-loss program.

Zombie Sammael
07-08-2011, 01:47 PM
Yep. This is what I'd like to know. One of the key pieces of information regarding this topic.

I'm inclined to think it cant eat more than x amount of y in one sitting... But if it could, it's a fatass and needs to be put on a weight-loss program.

It's an evil wind of death. Thinking it would be limited in what it could consume is as ridiculous as thinking mashadar would be limited in the people it could kill. These things feed off souls, remember. It's not like a soul is packed with calories.

ChubbyAiel
07-08-2011, 02:12 PM
It's an evil wind of death. Thinking it would be limited in what it could consume is as ridiculous as thinking mashadar would be limited in the people it could kill. These things feed off souls, remember. It's not like a soul is packed with calories.


"It's an evil wind of death... These things feed of souls" is a pretty weird concept in the first place. You've summed it up well, but what does that even mean?! How does one feed on a soul? How does that sustain the entity? What happens if it doesn't get any souls? Does it realy need souls? If not it isn't really "feeding". Does it take effort on its part to feed on such a soul? Could taking a soul from a being tire it or envigorate it as it goes, as in there being a clash of wills?

I really don't see how Juan and misbee are being ridiculous asking such a question...

Zombie Sammael
07-08-2011, 02:18 PM
"It's an evil wind of death... These things feed of souls" is a pretty weird concept in the first place. You've summed it up well, but what does that even mean?! How does one feed on a soul? How does that sustain the entity? What happens if it doesn't get any souls? Does it realy need souls? If not it isn't really "feeding". Does it take effort on its part to feed on such a soul? Could taking a soul from a being tire it or envigorate it as it goes, as in there being a clash of wills?

I really don't see how Juan and misbee are being ridiculous asking such a question...

"Feeds" probably isn't the right term. Machin Shin and Mashadar are essentially otherworldly beings. I don't think they're "powered" by the souls they consume at all. I think they would continue to exist if they didn't "eat" at all. Both are comparable in that both are "side effects" of different kinds of evil, and they seem to be tied to that evil specifically rather than any specific need to feed. The destruction of the soul and death both bring about is more likely simply an effect of meeting a being from Randland than a sign of an actual need to eat to sustain itself.

ChubbyAiel
07-08-2011, 02:30 PM
"Feeds" probably isn't the right term. Machin Shin and Mashadar are essentially otherworldly beings. I don't think they're "powered" by the souls they consume at all. I think they would continue to exist if they didn't "eat" at all. Both are comparable in that both are "side effects" of different kinds of evil, and they seem to be tied to that evil specifically rather than any specific need to feed. The destruction of the soul and death both bring about is more likely simply an effect of meeting a being from Randland than a sign of an actual need to eat to sustain itself.

That's fine, but the fact remains we don't know the mechanics of whatever term would be better than "feeding": do the entities engage in some kind of struggle with the victim's soul (which the entity will win in one-on-one and one-on-many scenarios, but might start to struggle in one-on-hundreds-of-thousands scenarios)? Do the entities have to in some way "digest" a soul they capture? Do they hunt them so they can torment those souls for a time before the soul winks out of existence, which would imply a time constraint on them? Do they come closer to "eating" them, but it takes a while for this process to be completed? Since the entities are finite within the arena they inhabit (and so Mchin Shin isn't everywhere in the Ways at once), are they finite in terms of their capacity to hold souls while they do whatever it is they do whatever they do with them?

GonzoTheGreat
07-09-2011, 02:52 AM
Machin Shin might be limited in how many Trollocs it can eat at once, but I don't think that is relevant. The Trollocs are also limited in how many of them can try to charge past at one single time, in this case by the width of the Ways. If Machin Shin can't eat more than (say) 6,832 Trollocs at a time, but no more than 714 can actually reach it during such a period, then the limitation on the Black Wind is irrelevant.

Similarly, if Mashadar fills a whole street, then it doesn't matter how many Trollocs you try to push through that street, none of them will pass alive. But it is possible (not safe) to take a detour around it through some other streets.