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Ishara
07-08-2011, 07:33 PM
To recap the concept:

First, pop over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5669) for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

(And remember: a new character of the week does preclude continuing discussion on past topics!)

This week, we'll be discussing: Elmindreda Farshaw

I'll be honest: I've always had a little trouble with Min...she seems a secondary character at best, and yet, occasionally she shows glimmers of greatness.

She nearly always wins the "who would you date" contest (not sure why) but not the "who is the hottest/most beautiful character." She seems, in recent books, to have developed an intellectual appeal as well. Now she's the brainy, cute girl next door (I guess sort of like Felicia Day?).

I'd love to hear a re-hash of the Evil Min (especially for the benefit of the new folks) theory, complete with wacky conspiracy theories, as well as any predictions any and all have for Min. But remember, this isn't about whether you like her or not - it's about what you think of her, and why.

I've always found it mildly strange that she and Rand hit it off, plot notwithstanding. She seems too self-sufficient for the Prince of Mope to like having around. Then again, she does kick his tail into action every once in a while. Is she stupidly loyal? Is she secretly biding her time? Has she figured out how to seal the Bore?

Have at it!

greatwolf
07-09-2011, 03:25 AM
Yeah, Min is certainly unique in so many ways. Right now the biggest question in mind is why the shadow hasn't tried to "off" her. I mean her insight is certainly dangerous.

She came very close to revealing Taim and her gift might eventually tell Rand her to win the LB. Why kill Fel and leave Min around?

Is the answer Taveren? Or they think she's too stupid to count? (She hasn't exposed any DFs yet) Or are the forsaken simply dismissing her because it didn't exist in their age?

Toss the dice
07-09-2011, 03:59 AM
I think earlier on in the series when it would have probably been easier to assassinate Min, the Shadow didn't know about her. Or at least, the right characters of the Shadow didn't know about her.

I assume the Shadow has known about Min for awhile now, the last several books or so. That almost certainly includes her ability as well. I'm making this assumption based off the likelihood that one of the main Aiel Wise Ones is a Darkfriend, but enough people know about it by now that it could have leaked out just about anywhere.

However, Min has been pretty much surrounded by characters of the Light during this time, and usually Rand has been right there as well. I don't think the Shadow has really had a chance to assassinate her anytime recently. At worst it would have been nearly impossible to pull off. Also, for most of the Forsaken (other than Moridin), any Gray Men that could have been sent would be better aimed at Rand himself, since he would have been with her.

To sum up, it is my opinion that by the time the Shadow knew about Min and her importance, the opportunities to off her were no longer readily available. Also, any proponents of the Shadow that knew of her before this time either didn't necessarily associate her with Rand and/or possibly wanted to keep her alive in order to use her or learn more about her first.

In my opinion this wasn't so much luck on Min's behalf as it was something that simply made sense. She kept a relatively low profile and had a strong aversion to share her ability and ties with Rand - right up until LoC when she was with him more or less for good. Even then she was wary of sharing her ability with anyone, starting only with Melaine in the beginning.

Considering all of the variables on her side, I don't see it as far-fetched that she hasn't been assassinated yet, or even that no one has seemingly targeted specifically her. The Shadow has an extremely poor network of communication, from the bottom of its ladder all the way to the top, and the Forsaken themselves hardly love to share information with each other. For her to be assassinated, I see it as requiring someone of the Shadow being in the right place at the right time, one of the few that actual knows about her, and probably has also received orders to kill her. Any of the few who possibly have fit the above criteria likely haven't had the CHANCE to kill her, as in any attempts would have been simple suicide with zero chance of success.

GonzoTheGreat
07-09-2011, 04:09 AM
Min is just too cute to be targeted for assassination. Even Lanfear, when she found Rand sleeping in Min's arms, was nice and polite to "that woman".

She nearly always wins the "who would you date" contest (not sure why) but not the "who is the hottest/most beautiful character."-She's easy to get into bed, apparently. :p
-Elayne comes with oodles of political complications.
-Aviendha is very nearly as mad as Mat's women are. :D

Lanfear should win the "who would you date a second time" contest, since not dating her a second time would not be a very good idea.

skaywalker
07-09-2011, 04:28 AM
In my opinion this wasn't so much luck on Min's behalf as it was something that simply made sense. She kept a relatively low profile and had a strong aversion to share her ability and ties with Rand - right up until LoC when she was with him more or less for good. Even then she was wary of sharing her ability with anyone, starting only with Melaine in the beginning.

Considering all of the variables on her side, I don't see it as far-fetched that she hasn't been assassinated yet, or even that no one has seemingly targeted specifically her. The Shadow has an extremely poor network of communication, from the bottom of its ladder all the way to the top, and the Forsaken themselves hardly love to share information with each other. For her to be assassinated, I see it as requiring someone of the Shadow being in the right place at the right time, one of the few that actual knows about her, and probably has also received orders to kill her. Any of the few who possibly have fit the above criteria likely haven't had the CHANCE to kill her, as in any attempts would have been simple suicide with zero chance of success.

This!


When Greandal used the dove trick in Natrin's Barrow she thought of Min as "Al Thor's dark-haired lover". Nothing more. Semiraghe never mentioned anything about the Shadow wanting Min dead when she captured Rand with the domination band. She just used her to make Rand suffer.

Juan
07-09-2011, 05:02 AM
I think Min is hot because RJ described her so in the books.

Zombie Sammael
07-09-2011, 05:20 AM
Min is just too cute to be targeted for assassination. Even Lanfear, when she found Rand sleeping in Min's arms, was nice and polite to "that woman".

-She's easy to get into bed, apparently. :p
-Elayne comes with oodles of political complications.
-Aviendha is very nearly as mad as Mat's women are. :D

Lanfear should win the "who would you date a second time" contest, since not dating her a second time would not be a very good idea.

I'd date Tuon. She seems like my type.

Jonai
07-09-2011, 06:35 AM
I think Min gets shortchanged early in the series as to her relevance, by virtue of being one of the cards that RJ had to hold close to the vest. She's a foretelling machine, and he kept a pretty tight lid on Last Battle revelations for quite some time.

I don't find it surprising that she hasn't been in the Shadow's cross hairs. I mean, hell, Sammael had Mat in line of sight, but he thought the Bowl of the Winds cache was more important. I wouldn't bet on Moridin not knowing about Min's ability. He seems to know about all the special abilities that has sprouted in various turnings of the Wheel. Like others have said though, the content has probably not been divulged.

I don't find it strange that Min and Rand hit it off. She seems like the closest to him in upbringing. Baerlon seems to be a large town at best, and while a large town might not be that close to the Two Rivers, its a lot closer than a snooty noble or crazy Aiel.

I don't think RJ wanted us to recognize Min's importance early on, and not to mention, Rand and Min Halimaing it up in the first 150 pages of the first book might have been a little...odd.

Ishara
07-09-2011, 01:05 PM
It took me much longer than a minute to figure out what the hell "Halimaing" was. LOL. Well done!

I have difficulty seeing those two "in love". Their relationship is about as solidly based in their first encounters as him and Elayne's (read: not at all). RJ had this bad habit of having people meet once, innocuously, and then be in love with each other from afar. I just didn't buy the sincerity of her feelings for him until LoC.

Also, I still see her as a bit...fishy. I get the fact that RJ/ BS have been parsing out her visions to us, but what the hell has stopped her from sitting down the relevant parties and spilling the beans about everything. It just doesn't logically...

GonzoTheGreat
07-09-2011, 01:17 PM
It just doesn't logically...Min is probably White Ajah.

Davian93
07-09-2011, 01:22 PM
It took me much longer than a minute to figure out what the hell "Halimaing" was. LOL. Well done!

I have difficulty seeing those two "in love". Their relationship is about as solidly based in their first encounters as him and Elayne's (read: not at all). RJ had this bad habit of having people meet once, innocuously, and then be in love with each other from afar. I just didn't buy the sincerity of her feelings for him until LoC.

Also, I still see her as a bit...fishy. I get the fact that RJ/ BS have been parsing out her visions to us, but what the hell has stopped her from sitting down the relevant parties and spilling the beans about everything. It just doesn't logically...

The Elayne one really pisses me off...I mean, the entire extent of their relationship has been approximately 3.5 days total (3 days in the Stone and maybe 12 hrs combined between his first visit to Camelyn where he falls from the tree and his second where they get it on) One hell of a relationship there.

With Min, I can at least see it. Min sees him for the first time in Baerlon and has a vision that she will fall in love with him. Thus, its a self-fulfilling prophecy at that point. She knows it will happen so she accepts it (thus her comments in the Tower that hint she's already in love with him). Then she spends a literal TON of time with him from Lord of Chaos onward...a very good amount before the relationship is consummated. Only Avi can claim a similar amount of time with him and Min & Rand's relationship was far less adversarial than that one. If anything, Min and Rand's romance makes the most sense out of any of the ones in the story...other than perhaps Faile & Perrin (who also have a legitimate courting period, lots of hormones, the lack of other options and the fear of death that pushes them together).

SO, while I agree with the Rand & Elayne comment completely...I disagree on Min & Rand. Hell, Rand was oblivious to her for months before he realized that it wasn't just friendship he felt towards her...and then he was fearful as to the legitimacy of his feelings due to the Taint and his constant battle with possibly going mad.

David Selig
07-09-2011, 01:42 PM
Yeah, I have some minor problems with Rand and Min's love story (mostly why she spent months with him in the mountains between TGH and TDR and never made her feeling known to him, which seem out of character), but comparing it to the Rand - Elayne's totally ridiculous one, it's romance for the ages. The series would've been much better if Rand - Elayne was just a brief fling that didn't work out or didn't happen at all. Rand having three lovers happy to share him was one of RJ's worst ideas IMO.

