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The Unreasoner
07-29-2011, 01:53 AM
I'm about to post three theories (my first), and I'd like a heads up if there is something obvious that proves any of them wrong so I won't bother.
Essentially:
Verin's perpendicular worlds=Jordan's parallel worlds.

The Dark One doesn't exist (as a consciousness).

The Dark One has already conquered at least one parallel world.

I have (some) evidence for all, and I feel the conclusion of one aids the proof of the others, but is there anything that severely undercuts my theories?

The Unreasoner
07-29-2011, 02:22 AM
i remember here!

and what sort of spambot are you?

Zombie Sammael
07-29-2011, 03:26 AM
When you say parallel world, I assume you mean that as distinct from mirror world?

The Unreasoner
07-29-2011, 03:51 AM
When you say parallel world, I assume you mean that as distinct from mirror world?

You are a remarkable man, to recognize what I meant, even with typos.

In answer to your question, I do.

**OP edited**

************This Post Edited to note that Zombie may have been responding to a different point, but my answer is still yes*************

Zombie Sammael
07-29-2011, 04:18 AM
You are a remarkable man, to recognize what I meant, even with typos.

In answer to your question, I do.

**OP edited**

************This Post Edited to note that Zombie may have been responding to a different point, but my answer is still yes*************

It's just that the theories wouldn't make sense off the bat if you were referring to Mirror Worlds. I think you should post them, and see what happens. I find the one about the DO already having conquered another world particularly interesting, as it may spark some lively debate about what he intends to do when/if he does get out, among other things. :)

WinespringBrother
07-29-2011, 09:27 AM
I'm about to post three theories (my first), and I'd like a heads up if there is something obvious that proves any of them wrong so I won't bother.
Essentially:
Verin's perpendicular worlds=Jordan's parallel worlds.

The Dark One doesn't exist (as a consciousness).

The Dark One has already conquered at least one parallel world.

I have (some) evidence for all, and I feel the conclusion of one aids the proof of the others, but is there anything that severely undercuts my theories?

1. RJ has been on record as saying that perpendicular worlds are not the same as parallel worlds.

2. That one sounds interesting, though it does contradict the BWB and would be a flaky way to wind up the series.

3. By conquered, do you mean like the world where Rand, Loial and Hurin visited, with the statue at Talidar showing the Trolloc victory, or as in the Dark One breaking out and destroying the Pattern? If the latter, that would contradict what Verin told Egwene, though I guess that is possible.

Zombie Sammael
07-29-2011, 10:33 AM
3. By conquered, do you mean like the world where Rand, Loial and Hurin visited, with the statue at Talidar showing the Trolloc victory, or as in the Dark One breaking out and destroying the Pattern? If the latter, that would contradict what Verin told Egwene, though I guess that is possible.

Interesting that this can happen from merely an idea, but as I checked, Mr Unreasoner said specifically parallel world as opposed to mirror world. The world Rand, Loial and Hurin visited was certainly a mirror world, and we know for a fact that if he got out in a mirror world he'd be out in all of them. The idea that he may already have managed to get his claws into a parallel world, i.e. a world like Finnland or Ogierland, is more interesting.

The Unreasoner
07-29-2011, 11:10 AM
1. RJ has been on record as saying that perpendicular worlds are not the same as parallel worlds.
Can you point me in the direction of a quote? I'd like to know if this theory can be retooled or if it was DOA

2. That one sounds interesting, though it does contradict the BWB and would be a flaky way to wind up the series.

Lots of things contradict the BWB, and as for the rest...I'm not denying it an agency on par with the Wheel, in fact my last theory sort of demands it, or else a phenomenal effort on the part of some hypothetical selfless Forsaken.
3. By conquered, do you mean like the world where Rand, Loial and Hurin visited, with the statue at Talidar showing the Trolloc victory, or as in the Dark One breaking out and destroying the Pattern? If the latter, that would contradict what Verin told Egwene, though I guess that is possible.
I am unsure that we have any conclusive evidence that the Dark One breaking completely free is synonymous with the destruction of the Pattern, but my theory primarily deals with a world where the Dark One has won a permanent lesser victory.

Zombie Sammael
07-29-2011, 12:16 PM
Can you point me in the direction of a quote? I'd like to know if this theory can be retooled or if it was DOA

WH may be referring to this:

Tamyrlin: This is in reference to a previous question I asked you about Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds, today I believe, and you mentioned they are different. And the question I had about Portal Stones was, do Portal Stones lead to Parallel Worlds, Mirror Worlds, or both?
Jordan: They lead to Mirror Worlds, the Portal Stones can take you to Mirror Worlds, not to Parallels, which are separate.

BTW you ought to be able to use the interview database yourself by now. :-P

The Unreasoner
07-29-2011, 12:24 PM
WH may be referring to this:



BTW you ought to be able to use the interview database yourself by now. :-P

I use that quote to argue my points. I know of no quote in the database that even mentions perpendicular worlds.

And I know how to use the database. WSB may know of a quote that I failed to find though.

