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New Futurist Man
07-11-2011, 06:50 AM
What was the nature of the weave Dashiva and co. wielded so destructively against the Sun Palace? There’s only one other occasion when a similar weave is used: at the assault on the outer wall of Maradon by the Shadow channelers.

This is Rand describing his experience of the attack by Dashiva, Gedwyn, Rochaid, Torval and Kisman on the Sun Palace in Cairhien:

“..there had been an oddity, as if the weaving came from different directions.”
A Cup of Sleep, The Path of Daggers [page 634]

The observation the attack - which, as far as Rand could fathom, seemed a huge fist of Air brought down upon his quarters in the Palace - came from ‘different directions’ suggests the weave required an unusual degree of technical proficiency.

We’ve seen other collective efforts by the Asha’man. The Dome formed by them at Taim’s order at Dumai’s Wells to keep the Shaido out, for instance; it required the contribution of many Asha’man. However in this case they were all close by. They could all see each other’s weaves, etc. We know, however, from this that Taim possesses knowledge of weaves such as these - weaves that don’t require linking but effect something similar.

However we also have possible evidence that the more technically difficult weave that seemed to synchronise the weaves of Dashiva, Gedwyn etc. is something not taught to those trained at the Black Tower - not even to full-fledged Asha’man.

Deepe Bhadar describing the Shadow’s channelers outside Maradon:

“‘They have channelers, Lord Ituralde,’ Deepe said. ‘I suspect at least six, perhaps more. Men, since I can feel the Power they’re wielding, doing something powerful.....[..].......They cannot continue to hold that kind of Power without...consequences.’”
Oddities, Towers of Midnight [page 444-445]

Although there is an obvious difference between this attack and that carried out by Dashiva and Gedwyn etc. during the attack on the Sun Palace, as here they were much closer together and could probably see each other’s weaves, the effect was pretty similar: one instant the roof/wall was there, the next it was gone!

Deepe could only describe what they were doing as “powerful”. He didn’t seem to have any knowledge that the weave was a weapon and not, for example, an especially large Gateway or something.
This is a weave that has been employed twice with deadly effect against the Light in this Age.

The Gholam POV close to the beginning of ‘Lord of Chaos’ gives some indication that it may have been a weave used regularly during the War of Power, a weave very much reduced in scope and strength in this Age:

‘The gholam seemed to remember something that made it itch in that manner, yet so much of what it recalled was fogged and dim. The world had changed, as it seemed, in the blink of an eye. There had been a world of war and killing on a huge scale, with weapons that reached across miles, across thousands of miles, and then there was...this.’
Unweaving, The Path of Daggers [page 83-84]

The idea these “weapons” were something resembling ballistic missiles or scaled up versions of Shocklances seems an unnecessary technological innovation. Arming non-channelers with Shocklances makes sense. But the War of Power was always that - a war with the Power, allowing the development of weapons that could one day usurp the seat of the ruling elite on both sides would have been a dangerous road to tread.
So these weapons that “reached across miles, across thousands of miles” may, in all likelihood, have been superior versions of the weaves which partially destroyed both the Sun Palace and Maradon, probably extended by the use of regular or specialised Ter’angreal, Angreal and Sa’angreal.

What’s significant, however, is that knowledge of this weave is a good marker that one has been taught by one versed in weaves that were used in the Ages of Legends.
The weave which tore a huge hole in the wall surrounding Maradon sounds similar to the weapon described by the Gholam. And that weave executed by Dashiva, Gedwyn, Rochaid and co. sounds a more technically difficult version of the same weave, where channelers spread out over significant distances are able to synchronize there weaves and attack a single target.

Knowledge of this weave on the part of Gedwyn and co. strongly suggests it was a weave taught either in Taim’s “private classes” considering Bhadar was in the dark regarding it, or was something Dashiva/Aginor or another Forsaken instructed Gedwyn and co. on just as someone had taught the channelers outside Maradon.

Kimon
07-11-2011, 11:39 AM
I think that you're over-analyzing the phrase, and focusing too much on that one word - oddity. A look at a bit more of the passage may offer a simpler explanation:

A fool thing, not wanting Min to see him stagger when someone tried to kill him, but there it was. Not just any someone. A man, Demandred, or perhaps Asmodean come back at last. Maybe both; there had been an oddity, as if they weaving came from different directions.

