PDA

View Full Version : The WhiteTower and the Leash


Bane Darkwulf
07-25-2011, 10:48 PM
Ok, been easing myself back into thinking about theories. The Way of Kings has got me speculating again, and naturally my mind turned to WOT theories as well. I will put my theory on Shardblades into the Brandon Sanderson board when I get it fully fleshed out.

This is a theory on the Aes Sedai and the Damane.

The Gist of it is that the wheel, knowing the Last Battle was soon and the Tower was doing all it could to forget the combat weaves, decided it needed to preserve these weaves as well as it could. This caused Autur Hawkwing to send his son across the ocean to Seandar, which was one of the few places that still had channelers using the combat weaves and making Ter'Angreal. The second part is important. The WT forgot how to make TA by this time, as they had been cataloging when, if they could make them they would have been.

The Wheel also made it to where the Seanchan wanted to "reclaim" the territory that their founders had to abandon when they crossed the ocean.

That TA were able to be made by the Seanchan is due to the fact they had channelers who most likely had armies that they were supplying with weapons and items that used the OP. This would keep them from being over run too easily. It wouldn't take but a little bit of experimentation to make an item that bound the channelers to the whim of another. So they developed Ad'am.

When it became imperative that the WT know the combat weaves, the Seanchan just happened to land in Falme. Egwene was captured, and taught some of those weaves. She now has fully trained Damane that are in training to become Aes Sedai, and will most likely choose the Green, as that is where most of their knowledge of channeling would be useful. The Green, or Battle Ajah, will want to learn these weave the quickest so that they can hold on to the reason they were created.

Yes, I basically claimed that the Wheel has an intelligence behind it. This should be a given, as only a stupid would leave a prison unchecked. It would become the playground of the inmate(s). Like Austraiia, or the state of Georgia.

GonzoTheGreat
07-26-2011, 03:11 AM
When it became imperative that the WT know the combat weaves, the Seanchan just happened to land in Falme. Egwene was captured, and taught some of those weaves. She now has fully trained Damane that are in training to become Aes Sedai, and will most likely choose the Green, as that is where most of their knowledge of channeling would be useful. The Green, or Battle Ajah, will want to learn these weave the quickest so that they can hold on to the reason they were created.IN general, becoming really good at fighting takes quite a bit of training, typically on the order of years.
The AS in the White Tower now have days to manage that. Assuming, of course, that they will actually admit their own ignorance and allow those Novices to train full AS using the "damane training regime".

Anyone want to place bets on this working? :p

David Selig
07-26-2011, 04:46 AM
IN general, becoming really good at fighting takes quite a bit of training, typically on the order of years.
Not in WoT though. See Rand, Perrin or Aram for notable examples. On the channelling side, Nynaeve was beating Forsaken after less than a year of training, and rand right form the start (though I guess in his case that was partly due to LTT's influence).

She now has fully trained Damane that are in training to become Aes Sedai
She has? I don't remember anyone fitting this description.

Zombie Sammael
07-26-2011, 07:45 AM
The Wheel no doubt does have intelligence, of a sort, behind it, but it's sole directive is self-preservation:

Someone asked if the Seanchan taking over the entire world would be a victory for the Light or the Dark. Brandon said it would be a victory for the Light because the Dark One would not have won.

So the Wheel bringing a large army of individuals including channelers who will fight against the Shadow to Randland is merely a function of its self-preservation directive. But the Wheel is smarter than that - it "knows" that that army is going to go to war with the other large army of individuals who are fighting for its own preservation, so it will find some way to join the two together. The a'dam itself could be a function of this - as unpleasant as it is, it would get all of the channelers together on the same side to fight against the Dark. It appears that time has run out for that option, however, and so it's come up with a better solution; see Eg's dream about the Seanchan woman, Avi's vision, and Mat's new job.