WinespringBrother
07-29-2011, 12:30 PM
Can you point me in the direction of a quote? I'd like to know if this theory can be retooled or if it was DOA.
I was actually thinking of this quote, which implies but does not state unequivocally that they are different: (and this should be in the Q&A database somewhere, I was lazy and googled it and copied/pasted from 13th Depository (http://13depository.blogspot.com/search/label/What%20RJ%20Said)

Q43: Do the Finns inhabit a perpendicular world?

RJ: No, it is a parallel world.


I am unsure that we have any conclusive evidence that the Dark One breaking completely free is synonymous with the destruction of the Pattern, but my theory primarily deals with a world where the Dark One has won a permanent lesser victory.

Sounds like an interesting theory-I'd like to see this, since I've never noticed anything that would imply the Dark One did such a thing.

WH may be referring to this:



BTW you ought to be able to use the interview database yourself by now. :-P

People sometimes confuse me with JWB, but rarely WH lol

Zombie Sammael
07-29-2011, 12:33 PM
I was actually thinking of this quote, which implies but does not state unequivocally that they are different: (and this should be in the Q&A database somewhere, I was lazy and googled it and copied/pasted from 13th Depository (http://13depository.blogspot.com/search/label/What%20RJ%20Said)

Q43: Do the Finns inhabit a perpendicular world?

RJ: No, it is a parallel world.




Sounds like an interesting theory-I'd like to see this, since I've never noticed anything that would imply the Dark One did such a thing.



People sometimes confuse me with JWB, but rarely WH lol

Sorry, you both have names that start with W and I'm excessively lazy. Really sorry!

The Unreasoner
07-29-2011, 01:29 PM
I was actually thinking of this quote, which implies but does not state unequivocally that they are different: (and this should be in the Q&A database somewhere, I was lazy and googled it and copied/pasted from 13th Depository

It's not in the database, which is odd, because the rest of your questions are there (the bells and ta'veren and whatnot). I guess Terez cut that one out. Can't imagine why. had to dig into yuku to confirm.

I'm wondering how to interpret this quote.

Marie Curie 7
07-29-2011, 05:59 PM
It's not in the database, which is odd, because the rest of your questions are there (the bells and ta'veren and whatnot). I guess Terez cut that one out. Can't imagine why. had to dig into yuku to confirm.

I'm sure it wasn't cut on purpose. It was probably just a copy/paste error. And I fixed it.


The Dark One doesn't exist (as a consciousness).

Who was it who was talking to Demandred in the LOC Prologue, then? ;)

Anyway, not only does your idea contradict the BWB, as WSB mentioned, it seems to me that it contradicts most of what RJ said about the Dark One. Just one example:

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's points of view that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?

Robert Jordan Answers: It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.

If the Dark One doesn't exist as a consciousness, then why does RJ speak of him 'consciously acting'?


The Dark One has already conquered at least one parallel world.

This seems to be at least partially ruled out by what the Ogier think about these things, if by that statement you mean that the Dark One is free in that parallel world:

TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 19 - Vows

"The War of the Hundred Years was a human affair, and none of ours. The Shadow is our affair. When it is the Shadow that must be fought, our axes have always grown long handles. Perhaps in a year, or five, or ten, we will open the Book of Translation, but if we do it now, we cannot run away with any real hope of safety. Tarmon Gai’don is coming, and on that hangs the fate not only of this world, but of any world we might flee to. When fire threatens the trees, we do not run away and hope that the flames will not follow us. We fight. Now the Shadow is coming like wildfire, and we dare not run from it." Something was moving among the trees, all along the line he could see. A herd of cattle? A very big herd, if so.

Couple that with Verin's comments about the Pattern and the Dark One, and it seems unlikely that the Dark One is free anywhere:

TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 21 - A World of Dreams

"Very good. But the Pattern may be even more complex than that, child. The Wheel weaves our lives to make the Pattern of an Age, but the Ages themselves are woven into the Age Lace, the Great Pattern. Who can know if this is even the tenth part of the weaving, though? Some in the Age of Legends apparently believe that there were still other worlds – even harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones, if that can be believed – lying like this." She drew more lines, cross-hatching the first set. For a moment she stared at them. "The warp and the woof of the weave. Perhaps the Wheel of Time weaves a still greater Pattern from worlds." Straightening, she dusted her hands. "Well, that is neither here nor there. In all of these worlds, whatever their other variations, a few things are constant. One is that the Dark One is imprisoned in all of them."

In spite of herself, Egwene stepped closer to peer at the lines Verin had drawn. "In all of them? How can that be? Are you saying there is a Father of Lies for each world?" The thought of so many Dark Ones made her shiver.

"No, child. There is one Creator, who exists everywhere at once for all of these worlds. In the same way, there is only one Dark One, who also exists in all of these worlds at once. If he is freed from the prison the Creator made in one world, he is freed on all. So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains imprisoned on all."

Notice here that Verin is talking about all the worlds, the parallel ones and perpendicular ones.