He is thinking at first that the assassin was but one man, likely a Forsaken, but then hedged that, and considered the possibility that it was more than one, since he sensed saidin multi-directionally rather than from but one source/direction. I don't think you need to read it as anything more than that. The oddity is likely just his wondering at the fact that he thinks that the weaves came from different directions, hence that he may be facing more than one adversary.

Jonai
07-11-2011, 12:06 PM
I tend to agree is Kimon on this one. As for the attack on the Sun Palace, in particular, I always got the impression that Gedwyn and Rochaid just did simplistic Hammer blow webs with as much saidin as they could draw. Rand only thinks it odd at first because the webs came from different directions, and initially he thought it was one man.

Davian93
07-11-2011, 12:23 PM
I tend to agree is Kimon on this one. As for the attack on the Sun Palace, in particular, I always got the impression that Gedwyn and Rochaid just did simplistic Hammer blow webs with as much saidin as they could draw. Rand only thinks it odd at first because the webs came from different directions, and initially he thought it was one man.

That is my thought as well. Its not that hard to collapse a stone building (with no reinforced concrete/rebarred steel support either) if you know what you're doing. Hitting it with massive hammers of Air in a couple different places will do the trick...the only thing that needs to be coordinated is hitting it at the same time and that's easy enough as you can see the other flows being weaved.

Maradon's attack seems far more complicated in comparison.

nameless
07-11-2011, 05:00 PM
I think the biggest reason people don't tie weaves off in the middle of a fight is that after you tie them, you can't change them anymore. So yeah, you can create a self-propelling fireball or hammer of Air or whatever, but you can't aim it after tying it off, so whoever you're trying to hit could just take one step to the left and render the whole exercise pointless. Besides which, your average combat weave doesn't need to exist for more than a few seconds, and it probably takes a second or two to tie the weave off in the first place. It's only things like shields or wards, which need to last for a decent amount of time, that benefit from being tied off.

edit: oops, wrong thread. This was supposed to go under "art of war."

New Futurist Man
07-11-2011, 09:16 PM
He is thinking at first that the assassin was but one man, likely a Forsaken, but then hedged that, and considered the possibility that it was more than one, since he sensed saidin multi-directionally rather than from but one source/direction. I don't think you need to read it as anything more than that. The oddity is likely just his wondering at the fact that he thinks that the weaves came from different directions, hence that he may be facing more than one adversary.

The "oddity" isn't that, as you say, he "thinks that the weaves came from different directions" - the oddity is that the weaves did come from different directions.

My whole point is that he sensed Saidin wielded from "different directions" concentrated into a weave that struck one point. In other words that the weave required sufficient skill in the Power and a certain level of training from those executing it to ensure success.

New Futurist Man
07-11-2011, 09:40 PM
..the only thing that needs to be coordinated is hitting it at the same time and that's easy enough as you can see the other flows being weaved.

Except the Asha'man were almost certainly out of sight of each other, thus they couldn't have seen each other's weaves.

Kimon
07-11-2011, 09:41 PM
The "oddity" isn't that, as you say, he "thinks that the weaves came from different directions" - the oddity is that the weaves did come from different directions.

My whole point is that he sensed Saidin wielded from "different directions" concentrated into a weave that struck one point. In other words that the weave required sufficient skill in the Power and a certain level of training from those executing it to ensure success.

Are you assuming that the individual weaves were concentrated into one weave, or interlaced somehow, based on the fact that he said "weaving" rather than "weaves" or "weavings"? There need be no necessity to assume as such. He doesn't indicate that he actually saw the individual weaves, only that "he had felt the channeling too late to do anything". I see no reason to require that there were not simply three separate weaves (Dashiva's, Gedwyn's, and Rochaid's), all of which he sensed, but did not necessarily, or even likely, see, but that he only felt. Thus they could have struck at different points, rather than at one.

New Futurist Man
07-11-2011, 09:52 PM
Its not that hard to collapse a stone building (with no reinforced concrete/rebarred steel support either) if you know what you're doing. Hitting it with massive hammers of Air in a couple different places will do the trick...

