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Ishara
07-23-2011, 11:17 AM
To recap the concept:

First, pop over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5669) for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

(And remember: a new character of the week does preclude continuing discussion on past topics!)

This week, we'll be discussing: Moiraine Damodred

Moiraine remains one of the most mysterious characters in the WoT pantheon.

Feel free to cover information ranging from ALL books, which means that those who have NOT read ToM had better BEWARE SPOILERS.

Potential topics for discussion?

You may know by now that I have been vehemently against the return of Moiraine for years (I hooped on Frenzy's wagon, or we drove side-by-side, take your pick.) I strongly believe that the rescue of the damsel in distress in the highest tower did a hell of a lot more harm than it did good - to both Moiraine the character as well to the concept that RJ and WoT show strong female characters, dissimilar to most fantasy out there. If Moiraine, the female equivalent to Gandalf, needs to be rescued, then what hope do the rest of them have? So, let's explore both the prodigal return, as well as the positive and negative effects her return will cause.

What will Rand do when he finds out she's back? What will SHE do when she sees him again?

What could Moiraine possibly do to affect the success of Rand in winning the Last Battle?

Are Moiraine and Thom destined for love? Unfortunately it seems so. For an author who would set up plays in book 1 that wouldn't see fruition until book 10, I found their so-called courtship to be lacking, which left me feeling very ambivalent about the letter and their supposed love. I have been over-ruled by a snuggling Moiraine. (Unhappy face) Even if they are, will she succumb to personal happiness or forever pursue the greater good? Again, it seems as if we saw the answer to this in ToM, what with the stupid snuggling, but Rand apparently needs her, so what now? How to balance those two competing interests?

How DID she and Lan arrive in the Two Rivers right on time?

Sarevok
07-23-2011, 11:37 AM
What will Rand do when he finds out she's back? What will SHE do when she sees him again?
He'll probably feel even better than he already does.
She'll probably be happy to find he's been coping so well.

What could Moiraine possibly do to affect the success of Rand in winning the Last Battle?
Take over from Cadsuane in counseling? Not really sure, otherwise.

How to balance those two competing interests?
She'll probably go to find Rand right at the start of aMoL (or possibly after she helps Mat clean up whatever is happening in Caemlyn).

How DID she and Lan arrive in the Two Rivers right on time?
Pure luck, probably ta'veren-influenced.

Kimon
07-23-2011, 11:39 AM
What could Moiraine possibly do to affect the success of Rand in winning the Last Battle?



There seems to be three likely possibilities.

1. She will be one of the two ladies needed to link with Rand to use Callandor in TG. Maybe this was the crux, and what Min saw with Alivia was really an "if" - If it's Moiraine, victory. If it's Alivia, "I have won again, Lews Therin".

2. She has some special knowledge brought back from the finn. Maybe she learned how to seal the DO safely.

3. She saves Rand from Cyndane. Certainly at the end of ToM we saw Cyndane's trap, and it certainly looked like Rand was apt to fall into it.

jana
07-23-2011, 12:36 PM
Are Moiraine and Thom destined for love? Unfortunately it seems so. For an author who would set up plays in book 1 that wouldn't see fruition until book 10, I found their so-called courtship to be lacking, which left me feeling very ambivalent about the letter and their supposed love. I have been over-ruled by a snuggling Moiraine. (Unhappy face) Even if they are, will she succumb to personal happiness or forever pursue the greater good? Again, it seems as if we saw the answer to this in ToM, what with the stupid snuggling, but Rand apparently needs her, so what now? How to balance those two competing interests?

I was burned out on discussing most of this in October, so I'll just reply to this part.

IF Moiraine and Thom are "cute" in the last book, then I will agree with some of what you've said and be annoyed.

But I don't think there is any chance of that. I think she's gotten it out of her system and will be completely business like. We definitely didn't see the answer to your question in ToM. We saw someone having a reaction to seeing humans for the first time in 10 months.

I just don't see Moiraine acting in any way similar to the way she acted in Towers of Midnight in public. I don't consider Mat to be "public" after what the three of them just shared.

But if I'm wrong I will agree with you because I don't want her to be acting romantical either. I was fine with it in those circumstances but I think it's done now and she'll be back to being Cairhienin.

David Selig
07-23-2011, 01:16 PM
She should've stayed dead. Unfortunately Jordan loved his "woman needs saving" plotlines WAY too much, and overused them shamelessly in WoT, and couldn't leave Moiraine without one of those for her. I suspect Cadsuane will get captured and saved in AMOL, it's long overdue.

What will Rand do when he finds out she's back?
"Damn, I wasted so much time mentioning her in my "Dead Women list", and she's been alive all along? I am such an woolhead. ;)"

Again, it seems as if we saw the answer to this in ToM, what with the stupid snuggling, but Rand apparently needs her, so what now? How to balance those two competing interests?
She'd be all business once she gets close to Rand and the important things going on in Randland. I just can't see anything else from her, she's been preparing her whole life for this moment, her love life can wait.

FelixPax
07-23-2011, 02:06 PM
Potential topics for discussion?

You may know by now that I have been vehemently against the return of Moiraine for years (I hooped on Frenzy's wagon, or we drove side-by-side, take your pick.) I strongly believe that the rescue of the damsel in distress in the highest tower did a hell of a lot more harm than it did good - to both Moiraine the character as well to the concept that RJ and WoT show strong female characters, dissimilar to most fantasy out there.

Recall the Promise, Rand gave to Moiraine at the very beginning of 'The Eye of the World'?

Moiraine has never called due, Rand's Promise.
Rand's Promise, I believe shall be the death of him and almost every Shadowspawn.


A huge exception is Moghedien. The Spider knows how and can survive literally anything.


Quite morbid actually, shall Moiraine call upon Rand al'Thor to killed himself to try to 'save a world' against Shadowspawn?

Moiraine and her Aes Sedai plots... Nynaeve's assumptions about Moiraine were on the ball in the beginning. (See tEotW, Chapter 21 "Listen to the Wind")


Moiraine's assumptions about the three ta'veren boys, should be upset in the next book, by a fourth ta'veren appearance. Moiraine pushed Rand al'Thor to make a claim he was the 'Dragon Reborn'. Nynaeve knows this, Moiraine's a manipulator.

GonzoTheGreat
07-23-2011, 03:23 PM
Recall the Promise, Rand gave to Moiraine at the very beginning of 'The Eye of the World'?Promise?
I promised to unload the cider.

Of course, it's possible you're thinking of the more prosaic, but also less certain:
"I can never repay you," he told her without taking his eyes from Tam, "but anything I can do for you, I will. Anything at all." He remembered the talk of prices, then, and his promise. Kneeling beside Tam he meant it even more than before, but it still was not easy to look at her. "Anything. As long as it does not hurt the village, or my friends."

PS It's really tempting to add a NeotW quote. I would've, if I had known a good one.

Zombie Sammael
07-23-2011, 03:33 PM
I find it quite frustrating that both Moiraine and Siuan have seemingly had to give up strength in the One Power in order to find true love. What is the problem with powerful women, or for these two? Elayne seems comfortable with Rand, and Egwene has managed to reach an accommodation with Gawyn. Why do Moiraine and Siuan need to lose OP strength to get with Thom and Bryn?

GonzoTheGreat
07-23-2011, 04:30 PM
I find it quite frustrating that both Moiraine and Siuan have seemingly had to give up strength in the One Power in order to find true love. What is the problem with powerful women, or for these two? Elayne seems comfortable with Rand, and Egwene has managed to reach an accommodation with Gawyn. Why do Moiraine and Siuan need to lose OP strength to get with Thom and Bryn?The point with them is perhaps not so much giving up strength, as it is becoming less single minded. For a couple of decades, both had been focused purely on finding and 'helping'* the Dragon Reborn. During all that time they had been either convinced that they did not have time for romantic entanglements, or they had not even considered the possibility. Now their whole approach has been thrashed, either by losing the Amyrlin Seat (Siuan) or by being removed from the DR and having most of her channeling ability taken away (Moiraine). So they have to reinvent themselves, and now find that they do have some room for love after all.

Elayne doesn't have this problem; she managed to combine a focus on the DR with being in love. Egwene ... well, I'll refrain from cluttering up this thread with her. And Cadsuane is gonna hook up with Valan Luca as soon as they meet.

* Controlling.

FelixPax
07-24-2011, 12:03 AM
Promise?


Of course, it's possible you're thinking of the more prosaic, but also less certain:

Laugh, Rand's very first promise was to his father to unload the cider. ;)

Gonzo nailed it, meanwhile Lan goes all morose in front of Rand:


“A little more light in the darkness,” the Aes Sedai murmured. She raised her voice. “How are your dreams, Rand al’Thor?”
He stared at her. “My dreams?”

“A night like that can give a man bad dreams, Rand. If you have nightmares, you must tell me of it. I can help with bad dreams, sometimes.”

“There’s nothing wrong with my . . . It’s my father. He’s hurt. It’s not much more than a scratch, but the fever is burning him up. The Wisdom won’t help. She says she can’t. But the stories—” She raised an eyebrow, and he stopped and swallowed hard. Light, is there a story with an Aes Sedai where she isn’t a villain? He looked at the Warder, but Lan appeared more interested in the dead Trolloc than in anything Rand might say. Fumbling his way under her eyes, he went on. “I . . . ah . . . it’s said Aes Sedai can heal. If you can help him . . . anything you can do for him . . . whatever the cost . . . I mean . . . ” He took a deep breath and finished up in a rush. “I’ll pay any price in my power if you help him. Anything.”

“Any price,” Moiraine mused, half to herself. “We will speak of prices later, Rand, if at all. I can make no promises. Your Wisdom knows what she is about. I will do what I can, but it is beyond my power to stop the Wheel from turning.”

“Death comes sooner or later to everyone,” the Warder said grimly, “unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price.”

Moiraine made a clucking sound. “Do not be so gloomy, Lan. We have some reason to celebrate. A small one, but a reason.” She used the staff to pull herself to her feet. “Take me to your father, Rand. I will help him as much as I am able. Too many here have refused to let me help at all. They have heard the stories, too,” she added dryly.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 7 "Out of the Woods" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Moiraine, Lan


On a more positive side, I've frequently wondered if Blaes of Matuchin was re-born as Moiraine Damodred? Where might Matuchin Hall be?

