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greatwolf
07-23-2011, 06:31 AM
Should there be a thread on channeling ideas? I've seen a few neat ideas over the years, the most recent being the one about tying off weaves in battle. And I think it might be nice to have all the ideas in one thread.

Right now I'm wondering if cuendillar shields would work, if they were made as thin as possible-maybe even one cell thick. It should be possible for a large circle and fortunately, a man who lead the circle and men are usually stronger with earth which would be required to make the metal very thin and also to set it.

What do you guys think?

GonzoTheGreat
07-23-2011, 06:54 AM
All right, let's suppose you're carrying such a shield, I bang into the top part of it (with a war hammer, for instance), making your shield twist and cut your throat. In what way, precisely, is such a very thin shield nice to have?

greatwolf
07-23-2011, 02:23 PM
Cuendillar won't twist from the force of a blow.

The Warder separated out the largest piece, then raised the knife high and brought it down with all his might. A spark flew, the fragment leaped with the force of the blow, and the blade snapped with a sharp crack. He examined the stump left attached to the hilt, then tossed it aside. "The best steel from Tear," he said dryly.
Mat snatched the fragment up and grunted, then showed it around. There was no mark on it.
"Cuendillar," Moiraine said. "Heartstone. No one has been able to make it since the Age of Legends, and even then it was made only for the greatest purpose. Once made, nothing can break it. Not the One Power itself wielded by the greatest Aes Sedai who ever lived aided by the most powerful sa'angreal ever made. Any power directed against heartstone only makes it stronger."

It would even protect against BF. Of course, its possible to make weave that would get past it as long as they're not directed at it, but then even a sword point can get past any shield. Its not supposed to be foolproof, just to improve survival of assets on the battlefield.

JOS
07-23-2011, 02:36 PM
Cuendillar won't twist from the force of a blow.

No it won't, but I think Gonzo was saying that your wrists/ arm/ grip would twist. It would be worthwhile to blunt the edge of such a shield (prior to changing to cuendillar), to avoid decapitation.

greatwolf
07-23-2011, 02:51 PM
If I understand the quote I gave earlier correctly, cuendillar will also absorb impact and strengthen itself with it. Yet I wasn't advocating foolishness on the battlefield.

The foxhead might be better protection, but it seems to be a bit too complex for Elayne at the moment. It seems to me this will be easier to mass produce.

The seanchan damane already have experience at making cuendillar for the adam. And Egwene can produce the effect in a flash. So it shouldn't be too difficult.

Zombie Sammael
07-23-2011, 03:37 PM
If I understand the quote I gave earlier correctly, cuendillar will also absorb impact and strengthen itself with it. Yet I wasn't advocating foolishness on the battlefield.

If it's unbreakable to begin with, how do you know it gets stronger?

The Unreasoner
07-23-2011, 04:52 PM
If it's unbreakable to begin with, how do you know it gets stronger?

yeah..this has always bugged me too

JOS
07-23-2011, 10:52 PM
If I understand the quote I gave earlier correctly, cuendillar will also absorb impact and strengthen itself with it.

EotW ch 52 from above:
The Warder separated out the largest piece, then raised the knife high and brought it down with all his might. A spark flew, the fragment leaped with the force of the blow, and the blade snapped with a sharp crack . . .

It does not appear absorb kinetic energy. I am such a dork, I was wondering if adsorption or absorption was a more appropriate word . . .

But back to your original idea of the shield, it would be wicked awesome to have an unbreakable shield that was OP resistant. You would be like Captain America.

FelixPax
07-23-2011, 11:00 PM
If I understand the quote I gave earlier correctly, cuendillar will also absorb impact and strengthen itself with it. Yet I wasn't advocating foolishness on the battlefield.


Cuendillar will not "always" absorb impact and strengthen itself, if Matrim Cauthon's cuendillar Raven Spear is anything to go by in a scene found in Towers of Midnight book.

Cuendillar can be damaged, if a 'Worlds are Merging'----as of Towers of Midnight book, Mat Cauthon point of view.

