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yks 6nnetu hing
07-15-2011, 06:59 AM
There's something that got stuck in my head while re-reading tGH. When Rand, Loial and Hurin are lost in a mirror world and are on their way back, "Selene" says:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 17 - Choices
"I know what it is," she said firmly, "but I do not know how to use it. You must do what must be done." She traced one symbol, a little larger than the others, with a finger. A triangle standing on its point inside a circle. "This stands for the true world, our world. I believe it will help if you hold it in your mind while you . . . . " She spread her hands as if unsure exactly what it was he was supposed to do.

Later, when the band's reunited and Rand tries to got to a mirror world (which eventually doesn't work, they make the flicker-flicker journey instead), Verin says to Rand's question:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 37 - What Might Be
"But I don't know anything. " He led his horse around the Stone, looking it up and down. "The one thing I remember is the symbol for our world. Selene showed me, but I don't see it here."
"Of course not. Not on a Stone in our world; the symbols are aids in getting to a world." She shook her head. "What would I not give to talk with this girl of yours? Or better, to put my hands on her book. It is generally thought that no copy of Mirrors of the Wheel survived the Breaking whole. Serafelle always tells me there are more books that we believe lost than I could credit waiting to be found. Well, no use in worrying over what I don't know. I do know some things. The symbols on the top half of the Stone stand for worlds. Not all the Worlds That Might Be, of course. Apparently, not every Stone connects to every world, and the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends believed that there were possible worlds no Stones at all touched. Do you see nothing that sparks a memory?"

On the other hand, when Mat, Thom and Noal are entering the Tower of Ghenjei, they use a triangle, point down and a wavy line through it:

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 53 - Gateways
The three men stepped up to the tower. It did not appear to have a single opening anywhere on its two-hundred-foot-tall height. Not a window, not a seam, not a scratch. Mat looked up, feeling disoriented as he stared along its gleaming length toward the distant gray sky. Did the tower reflect too much light? He shuddered and turned to Thom. Mat gave a single nod. Hesitating only briefly, Thom slid a bronze knife from its sheath on his belt and stepped over to set the tip against the tower. He grimly slid the knife in the shape of a triangle, about a palm wide, point down. Metal scraped against metal, but left no trail. Thom finished by making a wavy line through the center, as one did at the start of any game of Snakes and Foxes.

but then, when they're EXITING the Tower, you would think that Mat would have to make the sign for Randland (downward triangle within a circle) but no:

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 55 - The One Left Behind
Mat spun the ashandarei and thrust it into the wall. The point sank into the not-stone. Light sprayed out around it, spilling free like blood gushing from a split vein. Mat screamed, ramming it in farther. Powerful waves of light erupted from the wall. He drew the ashandarei down at an angle, making a slit. He pulled the weapon up the other side, cutting out a large inverse triangle of light. The light seemed to thrum as it washed across him. The Aelfinn had reached the doorway by Thom, but they hissed, shying back from the powerful radiance.
Mat finished by drawing a wavy line down the middle of the triangle. He could barely see, the light was so bright. The section of the wall in front of him fell away, revealing a glowing white passage that seemed to be cut out of steel. "Well I'll . . ." Thom whispered, standing up. The Aelfinn screamed with high-pitched anger. They entered the room, arms raised to shield their eyes, wicked swords gripped in opposing hands. "Get her out!" Mat bellowed, spinning to face the creatures. He lifted the ashandarei, using the butt end to smash the face of the first Aelfinn. "Go!" Thom grabbed Moiraine, then spared a glance at Mat. "Go!" Mat repeated, smashing the arm of another Aelfinn.


Now, the portals to the Finn worlds are not exactly the same as the Portal Stones to mirror worlds, because the Finn worlds are parallel rather than mirror worlds:
Date: 2005-09-04 | Location: DragonCon 2005
Type: Q and A Session | Questioner: Tamyrlin
Q: do Portal Stones lead to Parallel Worlds, Mirror Worlds, or both?
A: They lead to Mirror Worlds, the Portal Stones can take you to Mirror Worlds, not to Parallels, which are separate.

at the same time the BWB directly contradicts this:
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Exotic Animals of Seanchan
These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn. While the creatures’ effectiveness was not recorded, it was during this same period that all remaining Shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated. The creatures remained, their care and training surviving through all the political upheavals until Luthair’s arrival. The knowledge that allowed their procurement by way of the Portal Stones, however, was lost.

rather obviously, I'm going to take RJ's word for it.

There are 3 ways into the 'Finn world that I can recall: 2 "doorways" and the Tower of Ghenjei where the way had to be opened first.

While moving between mirror worlds, it's imperative to know the symbol of the world you're going to, moving between parallel worlds (at least the ones we've seen) seems to be more a question of using the same way in as out. it seems a bit dodgy to me but there's not really enough information to say that the scene of coming out of Ghenjei had a mistake in it.

on a slightly different tack:
According to Verin's explanation to Egwene in tDR, all the worlds, both Mirror and Parallel are connected by T'A'R:
TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 21 - A World of Dreams
Verin stared at her as if she were deliberately being dense. "Nothing? Of course it has something to do with it, child. The point is that there is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One. There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel'aran'rhiod, "the Unseen World." Perhaps "the World of Dreams" is a better translation. Many people - ordinary folk who could not think of channeling - sometimes glimpse Tel'aran'rhiod in their dreams, and even catch glimmers of these other worlds through it. Think of some of the peculiar things you have seen in your dreams. But a Dreamer, child - a true Dreamer - can enter Tel'aran'rhiod."

now, when Egwene teaches herself to Travel, she first goes through to T'A'R *in the flesh* which horrifies the Wise Ones.

Theoretically, it should be possible to go from T'A'R to a mirror world or even to a parallel world. Perhaps that's why it's so dangerous to go to T'A'R in the flesh, one teeny-tiny mistake and you don't come out in your own world? It ought to be possible to Travel directly between mirror worlds, however knowing exactly where you're going to is imperative when Traveling which would make it much harder to go to a world you've never been to before. On the other hand, maybe that's exactly why it's so important to know both where you're coming from and going to, otherwise you might end up in a mirror world? Although, I suspect it might take an overkill of OP to open a portal to a mirror world by accident. As for Parallel worlds... much tricksier. I think you'd have to know precisely where to cross as well as how.

A huge question-mark for me is: is the Tower of Ghenjei connected ONLY to the 'Finns or could it be a potential gateway to any parallel world, as long as you know the symbol? As far as I remember (and I may be fairly wrong here as I couldn't find a quote to back myself up), the Eelfinn and Aelfinn do not inhibit the same world - perhaps they're mirror worlds to each other? Or are they very tightly parallel to each other?

thoughts? comments?

Ishara
07-15-2011, 08:39 AM
A huge question-mark for me is: is the Tower of Ghenjei connected ONLY to the 'Finns or could it be a potential gateway to any parallel world, as long as you know the symbol? As far as I remember (and I may be fairly wrong here as I couldn't find a quote to back myself up), the Eelfinn and Aelfinn do not inhibit the same world - perhaps they're mirror worlds to each other? Or are they very tightly parallel to each other?

thoughts? comments?

Excellent topic yks! How exciting!

I have to mull over most of it, as my knee-jerk reaction is to say that the xit from Ghelji was as much literary balance as it was different than it should have been. Clearly not enough, therefore I mull.

BUT, the glossary leads me to believe that they inhabit the same parallel world:

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: GLOSSARY
Aelfinn: A race of beings, largely human in appearance but with snakelike characteristics, who will give true answers to three questions. Whatever the question, their answers are always correct, if frequently given in forms that are not clear, but questions concerning the Shadow can be extremely dangerous. Their true location is unknown, but they can be visited by passing through a ter'angreal, once a possession of Mayene but in recent years held in the Stone of Tear. They can also be reached by entering the Tower of Ghenjei. They speak the Old Tongue, mention treaties and agreements, and ask if those entering carry iron, instruments of music, or devices that can make fire. See also Eelfinn, Snakes and Foxes.


and
TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: GLOSSARY
Eelfinn: A race of beings, largely human in appearance but with fox-like characteristics, who will grant three wishes, although they ask for a price in return. If the person asking does not negotiate a price, the Eelfinn choose it. The most common price in such circumstances is death, but they still fulfill their part of the bargain, although the manner in which they fulfill it is seldom the manner the one asking expects. Their true location is unknown, but it was possible to visit them by means of a ter'angreal that was located in Rhuidean. That ter'angreal was taken by Moiraine Damodred to Cairhien, where it was destroyed. They may also be reached by entering the Tower of Ghenjei. They ask the same questions as the Aelfinn regarding fire, iron, and musical instruments. See also Aelfinn, Snakes and Foxes.


Plus:

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 22 - The End of a Legend
He wished he knew more about the Aelfinn and Eelfinn and their bloody tower.

The treaties won't be in effect, so the Aelfinn and Eelfinn can draw blood. Normally, you only have to worry about tricks with pits or ropes, since they can't. . . ." ... "If you go in the other way, they'll probably try that as well. Shedding blood in their kingdom can have strange effects. They'll try to break your bones with a fall or drug you to sleep. And they will win, Mat. It's their world."

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 22 - The End of a Legend
"The tower isn't a place, it's a portal. A kind of gate to the crossroads between their realms. You'll find both of them there, Aelfinn snakes and Eelfinn foxes. Assuming they're working together currently. They have a strange relationship."

So, I basically just exhausted the search engine. LOL. BUT, it seems to work both ways yks. Yes, they inhabit the same world, but the Tower is also a portal(stone?) to other parallel worlds?

The other piece I found to be particularly interesting was the bit I italicized regaing shedding blood. They were the ones to shed blood - Mat's blood. I wonder what effect that had on the events that proceeded?

yks 6nnetu hing
07-15-2011, 09:34 AM
I'm intrigued by the use of the word "realm" it really doesn't specify enough to define parallel or mirror worlds. But, I think they're mirror worlds of each other in some way so that the Tower of Ghenjei is to the 'Finns as a Portal stone is to Randland?

in which case, another question arises: how come it's possible to enter that particular portal from Randland? Is it because the world of the 'Finns has a special affinity to Randland or is it because the 'Finns can have access to more parallel worlds? perhaps even any parallel world?

Ishara
07-15-2011, 11:57 AM
Hold on, do you mean that you think that the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn each occupy their own parallel worlds, but both within the Tower?

While I agree that realm is not nearly exact enough to determine the answer, I'd say that RJ's interview response allows us to safely say that the Tower and the world(s) that the *Finn reside in are parallel worlds, and NOT mirror worlds.

I'd change the logical reasoning from:

Tower of Ghenjei is to the 'Finns as a Portal stone is to Randland

to:

Tower of Ghenjei is to the *Finns as a Portal Stone is to Mirror Worlds (including Randland).

I wonder about the ability of the *Finn to access other parallel worlds, but don't think that they can access Mirror Worlds. Does that make sense?

Marie Curie 7
07-15-2011, 12:14 PM
I'm intrigued by the use of the word "realm" it really doesn't specify enough to define parallel or mirror worlds. But, I think they're mirror worlds of each other in some way so that the Tower of Ghenjei is to the 'Finns as a Portal stone is to Randland?

No, the Aelfinn and Eelfinn inhabit separate parallel worlds. The Tower of Ghenjei is what Birgitte described - a crossroads between the two worlds. Maria confirmed:

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2714)

Matt: Okay, so yeah this is the question I'll ask, you make a good point. Are there worlds and dimensions that exist outside of the Pattern?

Brandon: Ok, see that's the question you should be asking. I mean, you should be asking it, but it doesn't mean I'm going to answer it. [laughter] But that's at the core of the question. I'm going to discuss it without giving you the answer. I like to do this because I think it frames the question without giving you too much information that I have that I don't think is appropriate to share right now. Extrapolations of this question get us to: is there one Dragon for all different Parallels or are they all different Dragons? Traveling through the Portal Stone seems to indicate that there are many different lives Rand could have led. The same thing happens with several of the ter'angreal that people go through. The question then is, are those all separate universes? Do we have a multiverse sort of concept? Or are they possibilities? And do these worlds all exist, or could exist...what is the difference? In some of those Rand failed. So, is Rand the Dragon in all of them, or is Rand not the Dragon in some of them? What happens in the ones where Rand failed? Are they real worlds? Are those different worlds where there is a different Dark One who then takes over and destroys that world? Or maybe not, maybe he makes it as he wishes. Or are those just possibilities, reflections of this world that don't really exist except when we touch them? Those are all very good questions. Robert Jordan said that Tel'aran'rhiod is a reflection of all different worlds, which implies other worlds continue to exist. The World of the 'Finns is something different…

Matt: He called it a parallel world.

Brandon: Yes, the parallel world, that one and also the one Rand and Lanfear visited are persistent regardless of someone from this world visiting.

Maria clarifies:
[Maria: I had to look it up to make sure that I had which one was which correct. The 'finn worlds are parallel worlds, the Ogier world is a parallel world. The place that Lanfear, Rand, Loial and Hurin went to was a Mirror World, as were all of the ones in the Portal Stone incident.]


in which case, another question arises: how come it's possible to enter that particular portal from Randland? Is it because the world of the 'Finns has a special affinity to Randland or is it because the 'Finns can have access to more parallel worlds? perhaps even any parallel world?

We have no indication that the Finns have access to any other parallel worlds. However, there are clearly other methods that can be used to access parallel worlds. The Ogier world is a parallel world, and we know that the Ogier can return there by opening their Book of Translation. So this must be another means of accessing a parallel world - or perhaps it's comparable to the Tower of Ghenjei, except that the Ogier world 'portal' is in a different form than a big silver Tower or redstone doorframe.

Crispin's Crispian
07-15-2011, 12:21 PM
Cyndane said that the Ael'finn and Eel'finn held her, not just one of them. And Mat & Co. encounter both in various forms on their journey.

I think they inhabit the same parallel world, but just not the same parts of it. The Tower is like the meeting place. As for its affinity to our world, no idea. I'm going to guess that somewhere back in the day the Aes Sedai made an incursion into their world, and there was some kind of battle. The incursion is the Tower (perhaps built by someone named Ghenji), and the end of the battle resulted in the treat(ies).

I'm not sure you can really make an analogy between Portal Stones and the Tower. But maybe. I'm curious if there are other parallel worlds with other methods of access.

Kimon
07-15-2011, 12:31 PM
on a slightly different tack:
According to Verin's explanation to Egwene in tDR, all the worlds, both Mirror and Parallel are connected by T'A'R:


now, when Egwene teaches herself to Travel, she first goes through to T'A'R *in the flesh* which horrifies the Wise Ones.

Theoretically, it should be possible to go from T'A'R to a mirror world or even to a parallel world. Perhaps that's why it's so dangerous to go to T'A'R in the flesh, one teeny-tiny mistake and you don't come out in your own world? It ought to be possible to Travel directly between mirror worlds, however knowing exactly where you're going to is imperative when Traveling which would make it much harder to go to a world you've never been to before. On the other hand, maybe that's exactly why it's so important to know both where you're coming from and going to, otherwise you might end up in a mirror world? Although, I suspect it might take an overkill of OP to open a portal to a mirror world by accident. As for Parallel worlds... much tricksier. I think you'd have to know precisely where to cross as well as how.

A huge question-mark for me is: is the Tower of Ghenjei connected ONLY to the 'Finns or could it be a potential gateway to any parallel world, as long as you know the symbol? As far as I remember (and I may be fairly wrong here as I couldn't find a quote to back myself up), the Eelfinn and Aelfinn do not inhibit the same world - perhaps they're mirror worlds to each other? Or are they very tightly parallel to each other?

thoughts? comments?

But is Tel'aran'rhiod connected to the parallel worlds at all? Here is RJ's comment on the connection between T'A'R and Ghenjei:

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

Q: Also, what was going on in Aelfland when Mat went round and round and round the same location? Were they traveling in time?
RJ: Not traveling in time. the physical laws of nature differ. Mentioning the Dark One here is bad luck. In Aelfland, it is really bad. You can not go to Aelfland in Tel'aran'rhiod (similar to stedding).

More RJ:

WinespringBrother reporting:

WinespringBrother: Does the physical location of the world of 'Finns have anything to do with the bells ringing when the ta'veren were in together?
Jordan: No.
WinespringBrother: Have the 'Finns existed as long as the Wheel?
Jordan: Yes.
WinespringBrother: Do they have souls?
Jordan: Yes.
WinespringBrother: Are the 'Finns from human stock?
Jordan: No.
WinespringBrother: Did they originate in their current location?
Jordan: Yes.
WinespringBrother: Are they related to Tel'aran'rhiod or do they control Tel'aran'rhiod?
Jordan: No.

Tamyrlin: The 'Finns reside in a Parallel World, is that correct?
Jordan: Yes.
Tamyrlin: Okay, so are Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds the same thing?
Jordan: No, they are different.
Tamyrlin: Okay, well then do Parallel Worlds have their own reflections?
Jordan: Possibly.
Tamyrlin: Did Lanfear get the opportunity to ask the 'Finns, to make a wish, after going through the doorway with Moiraine?
Jordan: Read and find out.
Tamyrlin: Okay, well, then did Moiraine get the opportunity to make a wish?
Jordan: Read and find out.

T'A'R seems like a Mirror World itself, albeit the easiest Mirror World to enter. This might explain why you can't enter either Ghenjei or a stedding in T'A'R - because they are both parallel worlds, hence their is no "mirror" of wotland that can be accessed. So it makes sense that you can't enter T'A'R, being a mirror of wotlandia, and then use that mirror to access the parallel worlds of Ghenjei and the stedding. But do those parallels have their own T'A'R-mirror worlds? Could you enter a finnland only (or a Ogier World only version from within a stedding) T'A'R while inside finnland, or would they completely lack a version of T'A'R?

