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The Unreasoner
07-07-2011, 07:24 AM
neurotopia's prologue thread got me thinking:
What would really piss you off in A Memory of Light? a certain character not being acknowledged, a character having a certain storyline, one person dying, another living?

I will be seriously ticked if Logain doesn't get a pov, if Tuon conquers the whole world, if the sea folk play no larger role.

I am reminded of a post i saw back in my lurker days...
To paraphrase, "If it turns out Rand has been spending the whole month working through the kama sutra with min I'm going to be somewhere north of pissed"

yks 6nnetu hing
07-07-2011, 07:32 AM
the only thing that I can think of would be if the book wouldn't be published at all. The rest are just little annoyances.

Rand al'Fain
07-07-2011, 08:08 AM
1. ANY of the main characters dying (this includes Faile (suck it haters) and, surprise surprise, Eggy).
2. The Seanchan still having slavery.
3. The whole "I win again Lews Therin" BS.
4. All the other characters are dumbed down just so Eggy can be a "shining star."
5. No epilogue.
6. Rand and Galad NOT meeting again (the whole brothers thing).
7. Eggy NOT getting told off by an old friend/acquaintance.
8. No Logain POV.
9. Running out of ideas for this thread.
10. Finding out what happens with Rands kids in the future.

David Selig
07-07-2011, 08:12 AM
If we see yet another "a woman gets captured and needs saving" plotline I'd be pissed off. It would be what, the 20th time or so in the series? Jordan really abused this plot device.

Lupusdeusest
07-07-2011, 09:18 AM
If we see yet another "a woman gets captured and needs saving" plotline I'd be pissed off. It would be what, the 20th time or so in the series? Jordan really abused this plot device.

-claps-

Not seeing an argument between Sori and Caddy.
Hanlon not being killed.
No Fain scenes (I think I am safe on this one!)
The Amyrlin's Palace Elaida was building not being put to good use. We haven't heard about it for so long!

I'd be minorly pissed if we didn't see a "turning" ceremony.

jana
07-07-2011, 09:24 AM
Tuon continuing to be Suroth

Zombie Sammael
07-07-2011, 09:24 AM
The Amyrlin's Palace Elaida was building not being put to good use. We haven't heard about it for so long!

I thought Egwene had it torn down or turned into a hospital or something?

Lupusdeusest
07-07-2011, 09:32 AM
I thought Egwene had it torn down or turned into a hospital or something?

Daaww mann! I missed that. It would have made an excellent Black Tower. If that makes sense.
(Makes me fear for the future of the white Tower building now!)

Zombie Sammael
07-07-2011, 09:48 AM
Daaww mann! I missed that. It would have made an excellent Black Tower. If that makes sense.
(Makes me fear for the future of the white Tower building now!)

I could be wrong, as I keep saying it's been a while, I may be misremembering, but I'm sure Egwene did something with it once she assumed the throne.

GonzoTheGreat
07-07-2011, 10:14 AM
I could be wrong, as I keep saying it's been a while, I may be misremembering, but I'm sure Egwene did something with it once she assumed the throne.I think that she contemplated what she was to do with it. I don't think she has gotten around to doing more with it, yet.

Zombie Sammael
07-07-2011, 10:41 AM
I think that she contemplated what she was to do with it. I don't think she has gotten around to doing more with it, yet.

Ah, okay. Maybe that's right. I know she had at least thought about it. This re-read is going so painfully slowly, AMOL will be out by the time I'm done.

Maybe Elaida's palace is actually in some non-specified manner key to the whole "defeat the Dark One" project?

Heinz
07-07-2011, 02:06 PM
Of course! The palace will turn into a physical location for the prison (stable) which will house the Dark One (Bela). What better place, than next to the White Tower?

Zombie Sammael
07-07-2011, 02:10 PM
Joking aside, you know what would be a good use for it? One of Rand's schools. The White Tower in the fourth age should be a worldwide centre of knowledge, power, and excellence. What better usage for a folly that nearly destroyed the Tower than as something which will only increase the awe and wonder of the Aes Sedai? The Aes Sedai must learn once more to live as part of the world, not apart from it, and having knowledge and discoveries not made by the Aes Sedai on their doorstep will be a constant reminder of this. And of course, the AS would have first refusal on many of these wonderful discoveries - the collaboration between students of the Power and students of the school could produce even greater wonders than both alone could.

Heinz
07-07-2011, 02:22 PM
The future fate/fortune of the schools and their impact is actually one of the small details I will regret not seeing, without any kind of outrigger novels.

But I agree. Adding another school in the White Tower, and having it begin co-operation of the Aes Sedai with the world around them in the form of teaching and/or research with non-channelers would be an interesting use of the construction.

the_collective
07-07-2011, 07:11 PM
This re-read is going so painfully slowly, AMOL will be out by the time I'm done.

Same here on the reread. I am getting so much more out of it this time. It's been many years since I've reread the whole thing back-to-back, and it's a much more satisfying read this time around. Hopefully the same is true for you (and anyone else doing a reread).

Maybe Elaida's palace is actually in some non-specified manner key to the whole "defeat the Dark One" project?

Given how much RJ seemed to like irony (it's bloody everywhere in this series), this would not at all be outside the realm of possibility. That is, since Elaida has done so much to aid the Shadow (however unwittingly) that it would be ironic for her self-appointed palace to be used in some way to take the Shadow down a few notches. Of course, alternatively, the whole place could still be used by the Shadow much in the same way that Elaida herself was.

For that matter, maybe the Seanchan will capture it and make it into the Palace of the Empress (may she live forever!), keeping the White Tower as a house for marath'damane or maybe a substitute Tower of Ravens for the Bad Blood...

sandoz12
07-08-2011, 01:19 AM
1. ANY of the main characters dying (this includes Faile (suck it haters) and, surprise surprise, Eggy).


I will be pissed of if none of the major characters die.


3. The whole "I win again Lews Therin" BS.


That is my dream ending - would just love it.

Things that would piss me off would be no satisfactory Black Tower conclusion or that the Black Tower conclusion is really rushed.

Linked to that I will be pissed off if there are too many loose ends at the end that haven't been tied up. Or if in tying up all these loose ends the final books feels rushed.

greatwolf
07-08-2011, 01:49 AM
1. Forsaken vs Forsaken match up and yes, a credible outing by one of the forsaken for once. Egwene vs Mesaana failed to satisfy.

2. No aiel ashaman.

3. I think I will be disappointed by Taim no matter how it plays out.

4. The DO is locked away, but chaos continues.

5. If Logain doesn't live up to the hype.

6. Farstrider - what a waste of time.

7. Grady dies and poor Sora marries bela!

8. Cadsuane dies without redeeming the image of AS as a bunch of incompetents.

9. Too much 3rd ager language from 4th agers like "doing the math"

10. That's enough!

FelixPax
07-08-2011, 04:29 AM
the only thing that I can think of would be if the book wouldn't be published at all. The rest are just little annoyances.

Good point.


I just hope Brandon can expresses changes in characters personalities, as they should be. Take Nynaeve's character for example, if she off in even the slightest way, it's going to diminish the whole series. Her memory is a key to the whole story.


Elayne's character was off in ToM book, so much that it read awkwardly and didn't fit emotionally. Brandon really does need to re-read Elayne's scenes in particular to get a better sense of who she is.


It's a series of and about change and changes; the major focus of attention is psychological not spatial in origin.

Screw-up who characters are emotionally, and that creates a cascading series of errors. Perhaps call Brandon's interpretation, a work of 'Fan Fiction' at worst?


