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Cortar
07-21-2011, 02:19 AM
WARNING SPOILERS AHEAD!


So this is completely off the wall and almost definitely probably wrong but I feel like I still want to let others laugh at the silliness of it!
Also you can skip to the end if you don't want any build up and just my crazy theory.

Who ever said that Demandred is alive? Now hear me out. I have read these books many times for over a decade now but one thing always comes back to me concerning this mysterious character.

In the books where Taim and Demandred are first introduced I felt (and still feel tbh) that Robert Jordan meant for Demandred to be disguised as Taim. Authors usually don't go to the trouble of describing two characters as similarily as he did these two (from the way they acted down to their smiles he). BUT what I believe happened is either too many people figured it out or he grew to dislike the idea so he went outright and said that:

Demandred is not Taim.

Pay close attention to these words because Jordan loves to play with his fans.

So what is the evidence behind my crazy theory? Process of Elimination. We know that Demandred's "Rule is Secure." And these are the possible places that Demandred could be residing:

(1) Shara
(2) The Northerners
(3) The Black Tower
(4) Murandy (Really?)

Ok I think its safe to eliminate (1) Shara. Why? Because I want to. Honestly, I feel if in the last book, a Sharain army or something comes out of no where, I and many other WoT fans will be upset at the randomness and Deus ex machina of it all. Also, there really isn't enough time to introduce an entire new faction and from the Flash Forward they aren't mentioned.

(2) Has been eliminated for us by the Towers of Midnight and by the knowledge that if Demandred did gain influence of the Northerners, there really isn't much he can do with them. He can't make them let Trollocs through or make them not fight them, etc

(4) This one is just silly. All Forsaken want to be Nea' Bliss (sp?). What would Demandred ever contribute to the final battle by holing up in a random small country in the middle of nowhwere? Plus, this really isn't Demandred's style.

That leaves us with (3) The Black Town. Now, we all know that Taim is in charge of this and that Demandred is not Taim.

But look at the facts, this is probably the most powerful force in the world now due to their destructive nature and numbers. We know that Taim is a "darkfriend" or somehow related to the shadow since he has been forcefully turning people. How could Demandred pass this up?

This leads to another problem, how could Demandred control this place? Taim is very strong and cunning, any attempt by Demandred to physically control or rule by proxy would be resisted or subverted by Taim.

This lead me to believe that Demandred did try one of these (ruling by proxy through Taim or actually controlling him with a weave) but failed and thus my crazy theory is:

My Crazy Theory

Taim killed or incapitated Demandred and is impersonating him around the other Forsaken. It is possible he watched or tortured him somehow to get enough information to act like him.

This explains the similarity of their characters int he early books and why we can't find Demandred even now. This is supposed to be a final got you moment by Jordan as the whereabouts of Demandred is perhaps the greatest mystery left in the WoT series.

BUT CORTAR, this is highly unlikely! Well yes, but to be fair, these Forsaken are extremely cocky and thus, are brought down a peg many a time in the book by unlikely characters (I don't really need to give an example of this!).

The Unreasoner
07-21-2011, 02:26 AM
hahaha.
Love it. RJ was probably laughing his ass off when we were all asking if Taim was Demandred. Don't think anyone asked if Demandred was Taim.

I always wanted to think that Taim was a high functioning lunatic.

Not sure how BS's favoring Demandred above all save Moridin could be incorporated though.

And Demandred has a few POV's

FelixPax
07-21-2011, 03:55 AM
So what is the evidence behind my crazy theory? Process of Elimination. We know that Demandred's "Rule is Secure." And these are the possible places that Demandred could be residing:

(1) Shara
(2) The Northerners
(3) The Black Tower
(4) Murandy (Really?)


Welcome to Theoryland, nice to see someone make another stab at a Demandred theory.

Previously quite a HCFF's fell in love with a theory that Demandred was Murandy. Terez was a vocal one.


Ironically enough, as out of the box as this theory is, it's still misses on all counts.

Semirhage, Mesaana would have frayed & fried Taim, if Taim was trying to put one over them. Mirror of Mists isn't enough.


Next up, this theory omits any discussion at all of the Shadow Coast Mountains as a possibility. Two former nation-states exist within it's boundaries. Two Steddings exists there, with Waygates no less. Sammael claimed Demandred was using the Ways, which later Moridin all but directly confirmed (KoD).

When a place is quiet in WoT series, for a period, that's a good hint conflict is coming shortly. Amadicia's Southern Gate has been quiet for far too long.


In the end, your claiming Moridin did not know Taim kidnapped and become Demandred... and Moridin wouldn't notice any oddities at all? :rolleyes:

You have to be also be claiming Taim is a Chosen, because only a Chosen has the Mark to move around Myrddraal & Trollocs in the Blight.


It's a nice try for a theory, but I'm highly skeptical. Keep on trying.