Anyway, the thing I like about Min is that she manages to hold her own in comparison with all the other main characters, despite lacking the useful superpowers or royalty status that the others have. She has the visions, but they pale in comparison to being a powerful channeller or a ta'veren. She's smart, she's funny (her meeting with Gawyn and Galad in TSR, while she was "Elmindreda" in the Tower, is one of the funniest moments in the books) and loyal to her friends. and Rand. Her rise to a master researcher of prophesies is abrupt, but I've accepted it since apparently in the WoT world, being a main character you learn 10 times faster than ordinary humans. And she had to have another role in the beside giving us something to speculate about with the visions, and being Rand's lover.

Toss the dice
07-09-2011, 02:43 PM
I agree that she could be considered a "master researcher of the prophecies," but that is a very relative thing. She has read a ton of books and material on the subject, which pretty much by default (considering the nature of the subject and the wot world) automatically makes her a master researcher of it.

I don't think it has anything to do with learning 10x faster as a main character. Anyone who put in the time and read what she had read on the subject would be considered a "master" as well. She may get a little help from her visions though, if she is able to connect the two.

Zombie Sammael
07-09-2011, 02:53 PM
Maybe making people suddenly and unexpectedly fall in love with you after only a relatively short period of time is a side-effect of being ta'veren? There is precedent, after all.

greatwolf
07-09-2011, 04:02 PM
I don't find it surprising that she hasn't been in the Shadow's cross hairs. I mean, hell, Sammael had Mat in line of sight, but he thought the Bowl of the Winds cache was more important.



We've seen what happens when you have a taveren in your sights - Rand in Fal dara and Perrin in Amadicia. I think getting at Min while she's with Rand will take a lot more than that. Probably someone outside the pattern like Fain.


I wouldn't bet on Moridin not knowing about Min's ability. He seems to know about all the special abilities that has sprouted in various turnings of the Wheel.


I think he does. But when? Maybe not before aCoS because he had the perfect opportunity to hit at her while Rand was with Sammael. And the motive. I have no doubt he'd love to cause Rand emotional grief. But then considering what happened to Rahvin... Maybe the motivation is lacking.

The Unreasoner
07-09-2011, 05:05 PM
Or he wanted her death as part of a systematic destruction of all rand cares for to fill him with a despair that sets him to euthanizing the world.

Southpaw2012
07-10-2011, 02:09 AM
my big question is, what will happen if Rand survives TG... Do they all live with him? But honestly, I believe Min dies because it would be an interesting twist to the whole, her seeing everyone elses future (not everyone but a lot) but not being able to see her own fate and then her dying

Juan
07-10-2011, 03:47 AM
I wonder if Min can see visions of herself if she looks in a mirror...

Toss the dice
07-10-2011, 05:17 AM
If Rand and all three of his women survive the Last Battle and figuratively ride off into the sunset together, Min's lack of channeling ability could make for awkwardness.

For the most part Rand, Aviendha, and Elayne are going to look about the same for a very long time, while Min is going to age and grow old. Not to mention the fact that she will die while the rest will live on.

Providing they all live, in a way the most fair choice would be for Rand and Min to live together exclusively until she dies...then Rand can get on with the rest of his life with Aviendha and Elayne for the next few hundred years. Lol Rand could even use the Mirror of Mists to gradually "age" along with Min. When she grows old, maybe he could be his normal self on Friday nights, so the old bag could feel sexy with the younger man. As soon as she dies - oop, time to transform back and go meet the other two.

GonzoTheGreat
07-10-2011, 05:21 AM
I wonder if Min can see visions of herself if she looks in a mirror...She probably doesn't have a reflection. Fades don't either, I think.

Or he wanted her death as part of a systematic destruction of all rand cares for to fill him with a despair that sets him to euthanizing the world.But he would want Min's death to happen in such a way that Rand blames himself. Having Rand blame Moridin would not help, that would only make Rand want revenge. Then he'd become a Sith Lord instead of a Forsaken, which would only mess up the narrative.

Jonai
07-10-2011, 05:56 AM
If Rand and all three of his women survive the Last Battle and figuratively ride off into the sunset together, Min's lack of channeling ability could make for awkwardness.

For the most part Rand, Aviendha, and Elayne are going to look about the same for a very long time, while Min is going to age and grow old. Not to mention the fact that she will die while the rest will live on.

Providing they all live, in a way the most fair choice would be for Rand and Min to live together exclusively until she dies...then Rand can get on with the rest of his life with Aviendha and Elayne for the next few hundred years. Lol Rand could even use the Mirror of Mists to gradually "age" along with Min. When she grows old, maybe he could be his normal self on Friday nights, so the old bag could feel sexy with the younger man. As soon as she dies - oop, time to transform back and go meet the other two.

Lol. I think we've all seen that particular scenario, batted about quite a few times, over the years, but I don't think I've ever seen your unique twist before. lol. I'm not sold though. Sure, Rand and the girls should age like that, but will they? The girls, most likely, yes, but I'm not convinced that Rand will. Who knows how much damage the taint, and his various injuries have done to his future longevity.

FelixPax
07-10-2011, 08:01 AM
Future Flame for Elmindreda Farshaw's Passions


When shall she meet and marry her Prince?



A man, "handsome in a rugged sort of way, though certainly only a woman in love would have called him beautiful."
A man who, "was a lord. He had visited the courts of almost every land, traveled with a small library, and won or lost gambling with the same easy smile. He could recite poetry and play the harp and dance like a dream."



In short, except for being Rafela’s Warder, he was exactly the sort of man she had liked before meeting Rand. Still liked, actually.


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 49 "The Mirror of Mists" - Ellmindreda Farshaw point of view; her thoughts.


Who shall Min next man be, after "sowing her wild oats"?


In terms of a rearview mirror look after reading TGS book (Chapter 22), I found this passage of text quite enlightening:

“So, cabbage,” he said with a grin, “back with your neck unbroken, not kidnapped and not married.”

---Mahiro Shukosa's words to Min pov


She's has barely survived Rand choking her,
Next up kidnapping, and getting married.




A Mystery


A deep mystery, which Aes Sedai was the prior owner of Min's Horse Seiera?


As he mounted, Min led up the mouse-colored mare she had ridden back, snugging on her riding gloves before swinging into the saddle. “Seiera’s a fine animal,” she said, patting the mare’s arched neck. “I wish she was mine. I like her name, too. We call the flower a blue-eye around Baerlon, and they grow everywhere in the spring.”

“She’s yours,” Rand said. Whichever Aes Sedai the mare belonged to would not refuse to sell to him. He would give Kiruna a thousand crowns for Tai’daishar; she could not complain then; the finest stallion of Tairen bloodstock never cost a tenth of that


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 34 "Ta'veren" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Min


Why does it matter?

Aes Sedai are known for healing their horses repeatedly on long journeys. One side effect, of healing a being, is it creates a connection between Healer & Wounded. A beacon like tie, which Moiraine calls an 'affinity'.


“I will go further,” Moiraine said when Nynaeve kept silent. “You used the Power to Heal either Perrin or Egwene at some time. An affinity develops. You can sense the presence of someone you have Healed.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 21 "Listen to the Wind" --- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view; with Moiraine, Lan


Casepoint: A Mystery Aes Sedai possesses an affinity to Min's Horse Siesa.

Locate the Horse, one locates Min's whereabouts.


Implication: Handy to set up a kidnapping, or to rescue a taken Min Farshaw.







----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Coincidences of Association? Or Not?


Min's Cabbage is an: Earthy, Dance, Queen, of Vines, and Life?



1st--- Cabbage in one turn of meaning, is a synonym for the word "Earthy". Earthy as in real world Earth Mother mythology & folklore parallels.


In terms of WoT characters, Min's Earthy symbolism is related to: Ila, Nakomi, Amathera, Juilin, Green Man among others.

Many WoT institutions are also related to Min's Earthiness: Ogier, Aes Sedai, Seanchan Imperial House, the Waygates.
In terms of States related to Min's Earthiness: Tarabon, Andor, Almoth Plains, Arad Doman, Cairhien come to mind in particular.

2nd---- Remember William Morris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Morris)'s 'Cabbage and Vine' tapestry?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Morris_Cabbage_and_Vine_tapestry_1879.jpg/397px-Morris_Cabbage_and_Vine_tapestry_1879.jpg


3rd---- Ever heard of 1980's "The (http://youtu.be/XY-xjAFKSQc) Cabbage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHW69vx_pPo) Patch (http://youtu.be/3suw_vb6-fY) Dance (http://youtu.be/oPqhxegO_DM)"?

RJ's did always seems to want his character's to wiggle & shake to a dance rhythm created by trumpets, drums, horns, flutes, pipes, harps, bittern, dulcimer....

4th--- A chance coincidence, that colors of one common Cabbage is "Red and White"? The very same colors as Andor's Royal Ruling House?
Purple Cabbage? A color of choice, for Roman Elites in the Empire. A symbol of leadership. Only (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1265562/What-colour-purple-excites-politicians.html) Roman Elites worn Purple togas. Wow, look at those Purple Cabbages! ;)
Green Cabbage? A parallel of WoT's Tree of Life, a symbol of growth. Yep, Min's hitched to that Tree.



Is Elmindreda Farshaw, an Earthy Dance Queen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REElUors1pQ) of the Cabbage and Vine beyond (http://youtu.be/qFHbwikzNds) ;)

FelixPax
07-10-2011, 08:08 AM
The series would've been much better if Rand - Elayne was just a brief fling that didn't work out or didn't happen at all.

Loved this particular comment!
I think it's on target completely.


Rand having three lovers happy to share him was one of RJ's worst ideas IMO.

Chuckles, I can't wait to hear your future responses after reading AMoL book. ;)

WinespringBrother
07-10-2011, 11:58 AM
The Elayne one really pisses me off...I mean, the entire extent of their relationship has been approximately 3.5 days total (3 days in the Stone and maybe 12 hrs combined between his first visit to Camelyn where he falls from the tree and his second where they get it on) One hell of a relationship there.