I think that there is a kind of free will within the Pattern for individuals, but that when that free will is exercised in such a way as to be disruptive to the Wheel's self-preservation mechanism, it will weave against it. The self-preservation instinct is also able to see the whole Wheel, past and future, and thus weave things that don't seem to have any impact immediately to have a major impact thousands of years down the line, against whatever threat emerges next.

JOS
07-26-2011, 10:41 AM
Yes, I basically claimed that the Wheel has an intelligence behind it. This should be a given, as only a stupid would leave a prison unchecked. It would become the playground of the inmate(s). Like Austraiia, or the state of Georgia.

Wait, isn't DragonCon 2012 in Georgia?

In EotW we saw that the Creator can intervene, but choses to do so through the threads of the pattern (like "the chosen one"). If this is the case, the Creator could be like a weaver at the loom. Let the machine do the work, but choose the threads and "tweak" and "tinker" as needed.

If you reach your hand in there while the machine is running, you could ruin the whole thing . . .

Of course, there is so much individual choice involved in the weaving of the pattern that a simple loom analogy doesn't quite suffice, but it could explain how some things work in Randland.

GonzoTheGreat
07-26-2011, 10:43 AM
Maybe a spinning wheel analogy would be neater.

Marie Curie 7
07-26-2011, 08:38 PM
The Gist of it is that the wheel, knowing the Last Battle was soon and the Tower was doing all it could to forget the combat weaves, decided it needed to preserve these weaves as well as it could. This caused Autur Hawkwing to send his son across the ocean to Seandar, which was one of the few places that still had channelers using the combat weaves and making Ter'Angreal. The second part is important. The WT forgot how to make TA by this time, as they had been cataloging when, if they could make them they would have been.

There is no significant indication that the knowledge of making of ter'angreal was still widely known in Seanchan at the time, and much more indication that the knowledge was dying out there as well. Obviously, at least one Aes Sedai remained in Seanchan who still knew how to make ter'angreal: Deain, who made the first a'dam and was herself leashed. However, RJ stated that the Seanchan currently only know how to make one type of ter'angreal, the a'dam:

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Q: Do certain races have better ability at channeling than others? For example, the Sea Folk at very good at weather, the Aiel have a high proportion of Dreamers, and the Seanchan can make ter'angreal.

RJ: The Seanchan can only make one kind of ter'angreal. They haven't thought about making another. Certain groups are better at some abilities but it's a matter of need. The Atha'an Miere are dependent on the sea, the wind and water and it would be natural for them to develop high skills to deal with control of weather and winds. For the Aiel, Dreaming is one of the ways to find new water, using need is how they find water. When the population in a hold is too great, and they have to find a new hold, the Dreamwalker uses need to find it. So yes, there are more Dreamwalkers there.

There was some consternation about this around the time of TGS because of the ter'angreal rings that the Seanchan Bloodknives use, because the assumption was that the Seanchan must have damane manufacture them. However, Brandon was asked about this and reiterated that the Seanchan only know how to make just that one type of ter'angreal:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting

Q. Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

A. Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.

The conclusion from that is something to the effect that the Seanchan at some point must have found a cache of the rings left behind by some Aes Sedai and kept them for their use.


The Wheel also made it to where the Seanchan wanted to "reclaim" the territory that their founders had to abandon when they crossed the ocean.

That TA were able to be made by the Seanchan is due to the fact they had channelers who most likely had armies that they were supplying with weapons and items that used the OP. This would keep them from being over run too easily. It wouldn't take but a little bit of experimentation to make an item that bound the channelers to the whim of another. So they developed Ad'am.

If a significant number of Aes Sedai in Seanchan knew how to make ter'angreal at the time that Luthair Paendrag consolidated the empire, it seems likely that the knowledge would have been preserved among the Aes Sedai who were leashed, most especially if the ter'angreal were in any way related to weapons and could be used in some way to aid in the Consolidation or stabilization of the empire. However, it's been made clear that only the a'dam is made by Seanchan damane.