Two things:

1. Firstly the quote “..there had been an oddity, as if the weaving came from different directions” is fairly explicit the weaving was singular, i.e. seemed to emanate from different directions - but not be channeled by different channelers;

2. The motivating concept behind the attack on the Sun Palace was that if the Dragon retaliated he could only effectively attack one of them and not all - and the moment he did attack, the rest could pinpoint his location. I don't think the positioning of the Asha'man was to enable them vantage to form "massive hammers of Air" in order to destroy the palace - and I also don't think the plural "hammers" is correct. According to the Dragon's POV, the weaving was of a whole.

Kimon
07-11-2011, 10:05 PM
Two things:

1. Firstly the quote “..there had been an oddity, as if the weaving came from different directions” is fairly explicit the weaving was singular, i.e. seemed to emanate from different directions - but not be channeled by different channelers;

2. The motivating concept behind the attack on the Sun Palace was that if the Dragon retaliated he could only effectively attack one of them and not all - and the moment he did attack, the rest could pinpoint his location. I don't think the positioning of the Asha'man was to enable them vantage to form "massive hammers of Air" in order to destroy the palace - and I also don't think the plural "hammers" is correct. According to the Dragon's POV, the weaving was of a whole.

Weaving doesn't have to be singular. You could state, for instance, that his weaving struck the apartment, or that their weaving struck the apartment. Weaving could thus be either singular or plural. If he had said the weave, rather than the weaves, you would have a stronger case.

On your other point, which I had hitherto ignored, even though Jonai and Davian also mentioned, I don't think that we can even be so sure that they used hammers of Air, or at least not only Air. Rand doesn't mention which type of the Five Powers he sensed, nor if it was just one of the Five rather than some combination of threads, only that he sensed channeling. Moreover, Min's POV, that immediately proceeds Rand's commentary, adds this:

Massive piles of rubble lay everywhere, and above, the ceiling yawned open to the sky. Snow swirled down onto flames dancing among the rubble. One of the massive blackwood posts of his bed stuck burning out of shattered stone, and she realized that she could see all the way ouside to the stepped towers veiled by the snowfall. It was as if a huge hammer had smashed into the Sun Palace.

True, a hammer is mentioned, but if it was just a thread of Air, the room should have been smashed, not burning as well.

New Futurist Man
07-11-2011, 10:07 PM
I see no reason to require that there were not simply three separate weaves (Dashiva's, Gedwyn's, and Rochaid's), all of which he sensed, but did not necessarily, or even likely, see, but that he only felt. Thus they could have struck at different points, rather than at one.

I would contend that the Dragon should have sensed different channelers, and the fact he didn't suggests something special about the weave used against him.

Bhadar is able to articulate channeler numbers here:

“‘They have channelers, Lord Ituralde,’ Deepe said. ‘I suspect at least six, perhaps more. Men, since I can feel the Power they’re wielding, doing something powerful.....[..].......They cannot continue to hold that kind of Power without...consequences.’”
Oddities, Towers of Midnight [page 444-445]

It could be said 'but these were channeling for an extended period whereas the Dragon had only a split second before the hammers of Air struck'. But the reverse of that is that the channelers outside Maradon were concentrated in a much smaller area yet Bhadar was still able to roughly pick out there numbers and quantify the amount of Power they were handling.

*

In the case of Dashiva, Gedwyn and co. there's a possibility they were masking there ability to channel until the last moment and that's what threw the Dragon of.

Kimon
07-11-2011, 10:11 PM
I would contend that the Dragon should have sensed different channelers, and the fact he didn't suggests something special about the weave used against him.


For all essential purposes he did. He sensed that the channeling was coming from more than one direction, which, though he had only felt, but not seen it, led him to assume that he was facing more than one man.

New Futurist Man
07-11-2011, 10:37 PM
"A fool thing, not wanting Min to see him stagger when someone tried to kill him, but there it was. Not just any someone. A man, Demandred, or perhaps Asmodean come back at last. Maybe both; there had been an oddity, as if the weaving came from different directions."
A Cup of Sleep, The Path of Daggers [page 634]

If the attack consisted of weaves and not a weave - why couldn't he pick out exactly what the weaves were?

Considering he picked up the weave for Red Cables from Sammael mid-way through a battle for his very existence - why couldn't he pick out the different weaves supposedly directed at him by Dashiva and Gedwyn and co. which entirely missed anyway?

Whatever the weave was, and I'm not saying it was a hammer of Air, just likening it to that - it is unlikely to have been a fireball or anything. The over-riding impression is of an immense detonation - Min's idea of a "great hammer" is as good a similitude as any.

