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FelixPax
07-06-2011, 12:03 PM
Disturbing Thoughts...


Set-up of Prophecy Facts:


“The Karaethon Cycle, the Prophecies of the Dragon, says that the Dragon will be reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount, where he died during the Breaking of the World.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 8 "The Dragon Reborn" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; Moiraine speaking, Siuan, Verin in room


Birth of the Dragon on a Phallus Slope: Dragonmount.


And Gitara Sedai started up out of her chair, her arms and legs rigid, trembling, her face as if she looked into the Pit of Doom at Shayol Ghul, and she cried out, ‘He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!’ And she fell forward into my arms, dead.”


The Great Hunt, Chapter 8 "The Dragon Reborn" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; Moiraine speaking, Siuan, Verin in room


Why did Prophecy acclaim "slopes", while Gitara's foretelling expressly said "slope"?

Why a plural in one case, yet a singular in another?



Essanik Cycle: the blind man's stand on his grave.


At the end of time,
when the many become one,
the last storm shall gather its angry winds
to destroy a land already dying.
And at its center,
the blind man shall stand
upon his own grave.
There he shall see again,
and weep for what has been wrought.


--from The Prophecies of the Dragon,
Essanik Cycle. Malhavish's
Official Translation, Imperial
Record House of Seandar,
Fourth Circle of Elevation.


The Gathering Storm, Epilogue--End Note Prophecy.





Problem number: one




Memories from the Second Age,
Tel Janin Aellinsar wants to spit:


He himself had outlived the great Lews Therin Telamon, handing out praise for victories he could not have won himself and expecting others to lap it up. His only regret was that the man had not left a grave for him to spit on.


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 6 "Threads Woven of Shadow" -- Tel Janin Aellinsar point of view; his thoughts.


How can one miss spitting upon the gigantic reigning phallus of the Westlands, piercing upwards to through the sky?

Even a dog like Tel Janin Aellinsar can aim, and hit that target!

...Dragonmount, a dark spike rising against the starry sky. (KoD Book, Chapter 1)



Rand al’Thor claims to be Lews Therin’s soul reborn. Yet that is highly problematic in light of Sammael’s claims that Lew Therin has no gravemarker or tomb.


If Lews Therin Telamon left no grave, who's commodious phallus tomb is Dragonmount?


No grave = No center of the storm.


Someone else is the Blindman, at the center of it all—Essanik Cycle’s text.


Who is the Dragon?






Tamra's Secret: Operation Foggy Basin


Tamra pointed all the Accepted to look in the wrong places.

Ignoring the break in the proprieties, Tamra continued without a pause. "As some of you may already know, an army is always accomplished by camp followers, sometimes more camp followers than there are soldiers. Many of these are craftfolk an army needs, the armors and fletchers, the blacksmiths and farriers and wagonwrights, but among them are soldiers' wives and other women. Since the army provided the shield to Tar Valon, I have decided to extend the bounty to those women also."


New Spring: The Novel, Chapter "Practice" -- Moiraine point of view, with all the Accepted in the Tower, Tamra speaking.


Whereas, Tamra real target seems to be in the City, itself.


"In thanksgiving for the continued safety of Tar Valon," she said, her voice carrying easily to everyone, "I have decided the Tower will give a bounty of one hundred crowns in gold to every woman in the city who bore a child between the day the first soldiers arrived and the day the threat is ended. It is being announced on the streets even as I speak."


New Spring: The Novel, Chapter "Practice" -- Moiraine point of view, with all the Accepted in the Tower, Tamra speaking.

However, Tamra never suggested posting a bounty for any child born in the Stedding on the Island of Tar Valon, yet not in the City. A blind spot?


Regardless, Tamra does not direct any of the Accepted to seeking out new born children on the Island.

Recall no Aes Sedai were in the White Tower at this time, and now Tamra has pushed every Accepted outside of the Island.


In essence, during the the day the Island of Tar Valon became almost empty of channelers. Only Novice & Tamra left?




Recall Tamra's Keeper of the Chronicles did?



“Gitara?” A wonder he did not sound strangled. He had heard that name more than once. It had been an Aes Sedai named Gitara Moroso, a woman with the Foretelling, who announced that the Dragon had been Reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount, and so set Moiraine and Siuan on their long search. It had been Gitara Moroso who years before that told “Shaiel” that unless she fled to the Waste, telling no one, and became a Maiden of the Spear, disaster would fall on Andor and the world.

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 16 “Tellings of the Wheel” – Rand point of view, his thoughts, in scene with Dyelin in Caemlyn Palace


Why is Tigraine Mantear told to say nothing in essense?

Because it would expose a shielding lie, a lie Gitara Moroso has constructed to protect the true Dragon identity, from those who would harm him.


Moving on...