Long distance relationship...it's happened before.

I think Min is awesome (even named one of my cats Elmindreda)! After all, she is clearly an HCFF :D - she spends all her time theorizing and arguing about books and was obsessed with one of the authors (Herid) in a manner of speaking.

The Unreasoner
07-10-2011, 02:08 PM
True that.

And I like the idea that min gets him first, then I suppose bound elayne, and last Aviendha. But I doubt it will happen.

You know a question I had that i was going to ask RJ but choked at the last moment and asked about Shaidar Haran instead,

Do min and Aviendha share a soul? They are quite alike, and differences in talents might be due to biological concerns

Juan
07-10-2011, 02:17 PM
Min, Avi, and Elayne will fulfill the three shall become one. They'll get Min's brains, Avi's feistiness, and Elayne's love to be clean and bathe. What a woman.

greatwolf
07-10-2011, 04:52 PM
I wonder if Min can see visions of herself if she looks in a mirror...

You mean she doesn't look in mirrors?

yks 6nnetu hing
07-11-2011, 04:07 AM
I've now just started tDR in my re-read ant there's a nice conversation between Perrin and Min about destiny, being ta'veeren, not being able to choose or change certain things, Min says:

TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 2 - Saidin
Loial made a noncommittal sound, but Min seemed to take it for agreement. "Yes," she said emphatically. "There I was, living my life in Baerlon as I liked it, when suddenly I was grabbed up by the scruff of the neck and jerked off to the Light knows where. Well, I might as well have been. My life has not been my own since I met Moiraine. And these Two Rivers farmboys. " She rolled her eyes at Perrin, a wry twist to her mouth. "All I wanted was to live as I pleased, fall in love with a man I chose . . . ." Her cheeks reddened suddenly, and she cleared her throat. "I mean to say, what is wrong with wanting to live your life without all this upheaval?"
/--/

TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 2 - Saidin
Min smiled, a friendly smile, and Loial's ears pricked back up again. "That's wonderful," she told him. "But some of us feel as if we're being danced about like puppets by these ta'veren."
/--/

TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 3 - News from the Plain Darkness shrouded part of the crack, for in one place the tremors had collapsed a part of the wall against the other side, high up. He stared up at the blackness warily before hurrying underneath, but the slab of stone seemed to be solidly wedged in place. The itch had returned to the back of his head, stronger than before. No, burn me! No! It went away.
"I don't see what that has to do with this." Her look said he obviously was not trying to understand, and her voice became overly patient. "Just because fate has chosen something for you instead of you choosing it for yourself doesn't mean it has to be bad. Even if it's something you are sure you would never have chosen in a hundred years. 'Better ten days of love than years of regretting,' " she quoted.

Technically Min's the first one of Rand's 3 that Rand meets (in Baerlon, whole weeks!!! before he meets Elayne:p), she's also the one that stays by his side the most so in that sense her and Rand's love story seems the most organic although it's not entirely free of the "love at first sight" problem RJ has, and she's the only one that doesn't channel. While she makes jokes about sheepherders, she's not prodding Rand to learn the Aiel ways and neither is she trying to get him to play the Daes Dae'mar. She's the oldest of the three (iirc, she's a bit older than Rand) and yet she chooses to not be dominant but rather the contrary, to be in the background - but constant, she refuses to be brushed aside. In a way she's the most devoted to Rand and to Rand's cause. Sure, she's self-sufficient in her own way so she doesn't necessarily *need* Rand (to provide for her or whatever) but unlike Elayne or Aviendha, she doesn't stress her own agenda with Rand but rather molds herself to his needs. It takes a very strong woman to be able to do that and yet remain true to herself.

greatwolf
07-11-2011, 05:04 AM
her and Rand's love story seems the most organic although it's not entirely free of the "love at first sight" problem RJ has,.


What's wrong with love at first sight? I do it all the time. :p

You left out she being the only one who has time for Rand. And maybe that Rand can accept without feeling guilty about keeping her around. He can always pretend he keeps Min with him because of her visions despite the danger, but we know its because he needs her desperately.

She's the only thing that comes close to a normal life for him. If she called him Lord Dragon, he'll probably go bonkers right there.

Davian93
07-11-2011, 08:32 AM
Do we ever get a solid age on Min? I always figured her to be in the 24-28 range (when they first meet and Rand is 18)...is that accurate you think?

If so...Way to go Rand!!!:D

FelixPax
07-11-2011, 08:45 AM
True that.

Do min and Aviendha share a soul? They are quite alike, and differences in talents might be due to biological concerns

I recall RJ once mentioning to an HCFF, that all of Rand's lovers have elements of Harriet in them. Even Semirhage too, when Harriet told RJ to take out the trash. ;) Perhaps that's what your noticing?


However do Aviendha and Min share a soul, in WoT terms? I doubt it. Why? Channeling genes tied to the soul or person, in WoT--according to RJ in prior interviews. Since Min cannot channel, yet Aviendha can...that directly implies their completely different souls.

Whereas, Mat Cauthon and young Mat--Olver--do seem to be the very same soul. Difference between Mat's two souls, is the collective experiences of each & different situations of each.

Mat Cauthon spoke to his own soul, Artur Hawkwing, once before at Falme in TGH book.


Back to Min, how do you think she would take marrying Mat Cauthon? Her thoughts?

ChubbyAiel
07-11-2011, 10:06 AM
Do we ever get a solid age on Min? I always figured her to be in the 24-28 range (when they first meet and Rand is 18)...is that accurate you think?

I thought there was a bit in the Eye of the World, just after they meet Min where Rand or Mat says something about Min nearly being as old as Nynaeve, so if Nynaeve is 24-26 at the start of the series, I would think Min would have been 22-25-ish. Still, good on the 18/19-year-old Rand.

Or maybe I'm thinking about a later discussion of Berelain...

As for sharing souls - I don't see any reason to think that a soul would be split. Similarities between Min and Aviendha are just coincidence made believable by the fact that all three women are obviously Rand's "type" so are bound to share characteristics or outlooks on the world, etc.

Kimon
07-11-2011, 10:46 AM
I thought there was a bit in the Eye of the World, just after they meet Min where Rand or Mat says something about Min nearly being as old as Nynaeve, so if Nynaeve is 24-26 at the start of the series, I would think Min would have been 22-25-ish. Still, good on the 18/19-year-old Rand.

Or maybe I'm thinking about a later discussion of Berelain...

As for sharing souls - I don't see any reason to think that a soul would be split. Similarities between Min and Aviendha are just coincidence made believable by the fact that all three women are obviously Rand's "type" so are bound to share characteristics or outlooks on the world, etc.

We're never given a specific age, but in tEotW we're told that she is in her early to mid twenties, and then in LoC we're told that when she was twenty she was working as a serving girl in a bar in Baerlon. There's also the Elayne POV in the prologue to LoC where she gives this observation:

Min's laugh had a huskiness to it; Elayne supposed many men would find that attractive. And she was pretty, in a mischievous sort of way. And a few years older; was that in her favor, or against?

Clearly Min is older than Rand, but does Elayne mean that Min is a few years older than herself, or a few years older than Rand? If the former, then maybe she is 21 or 22, if the latter then maybe 22 to 24. The phrase seems to make more sense as read as saying that she is a few years older than Elayne, and if so, it is unlikely that she is older than 22, as any older would be more than just a "few years" in my opinion.

ChubbyAiel
07-11-2011, 11:07 AM
The phrase seems to make more sense as read as saying that she is a few years older than Elayne, and if so, it is unlikely that she is older than 22, as any older would be more than just a "few years" in my opinion.

I'd agree that Elayne is using her own age as the reference point, but as for what "a few" means - that is very much open for debate. I'd say I'm "a few years older" than my 22 year old second-cousin, and I'm 29 next month. Maybe I'm just in denial about how old I am... :(

Even if Elayne would consider seven years to be more than "a few" is there any indication that Elayne actually knows Min's age or is just hazzarding a guess herself, and using the phrase "a few" because she really doesn't know? I met that 22 year old cousin of mine for the first time at New Year's Eve and he said to his mum that he would never have guessed I was 28. There. I've cheered myself up :)

David Selig
07-11-2011, 11:11 AM
It's weird how rarely anyone's age is mentioned in WoT. I guess it's not just the Aes Sedai who have a taboo against that. ;)

My impression is that Min is at least 3-4 years older than Rand - besides the things already mentioned, she thought at one point "she had had her first kiss while he (Rand) still thought getting out of tending sheep was the most fun in the world".

Kimon
07-11-2011, 11:17 AM
I'd agree that Elayne is using her own age as the reference point, but as for what "a few" means - that is very much open for debate. I'd say I'm "a few years older" than my 22 year old second-cousin, and I'm 29 next month. Maybe I'm just in denial about how old I am... :(

Even if Elayne would consider seven years to be more than "a few" is there any indication that Elayne actually knows Min's age or is just hazzarding a guess herself, and using the phrase "a few" because she really doesn't know? I met that 22 year old cousin of mine for the first time at New Year's Eve and he said to his mum that he would never have guessed I was 28. There. I've cheered myself up :)

I think the most accuracy that we are capable of is that she is at least 21 in tEotW, which would assume that she is at least a year removed from her unpleasant stint as a tavern wench, and at least a little younger than Nynaeve. So somewhere between 21 and 25 years old upon first meeting Rand. I tend to think that the target should be placed at the lower end of that spectrum, but a reasonable argument could be made for pushing her age closer to mid-twenties. As for "a few", in my opinion that should mean somewhere between 2-4, so even giving her age as 21 or 22, would be stretching my impression of what should be just a few years older than Elayne, but that would seem the absolute youngest that Min could be.

the_collective
07-11-2011, 05:03 PM
They'll get Min's brains, Avi's feistiness, and Elayne's love to be clean and bathe. What a woman.