I think Verin here was simply wrong. T'A'R seems like a pure Mirror World, and since finnland and the stedding are parallels, that's why they can't be accessed through T'A'R, because T'A'R is a mirror of a specific world.

Marie Curie 7
07-15-2011, 12:46 PM
Cyndane said that the Ael'finn and Eel'finn held her, not just one of them. And Mat & Co. encounter both in various forms on their journey.

I think they inhabit the same parallel world, but just not the same parts of it. The Tower is like the meeting place. As for its affinity to our world, no idea. I'm going to guess that somewhere back in the day the Aes Sedai made an incursion into their world, and there was some kind of battle. The incursion is the Tower (perhaps built by someone named Ghenji), and the end of the battle resulted in the treat(ies).

Sorry Crispy, but did you read Maria's quote that I included in my post above? She said that the Finn worlds are parallel worlds - plural. ;)

And Cyndane was able to be held by both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn simply because the Finns have access to each other's worlds via the crossroads of the Tower of Ghenjei.


I'm not sure you can really make an analogy between Portal Stones and the Tower. But maybe. I'm curious if there are other parallel worlds with other methods of access.

See my post above regarding the Ogier world. It is also a parallel world and can be accessed by the Book of Translation.

Crispin's Crispian
07-15-2011, 01:11 PM
Sorry Crispy, but did you read Maria's quote that I included in my post above? She said that the Finn worlds are parallel worlds - plural. ;)

And Cyndane was able to be held by both the Aelfinn and Eelfinn simply because the Finns have access to each other's worlds via the crossroads of the Tower of Ghenjei.
Nope, finished my post before I saw yours. If this is true--that they inhabit separate parallel worlds--it's interesting that no ritual is required to move from one to the other.


See my post above regarding the Ogier world. It is also a parallel world and can be accessed by the Book of Translation.
Nice. Thanks.

Crispin's Crispian
07-15-2011, 01:20 PM
But is Tel'aran'rhiod connected to the parallel worlds at all? Here is RJ's comment on the connection between T'A'R and Ghenjei:

T'A'R seems like a Mirror World itself, albeit the easiest Mirror World to enter. This might explain why you can't enter either Ghenjei or a stedding in T'A'R - because they are both parallel worlds, hence their is no "mirror" of wotland that can be accessed. So it makes sense that you can't enter T'A'R, being a mirror of wotlandia, and then use that mirror to access the parallel worlds of Ghenjei and the stedding.

But that doesn't quite jive with Birgitte's warning to Perrin in TSR:

"No, archer." She laughed. "I only came to warn you, despite the prescripts. Once entered, the Tower of Ghenjei is hard enough to leave in the world of men. Here it is all but impossible. You have a Bannerman's courage, which some say cannot be told from foolhardiness."
She definitely implies that you can get to and from the Tower in Tel'aran'rhiod. Of course, maybe this is what RJ meant--it's almost impossible to get in or out from there. But this seems to preclude the idea that it is completely inaccessible.




But do those parallels have their own T'A'R-mirror worlds? Could you enter a finnland only (or a Ogier World only version from within a stedding) T'A'R while inside finnland, or would they completely lack a version of T'A'R?

I think Verin here was simply wrong. T'A'R seems like a pure Mirror World, and since finnland and the stedding are parallels, that's why they can't be accessed through T'A'R, because T'A'R is a mirror of a specific world.

Interesting. So you're suggesting that Tel'aran'rhiod is not really the third constant, but rather that each parallel world has its own Dream World. I'll have to look, but I could swear RJ once said that Ogier don't dream into Tel'aran'rhiod. I guess he could have been very specific.

Kimon
07-15-2011, 01:32 PM
But that doesn't quite jive with Birgitte's warning to Perrin in TSR:

She definitely implies that you can get to and from the Tower in Tel'aran'rhiod. Of course, maybe this is what RJ meant--it's almost impossible to get in or out from there. But this seems to preclude the idea that it is completely inaccessible.





Interesting. So you're suggesting that Tel'aran'rhiod is not really the third constant, but rather that each parallel world has its own Dream World. I'll have to look, but I could swear RJ once said that Ogier don't dream into Tel'aran'rhiod. I guess he could have been very specific.

Ghenjei might be a bit of an exception in of itself, in that it is a conduit that links wotland to the parallel lands of the finns. It might be said to thus exist, at least partially, in both of these parallels, but so tenuously that reaching T'A'R is nigh impossible from it.

Concerning whether T'A'R is really the so-called "third constant", think of it this way. T'A'R certainly seems a mirror-like reflection of the world through which you entered it, but does that make it a constant? What if Rand had entered T'A'R while in the Mirror World in tGH. Would he have entered the same T'A'R that can be entered from the normal world, or would it have been different as a consequence of it being a reflection of the world that he was presently in? And if it was a "constant", then couldn't he have entered T'A'R in the flesh in the Mirror World, and then stepped back out of T'A'R back into his own world?

Tamyrlin
07-15-2011, 01:55 PM
First, yes, it would appear that the Tower of Ghenjei is some sort of portal between two parallel Worlds, Aelfland and Eefland (as Marie pointed out regarding the quote and with other evidence from how RJ refers to the worlds separately). Recall, Parallel Worlds are simply other Worlds, let's not complicate them at all. Other worlds in other universes, same Universe, doesn't really matter, they are other Worlds. The idea that there are two Parallel Worlds that are close to each other that would enable easier travel than others seems mundane, but I do like the looking at the Tower as analogous to Portal Stones. In fact, it's not a stretch to suggest that the Portal Stones and there mechanisms provided inspiration for the development of the Tower of Ghenjei and the redstone Ter'angreal doorways.

As to Birgitte and RJ, the quotes do not create a problem. RJ specified Aelfland in his answer, where Birgitte is speaking about entering the Tower of Ghenjei, the crossroad between both worlds. In fact, I'm pretty sure RJ mentioned that it was similar to what we see with a stedding.

But is Tel'aran'rhiod connected to the parallel worlds at all?

Yes, T'A'R is connected to Parallel Worlds. It surrounds all worlds. There are specific cases where there are "bubbles" if you will where such reflections cannot be entered (think Rhuidean), such "bubbles" either created by a "man" or generated by the Wheel, and apparently Aelfland is shielded in some way.

Concerning whether T'A'R is really the so-called "third constant", think of it this way. T'A'R certainly seems a mirror-like reflection of the world through which you entered it, but does that make it a constant? What if Rand had entered T'A'R while in the Mirror World in tGH. Would he have entered the same T'A'R that can be entered from the normal world, or would it have been different as a consequence of it being a reflection of the world that he was presently in? And if it was a "constant", then couldn't he have entered T'A'R in the flesh in the Mirror World, and then stepped back out of T'A'R back into his own world?

Yes - Mirror Worlds have TAR reflections. If Rand had entered TAR while in that Mirror World he would have entered the reflection of that Mirror World. And yes, he could have done that if he had known how to use TAR/MirrorWorld/Real World travel. I doubt it is easy or simple in any fashion to use TAR travel between reflections, but it seems apparent that it can be done considering the existence of Portal Stones connecting the worlds of if created by those that knew the numbers of chaos. The GOI is another plausible starting point for the development of the Portal Stones too.

From all of my discussions on this topic, our study still stands the test of time, although it needs updating (http://www.theoryland.com/studies.php?page=unseenworld). I spoke with the 4th Age Podcast about TAR in episodes 99 and 100 if I recall correctly...I need to go back and listen to them because I recall some ideas coming out that I wanted to pursue.

Oh, one last note about the Seanchan animals. Here is the manner in which Portal Stones were used (imho) to acquire the animals while working within the framework provided by the canon we have so far uncovered.

Our World -> Use Portal Stone
Portal Stone -> Mirror World of a Parallel World
Mirror World of a Parallel World -> Use Portal Stone
Portal Stone -> Parallel World

(I wonder if there is some power constraint that makes it impossible to do a 'Our World' to 'Parallel World' direct travel through Portal Stones...seems an odd constraint...although maybe it's a constraint of the Pattern and Laws of Traveling, considering whatever Rand did while with Verin forced them through thousands of Mirror World variations on their lives...which is also a fun topic to discuss and makes you wonder if Portal Stones were also studied when developing the Testing Ter'angreal used by the White Tower.)

And then they returned the same way. Remember, Portal Stones connect to Mirror Worlds BUT they can be used, once in a Mirror World to travel to a Real World as long as the symbol of that world is known, as Rand demonstrated by traveling back to our World from the Mirror World Portal Stone. So, the BWB is correct and so is RJ.

Ishara
07-15-2011, 03:24 PM
T'A'R seems like a Mirror World itself, albeit the easiest Mirror World to enter. This might explain why you can't enter either Ghenjei or a stedding in T'A'R - because they are both parallel worlds, hence their is no "mirror" of wotland that can be accessed. So it makes sense that you can't enter T'A'R, being a mirror of wotlandia, and then use that mirror to access the parallel worlds of Ghenjei and the stedding. But do those parallels have their own T'A'R-mirror worlds? Could you enter a finnland only (or a Ogier World only version from within a stedding) T'A'R while inside finnland, or would they completely lack a version of T'A'R?

I think Verin here was simply wrong. T'A'R seems like a pure Mirror World, and since finnland and the stedding are parallels, that's why they can't be accessed through T'A'R, because T'A'R is a mirror of a specific world.

I don't think so. We have quotes to the contrary, and Verin had no reason to lie at that point, about those sets of facts.

It may confuse the issue, but think of TAR as a big mirror. The world it reflects may change (as you access it from different Mirror Wolds), but the fact that it is being reflected does not change. TAR is the constant, the world it reflects is what changes.

ETA: Also, stedding are not parallel worlds, just captured in those bubbles" that TAR cannot touch. HUGE distinction.

Crispin's Crispian
07-15-2011, 04:05 PM
I don't think so. We have quotes to the contrary, and Verin had no reason to lie at that point, about those sets of facts.

It may confuse the isse, but think of TAR as a big mirror. The world it reflects may change (as you access it from different Mirror Wolds), but the fact that it is being reflected does not change. TAR is the constant, the world it reflects is what changes.
Yes, calling it a mirror is confusing. I think if more like memory foam. The world sits on a giant mattress made of memory foam, and the longer anything in that world stays in one place, the stronger the impression made.

Tam has a lot of definitive answers in his post, but doesn't back any of them up with quotes. I'm not 100% convinced on some of it, e.g. that Tel'aran'rhiod reflects the Mirror Worlds as well. I think the Mirror Worlds are not truly real, but exist as potentialities. I could be way off, though.

The Unreasoner
07-15-2011, 04:48 PM
I think the Mirror Worlds are not truly real, but exist as potentialities. I could be way off, though

Why not both? "What is real is not real." The worlds do not contribute to the War of Power, or anything important (the DO can't escape there, the Dragon can't seal him there), and everything that exists is directly dependent on the true world. But if you go there, you can really get killed, really live off the food and water. Unlike T'A'R.

And I don't think the boss explained how exactly a mirror of a parallel is in any way accessible by the randland portal stones. I would actually think that the grolm and whatnot came from mirror worlds, and that the comment that they came from parallel worlds is inaccurate, or a mistake.

And I love this topic, one of my long shot theories was that perrin leads the wolves in an interworld strike force via T'A'R.

Maybe the bargain the aes sedai had with the finn demands randland's channelers' aid when the DO is nearly loose in their world. In any case, the tower and the stones seem to have been 'built' so the symbols and stones have no need to work the same way as the tower.

one thought: the 'snakey square' represents the (with an obvious wish for another word) intersection of the two worlds, men see the finn as snakes and foxes, and perhaps the design indicates to the finn in some way the nature of their dealings.

Crispin's Crispian
07-15-2011, 05:42 PM
Why not both? "What is real is not real." The worlds do not contribute to the War of Power, or anything important (the DO can't escape there, the Dragon can't seal him there), and everything that exists is directly dependent on the true world. But if you go there, you can really get killed, really live off the food and water. Unlike T'A'R.
Yeah, that's possible. I have no proof for my speculation either, but I've always enjoyed the idea that the Mirror Worlds are the Wheel's method of predicting the best possible outcome. It's fine if they're just splinter worlds generated as a result of decisions, events, etc., but I like the idea that they're simulations and have an impact on prophecy, Dreaming, and Min's viewings.

And I don't think the boss explained how exactly a mirror of a parallel is in any way accessible by the randland portal stones. I would actually think that the grolm and whatnot came from mirror worlds, and that the comment that they came from parallel worlds is inaccurate, or a mistake.I agree. He merely added another layer without explaining the jump. That is, why would you be able to Portal Stone jump to a Mirror of a Parallel? It requires that the Mirror Worlds have an additional layer of accessibility. It's certainly possible, but I don't see much evidence for it.

And I love this topic, one of my long shot theories was that perrin leads the wolves in an interworld strike force via T'A'R.
Long shot? I'd say it's damn near guaranteed. Or at least, that's been my impression for years and years.

Maybe the bargain the aes sedai had with the finn demands randland's channelers' aid when the DO is nearly loose in their world. In any case, the tower and the stones seem to have been 'built' so the symbols and stones have no need to work the same way as the tower.
Not sure about this. I think the only treaty is the one that governs the use of the Doorways. The *finn get to feed on memories, experience, and ta'veren energy, whilst answering questions/fulfilling requests of those generating their food.

I will say that I don't like all the references to the DO/Shadow etc. being especially salient to the *finn. Why is that? Are they going to play some role in the Last Battle? What is the relationship?

nameless
07-15-2011, 06:00 PM
And I don't think the boss explained how exactly a mirror of a parallel is in any way accessible by the randland portal stones. I would actually think that the grolm and whatnot came from mirror worlds, and that the comment that they came from parallel worlds is inaccurate, or a mistake.
I tend to believe this myself. The BWB was written from RJ's notes but not with any real input from RJ himself, so if the notes said that grolm, etc were brought to the prime world by Portal Stones, there's no reason to believe Teresa Patterson would know that Portal Stones are supposed to go to mirror worlds and not parallel worlds.

Tamyrlin
07-15-2011, 07:32 PM
And I don't think the boss explained how exactly a mirror of a parallel is in any way accessible by the randland portal stones. I would actually think that the grolm and whatnot came from mirror worlds, and that the comment that they came from parallel worlds is inaccurate, or a mistake.


I agree. He merely added another layer without explaining the jump. That is, why would you be able to Portal Stone jump to a Mirror of a Parallel? It requires that the Mirror Worlds have an additional layer of accessibility. It's certainly possible, but I don't see much evidence for it.


Me? Make a jump? Of course! It's a theory, but I haven't heard a better one, so I'm running with it for now. I'm sure we'll get all of the support for my theory out before this discussion is done.;)

However, first, I'd like to dispute this notion that Grolm came from a Mirror World. So, answer me this, what world was the Mirror World reflecting where the Grolm were found since Grolm are not native to Randland?

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Exotic Animals of Seanchan
These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn. While the creatures’ effectiveness was not recorded, it was during this same period that all remaining Shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated. The creatures remained, their care and training surviving through all the political upheavals until Luthair’s arrival. The knowledge that allowed their procurement by way of the Portal Stones, however, was lost.

Note: My second dispute will be that Mirror Worlds are not inhabited by "real" people nor "real animals" and that inhabitants of Mirror Worlds cannot enter the Real World (although with the Pattern breaking down, showing up as Ghosts and such in the Real World and other oddities can occur...stupid Pattern breaking down!) But let's deal with the first dispute...well, first.

Ishara
07-15-2011, 07:39 PM
Not sure about this. I think the only treaty is the one that governs the use of the Doorways. The *finn get to feed on memories, experience, and ta'veren energy, whilst answering questions/fulfilling requests of those generating their food.

I will say that I don't like all the references to the DO/Shadow etc. being especially salient to the *finn. Why is that? Are they going to play some role in the Last Battle? What is the relationship?

I don't think it is salient. Birgette's pretty clear that while mentioning the DO in *Finnland is bad, their method of interpreting good/ evil is simply very different than ours. It's like imposing our own cultural mores on others from different backgrounds. Doesn't necessarily jive.

nameless
07-15-2011, 08:07 PM
Me? Make a jump? Of course! It's a theory, but I haven't heard a better one, so I'm running with it for now. I'm sure we'll get all of the support for my theory out before this discussion is done.;)

However, first, I'd like to dispute this notion that Grolm came from a Mirror World. So, answer me this, what world was the Mirror World reflecting where the Grolm were found since Grolm are not native to Randland?



Note: My second dispute will be that Mirror Worlds are not inhabited by "real" people nor "real animals" and that inhabitants of Mirror Worlds cannot enter the Real World (although with the Pattern breaking down, showing up as Ghosts and such in the Real World and other oddities can occur...stupid Pattern breaking down!) But let's deal with the first dispute...well, first.

There were grolm in the mirror world that Rand, Loial, and Hurin visited. In that iteration of history Hawkwing lost the great battle against the Trollocs, so he never sent his son across the ocean to conquer the other continent, yet grolm nevertheless ended up on the mainland despite the lack of Seanchan to bring them across. While it's impossible to say for sure how they got there without inside information from Maria or Brandon, it could be that exotic creatures coming across from parallel worlds is one of the events that only manifests in some probabilities, so some mirror worlds would have them and some would not depending on their precise location along the lines of "if."

somelamename
07-15-2011, 10:03 PM
now, when Egwene teaches herself to Travel, she first goes through to T'A'R *in the flesh* which horrifies the Wise Ones.