Overall, I think do believe there is a tension between RJ's end-point goals and who Brandon Sanderson is as a writer. The two are akin to water & oil, they do not mixed easily.

missbee
07-08-2011, 04:06 PM
1. If Lan dies, he's been set up for it far too much
2. If any whole nation/tribe/clan/large group of people turn to the Way of the Leaf
3. If we don't get a full explanation of at least a couple of Verin's schemes
4. If Tenobia doesn't die whilst killing Bashere
5. If Cadsuanne doesn't learn to be civil, or dies, don't mind which

ChubbyAiel
07-08-2011, 04:33 PM
1. If Lan dies, he's been set up for it far too much
2. If any whole nation/tribe/clan/large group of people turn to the Way of the Leaf
3. If we don't get a full explanation of at least a couple of Verin's schemes
4. If Tenobia doesn't die whilst killing Bashere
5. If Cadsuanne doesn't learn to be civil, or dies, don't mind which

1. Very unlikely, I'd say.
2. Very likely, I'd say. We all hate pacifism on these boards because we like stories of men killing each other with swords and spears, but pacifism has its place in society and I reckon someone who saw some bad shit in Vietnam would respect that.
3. Meh. I hope some things aren't explained, provided there are clues enough, so in a year or so we'll still have something to talk about on these boards.
4. ?? Have to say I was annoyed about Perrin agreeing to this "stewardship of the Two Rivers" nonsense. What if Rand's children claim their right to their land and they turn out to be complete dicks? Then Perrin will have wished he'd done his best for his people, so far as feudalism would allow, i.e. by stopping his whingeing and asking Elayne exactly what she's have done if he's told her to piss off.
5. She already is learning. Is the newly-"fused" Rand/LTT-personality, i.e. Rand with his memories, not already causing her to see she should be more civil, by inspiring respect? And let's not forget that her lack of civility has basically saved the world (unless I'm remembering events wrong).

missbee
07-08-2011, 06:18 PM
1. glad we agree
2. If it happens I'll burn my books in disillusionment, the series has been quite good at keeping things 'real', but en masse pacifisim is a step too far, no matter how much you wish it would work
3. I did say a couple, not all. I'm about half way through a Verin plot line re-read - the woman is a genius
4. this one's just a pet theory of mine, Bashere's aura is dark (he has been in contact with Semirhage), Tenobia had a bloody spear shining in the light hovering over her head, all that forshadowing of Tenobia being displeased with Bashere's somewhat independent attitude, Perrin obviously being lined up for the Broken Crown, you put it all together...
(I've yet to figure how Perrin gets the crown instead of Faile, but I'm workin' on it)
5. I'll agree she is being more civil to Rand. But, being very stubborn myself, I've struggled to understand how Rand (or anyone else) hasn't told her to f' off a long time ago. Although I can see she's smart in a lot of ways, I can also see that she's not smart enough to see that she'd get her way a lot faster if she stopped being a hypocrite.
Min's got it right.

GonzoTheGreat
07-09-2011, 04:00 AM
Rand hasn't told Cadsuane to get lost because he fears that she might do it, and Min told him that he needs the old witch.

Zombie Sammael
07-09-2011, 05:24 AM
Rand hasn't told Cadsuane to get lost because he fears that she might do it, and Min told him that he needs the old witch.

There was that bit where he kinda banished her for a bit.

GonzoTheGreat
07-09-2011, 06:04 AM
There was that bit where he kinda banished her for a bit.Yeah, but then he was totally bonkers. When he got over that he asked her to return.
"You can't hold a man to blame for what he does when he's crazy, can you?" - Mat, in TEOTW

Jonai
07-09-2011, 06:14 AM
Psshaw, Rand wasn't anymore crazy than uh, gonzothegreat. I think I've had enough Sea Folk to last me til the Wheel stops turning, as to what would disappoint me? Oh I don't know maybe if Rand, Mat, and Perrin aren't sitting around a porch and swilling dead horse ale, or aMoL lager in the epilogue.

Crispin's Crispian
07-12-2011, 12:06 PM
Psshaw, Rand wasn't anymore crazy than uh, gonzothegreat. I think I've had enough Sea Folk to last me til the Wheel stops turning, as to what would disappoint me? Oh I don't know maybe if Rand, Mat, and Perrin aren't sitting around a porch and swilling dead horse ale, or aMoL lager in the epilogue.

Apple brandy, of course.

I have a feeling I'm going to be disappointed by some of it, no matter what. There are just way too many plotlines to resolve.

Toss the dice
07-12-2011, 03:26 PM
Apple brandy, of course.

I have a feeling I'm going to be disappointed by some of it, no matter what. There are just way too many plotlines to resolve.

It's all but guaranteed that many things won't be cleared up or resolved.

I expect to finish reading AMoL and be like "Well, none of this was addressed." or "I guess this wasn't resolved." Times 20.

I see it cultivating a breeding ground for theories, for people to debate for years into the future, with no new evidence to back any of them up. Luckily, I don't intend on sticking around.

sleepinghour
07-12-2011, 06:55 PM
It's all but guaranteed that many things won't be cleared up or resolved.

I expect to finish reading AMoL and be like "Well, none of this was addressed." or "I guess this wasn't resolved." Times 20.

I see it cultivating a breeding ground for theories, for people to debate for years into the future, with no new evidence to back any of them up.
Some things (at least the revelations RJ was saving for the outriggers) might appear in the encyclopedia or AMoL glossary. I don't mind minor plot threads being wrapped up that way. It's not a perfect solution, but better than nothing or half a chapter of valuable screentime wasted on things like how Merilille and Talaan fell in love while on the run and decided to take up farming in Murandy. Not all unresolved plot threads are that interesting or important to the story. So, I can deal with certain plot threads not being resolved. I'm more concerned about characters I like (in particular Nynaeve) not getting enough screentime in AMoL.

the_collective
07-12-2011, 07:23 PM
It's really a shame that this series could not be completed by RJ. No offense to BS (who, I am fairly sure would agree with me anyway), but no matter how AMoL turns out, this entire series was built to be taken as a whole. The now-3-book ending that was supposed to tie everything together is now in the hands of a casual fan essentially; one who didn't share the same passion that HCFFs have going into all of this, and certainly not the same base understanding of each and every event in the books that HCFFs have (and they aren't even experts). Anyone with a similar "knowledge" of the series that shows up to comment on this forum could expect to be given short shrift, yet this same guy is telling the rest of the story (with TONS of help from the REAL experts - all 2 or 3 of them - at "Team Jordan").

Now, knowing all of this, I would think that most of you out there reading this are under no illusions about how this is all going to "turn out" with respect to what RJ had originally intended. The ending of this series (once published, of course) is what it is, not what it was meant to be.

You know, the irony of this whole series is that one of the major themes for each and every character in this "world" is taking action without all the information and making the best of it. And here's Brandon, frantically doing the same damn thing just to make you all happy (of course, instant celebrity for his own fantasy career was obviously a factor, but still...). I've been laughing about this for a couple of years and will likely continue into the next Age. Hopefully some of you can appreciate the joke with me.

greatwolf
07-14-2011, 12:19 PM
(of course, instant celebrity for his own fantasy career was obviously a factor, but still...)...


I think we can be fairly certain he doesn't want the reputation of a flop.

There's one thing that would probably make me madder than everything else put together is more "magic". Growing up, I often had a choice of marvel or DC comics. DC comics always lost. Almost always. It got to the point I could hardly stand DC anymore. To see it here and at the climax of it all, would be like taking up vomit - sorry!

Early in the series, a lot of things seemed like magic - we were looking at the world through the eyes of farmboys and everything was new and magical and fit. But over the years, it has grown in scope and detail. And with it, its appeal as a brand on its own. Not magic and not the force and not even lord of the rings. Just WoT.

If it ends and the appeal for more WoTism dies with it, the DO would have won in a sense, whatever the outcome we see in aMoL.

What can I say? All the best to BS. Because all our hopes for the series lie with him. He is the dragon for now and we pray he is the true DR!

the_collective
07-14-2011, 01:19 PM
I think we can be fairly certain he doesn't want the reputation of a flop.

There's one thing that would probably make me madder than everything else put together is more "magic". Growing up, I often had a choice of marvel or DC comics. DC comics always lost. Almost always. It got to the point I could hardly stand DC anymore. To see it here and at the climax of it all, would be like taking up vomit - sorry!