“ . . . since the day of her birth has the Dark One marked Blaes as his own, but not of this mind is she—no Darkfriend, Blaes of Matuchin! Strong as the ash she stands, lithe as the willow branch, beautiful as the rose. Golden-haired Blaes. Ready to die before she yields. But hark! Echoing from the towers of the city, trumpets blare, brazen and bold. Her heralds proclaim the arrival of a hero at her court. Drums thunder and cymbals sing! Rogosh Eagle-eye comes to do homage . . . ”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 17 "Watchers and Hunters" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; Thom telling a story in a Baerlon Inn


Or if Dunsinin soul perhaps was re-born as Moiraine?

“ . . . cold blows the wind down Shara Pass; cold lies the grave unmarked. Yet every year at Sunday, upon those piled stones appears a single rose, one crystal teardrop like dew upon the petals, laid by the fair hand of Dunsinin, for she keeps fast to the bargain made by Rogosh Eagle-eye.”


The Great Hunt, Chapter 25 "Cairhien" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Thom

Always fun to speculate who is who, historical to present. Doesn't hurt that ties have direct plot outcome too.

The Unreasoner
07-24-2011, 12:33 AM
I realize this is pretty stupid but fwiw I thought one of Moiraine's wishes was to go back in time. After TFoH I thought she was Mordaine. I hinged this on Moiraine wondering what would come of the Aiel in the end, and some of the Aiel memories of Aes Sedai.

But, of couse, in LoC I found out that stepping outside of time was beyond the DO, and so I figured it was beyond the Finn.

Zombie Sammael
07-24-2011, 07:49 AM
But, of couse, in LoC I found out that stepping outside of time was beyond the DO, and so I figured it was beyond the Finn.

Why? The Finn apparently have the power to do just that, if their interactions with Matrim Cauthon are anything to go by - they plucked those memories from somewhere, as they did with the Foxhead, and the ashandarei. If they can grab things out of time, why should they be unable to drop them back in?

The Unreasoner
07-24-2011, 11:19 AM
it took me a while to find this:
With his Far Dareis Mai escort, Rand approached the Rhuidean Roof of the Maidens. White stairs as wide as the tall building, each step a stride deep, ran up to thick columns twenty paces high, black-seeming in the twilight but bright blue by day, and fluted in spirals. The outside of the building was a patterned mosaic of glazed tiles, white and blue in spirals that appeared endless to the eye, and a huge window of colored glass directly above the columns showed a black-haired woman fifteen feet tall, in complicated blue robes, right hand upraised, either to bless or command a halt. Her face was serene and stern at the same time. Whoever she had been, she was surely no Aiel, not with that pale skin and those dark eyes. An Aes Sedai, perhaps. He tapped his pipe out on his bootheel and stuffed it into his coat pocket before starting up the steps.
-From tFoH
So mystery Aes Sedai in the tiles looking suspiciously like Moiraine (or Lanfear), I thought it was reasonably possible that the tiles were made to depict Mordaine, who might have been the last Aes Sedai to visit Rhuidean. After Moiraine went through the doorway, I thought she went back through time for some unknown reason. But Mordaine has white hair, and while that doesn't preclude Illusion, it makes the case for Mordaine being depicted in the tiles less strong.

@Zombie Sammael
As far as I know, nothing the Finn do demands time travel.

Ishara
07-24-2011, 11:45 AM
I find it quite frustrating that both Moiraine and Siuan have seemingly had to give up strength in the One Power in order to find true love. What is the problem with powerful women, or for these two? Elayne seems comfortable with Rand, and Egwene has managed to reach an accommodation with Gawyn. Why do Moiraine and Siuan need to lose OP strength to get with Thom and Bryn?

Ugh. Agreed. As if RJ set up the two most powerful women in the world, and then knocked them down to be rescued by, and dependent on, men. Blech. Makes me feel all squicky inside.

Why? The Finn apparently have the power to do just that, if their interactions with Matrim Cauthon are anything to go by - they plucked those memories from somewhere, as they did with the Foxhead, and the ashandarei. If they can grab things out of time, why should they be unable to drop them back in?

So, this delves (again) into Finnlore, but the memories came from adventurers and travellers who ventured into Finnland, most likely from the Redstone Doors. The *Finn, as part of their interaction with humans, delve into memories, and in the case of these men, latched onto them in such a way that they were able to continue mining their memories, even after they had left the realm of the *Finn and gone back to their lives until their deaths (in battle, for most of them). Those memories were what were given to Mat to fill in the wholes of his own memory.

So, it doesn't mean that they can go back in time so much as it means that they just had a bunch of really old memories from a long time ago, as they have been around a very long time.

FelixPax
07-24-2011, 02:24 PM
I realize this is pretty stupid but fwiw I thought one of Moiraine's wishes was to go back in time. After TFoH I thought she was Mordaine.

You were on the right train of thought previously....


Laughing, you missed Brandon Sanderson claiming during a book tour that people seen during the Rhuidean scenes (Rand's pov via Mandein) were re-born major characters?

Moiraine, Thom among others.


Which meant Thom/Dermon possibly had a second wife, in Rhuidean, other than Mordaine/Moiraine soul? Or from Mordaine's point of view, a sister-wife?

Narisse?


Can't say I know who Narisse's soul was with any degree certainty at this point. However, I'd laugh hilariously if Narisse was the same soul, as Nynaeve al'Meara.

Why so amusing?

Because Nynaeve has questioned any women's taste who would find Thom attractive as a lover, to Nynaeve's utter jealousy, rage, mixed emotions directly aimed at Moiraine and her control over Lan.


Perhaps once a lover of Thom's in a prior lifetime, and a sister-wife to Moiraine to boot? :D ;)


The old gleeman always seemed to put together rumors and whispers and come up with right answers far more often than not. No, not a gleeman; she had to remember that. Whatever he might claim, he had been a court-bard, and had probably seen court intrigue like that in his stories at close hand. Perhaps even dabbled in it himself, if he had been Morgase’s lover. She eyed him sideways, that leathery face with bushy white eyebrows, those long mustaches as snowy as the hair on his head. There was no accounting for some women’s taste.


The Fires of Heaven Chapter 17 "Heading West" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view; her thoughts


A gaunt white-haired man, tall if stooped, came forward from the Jenn flanked by two graying women who might have been sisters, with the same deep-set green eyes and the same way of tilting their heads when they looked at anything. The rest of the Jenn stared uneasily at the earth rather than at the Aiel, but not these three.

“I am Dermon,” the man said in a deep strong voice, his blue eyed scrutiny as steady as any Aiel’s. “These are Mordaine and Narisse.” He gestured to the women beside him in turn. “We speak for Rhuidean, and the Jenn Aiel.”


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 25 "The Road to the Spear" -- Rand al'Thor point of view via Mandein

WinespringBrother
07-25-2011, 09:30 AM
Ugh. Agreed. As if RJ set up the two most powerful women in the world, and then knocked them down to be rescued by, and dependent on, men. Blech. Makes me feel all squicky inside.

Siuan and Moiraine are weaker in the One Power (which I think everyone believes is a dumb ranking system anyway), but I don't see them as weaker because of that change. They are still powerful in terms of personality and commitment. Besides, Moiraine was acting weak in TFOH to manipulate Rand, so that aspect was kind of foreshadowed. I believe She will be her normal strong self when seeing Rand, at least on the inside.

You were on the right train of thought previously....

Laughing, you missed Brandon Sanderson claiming during a book tour that people seen during the Rhuidean scenes (Rand's pov via Mandein) were re-born major characters?

[INDENT]Moiraine, Thom among others.



Quotes please???

David Selig
07-25-2011, 09:47 AM
Ugh. Agreed. As if RJ set up the two most powerful women in the world, and then knocked them down to be rescued by, and dependent on, men. Blech. Makes me feel all squicky inside.

Don't forget Morgase too, who found "True Love" only after she lost the power she had. It's an unfortunate trend in Jordan's writing.

GonzoTheGreat
07-25-2011, 11:23 AM
Don't forget Morgase too, who found "True Love" only after she lost the power she had. It's an unfortunate trend in Jordan's writing.If you're making a list, you can add (Ama-)Thera to it too. Perhaps Egeanin also belongs on the list.

Perhaps Romanda will be next.

Ishara
07-25-2011, 11:44 AM
You wish. :p

Any indication of how the meeting between Cadsuane and Moiraine will go? I feel that Cadsuane was close to a personality breakthrough towards the end of ToM, in no small part because of Tam. Do we think that seeing Moiraine, and her hopefully positive reunion with Rand will take her all the way there, or will she have to fight as hard as Nynaeve to get into her inner circle?

WinespringBrother
07-25-2011, 11:58 AM
You wish. :p

Any indication of how the meeting between Cadsuane and Moiraine will go? I feel that Cadsuane was close to a personality breakthrough towards the end of ToM, in no small part because of Tam. Do we think that seeing Moiraine, and her hopefully positive reunion with Rand will take her all the way there, or will she have to fight as hard as Nynaeve to get into her inner circle?

I wouldn't mind if Moiraine made Cads grovel, but I'm not gonna hold my breath on that lol I won't be happy if Moiraine defers to her though :(

I hope Rand wises up regarding Moiraine, since he basically ignored her for the most part since he ran away after Falme, and didn't really accept her guidance though he did have important reasons for some of it(like becoming Car'a'carn). So it will be interesting what kind of welcome she gets, though I'm assuming it will be a positive one.

ArtK
07-25-2011, 07:12 PM
You may know by now that I have been vehemently against the return of Moiraine for years (I hooped on Frenzy's wagon, or we drove side-by-side, take your pick.) I strongly believe that the rescue of the damsel in distress in the highest tower did a hell of a lot more harm than it did good - to both Moiraine the character as well to the concept that RJ and WoT show strong female characters, dissimilar to most fantasy out there. If Moiraine, the female equivalent to Gandalf, needs to be rescued, then what hope do the rest of them have?

[...]

Are Moiraine and Thom destined for love? Unfortunately it seems so. For an author who would set up plays in book 1 that wouldn't see fruition until book 10, I found their so-called courtship to be lacking, which left me feeling very ambivalent about the letter and their supposed love. I have been over-ruled by a snuggling Moiraine. (Unhappy face) Even if they are, will she succumb to personal happiness or forever pursue the greater good? Again, it seems as if we saw the answer to this in ToM, what with the stupid snuggling, but Rand apparently needs her, so what now? How to balance those two competing interests?

Two points to start with:

1. Thom is old, perhaps even older than he looks, if he had some (never used) ability to channel. We don't know what Thom was up to before the Andoran War of Succession, but he may well have visited the Cairhienen court when she was a young, impressionable girl before she went to the Tower.