Problem Number: two


Set-up of Facts



Prophecies of the Dragon: "wed to no man"



“Egwene,” Elayne said, “you know who He Who Comes With the Dawn must be, don’t you?”

Staring at Nynaeve’s back still well ahead of them, Egwene shook her head—Does she mean to race us to Jurene?—then almost stopped walking. “You do not mean—?”

Elayne nodded. “I think so. I do not know much of the Prophecies of the Dragon, but I have heard a few lines. One I remember is,‘On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born, born of a maiden wedded to no man.’ Egwene, Rand does look like an Aiel. Well, he looks like the pictures I have seen of Tigraine, too, but she vanished before he was born, and I hardly think she could have been his mother anyway. I think Rand’s mother was a Maiden of the Spear.”


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 39 "Threads in the Pattern" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with Elayne, Nynaeve, Aviendha, Jolien, Bain, Chiad, Dailin


Remember Taringail Damodred?


Tigraine remained married to him, when Rand was born. Through Rand’s father was Janduin, clan chief of the Taardad Aiel—not Taringail Damodred. (LoC, Chapter 16)
Taringail Damodred died in a “hunting accident” much later (TSR, Chapters 17 & 19)



Point is Rand’s acclaimed birth mother, violated a verse of the Prophecies of the Dragon known to Elayne Damoodred. How?


She was married to a man: Taringail Damodred.


Taringail Damodred she had wed for political reasons. He had been married to Tigraine, the Daughter-Heir whose disappearance had set off the Succession when Mordrellein died. Marrying him had made a link with the old queen, smoothing the doubts of most of her opponents, and more importantly, had maintained the alliance that had ended the ceaseless wars with Cairhien.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 19 “Memories” – Morgase point of view; her thoughts



So if not Tigraine Mantear…


Who was an unwed Maiden, who gave birth to the Dragon?




I suspect she is the individual soul listed below:


Tales of Materese the Healer, Mother of the Wondrous Ind.”

The Eye of the World, Chapter 4 “The Gleeman” – Rand pov; Thom speaking, Mat, Perrin, Ewin listening

No Father's name is given.
Unlike Tamra's command to all the Accepted (NS book).
To find a child with a Father's name, means that child is not most likely Dragon.

Where do Maidens of the Spear originate from?

Da'Shain Aiel Maidens.

Who is the group closeness to them now in the Westlands?

Tuatha'an females.




Problem number: three



What does the Green Man identify Rand al'Thor as?


Smiling, the Green Man put an arm around the Ogier’s shoulders. Alongside Loial, he looked like a man beside a boy. “There is no honoring, little brother. We will sing Treesongs together, and remember the Great Trees, and the stedding, and hold the Longing at bay.” He studied the others, just now getting down from their horses, and his eyes lit on Perrin. “A Wolfbrother! Do the old times truly walk again then?”

Rand stared at Perrin. For his part, Perrin turned his horse so it was between him and the Green Man, and bent to check the girth. Rand was sure he just wanted to avoid the Green Man’s searching gaze. Suddenly the Green Man spoke to Rand.

“Strange clothes you wear, Child of the Dragon. Has the Wheel turned so far? Do the People of the Dragon return to the First Covenant? But you wear a sword. That is neither now nor then.”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 49 "The Dark One Stirs" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Moiraine, Lan, Mat Cauthon, Perrin, Loial, Nynaeve, Egwene, Green Man/Someshta


Child of the Dragon.
Not Dragon.


Rand al'Thor is not the Dragon Reborn.
Another man is the Dragon.





--------------------------



ToM Foreshadowing for AMoL book



Errors of Monarachs.


"I see him before you!” Paitar said. “Him, the one who lives many lives, the one who gives deaths, the one who raises mountains. He will break what he must break, but first he stands here, before our king. You will bloody him! Measure his restraint. He speaks! How was the fallen slain? Tellindal Tirraso, murdered by his hand, the darkness that came the day after the light. You must ask, and you must know your fate. If he cannot answer…”

He trailed off, falling silent.
“What?” Min asked.

“If he cannot answer,” Paitar said, “then you will be lost. You will bring his end swiftly, so that the final days may have their storm. So that Light may not be consumed by he who was to have preserved it. I see him. And I weep."

“You came to murder him, then,” Cadsuane said.

“To test him,” Tenobia said. “Or so we decided, once Paitar told us of the prophecy.”


Towers of Midnight, Chapter 51 “A Testing” – Cadsuane point of view; with Rand, Min and many many others in scene


They tested the wrong man.


Will the blind man regain his memories in time?
Or shall an unfortunate Dragon be murdered?