Early in the series, a lot of things seemed like magic - we were looking at the world through the eyes of farmboys and everything was new and magical and fit. But over the years, it has grown in scope and detail. And with it, its appeal as a brand on its own. Not magic and not the force and not even lord of the rings. Just WoT.

If it ends and the appeal for more WoTism dies with it, the DO would have won in a sense, whatever the outcome we see in aMoL.

What can I say? All the best to BS. Because all our hopes for the series lie with him. He is the dragon for now and we pray he is the true DR!

Wow. Where to begin?

I was always a Marvel guy myself, as well (out of the big 2, anyway), but I don't see the connection you've made here between "D.C." and BS using the word "magic" in the WoT series. I can't even guess as to what you'd intended to say with that paragraph.

No matter what happens, I doubt very seriously that BS will single-handedly take the existing flavor of the WoT and pervert or distort it to a degree that makes it unrecognizable or undesirable to readers. I was stating the obvious: that the ending (3? books) we end up with cannot be executed with the same degree of detail and background world-building knowledge that RJ would have employed to write the same ending had he lived to do so. Expecting anything even remotely close to such is really too much to ask, in my opinion. We're just lucky that BS is a better successor than - say - Brian Herbert (and his accomplice Kevin Anderson). Hell, we're lucky to get an ending AT ALL.

greatwolf
07-14-2011, 02:15 PM
Wow. Where to begin?

I was always a Marvel guy myself, as well (out of the big 2, anyway), but I don't see the connection you've made here between "D.C." and BS using the word "magic" in the WoT series. I can't even guess as to what you'd intended to say with that paragraph.


Oh sorry, I was trying to be brief. That part wasn't a critique of your post at all. Thing is with marvel comics, they have super heroes and they always try to explain their powers. Its all fiction, but at least they try, and the effort gurantees a sort of continuity.

DC OTOH, had lots of inconsistencies. Their heroes seemed to have whatever powers they wanted, when they wanted and how they wanted. (well i'm oversimplifying)

Rand has been doing some things in the last couple of books that some call "magic" or superpowers. I have my suspicions were BS might be headed, but at this point I don't think inconsistent, unexplained new powers will be appreciated.

the_collective
07-14-2011, 03:10 PM
Oh sorry, I was trying to be brief. That part wasn't a critique of your post at all. Thing is with marvel comics, they have super heroes and they always try to explain their powers. Its all fiction, but at least they try, and the effort gurantees a sort of continuity.

DC OTOH, had lots of inconsistencies. Their heroes seemed to have whatever powers they wanted, when they wanted and how they wanted. (well i'm oversimplifying)

Rand has been doing some things in the last couple of books that some call "magic" or superpowers. I have my suspicions were BS might be headed, but at this point I don't think inconsistent, unexplained new powers will be appreciated.

Thanks for the clarification, there. It didn't even occur to me that perhaps the origin of Rand's new-found abilities/power might be the result of some inventiveness on BS's part. I am going to assume this is not the case until someone (like Maria, for instance) with more knowledge from Team Jordan speaks up in the tabloids about how BS conspired to make Rand way more badass than he should be (though I don't see how this could be possible, but I digress) while making Cadsuane (who BS has little love for) into a useless shrew.

Zombie Sammael
07-14-2011, 03:13 PM
Rand has been doing some things in the last couple of books that some call "magic" or superpowers. I have my suspicions were BS might be headed, but at this point I don't think inconsistent, unexplained new powers will be appreciated.

Most of the "new" things Rand has been seen doing in TGS and TOM are entirely explicable, consistent, and have precedent.

1. Channeling the True Power - there are numerous theories explaining this, the most popular probably being the link to Moridin, created by their Balefire crossing the streams.

2. Seeing Darkfriends by loking into their eyes - Rand has been doing this since Kadere in TSR. Additionally there's a strong running theme in the series which associates the eyes with Light; Mat giving up half the light of the world by giving up an eye, for example, and the Saa, the visible sign of the power of darkness, obscuring the eyes for another.

3. Sensing the proximity of people - LTT does this in the prologue to TEOTW.

I'm not sure what other super-powers Rand has suddenly developed you might be talking about, but if you read the books closely enough I'm sure you'll find precedent for all of them.

The Unreasoner
07-14-2011, 04:04 PM
while making Cadsuane (who BS has little love for) into a useless shrew.

I wondered why a character who had been one of my favorites had morphed into an unlikable and incompetent caricature.

Crispin's Crispian
07-14-2011, 04:11 PM
Most of the "new" things Rand has been seen doing in TGS and TOM are entirely explicable, consistent, and have precedent.

1. Channeling the True Power - there are numerous theories explaining this, the most popular probably being the link to Moridin, created by their Balefire crossing the streams.

2. Seeing Darkfriends by loking into their eyes - Rand has been doing this since Kadere in TSR. Additionally there's a strong running theme in the series which associates the eyes with Light; Mat giving up half the light of the world by giving up an eye, for example, and the Saa, the visible sign of the power of darkness, obscuring the eyes for another.

3. Sensing the proximity of people - LTT does this in the prologue to TEOTW.

I'm not sure what other super-powers Rand has suddenly developed you might be talking about, but if you read the books closely enough I'm sure you'll find precedent for all of them.
Well, his astonishing power display at Maradon comes to mind. It was far and away more impressive than the trolloc attack at the hunting lodge. But again, I think it's explainable by the Lews Therin integration.

Res_Ipsa
07-14-2011, 04:18 PM
I have never minded Cadsuane (past or present). She simply represents a view that while others might disagree with is executed in an evenhanded manner. She displays no avarice nor cruelty in her judgements and is as fair as one can be and still be AS. In short she is Nynaeve not guided by her emotions and grown into a woman.


As to the ending a deus ex machina would piss me off less than a mass hippie pacifism jam event. I doubt that is the case, RJ is not middle of the road so provided he laid down enough notes and/or wrote enough then there will be a strong ending either way. Now BS might go down the middle as he has demonstrated thus far. I love the Mistborn trilogy but the ending was kind of "meh" as in be anything and everything to anybody.

the_collective
07-14-2011, 04:29 PM
I wondered why a character who had been one of my favorites had morphed into an unlikable and incompetent caricature.

I mourn the loss of a good character here, as well. As much as BS may want to (and I believe he truly does want to), none of us can keep our own bias completely out of the subjects in which such bias exists. It just can't be done - well, unless one mentally eradicates the bias in the first place, of course, but I digress (again).

greatwolf
07-14-2011, 05:59 PM
Most of the "new" things Rand has been seen doing in TGS and TOM are entirely explicable, consistent, and have precedent.


Hmm, here we go.

1. Channeling the True Power - there are numerous theories explaining this,

Of course, channeling the TP was expected. What I have suspicions about is the amount of it that Rand can access. He compares what is available to the CK. Can he hold so much?

I think it is possible from some things that RJ said in quotes (i don't remember which) yet I find it odd that Moridin seems bothered about a the aiel forming a circle in aCoS. If he had access to that much, why the worry?

The watcher smiled crookedly behind his fancloth skulker's mask. Nae’blis. That explained what had brought Graendal to heel, what had stayed her from killing Sammael. Even she would be blinded by that. An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. Unless, of course, it was true. The Great Lord delighted in setting his servants one against another, to see who was stronger. Only the strongest could stand near his glory. But today's truth need not be tomorrow's. The watcher had seen truth change a hundred times between a single sunrise and sunset. More than once he had changed it himself. He considered going back and killing the seven women in the clearing. They would die easily; he doubted they knew how to form a true circle. The black flecks filled his eyes, a horizontal blizzard. No, he would let that run its course. For now.