2. Moiraine has been through the "rings", and remembers a few crucial facts from her alternate futures. Because of this, she may have known to interpret what was just a little harmless flirting on Thom's part as something much more. (And don't forget that Cairhienen women are very skitty about being seen/known to have done "improper" things, not actually doing them.)

These two points in mind, remember that Moiraine is blue ajah, the one most dedicated to manipulating people. Given her knowledge from the rings, Moiraine set up conditions so she would be rescued before she ever confronted Lanfear. RJ never made a secret of this. How can you regard her as "weak" because she uses her own life as a tool of manipulation? Even if it's not any sacrifice for her?

Something I just remembered, Moiraine implied she knew whom she would marry back in FoH (IIRC), before she ever arrived in Rhuidean. Presumably Min told her. IMO that just strengthens my other arguments.

What will Rand do when he finds out she's back? What will SHE do when she sees him again?

What could Moiraine possibly do to affect the success of Rand in winning the Last Battle?

I don't want to get into any Egwene bashing here, she's a barely post-teen girl struggling with world-shaking powers and responsibilities, but...

Egwene has already as much as said she wasn't going to let Rand break the seals. Remember that Min said Perrin had to be there two times for Rand, or "something very bad will happen". Well, it's my guess that both Perrin and Moiraine will have to intervene with Egwene to prevent her from trying to interfere with what the Dragon Reborn has to do (break the seals).

How DID she and Lan arrive in the Two Rivers right on time?

The following is my opinion, based on my impressions from what I read:

IMO the myrddraal had been scouting the Two Rivers, waiting for Moiraine's arrival. Not that as such, perhaps, but some event prophesied in the dark prophesies, that Moiraine's arrival was the fulfillment of.

Ishamael was "playing" both the Aes Sedai and the Dragon Reborn, he had no intention of killing him, or even actually capturing him. His actual objectives are a little shadowy, but IMO he pretty much accomplished what he wanted, manipulating Moiraine into taking them from the Two Rivers. (Shadar Logoth may have not been in his plans, however. Or perhaps it was.)

Any indication of how the meeting between Cadsuane and Moiraine will go? I feel that Cadsuane was close to a personality breakthrough towards the end of ToM, in no small part because of Tam. Do we think that seeing Moiraine, and her hopefully positive reunion with Rand will take her all the way there, or will she have to fight as hard as Nynaeve to get into her inner circle?

Cadsuane is going to turn Moiraine over her knee, or try to. The oath rod won't give her any choice, given the promise she made in New Spring. (Unless that was meant metaphorically, but I doubt it, since Cadsuane had the reputation of having "assulted" at least one Amyrlin. Presumably that was a spanking.)

nameless
07-25-2011, 09:50 PM
Something I just remembered, Moiraine implied she knew whom she would marry back in FoH (IIRC), before she ever arrived in Rhuidean. Presumably Min told her. IMO that just strengthens my other arguments.
This also explains why she was so sure Thom survived the attack at Whitebridge.

Juan
07-26-2011, 12:42 AM
There's few things that bother me as much as feminists complaining about how they/other women are not equal or treated/seen as equal to men.

RJ seems to be trying to teach us a lesson here with this whole thing.

Women are NOT equal to men. There's things men can do that women can't. Or things that men do better than women. There's also things that women can do that men can't. And things that women can do better than men can. They have different psychological thought processes--- differently wired brains, so to speak. They have different physical traits. This all ties in to my previous point about some being better than others at some things, whether in mental abilities or physical abilities.

Women should NOT try and be LIKE men. They're different.. so stay different. That's the beauty of it. That's what makes life interesting. The irony is that if feminists are trying to gain respect for the female sex, they're doing the opposite. They're basically getting rid of their unique and distinguishing characteristics, and trying to become like the male sex. So in a subliminal way, what they're really saying is, the male sex is better and that's why we try to conform to it. That's why we try to emulate it and be like it. I'm not a feminist like that. And I don't know about you, but I'm FOR women's rights and respect all that. And that's why in order for that to be consistent with everything, you need to realize that female and male are two different things. Anyway

When I hear people saying, "oh, it's so terrible, damn that RJ and taking the strongest women characters and making them weak."

Um..... couldn't be more wrong. That's the whole point he's trying to make. Just to name the most notorious. Siuan and Moiraine. He took away what you (the reader) THOUGHT made them strong. In their case it was the One Power. But if you truly believe that, you don't get the series and have crippled these fine characters. What made them strong was their strong, willful personalities. Their cunning. Their loyalty. Their desire for good to prevail. Their intelligence. List goes on and on and on and on and on.

And on.

I would say that a true test of how strong a character is is when you take away all their advantages. You put them down in the dirt. And you can see how they start fresh. How when they fall. They get up. How when penniless, they make a fortune. Or whatever analogy/metaphor you'd like to think of.

And that's exactly what happened to characters such as Siuan and Moiraine. Siuan is stronger than ever before. Remember? She used to get her respect by bullying people around. She was Amyrlin Seat. She was one of the strongest in the Power.. Yeah, it's like might makes right. The big bully in the playground. Now.. she's much better. More down-to-Earth. More real. She's learned to hold her tongue. She's learned to be submissive when need be. A true test of strength is not how strong physically you are or whatever. How humble are you when you have all this authority and power. Or how you gain respect when people see you as weak. What is that one Aes Sedai that Egwene talked to that was weak but wise. And Egwene mentioned to her how the whole system of going by strength is flawed? Yeah... point made. It couldn't be more clear...

Back to Moiraine. Same here. Obviously she just got back. We've yet to see her pick herself up from the ground. But I'm sure she'll deliver and show us how strong she is. Doesn't need to be incredibly strong in the power. Her knowledge is her strength as is her wisdom-- along with all of her other virtues.

Sometimes when you fall down so hard, you can't get up by yourself. You need a hand to get up. You can't always pick yourself up. The harder the fall, the more help you'll need. Siuan needed help in the form of Gareth Bryne to show her virtues of humility etc that she had trouble learning on her own. Someone to encourage her and give her moral support, which is something no one else was giving her and yet something she needed.

Same with Moiraine. She couldn't escape the ToG by herself; she needed help. And now that she's out she'll continue needing help. No one is so perfect they don't need help or rescuing every now and then.

I'd actually argue that if these two characters, and others in similar situations as these, were able to continually get out of trouble by themselves, it would make them superhuman. And for that I'll watch Superman. For all the fictional elements, I like the realism in WOT. And that comes in ALL areas, whether it's because you're favorite characters need help cause they've fallen down hard or whatever. We often have to take a hard beating to be open up and be willing or even be able to learn. You gotta knead the bread first. You gotta melt the metal before you can shape it. Or whatever other analogy you'd like to use.

For me because of all this. Characters like Siuan and Moiraine (yet to be seen in her case), are among the most realistic and relatable characters in the series. Characters have flaws, they aren't perfect. They can't do everything by themselves. These characters are some of RJ's best work for that reason. I'm exhausted and I'm going to bed now. Goodnight.

The Unreasoner
07-26-2011, 09:22 AM
Lot of rationalizations and platitudes there my friend. Not saying I don't agree. Or that I agree for that matter.

On another note, this issue may fall back on the theme of price: take what you want, pay for it. Sometimes others pay the price, sometimes its not worth what you paid.

Moiraine 'wanted' to find and prepare the Dragon. The price exacted was her being held by the Eelfinn, and her loss of Power.

A separate question is "what does her choosing to devote her life to preparing the Dragon say about her character?"

The Angry Druid
07-27-2011, 01:40 PM
What will Rand do when he finds out she's back? What will SHE do when she sees him again?

What could Moiraine possibly do to affect the success of Rand in winning the Last Battle?

Are Moiraine and Thom destined for love?

1. Like many others, I once thought that Mo's return would be the final piece in teaching Rand "laughter and tears," be the end of the list, and be a critical piece in him regaining his mental equilibrium.

Obviously, he's already there, in full Buddha/Rand mode. So, how will he react to her? First off, I think the first he knows of it will be when he sees her. I still say laughter and tears are in the offing. He may even remember Amys' words to him in Cairhein, and adjust accordingly (he still may be a fool about some things: BT, Borderlanders help, Lan, Sea Folk, Aiel, his approach with the AS, etc). Hopefully, he'll re-think some of that stuff.

2. She'll be surprised at the changes. She's still Mo, however. Cool and calm. I foresee something out of Empire Strikes Back:

Mo: Great to see you again, just to bring me up to speed, how are we doing?
Rand: Same as always.
Mo: That bad, huh?

She'll want to be brought up to speed as soon as possible. Meetings with Rand, Eggy, Siuan, Cads, and Nynaeve will all be memorable. She'll always keep the focus on the big picture.

3. What will she do to help Rand?

First off, she's a bridge between nearly all the major players. They all trust her and respect her. Mat, Perrin, and Nynaeve all fall in this category. Elayne somewhat. She's known and respected by the Borderlanders. And somewhat by the Aiel. She'll be an excellent person to bring different factions together. But Rand and Egwene hold her in high regard most of all.

She's someone he trusts, someone the AS hold in awe. Slayer of Forsaken. Hunter of Black Ajah. Rescuer of the Dragon Reborn. She's saved Rand's life. And Mat's. And Perrin's. And Egwene's. How many times each? And Aviendha's as well. She'll be critical in getting the FOM resolved and everyone on the same page. Heck, she even out-legends Cadsuane. Most of all, she will ensure there is no LTT/Latra Posae Decume split this time.

Second off, I think she may have something to help them. Other than Mat, she's the only person I know to have been through both doorways to Finnland. She's had three questions. She's had three wishes. She's paid a terrible price. She's also been through the Rings or Rhuidean. She knows something, or has something. Count on it.

Third, I think she'll be the third with Nynaeve to form the Ring with Rand. Now, I was hopeful she, and Siuan and Leanne, would be "healed" back to full power, but know I'm not so sure given the nature of her loss. Her angreal makes her stronger then she was before, unaided, but I think Rand will want strength with him in the circle. I think the thought of having a reduced Moiraine there will lead to thoughts of bumping her up. Someone will think of Nynaeve, then Flinn and the restored AS around Cairhein, which will do for Siuan and Leanne, but maybe not for Mo. Maybe Nynaeve/Flinn can figure it out between them. Still, I think she goes with Rand regardless.