Theoretically, it should be possible to go from T'A'R to a mirror world or even to a parallel world. Perhaps that's why it's so dangerous to go to T'A'R in the flesh, one teeny-tiny mistake and you don't come out in your own world? It ought to be possible to Travel directly between mirror worlds, however knowing exactly where you're going to is imperative when Traveling which would make it much harder to go to a world you've never been to before. On the other hand, maybe that's exactly why it's so important to know both where you're coming from and going to, otherwise you might end up in a mirror world? Although, I suspect it might take an overkill of OP to open a portal to a mirror world by accident. As for Parallel worlds... much tricksier. I think you'd have to know precisely where to cross as well as how.


I always thought the entering T'A'R in the flesh is what Isam/Slayer does. not entering in with the OP the Wise Ones said it was evil and you became less human from doing it (sorry no quote) and that sounds more like Isam/Slayer then the people using the one power to enter.

Tamyrlin
07-15-2011, 11:49 PM
There were grolm in the mirror world that Rand, Loial, and Hurin visited. In that iteration of history Hawkwing lost the great battle against the Trollocs, so he never sent his son across the ocean to conquer the other continent, yet grolm nevertheless ended up on the mainland despite the lack of Seanchan to bring them across. While it's impossible to say for sure how they got there without inside information from Maria or Brandon, it could be that exotic creatures coming across from parallel worlds is one of the events that only manifests in some probabilities, so some mirror worlds would have them and some would not depending on their precise location along the lines of "if."

I'm speaking about the originals brought over long before this happened when those who had the knowledge used Portal Stones to acquire them. Obviously, once the Grolm were in Randland, then a Mirror World of Randland like that which Rand visited could reflect Grolm.

However, that's not important for now. I'm talking about the first Grolm to be brought to this world to fight Shadowspawn. They were not native to Randland.

So, what is the native world of the Grolm of which there was a reflection to be traveled to via a Portal Stone?

Weiramon
07-16-2011, 12:32 AM
I always thought the entering T'A'R in the flesh is what Isam/Slayer does. not entering in with the OP the Wise Ones said it was evil and you became less human from doing it (sorry no quote) and that sounds more like Isam/Slayer then the people using the one power to enter.

Burn my soul, that must be so!

No doubt if the Spider was collared into a dream of the Lord Dragon fighting one of the Chosen . . . I mean Forsaken, say Rahvin, she would not despair that they are there in the flesh.

FelixPax
07-16-2011, 12:36 AM
I'm intrigued by the use of the word "realm" it really doesn't specify enough to define parallel or mirror worlds. But, I think they're mirror worlds of each other in some way so that the Tower of Ghenjei is to the 'Finns as a Portal stone is to Randland?


Let's take it from a slightly different angle. Remember both the Rhuidean and Steddings right?


Every place except Ogier stedding had its reflection in the World of Dreams—even the stedding did, really; but they could not be entered, just as Rhuidean had once been closed.


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 10 "Unseen Eyes" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view


Was Rhuidean in a Parallel World, before Rand & Asmodean destroyed the weaves surrounding the city?

One couldn't enter Rhuidean by Dreaming earlier, as Seana once claimed too. Just like the Tower of the Ghenjei. Yet now characters can Dream within the boundaries of Rhuidean, since the changes have occurred. If one Parallel World can change, why not the Steddings and the Tower of Ghenjei too?





Now let's take a second slightly alternative take, this time on the Ways and what Mierin called the True World.


Are the Ways actually a Mirror World?

Rand's point of view suggests it is so, especially if one later contrasts this below text with the Chapters of Hurin, Loial, Selene, Rand in a Mirror World (TGH book).


Rand shook his head and tried to concentrate on the Waygate itself rather than what lay behind it, but that was just as disturbing in its own fashion. If there had been anything to look at in the darkness besides the Waygate, he would have looked at it. In the cellar, through the smoky dimness, Moiraine and the others were plain enough, but they moved as if in a dream. Every blink of an eye seemed a deliberate, exaggerated gesture. Mat was making his way to the Waygate as though walking through clear jelly, his legs seeming to swim forward.

“The Wheel turns faster in the Ways,” Loial explained. He looked at the darkness surrounding them, and his head sunk in between his shoulders. “None alive know more than fragments. I fear what I don’t know about the Ways, Rand.”

...

Mat stepped through the gate and regained normal speed. For an instant he stared at the seemingly endless darkness, then came running to join them, his lantern bobbing on its pole, his horse leaping behind him, almost sending him sprawling. One by one the others passed through, Perrin and Egwene and Nynaeve, each pausing in shocked silence before hurrying to join the rest. Each lantern enlarged the pool of light, but not as much as it should have. It was as if the dark became denser the more light there was, thickening as it fought against being diminished.

...

Finally only Moiraine was left in the cellar, dimly lit by the lantern she had taken. The Aes Sedai still moved in that dreamlike way. Her hand crept as it found the leaf of Avendesora.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 44 “The Dark Along the Ways” – Rand al’Thor point of view; with Loial, Thom, Moiraine, Lan, Egwene al'Vere, Nynaeve al'Meara, Mat Cauthon

Moiraine and the Others moved to a different pace, according to Rand's point of view. As if Mierin's True World itself is a Dream, a Mirror World.


The Ways once a place of life & safety, yet since have turned into a corrupted Mirror World?


A Dream like place, which was altered by the touch of the Dark One's Blight? Remember at least three Waygates fell to the Blight. At least one of which is operational, the Malkier Ways. If a gate can open, that space is corrupted by the Blight.
This same Dream like place, which was also altered by the touch of the tainted shadow of Aridhol (and Mashadar)? The same mechanism which corrupted the Ways via the Dark One, existed in Aridhol itself.


The Black Wind/Mashadar is a Creature of both of the True World and a Mirror World of the Ways.

In essence, the Black Wind/Mashadar is a nightmare combination of a Mirror World, True World, the Dark One's touch, the hatred created at Aridhol (no soul left, no light, blacker than black).



Now let's take a third slightly alternate point of view, remember the Eelfinn?

I’ll give them ‘thought and memory.’ ” He winced, scrubbing a hand through his hair. “Light, but my head hurts. It’s spinning, like a thousand bits of dreams, and every one a needle.

TSR, chapter 26 “The Dedicated” – Rand al’Thor point of view, with Matrim Cauthon

Why does Matrim Cauthon compare his Eelfinn given memories to Dreams?



Are the Eelfinn simply just another Dream World?
A Dream World, a Parallel World which the Dark One can access?
Otherwise, why should mentioning something close to the Dark One be off limits, with the Aelfinn & Eelfinn?



In the end, she told him of the ter’angreal, the twisted doorway that held answers on its other side. It was the dangers she emphasized, the consequences of foolish questions, or those touching the Shadow, the dangers even Aes Sedai might not know. She was more than flattered that he had come to her, but he had to show a little sense. “You must remember this, Mat. Frivolous questions can get you killed, so if you do use it, you will have to be serious for a change. And you mustn’t ask any questions that touch the Shadow.”


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 8 "Hard Heads" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with Matrim Cauthon




Whereas generally the Dark One cannot access Mirror Worlds?
And yet, look at one Mirror World exception that is the Ways--touched by the Dark One via the Blight and the evil of Aridhol.

Marie Curie 7
07-16-2011, 12:41 AM
I'm speaking about the originals brought over long before this happened when those who had the knowledge used Portal Stones to acquire them. Obviously, once the Grolm were in Randland, then a Mirror World of Randland like that which Rand visited could reflect Grolm.

However, that's not important for now. I'm talking about the first Grolm to be brought to this world to fight Shadowspawn. They were not native to Randland.

So, what is the native world of the Grolm of which there was a reflection to be traveled to via a Portal Stone?

Well, there is also this:

Thus Spake The Creator - Other Lands

Q: Were the Seanchan animals created before or after the Shadowspawn?

RJ: They are the 'exotics'. They were brought to Randland from parallel dimensions (like in the Portal Stones). When Rand saw grolm in the Portal Stone world, he was seeing them in the native 'land'.

The suggestion here is that the native world of the grolm is the Mirror World that Rand and company visited.

Tamyrlin
07-16-2011, 01:25 AM
Well, there is also this:

The suggestion here is that the native world of the grolm is the Mirror World that Rand and company visited.

I wish we had more of an idea of what exactly he is saying in that quote. I'd read that statement to mean that those Grolm Rand saw were native to that Mirror World (as in, no one brought those Grolm to that Mirror World) as any of this Mirror World inhabitants would be considered native. I don't read that to mean that all Grolm originated from that Mirror World, which would be the oddest explanation...considering Mirror Worlds, according to RJ's canon, are past, present and future reflections of reality.

And this brings us to the second point of contention. Inhabitants of Mirror Worlds cannot enter the Real World (normally - I'm not going to argue the Pattern breaking down scenario.) There are thousands (if not millions) of "Rands" in Mirror Worlds. Rand was able to use the Portal Stone and integrate himself and his party into those worlds in such a way that they lived their other life scenarios. However, there is one static symbol for Randland copied across thousands of Mirror World Portal Stones (which we saw with Rand's usage of a Portal Stone in the Mirror World to return)...yet we only have one Rand, real Rand, in Randland. One Soul. One LTT. Why don't we have tens or hundreds of Rand's, or let's say Lanfear or Ishamael traveling from Mirror Worlds into the True World? It would and should happen, if it was possible for Mirror World inhabitants to exist in Real Worlds.

GonzoTheGreat
07-16-2011, 04:58 AM
There were grolm in the mirror world that Rand, Loial, and Hurin visited. In that iteration of history Hawkwing lost the great battle against the Trollocs, so he never sent his son across the ocean to conquer the other continent, yet grolm nevertheless ended up on the mainland despite the lack of Seanchan to bring them across.But there were Seanchan in that mirror world, they just weren't ruled by Luthair's descendants. And the Shadow would have found a way to attack that land mass, after Randland was eaten. So then there would be another conflict with Grolm and such on one side, and Trollocs and Fades on the other. Apparently, this time the Trollocs ate the humans, and the Grolm then ate the Trollocs.
All it would take to explain the presence of the Grolm where they were found is one counter-attack expedition which released a couple of breeding pairs in Randland.

Then again, I still prefer my own explanation: the Grolm were brought there and controlled by Lanfear. That explains how she could fight one off with a simple stick. It also explains how that last (big) pack appeared so conveniently when they were needed to harry Rand to Lanfear's goal: they did not exist, but were merely an illusion formed with the OP.

The Unreasoner
07-16-2011, 06:10 AM
I'm speaking about the originals brought over long before this happened when those who had the knowledge used Portal Stones to acquire them. Obviously, once the Grolm were in Randland, then a Mirror World of Randland like that which Rand visited could reflect Grolm.

However, that's not important for now. I'm talking about the first Grolm to be brought to this world to fight Shadowspawn. They were not native to Randland.

So, what is the native world of the Grolm of which there was a reflection to be traveled to via a Portal Stone?

They could be native to Randland. Maybe they just went extinct in the Breaking, or earlier. Of course, there is still the question of whether the grolm were native to the visited world or if Lanfear brought them.

Me, I think maybe they were brought from a more primitive mirror world (branched off before extinction) to the mirror world visited as a last ditch effort to turn back the Trollocs.

FelixPax
07-16-2011, 08:56 AM
And this brings us to the second point of contention. Inhabitants of Mirror Worlds cannot enter the Real World (normally - I'm not going to argue the Pattern breaking down scenario.)

Where does one's essence go, call it a soul, after one's flesh dies in a given Mirror World?


It's as if Robert Jordan drunk from Ovid's creation of Metamorphosis.


Transitions of state are one constant. Changes.

Soul to Flesh
Flesh to T'A'R; in Birgitte's case Heroes of the Horn are bound to T'A'R
T'A'R to Flesh; when Moghedien ripped Birgitte's soul out of T'A'R to a World of the Flesh
Flesh to Stone; for many inhabitants of Aridhol--even Stone screams upon death (LoC; ToM)
Mashadar/Black Wind to Flesh; when Mordeth took on Fain's body & memories



Transitions of place, time. Changes.

Non-Flesh souls to World of the Flesh; when Horn of Valere is sounded by Matrim Cauthon
Flesh to T'A'R; when Egwene al'Vere traveled in the Flesh in the T'A'R from Cairhien to Salidar on Bela.



Theoretically, it should be possible to go from T'A'R to a mirror world or even to a parallel world. Perhaps that's why it's so dangerous to go to T'A'R in the flesh, one teeny-tiny mistake and you don't come out in your own world?



I suspect one reason why going to the T'A'R in the Flesh is considered so dangerous, is because in the Flesh one possesses more influence & power to change outcomes.


What is real is not real. What is not real is real. Flesh is a dream, and dreams have flesh.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 43 "Shadowbrothers" -- Perrin point of view; Hopper speaking in a Wolf Dream to Perrin.


In essence, what Selene calls the True World to Hopper is really a World of Dreams. To Hopper the T'A'R or Wolf Dream is the True World, not what Selene/Mierin/Lanfear calls the True World.


Moghedien, Birgitte, Hopper ironically enough seem to know more, than Mierin does of the Tel'aran'rhiod.

Lanfear always claimed Tel’aran’rhiod for her own, but Moghedien could do things here far beyond Lanfear, though she has not Lanfear’s strength in the world of flesh. I think she would not take the risk of confronting Lanfear.”


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 52 "Need" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view; with Birgitte


So if a person visits the T'A'R in the Flesh, it's as if a DREAM (person) has entered into the Hopper's version of the True World--what Perrin calls the 'Wolf Dream'.



Blunt conclusion is possessing Flesh itself is a Dream. All worlds with Flesh are a Dream.


Sarene Nemdahl of the White Ajah, the Amayar, the Aiel Wise Ones, Aiel Clan Chiefs, Gaul, Lothair Mantelar in 'The Way of the Light', and Moghedien via a compelled Prophet Masema all agree. Flesh is a Dream, an Illusion.

Your body is only clothing. Your flesh will wither, but you are your heart and mind, and they do not change except to grow stronger.”


Winter's Hearth, Prologue "Snow" -- Elayne point of view; Wise One Viendre speaking




The Ways is a Mirror World, which has changed from a friendly 'World of the Flesh' to a World hostile to Flesh.





However, there is one static symbol for Randland copied across thousands of Mirror World Portal Stones (which we saw with Rand's usage of a Portal Stone in the Mirror World to return)...yet we only have one Rand, real Rand, in Randland. One Soul. One LTT. Why don't we have tens or hundreds of Rand's, or let's say Lanfear or Ishamael traveling from Mirror Worlds into the True World? It would and should happen, if it was possible for Mirror World inhabitants to exist in Real Worlds.


Two copies of Matrim Cauthon's soul exist in the Flesh. Now.

One of whom readers known as Matrim Cauthon, another of whom readers known as 'Young Mat' or Olver.


Though if readers consider a non-Flesh version of the same soul, readers have seen three versions of Matrim Cauthon's soul in WoT.


Third, being Artur Hawkwing non-Flesh existence at Falme. He came, when called by the Horn of Valere.


This very line line of analysis exists for many other Character's as well. Be it, of Two Rivers folk, Elayne, Lan and others. Even for Rand al'Thor, see The Shadow Rising, Chapter 2 'Whirlpools in the Pattern. Remember Rand al'Thor fighting his own reflections?

Tamyrlin
07-16-2011, 11:49 AM
They could be native to Randland. Maybe they just went extinct in the Breaking, or earlier. Of course, there is still the question of whether the grolm were native to the visited world or if Lanfear brought them.

Me, I think maybe they were brought from a more primitive mirror world (branched off before extinction) to the mirror world visited as a last ditch effort to turn back the Trollocs.

Considering this Mirror World is one of the hardcoded symbols, people and such could be brought into the Mirror World, which led many of us to question whether or not Lanfear was controlling the Grolm and whether or not she brought them. However, I think RJ answered that with the quote Marie gave; those Grolm were part of the Mirror World, just as the plants, the land, etc, Lanfear did not bring them (although it really seems like Lanfear is using the Grolm to force Rand's hand...which leaves open still the possibility that Lanfear may know how to manipulate Mirror Worlds.)

If we consider the Portal Stone trip Rand took to Toman Head, it is clear that Mirror Worlds can be manipulated; it wouldn't surprise me that Lanfear is well versed in Mirror World tech.

But again, there is no proof animals can be taken from a Mirror World and brought to a Real World and that such can survive and propagate (the BWB says Parallel World). Even circumstantial evidence would be easier to use to counter that argument. Consider the fact that such worlds are reflections and have varying degrees of insubstantiality compared to the Real World.

Instead, there is proof that inhabitants of Parallel Worlds can travel to Randland and survive and propagate their species such as the Ogier. Therefore, the most common sense approach to this answer is for the Grolm to have been brought back from a Parallel World, as we are told. The only problem some pose has to do with Jordan saying that the Portal Stones connect to Mirror Worlds. They do connect to Mirror Worlds. However, they obviously connect to at least one Real World too. I don't think Jordan's answer denies the possibility for Portal Stones to have been created on other Parallel Worlds to their own Mirror Worlds. Maybe some questions at Brandon and Team Jordan for clarification? Thoughts on these? Suggestions.

Introduction: There is some confusion about Mirror Worlds and Parallel Worlds and there relation to the Wheel. We are told Mirror Worlds are infinite past, present and future reflections of events that branch off of the Real World. As for Parallel Worlds, we are not told much beyond the fact that they are other worlds akin to the Real World, where soul'd creatures/people live, such as the Ogier and Finn. Robert Jordan has said that they are different, MW's and PW's.