I'm not sure what other super-powers Rand has suddenly developed you might be talking about, but if you read the books closely enough I'm sure you'll find precedent for all of them

Crispy mentioned the Maradon thing. It was a bit "off". At the manor, there were specific weaves that the ashaman could copy and join in. This was merely superman on the loose. You cant join in because you're not superman period!

Toss the dice
07-14-2011, 06:46 PM
I think it is possible from some things that RJ said in quotes (i don't remember which) yet I find it odd that Moridin seems bothered about a the aiel forming a circle in aCoS. If he had access to that much, why the worry?

I found this odd too, for the same reasons. Lews Therin and Ishamael have always supposed to have been essentially tied in strength. The Dragon and Nae'blis, equal powers on opposite sides. The sheer level of strength Rand displayed at Maradon is seemingly MUCH more powerful than anything Moridin has done, at least post-AOL. Has he been holding back all this time? Are Lews Therin and Moridin like 50 times stronger than the next strongest Forsaken?

I assume not. So what Rand did is what? A ta'veren Dragon Reborn thing that was gifted to him as the Last Battle comes? A one-time deal? Logically, something along these lines is far and away the best answer. And while Rand at Maradon was a cool scene, it was pretty stupid in light of the context.

It's funny how every single questionable or head-scratching scene in the WoT has been in TGS and ToM. RJ wrote plenty of "boring" content, but none of it was questionable. Everything was written with a perfect background and setting. I can see some strange things in TGS or ToM being written by RJ and feeling natural due to his superior writing skills, but others are hard to visualize him writing at all. I seriously wouldn't be surprised if Sanderson invented the Rand at Maradon scene. The bastard wanted to be "original," afterall.

I've said it multiple times already, and I'll say it again. While Sanderson's style is obviously different (and worse) than RJ's, that was to be expected and was already forgiven before TGS even came out. My problem with Sanderson is that he writes the "wrong" stuff. He puts in dialogue that clearly doesn't jive, entire events and scenes are either out of whack or shouldn't have been written in the first place. I personally believe it's a combination of his desire to be "original," his lack of WoT knowledge and nuances, and the fact that he just isn't a very good writer. One of the worst choices Team Jordan ever made was deciding that the next author should not try to "imitate" or "clone" RJ's WoT. I could easily deal with that, at least the content would assumably be RIGHT. Mockery my ass.

the_collective
07-14-2011, 07:33 PM
It's funny how every single questionable or head-scratching scene in the WoT has been in TGS and ToM. RJ wrote plenty of "boring" content, but none of it was questionable. Everything was written with a perfect background and setting. I can see some strange things in TGS or ToM being written by RJ and feeling natural due to his superior writing skills, but others are hard to visualize him writing at all. I seriously wouldn't be surprised if Sanderson invented the Rand at Maradon scene. The bastard wanted to be "original," afterall.

I've said it multiple times already, and I'll say it again. While Sanderson's style is obviously different (and worse) than RJ's, that was to be expected and was already forgiven before TGS even came out. My problem with Sanderson is that he writes the "wrong" stuff. He puts in dialogue that clearly doesn't jive, entire events and scenes are either out of whack or shouldn't have been written in the first place. I personally believe it's a combination of his desire to be "original," his lack of WoT knowledge and nuances, and the fact that he just isn't a very good writer. One of the worst choices Team Jordan ever made was deciding that the next author should not try to "imitate" or "clone" RJ's WoT. I could easily deal with that, at least the content would assumably be RIGHT. Mockery my ass.

You're right, of course. I've never read any of BS's own material, so I can't comment on him as a writer, but he certainly doesn't know his WoT the way that so many of us do (and in many cases, that's not even saying much).

I used the Brian Herbert example above deliberately. For those of you that haven't read the Dune series, it was fluffed up and "finished" by the original author's son (including a ton of completely unnecessary prequels and 'outriggers' if you will) and in doing so, completely changed the original 'canon' by adding certain things in said prequels that didn't even exist until the main bulk of the original series. He obviously saw nothing wrong with this, and there wasn't even a Harriet-helper to call 'foul' on anything crazily out-of-whack in his manuscripts. The result is a steaming pile that should be avoided at all costs for anyone that has ever heard good things about the series (cuz none of the good things have anything to do with Brian).

Luckily, we do have Harriet and a few other experts that worked closely with RJ during the last decade of his life to do the refereeing on our current Creator, but even then, RJ didn't write down everything. Far from it, from what we've been told. Despite the millions of words RJ wrote concerning the WoT that will never even see the light of day, there were millions more he never thought to write down because he didn't see a need to at the time. Right up til the very end RJ thought he'd beat the amyloidosis. Sure, he hastily told a few stories that got recorded (and some scraps of memory exist from the moments that were NOT recorded) in his last few months, but all in all, BS has precious little to go on.

RJ was a fairly secretive man it seems to me, when it comes to divulging that which he wanted to "hold close to the vest." The irony being that his grand vision for this story - the very reasons that he started this whole thing and spent the ensuing 20+ years mentally pursuing in the first place - will never be fully realized. NEVER. Sorry if you hadn't figured that out by now, guys. I'm just as sad about it as you all are.

Marie Curie 7
07-14-2011, 10:52 PM
I think that she contemplated what she was to do with it. I don't think she has gotten around to doing more with it, yet.

Yeah, it has not been specified what is to become of the partially-constructed palace that Elaida started:

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 5 - Writings

Below, he could see the new Warder practice grounds. The old ones were dug up where Elaida had begun building her palace. Nobody was sure what Egwene would end up doing with the construction.


Most of the "new" things Rand has been seen doing in TGS and TOM are entirely explicable, consistent, and have precedent.

1. Channeling the True Power - there are numerous theories explaining this, the most popular probably being the link to Moridin, created by their Balefire crossing the streams.

2. Seeing Darkfriends by loking into their eyes - Rand has been doing this since Kadere in TSR. Additionally there's a strong running theme in the series which associates the eyes with Light; Mat giving up half the light of the world by giving up an eye, for example, and the Saa, the visible sign of the power of darkness, obscuring the eyes for another.

3. Sensing the proximity of people - LTT does this in the prologue to TEOTW.

I'm not sure what other super-powers Rand has suddenly developed you might be talking about, but if you read the books closely enough I'm sure you'll find precedent for all of them.

The reason for #2, that Rand was able to "see" Darkfriends such as Weiramon and Anaiyella, has not been confirmed; other theories exist in addition to what you mentioned. For example, the reveal about Weiramon and Anaiyella being Darkfriends may have been in Verin's letter:

JordanCon signing 17 April 2011 - Terez reporting

Scott: In TOM, when Rand confronts Lord Weiramon and Lady Anaiyella, and they basically can't look at him...I was wondering, does he have like an aura of Lightness that's preventing them from looking at him, or was it possibly that Verin clued him in to the fact that they were Darkfriends in her letter?
Brandon: More will be revealed...
Scott: We'll get some more info on that?
Brandon: You'll get some more info on things that were happening in TOM once you see from Rand's perspective in the next book.
Scott: Great! That's great to hear...I can't wait for it. Thank you.



Of course, channeling the TP was expected. What I have suspicions about is the amount of it that Rand can access. He compares what is available to the CK. Can he hold so much?

I think it is possible from some things that RJ said in quotes (i don't remember which) yet I find it odd that Moridin seems bothered about a the aiel forming a circle in aCoS. If he had access to that much, why the worry?

You are misinterpreting the scene where Rand channeled the True Power. It is written somewhat ambiguously, but it's from Rand's point of view, and he just feels like the True Power is comparable to channeling using the Choedan Kal because it's so addictive. It really isn't any more powerful than the One Power. Brandon confirmed this:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders, Washington DC 4 November 2009 - mrc1ark reporting

On the subject of the Choedan Kal, Brandon said that the True Power was not as strong as someone with the Choedan Kal. Just it felt as tempting and as addictive as the One Power through the Choedan Kal.