4. Mo and Thom have been destined for love since book 1, and the hints have been there, in both of their POVs and via there comments. Certainly since tDR and tSR. After that, we do have Thom carrying around her letter. I have no problem with it.

jana
07-27-2011, 01:44 PM
Third, I think she'll be the third with Nynaeve to form the Ring. Now, I was hopeful she, and Siuan and Leanne, would be "healed" back to full power, but know I'm not so sure given the nature of her loss. Her angreal makes her stronger then she was before, unaided, but I think Rand will want strength with him in the circle. I think the thought of having a reduced Moiraine there will lead to thoughts of bumping her up. Someone will think of Flinn, which will do for Siuan and Leanne, but maybe not for Mo. Maybe Nynaeve/Flinn can figure it out between them. Still, I think she goes with Rand regardless.

Your post summed up pretty much all of my thoughts. I think she'll be the third too. I think OP strength will have little or nothing to do with callandor's intended purpose. It's to do with the three people working together.

Enigma
07-27-2011, 04:03 PM
Its possible that Cadsuane may actually treat Moiraine with a measure of respect. Its clear that Cadsuane does not buy into the OP strenght = deference and respect. Cadsuane has a lot of AS in her grouping who are there because of their skills and tallents, not because they are one power powerhouses. She gives all of them a measure of respect.

Secondly Cadsuane has to be aware of what Moiraine has achieved. She did have some thoughts of Moiraine not doing a great job with Rand but having had to deal with him herself she may well come to the realisation that Moiraine did good. After all she kept him alive, helped him prepare for the world and the shadow and if he went his own way well even Cadsuane could not bring Rand to heel.

I can't see her falling over herself in awe of Moiraine but it would be nice to see some respect there for what Moiraine has gone throught and what she has managed to achieve.

Ishara
07-28-2011, 02:13 PM
These two points in mind, remember that Moiraine is blue ajah, the one most dedicated to manipulating people. Given her knowledge from the rings, Moiraine set up conditions so she would be rescued before she ever confronted Lanfear. RJ never made a secret of this. How can you regard her as "weak" because she uses her own life as a tool of manipulation? Even if it's not any sacrifice for her?

Okay, first off the Blue Ajah is that which is dedicated to causes, in her case that of the Dragon Reborn,not manipulation. They all learn manipulation, and she's damn good at it - but that's all beside the point. It has no relevancy unless you're implying that she doesn't actually love Thom and instead manipulated him into falling in love with her so that she could be rescued.

It's well accepted that the Rings do not impart you with prophetic information of the future expect in extremely limited circumstances. It seems to me that you are suggesting that one of the conditions that Moiraine set up in order to assure her rescue in advance of confronting Lanfear was to have Thom fall in love with her. I buy that even less than I buy the fact that they are in love (which I concede to - it happened. Fine.). It could be argued that she had feelings for Thom, or at least that he interested her for more than his connection to Rand in the Stone, BEFORE she went through the Door for her 3 Answers. In which case, maybe she used a tool to hand, but I don't see it. She would have had no knowledge of the impending confrontation unitl her time through the Rings which was later, and by then they were seperated, and the seeds of love were planted.

I want to very clear. I feel that Moiraine's actions that day on the pier, her sacrifice of her own life to ensure that Rand could proceed with his destiny was one of the singlemost brave things that has ever been done in the series so far - right up there with Ingtar and Mat with his eye. I have *never* thought she was weak.

I *do* think that Team Jordan did her character a great disservice by not allowing her to stay dead - to make that sacrifice mean something. I feel that they made it less significant by bringing her back. I also feel that the method and the means by which they brought her back, and the way in which they had her character behave, and what they did to her (i.e. weakening her to ensure she came to "accept" her other strengths) was also a great disservice, and I call bullshit. I will continue to call bullshit until they can show me that bringing her back was a positive thing to do, and I sincerely hope they manage to do that. SHE is not weak, but it's not for lack of trying on their parts!


Something I just remembered, Moiraine implied she knew whom she would marry back in FoH (IIRC), before she ever arrived in Rhuidean. Presumably Min told her. IMO that just strengthens my other arguments.
Arg. No. She didn't. It wasn't forshadowing. HOW would she have known that? Min, maybe. But, we've had Min POVs, with Thom, and none of them mention that, at all, even obliquely. To go with more than that makes you an acolyteof Felix, which is cool, so long as you're self-aware. ;) It was a joke with the girls that backfired.

Cadsuane is going to turn Moiraine over her knee, or try to. The oath rod won't give her any choice, given the promise she made in New Spring. (Unless that was meant metaphorically, but I doubt it, since Cadsuane had the reputation of having "assulted" at least one Amyrlin. Presumably that was a spanking.)

Again, no. That's not how the Oath works. She said it, and to her, it was true - she would have followed through. But just because she said she was going to do it, doesn't mean that she has to now. It was true at the time, and times have changed. Otherwise, the Oaths would be like Compulsion, which we know they're not.

RJ seems to be trying to teach us a lesson here with this whole thing.

Women are NOT equal to men. There's things men can do that women can't. Or things that men do better than women. There's also things that women can do that men can't. And things that women can do better than men can. They have different psychological thought processes--- differently wired brains, so to speak. They have different physical traits. This all ties in to my previous point about some being better than others at some things, whether in mental abilities or physical abilities.

Women should NOT try and be LIKE men. They're different.. so stay different. That's the beauty of it. That's what makes life interesting. The irony is that if feminists are trying to gain respect for the female sex, they're doing the opposite. They're basically getting rid of their unique and distinguishing characteristics, and trying to become like the male sex. So in a subliminal way, what they're really saying is, the male sex is better and that's why we try to conform to it. That's why we try to emulate it and be like it. I'm not a feminist like that. And I don't know about you, but I'm FOR women's rights and respect all that. And that's why in order for that to be consistent with everything, you need to realize that female and male are two different things. Anyway.
Um, whos' saying we all need to be neutered and the same? No one here that I can see. Juan, seriously, you're missing the larger issue and coming off as a misogynist hiding behing platitudes to make yourself sound better. Insisting that it's not a bad thing to hold author's accountable for the message they send is not an insistence that men and women be treated the same. Don't inflate the issue into more than it is. This sin't the war of the sexes, it's a discussion on whether a) an act is made less meaningful (if not meaningless) by taking away the consequence and substituing a lesser one, and b) a discussion on why there continues to be a trend of rescuing princesses in towers.

When I hear people saying, "oh, it's so terrible, damn that RJ and taking the strongest women characters and making them weak."

Um..... couldn't be more wrong. That's the whole point he's trying to make. Just to name the most notorious. Siuan and Moiraine. He took away what you (the reader) THOUGHT made them strong. In their case it was the One Power. But if you truly believe that, you don't get the series and have crippled these fine characters. What made them strong was their strong, willful personalities. Their cunning. Their loyalty. Their desire for good to prevail. Their intelligence. List goes on and on and on and on and on.

And on.

No. What he did was take away a huge piece of what MADE them strong - categorically, unequivically. End stop. The fact that they're brave and loyal and generally awesome is not affected by their new lack of strength but that in no way implies that they're better off. That's ludicrous. Just because what's left in the bucket is great doesn't mean that it wouldn't be better if they were still as strong.



She'll want to be brought up to speed as soon as possible. Meetings with Rand, Eggy, Siuan, Cads, and Nynaeve will all be memorable. She'll always keep the focus on the big picture.
Is it wrong of to not actually see those reunions? I have significant concerns over the meeting between Moiraine and Egwene. She's still young enough and new enough in her new, stronger position as Amyrlin to use strength of will as a tool against others, in my opinion. I'd hate for it to be a battle of wills, cause obvs Egwene would lose, and then what? There has to be a way to balance the position of Amyrlin with the humility she'll feel seeing Moiraine again - I hope she finds it without Moiraine having to be subserviant the way Suian is with her.

Truly, it would be enough to statr a chapter with her in the thick of things again.


3. What will she do to help Rand?

First off, she's a bridge between nearly all the major players. They all trust her and respect her. Mat, Perrin, and Nynaeve all fall in this category. Elayne somewhat. She's known and respected by the Borderlanders. And somewhat by the Aiel. She'll be an excellent person to bring different factions together. But Rand and Egwene hold her in high regard most of all.

She's someone he trusts, someone the AS hold in awe. Slayer of Forsaken. Hunter of Black Ajah. Rescuer of the Dragon Reborn. She's saved Rand's life. And Mat's. And Perrin's. And Egwene's. How many times each? And Aviendha's as well. She'll be critical in getting the FOM resolved and everyone on the same page. Heck, she even out-legends Cadsuane. Most of all, she will ensure there is no LTT/Latra Posae Decume split this time.
Both excellent points. The bridge bewtween factions and nations and competing interests is one that has been missing since her death. No one is out for just Rand and his success. Not even Rand can do that - but Moiraine was always focused on that and only that. Hopefully she can put those skills back to good use, if she's not too busy...:rolleyes:

The piece about the split between Rand and Egwene equating to that between LTT and Latra is key. I actually am persuaded that Moiraine may be the only person that Egwene would remotely trust enough to believe that Rand's plan is a good one.


Second off, I think she may have something to help them. Other than Mat, she's the only person I know to have been through both doorways to Finnland. She's had three questions. She's had three wishes. She's paid a terrible price. She's also been through the Rings or Rhuidean. She knows something, or has something. Count on it.


Interesting thought. You mean beyond her super'angreal? The three questions, I wonder what those were. She's known the answers since FoH and has kept mum, but wishes...did she actually get those? Interesting!

Tree Brother
07-28-2011, 02:34 PM
Arg. No. She didn't. It wasn't forshadowing. HOW would she have known that? Min, maybe.

Hmm. I may be misreading your reply. If so, forgive me.

After googling for a reference:

Moiraine says she knows the face of the man she will marry better than El/Eg/Ny know their future husbands [TSR: 6, Doorways, 90-1].

And Moiraine is very confident that Thom is alive, when the others think he died in Whitebridge. Taken with the near certainty that Min told all her visions to Moiraine, I think it safe to say that Min told Morianne that she would marry Thom, which gives her hope of rescue (unless the pattern breaks down so much that Min's visions do not come true). (We can be pretty sure she had this vision, because this is the most likely vision she could have had that she worries "cannot come true").

Weiramon
07-28-2011, 04:48 PM
Burn my eyes, I could wager that claim from that Search fellow isn't quite accurate. Truly I could.

Why, the words you think you hear from an Aes Sedai may not be what they said.

Zombie Sammael
07-28-2011, 05:30 PM
Okay. Okay, I'll bite. I'm in a terrible mood right now so don't expect this to be overly pleasant, although I'll try not to make it overly bile-filled either.

There's few things that bother me as much as feminists complaining about how they/other women are not equal or treated/seen as equal to men.

RJ seems to be trying to teach us a lesson here with this whole thing.