--------------------------


Concluding AMoL Foreshadowing Prophecies


Verin blinked, very much as the owl had. “What does it say? It is a direct translation, mind, and reads almost like a bard reciting in High Chant. Listen. ‘Heart of the Dark. Ba’alzamon. Name hidden within name shrouded by name. Secret buried within secret cloaked by secret. Betrayer of Hope. Ishamael betrays all hope. Truth burns and sears. Hope fails before truth. A lie is our shield. Who can stand against the Heart of the Dark? Who can face the Betrayer of Hope? Soul of shadow, Soul of the Shadow, he is—’ ” She stopped with a sigh. “It ends there. What do you make of it?”


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 21 "A World of Dreams" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; Verin speaking


The Plow, The Plowman; The Dragon.


“I hope so,” Rand said slowly. As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men, and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes. The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps, the ravens feed at his voice, and he shall wear a crown of swords. The Prophecies of the Dragon gave little hope for anything except victory over the Dark One, and only a chance of that. The Prophecy of Rhuidean, the Aiel Prophecy, said he would destroy them. The bleakness swept through the clans because of him and ancient customs were ripped apart. Even without the Aes Sedai, small wonder if some chiefs pondered whether they were right to follow Rand al’Thor, Dragons on his arms or no. “I hope so.”


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 18 “As the Plow Breaks the Earth” – Rand point of view; with four Aiel Clan Chiefs, Merana Sedai, Narishma, Forsaken Dashiva.

I have frequently wondered if this section of a line, should be interpreted as two different individuals:

"As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men...."

As in the Plow (Rand al'Thor) breaks the earth shall he (The Dragon) break the lives of men....

If so, Rand al'Thor is not very likely to meet the true Dragon, before breaking the Earth & frying Shadowspawn with Callandor.

"The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps", part of the line, I speculate implies that the Dragon & Mat Cauthon will go to war with Horn of Valere in Illian together. See: 'Prophecy of the Horn'.


"the ravens feed at his voice", part of the line, implies the Dragon is going to attend the marriage ceremony of the Ravens (and Roses). Yes, Mat Cauthon is going to late to his own unique marriage ceremony. ;)



Dragon is like a Plow, but is not a Plow.


And his paths shall be many, and who shall know his name, for he shall be born among us many times, in many guises, as he has been and ever will be, time without end. His coming shall be like the sharp edge of the plow, turning our lives in furrows from out of the places where we live in silence. The breaker of bonds; the forger of chains. The maker of futures; the unshaper of destiny.


—from Commentaries on the Prophecies of the Dragon,
by Jurith Dorine,
Right Hand to the Queen of Almoren,
742 AB, the Third Age



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Did Tel Janin Aellinsar miss all important the meeting memo?



Memo to peons,


WHO NEEDS EYES TO WORK?
NEVERMIND, DON'T ANSWER....
TRY AGAIN HARDER THIS TIME.
FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS:

SPIT ONLY WHERE COMMANDED!
SPIT ONLY WHEN COMMANDED!
SPIT ONLY HOW COMMANDED!


FYI: This message will self-destruct upon implanting.


Stamped,
--Extraordinary Shadow Thought Minister of the Seven Dark Burning Moon Cycles,
Ninth Black Cow Hoof Insight of the Neverlost Hitched Dagger,
at Owata Crypt of the Kneeling Foredoomed Bloody Virex Zero.

His Hand reaches far... ha, ha! Humor me! :p


A joke?

Zombie Sammael
07-06-2011, 12:12 PM
So you're saying Sammael's phallus is the real Dragon?

...that's kind of a compliment.

FelixPax
07-06-2011, 12:13 PM
A path "plowed" in Seanchan


Not something he wanted to encounter, but there was always the chance the . . . fliers . . . might take the plowed furrow he was leaving now as the track of some animal.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 32 “A Short Spear”-- Rand point of view


The Plow’s Mule has visited Seanchan before Rand al’Thor ever did.

Whomever is the Dragon, visited Seanchan continent via a Sea Folk ship before Rand al'Thor followed Aviendha to Seanchan.

The one time Windfinder to the Mistress of Ships, Renaile din Calon Blue Star did confirm Coine's prior tale:

Renaile strode up with the Bowl in her arms, once more swathed in its white covering. “Some of our ships have encountered these Seanchan. If they are in Ebou Dar, then the ships beat to sea. My ship fights for his life, and I am not on his deck! We go now!” And she formed the weave for a gateway, right there.


The Path of Daggers, Chapter 5 "The Breaking Storm" -- Elayne point of view; with many many other individuals


“Wavedancer encountered a Seanchan ship last year,” Coine replied. “They wished to take him, but I did not wish to give him up.”

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 19 "Wavedancer" -- Elayne point of view; with Nynaeve, Coine, Jorin

Separately Caire din Gelyn Running Wave channeled weaves spanning the whole globe in size. She can visual both the weaves & the space it is woven in. Meaning she has likely sailed around the circumference of the world, including Seanchan continent--the southern route.