ChubbyAiel
07-15-2011, 06:54 AM
Personally I really like what Sanderson is doing. I'd like to know how many of the scenes and dialogue you don't like is really his and how much is actually Jordan's. I'd say with the sheer scope of the series and the way that he allowed himself to get bogged down with detail and side-plots even Jordan would have struggled to finish the series and if he was attempting to do so, he would be faced with the same problems that Sanderson is. The very fact that Jordan swore blind that the last three books would fit into one volume is evidence enough that he was struggling to control his own creation!

As for accusations that he doesn't know WoT as well as we do... He's read the series and he has access to Jordan's notes (which is more than us). I think we fans who take the series seriously enough to post about it day in day out are our own worst enemies because we've all got our own theories and visions of how things will work out, and we're so emersed in it that many of us simply won't be happy with the ending, or certain steps on the way to the ending. Some of us will blame Sanderson for that, but I think those same people would have had the same complaints had Jordan lived to finish it. Sanderson is a convenient scapegoat but I think he's doing a great job of injecting a bit of pace after some of the most stagnant books while also bringing about resolution.

Big fan of Mistborn as well.

Toss the dice
07-15-2011, 09:36 AM
I agree that Sanderson is a convenient scapegoat and that RJ couldn't have finished the series in one book.

However, I disagree with everything else.

the_collective
07-15-2011, 12:57 PM
I'd say with the sheer scope of the series and the way that he allowed himself to get bogged down with detail and side-plots even Jordan would have struggled to finish the series and if he was attempting to do so, he would be faced with the same problems that Sanderson is. The very fact that Jordan swore blind that the last three books would fit into one volume is evidence enough that he was struggling to control his own creation!

I agree that it would've taken more than one book no matter how many times Jordan swore otherwise, but I have never seen this as a "problem" except where it has made for an issue with continuity in terms of many different plotlines being handled out of chronological order (and we haven't even seen the end of this juggling act - two words: "Black" "Tower").

I do not agree that Jordan got himself "bogged" down" with plotlines anywhere in the series. To me, there's not a single wasted scene in any of the first 11 books (I'm rereading now and will let you know if I change my mind on this). In many cases even the most seemingly-casual choice (or inclusion) of words on RJ's part is in fact a deliberate choice of symbolism when it's not trying to outright hint at something plot-related. While I agree that the overall scope of the series increased as the books were written over the years, it wasn't completely out of control. In order to be "out of control," major mistakes, inconsistencies and/or oversights would be seen, and thankfully this hasn't been the case.

As for accusations that he doesn't know WoT as well as we do... He's read the series and he has access to Jordan's notes (which is more than us). I think we fans who take the series seriously enough to post about it day in day out are our own worst enemies because we've all got our own theories and visions of how things will work out, and we're so emersed in it that many of us simply won't be happy with the ending, or certain steps on the way to the ending. Some of us will blame Sanderson for that, but I think those same people would have had the same complaints had Jordan lived to finish it. Sanderson is a convenient scapegoat but I think he's doing a great job of injecting a bit of pace after some of the most stagnant books while also bringing about resolution.

You brought up a couple good points here: first, that we, as fans (HCFFs even) that write about WoT everyday have a skewed perspective on our beloved series - in that we argue various minutae and as a result, tend to know a bit more about the details provided than the casual reader. My point about BS, though, was that he is one of those casual readers. He certainly didn't coin the term "Hardcore Fan Freak" because he considers himself one (frankly I think it's fairly derogatory, but to each his/her own). He's been writing his own books since he was a teenager, not pouring over the prologue from A Path of Daggers for the thousandth time to look up a quote to refute something a friend once said. To say the BS knows the WoT inside and out would be a gross error in judgment and I'm quite sure that his self-depricating ass would agree. He's quick to mention that he is not RJ and can't be RJ and has no intention of trying to even replicate RJ, and there is no way that he would claim to have the same knowledge of these books that the so-called "HCFFs" possess, much less RJ himself.

Secondly, you mentioned BS makes a good scapegoat for anything that we end up finding inadequate in the series at this stage in the game. This is obviously true. I don't think that anyone would be able to take up this mantle without being subject to such, no matter how well-executed. As you say, it's likely that even if RJ had finished the whole she-bang, there'd still be dissonant voices raised to protest the outcome of one or more plotlines, etc. I don't think that Sanderson is in any way responsible for the "bit of pace" you mentioned. If you can't see that all this action that we've seen come out of TGS and ToM would have been there with or without Brandon Sanderson because the plot was heading in that direction anyway, there's nothing I can do or say to convince you otherwise.

I realize Chubby that you may not have been directing your comments at me, per se, but I feel obligated to clarify that I've said nothing derogatory about Brandon Sanderson's writing, his style, or his handling of the material (go ahead and look). I'm merely stating that whatever we end up with, it's not gonna be as good as it would have been had RJs original vision been fully realized. That's all.

Crispin's Crispian
07-15-2011, 01:08 PM
He certainly didn't coin the term "Hardcore Fan Freak" because he considers himself one (frankly I think it's fairly derogatory, but to each his/her own).

Just to clarify, BS didn't coin that term at all. I don't know who did, but Frenzy brought it to the mainstream when she overheard someone say it at a book signing. They were specifically referring to Theoryland, and yes, it was probably derogatory. But she brought it back and we embraced it.

the_collective
07-15-2011, 01:21 PM
Just to clarify, BS didn't coin that term at all. I don't know who did, but Frenzy brought it to the mainstream when she overheard someone say it at a book signing. They were specifically referring to Theoryland, and yes, it was probably derogatory. But she brought it back and we embraced it.

Thanks for clarifying. I apologize for saying otherwise. I was under the wrong impression from the quotes I've read about it.

Marie Curie 7
07-15-2011, 10:17 PM
Thanks for clarifying. I apologize for saying otherwise. I was under the wrong impression from the quotes I've read about it.

Here at Theoryland, we embrace our Hard Core Fan Freakiness:

Crossroads of Twilight tour, San Jose 10 January 2002 (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/120236/JAN-10-San-Jose-CA-Barnes-and-Noble#reply-120236)

Frenzy: While standing in line a group of guys in front of me were talking. One asked about Theoryland, which caught my attention. Another said, 'Yah, that's where all the hard core fan freaks hang out.' Another said, 'Some of the weirdest sh!t is posted there, it's hard to follow if you're not totally into it.' And so on. Yes, I'm paraphrasing a bit cuz it's been a few weeks, but "hard core fan freaks" is spot on.

Lupusdeusest
07-16-2011, 07:41 AM
I've said it multiple times already, and I'll say it again. While Sanderson's style is obviously different (and worse) than RJ's, that was to be expected and was already forgiven before TGS even came out. My problem with Sanderson is that he writes the "wrong" stuff. He puts in dialogue that clearly doesn't jive, entire events and scenes are either out of whack or shouldn't have been written in the first place.


Try reading the Fallon books and you may be able to see why they chose BS. RJ writes in those like a smoother BS in Warbreaker, except with a <i>hell</i> of a lot more sex, and it written in extremely graphic detail.
In other words, I can see why they chose BS - speed of writing aside - but he has yet to mature enough to match RJ.

GonzoTheGreat
07-16-2011, 07:45 AM
In other words, I can see why they chose BS - speed of writing aside - but he has yet to mature enough to match RJ.Maybe next time, RJ should die a bit later, so that BS can grow up sufficiently?

The Unreasoner
07-16-2011, 08:30 AM
Maybe next time, RJ should die a bit later, so that BS can grow up sufficiently?

I'm not sure whether to laugh or wince at that.

It seems that for a lot of people:

You know what will really piss me off...is if Brandon writes AMoL.

This wasn't really intended to be an attack thread, lol.

We need to channel anger into more productive outlets. I advise letting loose in the Bryne bashing thread (approx. 100% of HCFF).

FelixPax
07-16-2011, 09:15 AM
We need to channel anger into more productive outlets. I advise letting loose in the Bryne bashing thread (approx. 100% of HCFF).