Women are NOT equal to men. There's things men can do that women can't. Or things that men do better than women. There's also things that women can do that men can't. And things that women can do better than men can. They have different psychological thought processes--- differently wired brains, so to speak. They have different physical traits. This all ties in to my previous point about some being better than others at some things, whether in mental abilities or physical abilities.

You are taking "equal" as meaning "the same as". All that's asked for by the vast majority of feminists is equal opportunities; the same chance of a career, of prospects of power. The point you're making actually seems to be opposite to the point RJ makes in the Wheel of Time by placing the women in a position of power; the females of Randland are just as capable, clever and resourceful as their male counterparts. The main thing women can do in the first part of the series that men cannot (because it is socially unacceptable for them, because of the madness and death) is channel; this makes them more powerful than men.

You also make the point, which has been disproved time and time again, not least by the success and achievement despite adversity of women, that men and women are somehow different in their brains. There is scant evidence for this. There is some evidence that the sexes are better adapted to certain tasks, but this has little actual application in modern society. Additionally, it's also often impossible to tell which of these so-called brain differences are real and which are socially created. For example, you might say women are more emotional than men, but this is literally only because Western society permits a wider range of emotional expression to women than men, and has nothing to do with the power structure of that society; in Japan, women are permitted less range of emotional expression but the society still largely contains a gender bias in the favour of males.

Long story short, unless you really need someone to pee standing up, breastfeed, or do some heavy lifting, those gender differences you're talking about don't really have much application to modern society.

Women should NOT try and be LIKE men. They're different.. so stay different. That's the beauty of it. That's what makes life interesting. The irony is that if feminists are trying to gain respect for the female sex, they're doing the opposite. They're basically getting rid of their unique and distinguishing characteristics, and trying to become like the male sex. So in a subliminal way, what they're really saying is, the male sex is better and that's why we try to conform to it. That's why we try to emulate it and be like it. I'm not a feminist like that. And I don't know about you, but I'm FOR women's rights and respect all that. And that's why in order for that to be consistent with everything, you need to realize that female and male are two different things. Anyway

Most feminists do not want women to become more like men, or lose the defining characteristics of their sex. What they want to see are examples of discrimination based solely on gender, which the person being discriminate against cannot control, removed. They want to have an equal opportunity to live their lives the way they want to, rather than being arbitrarily assigned a role based on their gender rather than their actual aptitude for a task. While it's true that many women might make happy home-makers and find that's the role they're suited to, an equal or greater number might wish to make their own way in the world. They're presently prevented from doing that to a certain extent by the fact that we still discriminate based upon gender and assign specified roles to women and to men. Ironically, the removal of these expectations would benefit men, as well, by making it acceptable for men with a desire to function as home-makers or in other traditionally female-oriented roles to take them on without fear of reprisal.

I don't know whether you're misinterpreting the term "feminist" to mean certain stereotypes relating to that word or not, but I would say that if you're for women's rights as you claim to be that makes you a feminist yourself. Sadly, you appear to have an alarmingly gender-essentialist viewpoint. Male and female are in fact part of a spectrum; everyone alive falls somewhere in that spectrum. Sadly we tend to discriminate against those that fall somewhere in the middle. One of the failings of RJ's work is that he includes only one transgender character, she's evil, and in any case she's not a real woman. But in real life people aren't just male or female, they will have characteristics of both. Despite the overwhelming and alarming positive use of the phrase, no-one is really all-man or all-woman.

When I hear people saying, "oh, it's so terrible, damn that RJ and taking the strongest women characters and making them weak."

Um..... couldn't be more wrong. That's the whole point he's trying to make. Just to name the most notorious. Siuan and Moiraine. He took away what you (the reader) THOUGHT made them strong. In their case it was the One Power. But if you truly believe that, you don't get the series and have crippled these fine characters. What made them strong was their strong, willful personalities. Their cunning. Their loyalty. Their desire for good to prevail. Their intelligence. List goes on and on and on and on and on.

So for RJ to take away the thing that provided them with power and status and to reduce them down to the level of consorts for their male companions, who continue to be adventurous and skillful without having to make any sacrifice of their own to be in the relationship, is simply Moiraine and Siuan accepting what should be their natural place as women? I think I explained above that there is no such thing among humans as a natural place based on gender; only based on the individual personality. Moiraine's and Siuan's personalities before were as high-powered goal-oriented individuals. Now, that would appear to have been taken away from them in order to place them in a relationship with a male character - despite hints as to the nature of the relationship between, in fact, the two of them earlier in the series. That's why a large number of fans find it unacceptable.

And on.

I would say that a true test of how strong a character is is when you take away all their advantages. You put them down in the dirt. And you can see how they start fresh. How when they fall. They get up. How when penniless, they make a fortune. Or whatever analogy/metaphor you'd like to think of.

And that's exactly what happened to characters such as Siuan and Moiraine. Siuan is stronger than ever before. Remember? She used to get her respect by bullying people around. She was Amyrlin Seat. She was one of the strongest in the Power.. Yeah, it's like might makes right. The big bully in the playground. Now.. she's much better. More down-to-Earth. More real. She's learned to hold her tongue. She's learned to be submissive when need be. A true test of strength is not how strong physically you are or whatever. How humble are you when you have all this authority and power. Or how you gain respect when people see you as weak. What is that one Aes Sedai that Egwene talked to that was weak but wise. And Egwene mentioned to her how the whole system of going by strength is flawed? Yeah... point made. It couldn't be more clear...

Siuan is not more powerful or successful now than she was before. She was previously the most powerful woman in the world. Now she is the occasionally unwilling tutor of a stubborn pupil who has taken over her old position and is performing better in the role than she ever did. All she has gained is a romantic involvement with a male character - she has lost everything else. I don't see any evidence of her gaining respect by being seen as weak or anything like that. Most AS seem to pity her and Leane as much now as they did when they were stilled.

Back to Moiraine. Same here. Obviously she just got back. We've yet to see her pick herself up from the ground. But I'm sure she'll deliver and show us how strong she is. Doesn't need to be incredibly strong in the power. Her knowledge is her strength as is her wisdom-- along with all of her other virtues.

You're right, we haven't seen what Moiraine will do now, but given the situation with Siuan and her power reduction, the nature of her rescue by an all-male team, and her recently professed love for Thom, I can sadly see her story going in the same direction - when what she really ought to be doing in AMOL is kicking ass and taking names. And the first two asses she ought to kick should be named "Rand" and "Egwene", with the wisdom and skill people so often praise in her. Sadly, the AS will know her power has reduced even with her angreal, and I can see her losing as much position as Siuan.

Sometimes when you fall down so hard, you can't get up by yourself. You need a hand to get up. You can't always pick yourself up. The harder the fall, the more help you'll need. Siuan needed help in the form of Gareth Bryne to show her virtues of humility etc that she had trouble learning on her own. Someone to encourage her and give her moral support, which is something no one else was giving her and yet something she needed.

Same with Moiraine. She couldn't escape the ToG by herself; she needed help. And now that she's out she'll continue needing help. No one is so perfect they don't need help or rescuing every now and then.

Doesn't matter what you say; this is still women needing help from men to do whatever it is they want to do, when earlier in the series they'd been shown to be more than capable of doing it on their own - or at very least being the dominant rather than submissive force in their relationships i.e. with their warders. Now they both apparently require men to "pick them up" even though they previously could have done it themselves.

I'd actually argue that if these two characters, and others in similar situations as these, were able to continually get out of trouble by themselves, it would make them superhuman. And for that I'll watch Superman. For all the fictional elements, I like the realism in WOT. And that comes in ALL areas, whether it's because you're favorite characters need help cause they've fallen down hard or whatever. We often have to take a hard beating to be open up and be willing or even be able to learn. You gotta knead the bread first. You gotta melt the metal before you can shape it. Or whatever other analogy you'd like to use.

Rand is normally able to get himself out of whatever trouble he's in by himself. Even at Dumai's Wells, he broke the shield and escaped by himself - all the others did was provide a distraction which would have come from the Shaido anyway. Yet no-one accuses Rand of being unrealistically superhuman prior to the end of TGS. This is an example of the double standard applied to male and female characters; it's okay for Rand to escape the box on his own but for Moiraine to get out of the TOG would have been unrealistic.

For me because of all this. Characters like Siuan and Moiraine (yet to be seen in her case), are among the most realistic and relatable characters in the series. Characters have flaws, they aren't perfect. They can't do everything by themselves. These characters are some of RJ's best work for that reason.

There's word missing from that sentence: female characters can't do everything by themselves. Rand, Mat, Perrin, Lan, never seem to need help from women to achieve their goals.

I'm exhausted and I'm going to bed now. Goodnight.

I think that's the first thing you've said all post that I agree with.

The Unreasoner
07-28-2011, 08:18 PM
I'm in a terrible mood right now so don't expect this to be overly pleasant
YESSS!!! (not the bad mood, the less than pleasant. Way to go buddy!) I take it your re-read is over?
what she really ought to be doing in AMOL is kicking ass and taking names. And the first two asses she ought to kick should be named "Rand" and "Egwene"
You're on a roll. Don't stop there though. Let's throw Lelaine on that list, Alviarin, uhhh that jackass from the progressive commercials...Arganda, Galgan, and Bryne for good measure.

jana
07-28-2011, 10:29 PM
I can see her losing as much position as Siuan.

lmao


you people am strange.

Zombie Sammael
07-29-2011, 03:24 AM
YESSS!!! (not the bad mood, the less than pleasant. Way to go buddy!) I take it your re-read is over?

What? I'm capable of being rude, big nose.

The Unreasoner
07-29-2011, 04:10 AM
Whoa, there you go again!
But my post was in reference to:
I'm only being polite and reasonable at the moment...Once I'm done rereading there'll be brains everywhere
Looking forward to meeting the 'real' you.
(I found Juan's post lacking too, and full of platitudes, if that will save me)

Zombie Sammael
07-29-2011, 04:22 AM
Whoa, there you go again!
But my post was in reference to:

Looking forward to meeting the 'real' you.
(I found Juan's post lacking too, and full of platitudes, if that will save me)

As I go through, I'm likely to get more sure of my assertions and make them outright, rather than asking questions, and in the eyes of some people that will make me seem less polite I think. I started ACOS the other day so I'm past the halfway mark (pre-AMOL halfway).

GonzoTheGreat
07-29-2011, 04:23 AM
I want to very clear. I feel that Moiraine's actions that day on the pier, her sacrifice of her own life to ensure that Rand could proceed with his destiny was one of the singlemost brave things that has ever been done in the series so far - right up there with Ingtar and Mat with his eye. I have *never* thought she was weak.