The simple explanation for the "flames dancing among the rubble" is the probable presence of candles, wicker lamps etc adorning the palace walls, the oil of which could easily have set ablaze curtains, carpets etc.

Kimon
07-11-2011, 11:03 PM
If the attack consisted of weaves and not a weave - why couldn't he pick out exactly what the weaves were?

Considering he picked up the weave for Red Cables from Sammael mid-way through a battle for his very existence - why couldn't he pick out the different weaves supposedly directed at him by Dashiva and Gedwyn and co. which entirely missed anyway?



Likely because he didn't have a chance to see the weaves. He was just outside the room, in the hallway, and the weaves struck behind him. Had he had time to stay and investigate, his apparent skill at reading residues presumably would have allowed him to detect what exactly had been used against him, but he obviously had more pressing concerns than playing CSI.

Whatever the weave was, and I'm not saying it was a hammer of Air, just likening it to that - it is unlikely to have been a fireball or anything. The over-riding impression is of an immense detonation - Min's idea of a "great hammer" is as good a similitude as any.

The simple explanation for the "flames dancing among the rubble" is the probable presence of candles, wicker lamps etc adorning the palace walls, the oil of which could easily have set ablaze curtains, carpets etc.

I think it likely a combination of at least Air and Fire, maybe combined with Earth as well, so as to strengthen and reinforce the weaves. So perhaps Hammers of Fire, rather than of Air. Min's POV seems to suggest too much fire damage in the room than could likely be explained simply by the Air spreading pre-existing fire sources within the room. It seems to make more sense that Fire formed part of the weaves.

Davian93
07-12-2011, 08:23 AM
Except the Asha'man were almost certainly out of sight of each other, thus they couldn't have seen each other's weaves.

Sure they could. Its a decent sized building but they were merely attacking different sides of one wing. They'd easily be able to feel each other building up the OP and then releasing it. You're making it far too complicated.

Davian93
07-12-2011, 08:27 AM
For all essential purposes he did. He sensed that the channeling was coming from more than one direction, which, though he had only felt, but not seen it, led him to assume that he was facing more than one man.

A couple points to support this:

1. Rand is not expecting an attack from multiple male channelers. He's used to fighting the Forsaken one at a time. Thus, he's surprised to feel attacks coming from different sides when he's mentally prepped for just one attacker.

2. Rand was inside the bldg, not outside. There's no way for him to have seen the actual weaving as it hit the outside of the bldg. All he could do was feel it hitting, not see the actual weaves as to whether they were interlaced or multiple weaves. Its the same as if he were blindfolded.

3. At Maradon, the Ashaman clearly has time to sense it and analyze the attack, Rand had less than a second as it was already hitting. Thus, there is far greater clarity and detail in the Maradon scene.

New Futurist Man
07-13-2011, 12:39 AM
You claim the Asha'man were able to "feel each other building up the OP and then releasing it."

then go onto claim:

"Rand had less than a second.." before the weave struck.

Surely its one or the other.

Either, 1: Dashiva, Gedwyn and co. took there time "building up the OP" they were going to employ;

or

2: the weave was executed instantly, requiring Dashiva and co. embrace the source and execute the weave in a split second, in order to ensure your second point is correct: "Rand had less than a second" before the attack struck;

Your point that Dashiva and Gedwyn would have known what the other was doing with the Power as they built it up would also have meant the Dragon would have quickly sensed this much of Saidin being held in his vicinity.

Your second point negates your first. Firstly you have the rebel Asha'man embracing the Power, building it up, aware all the while of what the other Asha'man are doing - then you have them executing the weave in a split second! So much for them being

"able to feel each other building up the OP and then releasing it."

*

My original point with this thread was the nature of the weave used against the Sun Palace. I realise now that the fact the Dragon didn't sense the massive buildup of Power before the weave was executed poses questions of its own. Presumably it means some or all of the traitor Asha'man were able to mask the fact they were holding the Power...?