1. We know real flesh and blood people/creatures with souls inhabit Parallel Worlds and that such can travel to Randland, as we know occurred with the Ogier. What about Mirror World inhabitants?
1a. Do they also have souls?
1b. Can they travel to (or be brought back) and live and survive and propagate their species in a Real World?
1c. Lanfear implied to Loial that one could visit a Mirror World and meet oneself? However, we see Rand and his company become themselves in a myriad of lives when Rand traveled to Toman Head via Portal Stone. Was Lanfear wrong? Or was Lanfear talking about "meeting" oneself as in, becoming oneself?
1d. Rand became himself, he did not become a horse or Mat or Verin in those other Mirror Worlds. So, in what way is Rand connected to his Mirror World reflections? Is each Mirror World variation of oneself connected by the soul? Or is something controlled by the Wheel?

2. If someone walks into TAR in the flesh, we know they can't imagine a seed and bring it out of TAR with them. Are TAR and Mirror Worlds akin in this way?
2a. Can a Real person visit a Mirror World, dig up a plant and bring it back to the Real World and plant it and grow that Mirror World plant in the Real World?
2b. Are Mirror World inhabitants flesh and blood and genetically alike to their Real World counterparts? If so, is it possible for a Real World person to impregnate a Mirror World person?

3. We know of Parallel Worlds such as the Finn World and the Ogier World. On any of the many Parallel Worlds in the cosmos can Portal Stones be found?

The Unreasoner
07-16-2011, 12:29 PM
Considering this Mirror World is one of the hardcoded symbols, people and such could be brought into the Mirror World, which led many of us to question whether or not Lanfear was controlling the Grolm and whether or not she brought them. However, I think RJ answered that with the quote Marie gave; those Grolm were part of the Mirror World, just as the plants, the land, etc, Lanfear did not bring them (although it really seems like Lanfear is using the Grolm to force Rand's hand...which leaves open still the possibility that Lanfear may know how to manipulate Mirror Worlds.)
It's hardcoded only as far as the stones are concerned. Mirror Worlds exist that cannot be touched by the stones. Unless the stones were placed by the Creator I don't think the symbol means anything except an identifier set by the makers of the stones.

Lanfear may be using a weave similar to the Blue's for insects to control the grolm. Although I agree her knowledge is likely very thorough here.

But again, there is no proof animals can be taken from a Mirror World and brought to a Real World and that such can survive and propagate (the BWB says Parallel World). Even circumstantial evidence would be easier to use to counter that argument. Consider the fact that such worlds are reflections and have varying degrees of insubstantiality compared to the Real World.
Rand and co. were brought from a mirror world to the real world. Rand, at least, has 'propogated'.

But I assume you meant animals originating in the mirror worlds. There is no definitive evidence either way, but I feel some points are suggestive...
1. Some mirror worlds are substantial enough to support life of creatures from the real world.
2. The "exotics", are far more like animals of randland in nature and abilities than they are like the finn or the ogier. For instance, they seem to be fully explainable by randland biology, unlike the finn and their abilities, or treesinging and the stedding.
3. The most stable mirror worlds have worlds nearly indistinguishable from the true world.

there is proof that inhabitants of Parallel Worlds can travel to Randland and survive and propagate their species such as the Ogier.
My main doubt with your method to get grolm into Randland didn't center on this issue, but rather my doubt that mirror worlds of all worlds are linked

1. We know real flesh and blood people/creatures with souls inhabit Parallel Worlds and that such can travel to Randland, as we know occurred with the Ogier. What about Mirror World inhabitants? Do they also have souls? Can they travel to and live and survive and propagate their species in a Real World?
It may just be one soul, just most strongly manifest in the incarnation inhabiting the true world. other 'rands' and whatnot may only command a proportion of the soul relative to the probability of a world's chance to exist. That could partially explain why they don't just load up on superchannelers-any doubles would be absorbed, like the mirror apparitions.

2. If someone walks into TAR in the flesh, we know they can't imagine a seed and bring it out of TAR with them. Are TAR and Mirror Worlds akin in this way? Or can I dig up a plant in a Mirror World, bring it back to the Real World with me and plant it and grow that Mirror World plant in the Real World?
Rand and co. found at least hydration, and if the lost accepted are in a mirror world, they likely found at least that if not more.

3. We know of Parallel Worlds such as the Finn World and the Ogier World. On any of the many Parallel Worlds in the cosmos can Portal Stones be found?

I could be wrong, but I believed that the stones were a randland creation. other worlds could have something comparable though for interworld travel

The Unreasoner
07-16-2011, 12:38 PM
Long shot? I'd say it's damn near guaranteed. Or at least, that's been my impression for years and years.

Lol, I meant something like Perrin and the pack storming the Tower of Ghenjei (not that, not specifically, but that degree of long-shotness)

and I did like your idea of the mirror worlds as the source of prophecy...like the summation of event occurrences as a proportion of the infinite possibilities to describe what is 'probable' or 'certain'. very cool. very plausible.

FelixPax
07-16-2011, 02:28 PM
1a. Do they also have souls?

Suggestion is yes.

See what Lan answers to Nynaeve al'Meara during her Accepted Test.


Lan turned her to face him. “What troubles you? You must tell me if I’m to help.”

“This is not real.”

“Not real? Before I met you, I thought nothing except the sword was real. Look around you, Nynaeve. It is real. Whatever you want to be real, we can make real together, you and I.”

Wonderingly, she did look around. The meadow was still there. The Seven Towers still stood over the Thousand Lakes. The arch was gone, but nothing else had changed. I could stay here. With Lan. Nothing has changed. Her thoughts turned. Nothing has changed. Egwene is alone in the White Tower. Rand will channel the Power and go mad. And what of Mat and Perrin? Can they take back any shred of their lives? And Moiraine, who tore all our lives apart, still walks free.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 23 "The Testing" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view


Somebody seems be to ignoring examples, I've given...




2. If someone walks into TAR in the flesh, we know they can't imagine a seed and bring it out of TAR with them. Are TAR and Mirror Worlds akin in this way?

Remember when Moghedien ripped out Birgitte?
Remember Birgitte's Silver Arrow?

Explain how a Silver Arrow, moved from an idea in the T'A'R to a physical item in a "World of the Flesh"?

Moghedien wasn't even walking in the Flesh in the T'A'R when Birgitte and her Silver Arrow were ripped out. Moghedien had dreamed herself into the T'A'R, her body was located in Salidar, Altara.


Somebody's not paying attention... :rolleyes: :(

Tamyrlin
07-16-2011, 03:23 PM
It's hardcoded only as far as the stones are concerned. Mirror Worlds exist that cannot be touched by the stones. Unless the stones were placed by the Creator I don't think the symbol means anything except an identifier set by the makers of the stones.


That is one of my points. The Stones can and do enable travel to more than just the worlds symbolized by static symbols on the Stones. We see Randland related symbols, but that does not preclude the Stones being used to travel to other Real Worlds (such as the Ogier world or other Parallel Worlds.) In fact, as we've seen with some Portal Stones, the symbols no longer exist. Instead, it's the knowledge of the Line that is important. If we could see the Lines that connect the worlds, we would see that it is more likely the location that is an anchor, and the Stone somehow marks and makes use of that specific location.


Lanfear may be using a weave similar to the Blue's for insects to control the grolm. Although I agree her knowledge is likely very thorough here.


I would theorize that Mirror Worlds are more susceptible to influence from Real World visitors, similar to TAR.


Rand and co. were brought from a mirror world to the real world. Rand, at least, has 'propogated'.

But I assume you meant animals originating in the mirror worlds. There is no definitive evidence either way, but I feel some points are suggestive...
1. Some mirror worlds are substantial enough to support life of creatures from the real world.
2. The "exotics", are far more like animals of randland in nature and abilities than they are like the finn or the ogier. For instance, they seem to be fully explainable by randland biology, unlike the finn and their abilities, or treesinging and the stedding.
3. The most stable mirror worlds have worlds nearly indistinguishable from the true world.


Heh. I'm talking reproduction. Real Rand returning from a Mirror World would not be considered multiplication by reproduction. :)

The Finn and Ogier worlds are likely two (three) of thousands (if not more) Parallel Worlds. And it is likely that those that acquired the Grolm were looking for worlds that would allow for their survival in Randland, so the fact that they can survive in Randland doesn't instruct the answer to that question.

Stable Mirror Worlds are nearly indistinguishable...but they are distinguishable. The differences are important in my opinion.


My main doubt with your method to get grolm into Randland didn't center on this issue, but rather my doubt that mirror worlds of all worlds are linked


Well, technically they are all linked by TAR, but we can visit that later. My explanation would be that we are tending to think about Mirror Worlds a bit to narrowly in this regard: it would stand to reason that if I went to a Mirror World with a spaceship, I could travel between Parallel Worlds within this Mirror instance. In other words, the Pattern is Mirrored.

But it is true that I cannot prove the Ancients that built Portal Stones, also went to Parallel Worlds and built Portal Stones, that's just one theory.


It may just be one soul, just most strongly manifest in the incarnation inhabiting the true world. other 'rands' and whatnot may only command a proportion of the soul relative to the probability of a world's chance to exist. That could partially explain why they don't just load up on superchannelers-any doubles would be absorbed, like the mirror apparitions.


It's one soul, in my opinion, and what happens to Mirror Rand's is irrelevant. Mirror Worlds are meant to replicate conditions if something other than reality occurred (or if what becomes reality occurs). Rand dies in thousands of Mirror Worlds, yet it has no affect on the Real World. I'd support the concept that the Mirror World Rand's share a thread identity, seems a decent way for the Wheel to keep track of them all, but a part of the soul? That seems odd. There is one soul and we are not led to believe that you can split it up in pieces, but certainly the Wheel must keep track in some manner for Rand to be able to become himself when he travels to world's where a Mirror Rand lives.

But I would disagree with the belief (not saying you believe this, just extrapolating) that if Rand died in the Real World, that a Mirror World Rand traveling to the Real World could become the Real Rand. I do like the absorption concept and have entertained the mirror apparitions as comparable, but I find that gives MW entities more viability than they actually have.


Rand and co. found at least hydration, and if the lost accepted are in a mirror world, they likely found at least that if not more.


I'd have to go back and read it, but I thought they mentioned that it was less than something they could survive on indefinitely.


I could be wrong, but I believed that the stones were a randland creation. other worlds could have something comparable though for interworld travel

They are...well, at least we believe they were...hmm, now I wonder. Considering the technology used to discover and create such travel occurred long before the Age of Legends, it does make me now wonder if such technology was brought by another race from a Parallel World...heh, thanks, fun idea. However, we are not told how Portal Stones were created nor are we told how those individuals found MW's. (I'd surmise it had to do with studies done by Dreamers and Dreamwalking in the GOI and TAR Proper.) This is why I believe the question is important, while I also believe Jordan did not leave a specific answer as to whether Portal Stones were also created on other worlds or if the ability originated from contact with another civilization.

padfoot89
07-16-2011, 03:34 PM
Graendal's comment at the end of ToM is interesting.
She speaks of the MW as a way to hide. Not sure whether she meant hide from Moridin or SH. Also I wonder if she planned to travel to a portal stone and then go or perhaps she knows a way to Travel directly to one.

Tamyrlin
07-16-2011, 03:53 PM
Suggestion is yes.

See what Lan answers to Nynaeve al'Meara during her Accepted Test.

Somebody seems be to ignoring examples, I've given...


You likely missed this quote from Jordan:

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Aubrey: During the raising tests for Accepted and Aes Sedai, are the ladies taking the tests actually inside of the World of Dreams?
Jordan: No...well, I am not going to say where they are for the tests for Accepted, that might be a RAFO, probably not, but it might be. For the test for Aes Sedai, they are in effect inside what you might call an uber-virtual reality device where what happens is entirely controlled in this case by the sisters controlling the device, but it is a virtual reality that is so terrific that it is reality for you. You die, you are dead. No game over, start again. You are dead.

Virtual Reality. So, I disagree. They do not have souls, is what the answer will be, in my opinion. And, I think it's clear that these Ter'angreal were created through studying Mirror Worlds, Portal Stones and TAR. Mirror Worlds to me are the Wheel's uber virtual reality device.


Remember when Moghedien ripped out Birgitte?
Remember Birgitte's Silver Arrow?

Explain how a Silver Arrow, moved from an idea in the T'A'R to a physical item in a "World of the Flesh"?

Moghedien wasn't even walking in the Flesh in the T'A'R when Birgitte and her Silver Arrow were ripped out. Moghedien had dreamed herself into the T'A'R, her body was located in Salidar, Altara.


Somebody's not paying attention... :rolleyes: :(

DragonCon 28 June 1997 - SciFi Channel Chat

Kjell: Is it possible to go to the Dream World in the flesh, and take something with you out through the gateway?
RJ: No.

RJ's blog 20 January 2006 "IT'S BEEN A WHILE"

For NapoleonCoplin, the part of a Dreamer that enters Tel’aran’rhiod can be thought of as the Dreamer’s consciousness, but it is any case not corporate. That is, it has no physical reality outside of Tel’aran’rhiod. A Dreamer might make a gateway from the Unseen World to the Waking World, but there would be nothing physical that could step through and exist outside of the Unseen World.

Birgitte existing in the Real World is an anomaly. Normally, nothing should be able to come out. Moghedien used TAR in an attempt, in my opinion, to destroy her soul (otherwise it was stupid if she would just die and then return to TAR.) I wouldn't be surprised if when Birgitte dies, she never returns to the soul pool (might be worth a question.) She wouldn't and shouldn't have survived if not for Elayne. And according to Jordan's answers it shouldn't be possible.

The Unreasoner
07-16-2011, 07:32 PM
In fact, as we've seen with some Portal Stones, the symbols no longer exist. Instead, it's the knowledge of the Line that is important. If we could see the Lines that connect the worlds, we would see that it is more likely the location that is an anchor, and the Stone somehow marks and makes use of that specific location.
Well I agree there. After all, if the corresponding hill blew up in one timeline, where would the stone be placed? But there are other factors to consider as well, I would think, such as history and natural laws.

I see the Stones more like a train system than a bus system (like I see the ways). You can just build a bus station (grow a waygate) and it is accessible by any station. Trains require tracks connecting any new station to the already existing network, and some routes require a transferring station (like MacArthur on BART, or any of the 42nd street stations in NYC). I just don't think a mirror world of a parallel world would have the most basic requirements for a connecting node on the randland portal stone network. Which is not to say that the technology behind the portal stones couldn't offer an alternative for travel between parallels.

Heh. I'm talking reproduction.
Lol, yeah, hence my Rand comment. But I do think the idea that the exotics originated in Randland and simply went extinct in the true world is plausible, and rendered likely after looking at the biological evidence. While there could be a myriad of parallel worlds, the few we know of have notably different physical laws. Although I will concede that 2+ is hardly a compellingly large sample.

Well, technically they are all linked by TAR, but we can visit that later. My explanation would be that we are tending to think about Mirror Worlds a bit to narrowly in this regard: it would stand to reason that if I went to a Mirror World with a spaceship, I could travel between Parallel Worlds within this Mirror instance. In other words, the Pattern is Mirrored.
I would think that it would be impossible for a mirror world to support travel to a parallel world's mirror worlds, simply because I can think of no way to pair mirrors of different parallel worlds. Maybe only one Tower of Ghenjei and one Book of Translation can function, and the rest simply do not exist or do nothing (or just open into oblivion).


I'd have to go back and read it, but I thought they mentioned that it was less than something they could survive on indefinitely.
It tasted like it was distilled, iirc, so maybe it was lacking electrolytes. But I wouldn't make any definitive conclusions based on evidence from a relatively insubstantial world.

GonzoTheGreat
07-17-2011, 05:08 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if when Birgitte dies, she never returns to the soul pool (might be worth a question.)Read and find out. :p
"I am Min Farshaw," she replied curtly. This was Birgitte Silverbow, hero of a hundred legends? The woman was foul- mouthed! And what did she mean, Silverbow was dead? The woman was standing right in front of her! Besides, those multitudes of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man. Legend or no legend, that superior air irritated her no end. "Elayne, Aviendha and I just bonded a Warder," she said without thinking. "And if Elayne is celebrating a little, well, you better think twice about storming in, or you'll be the one sitting tender."

Tamyrlin
07-17-2011, 11:18 AM
Well I agree there. After all, if the corresponding hill blew up in one timeline, where would the stone be placed? But there are other factors to consider as well, I would think, such as history and natural laws.

I see the Stones more like a train system than a bus system (like I see the ways). You can just build a bus station (grow a waygate) and it is accessible by any station. Trains require tracks connecting any new station to the already existing network, and some routes require a transferring station (like MacArthur on BART, or any of the 42nd street stations in NYC). I just don't think a mirror world of a parallel world would have the most basic requirements for a connecting node on the randland portal stone network. Which is not to say that the technology behind the portal stones couldn't offer an alternative for travel between parallels.


I like the Train Station analogy, although I would add a Snapshot analogy to establish the schedule for the train station. And it would be Snapshots of the entire Pattern, threads, etc. at that moment that a Mirror instance branches off, not just the world itself. In other words, I could go to the moon while in the Mirror World iteration; there is a "sun" for the world; while in the Mirror World you can see stars. I don't see the stops along the train being just the Train Station. I think you can get off the Line and you have the entirety of the Pattern as it progressed through "time" from that turning point on that World.

Of course, this doesn't help me get Portal Stones on Parallel Worlds; it would be interesting to find out if a gateway could be opened from a Mirror World into a Real World. Hmm, I'll add that to the list.


Lol, yeah, hence my Rand comment. But I do think the idea that the exotics originated in Randland and simply went extinct in the true world is plausible, and rendered likely after looking at the biological evidence. While there could be a myriad of parallel worlds, the few we know of have notably different physical laws. Although I will concede that 2+ is hardly a compellingly large sample.