Also, the a'dam was made by just one Aes Sedai who wanted to gain favor with Luthair during the Consolidation, not before:

TITLE: BWB
CHAPTER: 17 - Seanchan

The second thing that enabled Luthair Paendrag to conquer such a vast land, and one with so many unruly Aes Sedai, was the discovery of the a'dam, which enabled him to force captured Aes Sedai to serve him, and later the discovery of sul'dam, which meant that he no longer needed Aes Sedai allies at all. There is no doubt that the current power of the Imperial family over an entire continent is directly linked to their subjugation and control of all Seanchan Aes Sedai. It is fairly certain that in the beginning Luthair knew that sul'dam were women who could be trained to use the One Power, but with his antipathy toward Aes Sedai this information was likely suppressed. Certainly it was lost within a hundred years.

. . .

The first a'dam was made by an Aes Sedai, Deain, who brought it to Luthair Paendrag in an attempt to curry favor with him. She knew he had no Aes Sedai in his armies, and for the most part the Aes Sedai hated him. Deain believed that Luthair would eventually win and felt that she would be richly rewarded for bringing him a gift that could hand him the Power of the Aes Sedai, willing or not. Several years after that, the first sul'dam were found - women who could learn to channel and had the spark, but could not actually channel without training. These women were considered ideal controllers of the damane, the Leashed Ones. For her trouble Deain was rewarded with imprisonment by her own device. She was, after all, Aes Sedai and thus not to be trusted. It is said her screams "shook the Towers of Midnight."


When it became imperative that the WT know the combat weaves, the Seanchan just happened to land in Falme. Egwene was captured, and taught some of those weaves. She now has fully trained Damane that are in training to become Aes Sedai, and will most likely choose the Green, as that is where most of their knowledge of channeling would be useful. The Green, or Battle Ajah, will want to learn these weave the quickest so that they can hold on to the reason they were created.

The damane are certainly trained as weapons, as Egwene was when she was held by the Seanchan. However, most of the Seanchan battle weaves that I recall are things like making the earth explode in front of an advancing troop and calling down lightning from the sky or throwing fireballs, nothing significantly different from the weaves the current Aes Sedai use (not like the difference between using fireballs and Deathgates or Arrows of Fire). Anyway, Egwene knows the Seanchan weaves and can teach them to sisters. The captured damane, on the other hand, with the exception of Alivia, have all been reluctant to be released from their collars. The main problem with Aes Sedai in battle to date has been the restriction of the Oaths.


Yes, I basically claimed that the Wheel has an intelligence behind it. This should be a given, as only a stupid would leave a prison unchecked. It would become the playground of the inmate(s). Like Austraiia, or the state of Georgia.

The intelligence behind the Wheel is the Creator, but we know that he does not interfere. The Wheel itself is not sentient, but according to RJ it is like the most powerful supercomputer you could ever imagine:

DragonCon 5 September 2005 - Tamyrlin reporting

Question: At the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn't the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

Bane Darkwulf
07-26-2011, 09:13 PM
The funny part is, you act like you are poking holes in my theory, but you just keep reinforcing it.

There is no significant indication that the knowledge of making of ter'angreal was still widely known in Seanchan at the time, and much more indication that the knowledge was dying out there as well. Obviously, at least one Aes Sedai remained in Seanchan who still knew how to make ter'angreal: Deain, who made the first a'dam and was herself leashed. However, RJ stated that the Seanchan currently only know how to make one type of ter'angreal, the a'dam.

If a significant number of Aes Sedai in Seanchan knew how to make ter'angreal at the time that Luthair Paendrag consolidated the empire, it seems likely that the knowledge would have been preserved among the Aes Sedai who were leashed, most especially if the ter'angreal were in any way related to weapons and could be used in some way to aid in the Consolidation or stabilization of the empire. However, it's been made clear that only the a'dam is made by Seanchan damane.


They only taught the Damane to make the A'dam at first because they needed them to subdue the Aes Sedai in Seandar. Afterwards they would not have felt the need to make other TA due to having the local time equivalent of the atomic bomb.