Gareth Bryne rocks! :p ;)

Someone's got to stop the Seanchan & help save the Pattern. Gareth Bryne is a foolish enough of a stud to make a difference.

Gareth Bryne is a general, a lover, a destroyer & maker of rulers.
Gareth Bryne is tangled in love with Siuan.
And yet, Gareth Bryne is a free man. Now.

A free man with the loyalty and command of an Army. A free man, a kin to one Matrim Cauthon's situation ironically enough.

Daekyras
07-17-2011, 06:50 AM
Things that would annoy me in general:

1. The Last Battle happening in T'A'R.NOOOOOOOOOO!

2. Rand not being THE major player- I can see it been set up as someone else(I'll let ye all guess) and i don't like it..

3. A M:I 3 copout happy ending(very worried about this)

4. Deus Ex Machina

5. Moridin changing sides.

Toss the dice
07-17-2011, 11:08 AM
Things that would annoy me in general:

1. The Last Battle happening in T'A'R.NOOOOOOOOOO!I agree, that would be pretty lame. I think the World of Dreams has been overdone as it is, any decent portion of the Last Battle taking place in T'A'R would be very weak.

2. Rand not being THE major player- I can see it been set up as someone else(I'll let ye all guess) and i don't like it..If Logain or anyone else became the major player let alone the "true" Dragon - it would ruin the entire series. Think about it for a second.

3. A M:I 3 copout happy ending(very worried about this)Don't know what you said.

4. Deus Ex MachinaI agree here too.

5. Moridin changing sides.This wouldn't bother me very much. Moridin has always admitted playing both sides. Bad execution or timing of it would be the only thing I would have a problem with. Lanfear turning i figure to be a solid 50-50 chance, and would be fine either way. Very good storyline potential for Lanfear turning.

GonzoTheGreat
07-17-2011, 11:39 AM
If Logain or anyone else became the major player let alone the "true" Dragon - it would ruin the entire series. Think about it for a second.Mat being the True Dragon Reborn could be moderately awesome. It would satisfy the Seanchan prophecies, it would scare the shirt off the Sea Folk, and as for the AS ... :D

Toss the dice
07-17-2011, 12:13 PM
Mat being the True Dragon Reborn could be moderately awesome. It would satisfy the Seanchan prophecies, it would scare the shirt off the Sea Folk, and as for the AS ... :D

That would still ruin the series, but I admit it would be hilarious.

From what I can recall, Mat has fulfilled the Coramoor role and prophecies better than Rand has so far. Neither one has really done much for it, but as of now Mat wins out due to being behind the "Great Escape." Not exactly leading the Seafolk to glory and domination over the seas, but a lot better than the little Rand has done in that area. Even discounting the future Seanchan, the limited port lands the Seafolk get will supposedly be nearly insignificant.

The Aes Sedai reaction would be priceless. Any sort of large-scale interaction between Mat and Aes Sedai post-LB would have the sisters wanting to flog him within a matter of hours. Can you imagine that man actually inside the White Tower for official business? If they thought he was a fox among the chickens in Salidar...

It would also be cool to see Mat spank another Aes Sedai. And if he spanked Cadsuane, it would be the best scene in the series.

Daekyras
07-17-2011, 12:33 PM
Don't know what you said.




Sorry Toss. M:I 3 refers to mission inpossible 3.

It is a cracking movie with some excellent set pieces and a pretty entertaing classic M:I style story.

However, the ending is one of the most ridiculous things i have ever seen on screen.

If you have never seen it I urge you to- it has a DISNEY ending! Slow motion walking, people cheering and big toothy smiles included.

I would hate to see WoT end like that....

edit: and I HATE the idea of Moridin changing sides. Lanfear\Cyndane I don't mind.

And finally, Mat being the Dragon Reborn would be epic for one reason: Felix.

FelixPax
07-17-2011, 12:59 PM
edit: and I HATE the idea of Moridin changing sides. Lanfear\Cyndane I don't mind.

And finally, Mat being the Dragon Reborn would be epic for one reason: Felix.


Amused laughter... ;)


Perhaps more reader's will receive a shock, upon learning Valan Luca is the Dragon...

Then utter disbelieved amusement one chapter later when Valan Luca is hung to death by the Seanchan Empire for being associated with one alleged Darkfriend Bayle Domon, and one enemy of the State, Perrin.


Who does not suffer fools in times of conflict?

One Furyk Karede, Deathwatch Guard Banner-General, and father-like protector of Empress Fortuona.

Will Furyk Karede believe a letter claiming Bayle Domon is a Darkfriend? Will Perrin meet the other side other of a noose this time?

(Background: Perrin ordered the deaths of seven individuals on the word of one witness soldier, Ortis, in TPoD book, Chapter 10. How much evidence does it take to kill?)

Rand al'Fain
07-17-2011, 02:19 PM
I wouldn't mind an ending like what happened in the LOTR trilogy, an ending where everyone is now content with their places in the world and with a time of peace (for at least awhile), but somethings would just really piss me off as stated earlier in this thread.

Zombie Sammael
07-17-2011, 02:51 PM
Then utter disbelieved amusement one chapter later when Valan Luca is hung to death by the Seanchan Empire for being associated with one alleged Darkfriend Bayle Domon, and one enemy of the State, Perrin.

And there was much rejoicing....

If Luca dies, no matter what happens in the rest of the book, that is a good book as far as I'm concerned.

greatwolf
07-20-2011, 12:19 PM
You are misinterpreting the scene where Rand channeled the True Power. It is written somewhat ambiguously, but it's from Rand's point of view, and he just feels like the True Power is comparable to channeling using the Choedan Kal because it's so addictive. It really isn't any more powerful than the One Power. Brandon confirmed this:


I was referring to this:



Rand closed his eyes as he knelt above Min, then he channeled the strange, unknown force. Energy and life surged through him, a torrent of power like saidin, only ten times as sweet and a hundred times as violent. It made him alive, made him realize that he'd never been alive before. It gave him such strength as he'd never imagined. It rivaled, even, the power he'd held when drawing from the Choedan Kal.

There's another one where Rand thinks that he needs the CK to ward off the temptation of the True Power but I don't remember where that is.

In any case, how does Rand have access to that much of the TP?


The Bore into the Great Lord’s place of imprisonment was no closer here than anywhere else in the world, but here she could feel it, here she could bathe in the radiant glory of the Great Lord. The True Power washed around her, so strong here that attempting to channel it would fry her to a cinder. Not that she had any desire to pay the price elsewhere either.

As I said, I don't mind new developments, but they should be explained since we're at the end of the series or they'd just make the whole thing look sloppy.

Zombie Sammael
07-20-2011, 12:27 PM
I was referring to this:





There's another one where Rand thinks that he needs the CK to ward off the temptation of the True Power but I don't remember where that is.

In any case, how does Rand have access to that much of the TP?




As I said, I don't mind new developments, but they should be explained since we're at the end of the series or they'd just make the whole thing look sloppy.

I think that's what Marie is referring to, the scene is written to make it sound like he's drawing more TP than OP through CK (phew...), but in fact it's supposed to mean that the TP he's drawing is as addictive, life-filling, pleasurable and violent as the OP through the CK.

FelixPax
07-20-2011, 02:44 PM
In any case, how does Rand have access to that much of the TP?

Recall when in the Void, Rand al'Thor became one with the Black Cords or Steel Cords? The very same Black Cords Rand al'Thor saw Asmodean possessed at Rhuidean?

Rand al'Thor decided freely, like a fool, to become connected to the Dark One.


There are least three possibilities I see available, when the True Power was granted to Rand al'Thor:


The Dark One gave access to Rand al'Thor it, in 'The Eye of the World' book. Ishamael possibly told Rand of this indirectly during a Dream.
The Dark One gave access to Rand al'Thor it, in Rhuidean upon accepting the Black Cords or Steel Cords
The Dark One gave access to Rand al'Thor it, after Ishamael was re-born with a new body and name Moridin. When Moridin's soul was linked to Rand al'Thor soul at Shayol Ghul using Rand's Blood in some type of rite. Remember Ishamael possessed a sample of Rand al'Thor's blood gained from a dream. When the Dark One gave Moridin access to the True Power, by definition the True Power was given to both: Moridin, Rand.

kabkaba
07-20-2011, 03:25 PM
That would still ruin the series, but I admit it would be hilarious.