Shadow Coast Mountains is the perfect place to have backstabbed Semirhage's Seanchan Empire. Seanchan & Semirhage were looking Northwards, not towards their extreme Southern weakness. A theme of Chosen backstabbing each other is common, to even the faction of Demandred, Mesaana, Semirhage.

Trollocs in Tylee's TGS book Prologue scene, were likely a band of Demandred's misguided Trollocs in route to the Mountains of Mist. Why? To avoid water crossings, for one reason. A second reason, is targeting of Two Rivers for invasion.


Demandred has been all over the place, he's not restricted to one single location. He's one of the Shadow's most important generals, after Moridin. He's placed fingerprints from Borderlands to Aridhol to Rhuidean to Tear to Cairhien to Haddon Mark to Shadow Coast Mountains to the Black Hills. Demandred has no time, to mess around at the Black Tower teaching & overseeing pupils.



This is supposed to be a final got you moment by Jordan as the whereabouts of Demandred is perhaps the greatest mystery left in the WoT series.

Greatest Mystery left?

I disagree, Demandred is a sideshow for clusters of other far bigger and more important Mysteries.
I'll leave that discussion for another thread.

The Unreasoner
07-21-2011, 05:28 AM
While I hate the idea that Demandred is restricted to Murandy, and I doubt Taim is posing as Demandred, I don't see much evidence that he is futzing around the Shadow Coast.

It's a fun theory though, however ridiculous

WinespringBrother
07-21-2011, 10:07 AM
Taim is not Demandred, Demandred is not Taim.

Else, Taim pretending to be Demandred would have recognized Flinn at the Cleansing of Saidin. (unless you are claiming that Taim killed Demandred at some point after that?)

Winter's Heart CH: 35 - With the Choedan Kal

Suddenly he saw people off to the right ahead of him through the trees, and sheltered behind a rough gray trunk. A bald-headed old man with a fringe of white hair was limping along between two women, one of them beautiful in a wild way, the other stunning. What were they doing in these woods? Who were they? Friends of al'Thor, or just people in the wrong place at the wrong time? He hesitated to kill them, whoever they were. Any use of the Power would warn al'Thor. He would have to wait until they passed. The old man's head was turning as if he were searching for something among the trees, but Demandred doubted a fellow that decrepit could see very far.
Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand straight toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would. That tottering old man was an Asha'man! And at least one of the women must be what passed for Aes Sedai in this time, and joined with the fellow in a ring.
He tried to launch his own attack and crush them, but the old man flung web after web at him without pause, and it was all he could do to fend them off. Those that struck trees enveloped them in flame or blew the trunks apart in splinters. He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded! Snarling, he began to retreat amid the crackle of burning trees and the thunder of explosions. Away from the key. Sooner or later the old man had to tire, and then he could take care of killing al'Thor. If one of the others did not get there first. He hoped fervently they did not.

ETA:
Date: 2003-01-07 | Location: Barnes and Noble
Type: Book Signing | Questioner: WinespringBrother
Q: Is Taim Demandred?
A: No, that is totally bogus.

Cortar
07-21-2011, 12:14 PM
Taim is not Demandred, Demandred is not Taim.

Else, Taim pretending to be Demandred would have recognized Flinn at the Cleansing of Saidin. (unless you are claiming that Taim killed Demandred at some point after that?)



ETA:
Date: 2003-01-07 | Location: Barnes and Noble
Type: Book Signing | Questioner: WinespringBrother
Q: Is Taim Demandred?
A: No, that is totally bogus.

Awww, well then I still think that Demandred is in charge of the Black Tower still, maybe he is there but has a weave that allows him to control Taim somehow?

Heinz
07-21-2011, 12:45 PM
I would also not be so quick to toss Murandy out based soley on the fact that Murandy was a nation with weak influence at the time the Forsaken were released. Strategically, it makes sense, as it is a low profile place that one could spend time gathering themselves without notice from the surrounding nations. No one cared that the king of Murandy wasn't responding to them, sicne they considered him king in name only over a fractious group of nobles.

I can think of two nations immediately off the top of my head, Germany and Scotland, that also had a habit of infighting. Scotland more toward Medieval Era, Germany all the way through the Rennaissance. Yet when they did finally act in some form of cohesion, they showed power. Scotland, in Medieval Era, when they had a strong king, gave England fits. Their downfall was not having a succession of strong kings, so the infighting after a good monarch weakened the state. Germany, of course, unified in Otto von Bismarck's time and became one of the strongest world powers.

So no, I don't see Murandy's status at the beginning of the series as being a sign that Demandred would not be interested. Quite the opposite, in fact. We've heard Demandred described as a good general, second only to LTT. This doesn't just mean he's excellent at tactics, but that he would have strengths in overall strategy. Overall strategy would demand that you take some time to consolidate, train, and prepare before you strike. Everything about the behavior of Murandy in the second half of the serious would seem to lean in this direction.