The damane are certainly trained as weapons, as Egwene was when she was held by the Seanchan. However, most of the Seanchan battle weaves that I recall are things like making the earth explode in front of an advancing troop and calling down lightning from the sky or throwing fireballs, nothing significantly different from the weaves the current Aes Sedai use (not like the difference between using fireballs and Deathgates or Arrows of Fire). Anyway, Egwene knows the Seanchan weaves and can teach them to sisters. The captured damane, on the other hand, with the exception of Alivia, have all been reluctant to be released from their collars. The main problem with Aes Sedai in battle to date has been the restriction of the Oaths.


I certainly don't remember any Aes Sedai making the ground explode, but I certainly do remember Asha'man doing so.

The intelligence behind the Wheel is the Creator, but we know that he does not interfere. The Wheel itself is not sentient, but according to RJ it is like the most powerful supercomputer you could ever imagine:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
DragonCon 5 September 2005 - Tamyrlin reporting

Question: At the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn't the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

Did I say that it was a anything but an intelligence? I did not say it it was the Creator's direct hand, just that it was an intelligence.

Oh yeah, and by the way:
Quote:
She now has fully trained Damane that are in training to become Aes Sedai
She has? I don't remember anyone fitting this description.

Read the tower assault chapter:

TITLE: The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 40 - The Tower Shakes
"Well, I'm glad to have you," Egwene said, resuming her walk. "We've only rescued six other Aes Sedai, none of them Green, and we're having trouble keeping the Seanchan bottled at the eastern stairwells. I'll have one of the novices show you how to unlock the bracelets; but don't take any risks. Generally, it's easier—and much safer—to kill the damane. How familiar are you with the Tower's angreal storerooms?" "Very," Adelorna said. "Excellent," Egwene said, absently weaving as complex a weave as Adelorna had ever seen. A line of light broke the air, then rotated around itself, creating a hole into blackness. "Lucain, run and tell the others to hold. I'll be bringing more angreal soon." A brunette novice bobbed her head and rushed away. Adelorna was still staring at that hole. "Traveling," she said flatly. "You really have rediscovered it. I thought the reports wishful rumors."

She wouldn't have been teaching the novices how to unlock them if she didn't plan on bringing them in as novices.

GonzoTheGreat
07-27-2011, 03:40 AM
I certainly don't remember any Aes Sedai making the ground explode, but I certainly do remember Asha'man doing so.Verin and Alanna did it a bit localised, when, during the Two Rivers campaign, they made rocks explode. The principle is the same, but the rocks and catapults scheme probably uses less Power, so it is better suited for a medium strength channeler with backup who is defending a fixed position.

Enigma
07-27-2011, 03:56 PM
The Gist of it is that the wheel, knowing the Last Battle was soon and the Tower was doing all it could to forget the combat weaves, decided it needed to preserve these weaves as well as it could.

I don't think its fair to say that the WT is/was doing all it could to forget combat weaves. The impression I had was that battle weaves were part of the regular Accepted training program but that being AS is about more that just being a killer with the one power.

The trouble with the WT is that the Three Oaths do restrict their ability to fight as they have to be defensive but if one was really good it would not be too much of a handicap unless you are the sort to strike from a distance by surprise.

The real problem is that the Aes Sedai don't practice these weaves the same way the Asha'man and Damane do.

If I studied martial arts at college/ but never practiced them again for the next 20 years and I find my self in a fight against someone with the same training as me who has practiced every day I would not fancy my chances. When the damane attacked the WT most of what they were doing was not complely unknown to the AS, thought there were bound to be some weaves that each side had that were unknown to the other. The reason the damane were so efficient against the AS were that the damane were more efficient, faster, deadlier more practiced.

It likely that the AS who were in battle and survived will have gotten better that they were. There is nothing like life or death situations to make you brush up on your skills.