“I just moved the rudder on a skimmer with a beam as broad as the world!--Caire din Gelyn Running Wave

The Path of Daggers, Chapter 5 "The Breaking Storm"--Elayne pov



Who has been subject to the pull and push of the Dragon's ta'veren effect, via a "Plow Metaphor"?



Mat Cauthon – The Dragon Reborn Ch.40 “A Hero in the Night” (Mat pov)
Shadowhounds – The Dragon Reborn Ch. 43 “Shadowbrothers” (Perrin pov)
Perrin – The Shadow Rising, Ch. 29 “Homecoming” (Perrin pov)
Lord of Chaos, Ch. 53 “The Feast of Lights” (Perrin pov)
The Path of Daggers, Ch. 9 “Tangles” (Perrin pov)
Winter’s Heart, Ch. 2 “Taken” (Perrin pov)
Crossroads of Twilight, Ch.8 “Whirlpools of Color” (Perrin pov)
Crossroad of Twilight, CH. 12 “A Manufactory” (Perrin pov)
Two Rivers Wolf Guard (What becomes) – Ch. 33 “A New Weave in the Pattern” (Perrin pov)
2nd Camp in Cairhien – The Fires of Heaven – Ch. 41 “The Craft of Kin Tovere” (Rand pov)
Mysterious Aiel Plow group who saved Mat Cauthon – The Fires of Heaven – Ch. 44 “The Lesser Sadness” – (Mat pov)
Nynaeve al’Meara – The Fires of Heaven, Ch. 47 “The Price of a Ship” (Nynaeve pov)
Elayne – A Path of Daggers, Ch. 5 “The Breaking Storm” (Elayne pov)
The Green Man – The Eye of the World, Ch. 50 “Meetings at the Eye” (Rand pov)
Milla, Wisdom of Taren Ferry – Lord of Chaos, Prologue “The First Message” (Faile pov)
Master Finch – The Eye of the World, Ch. 33 “The Dark Waits” (Rand pov)
Farmfolk, in forested hills of Ghealdan – The Dragon Reborn, Ch. 7 “The Way Out of the Mountains” (Perrin pov)
Farmfolk, near Fal Dara – The Eye of the World, Ch. 46 “Fal Dara” (Rand pov)
Former partner of Valan Luca – The Great Hunt, Ch. 21 “The Nine Rings” (Rand pov)
Dagdara Finchey – Lord of Chaos, Ch. 8 “The Storm Gathers” (Nynaeve pov)
Firewood Cart – Lord of Chaos, Ch. 14 “Dreams and Nightmares” (Nynaeve pov)
A Plow on Wheels – Lord of Chaos, Ch.18 “A Taste of Solitude” (Rand pov)
Idrien Tarsin supplying Shop’s New Plows – Lord of Chaos, Ch.50 “Thorns” (Rand pov)
Alviarin is a plow – A Crown of Swords, Prologue “Lightnings” (Elaida pov)
Alise, Kinswoman – The Path of Daggers, Ch. 4 “A Quiet Place” (Elayne pov)
Seonid Sedai – The Path of Daggers, Ch.7 “A Goatpen” (Perrin pov)
Muddy ground & Mountainside – The Path of Daggers Ch. 23 “Fog of War, Storm of Battle” (Rand pov)
Tairens & Cairhiens with Anaiyella, Ailil – The Path of Daggers, Ch. 23 “Fog of War, Storm of Battle” (Rand pov)
Andoran Nobles loyal to Elayne – Crossroads of Twilight, Ch. 17 “A Bronze Bear” – (Elayne pov)
Luan, Andoran High Noble – Crossroads of Twilight, Ch.35 “The Importance of Dyelin” (Elayne pov)
Toveine Sedai’s horse Sparrow – The Path of Daggers, Ch. 26 “The Extra Bit” (Toveine pov)
Three riders & horses: Parelean, Arrela and Lacile – The Path of Daggers, Ch.30 “Beginnings” (Faile pov)
Demandred – Winter’s Heart, Ch. 35 “With the Choedan Kal” (Demandred pov)
Plowshares in the Rhannon Hills, Altara – Crossroads of Twilight, Ch.1 “Time to Be Gone” (Omni pov)
****Keilar, with parallels for Mat Cauthon – Crossroads of Twilight, Ch.11 “A Hell in Maderin” (Mat pov)
Algarin & his farm – Crossroads of Twilight, Ch. 23 “Ornaments” (Cadsuane pov)
Tam al’Thor – The Eye of the World, Ch. 5 “Winternight” (Rand pov)
Rand al’Thor – The Eye of the World, Ch. 5 “Winternight” (Rand pov)
The Shadow Rising, Ch. 9 “Decisions” (Rand pov)
The Shadow Rising Ch. 21 “Into the Heart” (Rand pov)
The Shadow Rising Ch. 26 “The Dedicated” (Coumin pov AND Rand pov)
The Fires of Heaven, Ch. 32 “A Short Spear” (Rand pov)

FelixPax
07-06-2011, 12:25 PM
So you're saying Sammael's phallus is the real Dragon?