I *do* think that Team Jordan did her character a great disservice by not allowing her to stay dead - to make that sacrifice mean something. I feel that they made it less significant by bringing her back. I also feel that the method and the means by which they brought her back, and the way in which they had her character behave, and what they did to her (i.e. weakening her to ensure she came to "accept" her other strengths) was also a great disservice, and I call bullshit. I will continue to call bullshit until they can show me that bringing her back was a positive thing to do, and I sincerely hope they manage to do that. SHE is not weak, but it's not for lack of trying on their parts!For an AS (a channeler in general), losing the ability to channel is a fate worse than death.

Just look at how condescendingly Siuan is now treated by other AS, and you'll see that taking this risk deliberately was braver than simply fighting to the death as Ingtar did.

Yes, for the first couple of months Moiraine may have a hero status amongst the AS. After that will come centuries of being considered something of a halfwit.

the_collective
07-29-2011, 12:24 PM
Yes, for the first couple of months Moiraine may have a hero status amongst the AS. After that will come centuries of being considered something of a halfwit.

Am I the only one that thinks that the Aes Sedai will react wholly negatively to seeing Moiraine again? What accomplishment exactly is she so renowned for amongst the Aes Sedai that it merits "hero status"?

How could any one of Moiraine's contemporaries in the White Tower know the specifics of the things that Moiraine Damodred has done for the world? How could any of them know with any degree of certainty that Moiraine has defeated Forsaken, or that she humbled herself for the Dragon after failing to lead him around by whim and manipulation, or that she managed to visit the Eye of the World twice (impossible!), etc. etc.?

While it's true that Moiraine did a number of amazing and heroic things, the only Tower-trained person I can think of that might know about some of these things is Egwene (as I recall, she was locked up in the Stone when she nixed Be'lal, and she was incapacitated along with Aviendha during the Lanfear scene near the twisted doorway ter'angreal); not even Siuan has ever had a full grasp on what Moiraine was up to (and it didn't help that what messages Moiraine had sent were intercepted regularly).

It seems to me that the average Aes Sedai sees Moiraine as a likely accomplice in the whole fiasco that got Siuan Sanche deposed in the first place. They would know that she had accompanied the Dragon Reborn for a time, but that she was unsuccessful in bringing him to heel and negligent in keeping him a secret from her Sisters.

Am I missing something profound that makes you think she'll be received with open arms?

jana
07-29-2011, 02:12 PM
Am I missing something profound that makes you think she'll be received with open arms?

I don't have quotes, but it's implied she has legendary status among the Aes Sedai. As early as Crown of Swords Nisao mentions that Nicola wants to be another Moiraine, and she doesn't question why Nicola would hero-worship her. Egwene and Nynaeve have likely told people that Moiraine died killing Lanfear (and also killed Be'lal), and the Aes Sedai seem to have accepted it.

David Selig
07-29-2011, 03:47 PM
Given that the White Tower turned out to be filled with Black sisters, I'd say even the most conservative Aes Sedai should admit that Moiraine did the right thing when she didn't take Rand there and kept the fact that he was the Dragon secret from all but Siuan for a long time (OK, I am probably overestimatying them, but at least most of them should think so). Egwene and Nynaeve have told the other Aes Sedai that Moiraine has defeated two Forsaken. Those who still don't believe can just ask Moiraine when she comes back if they dare - she's bound to the Oaths and a simple "Yes, I defeated two Forsaken" would be enough.

Ishara
07-29-2011, 05:09 PM
Yes, for the first couple of months Moiraine may have a hero status amongst the AS. After that will come centuries of being considered something of a halfwit.

Exactly.

As for who would tell people how great she was before she died? Rand. I can see him shutting Cadsuane down by asking how many Forsaken she's killed. LOL

Not to mention, but being a legend with AS is not exactly a positive thing - they seem to hate their legends, Cadsuane being an excellent example. Loads of people admit she's legendary, but almost none equate that with being great.

jana
07-29-2011, 05:18 PM
Exactly.

As for who would tell people how great she was before she died? Rand. I can see him shutting Cadsuane down by asking how many Forsaken she's killed. LOL

Not to mention, but being a legend with AS is not exactly a positive thing - they seem to hate their legends, Cadsuane being an excellent example. Loads of people admit she's legendary, but almost none equate that with being great.

Great enough that she scares the crap out of them.

Moiraine's not going to be spending anymore time around Aes Sedai than she did before her disappearance, and it's been obvious throughout the books that the way people view strength of power is going to change. We just aren't going to read about it.

Marie Curie 7
07-29-2011, 05:31 PM
I don't have quotes, but it's implied she has legendary status among the Aes Sedai. As early as Crown of Swords Nisao mentions that Nicola wants to be another Moiraine, and she doesn't question why Nicola would hero-worship her. Egwene and Nynaeve have likely told people that Moiraine died killing Lanfear (and also killed Be'lal), and the Aes Sedai seem to have accepted it.

Yeah, Moiraine's feats were clearly well known among the rebels in Salidar. Here's one example:

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

That made Nynaeve wince. Moiraine was the Aes Sedai who had brought her and Rand out of the Two Rivers and changed their lives. Her and Rand and Egwene and Mat and Perrin. She had wanted for so long to make Moiraine pay for what she had done to them that losing her was like losing a piece of herself. But Moiraine was dead in Cairhien, taking Lanfear with her; she was fast becoming a legend among the Aes Sedai here, the only Aes Sedai to have killed one of the Forsaken, much less two. The only good thing Nynaeve could find in it, much as it shamed to find any good, was that now Lan was freed from being Moiraine’s Warder. If she could ever find him.

And now that the Tower has been reunited, no doubt the legend of Moiraine has spread to the Tower loyalists, too.

sleepinghour
07-29-2011, 06:57 PM
Yes, for the first couple of months Moiraine may have a hero status amongst the AS. After that will come centuries of being considered something of a halfwit.

She might lose status in some people's eyes, but it won't matter that much if she isn't planning on living in the Tower.

My guess is that Moiraine will become Elayne's AS advisor in Cairhien. That will give her freedom to travel the world with Thom, while still making good use of her and Thom's skill at Daes Dae'mar. Thom will probably also want to stay close to Elayne and keep the Cairhienin nobles off her back.

GonzoTheGreat
07-30-2011, 03:33 AM
How about this:
"The arrest warrant for Moiraine, it is still in force," Beonin said, shaking her head as the sheet in her hand suddenly turned to a fat sheaf. "She does not yet know Moiraine is dead." Grimacing at the pages, she let them fall; they scattered like leaves, and melted into air before settling. "Elaida still means to build herself a palace, too."Did Egwene ever think of rescinding that arrest warrant?

The official line is that Elaida was indeed an Amyrlin, so the warrant was legitimate. Which means, AS being the sticklers for the letter of the law they are, that when Moiraine shows up, she'll be arrested first before any attempt is made to sort it out. Unless Egwene has cancelled this order, and told all AS about that.

Enigma
07-30-2011, 11:31 AM
The official line is that Elaida was indeed an Amyrlin, so the warrant was legitimate. Which means, AS being the sticklers for the letter of the law they are, that when Moiraine shows up, she'll be arrested first before any attempt is made to sort it out. Unless Egwene has cancelled this order, and told all AS about that.

Unless she happens to be in the party of the Dragon Reborn. Not pissing him off probably takes priority over a warrent issued by a former Amyrlin - sort of like 'we won't move against the so called Black Tower until we have the Dragon Reborn in hand'. That gives plenty of time for Egwene to revoke the warrent.

GonzoTheGreat
07-30-2011, 03:45 PM
Unless she happens to be in the party of the Dragon Reborn. Not pissing him off probably takes priority over a warrent issued by a former Amyrlin - sort of like 'we won't move against the so called Black Tower until we have the Dragon Reborn in hand'. That gives plenty of time for Egwene to revoke the warrent.Oh, yes, you are right, it is indeed quite possible that suddenly the AS will become sensible. Foolish of me not to have thought of that, I admit. :p

Nygma
07-30-2011, 04:48 PM
I'm a little mind-boggled by the hatred engendered by the idea that a woman playing a dangerous game might occasionally need rescuing. And also by the "Rand never needs any help getting out of sticky situations" assertion.

Not sure some people are reading the same series I did.

I seem to recall:


Moraine saving Rand from Be'lal.
Moraine saving Rand from Lanfear.
Mesanna saving Rand from Trollocs, for crying out loud.
Nynaeve saving Rand from Rahvin.
Cadsuane saving Rand from Far Madding.
Aviendha saving Rand from a drakhar.
Several people, led by Cadsuane, saving Rand from Fain's knife wound.
A few armies saving Rand from Aes Sedai kidnappers.


I'm probably missing a half-dozen other rescues our self-reliant hero needed. "OMG, can you beLIEVE RJ stooped to the Rescue the Princess cliche? Sooooo lame!"

Same thing with losing strength. Our hero has lost his sight, lost his hand, and his vaunted ability to channel. He's vomited and fallen flat on his face numerous times in front of a lot of people he couldn't afford to show weakness towards.

Yeah, waving your hand and causing mountains to fall is cool and all. But between having that or strength of will and character which would you rather be without?

Every hero in this series has needed saving a time or two. From EotW to ToM, I think Moiraine has needed saving once from a situation she walked into with full knowledge of the consequences and a cool calculation that it was worth the cost. (Said cost including uncertainty of rescue, possible eternal torment or death, loss of defining ability to channel, a great deal of pain, and having to rely on freaking Mat Cauthon.)

I'm kind of sorry people feel less of her for that.

jana
07-30-2011, 05:39 PM
(Said cost including uncertainty of rescue, possible eternal torment or death, loss of defining ability to channel, a great deal of pain, and having to rely on freaking Mat Cauthon.)

This made me laugh. She was probably thinking "He'll never let me hear the end of it. Maybe I should just let Rand die."

Zombie Sammael
07-30-2011, 06:09 PM
I'm a little mind-boggled by the hatred engendered by the idea that a woman playing a dangerous game might occasionally need rescuing. And also by the "Rand never needs any help getting out of sticky situations" assertion.

Not sure some people are reading the same series I did.

I seem to recall:


Moraine saving Rand from Be'lal.
Moraine saving Rand from Lanfear.
Mesanna saving Rand from Trollocs, for crying out loud.
Nynaeve saving Rand from Rahvin.
Cadsuane saving Rand from Far Madding.
Aviendha saving Rand from a drakhar.
Several people, led by Cadsuane, saving Rand from Fain's knife wound.
A few armies saving Rand from Aes Sedai kidnappers.


I'm probably missing a half-dozen other rescues our self-reliant hero needed. "OMG, can you beLIEVE RJ stooped to the Rescue the Princess cliche? Sooooo lame!"

Same thing with losing strength. Our hero has lost his sight, lost his hand, and his vaunted ability to channel. He's vomited and fallen flat on his face numerous times in front of a lot of people he couldn't afford to show weakness towards.

Yeah, waving your hand and causing mountains to fall is cool and all. But between having that or strength of will and character which would you rather be without?

Every hero in this series has needed saving a time or two. From EotW to ToM, I think Moiraine has needed saving once from a situation she walked into with full knowledge of the consequences and a cool calculation that it was worth the cost. (Said cost including uncertainty of rescue, possible eternal torment or death, loss of defining ability to channel, a great deal of pain, and having to rely on freaking Mat Cauthon.)

I'm kind of sorry people feel less of her for that.

None of the examples you cited are quite the same thing. Although Rand has several times been in danger and been assisted while in that situation by someone else, he has never been in the position Moiraine was placed in; that of needing someone else to come rescue him. Even at Dumai's Wells, all it took was a distraction - which the Aes Sedai's behaviour had already made inevitable - for him to in fact free himself. In most of the situations you cited, particularly those involving fights with Forsaken and various monsters, although it's true to say he was assisted by others, his defeat was not inevitable without them. Plus, Rand has the advantage of being ta'veren, which it's fair to point out no female character in the series does; one interpretation being that while men in danger can rely on a random happenstance to save them, women in danger are far more vulnerable.

Indeed, all of the situations in which Rand has become vulnerable or shown weakness in front of those he ought not to have actually served to increase his power rather than reduce it, either by the madness increasing the level to which he is feared, or the physical illness inducing others to care for him because he's so Light-blinded important.

No-one is saying they think less of Moiraine as a character as a result of the situation she found herself in. Those of us who are a little disappointed with the way some of the female characters are being treated are saying that the rescue diminishes the level to which she is a kick-ass, independent female, the rarity of which in fiction is staggering. I want nothing more than for AMOL to involve all the characters, including Rand and Moiraine, to seriously kick ass. Instead, however, Moiraine has been set up for a slightly saccharine, somewhat unexpected, happily ever after with Thom. One can only hope for a second last minute heroic sacrifice.

Nygma
07-30-2011, 07:34 PM
Dang, ZS, you've got to be kidding.

"All it took was a distraction"? Like tens of thousands of soldiers, an army of wolves, and a hundred channelers? Yeah, and all the wonder girls needed in the Stone was for Mat to open the door for them, while all Mat needed in Rhuidean was someone to cut him down and administer CPR.

You really jumped the shark with this one, though:


Indeed, all of the situations in which Rand has become vulnerable or shown weakness in front of those he ought not to have actually served to increase his power rather than reduce it, either by the madness increasing the level to which he is feared, or the physical illness inducing others to care for him because he's so Light-blinded important.
Try telling someone annoyed with female role models in, say, The Legend of Zelda that, no really, Zelda is a HUGE role model, because while sitting in a tower waiting to be rescued might LOOK weak, it's really not, because it induces others to care for her because she's so Light-blinded important. Reeeeaaaally stretching here, man.

Those of us who are a little disappointed with the way some of the female characters are being treated are saying that the rescue diminishes the level to which she is a kick-ass, independent female, the rarity of which in fiction is staggering.
I think the problem is people are interpreting "strong" to mean "invulnerable". There's a term for fiction that boasts heroes or heroines that never ever lose in love, life, battle, or cards - "Bad." People who don't fail have never attempted anything beyond them. Or they're omnipotent. In which case they fall into either the "loser" or "god" category. Not "strong".

Face it. Rand wasn't getting out of Far Madding - he was going to get sold to the highest bidder. Rahvin had him beat until Nynaeve came to his rescue. Elaida scored big time when she plucked him right out of his seat of power.

Or compare how badass Rand was when he faced the "Daughter of the Nine Moons". As I remember it went something like this: Rand realizes it's a trap; goes for the Source and fails; futilely tries to block a fireball with his spear; gets his hand blown off and goes blind; momentarily blacks out; wakes up face down in the dirt, spitting leaves, with his girlfriend shielding him with her body; staggers to his feet only to find everyone else has everything under control.

Compare that moment of awesome with this misogynist BS from Team Jordan: Egwene, drugged and a prisoner, nevertheless rallies a bunch of terrified students; saves the head of the Battle Ajah, tells her to shut it and get in line; grabs a sa'angreal and pretty much single-handedly smashes the attacking Seanchan. Oh, and does it photogenically, posing with wind blowing through her hair and blasting fire and lightning all over the place.

Your argument that it's all "more of the same chauvinism" apparently relies on either 1) no females have cool moments of awesome like the guys or 2) none of the bad stuff that happens to females happens to guys too. Both are patently absurd.

No females in positions of power? Tuon, the Empress, Aes Sedai, Elayne, Morgase, Tylin, Wise Ones, Mistress of the Ships, Tenobia, Ethenielle, Berelain, ... actually, at LEAST half the rulers seem to be women. By no standard does WoT warrant ranting about strong female roles. It's pure nitpicking.

...Wait, you have a point about ta'veren. Three ta'veren and not one of them a woman. BOGUS.

GonzoTheGreat
07-31-2011, 04:07 AM
None of the examples you cited are quite the same thing. Although Rand has several times been in danger and been assisted while in that situation by someone else, he has never been in the position Moiraine was placed in; that of needing someone else to come rescue him.That is because he very deliberately left out the Far Madding one. And a bunch from TEOTW. And Moridin preventing Rand from falling to his death in Shadar Logoth. And Perrin coming to help Rand on Dragonmount without Rand even knowing Perrin had been there.

I might almost start to think that Nygma deliberately left out the good ones. :p

Zombie Sammael
07-31-2011, 04:22 AM
Dang, ZS, you've got to be kidding.

"All it took was a distraction"? Like tens of thousands of soldiers, an army of wolves, and a hundred channelers? Yeah, and all the wonder girls needed in the Stone was for Mat to open the door for them, while all Mat needed in Rhuidean was someone to cut him down and administer CPR.

My point wasn't so much about the distraction as it was the futility of the situations by comparison. Moiraine's situation was utterly futile; the Finn would never ever have let her go on their own, either through carelessness or intent, and even if they did she would still have been trapped. Rand at Dumai's Wells would have had the distraction of the Shaido whether or not his friends turned up ultimately.

Whilst we were discussing Moiraine and her position in comparison to Rand, not the supergirls or Mat, I should point out that in the Stone Egwene had already managed to sever their captors in Tel'aran'rhiod - whatever Mat did Egwene's actions were to a degree not permitted to Moiraine self-sufficient.

Mat in Rhuidean is similar on the other end; his actions were as a result of his own foolishness, while Moiraine's were a result of self-sacrifice. You might construct an argument from this that the Finn are extremely dangerous - that would be far more interesting than the point you seem to be trying to make, actually, because the situation with Moiraine and Mat is a worthy and interesting parallel. People do seem to be in dire need of rescuing when they put a foot wrong with the Finns. However:

You really jumped the shark with this one, though:


Try telling someone annoyed with female role models in, say, The Legend of Zelda that, no really, Zelda is a HUGE role model, because while sitting in a tower waiting to be rescued might LOOK weak, it's really not, because it induces others to care for her because she's so Light-blinded important. Reeeeaaaally stretching here, man.

The most popular Legend of Zelda game is Ocarina of Time. In that game, Zelda spends most of the story in disguise helping Link out and being a badass. People who criticise the Zelda series for its presentation of women, or accuse it of reducing women to princesses in towers, are ignoring the evidence of pretty much every game in the 3d series: Sheik, Tetra and Midna are all active participants in the story.

I think the problem is people are interpreting "strong" to mean "invulnerable". There's a term for fiction that boasts heroes or heroines that never ever lose in love, life, battle, or cards - "Bad." People who don't fail have never attempted anything beyond them. Or they're omnipotent. In which case they fall into either the "loser" or "god" category. Not "strong".

Not at all. The WOT series is full of other strong female characters that are very enjoyable. I personally feel let down by the fact that Moiraine starts the series as a strong, independent, powerful, wise female, appears to end it as a weak, powerless, tired character in need of rescuing by male characters. This does not make Egwene, Elayne, Cadusane, the Wise Ones, Faile or Birgitte suddenly and spontaneously disappear.

Face it. Rand wasn't getting out of Far Madding - he was going to get sold to the highest bidder. Rahvin had him beat until Nynaeve came to his rescue. Elaida scored big time when she plucked him right out of his seat of power.

Or compare how badass Rand was when he faced the "Daughter of the Nine Moons". As I remember it went something like this: Rand realizes it's a trap; goes for the Source and fails; futilely tries to block a fireball with his spear; gets his hand blown off and goes blind; momentarily blacks out; wakes up face down in the dirt, spitting leaves, with his girlfriend shielding him with her body; staggers to his feet only to find everyone else has everything under control.

None of which are the same as the situation in which Moiraine found herself, which was a state of utter defeat.

Compare that moment of awesome with this misogynist BS from Team Jordan: Egwene, drugged and a prisoner, nevertheless rallies a bunch of terrified students; saves the head of the Battle Ajah, tells her to shut it and get in line; grabs a sa'angreal and pretty much single-handedly smashes the attacking Seanchan. Oh, and does it photogenically, posing with wind blowing through her hair and blasting fire and lightning all over the place.

Your argument that it's all "more of the same chauvinism" apparently relies on either 1) no females have cool moments of awesome like the guys or 2) none of the bad stuff that happens to females happens to guys too. Both are patently absurd.

No females in positions of power? Tuon, the Empress, Aes Sedai, Elayne, Morgase, Tylin, Wise Ones, Mistress of the Ships, Tenobia, Ethenielle, Berelain, ... actually, at LEAST half the rulers seem to be women. By no standard does WoT warrant ranting about strong female roles. It's pure nitpicking.

...Wait, you have a point about ta'veren. Three ta'veren and not one of them a woman. BOGUS.

I did not say that the treatment of female characters in general within the series was mysogynistic, nor did I accuse Team Jordan of general chauvinism. There is a difference in the way female characters are treated in the series and I think that is an interesting topic for discussion. However, we were discussing Moiraine, not Egwene. There are specific instances of Moiraine being diminished as a character as a result of the Tower of Ghenjei situation, and I find that disappointing as it seems she's been reduced from strong and independent to weak and in need of rescuing.