I can appreciate the Exotics as extinct animals of the First Age. However, taking such Exotics from this Mirror World that Rand visited (let's say), I just don't believe there is evidence that such unsubstantial reality can be taken by Portal Stone back into reality where it could survive. Also, we are told a Parallel World was where the Exotics were found, and that the manner of how they were acquired was lost. I guess you could link the Exotics are extinct animals of the First Age and Ancients knew how to make unsubstantial reality into reality and attempt to explain it that way...and If we had been told that the Exotics came from a Mirror World, then I'd agree this would be the best explanation, but we are told they came from a Parallel World.

Do this for me, run this scenario: a Portal Stone was used and the Exotics were taken from a Parallel World. Theorize how that would be possible with everything we know so far.


I would think that it would be impossible for a mirror world to support travel to a parallel world's mirror worlds, simply because I can think of no way to pair mirrors of different parallel worlds. Maybe only one Tower of Ghenjei and one Book of Translation can function, and the rest simply do not exist or do nothing (or just open into oblivion).


I addressed this above with my Snapshot analogy. I believe you can visit other worlds and see how they progressed within that Mirror World. You brought up the support in your response. Ter'angreal doorways still exist in Mirror Worlds. Crossroads still exist like Ghenjei. The Book of Translation still exists. I would argue oblivion, or do nothing when trying to transport a Mirror World object into the Real World, before I'd argue Mirror World inhabitant moving within the Pattern staying within the Mirror would go into oblivion or do nothing.

More Questions

1. If I visit a Mirror World, can I use the Tower of Ghenjei to travel to the Mirror World of that Parallel World?

2. Is it possible to use the One Power to open a gateway from a Mirror World back to the corresponding Real World?

FelixPax
07-17-2011, 12:34 PM
Read and find out. :p

Chuckles, we both thought of the very same Min aura vision of Birgitte's future. :)

Tamyrlin didn't remember....



Birgitte existing in the Real World is an anomaly. Normally, nothing should be able to come out.

Really now, you believe that?

Anomaly are facts. They are real.


This quotation answer given by Robert Jordan is misleading:

DragonCon 28 June 1997 - SciFi Channel Chat

Kjell: Is it possible to go to the Dream World in the flesh, and take something with you out through the gateway?
RJ: No.

Birgitte and her Silver Arror were not ripped out of the T'A'R by using a Saidin, Saidar or True Power created Gateway.

Birgitte was ripped out of the T'A'R, a "World of Dreams" to a "World of Flesh" by Moghedien's using an alternative mechanism. A mechanism, I called 'Imagining'.

Channeling is not what powers the Wheel of Time Worlds. 'Imagination' created by a 'Strong Mind', is far more powerful.

The existence of this mechanism of a Strong Mind using Imagination to create Reality, is one reason Ishamael/Moridin has repeatedly attempted to break the will of Rand al'Thor throughout the series. If Rand al'Thor loses hope, Ishamael/Moridin believes that the Dark One can win.


Of course, there's a slight problem that Rand al'Thor is not the Dragon. Rand's the Plow of Prophecy, who follows the path and reins of the True Dragon. What pulls a Plow down a path or field? A Mule. The True Dragon is Robert Jordan's Mule.


The True Dragon possesses a Stronger Mind than even Rand al'Thor possesses. The True Dragon is a Male Dreamer.


Birgitte knows exactly who the True Dragon is.
Even Nynaeve al'Meara never believed Rand al'Thor is the Dragon. Nynaeve believed Moiraine helped to tied this claim of Dragon to Rand al'Thor.



Virtual Reality. So, I disagree. They do not have souls, is what the answer will be, in my opinion. And, I think it's clear that these Ter'angreal were created through studying Mirror Worlds, Portal Stones and TAR. Mirror Worlds to me are the Wheel's uber virtual reality device.

An uber-virtual reality device or World controlled by Aes Sedai who lack a 'Strong Mind'. Women who do imagine this reality as true. That Accepted Test device is similar to another scene when Rand imagines himself fighting his reflection in the Stone in Tear, with Berelain in the room (TSR book). Only after Rand believed and imagined the reflects gone, did his three identical reflections disappear. Rand believed in the power of Saidar, then believed that the reflections were not real. The Aes Sedai during both Moiraine's and Nynaeve's Accepted Tests did pretty much the exact same thing. They imagined it, then imagined it as not being true.

A "Strong Mind" can create reality from nothing, but thought itself. Using "Need" is one method create or alter reality.



Well, technically they are all linked by TAR, but we can visit that later. My explanation would be that we are tending to think about Mirror Worlds a bit to narrowly in this regard: it would stand to reason that if I went to a Mirror World with a spaceship, I could travel between Parallel Worlds within this Mirror instance. In other words, the Pattern is Mirrored.


False. Mirror Worlds are not all technically connected together by the same T'A'R.


The Dark One is touching a 'World of Dream' and a 'World of Flesh' called Earth (by Lan). Yet Graendal and others have stated that not every Mirror World is touched by the Dark One. The Dark One is sealed away in many Mirror Worlds, be they of Flesh or Dream.

Earth is a Mirror World.
The Ways is a Mirror World.


Mirror Worlds exist of the past, present and future. These Worlds are similar to a 'Jordan Curve' model--see French Mathematician Camille Jordan's work written 1893.




How is a Parallel World any different from a Mirror World?


Facts seems to suggest that Parallel Worlds, are places where 'World of Dreams' and 'World of Flesh' are one in the same. A combination or union if you will. Time & Space exists as one in a Parallel World.

Eelfinn, Aelfinn realms are Flesh Dreams.




So where are Moridin's Shadowspawn coming from then? A number larger than the Blight can support, according to Brandon Sanderson's comments during his ToM book tour. Mordin's importing Shadowspawn from somewhere else.

Daekyras
07-17-2011, 01:00 PM
My head hurts. Real Physics is so much less complicated!

Anywho, I have a question and sorry if it's covered elsewhere.

Portal stones link to other places in Randland. That makes perfect sense. Useful for quick travel etc and along the lines of the Bus stations mentioned earlier.

Why do they connect to Mirror worlds?

We know they do, I just want to know why someone would want them to....

The Unreasoner
07-17-2011, 10:25 PM
Do this for me, run this scenario: a Portal Stone was used and the Exotics were taken from a Parallel World. Theorize how that would be possible with everything we know so far.

I can’t tell if this is one of those ‘traps’ that you mods do… get us younglings to recognize our logical missteps by setting a task that better highlights the issue, like terez demanding a supporting quote that she knows does not exist. Very falionesque, lol. Well, lazy minds must be exercised, and I’m not busy at the moment, so I’ll give it a shot.
I’ll start by following a single line of thought that I feel raises some of the most significant points on this issue.
RJ has stated that the ‘exotics’ are from parallel worlds, and brought by Portal Stone in the BWB:
These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn. While the creatures’ effectiveness was not recorded, it was during this same period that all remaining Shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated. The creatures remained, their care and training surviving through all the political upheavals until Luthair’s arrival. The knowledge that allowed their procurement by way of the Portal Stones, however, was lost.
A similar answer from a more reliable source (a Q&A)…
Q: Were the Seanchan animals created before or after the Shadowspawn?
RJ: They are the 'exotics'. They were brought to Randland from parallel dimensions (like in the Portal Stones). When Rand saw grolm in the Portal Stone world, he was seeing them in the native 'land'.
In bold are the potentially debatable points, raising the following questions…
1: Do Parallel Dimensions=Parallel Worlds?
2: Does “like in the Portal Stones”=”as is the case with the Portal Stones?”
3: To what degree could the Portal Stone world be considered the grolm’s “native” land?
A seemingly contradictory quote:
Tamyrlin: This is in reference to a previous question I asked you about Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds, today I believe, and you mentioned they are different. And the question I had about Portal Stones was, do Portal Stones lead to Parallel Worlds, Mirror Worlds, or both?
Jordan: They lead to Mirror Worlds, the Portal Stones can take you to Mirror Worlds, not to Parallels, which are separate.
And so the challenge becomes reconciling the exotics’ origins in a parallel world with the fact that they were brought by portal stone.
The only other bit of evidence I can find that seems relevant is below:
Matt: Okay, so yeah this is the question I’ll ask, you make a good point. Are there worlds and dimensions that exist outside of the Pattern?
Brandon: Ok, see that’s the question you should be asking. I mean, you should be asking it, but it doesn’t mean I’m going to answer it. [laughter] But that’s at the core of the question. I’m going to discuss it without giving you the answer. I like to do this because I think it frames the question without giving you too much information that I have that I don’t think is appropriate to share right now. Extrapolations of this question get us to: is there one Dragon for all different Parallels or are they all different Dragons? Traveling through the Portal Stone seems to indicate that there are many different lives Rand could have led. The same thing happens with several of the ter’angreal that people go through. The question then is, are those all separate universes? Do we have a multiverse sort of concept? Or are they possibilities? And do these worlds all exist, or could exist...what is the difference? In some of those Rand failed. So, is Rand the Dragon in all of them, or is Rand not the Dragon in some of them? What happens in the ones where Rand failed? Are they real worlds? Are those different worlds where there is a different Dark One who then takes over and destroys that world? Or maybe not, maybe he makes it as he wishes. Or are those just possibilities, reflections of this world that don’t really exist except when we touch them? Those are all very good questions. Robert Jordan said that Tel'aran'rhiod is a reflection of all different worlds, which implies other worlds continue to exist. The World of the 'Finns is something different…
Matt: He called it a parallel world.
Brandon: Yes, the parallel world, that one and also the one Rand and Lanfear visited are persistent regardless of someone from this world visiting.
Maria clarifies:
[Maria: I had to look it up to make sure that I had which one was which correct. The ‘finn worlds are parallel worlds, the Ogier world is a parallel world. The place that Lanfear, Rand, Loial and Hurin went to was a Mirror World, as were all of the ones in the Portal Stone incident.]

Again, in bold is the point I find most interesting. It seems to imply a fundamental difference between the worlds viewed en route to Toman Head and the world previously visited by Portal Stone. My best explanation continues my train analogy: in the process of moving the group to Toman Head, Rand inadvertently moved the ‘train’ off the tracks (or it was pushed off by Ishamael), and the group moved through a series of worlds without fully entering them, similar to Egwene viewing another person’s dream without fully entering it. Or perhaps while they were ‘off the tracks’ they were pulled into a virtual reality created by Ishamael.

And so my first hypothesis on how to reconcile parallel origins with Portal Stone travel supposes a strictly controlled ‘misuse’ of the Portal Stones. While I do not think that the portal stones have equivalent counterparts in parallel worlds, there is no reason that the basic technology that allows their use is similarly employed. So I could believe that the ‘lost knowledge’ mentioned by the BWB is on how to, in a sense, ‘push’ the train off the tracks and eventually re-enter a normally inaccessible rail network.

However, the odds of getting the train back on any track seem astronomical, and conceivably only possible with ta’veren caliber luck. My second hypothesis supposes two rail systems, like BART and Amtrak. Amtrak stations are things for interworld travel, like the Tower of Ghenjei and the Book of Translation, while BART is the Portal Stones, intraworld (or world group) only. Perhaps the target parallel has its own Portal Stone-like system, like the New York Subway. Normally, to go from a mirror of a parallel world to a mirror of another parallel, one would first have to use the local system to get to the central hub of Amtrak for the world group, presumably in the true world.

However, there may be no need for a specific pair of parallel worlds to have their Amtrak stations in their true worlds. And so my second hypothesis is that there is some mirror world that has a link to the true parallel target world. For instance, an independently persistent world, lacking a Tower of Ghenjei but instead has the Gate to Tormland. Perhaps in this hypothetical mirror the ‘first contact’ when they began interworld travel was with the keepers of the exotics instead of with the ogier, and this point was when the world branched off from the true world.

So:
True Tormland->Mirror of Randland via Gate to Tormland
Mirror of Randland->True Randland via Portal Stone

Some final thoughts…
Still an issue with the grolm native to a mirror of Randland

One can die of thirst drinking in T’A’R, but can live on what they find in a sufficiently substantial mirror world

As matter is trapped energy, Moghedien likely needed to ‘make’ Birgitte’s physical body with the energy of the OP, but conceivably could have used T’A’R’s ‘projection’ as a blueprint.

Tamyrlin
07-17-2011, 10:58 PM
Birgitte was ripped out of the T'A'R, a "World of Dreams" to a "World of Flesh" by Moghedien's using an alternative mechanism. A mechanism, I called 'Imagining'.


Yes, Felix, it is obviously possible for a soul to leave TAR and become corporeal through the Power of TAR. And as we saw with Birgitte, she would have died soon after if not for Elayne's bond.


False. Mirror Worlds are not all technically connected together by the same T'A'R.


You use "same TAR" as though you are qualifying TAR somehow, which is fine to do, but maybe explain the qualification.

Nothing has disputed Verin's explanation that all Worlds are surrounded by/touched by three constants, TAR being one of them. And she includes Mirror Worlds in these worlds she describes. Your disagreement is noted, yet unsupported.



Earth is a Mirror World.
The Ways is a Mirror World.

Mirror Worlds exist of the past, present and future. These Worlds are similar to a 'Jordan Curve' model--see French Mathematician Camille Jordan's work written 1893.

How is a Parallel World any different from a Mirror World?

This is a fun game. Let me play.

Earth and Parallel Worlds are Real Worlds.
Mirror Worlds are Reflections of Reality
The Ways are Constructed Space within the Void.



So where are Moridin's Shadowspawn coming from then? A number larger than the Blight can support, according to Brandon Sanderson's comments during his ToM book tour. Mordin's importing Shadowspawn from somewhere else.

- Grow them on a Parallel World.
- Export some to a Mirror World, breed them and then Import them.

Tamyrlin
07-17-2011, 11:35 PM
I can’t tell if this is one of those ‘traps’ that you mods do… get us younglings to recognize our logical missteps by setting a task that better highlights the issue, like terez demanding a supporting quote that she knows does not exist. Very falionesque, lol. Well, lazy minds must be exercised, and I’m not busy at the moment, so I’ll give it a shot.


Heh. No, more just wanting to get other people brainstorming ways in which it would be possible assuming a set of facts, instead of debating the definition of those supposed facts (not that the debate of the facts isn't obviously enjoyable too.) :)

And you did it, which is great because you came up with a thought I hadn't considered, which is the part of your post I want to address first.


And so my first hypothesis on how to reconcile parallel origins with Portal Stone travel supposes a strictly controlled ‘misuse’ of the Portal Stones. While I do not think that the portal stones have equivalent counterparts in parallel worlds, there is no reason that the basic technology that allows their use is similarly employed. So I could believe that the ‘lost knowledge’ mentioned by the BWB is on how to, in a sense, ‘push’ the train off the tracks and eventually re-enter a normally inaccessible rail network.

However, the odds of getting the train back on any track seem astronomical, and conceivably only possible with ta’veren caliber luck. My second hypothesis supposes two rail systems, like BART and Amtrak. Amtrak stations are things for interworld travel, like the Tower of Ghenjei and the Book of Translation, while BART is the Portal Stones, intraworld (or world group) only. Perhaps the target parallel has its own Portal Stone-like system, like the New York Subway. Normally, to go from a mirror of a parallel world to a mirror of another parallel, one would first have to use the local system to get to the central hub of Amtrak for the world group, presumably in the true world.

However, there may be no need for a specific pair of parallel worlds to have their Amtrak stations in their true worlds. And so my second hypothesis is that there is some mirror world that has a link to the true parallel target world. For instance, an independently persistent world, lacking a Tower of Ghenjei but instead has the Gate to Tormland. Perhaps in this hypothetical mirror the ‘first contact’ when they began interworld travel was with the keepers of the exotics instead of with the ogier, and this point was when the world branched off from the true world.

So:
True Tormland->Mirror of Randland via Gate to Tormland
Mirror of Randland->True Randland via Portal Stone


What I thought when I read this was: in a Mirror World instance of those that created the Portal Stones, they designed one to connect to Tormland, but in the Real World all were designed to connect to Randland. Or any other variation like you suggested such as connecting with other worlds other than the Ogier and/or the Finns. Fantastic. Seriously. Also, I like how you've incorporated the "lost knowledge" part of that BWB quote, which I think it is important as another alternative explanation.

That's a very fun trip to take down this rabbit hole, much like what an old friend of mine and Theoryland recently suggested to me, Mirror Worlds or Mirror Worlds...which had me going for a while.

Now to reconcile the various quotes.


1: Do Parallel Dimensions=Parallel Worlds?


It's tough. Honestly, his answer to me about Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds and Portal Stones...was shocking for this very reason - RJ used terminology a bit liberally when referring to worlds, dimensions, parallel, etc, from what I can tell over the fifteen years or so of quotes we have. In fact, Verin does so by using the word Parallel in her description of Mirror Worlds to Egwene. They are different, but we are not told exactly how. We need more questions answered; it would be good to compile a separate list from our discussions.


2: Does “like in the Portal Stones”=”as is the case with the Portal Stones?”


Right. This goes back to the first Question, but it should be: Can Mirror Worlds and Parallel Worlds both be consider Parallel Dimensions? I can see him applying that description to both, but it get's confused with Verin's description of Mirror Worlds as running Parallel and then of other Worlds running Perpendicular...I wonder if those are Twisted Mirror Worlds. Bleh.


3: To what degree could the Portal Stone world be considered the grolm’s “native” land?


Native land is an odd use...for a world that reflects a What if. Is he speaking about it in terms of "they were not brought here from the Real World by Lanfear" or was he saying, "Exotics are a new species that came about on this Mirror World" or was he saying something else?