...that's kind of a compliment.

Chuckles, Sammael's likely jealous of L.T.T. winning a woman as prize--in a dagger duel in the 2nd Age. Hence, the scar on his cheek, similar to Ebou Dar scars on individual's cheeks. (Example: Saerin Asnobar)


Sammael's a bit prim all told. He's not into Graendal's current type of of entertainment. Call it a ta'veren effected dislike.


Sammael's phallus ain't in the same league as Dragonmount. Yet even a cross-eyed drunk trolloc could spit on it. More like puke on it. ;)




A serious hint: Gara symbolism.

Names including 'Gara' root
Negara
Togara
Garam

kabkaba
07-06-2011, 01:38 PM
'slope' and 'slopes'!!!
You really hit a high there.

FelixPax
07-06-2011, 10:35 PM
'slope' and 'slopes'!!!
You really hit a high there.

Not sure how to interpret your comments... frown.


I take it, you'd have preferred a more compact non-quotation based thread posting?



Sammael's thoughts claim L.T.T. left no grave.
Morgase's thoughts claim Tigraine was married to a man.
Green Man claimed Rand al'Thor was a 'Child of the Dragon'.


Each claim violates prophecies regarding the known identity of the Dragon.


Case Point is Rand al'Thor is not the true Dragon. Rand al'Thor is a false Dragon.


Implication is Rand al'Thor shall lose his remaining hand.
Thus, consistent with one shared Dream of Nynaeve & Elayne's in Tar Valon, set in the future.

Zombie Sammael
07-07-2011, 04:23 AM
Okay Felix I'll bite (instead of just trolling you like usual). How would Sammael, being bound at the time when LTT died, know whether LTT left a grave or not? Your entire theory seems to hinge on the idea that he would, since it's his comments that (apparently) lead to this conclusion. Given that it apparently isn't common knowledge that Dragonmount is where LTT died, how is Sammael supposed to know?

The Unreasoner
07-07-2011, 05:30 AM
Okay Felix I'll bite (instead of just trolling you like usual). How would Sammael, being bound at the time when LTT died, know whether LTT left a grave or not? Your entire theory seems to hinge on the idea that he would, since it's his comments that (apparently) lead to this conclusion. Given that it apparently isn't common knowledge that Dragonmount is where LTT died, how is Sammael supposed to know?

lol. i love felix's theories, but i can only follow them while i'm on my meds for add and epilepsy. otherwise it just looks like a mess. i gotta thank you for a concise and coherent response to give my curiosity a hint as to wtf this is.

GonzoTheGreat
07-07-2011, 06:49 AM
Okay Felix I'll bite (instead of just trolling you like usual). How would Sammael, being bound at the time when LTT died, know whether LTT left a grave or not? Your entire theory seems to hinge on the idea that he would, since it's his comments that (apparently) lead to this conclusion. Given that it apparently isn't common knowledge that Dragonmount is where LTT died, how is Sammael supposed to know?RAFO:
Moiraine had paused for him, but now her unchanging voice cut him off, soft and relentless. "The Karaethon Cycle, the Prophecies of the Dragon, says that the Dragon will be reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount, where he died during the Breaking of the World. Gitara Sedai had the Foretelling sometimes. She was old, her hair as white as the snow outside, but when she had the Foretelling, it was strong. The morning light through the windows was strengthening as I handed her a cup of tea. The Amyrlin Seat asked me what news there was from the field of battle. And Gitara Sedai started up out of her chair, her arms and legs rigid, trembling, her face as if she looked into the Pit of Doom at Shayol Ghul, and she cried out, 'He is born again! I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!' And she fell forward into my arms, dead."So it was actually a bit better known than you assume.

Actually, the reason why it is called Dragonmount is because the thing was made by the Dragon when he died. I don't see any indication that this is not well known across Randland.

kabkaba
07-07-2011, 09:26 AM
Sammael's thoughts claim L.T.T. left no grave.
Morgase's thoughts claim Tigraine was married to a man.
Green Man claimed Rand al'Thor was a 'Child of the Dragon'.



The first means that if Sammael is correct LTT was not the dragon, does not speak about Rand being or not being the dragon at all.

Second may simply be fulfilled by assuming Tigraine left her former married life when she took the Maiden oath and became Shaiel.

The third clearly meant Green Man was referring to Rand looking like an Aiel (who are people/children of the dragon) and that's why he says having a sword is neither now nor then. The Aiel actually left or did not join the first covenant and he wonders if they are coming back.

But then your line of reasoning is never what is simple. I understand you have many theories saved somewhere, are there any in which Rand is the Dragon and Luca is nobody.

Zombie Sammael
07-07-2011, 09:37 AM
RAFO:
So it was actually a bit better known than you assume.