THIS is an excellent comment, however completely unrealized it will turn out to be.

I love that this sentence doesn't include the words "hot", "beautiful", "pretty", nor any other word describing or alluding to physical attractiveness. Let that be a lesson to you ladies - looks aren't everything. :)

Though, when you get right down to it - it wasn't beyond Mr. RJ to quantify the aesthetic qualities of any of his female characters, so perhaps I'm full of crap.

Back on topic, Min seems to literally be the only one that can keep Rand anywhere near sane and "down to earth" (for lack of a better term). If it weren't for her calming, benevolently positive influence upon him, I think the Light would have very little, if anything, going for it.

Zombie Sammael
07-11-2011, 05:12 PM
Though, when you get right down to it - it wasn't beyond Mr. RJ to quantify the aesthetic qualities of any of his female characters, so perhaps I'm full of crap.

To be fair to RJ, he draws the physical characteristics of his male characters to attnetion a lot as well. Rand's most notable feature is that he's tall and has red hair, in the early books; Perrin's is being big and thoughtful. There isn't a Galad chapter where somebody doesn't fancy him I don't think.

Davian93
07-12-2011, 08:10 AM
Let that be a lesson to you ladies - looks aren't everything.

On a quick non-wot tangent (I can do that), looks are nice...VERY NICE :D but they definitely aren't everything and MOST DEFINITELY are not the only thing. Afterall, unless you're a male and age gracefully (quite unfair that gray hairs & wrinkles are not a bad thing for men on occasion), we all get old, we all lose our youthful charms. I have crows feet around my eyes now (I'm 29 freaking years old with crows feet). My magnificantly beautiful goddess of a fiance has like zero wrinkles and if you had to guess her age, you'd probably guess 23-24...she's 32. I haven't gotten carded in years while she still gets carded regularly. Most people think I look around 25-26 which I take happily...but she's 3 years older and looks 4 years younger (Guessing its the Indian (Native american kind) genes or something.) So where was I? Oh yes, we all get old, we all get wrinkly and gravity eventually wins. Thus, our partner better be interesting and we better have good personalities and like talkign to each other or the relationship doesnt work. We've been together for 7 years now and we finish each others sentences because we spend way way too much time together and we're both major dorks. I'm talking MAJOR DORKS...its fun being a nerd when you're older. In HS? NOt as much but once you hit 20, you dont give a damn about such stupid labels and you revel in your nerdiness.

Why yes, I do ramble on occasion. I think my point was about it not being about looks.

Me, if I had to choose any female in the books, it'd probably be Faile or Nynaeve...they're the closest in personality to my fiancee. It might sound like an awful combination to some but I rather like it.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-12-2011, 08:22 AM
I love that this sentence doesn't include the words "hot", "beautiful", "pretty", nor any other word describing or alluding to physical attractiveness. Let that be a lesson to you ladies - looks aren't everything. :)

wait, what?



aaaaanyways, beauty is highly subjective. to continue on from Dav's ramble, Min is the kind of character that's good to simply have around, she's a genuinely nice, smart person. Although from what I've read so far, Rand benefits quite a bit more from this particular relationship than Min does. Then again, the books don't show EVERYTHING so...

Ishara
07-12-2011, 11:53 AM
I feel like David hit it on the nail for me:

And she had to have another role in the beside giving us something to speculate about with the visions, and being Rand's lover.

She feels a bit deus ex machina to me sometimes. And I can't help but feel that what went down in aMoL did not exonerate all possibilities of Evil Min.

Crispin's Crispian
07-12-2011, 12:29 PM
I think Min is hot because RJ described her so in the books.

Plus she wears form-fitting pants. In a world of flowery silk or stout wool dresses, breeches on a woman are a welcome change. And she's apparently in decent enough shape to wear them.

As for whether the Shadow knows about Min's talent, I'm quite sure they do. She spent a lot of time in the Tower, and the Aes Sedai knew about it. If the Aes Sedai knew about it and it was fairly remarkable, you can bet the Black Ajah shared it with the Forsaken bosses.

There's very little in Min's character development that seems forced or contrived. She's actually a little refreshing because there haven't been any huge jumps in status, power, or knowledge. She's taken it upon herself to learn what Fel was studying, and to use it to Rand's advantage. She knew she would fall in love with Rand early on, but she didn't force it.

Finally, Rand is going to die, so her un-slowed aging won't be an issue. Sure, he's going to come back, but not as a mortal to live in the world. Or maybe he will, and he'll pull an Arwen and somehow choose a mortal life.

sleepinghour
07-12-2011, 12:35 PM
She feels a bit deus ex machina to me sometimes.

I don't mind Min's visions, but I think her character often comes across as one-dimensional. She has no loyalties to anybody or anything other than Rand, no dreams or goals that don't involve him. She never thinks about her parents—we don't know their names or what they died of—and rarely thinks about her three aunts, only when various things they said about men might apply to Rand, never that she misses them or worries about them.

It's not surprising that Min is the only one of Rand's lovers that hasn't accepted that he'll probably die; she's built her entire life around him. If you take Rand away, who is Min?

the_collective
07-12-2011, 01:29 PM
Me, if I had to choose any female in the books, it'd probably be Faile or Nynaeve...they're the closest in personality to my fiancee. It might sound like an awful combination to some but I rather like it.

As my last comment on the subject (I realize I'm detracting from the time dedicated to Ms. Elmindreda Farshaw, whom I love and respect quite a bit, but won't be mentioning further), I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said Dav - especially this last part. My own favorite lady is most like Faile, I'd say, and she and Nynaeve are by far my two favorite ladies in the whole series. I don't understand all the Faile-hate that goes on 'round here. To me, nothing beats a smart, sociable, self-sufficient, feisty, beautiful lady on your arm. Nothing.

Crispin's Crispian
07-12-2011, 02:30 PM
As my last comment on the subject (I realize I'm detracting from the time dedicated to Ms. Elmindreda Farshaw, whom I love and respect quite a bit, but won't be mentioning further), I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said Dav - especially this last part. My own favorite lady is most like Faile, I'd say, and she and Nynaeve are by far my two favorite ladies in the whole series. I don't understand all the Faile-hate that goes on 'round here. To me, nothing beats a smart, sociable, self-sufficient, feisty, beautiful lady on your arm. Nothing.
What if she's holding a plate of bacon and a six-pack? Eh? What then?

nameless
07-12-2011, 03:53 PM
Isn't that part of what it means to be feisty and sociable?

the_collective
07-12-2011, 04:30 PM
Isn't that part of what it means to be feisty and sociable?

I honestly couldn't come up with my own retort for that (props to you, Crispin's Caspian), but I'll second this one. It's true...

Ishara
07-14-2011, 11:49 AM
The damn yuku hamsters ate:

Min is a Darkfriend?

Min's sleeping second personality

AND

The Evil Min Theory.

They also at the Great Debate re: Min.

Am sad.

JOS
07-14-2011, 05:40 PM
She probably doesn't have a reflection. Fades don't either, I think.

Come now, how does she apply that fancy make-up without a mirror?

Marie Curie 7
07-14-2011, 10:56 PM
The damn yuku hamsters ate:

Min is a Darkfriend?

Min's sleeping second personality

AND

The Evil Min Theory.

They also at the Great Debate re: Min.

Am sad.

It's the EZboard stuff that's lost, so it's probably not really the fault of the Yuku hamsters this time. The links back to EZboard threads don't work any more.

GonzoTheGreat
07-15-2011, 04:25 AM
Come now, how does she apply that fancy make-up without a mirror?That's why it took her so long to learn when Leane was teaching her. You don't think they were lugging a full sized mirror with them when they fled Tar Valon, do you? Then again, Siuan may have made Logain carry the thing.

Ishara
07-15-2011, 08:23 AM
It's the EZboard stuff that's lost, so it's probably not really the fault of the Yuku hamsters this time. The links back to EZboard threads don't work any more.
Strangely, that doesn't make me feel better. LOL Stupid hamsters.

Marie Curie 7
07-15-2011, 11:56 AM
Strangely, that doesn't make me feel better. LOL Stupid hamsters.

Oh, it doesn't make me feel better either - just wanted to clarify the source of the problem. I used to love to browse through the theory database that adbf maintained, and it's sad to look at it now because so many of the links to great theories and discussions are dead. :(

JOS
07-15-2011, 03:46 PM
That's why it took her so long to learn when Leane was teaching her. You don't think they were lugging a full sized mirror with them when they fled Tar Valon, do you? Then again, Siuan may have made Logain carry the thing.

I found this little jewel showing that Min had a mirror while traveling:

The Fires of Heaven, Fanning the Sparks
Digging into Min's saddlebags, Leane pulled out the wooden box of paints, and powders and whatnots that Laras had forced on Min before they set out. Min had kept meaning to throw it away, but somehow she had never gotten around to it. There was a small mirror inside the hinged lid of the box, and in moments Leane was at work on her face with small rabbit-fur brushes..

Though, Siuan would have made Logain carry one if she had thought of it.

I also found an instance where Min sees her reflection:

A Crown of Swords, Into the Woods
"She won't know, Min." He even had a twinkle in his eye! "I do this all the time, and they never know." He held out a gloved hand, expecting her to jump when he called. There really was nothing to do but straighten her green coat, glance into the stand-mirror to make sure of her hair—and take his hand.

JOS
07-15-2011, 04:38 PM
Yeah, Min is certainly unique in so many ways. Right now the biggest question in mind is why the shadow hasn't tried to "off" her. I mean her insight is certainly dangerous.