Again, in bold is the point I find most interesting. It seems to imply a fundamental difference between the worlds viewed en route to Toman Head and the world previously visited by Portal Stone. My best explanation continues my train analogy: in the process of moving the group to Toman Head, Rand inadvertently moved the ‘train’ off the tracks (or it was pushed off by Ishamael), and the group moved through a series of worlds without fully entering them, similar to Egwene viewing another person’s dream without fully entering it. Or perhaps while they were ‘off the tracks’ they were pulled into a virtual reality created by Ishamael.


I like the idea of Virtual Reality created by Ishamael, something I pose as an explanation for some of the Dreams Rand has in TEoTW that are not quite like other Dreams, instead more akin to the Testing Ter'angreal virtual reality. However, I tend to believe that the Portal Stones could have had many functions other than just purely "travel" oriented. Similar to the Ter'angreal Rings in Rhuidean, seeing variations of the future of one's life, possible variations, they seem to do much of what we saw with Rand, his life in variation after variation. The Rings seem a more focused tool, but I see no reason to believe that the Portal Stones might have been created to enable this type of use but done with purpose, not by accident as we see with Rand. I get the feeling like today's current use is rather rudimentary than what the Portal Stones are actually capable of performing.


Some final thoughts…
Still an issue with the grolm native to a mirror of Randland

One can die of thirst drinking in T’A’R, but can live on what they find in a sufficiently substantial mirror world

As matter is trapped energy, Moghedien likely needed to ‘make’ Birgitte’s physical body with the energy of the OP, but conceivably could have used T’A’R’s ‘projection’ as a blueprint.

I think it remains unclear how long someone from Randland could have survived in that specific Mirror World on food only found in that world. But I agree in principle that more substantial Mirror Worlds are likely capable of sustaining non-reflected life for indefinite periods of time.

Kimon
07-18-2011, 12:02 AM
You use "same TAR" as though you are qualifying TAR somehow, which is fine to do, but maybe explain the qualification.

Nothing has disputed Verin's explanation that all Worlds are surrounded by/touched by three constants, TAR being one of them. And she includes Mirror Worlds in these worlds she describes. Your disagreement is noted, yet unsupported.




Somehow I'm guessing that what is bothering Felix about T'A'R is slightly different than what was bothering me, but there does surprisingly seem to be some overlap. Perhaps, however, the main problem is the terminology. Calling something a "mirror world" implies that it exists as a reflection of reality. T'A'R unfortunately seems thus to fit that definition. So is it a mirror world, or is it not? Calling it the so-called Third Constant would seem to imply that it is not, or at least, that it is in some way different from the other mirrors. Yet the other mirrors, those that can be visited via the portal stones, are also reflections of the real world, only more distorted reflections than that found in T'A'R. The other question is constancy. If one visited T'A'R from within a mirror world, does it not stand to reason that this T'A'R would be dissimilar to that version that reflects the real world? T'A'R may be unpopulated, but for the dreamwalkers and occasional untrained dreaming interlopers, but it does possess the cities and topography of the real world that it reflects. Yet if a mirror world lacked cities, or possessed different cities, would the reflection not be altered to reflect the mirror? How then is this version of T'A'R in any way the same as that which reflects the real world? How is it a constant? How is it not merely another mirror world?

The Unreasoner
07-18-2011, 04:30 AM
Heh. No, more just wanting to get other people brainstorming ways in which it would be possible assuming a set of facts, instead of debating the definition of those supposed facts (not that the debate of the facts isn't obviously enjoyable too.) :)

And you did it, which is great because you came up with a thought I hadn't considered, which is the part of your post I want to address first.
Ha. Happy to oblige. I have always felt that arguing the opposing position is a great way to better understand the issue as a whole. I still favor my “exotics as extinct animals of ranland still found in primitive mirror worlds” theory, but I do think that some of the other theories have merit, particularly the one where the means to access Tormland is either lost in the true world or was only discovered in a mirror world.
Somehow I'm guessing that what is bothering Felix about T'A'R is slightly different than what was bothering me, but there does surprisingly seem to be some overlap. Perhaps, however, the main problem is the terminology. Calling something a "mirror world" implies that it exists as a reflection of reality. T'A'R unfortunately seems thus to fit that definition. So is it a mirror world, or is it not? Calling it the so-called Third Constant would seem to imply that it is not, or at least, that it is in some way different from the other mirrors. Yet the other mirrors, those that can be visited via the portal stones, are also reflections of the real world, only more distorted reflections than that found in T'A'R. The other question is constancy. If one visited T'A'R from within a mirror world, does it not stand to reason that this T'A'R would be dissimilar to that version that reflects the real world? T'A'R may be unpopulated, but for the dreamwalkers and occasional untrained dreaming interlopers, but it does possess the cities and topography of the real world that it reflects. Yet if a mirror world lacked cities, or possessed different cities, would the reflection not be altered to reflect the mirror? How then is this version of T'A'R in any way the same as that which reflects the real world? How is it a constant? How is it not merely another mirror world?
I would think that this issue highlights the true nature and malleability of T’A’R. If T’A’R does reflect ALL worlds (as I believe it does), these cities unique to mirror worlds should be accessible, as should be finnland and the world of the Ogier (and the hypothetical Tormland).

But Tel’aran’rhiod is The Grand Reflection of the Collective Consciousness. As Loial notes, every world has a certain degree of ‘awareness’, and it is that awareness that I feel is reflected. Although, each awareness is unique, and so is each Dreamwalker’s experience of T’A’R. If a persistent mirror world had a unique city, Dreamwalkers from that mirror world would likely have no difficulty visiting it, as their consciousness would have developed as part of their world’s consciousness, and would incorporate elements of the world’s consciousness.

It is when things are different than a consciousness expects that difficulties arise. For instance, it is stated often that it is difficult to ‘jump’ directly into a room that has been changed. I would think walking, even ‘speed walking’, would not have any issues: being in a place imparts knowledge of it, which includes knowledge of immediate surroundings. This is how a person can visit a previously unknown place, the knowledge is gained from a culmination of infinitesimally small ‘jumps’ which grant the necessary awareness. But this is a key point, the chain from known starting point to previously unknown ending point is an unbroken one (much like Travelling). So it would be relatively easy to mentally conceive a place which is, in a sense, “the place where the distance between Tar Valon and Caemlyn is nonexistent” or “the place where a point in Tar Valon and a point in Caemlyn are one and the same”. This is actually the way I think both Travelling and T’A’R ‘jumping’ operate.

More difficult would be to ‘jump’ to a place when one has no real sense of its location. So while it should be possible to jump to a city unique to a mirror world, the demand for an unbroken chain of awareness is still there. If it is possible to open a real world gateway from the true world to a mirror world, a channeler who understands the mechanics of the weave might be able to do a ‘jump’, but I would think it would normally require methods within the awareness, such as using Portal Stones within T’A’R. A person who could make the jump in T’A’R would need an enormous understanding of both the true world and the target mirror world, which normally wouldn’t be the case (the average Dreamwalker would have no awareness of the existence of the city, much less how to go about getting there). Rarer still would be the existence of a Dreamwalker who can mentally reconcile the laws of a parallel world with those of his own, simultaneously believing both sets are true. This is why I believe the stedding are considered inaccessible, and why the Tower of Ghenjei would be very difficult to enter/navigate. The physical laws are so radically different that a randland Dreamwalker would likely be incapable of conceiving them.

Some other thoughts on the issue (I can’t sleep, mind won’t shut up):
1: Do Verin’s ‘perpendicular’ worlds equal Jordan’s ‘parallel’ worlds?

I like the idea, it renders Verin’s explanation more thorough and accurate, and the mathematician in me notes how any two perpendicular worlds would have one true intersection, like the ToG and the Book of Translation. It could even explain (to some extent) the nature of the Aelfinn’s powers, their world’s orientation would make past and future equally readable, and if Crispin is right with the mechanics of prophecy, the cross section of all possible worlds could be examined more easily than by attempting to observe worlds in the same general orientation.

2: Whats the deal with the Ajah colors around the Portal Stones in the mirror world visited by Rand?

The Ajahs didn’t exist until the Third Age. Perhaps the stones are a relic of the past Fourth Age? Or do the colors represent something else? My best guess is that in this mirror world history unfolded the same as it did in the true world, up until the point where Hawkwing was defeated by the Trollocs. In this world, Hawkwing was on relatively good terms with the Aes Sedai of the Tower (so they aided in the war effort), and the Aes Sedai of Seanchan had succeeded in exterminating the Shadowspawn on their continent, with the exotics. I think during the wars that ensued in randland, a party was sent to Seanchan, perhaps to find aid, or more likely to find refuge. The Aes Sedai there knew how to operate the Portal Stones, and the Randland Aes Sedai obtained the knowledge in some way, and returned to Randland by Portal Stone with grolm (either stolen or given), and used the grolm and Stones to eradicate the Trollocs. During the war they surrounded the Stones with the colored steps to mark it property of the White Tower. After the Trollocs were wiped out, I can only assume the grolm turned on the people of Randland, who were likely few in number and ill equipped to handle them. Perhaps there are survivors in Seanchan?

3: Can a soul only truly inhabit one world in a world group?

This question deals with the nature of the visions en route to Toman Head, and with the feasibility in obtaining military aid from the other worlds. Were the visions simulated by Ishamael? Were they of true mirror worlds, but handpicked by Ishamael to impart despair? Were they a truly random sample of possible worlds, indicating the apparent impossibility of the victory of the Light? What would happen if a “mirror Rand” came to the true world? Can a soul even simultaneously exist in two persistent worlds? Or are the worlds that reflect real people ‘insubstantial’ until a true world soul visits it? What happens to worlds where the Dark One wins? Do they no longer exist, are no longer accessible?

yks 6nnetu hing
07-19-2011, 04:20 AM
Ah... I leave the country for a few days and all sorts of interesting debates happen. yay!Yes, calling it a mirror is confusing. I think if more like memory foam. The world sits on a giant mattress made of memory foam, and the longer anything in that world stays in one place, the stronger the impression made.

Tam has a lot of definitive answers in his post, but doesn't back any of them up with quotes. I'm not 100% convinced on some of it, e.g. that Tel'aran'rhiod reflects the Mirror Worlds as well. I think the Mirror Worlds are not truly real, but exist as potentialities. I could be way off, though. The analogy is interesting. Perhaps to make it clearer would be to liken the Mirror world to a Reproduction - in art world, repro's are very common and happily allowed as long as it's made very clear that it's a copy. Meaning that a crucial detail is changed. So, take the Mona Lisa - we all know the original. I have seen repro's of the Mona Lisa with a futuristic skyline, with a goatee, with sunglasses, green... you name it. The original though, is still the one Leonardo painted, and it would be the Original that would be reflected in T'A'R, perhaps with a goatee flittering in and out?

Since T'A'R is both reflecting the real world and allowing the mind to fill in details (just think of all the dresses!), I wonder if the T'A'R visited by people is primarily reflecting the world as they know it? If they don't know a different World, then it's not reflected...


I can appreciate the Exotics as extinct animals of the First Age. However, taking such Exotics from this Mirror World that Rand visited (let's say), I just don't believe there is evidence that such unsubstantial reality can be taken by Portal Stone back into reality where it could survive. Also, we are told a Parallel World was where the Exotics were found, and that the manner of how they were acquired was lost. I guess you could link the Exotics are extinct animals of the First Age and Ancients knew how to make unsubstantial reality into reality and attempt to explain it that way...and If we had been told that the Exotics came from a Mirror World, then I'd agree this would be the best explanation, but we are told they came from a Parallel World.

Do this for me, run this scenario: a Portal Stone was used and the Exotics were taken from a Parallel World. Theorize how that would be possible with everything we know so far. I still don't think you can use the Portal stones to access parallel Worlds. I think it's Mirror's only. The reasoning for this is 2-fold: first, RJ said so and second, it seems too "easy" in a way. Parallel worlds are supposed to be extremely difficult to access. Yet any country pumpkin channeling into a Portal stone can make their way into a Mirror World and back.

I addressed this above with my Snapshot analogy. I believe you can visit other worlds and see how they progressed within that Mirror World. You brought up the support in your response. Ter'angreal doorways still exist in Mirror Worlds. Crossroads still exist like Ghenjei. The Book of Translation still exists. I would argue oblivion, or do nothing when trying to transport a Mirror World object into the Real World, before I'd argue Mirror World inhabitant moving within the Pattern staying within the Mirror would go into oblivion or do nothing. I think you're thinking primarily of the very unstable Mirror World Rand visited. According to "Selene" there are plenty Mirror worlds that are almost interchangeable with Randland. If the Grolm were taken from one of the more stable Mirror Worlds, I would not see an issue with that. I suppose the question that might solve the dilemma is: did the water in Rand and co's waterbags get transported with them from the Mirror World to the Real World? If yes then it's obviously possible to bring items from the Mirror World to Randland. And if it's possible to bring items, I don't see how it would be that big a leap to bringing living creatures.

More Questions

1. If I visit a Mirror World, can I use the Tower of Ghenjei to travel to the Mirror World of that Parallel World? Interesting question... That would depend on what the Tower of Ghenjei is. Is it a portal from Randland to just the *Finns or is it a portal from Randland and its Mirror Worlds to just the *Finns or is it a portal from Randland and its Mirror Worlds to the *Finns and other places. From teh comments on T'A'R it's made clear that it's possible to enter the Tower in T'A'R so it should be possible also in a Mirror World. much more difficult but possible. As to where you end up though... tricksy. Because if you're in a reflection of something, trying to go into a reflection of something else, you've first of all no idea how to get to that reflection if you don't (mentally) go through to the first Real World, then the Parallel Real world and from there to the Mirror world. Otherwise might as well be shooting moths in the dark.

2. Is it possible to use the One Power to open a gateway from a Mirror World back to the corresponding Real World? I think it should be, theoretically. The metaphysics of Travelling would have to be changed to take into account the different worlds - say instead of ripping the Fabric or folding the Fabric you would... I don't know... bounce the Fabric?

This is a fun game. Let me play.

Earth and Parallel Worlds are Real Worlds.
Mirror Worlds are Reflections of Reality
The Ways are Constructed Space within the Void.


that's not entirely true, the Ways are constructed (Grown, to be more exact), but they're not exactly in the Void. From the quotes below it sounds like the Aes Sedai either found or created a... dimension for lack of a better world, and in that dimension they were able to grow passageways from one location in the Real World to another location.
TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 43 - Decisions and Apparitions
"As I was saying," the Ogier went on, "the Aes Sedai, the male Sedai, left. But before they went, they gave a gift to the Ogier in thanks for our sanctuary. The Ways. Enter a Waygate, walk for a day, and you may depart through another Waygate a hundred miles from where you started. Or five hundred. Time and distance are strange in the Ways. Different paths, different bridges, lead to different places, and how long it takes to get there depends on which path you take. It was a marvelous gift, made more so by the times, for the Ways are not part of the world we see around us, nor perhaps of any world outside themselves. Not only did the Ogier so gifted not have to travel through the world, where even after the Breaking men fought like animals to live, in order to reach another stedding, but within the Ways there was no Breaking. The land between two stedding might split open into deep canyons or rise in mountain ranges, but in the Way between them there was no change.

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 16 - In the Mirror of Darkness
"She is a fascinating woman, isn't she? Some of the Elders don't know as much as she does about history-especially the Age of Legends-and about-oh, yes. She says you were right about the Ways, Rand. The Aes Sedai, some of them, studied worlds like this, and that study was the basis of how they grew the Ways. She says there are worlds where it is time rather than distance that changes. Spend a day in one of those, and you might come back to find a year has passed in the real world, or twenty. Or it could be the other way round. Those worlds - this one, all the others - are reflections of the real world, she says. This one seems pale to us because it is a weak reflection, a world that had little chance of ever being. Others are almost as likely as ours. Those are as solid as our world, and have people. The same people, she says, Rand. Imagine it! You could go to one of them and meet yourself. The Pattern has infinite variation, she says, and every variation that can be, will be."
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 36 - Among the Elders
"What we need," Hurin said diffidently, "is one of those Portal Stones." He looked to Alar, then Verin, and when neither told him to stop, he went on, sounding increasingly confident. "The Lady Selene said those old Aes Sedai had studied those worlds, and that was how they knew how to make the Ways. And that place we were . . . well, it only took us two days less to travel a hundred leagues. If we could use a Portal Stone to go to that world, or one like it, why, it'd take no more than a week or two to reach the Aryth Ocean, and we could come back right on Toman Head. Maybe it isn't so quick as the Ways, but it's a long sight quicker than riding off west. What do you say, Lord Ingtar? Lord Rand?"

FelixPax
07-19-2011, 05:05 PM
Somehow I'm guessing that what is bothering Felix about T'A'R is slightly different than what was bothering me, but there does surprisingly seem to be some overlap. Perhaps, however, the main problem is the terminology. Calling something a "mirror world" implies that it exists as a reflection of reality. T'A'R unfortunately seems thus to fit that definition. So is it a mirror world, or is it not?


Yes, Robert Jordan's terminology is problematic. Terminology and how to define what an object is, in WoT series, have been vexing and confusing for many, including myself over that last 20 years. Is Robert Jordan purposefully confusing & vague? ;)


Nothing has disputed Verin's explanation that all Worlds are surrounded by/touched by three constants, TAR being one of them. And she includes Mirror Worlds in these worlds she describes. Your disagreement is noted, yet unsupported.


Let's take what Verin's claims to be the "Third Constant". Verin sees Dreams as one constant object, which exists in addition to the Creator and the Dark One. Verin uses hedged or subtle language to claim that a 'World of Dreams' exists inside or else surrounds all types of Worlds.

There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 21 "A World of Dreams" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; Verin speaking



Question then arise what qualities distinguish one type of World from another?


What are the variables?