David Selig
07-27-2011, 06:36 PM
She wouldn't have been teaching the novices how to unlock them if she didn't plan on bringing them in as novices.
I was going to say that it's not clear from this whether they actually captured any damane and what Egwene intended to do with them, but I checked the epilogue of TGS and it says there were some captured damane and Egwene intended to train them as Aes Sedai, so I admit I was wrong.

Though I doubt they are novices yet, they are so heavily brainwashed they're probably still kept shielded and under guard, like most of the ones in Caemlyn were for a long time.

Weird Harold
07-27-2011, 06:49 PM
The trouble with the WT is that the Three Oaths do restrict their ability to fight as they have to be defensive but if one was really good it would not be too much of a handicap unless you are the sort to strike from a distance by surprise.

The real problem is that the Aes Sedai don't practice these weaves the same way the Asha'man and Damane do.

I think the problem is that the Oath against using the OP as a weapon doesn't contain a clause saying, "and except for practice."

Aes Sedai who are bound by the oaths can't demonstrate weaves that are strictly "weapons;" every combat weave they have taught since the inception of the Oath against using the OP as a Weapon has to have been a dual-use weave, such as "exploding earth to remove stumps" is also useful for exploding trollocs.

As far as the Seanchan, they have spent centuries deliberately supressing selective factors regarding the OP -- Sul'dam can learn to channel, if you can make a'dam you can probably make other ter'angreal too, weaves that are strictly combat, etc -- so that the Seanchan knowledge of OP usage is eratic.

The Seanchan are far ahead of the WT in mining, construction, testing for Sparkers (and Learners,) making a'dam, etc. They are far behind the WT in Healing, general OP theory, etc. They are about on the same level of technology whenit comes to combat weaves -- dual purpose or simple explosives -- as the WT but are more practices; balanced against the WT practice of linking wherever possible.

FelixPax
07-27-2011, 07:01 PM
As far as the Seanchan, they have spent centuries deliberately supressing selective factors regarding the OP -- Sul'dam can learn to channel, if you can make a'dam you can probably make other ter'angreal too, weaves that are strictly combat, etc -- so that the Seanchan knowledge of OP usage is eratic.

The Seanchan are far ahead of the WT in mining, construction, testing for Sparkers (and Learners,) making a'dam, etc. They are far behind the WT in Healing, general OP theory, etc. They are about on the same level of technology whenit comes to combat weaves -- dual purpose or simple explosives -- as the WT but are more practices; balanced against the WT practice of linking wherever possible.

True, the average Seanchan Sul'dam have had less actual training time on average than any given Westland Aes Sedai. Why? Ratio of Sul'dam to Damane is too skewed. Too few damane. (Perhaps Perrin's gift of Shaido Wise Ones altered this?)

Then again Seanchan can force their Damane to learn weaves, but who can force a Sul'dam to learn how to weave?


What's a lifespan of a Sul'dam?
If Sul'dam don't actually channel their own Saidar, shouldn't their average lifespan be far less?
Thus the controller's of damane, should have more knowledge limitations on average.

Sul'dam can't really be truthful with themselves, and openly decide to channel... or they'll become damane instead. It's a big problem, for the Seanchan Empire.

Weird Harold
07-27-2011, 11:18 PM
What's a lifespan of a Sul'dam?

IIRC, RJ said sl'dam do NOT Slow, so their lifespan would be no more than normal -- about 70 years on average.

zacz
07-29-2011, 01:39 AM
Remember that this is not modern society and there are no modern medical advances (plus the seanchan did not know healing waves until recently). So the average lifespan is likely to be closer to 50 than 70 as it was in our own world not so long ago

Bane Darkwulf
07-30-2011, 08:52 AM
I would like Quotemaster help on this, but I seem to remember some of the Green stating how they did not know some of the weaves that the Seanchan used.

Enigma
07-30-2011, 11:24 AM
I think there was a pov from a high ranking Green sister who saw weaves in the attack that she did not recognise. They all started off with the AoL knowledge base but different parts were probably lost by different groups during the breaking so that different groups have different tricks that the other's dont know.