The Unreasoner
07-13-2011, 02:10 AM
It doesn't have to mean that. Even if the two weaves were the same, the distance the Maradon weave operated over, and its scale, could have demanded more time. If they're not the same weave, half of your arguments need to be examined. And dashiva could have joined in only after the initial explosion, or the planning could have been done ahead (and so other channeling is expected)

GonzoTheGreat
07-13-2011, 04:59 AM
It can also be the case that they had picked attack positions from which they could see each other, so that they could actually get the timing right.
Or they might even have been using small gateways for communication purposes: those would be as good as telephones with a camera and a screen, if you use them properly. Of course, it does seem that I'm the only one ever to have thought of that. Still, it may be that the Shadow is less incompetent than it seems.

The Unreasoner
07-13-2011, 05:34 PM
Of course, it does seem that I'm the only one ever to have thought of that.

lol you, and what I would bet is a substantial proportion of the fandom. it's too bad theoryland isn't running the school.

Enigma
07-14-2011, 11:40 AM
It can also be the case that they had picked attack positions from which they could see each other, so that they could actually get the timing right.[/i]

There are any number of large halls and rooms in the palace, easy enought for them to find a place where they were close enough to either see or feel each other's weaves/Channeling.

They expected to kill Rand by surprise but even someone as inept as these would be assassisn had to know that if they failed to kill Rand they would be no match for him one one one. They were not certain they got him and until they were certain would it not make sense for them to try ot stick together, or at lease close to each other so that they can try to overpower Rand by numbers instead of individual strenght.

Dashiva of course being forsaken class would be different.

New Futurist Man
07-15-2011, 07:36 AM
There are any number of large halls and rooms in the palace, easy enought for them to find a place where they were close enough to either see or feel each other's weaves/Channeling.

Too close and the Dragon isn't going to be able to differentiate between them. How then would he have experienced the weave coming from two different directions?

They expected to kill Rand by surprise but even someone as inept as these would be assassisn had to know that if they failed to kill Rand they would be no match for him one one one. They were not certain they got him and until they were certain would it not make sense for them to try ot stick together, or at lease close to each other so that they can try to overpower Rand by numbers instead of individual strenght.

I can't really agree with your analysis.

For one: Dashiva by himself and Rochaid and Gedwyn together or any 2 Asha'man could certainly have overpowered the Dragon. There knowledge of weaves doesn't compare to his, but they more than proved how lethal they can be against the Damane. In terms of sheer Power, Dashiva/Aginor is second only to Moridin in strength amongst the Forsaken - add someone like Gedwyn or Rochaid and they would comfortably overpower the Dragon.

Secondly, I don't think the strategy was to "stick together". The strategy was to try to kill him outright, or pinpoint his location when he retaliated - they failed with the first and the Dragon was to cunning to immediately retaliate.

Describing the traitor Asha'man as "inept" seems suspect. The massive club of Air failed - granted. But the Dragon is Ta'veren - the Wheel has a tendency to weave where he's concerned.

Gedwyn, Rochaid and co. especially were the ones to lead the other Asha'man against the Seanchan. No one was complaining there about there performance. The reason the attack failed wasn't because of there incompetence - it was because the Dragon, Perrin and Mat are as about as easy to kill as the Dark One himself.

New Futurist Man
07-15-2011, 07:59 AM
There's precedence for an Asha'man overpowering a stronger, more experienced Channeler: Flinn at the Cleansing forced Demandred into a retreat, lest we forget. And although Flinn was linked at the time, I don't think Demandred was beaten by Flinn's strength but the sheer ferocity and speed at which Flinn was able to weave.

Asha'man training is able to negate the small stock of weaves they're taught for the ferocity with which they execute them. Not to mention the split-second turn around time - which Demandred found out almost to his cost.

They have been - up to this point - trained as weapons after all. Only the Damane can say the same - but there has been only one winner when the Asha'man have faced off with the Damane. Even Demandred, the much-vaunted 'general' and military-leader from the Age of Legends, couldn't step to Flinn when he was in the zone. Go Flinn!

The Unreasoner
07-15-2011, 04:27 PM
And with that I have officially lost any shred of a clue as to what exactly you are arguing...

Flinn is awesome? Sure.
Although dont dismiss the ring too quickly.

Enigma
07-16-2011, 10:27 AM
Too close and the Dragon isn't going to be able to differentiate between them. How then would he have experienced the weave coming from two different directions?

Do we know how far male channelers have to be apart before they are sensed seperatly? I did not meen to suggest that they were exactly shoulder to shoulder but that they were all within line of sight so as to be able to back each other up. Sensitivity seems to be linked to strength so given how strong Rand is, I would not be surprised if he would be able to feel that they were apart without his attachers being at different corners of the palace.