Even Healing Weaves do not operate the same way, if 'Worlds are Merging'--as of Towers of Midnight book, Perrin point of view.

greatwolf
07-26-2011, 01:14 PM
It does not appear absorb kinetic energy. I am such a dork, I was wondering if adsorption or absorption was a more appropriate word . . .

But back to your original idea of the shield, it would be wicked awesome to have an unbreakable shield that was OP resistant. You would be like Captain America.

One other way it could be used is a form of body armour. Especially for channelers who don't have access to the medallion. It could make quite a difference in an OP fight. Of course, it isn't needed if you have a ward like demandred's. Or it could allow one to form another ward while using the armour for basic defense.

@ Felix - I'll check those quotes.

ArtK
07-26-2011, 05:01 PM
Make them out of cuendillar. Granted, you'd still need plenty of weight attached (to reduce recoil energy) but that could be made of cast lead, or whatever was available.

Of course, what they really need are trunions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trunnion). The only way I can see them getting into Randland without a Deus ex Machina is if Egwene or another dream-walker finds herself in an alternate world battlefield where the cannons have them. Or perhaps happens to look in on one of Napoleon's dreams or such.

The Unreasoner
07-26-2011, 09:34 PM
How exactly do the random openings in random locations not carve up a herd of cattle or kill a few refugees?

The Unreasoner
07-26-2011, 11:13 PM
Perhaps the Power could be used to make prosthetic limbs? A ter'angreal of some sort? Maybe even a hand of black cuendillar? I'm sure Nynaeve and Flinn together could attach it, and Elayne, Aviendha, and perhaps Rand himself could make it.

GonzoTheGreat
07-27-2011, 03:46 AM
How exactly do the random openings in random locations not carve up a herd of cattle or kill a few refugees?They do, now and then. But that's far away, so no worries.

greatwolf
07-27-2011, 05:55 AM
Perhaps the Power could be used to make prosthetic limbs? A ter'angreal of some sort? Maybe even a hand of black cuendillar? I'm sure Nynaeve and Flinn together could attach it, and Elayne, Aviendha, and perhaps Rand himself could make it.

I don't see why not. Except that idea probably will not occur to most healers especially nynaeve. She'd see it as a failure of sorts I think. It wouldn't require too much skill or knowledge and it might be possible to make stuff that would be almost like having say, a bionic hand with the OP.

It might require the maker to have some understanding of mechanics though. Something that the aolers may have.

How exactly do the random openings in random locations not carve up a herd of cattle or kill a few refugees

They probably do. But with towns disappearing, ghosts and everything else, who's going to make a fuss about it?

Make them out of cuendillar. Granted, you'd still need plenty of weight attached (to reduce recoil energy) but that could be made of cast lead, or whatever was available.

Physics. What happened to my physics? I guess they'd have to balance the weight of cuendillar needed against recoil. Or do they?

GonzoTheGreat
07-27-2011, 06:22 AM
Make them out of cuendillar. Granted, you'd still need plenty of weight attached (to reduce recoil energy) but that could be made of cast lead, or whatever was available.Good idea. So now the procedure is:
-Make a cannon out of cuendillar.
-Drill holes in it so as to attach the lead ... :D

JOS
07-27-2011, 08:13 AM
How exactly do the random openings in random locations not carve up a herd of cattle or kill a few refugees?

Skimming space, easier to open those gateways anyway.

Marie Curie 7
07-27-2011, 11:46 AM
Skimming space, easier to open those gateways anyway.

The Deathgates don't open into the skimming space.

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 19 - Vows

"A close run thing," Logain muttered. "If this had happened before I arrived. . . A close-run thing." He gave himself a shake and released the Source, turning away from his glassless window. "Did you intend keeping these new weaves for your favorites, like Taim? Those gateways. Where did we send those Trollocs? I just copied your weave exactly."

"It doesnít matter where they went," Rand said absently. His attention was focused on Lews Therin. The madman, the bloody voice in his head, drew a little deeper on the Power. Let go. man. "Shadowspawn can't survive passing through a gateway."

I want to die, Lews Therin said. I want to join llyena.

If you really wanted to die, why did you kill Trollocs? Rand thought. Why kill that Myrddraal?