Actually, the reason why it is called Dragonmount is because the thing was made by the Dragon when he died. I don't see any indication that this is not well known across Randland.

Even given that, why would Sammael:


Know that Dragonmount was where he died, having only just awoken;
Think of Dragonmount as a "grave" per se, given it's a huge volcanic mountain, not a burial marker for a single individual?

FelixPax
07-08-2011, 05:21 AM
Second may simply be fulfilled by assuming Tigraine left her former married life when she took the Maiden oath and became Shaiel.

False. Tenses matter in Prophecy.


Tigraine wedded or married Taringail Damodred.


Tigraine (tee-GRAIN):

As Daughter-heir of Andor, she married Taringail Damodred and bore his son Galadedrid. Her disappearance in 972 NE, shortly after her brother Luc vanished in the Blight, led to the struggle in Andor called the Succession, and caused the events in Cairhien which eventually brought on the Aiel War. Her sign was a woman’s hand gripping a thorny rose-stem with a white blossom.


The Eye of the World, Glossary


Notice the tense used in the Dragon Cycle prophecy is past tense, "wedded".


Elayne nodded. “I think so. I do not know much of the Prophecies of the Dragon, but I have heard a few lines. One I remember is,‘On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born, born of a maiden wedded to no man.’


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 39 "Threads in the Pattern" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with Elayne, Nynaeve, Aviendha, Jolien, Bain, Chiad, Dailin


Case Point is Tigraine married Taringail Damodred. Tigraine gave a vow. This very marriage contract automatically determines that Rand al'Thor is not the Dragon.


Neither is Perrin nor Mat Cauthon the Dragon, as each of their mothers' married their fathers'.



Conclusion:


None of the three widely known Ta'veren young men is the Dragon. Someone else entirely is the Dragon. :D:D:D







Follow-up question:



Who is the Dragon?



Prophecy demands, what prim societies might call an 'illegitimate child'.
Prophecy demands, what the Tuantha'an might call a 'Love Child'.
The Dragon is unlike 'natural people'; The Dragon is an 'unnatural person'; The Dragon is a 'bastard'; The Dragon is 'immortal soul'.


That bastard the dragon...


“You know the prophecies! When the Dragon is reborn, your worst nightmares will seem like your fondest dreams!”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 3 "Peddler" -- Rand pov, Mysterious Two River person speaking


And how do we escape the dreams?

The Eye of the World, Chapter 26---Rand al'Thor pov

Heinz
07-08-2011, 09:03 AM
You focus on one word, 'wedded', while forgetting the importance of other words, the one immediately before it actually.

"...born of a maiden wedded to no man..."

Shaiel the MAIDEN was wedded to no man.

In my opinion, in this and other theories you've brought up, you have a tendancy to focus too much on a particular word or tense of a word. These things can be important, but one must use the rest of the context to grasp the full meaning. In some cases, slicing things up too much and viewing them in the abstract or void creates more meaning than was meant to be in the first place. The media sometimes grasping a particular phrase or quote from a speech to sensationalize a comment which otherwise had dull meaning is a classic example of this.

Also, in regards to the Green Man calling Rand 'Child of the Dragon'. I agree with the interpretation that the Green Man was merely commenting on Rand's outward appearance, not his inner soul. Rand appears Aiel. The Green Man named him 'Child of the Dragon' as a result.

There is no indication that the Green Man was doing what Artur Hawkwing would do later in The Great Hunt, and speak to Rand's soul rather than Rand himself. (Unfortunately, I do not have an exact quote handy. It is in the scene of The Great Hunt, as the Heroes appear after Mat blows the Horn of Valere.) Birgitte Silverbow also verbally recognizes Lews Therin in Rand, by the way, and other Heroes do as well in their body language (chuckles at Birgitte's comment about Lews Therin and trouble with women, following Lews Therin's orders to attack the Seanchan behind the Dragon Banner, etc).

The Green Man's next comment that Rand's sword is 'neither now nor then' reinforces this. LTT used swords.

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 55

Be'lal, to Rand: Do you remember when we took that tame sport called swords and learned to kill with it...


Between the Green Man not once speaking to anyone but the person in front of them (physical appearance), and Artur Hawkwing as a Hero speaking to Lews Therin the soul rather than Rand al'Thor the 3rd Age boy, I do not believe there is any controversy. That conversation with Artur Hawkwing and the subsequent events with the Heroes, in fact, shoots any possibility of anyone but Rand being the Dragon Reborn. And that does not even begin to address prophesies such as 'Twice and twice shall he be marked...' or the taking of the Stone of Tear and Callandor.

Lews Therin was the Dragon in the Age of Legends.

Rand al'Thor has the soul of Lews Therin

Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn.