I highly doubt that the Seanchan have come up with too many new weaves. Why? Well any well trained damane had not a single original thought in her head and while some Sul'dam may be able to see the weaves most can't and even those who can see weaves are likely too afraid to practice new methods with their damane or simply lack the underlying theory of channeling to be able to guide a damane into new areas.

Marie Curie 7
07-30-2011, 04:22 PM
The funny part is, you act like you are poking holes in my theory, but you just keep reinforcing it.

Actually, I couldn't care less whether I poke holes in your theory or not. In my previous post, I included background information related to your theory because it appeared that you might not be aware of certain things, such as the timing of the development of the a'dam, that the Seanchan only know how to make one type of ter'angreal, the nature of the Wheel, etc.


They only taught the Damane to make the A'dam at first because they needed them to subdue the Aes Sedai in Seandar. Afterwards they would not have felt the need to make other TA due to having the local time equivalent of the atomic bomb.

In your original post, you indicated that the ability of the Seanchan to make ter'angreal was important in your theory. You said this:

The Gist of it is that the wheel, knowing the Last Battle was soon and the Tower was doing all it could to forget the combat weaves, decided it needed to preserve these weaves as well as it could. This caused Autur Hawkwing to send his son across the ocean to Seandar, which was one of the few places that still had channelers using the combat weaves and making Ter'Angreal. The second part is important. The WT forgot how to make TA by this time, as they had been cataloging when, if they could make them they would have been.

And this:

That TA were able to be made by the Seanchan is due to the fact they had channelers who most likely had armies that they were supplying with weapons and items that used the OP. This would keep them from being over run too easily. It wouldn't take but a little bit of experimentation to make an item that bound the channelers to the whim of another. So they developed Ad'am.

But now in your reply to me, you've implied that it doesn't matter that the Seanchan potentially had access to ter'angreal that could be used as weapons and other items of the One Power. During the time that the Seanchan were first collaring Aes Sedai and therefore there was the continued possibility of channeler vs. channeler battles, it would have been prudent to continue the manufacture of ter'angreal weapons to provide an advantage, if it was known how to make such ter'angreal. That there is no evidence that such weapons were used, and the fact that current damane only can make one type of ter'angreal, provides some evidence that such things were not available.

The point of all this, as far as I am concerned, is that your original post seemed to suggest that Seanchan knowledge of making ter'angreal in general was important - any ter'angreal, not just the a'dam - which is why I provided you with the quotes from RJ and Brandon that indicate that the Seanchan ONLY know how to make a'dam, nothing else. However, now you seem to be leaning toward the notion that it is the knowledge of making a'dam in specific that is important for your theory. It doesn't matter; I just don't think it was clear in the first place.


I certainly don't remember any Aes Sedai making the ground explode, but I certainly do remember Asha'man doing so.

If you read my post again, you will notice that I was referring to the Seanchan battle weaves used by damane, of the type that the Seanchan taught to Egwene when she was collared, not those that Aes Sedai may currently use. For example:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 46 - To Come Out of the Shadow

"I will not go back," Egwene said grimly. "I'll die first. Let me show them what they've taught me." To Nynaeve's eye, a golden nimbus suddenly seemed to surround her.

"No!" she said, but it was too late.

With a roar like thunder, the street under the first ranks of Seanchan erupted, dirt and cobblestones and armored men thrown aside like Spray from a fountain. Still glowing, Egwene spun to stare up the street, and the thunderous roar was repeated. Dirt rained down on the women. Shouting Seanchan soldiers scattered in good order to shelter in alleys and behind stoops. In moments they were all out of sight, except for those who lay around the two large holes marring the street. Some of those stirred feebly, and moans drifted along the street.

Egwene knows these Seanchan battle weaves, and if the other Aes Sedai do not, she can teach them.


Did I say that it was a anything but an intelligence? I did not say it it was the Creator's direct hand, just that it was an intelligence.