Time, Space or Distance, Dreams, Flesh, Memory


Variables of Time include: All Time, Timeless
Variables of Memory include: Never Fades/Total Recall, Faded/Degraded Recall, No Memory




Four basic type of Worlds are known to exist: Mirror, Parallel, Dark, Vacuole. What makes each of these four Worlds different from one another?


Each World's five variables of 'Time, Space or Distance, Dreams, Flesh, Memory' are arranged in the same consistent order. Thus, each type of World's arrange of variables, is consistently different from the other three Worlds.


An Example: The space where Dark One's exists, is similar to a Parallel World. A difference between the 'Dark World' aka Shayol Ghul and a 'Parallel World' is in the aspect of 'Time'; Shayol Ghul is 'Timeless', Aelfinn have 'All Time'.




Mirror World = 1. 'World of Dreams'. 2. 'World of Flesh'. 3. 'World of Flesh' and 'World are Dream' are separate 'Spaces'. 4. 'Time' disjointed; 'All Time' exists in 'World of Dreams' (Birgitte; Hopper) 5. 'Memory' fades for Humans in 'World of Flesh' (Birgitte); 'Memory' for Wolves is of 'All-Time', as Wolves are conscious of 'World of Flesh' and 'World of Dreams' at the same time; 'Memory' for Wild Animals is similar to Wolves.



Parallel World = 1. 'World of Dream' AND 'World of Flesh' are united as one and the same. Only one 'Space' exists in a Parallel World. 2. 'All Time' exists in 'Memory', no fading effect for memory.


Shayol Ghul aka Dark World = 1. 'Dreams' AND 'Flesh' outside of 'Time'. (At least the Chosen survived for 3,000 years relative to Westlands time. Questionable if Flesh is native to system, I'm skeptical.) 2. Dark One has Memory problems or holes, suggesting both Memory and All-Time were each destroyed.




Vacuole = 1. 'Time' becomes an object of manipulation. It exists Outside of the Pattern really, claims Moghedien. 2. 'Flesh' can exist. (Moghedien survived one, in the Flesh.) 3. Speculation--'Dreams' are the tool which controls the manipulation of 'Time'. 4. Memory exists, Memory can be manipulated.








What have readers been viewing and discussing for roughly 20 years about the Wheel of Time series?


Observations of a Mirror World becoming a Parallel World. A realm of Flesh is slowly merging with a realm of Dream. Changes.


The World of Earth existing as of Tower of Midnight book, is neither purely a Mirror World, nor a Parallel World. This World contains aspects of both, because changes are in process and incomplete.


A given Mirror World can be changed or be altered to become a pure 100% Parallel World.



What readers have repeatedly seen in the Wheel of Time, is a Mirror World called Earth in a process of changing to a Parallel World.

Evils Bubbles:

A Deck of Playing Cards attacking Matrim Cauthon in the Stone at Tear
Three Identical Reflections of Rand al’Thor attack himself in the Stone at Tear, in front of Berelain
An Axe attacking Perrin in his rooms at the Stone in Tear, in front of Faile
Village of Salidar, Altara has a Bubble of Evil attack, observed by Nynaeve & Elayne. Anaiya thought it was Sammael's doing. :rolleyes:



Ghosts of the dead returned to a 'World of Flesh': Andor, Tar Valon, Altara, Tear (CoT)
Individual transforming from Flesh to Charcoal (ToM book)
Sections of the Maude district in Tear transforming from Flesh to Ashes, Stone to Ashes, Wood to Ashes (ToM Book)
Hinderstap (TGS Book)
The Creature thoughts created a Black Storm over his head in the Blight (ToM book, Prologue)


What were once Nightmares restricted to a ‘Dream World’, have been instead occurring in a ‘World of Flesh’.



Even 'Space or Distance' is becoming blurred:


Sharan bugs popping in Romanda's tent, while at a Salidar Aes Sedai rebel army camp near Tar Valon (TGS book)
Blight popping up in northern Altara, as found by Perrin's group of Wise Ones, Asha'man, Aiel (ToM book)



Space or Distance is becoming more like a 'World of Dream', thought and imagination influences location.



How many Worlds exist or touch Earth's 'World of Flesh'?


Earth = 'World of Dreams'

Parallel World = Ogier Stedding; Aelfinn; Eelfinn
Mirror World (foreign) = the Ways; Mirror of Darkness (TGH book); plus many others
Dark World = Shayol Ghul





Deeper follow-up Questions:



What happens if a human child is born in a Stedding? Or in the realms of Aelfinn? Eelfinn?

Is that human infant's Dreams and Flesh united as one consciousness? Remember if that child was born in a Parallel Realm, it is exposed to a realm where 'Dream and Flesh' exist as one. Whereas, if that same child was born in a Mirror realm, it is exposed to a realm where 'Dream and Flesh' are separated for Humans.


“A stedding,” Elyas roared. “You never listen to stories? Of course, there hasn’t been an Ogier here in three thousand odd years, not since the Breaking of the World, but it’s the stedding makes the Ogier, not the Ogier make the stedding.”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 29 "Eyes Without Pity" -- Perrin point of view; with Elyas, Egwene al'Vere, Bela, and Wolves


Does Memory for Humans vary, depending on method and 'World' location of birth? If so, how and why? Mechanism differences are what?


By Method, I mean: ripped versus natural human birth versus balefired created birth (e.g. Olver) versus soul to body transfer birth (Aran'gar, Osan'gar)?
By Location, I mean: a given Parallel World (Stedding, Aelfinn, Eelfinn) versus Mirror World (the Ways etc) versus Dark World (Shayol Ghul) versus Vacuole World


Could the true Dragon have been born inside of an Ogier Stedding? An Ogier Stedding located on the island of Tar Valon? A Stedding on a slope of Dragonmount, in fact?

If a Stedding can make the Ogier, can it make a Dragon too? (tEotW, Ch.29)

Would a human child born at a Ogier Stedding, be protected from the Dark One's knowledge? Remember the shielding, Elyas mentions?

Who enjoys visiting Steddings among others? Yes, the Tuantha'an including Raen and Ila's band.


Did Tamra Ospenya and Gitara know in advance where the Dragon was going to be born? Hence, a reason to send all other Aes Sedai out from Tar Valon? Plus, another reason to send Accepted including Moiraine and Siuan outside of Tar Valon on a false trail (e.g. get father's name)? Yet Tamra Ospenya never sent news of a reward into the Ogier Stedding on the island of Tar Valon, why not?





----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Where did I find the terms of 'World of the Flesh', World of Flesh'?


Birgitte (ber-GEET-teh):

Warder to Elayne Trakand, believed to be possibly the first female Warder ever, a fact that causes a number of difficulties, few of them expected. Birgitte is in truth the legendary hero of that name, who was one of those bound to be called back by the Horn of Valere, but she was ripped out of Tel’aran’rhiod into the world of the flesh during a struggle with Moghedien and was only saved from death by being bonded by Elayne. Except for her beauty and skill with a bow, she is little like the stories of her. See also Forsaken; Horn of Valere; Warder.

A Crown of Swords, Glossary entry for "Birgitte"

The dream is not like the world of flesh, Young Bull. Here, the same hunt can have many endings.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 54 "Into the Stone" -- Perrin point of view; Hopper speaking, in a World of Dream/Wolf Dream/T'A'R


The other woman grimaced, embarrassed and regretful. “I cannot, Nynaeve. I cannot touch the world of flesh unless the Horn calls me again. Or else the Wheel weaves me out. If it did this moment, you would find only an infant mewling at her mother’s breast. As for Falme, the Horn had called us; we were not there as you were, in the flesh. That is why the Power could not touch us. Here, all is part of the dream, and the One Power could destroy me as easily as you. More easily. I told you; I am an archer, a sometime soldier, no more.” Her complex golden braid swung as she shook her head. “I do not know why I am explaining. I should not even be talking to you.”

“Why not? You’ve spoken to me before. And Egwene thought she saw you. That was you, wasn’t it?” Nynaeve frowned. “How do you know my name? Do you just know things?”

“I know what I see and hear. I have watched you, and listened, whenever I could find you. You and the other two women, and the young man with his wolves. According to the precepts, we may speak to none who know they are in Tel’aran’rhiod. And yet, evil walks the dream as well as the world of flesh; you who fight it attract me. Even knowing I can do almost nothing, I find myself wanting to help you. But I cannot. It violates the precepts, precepts which have held me for so many turns of the Wheel that in my oldest, faintest memories I know I had already lived a hundred times, or a thousand. Speaking to you violates precepts as strong as law.”


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 54 "Into the Stone" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view; with Birgitte in a World of Dreams



Leaning on her bow, Birgitte frowned thoughtfully. “Facing Moghedien is difficult, and not only because she is Forsaken. She hides and takes no risks. She attacks only where she sees weakness, and moves only in shadows. If she fears defeat, she will run; she is not one to fight to the last, even when doing so has the chance of victory. A chance is not enough for Moghedien. But do not take her lightly. She is a serpent coiled in high grass, waiting her own moment to strike, with less compassion than the snake. Especially here do not take her lightly. Lanfear always claimed Tel’aran’rhiod for her own, but Moghedien could do things here far beyond Lanfear, though she has not Lanfear’s strength in the world of flesh. I think she would not take the risk of confronting Lanfear.”


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 52 "Need" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view; with Birgitte in World of Dreams

Tangent: Birgitte's and others comparing and contrasting references of Serpent(s), Snake(s), and Viper(s) is one of the major themes of the Wheel of Time.

Moghedien is seen by Birgitte as a Serpent; yet how can one tell if a snake, serpent or viper seeks to kill a person with advance notice? Is it possible to kiss a viper, and live to tell the tale? Or who can tell who is what, in a pit of snakes, serpents, vipers? Robert Jordan really did seem to enjoy employing 'Viper Pit', 'Snakes in Pit' references across the series....

Who is the Snake, which Birgitte believes possesses compassion? Fortuona?



Where did I find a reference to Vacuole and Time?


“Did you enjoy your time in the vacuole?”

Moghedien felt icy fingers dig into her scalp. She was no researcher or maker, but she knew that word. She did not even think to ask how a young man of this time did, too. Sometimes there were bubbles in the Pattern, though someone like Mesaana would say that was too simple an explanation. Vacuoles could be entered, if you knew how, and manipulated much like the rest of the world—researchers had often done great experiments in vacuoles, so she vaguely remembered hearing—but they were outside the Pattern really, and sometimes they closed up, or perhaps broke off and drifted away. Even Mesaana could not say what happened—except that anything in them at the time was gone forever.

“How long?” She was surprised her voice was so steady. She rounded on the young man, who sat there showing her white teeth. “I said, how long? Or don’t you know?”

“I saw you arrive . . . ” He paused, lifting a silver goblet from the table beside his chair, eyes smiling at her over the rim as he drank. “ . . . the night before last.”

She could not hide a relieved gasp. The only reason anyone would want to enter a vacuole was that time flowed differently there, sometimes slower, sometimes faster. Sometimes much faster. She would not have been entirely surprised to learn that the Great Lord had really imprisoned her for a hundred years, or a thousand, to emerge into a world already his, to make her way feeding among carrion while the other Chosen stood at the pinnacle. She was still one of the Chosen, in her own mind, at least. Until the Great Lord himself said she was not. She had never heard of anyone being released once a mindtrap was set, but she would find a way. There was always a way for those who were cautious, while those fell who called caution cowardice. She herself had carried a few of that so-called brave sort to Shayol Ghul to be fitted with cour’souvra.


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 25 "Mindtrap" -- Moghedien point of view; her thoughts, in scene with Moridin/Ishamael


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Does the Wheel more weave two Patterns?


“Worlds that might be? I don’t understand, Loial.”

The Ogier shrugged massively, and uneasily. “Neither do I, Rand. Most of it sounded like this. ‘If a woman go left, or right, does Time’s flow divide? Does the Wheel then weave two Patterns? A thousand, for each of her turnings? As many as the stars? Is one real, the others merely shadows and reflections?’ You see, it was not very clear. Mainly questions, most of which seemed to contradict each other.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 13 “From Stone to Stone” – Rand al’Thor point of view; with Loial, Hurin

The Unreasoner
07-19-2011, 05:39 PM
Why do they connect to Mirror worlds?

We know they do, I just want to know why someone would want them to....

Thanks to Felix for pointing me in the right direction.

But:
the research junkies needed a fix (simple curiosity), and
The only reason anyone would want to enter a vacuole was that time flowed differently there, sometimes slower, sometimes faster. Sometimes much faster.
A Crown of Swords, Chapter 25 "Mindtrap"
I would guess motives are the same.

FelixPax
07-19-2011, 06:40 PM
Portal stones link to other places in Randland. That makes perfect sense. Useful for quick travel etc and along the lines of the Bus stations mentioned earlier.

Why do they connect to Mirror worlds?

We know they do, I just want to know why someone would want them to....

Portal Stone is simply a guide, akin to what the 'Twist Ring' is, a guide and aid for beginners.


Lots of good reasons exist, for a person to want to go to a different Place or Time or World. Portal Stone and Twist Dream Ring are each aids to achieve this.

Tamyrlin
07-19-2011, 06:55 PM
Ha. Happy to oblige. I have always felt that arguing the opposing position is a great way to better understand the issue as a whole. I still favor my “exotics as extinct animals of ranland still found in primitive mirror worlds” theory, but I do think that some of the other theories have merit, particularly the one where the means to access Tormland is either lost in the true world or was only discovered in a mirror world.


Your Exotics as Extinct Animals of Randland theory would explain Mirror World transition, which is why it is a good one. I'm just glad you catch the concept that these animals must (yes, there are one or two caveats) have a Real World base.

Your, Mirror World Develops Parallel World link is my preferred explanation, because it fits all of the information we have and doesn't require us to explain away anything.


Some other thoughts on the issue (I can’t sleep, mind won’t shut up):
1: Do Verin’s ‘perpendicular’ worlds equal Jordan’s ‘parallel’ worlds?

I like the idea, it renders Verin’s explanation more thorough and accurate, and the mathematician in me notes how any two perpendicular worlds would have one true intersection, like the ToG and the Book of Translation. It could even explain (to some extent) the nature of the Aelfinn’s powers, their world’s orientation would make past and future equally readable, and if Crispin is right with the mechanics of prophecy, the cross section of all possible worlds could be examined more easily than by attempting to observe worlds in the same general orientation.


I don't believe Perpendicular Worlds are Parallel Worlds, but it's a fun idea. It's tempting to associate Finns with such for the reasons you note, but that would essentially give every Perpendicular World Finn like abilities. Why don't such abilities exist for Real Worlds that cross Perpendicular Worlds? Meh. I think Perpendicular Worlds are like those described by Egwene that are so opposite to reality as to be imcomprehensible. The Finn World is not incomprehensible to reality, just different.

I think this comes down to layers. One layer holds Reality. One layer holds permanent reflections of that Reality. And One Layer surrounds them all with non-permanent reflections of all all contained within the Pattern and then one Layer exists outside of it which is the Void.

Layer of Reality.
Layer of Permanent Reflection of Reality.
Layer of Non-Permanent Reflection of Reality.
Void.


2: Whats the deal with the Ajah colors around the Portal Stones in the mirror world visited by Rand?


Some thoughts. This one has always been an interesting addition by Jordan. It's possible that it was a late addition (the colors to the Stones), but it's also possible that the colors inspired the eventual colors used by the Ajah. Also, it's possible that the colors used to be symbolic of something associated with the use of the Portal Stones. It might be interesting to see if they'll answer the question, maybe something specific instead of just "what are the colors?"

Tamyrlin
07-19-2011, 07:34 PM
I still don't think you can use the Portal stones to access parallel Worlds. I think it's Mirror's only. The reasoning for this is 2-fold: first, RJ said so and second, it seems too "easy" in a way. Parallel worlds are supposed to be extremely difficult to access. Yet any country pumpkin channeling into a Portal stone can make their way into a Mirror World and back.


It doesn't seem to me like Parallel Worlds are supposed to be difficult to access. I mean, there is one permanent tower to Finn land and there used to be a few Ter'angreal that made getting a Parallel World quite easy. And obviously the Ogier were able to come here, so I think that assumption is unfounded, but I do agree that Jordan said that Portal Stones connect to Mirror Worlds. However, that does not preclude the theory posed by Unreasoner that within a Mirror World, one was created to connect to a Parallel World, because obviously they can connect to Real Worlds. Jordan was saying that Portal Stones connect from a Real World to a Mirror World, not a Real World to a Real World, in essence.

I guess it comes down to whether or not one believes that all Real Worlds (such as the Ogier World) have Mirror Worlds. If so, theoretically a Line could exist that could be accessed. I believe all Real Worlds have Permanent and Non Permanent Reflections and that such connections provide the theoretical basis for travel, whether or not the express purpose of the creation of such a tool for travel was to enable such.


I think you're thinking primarily of the very unstable Mirror World Rand visited. According to "Selene" there are plenty Mirror worlds that are almost interchangeable with Randland. If the Grolm were taken from one of the more stable Mirror Worlds, I would not see an issue with that. I suppose the question that might solve the dilemma is: did the water in Rand and co's waterbags get transported with them from the Mirror World to the Real World? If yes then it's obviously possible to bring items from the Mirror World to Randland. And if it's possible to bring items, I don't see how it would be that big a leap to bringing living creatures.


This doesn't address bringing, for example, yourself back from a Mirror World where you exist as a Mirror variation. As I mentioned in a previous post, if such travel was possible, it would have happened multiple times over by now, as the symbol for the Real World (Randland) is static on the Portal Stone that Rand visits in the Mirror World. In a substantial Mirror World where Rand exists along with Lanfear and Ishamael, why wouldn't such entities in Mirroring decisions have not ended up in the Real World time and again? I believe it is because they cannot exist outside their Reflection (without some extra ordinary help such as the Pattern breaking down.)