GonzoTheGreat
07-08-2011, 09:45 AM
You focus on one word, 'wedded', while forgetting the importance of other words, the one immediately before it actually.

"...born of a maiden wedded to no man..."

Shaiel the MAIDEN was wedded to no man.I dunno. Taringail was still alive, and I doubt they ever got officially divorced.

The Unreasoner
07-08-2011, 10:02 AM
I think I found the problem, Heinz.
You're taking it too seriously.

David Selig
07-08-2011, 10:31 AM
Obviously Taringail was actually Lanfear in disguise, thus Tigraine wasn't wedded to a man. Problem solved.

GonzoTheGreat
07-08-2011, 10:41 AM
Obviously Taringail was actually Lanfear in disguise, thus Tigraine wasn't wedded to a man. Problem solved.I don't think there is any actual evidence in the books saying explicitly that gay marriage is prohibited in Andor.

Zombie Sammael
07-08-2011, 10:42 AM
I don't think there is any actual evidence in the books saying explicitly that gay marriage is prohibited in Andor.

Still wouldn't make Lanfear a man, though, would it. Unless you're suggesting she went through with the surgery.

Heinz
07-08-2011, 11:01 AM
I think I found the problem, Heinz.
You're taking it too seriously.

I've never been able to determine whether Felix is serious in his theories, or is laughing off his rocker at some of the waves he causes. I asked once and never got a response.

nameless
07-08-2011, 11:58 AM
It's just a play on words. "Maiden" means "unwed woman." Tigraine was a Maiden by virtue of joining Far Dareis Mai, even if she wasn't technically a maiden at the time.

Zombie Sammael
07-08-2011, 01:00 PM
It's just a play on words. "Maiden" means "unwed woman." Tigraine was a Maiden by virtue of joining Far Dareis Mai, even if she wasn't technically a maiden at the time.

It's the "wedded to no man" which Felix is jumping off of like a fool on the edge of a cliff.

The Unreasoner
07-08-2011, 01:02 PM
I've never been able to determine whether Felix is serious in his theories, or is laughing off his rocker at some of the waves he causes. I asked once and never got a response.

lol. I used to question my own sanity when reading Felix. Some of his posts are incredibly clear, coherent, to the point. for the rest...

you can either take the books seriously and felix with a grain of salt, or you can take felix seriously and the books with a grain of salt and a bottle of gin

nameless
07-08-2011, 04:46 PM
Right, but "wedded to no man" is a Vulgar Tongue translation of an Old Tongue phrase that probably means "maiden." We know that Old Tongue is full of polysemi, so it doesn't seem reasonable to rigidly hold to a monolithic translation. Plus, pretty much the exact same thing happened tranlating real-world messianic prophecies from Hebrew to Greek.

Jonai
07-09-2011, 03:10 AM
Well, Morgase and Taringail were already married by the time Rand came along. I dunno if you can consider that an annulment of the previous marriage, but I think queens can do whatever they want. ;)

Zombie Sammael
07-09-2011, 04:22 AM
Right, but "wedded to no man" is a Vulgar Tongue translation of an Old Tongue phrase that probably means "maiden." We know that Old Tongue is full of polysemi, so it doesn't seem reasonable to rigidly hold to a monolithic translation. Plus, pretty much the exact same thing happened tranlating real-world messianic prophecies from Hebrew to Greek.

Felix is also (perhaps deliberately) confusing "wedded to no man" (present tense) with "having never been wedded" (past tense). The prophecy just means Tigraine wasn't married at the time she had Rand, not that she had never been married, and as Jonai pointed out, Taringail's marriage to Morgase would seem to annul Tigraine's earlier marriage to him.

GonzoTheGreat
07-09-2011, 05:03 AM
The prophecy just means Tigraine wasn't married at the time she had Rand, not that she had never been married, and as Jonai pointed out, Taringail's marriage to Morgase would seem to annul Tigraine's earlier marriage to him.Of course, "would seem to" is a lawyer's dream. I'm quite sure that when they find out about it, some Cairhienin will try to use this to contest Elayne's legitimacy regarding the Sun Throne, as she was only a bastard, making Galad the only Damodred heir (apart from Moiraine, and ..).

Jonai
07-09-2011, 05:16 AM
Of course, "would seem to" is a lawyer's dream. I'm quite sure that when they find out about it, some Cairhienin will try to use this to contest Elayne's legitimacy regarding the Sun Throne, as she was only a bastard, making Galad the only Damodred heir (apart from Moiraine, and ..).

Woohoo, I always knew Elayne was a bastard in several senses of the word.

Zombie Sammael
07-09-2011, 05:58 AM
Of course, "would seem to" is a lawyer's dream. I'm quite sure that when they find out about it, some Cairhienin will try to use this to contest Elayne's legitimacy regarding the Sun Throne, as she was only a bastard, making Galad the only Damodred heir (apart from Moiraine, and ..).