Someone important wants her dead, and wants it quiet:

Luc to an unidentified Forsaken, Winter's Heart, Out of Thin Air
"The pair sleeping in this room will sleep forever," Luc said, "but the man was bald, the woman gray."
"A pity," the man said, and the voice seemed to melt in Luc's ears. He would not be able to recognize it if he heard it without the disguise. The man had to be one of the Chosen. Few save the Chosen knew how to reach him, and none of the men among those few could channel, or would have dared trying to command him. His services were always begged, except by the Great Lord himself, and more recently by the Chosen, but none of the Chosen Luc had met had ever taken such precautions as this.
"Do you want me to try again?" Luc asked.
"Perhaps. When I tell you. Not before. Remember, not a word of this to anyone."
"As you command," Luc replied, bowing, but the man was already making a gateway, a hole that opened into a snowy forest glade. He was gone before Luc straightened.
It really was a pity. He had rather looked forward to killing his nephew and the wench. But if there was time to pass, hunting was always a pleasure.


If this "hit" had been successful, said nephew (Rand) would be toast and Moridin would be pissed. The attack seemed specific to include both Min and Rand, leading me to believe that the Forsaken directing the attack may have thought Rand would survive, so this attack could have been especially directed toward Min, with a calculated risk of getting them both and losing Luc to Rand's Sword.

Kimon
07-15-2011, 05:30 PM
Someone important wants her dead, and wants it quiet:

Luc to an unidentified Forsaken, Winter's Heart, Out of Thin Air
"The pair sleeping in this room will sleep forever," Luc said, "but the man was bald, the woman gray."
"A pity," the man said, and the voice seemed to melt in Luc's ears. He would not be able to recognize it if he heard it without the disguise. The man had to be one of the Chosen. Few save the Chosen knew how to reach him, and none of the men among those few could channel, or would have dared trying to command him. His services were always begged, except by the Great Lord himself, and more recently by the Chosen, but none of the Chosen Luc had met had ever taken such precautions as this.
"Do you want me to try again?" Luc asked.
"Perhaps. When I tell you. Not before. Remember, not a word of this to anyone."
"As you command," Luc replied, bowing, but the man was already making a gateway, a hole that opened into a snowy forest glade. He was gone before Luc straightened.
It really was a pity. He had rather looked forward to killing his nephew and the wench. But if there was time to pass, hunting was always a pleasure.


If this "hit" had been successful, said nephew (Rand) would be toast and Moridin would be pissed. The attack seemed specific to include both Min and Rand, leading me to believe that the Forsaken directing the attack may have thought Rand would survive, so this attack could have been especially directed toward Min, with a calculated risk of getting them both and losing Luc to Rand's Sword.

There need be no reason to read that passage as indicating more than that his handler had informed him of Min's likely presence alongside the target, Rand, and that he had been given her description. There's no reason to assume that her death was targeted here, or even treated as a matter of importance. It's the female Forsaken who seem to take more interest in Min (e.g. Semirhage and Graendal), thinking of her death as potential for inflicting psychological trauma for Rand.

Frankly, I'm surprised that Cyndane hasn't done something nasty to Min...

nameless
07-15-2011, 05:36 PM
If this "hit" had been successful, said nephew (Rand) would be toast and Moridin would be pissed. The attack seemed specific to include both Min and Rand, leading me to believe that the Forsaken directing the attack may have thought Rand would survive, so this attack could have been especially directed toward Min, with a calculated risk of getting them both and losing Luc to Rand's Sword.

You might be overthinking this one. I've always believed that Slayer's contract on Rand was put out by Aran'gar, who we know was planning to disregard the "don't kill Rand" order despite Moridin.

the_collective
07-15-2011, 06:57 PM
I've always believed that Slayer's contract on Rand was put out by Aran'gar, who we know was planning to disregard the "don't kill Rand" order despite Moridin.

This would certainly make sense for why the individual felt the need to disguise himself/herself.

Aran'gar hardly had the same face that Slayer might have recognized as one of the Chosen (I must assume that Slayer does not, in fact, 'feel' the mark that the Chosen bear in the same way that Shadowspawn do; you'd think that if he could feel such, he'd have mentioned it here; or at least not have bothered speculating about the person's status as Chosen/non-Chosen), giving at least a possible reason for the disguise.

For that matter Osan'gar is just as suspect for the same reason. I mean he did just fail at attempting to kill Rand himself mere days (weeks?) prior (against Moridin's orders, no less).

I would expect Moridin himself to be known to Slayer on sight - even in his current body, considering his close relationship with Slayer over the years, and therefore exempt to this train of thought (and that's not even counting any other potential reason).

Is there anyone here that thinks it was someone other than the chosen? i.e. Taim (assuming he isn't a Chosen, of course), or perhaps one of the more ambitious of the Black Ajah/Black Berets (the Guardians of the Shadow; see: Asha'man - and yes, I just made that up; feel free to trash it, if you fancy)?

Kimon
07-15-2011, 07:22 PM
This would certainly make sense for why the individual felt the need to disguise himself/herself.

Aran'gar hardly had the same face that Slayer might have recognized as one of the Chosen (I must assume that Slayer does not, in fact, 'feel' the mark that the Chosen bear in the same way that Shadowspawn do; you'd think that if he could feel such, he'd have mentioned it here; or at least not have bothered speculating about the person's status as Chosen/non-Chosen), giving at least a possible reason for the disguise.

For that matter Osan'gar is just as suspect for the same reason. I mean he did just fail at attempting to kill Rand himself mere days (weeks?) prior (against Moridin's orders, no less).

I would expect Moridin himself to be known to Slayer on sight - even in his current body, considering his close relationship with Slayer over the years, and therefore exempt to this train of thought (and that's not even counting any other potential reason).

Is there anyone here that thinks it was someone other than the chosen? i.e. Taim (assuming he isn't a Chosen, of course), or perhaps one of the more ambitious of the Black Ajah/Black Berets (the Guardians of the Shadow; see: Asha'man - and yes, I just made that up; feel free to trash it, if you fancy)?

The only problem with Aran'gar is the fact that Isam, while he doesn't get a good look at him, is convinced that it is a man. He does hear the voice, even if it is slightly altered - the melting effect that he mentions. If it is Aran'gar, that is rather difficult to overlook. Osan'gar still seems a good candidate, however, and this modus operandi honestly seems more fitting for him than for Demandred. The concealment would make sense for either however, as Moridin had made clear that he didn't want Rand dead, so they would both have good reason to not want Isam to potentially report back that they were still trying to finish the job. That still leaves the other issuer of the assassination command, but would Taim really know how to find Isam?

The man had to be one of the Chosen. Few save the Chosen knew how to reach him, and none of those men among those few could channel, or would have dared to trying to command him. His services were always begged, except by the Great Lord himself, or more recently by the Chosen...

Of course, many have wondered whether this might not merely be another hint that Taim is amongst the ranks of the Chosen. Nonetheless, his services here clearly are not being begged, thus it cannot be anyone lower than Chosen status. It might be Aran'gar, but I still think that Osan'gar, Demandred, and Taim (if he is Chosen, which is still a big if, even if he does seem much more impressive than any of the Chosen besides the Nae'blis) make more sense.

the_collective
07-18-2011, 05:07 PM
Of course, many have wondered whether this might not merely be another hint that Taim is amongst the ranks of the Chosen.

On the contrary, I read this as a possible (perhaps even likely) hint from RJ that the individual in question is in fact someone other than any of the Chosen.

Whenever a character thinks something (read: makes an assumption) to themselves in this series, generally one of two things happens: either they are in fact correct in their assumption, but they completely dismiss the idea (i.e. decide that they're incorrect afterall) and mentally move on to the next subject, OR their assumption is in fact incorrect, but they don't realize this to be the case (i.e. they continue to assume they're correct about the idea).

Obviously this doesn't happen every time, but it happens often enough to call this PoV into question. I would not at all be surprised to find that someone other than one of the Chosen is the person standing in front of Slayer here.

The only facts that we know for sure for about the identity of the person in question are that he/she:

a) can channel.
b) can channel strongly enough to make a gateway.
c) can weave disguise audial/visual webs.
d) retreated through the gateway to an out-of-doors snowy area.
e) knows how to contact Slayer.
f) knows Slayer will obey him/her so long as he/she can convince Slayer that he/she is Chosen.

On the "Moridin said NO DRAGON KILLING" tip, I thought that by this point in Winter's Heart, he had in fact given the OK to kill Rand if absolutely necessary in order to stop him from cleansing the Taint. I thought this to be certainly true during the "Battle of Shadar Logoth" (as it were), even if the OK was later repealed (after the "damage" had been done to the Taint). So, if this is/was the case, none of the Chosen (with the possible exception of the transmogrified 'gars) would have specific reason to disguise themselves from Slayer, making Taim even more likely (assuming he isn't Chosen himself) as the employer here.

Kimon
07-18-2011, 05:43 PM
On the "Moridin said NO DRAGON KILLING" tip, I thought that by this point in Winter's Heart, he had in fact given the OK to kill Rand if absolutely necessary in order to stop him from cleansing the Taint. I thought this to be certainly true during the "Battle of Shadar Logoth" (as it were), even if the OK was later repealed (after the "damage" had been done to the Taint). So, if this is/was the case, none of the Chosen (with the possible exception of the transmogrified 'gars) would have specific reason to disguise themselves from Slayer, making Taim even more likely (assuming he isn't Chosen himself) as the employer here.