Interesting question... That would depend on what the Tower of Ghenjei is. Is it a portal from Randland to just the *Finns or is it a portal from Randland and its Mirror Worlds to just the *Finns or is it a portal from Randland and its Mirror Worlds to the *Finns and other places. From teh comments on T'A'R it's made clear that it's possible to enter the Tower in T'A'R so it should be possible also in a Mirror World. much more difficult but possible. As to where you end up though... tricksy. Because if you're in a reflection of something, trying to go into a reflection of something else, you've first of all no idea how to get to that reflection if you don't (mentally) go through to the first Real World, then the Parallel Real world and from there to the Mirror world. Otherwise might as well be shooting moths in the dark.


To me it's less about what the Tower of Ghenjei is, because the Mirror World is it's Reflection. Taking my snapshot analogy, the Pattern is Mirror'd not just one single world. There are stars, suns, etc in a Mirror World as an indicator that such is the case and so in the case of the Tower of Ghenjei, it would work the same way as it does in the Real World, but would transfer inhabitants to the Mirror versions within the Snapshot of the Finn Parallel Worlds.

But I agree on travel between TAR instantiations of Real Worlds and Mirror Worlds...it would be odd, but certainly possible. It's definitely worth a question.


That's not entirely true, the Ways are constructed (Grown, to be more exact), but they're not exactly in the Void. From the quotes below it sounds like the Aes Sedai either found or created a... dimension for lack of a better world, and in that dimension they were able to grow passageways from one location in the Real World to another location.

Consider Skimming and the Ways. Skimming is a means of Travel that is not as fast as Travelling, but cuts time between two points by stepping outside the Pattern. The Skimming Space is described as being a limitless Void. You open a doorway (waygate), into a Void, and step onto a Platform (Bridge) and then the Platform moves (along Ramps) until a doorway opens (waygate) to your destination. The differences lie in the Ways being a Constructed Space within the Void, in my opinion, but otherwise they act in much the same way and exist in a space that feels much the same. At least, that's my theory. :)

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
For the Aes Sedai, and sometimes those who served them, mechanical transport was unnecessary. Many people who could channel effectively could also Travel, a process which used the One Power to open a doorway that allowed stepping from one location to another at any distance without crossing the intervening space. Anyone could pass through the opening if it was made large enough, but only an Aes Sedai could actually create and hold the doorway. It was a very convenient way to move between locations, but impractical for use by the general public. Skimming, a process similar to Traveling, was occasionally used by those less adept. This method involved the use of platforms or steps in the void outside the pattern to carry the traveler from one point to another.

The Unreasoner
07-21-2011, 01:23 AM
More questions...
Was the Mirror world where the grolm were found studied to make the Ways? The world has several markers indicating that it branched off from the true world after the breaking, not during or before, and even some that indicate an even later date for branching off.

How persistent is this world? We don't really have any data on how the world was accessed. If it was by Lanfear's action or design, it may not have a static symbol. If it was reached by Rand inadvertently, the same rule applies. Could it have a static symbol? Are the Portal Stones dynamic? Do the symbols change, or represent different worlds, depending on the most stable and persistent worlds accessible from a given stone? (over the course of an Age, not over whatever period Verin is familiar with)

If my previous hypothesis was correct in the method of bringing the exotics to Randland (true Gate to Tormland located in mirror), maybe the visited mirror was used to speed up the march between the Gate to Tormland and the destination. Or the mirror held the Gate. Either way, some grolm could have been lost on the way.

How exactly are the grolm 'native' to the mirror? Does the mirror have a static symbol? If not, to what degree can the Stones be manipulated?

Juan
07-21-2011, 01:38 AM
Maybe it's just me, but I would think that where the DOs influence over the world if he escapes his prison can determine the fate if nite just randland, but of all the other [mirror] worlds... I would have thought it logical for these worlds to play a larger role in the storyline. Doesn't seem like they'll be any getting any action in the last book. If the other worlds exist and are a part of reality then why is the focus only on this one world instead of all those worlds? Just doesn't make sense to me.

FelixPax
07-21-2011, 03:09 AM
Some thoughts. This one has always been an interesting addition by Jordan. It's possible that it was a late addition (the colors to the Stones), but it's also possible that the colors inspired the eventual colors used by the Ajah. Also, it's possible that the colors used to be symbolic of something associated with the use of the Portal Stones. It might be interesting to see if they'll answer the question, maybe something specific instead of just "what are the colors?"


How about contrasting the three Colors needed to enter a 'World of Dreams' via the Twist Ring ter'angreal, versus the seven Colors originally covering on a Portal Stone?

Do more colors enable one to move, both Flesh and Dream to another World? A Mirror World?



Verin's Twist Ring = red, blue and brown
Portal Stone = Blue, Green, Grey, Brown, White, Yellow, Red



If one add mores twists, rings, or groves to a guide--say Ter'angreal--does that enable movement to a 'Parallel World'?


I'm thinking of Aelfinn, Eelfinn ter'angreal given descriptions in particular.


Elayne's research and her comments suggestion the Color numbers(1,2,3), Color type/shade (Blue, Brown, Red), Color Patterns or Order each are an important variable. Likewise Elayne's research suggest that Form matters as greatly as the associated Color variables.


Elayne's Twist Ring copies included:



Blue and Red ring ==> successful yet to others appears slightly misty or almost transparent
Blue and Brown ring, 'striped and flecked' ==> successful yet to others appears slightly misty or almost transparent
Solid Blue ring ==> a failure, "gave you horrific nightmares"
Unknown design or color copy of a Twisted Ring, possessed by Leane, as of Lord of Chaos book Chapter 7 ==> a success yet Leane was misty or almost transparent.

The Unreasoner
07-21-2011, 07:23 AM
Some thoughts. This one has always been an interesting addition by Jordan. It's possible that it was a late addition (the colors to the Stones), but it's also possible that the colors inspired the eventual colors used by the Ajah. Also, it's possible that the colors used to be symbolic of something associated with the use of the Portal Stones. It might be interesting to see if they'll answer the question, maybe something specific instead of just "what are the colors?"

One of the most fascinating things about the Wheel of Time is that, in a modular/recursive world, cause and effect are interchangeable.

Tamyrlin
07-21-2011, 01:08 PM
More questions...
Was the Mirror world where the grolm were found was studied to make the Ways? The world has several markers indicating that it branched off from the true world after the breaking, not during or before, and even some that indicate an even later date for branching off.


I doubt it was a particular Mirror World. I would surmise it to be more of an inspiration.

As to the Ways, I think this is more proof it exists as a Construct within the Void.

"They exist outside the normal confines of time and space through the One Power. Many Ogier believe they are actually a world unto themselves, connected only by the Pattern. In any case, normal physical rules do not apply to the network of the Ways. Ramps, islands, and bridges seem to hang free within a vast emptiness, sometimes one over another, with no apparent means of support. Directions such as north or south, up or down, have no real meaning within the Ways, and paths often spiral above or below for no obvious reason. A day’s walk may bring a traveler to a destination more than a hundred or even five hundred miles distant from his starting point, depending on the path taken. Guidings – tall slabs of stone inlaid with Ogier script in metal – stand at every juncture of multiple Ways. Signpost columns of stone, also in Ogier script, mark the entrance of each bridge and ramp.

Seems pretty damn clear that the Void/Skimming Space is where they chose to build the Ways and that they used knowledge from the study of Portal Stones and the math involved to develop the Lines to be followed to leave and re-enter the Pattern.


How persistent is this world? We don't really have any data on how the world was accessed. If it was by Lanfear's action or design, it may not have a static symbol. If it was reached by Rand inadvertently, the same rule applies. Could it have a static symbol? Are the Portal Stones dynamic? Do the symbols change, or represent different worlds, depending on the most stable and persistent worlds accessible from a given stone? (over the course of an Age, not over whatever period Verin is familiar with)


It's clear that Lanfear and/or Ishamael activated the Portal Stone from the text of the books. I'm too lazy at the moment to find the quote, but I recall someone seeing Ishamael and/or Lanfear by Rand at that location, maybe it was Perrin in the Dream, can't remember. But yes, that would make it possible that it was not a world tied to one of those symbols, because the text seems to indicate that those symbols on the Stone are not the only Mirror Worlds that exist nor are they the only ones accessible through the Stones, but verification couldn't hurt.

We should take note of these questions on a separate thread, or combine them into one reply on this thread.

Tamyrlin
07-21-2011, 01:10 PM
How about contrasting the three Colors needed to enter a 'World of Dreams' via the Twist Ring ter'angreal, versus the seven Colors originally covering on a Portal Stone?

Do more colors enable one to move, both Flesh and Dream to another World? A Mirror World?



Verin's Twist Ring = red, blue and brown
Portal Stone = Blue, Green, Grey, Brown, White, Yellow, Red



If one add mores twists, rings, or groves to a guide--say Ter'angreal--does that enable movement to a 'Parallel World'?


I'm thinking of Aelfinn, Eelfinn ter'angreal given descriptions in particular.


Elayne's research and her comments suggestion the Color numbers(1,2,3), Color type/shade (Blue, Brown, Red), Color Patterns or Order each are an important variable. Likewise Elayne's research suggest that Form matters as greatly as the associated Color variables.


Elayne's Twist Ring copies included:



Blue and Red ring ==> successful yet to others appears slightly misty or almost transparent
Blue and Brown ring, 'striped and flecked' ==> successful yet to others appears slightly misty or almost transparent
Solid Blue ring ==> a failure, "gave you horrific nightmares"
Unknown design or color copy of a Twisted Ring, possessed by Leane, as of Lord of Chaos book Chapter 7 ==> a success yet Leane was misty or almost transparent.


Yeah - I think there is something there that hasn't really been discussed nor questioned about colors/numbers/ter'angreal. Makes you wonder if the Redstone doorways and the materials/colors were important for constructing such a Ter'angreal. Would be interesting to track all of the references down as to type/variation/mechanism.

Consider the types of questions that they might answer about Ter'angreal construction as it pertains to shape, color, materal, etc. and reply with them.

GonzoTheGreat
07-21-2011, 01:19 PM
Yeah - I think there is something there that hasn't really been discussed nor questioned about colors/numbers/ter'angreal.Nitpick: it has been questioned and discussed. On Theoryland, a board dedicated to discussing this series. The result of the discussion was, as far as I can remember: "no clue, insufficient data".

FelixPax
07-21-2011, 01:37 PM
Seems pretty damn clear that the Void/Skimming Space is where they chose to build the Ways and that they used knowledge from the study of Portal Stones and the math involved to develop the Lines to be followed to leave and re-enter the Pattern.

'The Ways' were modeled on 'Mirror Worlds', so claimed Mierin/Selene/Lanfear to Loial in TGH book.


Is Tamyrlin claiming that being in 'the Void' is the same as being in a 'Mirror World of Flesh'?


If so, I'm highly skeptical of Tamyrlin's claim. 'The Void' is more akin to a 'World of Dreams', not a Mirror World of Flesh.


Imagination and Belief can alter and change reality, whether a person's in 'The Void' or 'World of Dreams'.

Tamyrlin
07-21-2011, 01:47 PM
Nitpick: it has been questioned and discussed. On Theoryland, a board dedicated to discussing this series. The result of the discussion was, as far as I can remember: "no clue, insufficient data".

I was more speaking of a detailed list of the colors and the ter'angreal, more so than it hadn't ever been mentioned...but if you have the link to previous discussions on this exact topic, share! (I hate the search feature on both of our boards...stupid forum search)

Tamyrlin
07-21-2011, 01:57 PM
I threw up some questions.

http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/07/sdcc-ask-the-author-brandon-sanderson.html

We'll see. :)

The Unreasoner
07-21-2011, 04:37 PM
Hahaha. I think the relative lengths of the comments alone will give away our friend Dusty's affiliation. The subject matter may be enough for Brandon to narrow it down to you.

Are you arguing that the "mirror world" where Rand met Selene isn't a mirror at all, but just more 'constructed space'? I seem to remember the Ways being able to sustain life (fruit trees, not sure if those fruit trees provided real sustenance or were just evanescently tasty).

If that is the case, the colors have a simple cause for their existence: Lanfear wants him to distrust the Tower, having him associate Aes Sedai with such an unpleasant episode couldn't hurt.

Tamyrlin
07-21-2011, 05:06 PM
Hahaha. I think the relative lengths of the comments alone will give away our friend Dusty's affiliation. The subject matter may be enough for Brandon to narrow it down to you.


That the type of quest...and the name "Dusty" will cement it for him, but it's fun to play anyway. :)


Are you arguing that the "mirror world" where Rand met Selene isn't a mirror at all, but just more 'constructed space'? I seem to remember the Ways being able to sustain life (fruit trees, not sure if those fruit trees provided real sustenance or were just evanescently tasty).


No - I think I was pointing out that it wasn't a particular Mirror World that inspired the construction of the Ways, but the research of how certain Lines of Travel enable one to skip ahead in time as related to the Real World and that these Lines touch all layers of Reality and even exist outside the Pattern in the Void. And that this is how Skimming, in essence, works in the Void. As an aside I was pointing out that the Ways certainly seem to share a bunch of similarities with the Void/Skimming Space, but that their Constructed Space is the difference, as in, they are contained within, that I guess could, from a "Matter" perspective be tied to research into the type of Matter that makes up Mirror Worlds in order for such Matter to be grown into new pathways, bridges, ramps, branches, etc. Although, honestly, hadn't considered that last part until just now, but I like it and I'm running with it, a thought in part due to your question about what I was(n't) thinking. Hah.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-22-2011, 03:12 AM
No - I think I was pointing out that it wasn't a particular Mirror World that inspired the construction of the Ways, but the research of how certain Lines of Travel enable one to skip ahead in time as related to the Real World and that these Lines touch all layers of Reality and even exist outside the Pattern in the Void. And that this is how Skimming, in essence, works in the Void. As an aside I was pointing out that the Ways certainly seem to share a bunch of similarities with the Void/Skimming Space, but that their Constructed Space is the difference, as in, they are contained within, that I guess could, from a "Matter" perspective be tied to research into the type of Matter that makes up Mirror Worlds in order for such Matter to be grown into new pathways, bridges, ramps, branches, etc. Although, honestly, hadn't considered that last part until just now, but I like it and I'm running with it, a thought in part due to your question about what I was(n't) thinking. Hah.

hmm, I believe that he most significant difference between Skimming and the Ways is that Skimming cannot be done by a non-channeler (not even with a ter'anglear. That we know of) but Ways can be grown by a non-channeler. Non-channelers can use both, but for Skimming they need to have a channeler present, for the Ways not at all. That would imply that the mechanisms as well as spaces for each are separate. Of course, the structure of the Ways is in nature permanent while Skimming is temporary, whatever is created while skimming dissolves as soon as channeling at the matter stops.

So. Is it the dimension in which the Ways exist that allows permanent and growing structures or is it the way (hah. I made a pun!) the structures are made that keeps them permanent? They are grown with a ter'anglear, so could be either. or both.

yks 6nnetu hing
07-25-2011, 03:00 AM
I've reached TSR in my re-read and just came across this quote:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 6 - Doorways
They were strange things, ter'angreal, fragments of the Age of Legends like angreal and sa'angreal, if more numerous. ter'angreal used the One Power instead of magnifying it. Each had apparently been made to do one thing and one thing alone, but though some were used now, no one was sure if those uses were anything like what they had been made for. The Oath Rod, on which a woman took the Three Oaths on being raised Aes Sedai, was a ter'angreal that made those oaths a part of her flesh and bone. The last test a novice took on being raised to Accepted was inside another ter'angreal that ferreted out her most heartfelt fears and made them seem real-or perhaps took her to a place where they were real. Odd things could happen with ter'angreal. Aes Sedai had been burned out or killed, or had simply vanished, in studying them. And in using them.

Not sure if it adds much to the actual discussion we're having now but it is an interesting tidbit. Obviously the test to full AS is generated by the minds of the testers, but for the Accepted's test it's often repeated that the way back comes but once and there are people who've stayed lost. I find it interesting that if that's what it does, the ter'angreal is not linked to any one particular Mirror World but the one representing the user's biggest fears. Past, present and future.

The Unreasoner
07-25-2011, 12:40 PM
An interesting quote from the KoD book tour...
Q: Can the Tower of Ghenjei be reached through any of the Portal Stones?
RJ: No.

An unusual question, and a more unusual answer.

In what sense did the asker mean "reached through"? If I were to start my journey in Cairhien, and I used a Portal Stone to get to the Portal Stone nearest to the Tower to shorten my journey, I would consider that 'reaching' the Tower, provided the Stone isn't unreasonably far from the Tower. Is RJ's answer intended to mean that there isn't a Stone at the base of the Tower? None for miles around?

If RJ considers traveling by mirror world also a function of the Stones, the answer may be indicate that the Tower cannot even be reached in a mirror. Perhaps the Tower isn't mirrored, or isn't functional in mirrors, or only one can function at a time.

In what sense did the asker mean "reached"? How did RJ hear it? Did RJ mean the base of the Tower, or inside? A Stone existing in a reasonable proximity would seem to indicate RJ meant 'inside' the Tower.

Is this answer a sort of reiteration that the Stones are for mirror worlds only? Or does it speak more to the nature of the Tower of Ghenjei, and its possible lack of mirrors?

nameless
07-25-2011, 12:50 PM
If the tower and the stones are both perpendicular to reality, which would make sense if they allow access to other realities, then there's a decent possibility they're parallel to each other and would not intersect, although that question left some ambiguity as to whether it was asking about a Portal Stone route to *finnland or about mirror-world reflections of the Tower of Ghenji.