For one: Dashiva by himself and Rochaid and Gedwyn together or any 2 Asha'man could certainly have overpowered the Dragon.

Dashiva & one of the Asha'man would be problem for Rand but while I could be wrong I was under the impression that Taim gave the orders and his cronies set up the attack only for Dashiva to join in at the last minute because he was tired of tagging along with Rand. If that is the case the Asha'man would have had to plan the attack without factoring in having someone of Dashiva's strength with them.

Secondly, I don't think the strategy was to "stick together". The strategy was to try to kill him outright, or pinpoint his location when he retaliated - they failed with the first and the Dragon was to cunning to immediately retaliate.

Describing the traitor Asha'man as "inept" seems suspect. The massive club of Air failed - granted. But the Dragon is Ta'veren - the Wheel has a tendency to weave where he's concerned.

With respect that's a contradition in terms. Are you argueing that they were not inept but failed to plan for what would happen if they failed? That does not seem very good tactical thinking.

I would not say that the Asha'man are week or stupid. Clearly they are reasonable strong, probably stronger that most AS and skilled in killing but there is a big gap from say being as strong as Egwene and being forsaken class.

Unless they are morons they had to at least consider what would happen if the attacked and missed Rand. Its not too much of a stretch to figure that he would come gunning for who ever attached him. The really clever move would have been to hit then run back to the BT where Rand would have know way of knowing which Asha'man had done the deed. They chose to stay and I don't think its impossible that they would want to stay reasonably close to each other for support in case one of the most powerful channelers in the world came looking to kill them.

May be they planned to pinpoint when he retaliated but how are they going to do that. Picking up where men are channeling is really hard unless one has the place warded. Where any of Taim's cronies strong enought to be able to sense Rand channell from where ever he was, unless they were close?

Kimon
07-16-2011, 11:30 AM
Dashiva & one of the Asha'man would be problem for Rand but while I could be wrong I was under the impression that Taim gave the orders and his cronies set up the attack only for Dashiva to join in at the last minute because he was tired of tagging along with Rand. If that is the case the Asha'man would have had to plan the attack without factoring in having someone of Dashiva's strength with them.



The attack was seemingly precipitated by Rand's careless words during his campaign against the Seanchan. Both Torval and Dashiva were there to overhear. Torval reported back to Taim, and Dashiva reported back to the other Chosen. After Gedwyn and Rochaid showed up, Dashiva had a chance to make contact with them. Taim seemed not to have been aware of his involvement, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was completely coincidental.

Enigma
07-18-2011, 01:21 PM
I agree that Taim gave the order but he did not know about Dashiva getting invovled. That suggests to me that Dashiva joined in on the ground not at the planning stage.

We didn't really see the preperation for the attack but would it not make sense for Taim to give the order and the four work out what they were going to do at the Black Tower? I find it hard to imagine the renegade Asha'man wandering the halls of the palance trying to figure out how they were going to make the attemped hit.

They were not part of Rand's core group of Asha'man so their presence there would stand out and the last thing they wanted was to have Rand asking quesions.

I suppose its possible that Taim gave the order at the BT and they went off on their own to plan but given how dangerous what they were planning was and how severe the consequences could be for Taim if it all went wrong I would have thought that he would be there when they worked out how to try to kill Rand.

Its all supposition but I can't see Taim sending his men off on their merry way without having worked out the battle plan in advance and if he did not know Dashiva was going to help out, Dashiva was not involved in the plan.

Of course if they did not know that Dashiva was a forsaken one wonders who he was able to join in the attack. If I was one of the renegade Asha'man about to try and kill the Dragon Reborn and one of the strongest men at the BT who is personally assigned to be with Rand walks in on me I would be worried. I certainly would not go the "Hi Dashiva, we were thinking of trying to kill Rand, fancy joining in?" route. Perhaps he let them know that he was a darkfriend just not high ranking he was like Asmodean & Lanfear did when they went to the waste.

Juan
07-18-2011, 01:29 PM
The forsaken know about Taim more than taim about them. If planned, aginor/Dashiva went to him.

Or... As is most often the case, you can plan out all you like... Doesn't mean that everything will be according to plan. ;)