From what I can recall, Mat has fulfilled the Coramoor role and prophecies better than Rand has so far. Neither one has really done much for it, but as of now Mat wins out due to being behind the "Great Escape." Not exactly leading the Seafolk to glory and domination over the seas, but a lot better than the little Rand has done in that area. Even discounting the future Seanchan, the limited port lands the Seafolk get will supposedly be nearly insignificant.

The Aes Sedai reaction would be priceless. Any sort of large-scale interaction between Mat and Aes Sedai post-LB would have the sisters wanting to flog him within a matter of hours. Can you imagine that man actually inside the White Tower for official business? If they thought he was a fox among the chickens in Salidar...

It would also be cool to see Mat spank another Aes Sedai. And if he spanked Cadsuane, it would be the best scene in the series.

I am sure Mat has fulfilled Caracarn prophesies too since he too came with the dawn.

Zombie Sammael
07-20-2011, 03:53 PM
I am sure Mat has fulfilled Caracarn prophesies too since he too came with the dawn.

Oh Light, please don't.

greatwolf
07-20-2011, 06:33 PM
I think that's what Marie is referring to, the scene is written to make it sound like he's drawing more TP than OP through CK (phew...), but in fact it's supposed to mean that the TP he's drawing is as addictive, life-filling, pleasurable and violent as the OP through the CK.

The quote had already mentioned how addictive it was, the bolded bit certainly wasn't another reference to the addiction.

FelixPax
07-21-2011, 12:01 AM
I am sure Mat has fulfilled Caracarn prophesies too since he too came with the dawn.

Question is which Dawn matters?


How about the true Caracarn leaving Rhuidean on Sunday at Dawn? On a Day of two Dawns, and two Nights?

The Unreasoner
07-21-2011, 07:05 AM
Things that would annoy me in general:

1. The Last Battle happening in T'A'R.NOOOOOOOOOO!

I suspect at least part of it will. No regrets though.

2. Rand not being THE major player- I can see it been set up as someone else(I'll let ye all guess) and i don't like it..I'll take a wild guess. I suspect that many fans who managed to channel their hate of such a situation into a minor character (for instance, in a thread immune to Terez's merging, by the hate not being disguised, but rather quite overt) will be quite unbelieving of such a situation.

3. A M:I 3 copout happy ending(very worried about this)ohhh I hope not.

4. Deus Ex Machinadepends on where

5. Moridin changing sides.
I actually would be quite pleased with this result.

The Unreasoner
07-21-2011, 07:10 AM
You know, the irony of this whole series is that one of the major themes for each and every character in this "world" is taking action without all the information and making the best of it. And here's Brandon, frantically doing the same damn thing. I've been laughing about this for a couple of years and will likely continue into the next Age. Hopefully some of you can appreciate the joke with me.

There are tears in my eyes (though whether they are from joy or despair...)

Marie Curie 7
07-29-2011, 09:50 PM
I think that's what Marie is referring to, the scene is written to make it sound like he's drawing more TP than OP through CK (phew...), but in fact it's supposed to mean that the TP he's drawing is as addictive, life-filling, pleasurable and violent as the OP through the CK.

The quote had already mentioned how addictive it was, the bolded bit certainly wasn't another reference to the addiction.

I missed this because I was away at a conference last week. But yeah, the bolded bit in the quote from TGS is another reference to how strong the addiction to the True Power is. As I quoted before, Brandon confirmed this:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders, Washington DC 4 November 2009 - mrc1ark reporting

On the subject of the Choedan Kal, Brandon said that the True Power was not as strong as someone with the Choedan Kal. Just it felt as tempting and as addictive as the One Power through the Choedan Kal.

Using the True Power is not as powerful as someone drawing through the Choedan Kal. IT JUST FEELS LIKE IT BECAUSE IT IS SO ADDICTIVE.

Charlz Guybon
08-17-2011, 07:36 AM
Logain somehow ending up with all the credit for saving the world would enrage me.

the_collective
08-17-2011, 12:46 PM
Logain somehow ending up with all the credit for saving the world would enrage me.

I'm inclined to say that you can count on this happening. In fact, I'd dice with the Dark One himself or even bet against the luck of Matrim Cauthon that it's gonna happen. Of course, Mat's got a better track record for wins, but the writing is on the Shining Wall.

Charlz Guybon
08-18-2011, 04:07 AM
I'm inclined to say that you can count on this happening. In fact, I'd dice with the Dark One himself or even bet against the luck of Matrim Cauthon that it's gonna happen. Of course, Mat's got a better track record for wins, but the writing is on the Shining Wall.

And I'm quite ready to rage about it.

AbbeyRoad
08-18-2011, 02:31 PM
4. Deus Ex Machina
It's pronounced ta'veren.

And if Demandred fizzles onto the scene with lackluster, and is ended just as whimsically, I would not be happy. The Forsaken are all so weak and ineffectual that we need at least one to live up to the billing.

Also, if Moridin is converted to the Light without some intensely well-argued philosophical treatise, a happy camper I'll not be.

Davian93
08-18-2011, 03:31 PM
It's pronounced ta'veren.

And if Demandred fizzles onto the scene with lackluster, and is ended just as whimsically, I would not be happy. The Forsaken are all so weak and ineffectual that we need at least one to live up to the billing.

Also, if Moridin is converted to the Light without some intensely well-argued philosophical treatise, a happy camper I'll not be.

Maybe he'll be the one to kill Rand....that'd be pretty cool.

greatwolf
08-31-2011, 10:49 AM
Using the True Power is not as powerful as someone drawing through the Choedan Kal. IT JUST FEELS LIKE IT BECAUSE IT IS SO ADDICTIVE.


Oh, if he said its an error, then its alright I guess. Of course, it does make Rand seem to be something of a dolt, not able to make a distinction between the power and the addiction of the power.

Er, isn't the CK supposed to be buffered? As in should he feel more addicted to the OP when he draws through a sa'angreal?

GonzoTheGreat
08-31-2011, 11:43 AM
Oh, if he said its an error, then its alright I guess. Of course, it does make Rand seem to be something of a dolt, not able to make a distinction between the power and the addiction of the power.Well, there's the additional factor of Rand not having all that much experience with the TP, so judging its exact limitations would be less easy for him than it would be for the one that came up with that type of force.

Er, isn't the CK supposed to be buffered? As in should he feel more addicted to the OP when he draws through a sa'angreal?It is also supposed to be untested. And it is supposed to be something that frightens even most of the (rather power hungry) Forsaken.

greatwolf
09-01-2011, 10:19 AM
Well, there's the additional factor of Rand not having all that much experience with the TP, so judging its exact limitations would be less easy for him than it would be for the one that came up with that type of force.


Hmmmm, you're saying he's inexperienced and I'm saying he might look a little like he doesn't know what he's doing. I guess our views are different enough.:p

It is also supposed to be untested. And it is supposed to be something that frightens even most of the (rather power hungry) Forsaken.


What does that have to do with addiction?

Some of the forsaken (maybe most) have used the TP more than once. They're yet to become addicted to it. And they don't go around carrying saangreal (let alone the CK) to ward off its attraction.

GonzoTheGreat
09-01-2011, 10:24 AM
What does that have to do with addiction?It was not about addiction itself, but about whether or not the buffer on the CK is actually good enough to protect a channeler who, perhaps as a result of the addiction, tries to draw too much power through it.