I will thank you to not intentionally misquote me in future. I did not at any point say the Wheel of Time series contained "more of the same chauvinism" nor did I say anything which is neatly summarised by that misquote, yet you have put it into quotation marks to make it appear that I did say it. I did not. I would not. It is rude and offensive of you to suggest that I did say something which, even though you might infer it from a poor reading of my posts, I certainly did not. To say such a thing would be utterly incorrect and disrespectful of a series which does go out of its way to place women in positions of power and examine their behaviour in those positions, and I would not say such a thing. The fact that I think it occasionally fails to do this well does not diminish the situations where it succeeds.

I will be happy to continue this discussion with you should your next post be or contain an apology for misquoting and misattributing me. Otherwise, I think we are done.

Ishara
07-31-2011, 10:35 AM
My guess is that Moiraine will become Elayne's AS advisor in Cairhien. That will give her freedom to travel the world with Thom, while still making good use of her and Thom's skill at Daes Dae'mar. Thom will probably also want to stay close to Elayne and keep the Cairhienin nobles off her back.
I like it. I am not a fan of the idea that she eventually becomes Queen of Cairhien, with Thom as her consort and adviser. In fact, I sort of hate it. This appeals to me, however!

I'm kind of sorry people feel less of her for that. I realize you're new here, so this isn't a given: do you know how to read? Cause if you did, you wouldn't be making such sweeping generalizations about this thread or the comments in in unless you were deliberately missing the point in order to incite argument, which is trollish to say the least.

David Selig
07-31-2011, 11:19 AM
Just compare the number of times the main male and the female characters got captured during the series. The women have a huge lead. Jordan overused the "woman gets captured to move the plot along" trick to a ridiculous degree and the clear implication is that according to him women are much worse at taking care of themselves on their own than men. I am not saying the women should've been able to do everything on their own and gotten away from all the dangers they entered, but the discrepancy between how often Mat and Perrin needed help to get free compared to the Supergirls is striking. Then there is the big number of secondary female characters who had to get saved by Mat or other men while there are few, if any, cases, of secondary male characters getting saved by women.

The Unreasoner
07-31-2011, 06:02 PM
Just compare the number of times the main male and the female characters got captured during the series. The women have a huge lead.

Perhaps, as a wise man once hypothesized, it is necessary to be kidnapped to waken latent political instincts. This may be the root cause of the greater portion of effective politicians being female.

In all seriousness...
I don't think RJ meant anything by it. Perhaps he got a little lazy with the variety of plot devices, but I think pushing this line will be fruitless.

I am interested by the idea that Cadsuane will spank her though. Do the Oaths work like that? I seem to remember alanna making threats but she intentionally left a loophole and didn't bother counting all the way to five. What was the exact threat?

jana
07-31-2011, 06:49 PM
What was the exact threat?

I don't have the quote, but she said she'd spank her if she wasn't still there in the morning. She didn't say when she would spank her, so she never has to.

Juan
08-01-2011, 12:56 AM
Did a quick scan. And I loled at the inconsistent premises that zombie uses on his arguments. Not gonna bother with a long response because I'm not sure you'll get it.... But maybe this will help. If not, I don't really care.

How about Rand, the MAIN character, who would fail (as in "utter defeat") and the entire world with him, if it wasn't for the help of a bunch of women helping him how to laugh and cry all that? Which they succeeded in. That's the biggest rescue of all. Much bigger and more important than Moiraine's. Yep, RJ definitely only had women rescued. Only women need it. Never the men. Especially not the most important character. Come on give me a break. Grow up and stop bitching about something that you don't have reason to bitch about. See, if only women were rescued in the books, then ok, I'd understand your position. But that's clearly not the case, so your position is baseless. So let's not waste time and go in circles. End of this discussion.

The Unreasoner
08-01-2011, 01:21 AM
Did a quick scan. And I loled at the inconsistent premises that zombie uses on his arguments. Not gonna bother with a long response because I'm not sure you'll get it.... But maybe this will help. If not, I don't really care.

How about Rand, the MAIN character, who would fail (as in "utter defeat") and the entire world with him, if it wasn't for the help of a bunch of women helping him how to laugh and cry all that? Which they succeeded in. That's the biggest rescue of all. Much bigger and more important than Moiraine's. Yep, RJ definitely only had women rescued. Only women need it. Never the men. Especially not the most important character. Come on give me a break. Grow up and stop bitching about something that you don't have reason to bitch about.

If you want intelligent responses, you may consider an alternative line than straight up obnoxiousness.

These complaints are generally regarding the style of the writing-not the substance. There are instances of Rand (and other males) needing aid, but rarely do they command the same thematic weight associated with comparable situations with female characters in danger.

And in Moiraine's case specifically, a significant portion of who she is was strongly associated with her strength in the Power. However illogical or unjust such a system of hierarchy may be, the fact that it exists (and is strongly ingrained in the minds of the Aes Sedai) is without question. To take a page from your book of logic in non-wot (and present a ridiculous situation as if it proves my point), a person may reject worldly pleasures and pursuits, becoming a philosopher akin to Christ or Gandhi, and appear as a hobo. His worldly respect would be minimal. And from within this world, whatever awaits him later, he is a failure. Just as whatever thougts RJ had on the issue of gender dynamics, the fact remains that within the scope of the books, women are consistently treated as less.

Unless you'd like to take all of the hobo-philosophers into your home?

Zombie Sammael
08-01-2011, 04:56 AM
Did a quick scan. And I loled at the inconsistent premises that zombie uses on his arguments. Not gonna bother with a long response because I'm not sure you'll get it.... But maybe this will help. If not, I don't really care.

How about Rand, the MAIN character, who would fail (as in "utter defeat") and the entire world with him, if it wasn't for the help of a bunch of women helping him how to laugh and cry all that? Which they succeeded in. That's the biggest rescue of all. Much bigger and more important than Moiraine's. Yep, RJ definitely only had women rescued. Only women need it. Never the men. Especially not the most important character. Come on give me a break. Grow up and stop bitching about something that you don't have reason to bitch about. See, if only women were rescued in the books, then ok, I'd understand your position. But that's clearly not the case, so your position is baseless. So let's not waste time and go in circles. End of this discussion.

I'm almost unwilling to dignify this with a response, but there's one major gaping hole in your logic: Rand rescued himself on Dragonmount. Cadsuane utterly and disastrously failed to teach him laughter and tears. In the end, even she, the ultimate power-AS, required the aid of Tam, a non-channeling male, to get even the possibility of the result she desired. And as for sorting out his head on DM? That was all Rand. Just like Dumai's Wells, Rand actually rescued himself from the peril within his mind. So your example is flawed. As for the rest, The Unreasoner said it as eloquently and as well as I could.

On a more personal note: I have said time and again that I am not dismissing the success of other female characters, I feel that the character of Moiraine has been diminished. It's frustrating that some people feel the need to twist my words to make me say something I'm not.

In addition, I always do my best to be polite and reasonable in this discussion, not least because in my experience the WOT fandom is one of the nicest places on the internet to go. However, Juan, you have just, with absolutely no provocation than polite disagreement, told me to "stop bitching" and "grow up". Using the term "bitch" in a discussion of gender politics was unwise at best, but the overall rude and insulting tone of the rest of your post simply makes me not want to speak to you. I would be perfectly happy to continue a debate with you about the subject if you could simply be polite. Instead you've chosen to be a noob.

Juan, I think it's perfectly obvious who really needs to grow up.

Juan
08-01-2011, 08:48 AM
@Unreasoner
Aww, it's so cute for you to come to your lady's rescue. See what you're doing here is labeling zombie as a damsel in distress and you are coming to his rescue. From what you and Zombie are basically arguing, he should be able to do that without you butting in to help. He can do it himself. He needs no rescuing. ;)

The Unreasoner
08-01-2011, 09:01 AM
I could be mistaken, but I believe you and Nygma are in the minority here, so it could have been for anyone. But I post because I just can't shut myself up. Although I like Zombie. Despite him being an Egwene fanboy. But I didn't do it for him. I did it for you.

You are missing my point. It doesn't matter what the real world situation is, or even what the objective and unnarrated events in the books are. Thematically, women in distress is given greater weight in the story.

Your last post didn't address anything but the existence of mine.

Zombie Sammael
08-01-2011, 09:25 AM
Your last post didn't address anything but the existence of mine.

It's because at this point, unable to process any thoughts with his tiny mind, Juan has resorted to nothing but trolling. Throwing about gender-based and homophobic "insults" in a thread where we are discussing those very subjects is just the tip of the iceberg for this miserable excuse for a human being.

Just leave it, Unreasoner. If rationality, politeness, and calm explanation can't get through to this idiot, I doubt getting into a flamewar with it will help.

The Unreasoner
08-01-2011, 10:02 AM
I don't have the quote, but she said she'd spank her if she wasn't still there in the morning. She didn't say when she would spank her, so she never has to.

Found it:
Cadsuane had been looking thoughtfully at the door that had closed behind Merean and Larelle, but she turned a piercing gaze on Moiraine. “You’ve worn the shawl five months, and you have affairs that cannot wait? Pshaaw! You still haven’t learned the first real lesson, that the shawl means you are ready to truly begin learning. The second lesson is caution. I know very well how hard that is to find when you’re young and have saidar at your fingertips and the world at your feet. As you think.” Moiraine tried to fit a word in, but she might as well have stood in front of that avalanche. “You will take great risks in your life, if you live long enough. You already take more than you know. Heed carefully what I say. And do as I say. I will check your bed tonight, and if you are not in it, I will find you and make you weep as you did for those mice. You can dry your tears afterwards on that shawl you believe makes you invincible. It does not.”
No spanking reunion then, as Moiraine was in her bed when the check was made.

Zombie Sammael
08-01-2011, 10:07 AM
Found it:

No spanking reunion then, as Moiraine was in her bed when the check was made.

Missing an opportunity for spanking. That truly is bad writing on the part of RJ.

Ishara
08-01-2011, 01:54 PM
I am interested by the idea that Cadsuane will spank her though. Do the Oaths work like that? I seem to remember alanna making threats but she intentionally left a loophole and didn't bother counting all the way to five. What was the exact threat?
Nope. The Oaths don't work that way, otherwise they'd be a lot closer to Compulsion than to promises. Essentially she can make the threat, because she believes that she will follow through with it. This example isn't the best, because we can see that she does at least check that Moiraine was in bed, but it wouldn't compel her to spank her when she next saw her, 25 years later.

Enigma
08-02-2011, 07:42 AM
The oaths do not have to be literal and a lot is in what the speaker intended. I thought that a certain amount of exaduration is allowed.