No, actually, you said that there was an intelligence BEHIND the Wheel, not that the Wheel was some sort of an intelligence. And that is why I provided you with the quote that explains exactly how RJ thought of the Wheel - as a massively complex supercomputer.


Following up on this series of comments:

Oh yeah, and by the way:

She now has fully trained Damane that are in training to become Aes Sedai

She has? I don't remember anyone fitting this description.

Read the tower assault chapter:

TITLE: The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 40 - The Tower Shakes

"Well, I'm glad to have you," Egwene said, resuming her walk. "We've only rescued six other Aes Sedai, none of them Green, and we're having trouble keeping the Seanchan bottled at the eastern stairwells. I'll have one of the novices show you how to unlock the bracelets; but don't take any risks. Generally, it's easier—and much safer—to kill the damane. How familiar are you with the Tower's angreal storerooms?" "Very," Adelorna said. "Excellent," Egwene said, absently weaving as complex a weave as Adelorna had ever seen. A line of light broke the air, then rotated around itself, creating a hole into blackness. "Lucain, run and tell the others to hold. I'll be bringing more angreal soon." A brunette novice bobbed her head and rushed away. Adelorna was still staring at that hole. "Traveling," she said flatly. "You really have rediscovered it. I thought the reports wishful rumors."

She wouldn't have been teaching the novices how to unlock them if she didn't plan on bringing them in as novices.

It seems like you are missing or ignoring some information from this section of KOD. Egwene was in part showing the novices and sisters how to unlock the a'dam at this point in case they encountered any novices or initiates of the Tower who had been taken by the Seanchan and in need of being freed (mentioned in your quote above and repeated below). In addition, she did show them how to do unlock the bracelet in order to free damane. However, she cautioned that in most cases, it was better to kill the damane than capture them:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 40 - The Tower Shakes

"Well, I'm glad to have you," Egwene said, resuming her walk. "We've only rescued six other Aes Sedai, none of them Green, and we're having trouble keeping the Seanchan bottled at the eastern stairwells. I'll have one of the novices show you how to unlock the bracelets; but don't take any risks. Generally, it's easier — and much safer — to kill the damane. How familiar are you with the Tower's angreal storerooms?"

And in fact, that's what she did, mostly:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 41 - A Fount of Power

But she was a fount of Power, drawn from deep within the fluted rod in her hands, channeled through a group of novices and Accepted hiding in the room behind, bound to her in circle. Egwene was part of the fires that burned in the Tower, bloodying the sky with their flames, painting the air with their smoke. She almost seemed not a being of flesh, but one of pure Power, sending judgment to those who had dared bring war to the Tower itself. Blasts of lightning stormed from the sky, the clouds churning above. Fire sprouted from her hands.

Perhaps she should have feared breaking the Three Oaths. But she did not. This was a fight that needed to be fought, and she did not lust for death — though, perhaps, her rage against the sul'dam approached it. The soldiers and damane were unfortunate casualties.

The White Tower, the sacred dwelling of the Aes Sedai, was under attack. They were all in danger, a danger greater than death. Those silvery collars were far worse. Egwene defended herself and each woman in the Tower.

As far as I know, we don't know exactly how many damane were captured rather than killed, but it appears to have been a rather small number. From Egwene, we only learn of only ten damane captured:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 41 - A Fount of Power

She'd fought. She'd been glorious and destructive, the Amyrlin of judgment and fury, Green Ajah to the core. And still, the Tower had burned. And still, more to'raken had escaped than had fallen. The count of wounded among those she'd gathered was somewhat encouraging. Only three novices and one Aes Sedai dead, while they'd gathered ten damane and killed dozens of soldiers. But what of the other floors? The White Tower would not come out ahead in this battle.