We know that now and then something went wrong in sa'angreal manufacture (Callandor is a well known example). We know that with experimental prototypes things have a strong tendency to not always go entirely right. We know that the CK was an experimental prototype. So it does not require a big leap of faith to assume that the inbuilt buffer might not be entirely good enough to protect against deliberate mismanagement.

greatwolf
09-01-2011, 11:13 AM
It was not about addiction itself, but about whether or not the buffer on the CK is actually good enough to protect a channeler who, perhaps as a result of the addiction, tries to draw too much power through it.

Ok, so I'll ask again, what does this have to do with topic? Its a great way to change the topic i believe, but you weren't tryiong to do that were you?

GonzoTheGreat
09-01-2011, 11:22 AM
Ok, so I'll ask again, what does this have to do with topic? Its a great way to change the topic i believe, but you weren't tryiong to do that were you?On the one hand, Rand did not have the experience to truly judge what limitations there were in regard to the amount of TP he could draw. It was a lot, and the euphoria associated with it distorted his perception of precisely how much it was.
On the other hand, it seems clear that with the CK, he could also draw a lot of power, but not a very clear maximum (as would have been the case with a more conventional sa'angreal).

So in both cases, the amount of power he could maximally draw would have to be described as "lots", which makes comparing which is bigger a rather difficult exercise from his viewpoint. Especially given the fact that he did not dare experiment with either.

greatwolf
09-01-2011, 11:44 AM
On the one hand, Rand did not have the experience to truly judge what limitations there were in regard to the amount of TP he could draw.


How do you know when you've overdrawn? By experience of course, you get burned out! (Sorry, hadta!):D


It was a lot, and the euphoria associated with it distorted his perception of precisely how much it was.


The euphoria wasn't that much in evidence in the scene I remember, but I'll take your word for it.

On the other hand, it seems clear that with the CK, he could also draw a lot of power, but not a very clear maximum (as would have been the case with a more conventional sa'angreal).

He did mention he couldn't draw more than he was doing with the CK in the cleansing. He seems to know his limit with regard to the OP quantity wise. But while Nyn showed signs of ectasy, he apparently didn't feel anything. At least nothing that I recall from his pov.

The Unreasoner
09-04-2011, 11:42 AM
One thing that will definitely (at the very least) irritate me is Rand and Moridin merging into some kind of Slayer like entity, and if the last battle is won by Fain killing Superslayer. Some sort of force outside the pattern destroying the living union of the conduits of the shadow and the light.

Also, if Rand and Moridin goes down like Neo and Agent Smith, I'll [redacted].

Rand al'Fain
09-04-2011, 03:44 PM
One thing that will definitely (at the very least) irritate me is Rand and Moridin merging into some kind of Slayer like entity, and if the last battle is won by Fain killing Superslayer. Some sort of force outside the pattern destroying the living union of the conduits of the shadow and the light.

Also, if Rand and Moridin goes down like Neo and Agent Smith, I'll [redacted].

Yeah, I've never been a fan of the whole merging thing, outside of DBZ anyways :p, and that would be one of the big things that would cause me to throw my book at the wall.

Lupusdeusest
09-04-2011, 09:25 PM
I just thought of another one!
A lovey-dovey scene between Mat and Tuon.
By lovey-dovey I mean one with lots of pink hearts (think Nyn with Lan) instead of one that's a bit more representative of their true selves.


Also (this one slightly joking): finding out that baths don't have ta'veren powers.

Rand al'Fain
09-04-2011, 10:13 PM
I just thought of another one!
A lovey-dovey scene between Mat and Tuon.
By lovey-dovey I mean one with lots of pink hearts (think Nyn with Lan) instead of one that's a bit more representative of their true selves.


Also (this one slightly joking): finding out that baths don't have ta'veren powers.
Wow. Never thought of that before. But I agree, Mat and Tuon's relationship is not the "lovey-dovey" kind. Even if Tuon comes to actually love Mat, I really don't see their relationship changing too much.

GonzoTheGreat
09-05-2011, 04:50 AM
Tuon might do it in an attempt to keep Mat on edge. Would work, too.

Daekyras
09-05-2011, 06:15 AM
Yeah, I've never been a fan of the whole merging thing...

Really? I've always been quite fond of a bit of "merging". Of course, thats not what we call it round here...;)

GonzoTheGreat
09-05-2011, 06:48 AM
Really? I've always been quite fond of a bit of "merging". Of course, thats not what we call it round here...;)That's called "comforting". I suspect Terez would be quite happy if Rand and Moridin did that. I don't think she believes it will happen, though.

Rand al'Fain
09-06-2011, 12:03 AM
Really? I've always been quite fond of a bit of "merging". Of course, thats not what we call it round here...;)
I lol'd.

But still, the actual theory of Rand and Moridin merging into one body or whatever, is FAR from my favorite theory.

Lupusdeusest
09-06-2011, 08:50 PM
Oh, and not seeing any more of Verin's stock of notebooks.

Lupusdeusest
09-06-2011, 08:52 PM
Re Rand-Ishydin "merging" (hurr, hurr) - I have been resigned since LoC to not seeing any male... pillow-friends.
Although would they still be called pillow-friends?




...my mind has shot into a gutter.

GonzoTheGreat
09-07-2011, 05:21 AM
...my mind has shot into a gutter.According to some, in TEOTW, when they couldn't afford any pillows, Mat and Rand were gutter-friends.

Lupusdeusest
09-07-2011, 06:04 AM
According to some, in TEOTW, when they couldn't afford any pillows, Mat and Rand were gutter-friends.

Ooh, I had forgotten that stint.
(I am deliberately not saying any more in this comment.)

Daekyras
09-07-2011, 06:10 AM
Ooh, I had forgotten that stint.
(I am deliberately not saying any more in this comment.)

That joke is almost as old as the books themselves. Ruby tipped dagger, ha ha ha etc more forced laughter.

Anyway, gay character meant to be showing up in next book. Lot of people think it may be androl. To some, it's a big deal...

AbbeyRoad
09-07-2011, 02:18 PM
Also, if Rand and Moridin goes down like Neo and Agent Smith, I'll [redacted].
Well, Rand is certainly Neo but Moridin is not Agent Smith. Fain is Smith. Moridin is the Merovingian. He serves the Dark One (the machine mainframe, or Deux ex Machina) but on his own terms and with his own private motivations, while Neo/Rand was created to help continue the cycle/wheel. They're all part of the creator/architect's system of control except for Fain/Smith who, well, isn't.

Zombie Sammael
09-07-2011, 03:24 PM
Well, Rand is certainly Neo but Moridin is not Agent Smith. Fain is Smith. Moridin is the Merovingian. He serves the Dark One (the machine mainframe, or Deux ex Machina) but on his own terms and with his own private motivations, while Neo/Rand was created to help continue the cycle/wheel. They're all part of the creator/architect's system of control except for Fain/Smith who, well, isn't.

Youngling rep. If we're still doing that.

The Unreasoner
09-07-2011, 10:42 PM
Well, Rand is certainly Neo but Moridin is not Agent Smith. Fain is Smith. Moridin is the Merovingian. He serves the Dark One (the machine mainframe, or Deux ex Machina) but on his own terms and with his own private motivations, while Neo/Rand was created to help continue the cycle/wheel. They're all part of the creator/architect's system of control except for Fain/Smith who, well, isn't.

I meant more along the lines of "Rand wins by merging with Moridin." And otherwise, it's not really one to one. Rand is Neo insofar as he is the Chosen One, has superpowers, is reborn cyclically, is the good guy, etc...but Moridin is the Merovingian only in the sense that he is a primary villain with free will of the established evil. The Matrix and the rebel city are set up to perpetually repeat a cycle of events. The 'one' was usually content to maintain the (apparently evil) status quo, and both sides would generally be fairly content. In WoT, Moridin is the one craving freedom from the cycle. Smith being Fain works for me though. I have no idea what either of their endgames are.
Youngling rep. If we're still doing that.
Of course we are. And it's not really my thing, you could update the records and give me a copy for my sig.