Then when you take into consideration the state of the Black Tower and Taim's power, whether gained through Moridin or himself, and I don't think there's room for Demandred.

I also don't see Taim fooling Semirhage and Mesaana.

I also toss out Shara and the Shadow Coast, not as much because there is evidence against it (that I can recall), but that there also is zero evidence for it. They've played next to no part in the series whatsoever. While it's possible Demandred may suddenly appear from here, I would find that far less... satisfying. I'd rather he somehow appeared in the Black Tower, or in the Borderlands, with some crazy twist of the story, than a previously un-used region.

FelixPax
07-21-2011, 12:57 PM
I don't see much evidence that he is futzing around the Shadow Coast.

Ample evidence exists. Think.

Awww, well then I still think that Demandred is in charge of the Black Tower still, maybe he is there but has a weave that allows him to control Taim somehow?


At least weaves do exist, however there are noticeable problems with each weave. Any person held and control by one of those weaves, would become like a Grayman or gain a face akin to Tarna Feir, Mezar Kurin at the Black Tower (ToM book).

Neither of those weaves was applied to Demandred as he met Graendal, Mesaana and Moridin in ToM book. Moridin, Graendal, Mesaana each independently would have noticed if something was off with Demandred.

Prior to ToM book, your Demandred theory needs to explain why Asha'man Raefar Kisman received orders from both Taim and Demandred to kill Rand al'Thor (Winter's Heart, Chapter 22). Why did Taim and Demandred each not know of the other's orders to Raefar Kisman?



Edit Addition:

I would also not be so quick to toss Murandy out based soley on the fact that Murandy was a nation with weak influence at the time the Forsaken were released.

No known Steddings nor Ways exist in the current borders of Murandy. Neither Loial, Speaker Corvil, Elder Haman nor Erith mentioned a Ways gate in Murandy. This fact is a major problem was any Theory claiming Demandred is active in Murandy. Why? Sammael's claim Demandred was using the Ways.


Separately Sammael made an offer to Rand, that no Chosen would attack his nations of Andor, Cairhien, Tear out of a given geography territory. This territory include Murandy up to the City of Lugard. Sammael knew Murandy well enough to take Land from Murandy, to add to his Illian Crown. No chance Demandred would back down to Sammael, if Murandy was truly his possession.

Juan
07-21-2011, 01:13 PM
It's not that crazy... I believe someone suggested this a while ago... Also, as felix said, too difficult to pull off.. And it just seems very cheesy.

Lupusdeusest
07-22-2011, 06:25 AM
Re the Shadow Coast, this may be a loony theory, but...

There are at least 2 abandoned steddings in that area (I wish I could find that bloody map again!). Trollocs etc we have established cannot move through the Ways in large groups. Using different paths, could an army have been accumulated there, and the branch that attacked Tylee be but a segment of it?

It doesn't seem to be more than a "side project", though. He talks of his "rule", and that hardly jives with sitting around with a bunch of bored Trollocs.
Also, what of food for this army? Would refugees alone feed it?
Someone's probably thought of this before, and I've already mostly debunked it. Lol.

Lupusdeusest
07-22-2011, 06:49 AM
I FOUND IT I FOUND IT I FOUND IT

... or rather I found one; this is not the original map I recall.

http://sevenbridges.deviantart.com/art/Wheel-of-Time-Western-Lands-169743789?q=gallery%3Asevenbridges%2F13856047&qo=10

There is also this passage from the Encyclopaedia on chapter 20 of LoC:

Haman goes over the maps marking the stedding where there are Waygates. There are seven in the Borderlands. There are thirteen in the Spine of the World including one in Kinslayer's Dagger, from Stedding Shangtai in the south to Stedding Qichen and Stedding Sanshen in the north. Stedding Cantoine is just above the River Iralell not far north of Haddon Mirk. There are only four in the land west of the Spine of the World including the youngest, Stedding Tsofu repopulated only six hundred years ago. There are six stedding in the Mountains of Mist. There are also stedding in the Shadow Coast, the Black Hills, the forests above the River Ivo and the mountains above the River Dhagon. There are abandoned stedding in the Spine of the World, the Mountains of Mist, the Shadow Coast, one on Almoth Plain near the Paerish Swar and one on the north coast of Toman Head. Stedding Sherandu and Stedding Chandar were swallowed by the Blight. Haman then lists Ogier built cities with Waygates, Caemlyn, Tar Valon, Tear, Illian, Cairhien, Maradon, Ebou Dar (Barashta), Mafal Dadaranell, Ancohima, Londaren Cor, Manetheren, Aren Mador, Aridhol, Shaemal, Deranbar, Braem, Condaris, Hai Ecorimon, Iman.

(I'm still gleeful from finding that map. Perhaps I should have checked deviantART first... but I swapped "map" for "cartography" as I knew I'd get the serious ones then...)