You are correct, though, that Egwene suggested that the damane who were captured should be trained as Aes Sedai:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: Epilogue - Bathed in Light

Of course, Egwene also had two stiff letters of disapproval — one from Romanda and one from Lelaine—on the bottom of her stack. The two women had withdrawn their effusive support almost as quickly as they'd given it. Right now, they were arguing over what to do with the damane Egwene had captured during the White Tower raid, and neither one liked Egwene's plan to train them as Aes Sedai.

However, if there were only 10 or 20 or even 50 damane captured by the White Tower, with about a thousand Aes Sedai and a total channeling population in Randland of probably several thousand at least, it doesn't seem to me that such a thing would have a particularly significant impact on the Last Battle; there are just too few captured damane.

In addition, we know from Elayne's experiences with the damane that Rand sent her, as one example, that most of the damane are reluctant to learn anything further of channeling, and the vast majority of them beg to have the collar replaced:

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 14 - Wet Things

One of the women with Reanne was Kara Defane, who had been the wise woman, or Healer, of a fishing village on Toman Head before the Seanchan collared her. Plump and merry-eyed in brown wool with embroidered blue and white flowers at her cuffs, Kara appeared little older than Elayne. though she was nearly fifty. The other was named Jillari. a former damane from Seanchan. Despite everything, the sight of her made Elayne’s flesh feel cold. Whatever else could be said of her, the woman was Seanchan, after all.

Not even Jillari herself knew how old she was, though she appeared just into her middle years. Slight of build, with long, fiery red hair and eyes as green as Aviendha’s. she and Marille, the other Seanchan-born damane who remained in the palace, persisted in maintaining that they still were damane, that they needed to be collared because of what they could do. Daily walks were one way the Kin were trying to accustom them to freedom. Carefully supervised walks, of course. They were always closely watched, day and night. Either might try to free the suldam, otherwise. For that matter, Kara herself was not trusted alone with any of the sul’dam, nor was Lemore, a young Taraboner noble collared when Tanchico fell. The notion would not come to them on its own, yet there was no saying what either would do if a suldam ordered her to help the woman escape. The habit of obedience remained strong in Kara and Lemore both.

While Egwene does want to have the captured damane trained as Aes Sedai, this is a process that will take a substantial amount of time in order to acclimate the damane to life without the collar - this is not something that seems likely to happen to any large degree prior the Last Battle. And if their purpose in your theory was for them to provide Seanchan battle weaves to the Aes Sedai, Egwene knows them and can teach the other Aes Sedai, as I stated before.



I would like Quotemaster help on this, but I seem to remember some of the Green stating how they did not know some of the weaves that the Seanchan used.

There are no 'actual' Quotemasters or Quotemistresses around any more who regularly post in WoT discussion. Callandor left. JWB is around sometimes, but rarely posts in WoT discussion; the same is true for Frenzy. And Zaela is still Mistress of Novices, so she welcomes noobs but also rarely posts in WoT discussion. And Terez is not posting in WoT discussion now.

So, you're on your own, unless you can get some other non-QM to help you out, which of course does happen. In this case, there is this:

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 27 - A Plain Wooden Box

“Your scheme do entail a good deal of luck,” Teslyn said, not for the first time. Even shadowed, her face looked hard. She shifted in her saddle, adjusting her cloak. “It be coo late to change everything, but this part can be abandoned certainly.” He would have preferred to have Bethamin or Seta, neither bound by the Three Oaths and both knowing the weaves damane used for weapons, something that horrified the Aes Sedai. Not the weaves; just that Bethamin and Seta knew them. At least, he thought he would. Leilwin had flatly refused to fight any Seanchan except to defend herself. Bethamin and Seta might have done the same, or found at the last minute that they could not act against their countrymen. In any case, the Aes Sedai had rejected allowing the two women to be involved, and neither had opened her mouth once that was said. That pair were too meek around Aes Sedai to say boo to a goose.

But that doesn't say that the Aes Sedai didn't know those weaves, just that they were horrified that the former sul'dam knew them.

I didn't do an exhaustive search, though - there might be other more specific quotes. But what does it matter, since Egwene knows the damane battle weaves?