Correct. As of the WH's Chosen Social, killing Rand is still technically allowed, that authorization was rescinded at the Social in KoD. Taim makes a lot of sense as the master of Isam here, but the question remains of how he would have found Isam to have issued the orders. Isam seems to make clear that none of the asha'man know him. That should include the M'Hael, unless the M'Hael is Chosen. Taim does have good reason to conceal himself however. He, unlike the others, would have needed to take precautions to keep his allegiance hidden from Rand. Had Isam not only failed, but failed and been taken captive, he would not have wanted Isam to be able to reveal his identity.

the_collective
07-18-2011, 06:17 PM
Correct. As of the WH's Chosen Social, killing Rand is still technically allowed, that authorization was rescinded at the Social in KoD. Taim makes a lot of sense as the master of Isam here, but the question remains of how he would have found Isam to have issued the orders. Isam seems to make clear that none of the asha'man know him. That should include the M'Hael, unless the M'Hael is Chosen. Taim does have good reason to conceal himself however. He, unlike the others, would have needed to take precautions to keep his allegiance hidden from Rand. Had Isam not only failed, but failed and been taken captive, he would not have wanted Isam to be able to reveal his identity.

Thank you for this, Kimon. As further possible supporting evidence, isn't it possible that Taim was in a position to know that Rand would be in Far Madding (having presumably been in contact with the 4 'rebels' that were hiding out there) in order to give Slayer a reliable location (the specific inn & room in question) to strike in the first place?

It's been a very long time since I read WH, and it'll be many more months before I reach it in my current reread. I just wish I remembered these circumstances that we're talking about more clearly...

Crispin's Crispian
07-18-2011, 06:38 PM
I just reread the WH passage where Luc kills the sleeping couple. There's nothing to indicate that it took place in Far Madding. Actually, there's almost nothing indicating the location at all, except that it's nighttime. The patron makes a gateway a "snowy glade," so presumably there is enough light there to see. Maybe that tells us it is far away from the crime scene, maybe not?

Kimon
07-18-2011, 07:06 PM
I just reread the WH passage where Luc kills the sleeping couple. There's nothing to indicate that it took place in Far Madding. Actually, there's almost nothing indicating the location at all, except that it's nighttime. The patron makes a gateway a "snowy glade," so presumably there is enough light there to see. Maybe that tells us it is far away from the crime scene, maybe not?

The "snowy glade" was where the patron returned to, not where the unfortunate couple were killed. While there is nothing specific in the passage, the strong indication based on timing is that it must have been Far Madding. Rand had just returned and ordered everyone to pack and move to another inn. Then we have Isam killing the wrong sleepers. Presumably they were in the bed in Far Madding that otherwise would have been occupied that night by Rand and Min.

The only potential problem is the Guardian. It works in the Real World version of Far Madding, but would it work in the T'A'R version? The patron clearly meets with Isam in the same room (Luc states "The pair sleeping in this room will sleep forever..."), but in T'A'R. Should it be impossible to channel in T'A'R Far Madding?

@the_collective
Thank you for this, Kimon. As further possible supporting evidence, isn't it possible that Taim was in a position to know that Rand would be in Far Madding (having presumably been in contact with the 4 'rebels' that were hiding out there) in order to give Slayer a reliable location (the specific inn & room in question) to strike in the first place?

The trouble for the "patron" is not in finding Rand, he purposefully made an easy to follow trail to draw his enemies to Far Madding. The trouble is how the patron would find Isam. Not many know Isam, those who do typically are Chosen. Even Graendal had to be loaned Isam by Moridin, so clearly obtaining his services is rare, and having the audacity to give him orders even rarer. That said, Taim ordering Isam makes sense, even if he's not a Chosen. He's arrogant enough to pull that off. But if he's not Chosen, how would he have known him, let alone known how to find him to issue him orders. Many think that Taim might be Moridin's acolyte, perhaps even lackey, but it seems ridiculous to believe that Moridin would have loaned him Isam to kill Rand. Moridin seems barely tolerant of killing Rand at this point, but he doesn't want him dead, he just wants the Access Keys. If Moridin was behind Isam, even indirectly, he likely would have just used him as a thief, not as an assassin.

Crispin's Crispian
07-18-2011, 07:27 PM
The "snowy glade" was where the patron returned to, not where the unfortunate couple were killed.
Right. I meant that the snowy glade had enough light, maybe, so it wasn't nighttime...like it was where the murders took place.

While there is nothing specific in the passage, the strong indication based on timing is that it must have been Far Madding. Rand had just returned and ordered everyone to pack and move to another inn. Then we have Isam killing the wrong sleepers. Presumably they were in the bed in Far Madding that otherwise would have been occupied that night by Rand and Min.Maybe.



The only potential problem is the Guardian. It works in the Real World version of Far Madding, but would it work in the T'A'R version? The patron clearly meets with Isam in the same room (Luc states "The pair sleeping in this room will sleep forever..."), but in T'A'R. Should it be impossible to channel in T'A'R Far Madding?

I wonder about that, too. I guess it's possible that the patron made a gateway using Tel'aran'rhiod, instead of the One Power. Or that the Guardian doesn't actually work in Tel'aran'rhiod.


The trouble for the "patron" is not in finding Rand, he purposefully made an easy to follow trail to draw his enemies to Far Madding. The trouble is how the patron would find Isam. Not many know Isam, those who do typically are Chosen. Even Graendal had to be loaned Isam by Moridin, so clearly obtaining his services is rare, and having the audacity to give him orders even rarer. That said, Taim ordering Isam makes sense, even if he's not a Chosen. He's arrogant enough to pull that off. But if he's not Chosen, how would he have known him, let alone known how to find him to issue him orders. Many think that Taim might be Moridin's acolyte, perhaps even lackey, but it seems ridiculous to believe that Moridin would have loaned him Isam to kill Rand. Moridin seems barely tolerant of killing Rand at this point, but he doesn't want him dead, he just wants the Access Keys. If Moridin was behind Isam, even indirectly, he likely would have just used him as a thief, not as an assassin.
Moridin probably assumes Rand has the Keys heavily warded, and it would be suicide for Slayer to steal them. Otherwise...why didn't he think of this several books ago?

The first time I read that passage, I assumed the Patron was a woman, just for the irony. I don't know who, though. Graendal is the only one that comes to mind, but it doesn't jive with her knowledge and use of Isam in the later books.

The Unreasoner
07-18-2011, 07:29 PM
Aran'gar doesn't 'jive'?
If anyone knows how to disguise herself as a man...

Crispin's Crispian
07-18-2011, 07:41 PM
I guess, but there's no strong motive for her to want to kill Rand specifically. She doesn't have the hatred, nor has she ever really shown any particular ambition that sets her apart.

I bet she can do a mean hand jive, though.

Kimon
07-18-2011, 07:41 PM
Moridin probably assumes Rand has the Keys heavily warded, and it would be suicide for Slayer to steal them. Otherwise...why didn't he think of this several books ago?



Usually, yes, but in Far Madding? He buried Callandor outside the barrier, but he seemingly brought the keys in with him.

The Unreasoner
07-18-2011, 07:47 PM
Usually, yes, but in Far Madding? He buried Callandor outside the barrier, but he seemingly brought the keys in with him.

I think at this point in the story morridin is overestimating rand's intelligence. while slayer could have been a perfect far madding thief, the fact that he wasn't used indicates that morridin doubted the hypothetical success, and likely assumed he hid them as he did callandor, or similarly.

Crispin's Crispian
07-18-2011, 07:53 PM
Usually, yes, but in Far Madding? He buried Callandor outside the barrier, but he seemingly brought the keys in with him.
Good point. I keep forgetting about that pesky Guardian.

Weiramon
07-19-2011, 01:29 PM
Usually, yes, but in Far Madding? He buried Callandor outside the barrier, but he seemingly brought the keys in with him.

Burn me, carrying around statues is beneath any Lord, let alone the Lord Dragon. Better to hand off the keys to a trusted servant. He seems to trust that al'Meara woman.

ArtK
07-19-2011, 07:07 PM
This seemed obvious to me when I first read it. Osan'Gar was there in Cairhein along with the terrible foursome. All had presumably been ordered by Taim to kill Rand.

But the foursome went right into Far Madding because they had no choice when ordered (by both Taim and Demondred). Osan'Gar wasn't about to put himself at risk subject to the Guardian. (I concluded from this passagae that the guardian didn't work in Tel'aran'rhiod.) Being one of the chosen, he had access to Isam. Being under the strictest orders to keep his return to "life" a secret, he had no intention of allowing even Isam to know who he was.

Note that he showed up at the Cleansing, and tried to Balefire Rand.

The Unreasoner
07-19-2011, 07:16 PM
This seemed obvious to me when I first read it. Osan'Gar was there in Cairhein along with the terrible foursome. All had presumably been ordered by Taim to kill Rand.

But the foursome went right into Far Madding because they had no choice when ordered (by both Taim and Demondred). Osan'Gar wasn't about to put himself at risk subject to the Guardian. (I concluded from this passagae that the guardian didn't work in Tel'aran'rhiod.) Being one of the chosen, he had access to Isam. Being under the strictest orders to keep his return to "life" a secret, he had no intention of allowing even Isam to know who he was.

Note that he showed up at the Cleansing, and tried to Balefire Rand.

Huh. I like. Nice symmetry too. And if it's osan'gar, aran'gar could still be aware, so her comment still could play.

Kimon
07-19-2011, 07:31 PM
This seemed obvious to me when I first read it. Osan'Gar was there in Cairhein along with the terrible foursome. All had presumably been ordered by Taim to kill Rand.

But the foursome went right into Far Madding because they had no choice when ordered (by both Taim and Demondred). Osan'Gar wasn't about to put himself at risk subject to the Guardian. (I concluded from this passagae that the guardian didn't work in Tel'aran'rhiod.) Being one of the chosen, he had access to Isam. Being under the strictest orders to keep his return to "life" a secret, he had no intention of allowing even Isam to know who he was.

Note that he showed up at the Cleansing, and tried to Balefire Rand.

Dashiva is a likely suspect, but not necessarily any more so than Taim. I do think that they do both make more sense than Aran'gar or Demandred, everyone else seems implausible. But a few things - Taim did not order Dashiva's involvement, he was surprised when Rand mentioned him. Dashiva didn't go with the other hitmen to Far Madding, Kisman mentioned in his POV that he didn't know what had happened to him. It's also clear that Kisman was unaware who Dashiva really was. He doesn't include him amongst the list (Taim, Demandred, and Moridin) of the men who issued them orders.