It seems to depend on the vagaries of Andoran marriage laws, and oddly enough, I can't really see Brandon devoting much space in the last book to that.

On the other hand, if Galad is the heir to the Sun Throne of Cairhien, there's a nice bit of symmetry there with the leader of the Children of the Light and the land whose sigil is the sun. Perhaps Cairhien becomes a Fourth Age Amadicia?

FelixPax
07-09-2011, 06:44 AM
The prophecy just means Tigraine wasn't married at the time she had Rand, not that she had never been married, and as Jonai pointed out, Taringail's marriage to Morgase would seem to annul Tigraine's earlier marriage to him.


Tigraine was 'declared dead'.
Tigraine marriage was not legally dissolved, nor annulled.
Tigraine remained legally married to Taringail, when Rand al'Thor was born.



Recollect Taringail needed to remain in the eyes of the Andoran public, a widow of Tigraine. Otherwise, he'd have lost a degree of influence and power, with the other Andoran nobles. Morgase married Taringail because he was a link to the prior daughter-heir of Andor & her son Gawyn.

Andor, Cairhien saw both marriages of Taringail, as a type of guarantee for peace between their two States. Annulling either marriage, is a kin to breaking a peace treaty.

David Selig
07-09-2011, 07:02 AM
Yes, Tigraine was declared dead, see the Glossary of TEOTW. I'd say though that's a pretty good reason for her marriage to Taringail not being legally binding anymore. ;)

But who knows whether prophesies care for legal technicalities...

Zombie Sammael
07-09-2011, 07:48 AM
Yes, Tigraine was declared dead, see the Glossary of TEOTW. I'd say though that's a pretty good reason for her marriage to Taringail not being legally binding anymore. ;)

But who knows whether prophesies care for legal technicalities...

She was not at the time specified in the prophecy, when she gave birth to Rand, wedded to any man, legal technicalities or otherwise. I'd say if a prophecy is using a purely legal construction such as "wedded" then it does care for legal technicalities.

greatwolf
07-09-2011, 10:35 AM
She was not at the time specified in the prophecy, when she gave birth to Rand, wedded to any man, legal technicalities or otherwise. I'd say if a prophecy is using a purely legal construction such as "wedded" then it does care for legal technicalities.


Oh, and what would be the legal definition of "maiden?" In some parts, a maiden is a woman that has never known a man. Therefore she cannot have babies. I known RJ played on this intentionally, but I've never understood why.

For Felix - Thanks for the laughs. I'm getting to love your theories. Oh boy!

Zombie Sammael
07-09-2011, 10:42 AM
Oh, and what would be the legal definition of "maiden?" In some parts, a maiden is a woman that has never known a man. Therefore she cannot have babies. I known RJ played on this intentionally, but I've never understood why.

For Felix - Thanks for the laughs. I'm getting to love your theories. Oh boy!

Maiden isn't a term that has any specific application in law outside its ordinary English meaning, as far as I'm aware. But obviously in the context of the prophecy as a maiden of the spear who cannot be considered to be married at the time of fulfillment, Tigraine does fit the bill.

The Unreasoner
07-09-2011, 01:54 PM
This is a constant problem with words. In the original Gospels, Mary was described with a word that means simply "young woman". The virgin bit was conceived in translation.

GonzoTheGreat
07-10-2011, 04:09 AM
The virgin bit was conceived in translation.Nice one, this. :D Have rep.

The Unreasoner
07-10-2011, 12:46 PM
Many thanks. We catholic mathematicians like to know where the potential holes are lol.

Juan
07-10-2011, 01:37 PM
Wow.........

The Unreasoner
07-10-2011, 03:59 PM
Holes in logic, Juan. Just logic lol. Any play on words was contained within the other post.

greatwolf
07-10-2011, 04:56 PM
Maiden isn't a term that has any specific application in law outside its ordinary English meaning, as far as I'm aware. But obviously in the context of the prophecy as a maiden of the spear who cannot be considered to be married at the time of fulfillment, Tigraine does fit the bill.


The ordinary meaning is the definition that matters. "Maiden" to an aiel would refer to a maiden of the spear. She is known to be wedded to her spears unless she gives them up for a man. Since Rand is aiel, then this is the meaning that would apply to this prophecy otherwise maiden would mean a lady of virtue - virgin.

The Unreasoner
07-10-2011, 05:20 PM
I'm not sure it's a one to one mapping of English to new tongue. Maiden may mean virgin, or unwed woman, or wedded to the spear. Or almost anything.

Zombie Sammael
07-10-2011, 05:38 PM
I'm not sure it's a one to one mapping of English to new tongue. Maiden may mean virgin, or unwed woman, or wedded to the spear. Or almost anything.

According to RJ it was, apparently. Can't find the direct quote, but someone was saying in the question thread that RJ said the new tongue actually was English. :eek: