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Paraprosdokian
07-25-2011, 07:15 AM
Here's my question for you - when does Fain sidestep the Pattern?

He can't have sidestepped the Pattern as soon as he was infected by Mordeth, because as late as Book IV, his presence in the Two Rivers drew both Slayer and Perrin to the Two Rivers. The symbolism of the wolf-Slayer v the Wolf King Perrin and the Lord of the Two Rivers business seems so fundamental that it has to be part of the original Pattern - it can't simply be a matter of the Pattern adapting to the existence of Fain.

Could it be after he retrieves the dagger from Tar Valon? That is a nice distinct juncture, but perhaps not. It is in Book VII that he slashes Rand with the dagger which seems pretty pivotal. But that could be the Pattern bending and adapting to a new event (just like it adapts to balefire).

What do you think? (I have no ready answer, just some preliminary thoughts)

I think the answer is potentially important because it shows how the WoT may deviate from the original Pattern. E.g. If Pain begins to sidestep the Pattern at the end of Book IV, the fact that he briefly meets Elaida and exacerbates her paranoia could actually be a departure from the original Pattern. Which means Egwene v Messana should have played out differently originally.

Also, after he leaves the Two Rivers, he says "to Tar Valon, but first Caemlyn". He appears in the prologue of Book V in Tar Valon. What did he do in Caemlyn?

nameless
07-25-2011, 12:59 PM
He sent a group of corrupted Whitecloaks to probe Rand's defenses, killing one of his Maidens in the process.

Weird Harold
07-25-2011, 02:00 PM
Here's my question for you - when does Fain sidestep the Pattern?

He can't have sidestepped the Pattern as soon as he was infected by Mordeth, ...

I don't think there is a point where you can say, "Here he's inside the Pattern and here he is outside." The process certainly started with possession by Mordeth, but everytime we see Fain he is a bit more evil and a bit further outside of the Pattern.

FelixPax
07-25-2011, 02:50 PM
I don't think there is a point where you can say, "Here he's inside the Pattern and here he is outside." The process certainly started with possession by Mordeth, but everytime we see Fain he is a bit more evil and a bit further outside of the Pattern.


I say the reverse, there does exist a point where Fain went from inside the Pattern to outside of it. When was this? When Fain stopped having Dreams, Dreams of the Shadows assassins killing his Flesh. When did Fain's Dreams stop? When Fain Mordeth cut the Cords/Wires to simultaneously the Dark One and Creator.


It's just happenstance that readers find 'the Creature' once again after he's cut his Cords/Wires, at the very same time a 'World of Flesh' in merging with a 'World of Dreams'. It's a perfect place for 'the Creature', no Dream collared by either the Creator nor Dark One. Yet the World he's in, is taking on aspects of both Dream & Flesh.