Dashiva certainly would not have wished to risk facing Rand in Far Madding. He isn't particularly brave even when he can use saidin (take note of his POV during the Cleansing), clearly he isn't fool enough to face Rand somewhere where saidin would be useless. So hiring Isam to do his dirty work makes quite a bit of sense. But why bother concealing his identity? For Taim this makes sense, less so for everyone else.

ArtK
07-19-2011, 07:42 PM
Taim did not order Dashiva's involvement, he was surprised when Rand mentioned him.

Right, I'd forgotten that. But the DO did, IMO

Dashiva didn't go with the other hitmen to Far Madding, Kisman mentioned in his POV that he didn't know what had happened to him. It's also clear that Kisman was unaware who Dashiva really was. He doesn't include him amongst the list (Taim, Demandred, and Moridin) of the men who issued them orders.

Which is part of the reason he concealed his identity. (See my earlier post.)

... why bother concealing his identity? For Taim this makes sense, less so for everyone else.

Because he was under orders to keep his very existence a secret. The fact that he'd been returned to life was not something even Isam was allowed to know.

greatwolf
07-19-2011, 09:04 PM
Another Q: Would Min "see" more if she were in TAR? Perrin sees things while he is there and the place is said to encompass all possibilities. Maybe Min will see a lot of "ifs" there. well.;)

The Unreasoner
07-19-2011, 09:22 PM
Maybe she could see more, but I don't know if she will necessarily be able to understand more.

There is also fewer people to read there.

Kimon
07-19-2011, 09:37 PM
Right, I'd forgotten that. But the DO did, IMO



Which is part of the reason he concealed his identity. (See my earlier post.)



Because he was under orders to keep his very existence a secret. The fact that he'd been returned to life was not something even Isam was allowed to know.

What is giving you the impression that he is under orders to not reveal his identity to other DFs? Taim may or may not know who he is, but he obviously knew he was someone special, hence his elevation to full asha'man, but that he remained outside of his direct control, hence his annoyance when Rand selected him. Taim thus, even if he didn't know who he was, knew he was important, and a DF. The other Chosen all clearly know who he is, and who he was. There is none of the same uncertainty as some of them had with Cyndane, which has allowed for some strange theories - see Felix. Concerning his resurrected comrade, Aran'gar, she/he met with high ranking DFs (Delana and Sheriam) and made clear to them that she was Chosen, showed them her face, and gave them orders. She didn't bother telling them who she had been presumably, but why bother. Would Osan'gar have had any need to have operated otherwise with Isam?

True, when Shaidar Haran first visited them upon their recycling he said this:

"Then it is time for you to go out into the world once more in the service of the Great Lord," Shaidar Haran said. "None but I and the Great Lord know you live. If you succeed, you will live forever and be raised above all others. if you fail.... But you will not fail, will you?"

But neither seem to take his comment to mean that they have to maintain a low profile and not meet with other Chosen, or DFs, or reveal their new names and faces. They both take part in the Chosen Socials, they both interact with other DFs, making clear to those DFs that they are bad guys. Dashiva seems to keep a lower profile than Aran'gar, he does not, for instance, seem to give his fellow assassins any name but Dashiva, nor give them any hint that he is Chosen, but they are just stupid expendible grunts. I see no reason why he would feel it verboten to show Isam his face. Taim has need to cover his tracks, since he is still, as far as Rand knew, not a bad guy. So for him, the concealment makes more sense. Rand saw Dashiva after the attack, so he can't hide his involvement from Rand, so Isam seeing his face isn't really a problem for him.

ArtK
07-19-2011, 10:41 PM
But neither seem to take his comment to mean that they have to maintain a low profile and not meet with other Chosen, or DFs, or reveal their new names and faces. They both take part in the Chosen Socials, they both interact with other DFs, making clear to those DFs that they are bad guys. Dashiva seems to keep a lower profile than Aran'gar, he does not, for instance, seem to give his fellow assassins any name but Dashiva, nor give them any hint that he is Chosen, but they are just stupid expendible grunts. I see no reason why he would feel it verboten to show Isam his face. Taim has need to cover his tracks, since he is still, as far as Rand knew, not a bad guy. So for him, the concealment makes more sense. Rand saw Dashiva after the attack, so he can't hide his involvement from Rand, so Isam seeing his face isn't really a problem for him.
As your quote shows, they were both under orders to keep the fact of their return to life a secret. Aran'Gar was probably pushing pretty hard, letting her DF minions know she was chosen, but as long as they didn't suspect she was channeling Saidin they wouldn't have supposed she was a returnee. This matches Balthamel's prior personality. (Reckless and careless.)

Osan'Gar was much more cautious, matching Aginor's personality. IMO he was much more careful about following orders. It's also possible he was going somewhat over the line as far as trying to get Rand killed. The most important thing is he had the right to order Isam, since he was Chosen.

As far as we know, Taim didn't, although there are those interesting extra two chairs. (For Taim and Alviarin?) But I don't believe the masked Chosen had anything to fear regarding Rand discovering him/her. Rand doesn't go into T'A'R any more. And if Taim were exercising his rights as Chosen, why should he find it necessary to hide from Isam?

Kimon
07-19-2011, 11:06 PM
As your quote shows, they were both under orders to keep the fact of their return to life a secret. Aran'Gar was probably pushing pretty hard, letting her DF minions know she was chosen, but as long as they didn't suspect she was channeling Saidin they wouldn't have supposed she was a returnee. This matches Balthamel's prior personality. (Reckless and careless.)

Osan'Gar was much more cautious, matching Aginor's personality. IMO he was much more careful about following orders. It's also possible he was going somewhat over the line as far as trying to get Rand killed. The most important thing is he had the right to order Isam, since he was Chosen.

As far as we know, Taim didn't, although there are those interesting extra two chairs. (For Taim and Alviarin?) But I don't believe the masked Chosen had anything to fear regarding Rand discovering him/her. Rand doesn't go into T'A'R any more. And if Taim were exercising his rights as Chosen, why should he find it necessary to hide from Isam?

You may be correct, but I still think that SH's comment only meant that none of the others yet know that they had been recycled, not that it was to remain a secret.

As for the difference between Osan'gar and Aran'gar regarding the transparency of their operations, keep in mind that they had rather different missions, and quite different goals, but also different personalities. Aran'gar needed an excuse to get in, so she had to reveal herself to Delana, first so that she could get into Salidar, and then so that she could get close to Egwene. Then, she needed to reveal herself to Sheriam so that she could use her as another source both for information and for manipulating events. Osan'gar had no need to reveal himself to anyone except possibly Taim, so that he could initially infiltrate the asha'man ranks. But then Rand handpicked him, and he was then in Rand's inner circle. He had no reason to reach out to other DFs again until Rand freaked him out during the Seanchan campaign with his rambling about plans to cleanse the source. That's when he reached out to Taim's lackeys. For some reason he chose not to reveal who he really was, nor to take direct command over them, but that need not be read as evidence that he was forbidden to do so, only that he chose not to do so. Granted, that characteristic caution could be used as supportive evidence for why he might be similarly cautious with Isam.

Concerning Taim, his reason for caution (which I discussed in earlier posts in this thead...) would be different, but not non-existent. With him, it would be caution born from a desire to limit the traces of his involvement should Isam fail and be taken captive by the Dragon. One might argue that the potential for disclosure was already present, since Kisman and his comrades already knew of Taim's involvement, and direction, and could, under duress, reveal as such to Al'Thor. Yet, Taim had already compensated for that eventuality by personally travelling to Cairhien to inform, and warn, Rand of their desertion. He thus had plausible deniability should they try to turn on him. Covering his tracks with Isam would avoid another possible means of blowing his cover.

Ishara
07-20-2011, 07:07 AM
As far as we know, Taim didn't, although there are those interesting extra two chairs. (For Taim and Alviarin?) But I don't believe the masked Chosen had anything to fear regarding Rand discovering him/her. Rand doesn't go into T'A'R any more. And if Taim were exercising his rights as Chosen, why should he find it necessary to hide from Isam?

I don't think Taim is Chosen, and I certainly don't think that the others would stand (or sit) for him sitting amongst them as an equal. He's simply not. And Alviarin is akin to a pet dog to them. Useful, serving a purpose perhaps, but nowhere on par with them. They'd laugh to see her at that meeting. And then kill her.

ArtK
07-20-2011, 03:04 PM
I don't think Taim is Chosen, and I certainly don't think that the others would stand (or sit) for him sitting amongst them as an equal. He's simply not. And Alviarin is akin to a pet dog to them. Useful, serving a purpose perhaps, but nowhere on par with them. They'd laugh to see her at that meeting. And then kill her.
Well, if he's not, I doubt he would have been able to command Isam. But I'm not so sure. I recall a discussion a while back about Taim, where I suggested that Be'lal had been replaced into Taim's body. (After a subtle game wherein Ishamael killed him using the TP when he realized Moiraine was about to balefire him.)

As for Alviarin, she was recently "marked" by SH, something more than what a normal DF gets, and this might actually have been the mark of the chosen. AFAIK this info isn't available, unless there was a Q&A I'm not aware of.

Zombie Sammael
07-20-2011, 03:21 PM
As for Alviarin, she was recently "marked" by SH, something more than what a normal DF gets, and this might actually have been the mark of the chosen. AFAIK this info isn't available, unless there was a Q&A I'm not aware of.

There is and it's not. It's basically like a halfway-mark, so she's not quite Chosen but more than Darkfriend (Dreadlord, perhaps?).