"People will find groups of dead Trollocs and maybe Myrddraal without a mark on them," he said aloud.

I seem to remember dying. Lews Therin murmured. I remember how I did it. He drew deeper still, and small pains grew in Randís temples.

"Not too many in any one place, though. The destination shifts every time a Deathgate opens." Rand rubbed at his temples. That pain was a warning. He was close to the amount of saidin he could hold without dying or being burnt out. You can't die yet, he told Lews Therin. We have to reach Tarmon Gai'don or the world dies.

ArtK
07-27-2011, 12:49 PM
Good idea. So now the procedure is:
-Make a cannon out of cuendillar.
-Drill holes in it so as to attach the lead ... :D

-Make a cannon out of iron
-drill holes to attach the lead
-convert it to Cuendillar

Although I was thinking more of flanges of some sort, that the lead could be attached to.

The Unreasoner
07-27-2011, 05:32 PM
I don't see why not. Except that idea probably will not occur to most healers especially nynaeve. She'd see it as a failure of sorts I think. It wouldn't require too much skill or knowledge and it might be possible to make stuff that would be almost like having say, a bionic hand with the OP.
I had the idea when I first read the part about Callandor in an onyx fist. A sort of Anakin/Wormtail/Luke thing going. I had forgotten about it until I was hunting spambots and saw Tamyrlin in the archives.
They probably do. But with towns disappearing, ghosts and everything else, who's going to make a fuss about it?
Well I would have hoped Rand would, at least. But Rand Sedai used Deathgates at Maradon, no?

@marie curie
Considering the nature of this thread, do you see any reason why Skimming gateways wouldn't work as an alternative?

JOS
07-28-2011, 08:50 AM
The Deathgates don't open into the skimming space.

Bummer. But I still think it would work better if they did.

GonzoTheGreat
07-28-2011, 09:07 AM
I think that the danger to bystanders of the Deathgates is a bit overrated.

Suppose that a Deathgate is 10 meters wide, and lasts for 100 meters. That's a fairly massive thing (most would be smaller), and if it is well aimed it could easily kill dozens of Trollocs. Assuming that sometimes it doesn't go that well, we can take ten dead Trollocs per Deathgate as a reasonable estimate, I think.
The total surface area of Earth is a bit over 500 million square kilometer. If there are 500 million people alive at the end of the Third Age, that makes for a population density of one per square kilometer. That is probably a rather high estimate, but that doesn't hurt my argument any.
The area covered by a Deathgate is one thousandth of a square kilometer (10 by 100 meter). So the chance of hitting anyone is one in a thousand.
Which means, of course, that you would get a kill ratio of 10,000 dead Trollocs for every human. That seems like an acceptable loss, if the alternative is charging in with swords and pikes and trying to kill them that way.

So yes, if Deathgates were used on a large scale there would be some casualties. But if they aren't used, then there would almost certainly be far more casualties.

And, since passing through a Deathgate is not necessarily lethal for humans, it is even possible that some of the victims would survive it. Of course, then they're right in the middle of an army of Trollocs, but you can't have everything.

greatwolf
07-29-2011, 01:12 PM
Well I would have hoped Rand would, at least. But Rand Sedai used Deathgates at Maradon, no?


Did he? I don't remember any specifics. But the sheer number and scope of work for the DR seems to have overwhelmed Rand. Let's see what the new Rand/LT has been upto. He's had enough time to come up with some solutions.

@marie curie
Considering the nature of this thread, do you see any reason why Skimming gateways wouldn't work as an alternative?

Well maybe because skimming requires the presence of the channeler to remain open. OTOH, ot might work just fine like that.

The Unreasoner
07-29-2011, 01:40 PM
Did he? I don't remember any specifics. But the sheer number and scope of work for the DR seems to have overwhelmed Rand. Let's see what the new Rand/LT has been upto. He's had enough time to come up with some solutions.



Well maybe because skimming requires the presence of the channeler to remain open. OTOH, ot might work just fine like that.

He did use deathgates at Maradon (though it may have been a skimming version)

Deathgates sprang up, striking across the ground, killing hundreds.