Kimon
07-20-2011, 03:44 PM
Well, if he's not, I doubt he would have been able to command Isam. But I'm not so sure. I recall a discussion a while back about Taim, where I suggested that Be'lal had been replaced into Taim's body. (After a subtle game wherein Ishamael killed him using the TP when he realized Moiraine was about to balefire him.)

As for Alviarin, she was recently "marked" by SH, something more than what a normal DF gets, and this might actually have been the mark of the chosen. AFAIK this info isn't available, unless there was a Q&A I'm not aware of.

Taim was active in recruiting men who could channel, probably already working for Moridin, prior to Be'lal's egress from the Bore, let alone to his demise. He is not Be'lal. Chronology alone should be enough to demonstrate that, but if not, there is also that vexing issue that Be'lal was erased from existence.

@ Zombie
I'm not sure we should even go so far as to call Alviarin's "mark" as a designation of demi-Chosen status. Pet might be more fitting.

Zombie Sammael
07-20-2011, 03:49 PM
@Kimon - I don't think there's much evidence either way, but I'm inclined to think that there might be gradations of the Dark Lord's favour - Darkfriend, Dreadlord, Chosen, possibly some more rankings in between. Alviarin is certainly more important than any non-Chosen DF alive today.

Kimon
07-20-2011, 04:05 PM
@Kimon - I don't think there's much evidence either way, but I'm inclined to think that there might be gradations of the Dark Lord's favour - Darkfriend, Dreadlord, Chosen, possibly some more rankings in between. Alviarin is certainly more important than any non-Chosen DF alive today.

I'll agree that there does seem to be evidence of gradations between random DF grunt and Chosen, but do you honestly set her above Slayer and Taim?

ArtK
07-20-2011, 04:45 PM
Taim was active in recruiting men who could channel, probably already working for Moridin, prior to Be'lal's egress from the Bore, let alone to his demise. He is not Be'lal. Chronology alone should be enough to demonstrate that, but if not, ...

Says who? Taim? Why should we believe him even if he isn't a darkfriend?

... there is also that vexing issue that Be'lal was erased from existence.

Well, I haven't found my previous discussion, so I'll repeat it. The scene is at the end of "Dragon Reborn", in the Heart of the Stone. Be'lal had a plan to kill the Dragon Reborn and steal Callandor. Ishamael had very strong reasons to keep Rand alive, and probably no desire to see Callandor in Be'lal's hands. (And remember he was present, up in a dark corner IIRC.)

IMO Ishamael had set up a "trigger" using the TP so he could instantly kill Be'lal if he looked to kill Rand. When Moiraine started to weave Balefire, we hear Be'lal say "No!" just before it hits. Clearly, he and everybody else could sense it before it hit. (IMO Balefire can be sensed before it hits because of its ability to burn stuff out of the Pattern before it's fired.)

Ishamael used his TP "Trigger" to kill Be'lal before the Balefire hit. I see two possible explanations for this:

1. He was on such a hair trigger he responded to the "smell" of balefire too quickly to realize that it wasn't Be'lal who was weaving it.

2. He realized that if Be'lal was thought by everybody to have been killed by Balefire, he would constitute another useful "returnee" to another body, one that nobody would suspect.

Even if number 1 is the actual explanation, he would have realized after the fact that Be'lal would be a wonderful stalking horse, one he could use against the other Chosen.

(And yes, I realize that weakens my argument that Taim wouldn't have disguised himself in Far Madding. But I'm not really that sold on Be'lal as Taim, I just object to ruling it out. Unless you can point to a Q&A?)

@ Zombie
I'm not sure we should even go so far as to call Alviarin's "mark" as a designation of demi-Chosen status. Pet might be more fitting.

It might well put her on a par with the other "Chosen", and above those with mindtraps. It might be nothing but a minor upgrade of her DF status. Or anything in-between. All we know, AFAIK, is that she was protected from Mesaana's strong desire to kill her (unless she failed).

How about some RJ or BS quotes, or Q&A's?

Weiramon
07-20-2011, 05:07 PM
Burn my eyes, Taim is Taim!

And it's pronounced Ta-eem. Not Tame. Ta-eem.

JOS
07-20-2011, 05:44 PM
The scene is at the end of "Dragon Reborn", in the Heart of the Stone. Be'lal had a plan to kill the Dragon Reborn and steal Callandor. Ishamael had very strong reasons to keep Rand alive, and probably no desire to see Callandor in Be'lal's hands


Cool idea, I know we have a quote about Rahvin being beyond the DO's grasp due to balefire, but do we have one for Be'lal? Only the DO or Moridin (or RJ and co.) could absolutely confirm this.

nameless
07-20-2011, 06:17 PM
Wait, didn't Rand see the balefire stream connecting? Balefire-related temporal anomalies would trump anything Ishamael did because Be'lal would actually die several seconds before the balefire was generated in the first place.

Kimon
07-20-2011, 06:20 PM
Says who? Taim? Why should we believe him even if he isn't a darkfriend?



Well, I haven't found my previous discussion, so I'll repeat it. The scene is at the end of "Dragon Reborn", in the Heart of the Stone. Be'lal had a plan to kill the Dragon Reborn and steal Callandor. Ishamael had very strong reasons to keep Rand alive, and probably no desire to see Callandor in Be'lal's hands. (And remember he was present, up in a dark corner IIRC.)

IMO Ishamael had set up a "trigger" using the TP so he could instantly kill Be'lal if he looked to kill Rand. When Moiraine started to weave Balefire, we hear Be'lal say "No!" just before it hits. Clearly, he and everybody else could sense it before it hit. (IMO Balefire can be sensed before it hits because of its ability to burn stuff out of the Pattern before it's fired.)

Ishamael used his TP "Trigger" to kill Be'lal before the Balefire hit. I see two possible explanations for this:

1. He was on such a hair trigger he responded to the "smell" of balefire too quickly to realize that it wasn't Be'lal who was weaving it.

2. He realized that if Be'lal was thought by everybody to have been killed by Balefire, he would constitute another useful "returnee" to another body, one that nobody would suspect.

Even if number 1 is the actual explanation, he would have realized after the fact that Be'lal would be a wonderful stalking horse, one he could use against the other Chosen.

(And yes, I realize that weakens my argument that Taim wouldn't have disguised himself in Far Madding. But I'm not really that sold on Be'lal as Taim, I just object to ruling it out. Unless you can point to a Q&A?)



It might well put her on a par with the other "Chosen", and above those with mindtraps. It might be nothing but a minor upgrade of her DF status. Or anything in-between. All we know, AFAIK, is that she was protected from Mesaana's strong desire to kill her (unless she failed).

How about some RJ or BS quotes, or Q&A's?

So far as a quick check goes, no one thought to ask either of them if Taim was Be'lal. You could always track down BS at some book signing and do so, the answer will likely either be "no" or "what??" or "Felix?".

On a more serious note, think of it this way - if he's Be'lal, explain why he wasn't at the Chosen Socials. The other resurrected Chosen have been, why would Be'lal be brought back and not get an invite?

Here's the actual text:

There was an instant of surprise on the Forsaken's face, and he had time to scream "No!" Then a bar of white fire hotter than the sun shot from the Aes Sedai's hands, a glaring rod that banished all shadows. Before it, Be'lal became a shape of shimmering motes, specks dancing in the light for less than a heartbeat, flecks consumed before his cry faded.

Then Moiraine talks, tells Rand to stop hesitating and grab Callandor already, then Ishamael hits her. He did nothing to interfere while she erased Be'lal. He didn't have any trigger to magically save him.

Be'lal is gone. Taim is not Be'lal.

ArtK
07-20-2011, 06:21 PM
Wait, didn't Rand see the balefire stream connecting? Balefire-related temporal anomalies would trump anything Ishamael did because Be'lal would actually die several seconds before the balefire was generated in the first place.

Not if he was already dead and the BF just destroyed his body. Or would it? If his body vanished but he didn't die, would his "soul" have been there for Ishamael to kill?

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

ArtK
07-20-2011, 06:27 PM
On a more serious note, think of it this way - if he's Be'lal, explain why he wasn't at the Chosen Socials. The other resurrected Chosen have been, why would Be'lal be brought back and not get an invite?

I thought I just did... because he was a "hidden weapon" the DO was saving against an emergency. Assuming he was rescued from balefire at all, I suspect both the DO and Ishamael/Moridin would have wanted to keep his return from death a secret from the other Chosen.

The Unreasoner
07-20-2011, 08:40 PM
There is no winning with this guy.
Jordan said Alviarin's mark is not one of the chosen, and the mark (or at least the mark alone) does not make her a lesser chosen.

Be'lal even did the 'motes' trick with balefire.

Why not start a new thread to present your aruments? Not following how Min fits in.

FelixPax
07-20-2011, 11:40 PM
What does Be'lal have to do with Elmindreda Farshaw? :confused::confused::confused:



You could always track down BS at some book signing and do so, the answer will likely either be "no" or "what??" or "Felix?".

Huh? Do I read a question in the making?


On a more serious note, think of it this way - if he's Be'lal, explain why he wasn't at the Chosen Socials. The other resurrected Chosen have been, why would Be'lal be brought back and not get an invite?

Mierin is a Chosen, yet she did not get an invitation. Though Moridin's mindtrapped pet, Cyndane did make an appearance.


Chosen do not trust each other. Moridin does not like to give out information, either. Only time Moridin does, is if other events might effect his large plans.

Shaidar Haran kept Osan'gar and Aran'gar each a secret for some period time. Even Moridin kept his new identity & body a secret from the other Chosen, and Rand al'Thor for as long as possible.

If Be'lal is back again, in a new body... Moridin or Shaidar Haran could have put him on a secret task elsewhere.

Did someone needed to ferry Shadowspawn to the Blight? Be'lal the Netweaver of Ferries? :o

Ishara
07-21-2011, 01:46 PM
DUDE. If Felix is trying to get you back on topic, you have significant problems. Just sayin.' ;)