The Unreasoner
07-29-2011, 06:23 PM
I'm sure it wasn't cut on purpose. It was probably just a copy/paste error. And I fixed it.
Many thanks. I thought maybe it was seen as an unimportant quote, but that makes more sense.
Who was it who was talking to Demandred in the LOC Prologue, then?
My theory basically says madness.
Anyway, not only does your idea contradict the BWB, as WSB mentioned, it seems to me that it contradicts most of what RJ said about the Dark One. Just one example...

If the Dark One doesn't exist as a consciousness, then why does RJ speak of him 'consciously acting'?
Again, I'm not denying it an agency on par with the Wheel. I don't know why RJ said what he did.
This seems to be at least partially ruled out by what the Ogier think about these things, if by that statement you mean that the Dark One is free in that parallel world...

Couple that with Verin's comments about the Pattern and the Dark One, and it seems unlikely that the Dark One is free anywhere...
Again, my theory primarily deals with a world where the Dark One has won a permanent lesser victory. He is not free. An open Bore, no patch, and none alive to make one. Or widen the Bore further.
Notice here that Verin is talking about all the worlds, the parallel ones and perpendicular ones.
I rely this very quote quite heavily for all of these theories.

One or two may end up wrong. Maybe even all three. But I see evidence, so I'll finish putting it together. I did need some potential arguments that I am required to knock down, and Marie Curie did a great job. WSB's point is critical. And I like WSB's style with one of his theories.

Going to finish it up now...

Tamyrlin
07-31-2011, 06:47 PM
WSB - he is arguing that Verin uses the word "parallel" when describing Mirror Worlds and then mentions worlds that run perpendicular to the wheel. While Perpendicular to me suggests something completely other than a Parallel World, technically no quote denies Verin's perpendicular worlds from being "Parallel Worlds".

In essence it would be:

Verin's Parallel = Jordan's Mirror Worlds (this is factual)
Verin's Perpendicular = Jordan's Parallel Worlds (this is the theory)

Unreasoner - as to proof that weighs against, Egwene speaks about peeking into dreams through the GOI regarding Perpendicular Worlds and speaks of how they are so far from reality. And we are told that Ogier come from a Parallel World. The fact that they fit within the reality of Randland, and even the Finn world is not so different that it cannot be traversed and understood suggest to me that Perpendicular worlds are a type of Mirror World (within that Layer of reality) instead of mixing the concepts of reality and un-reality. And such will be my case against your theory, but you already knew that. And no I don't feel like finding the Egwene quote atm. ;)

Zombie Sammael
07-31-2011, 07:07 PM
TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 21 - A World of Dreams

"Very good. But the Pattern may be even more complex than that, child. The Wheel weaves our lives to make the Pattern of an Age, but the Ages themselves are woven into the Age Lace, the Great Pattern. Who can know if this is even the tenth part of the weaving, though? Some in the Age of Legends apparently believe that there were still other worlds – even harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones, if that can be believed – lying like this." She drew more lines, cross-hatching the first set. For a moment she stared at them. "The warp and the woof of the weave. Perhaps the Wheel of Time weaves a still greater Pattern from worlds." Straightening, she dusted her hands. "Well, that is neither here nor there. In all of these worlds, whatever their other variations, a few things are constant. One is that the Dark One is imprisoned in all of them."

In spite of herself, Egwene stepped closer to peer at the lines Verin had drawn. "In all of them? How can that be? Are you saying there is a Father of Lies for each world?" The thought of so many Dark Ones made her shiver.

"No, child. There is one Creator, who exists everywhere at once for all of these worlds. In the same way, there is only one Dark One, who also exists in all of these worlds at once. If he is freed from the prison the Creator made in one world, he is freed on all. So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains imprisoned on all."

It seems to me here that Verin - having mentioned portal stones - is talking specifically about mirror worlds. The idea that the DO could be free in at least one parallel world - i.e. the world of the Finn, Ogier, etc - to me seems more plausible. The notion that he's won a permanent lesser victory in at least one mirror world is not a theory, it's a fact directly confirmed by TGH and the time Rand, Loial, Hurin and Lanfear spent in a mirror world which had been overrun by Trollocs.

I am becoming slightly confused by all the talk of perpendicular worlds. Are they mirror worlds or parallel worlds?

The Unreasoner
07-31-2011, 07:13 PM
I am becoming slightly confused by all the talk of perpendicular worlds. Are they mirror worlds or parallel worlds?

I am basically arguing that they don't exist. But parallel worlds more than mirrors, though each parallel could have its own mirrors.

@Tamyrlin:
I had the quote, LoC-14
The great spangled ocean of darkness swirled around her, seeming to move while she stood still. A fish at home in that ocean, she swam confidently, without really needing to think about it any more than the fish did. Those flickering lights were dreams, all the dreams of all the people of the world. Of all worlds, places that were not quite the world she knew, worlds nothing like it at all. Verin Sedai first told her of those, the Wise Ones affirmed it was so, and she herself had glimpsed things, peeking in, that she simply could not credit, not even in a dream. Not nightmares—those always seemed washed in red, or blue, or a murky gray like deep shadows—but filled with impossible things. Better to avoid them; clearly she did not belong in those worlds. Peering into such a dream was like suddenly being surrounded by broken mirrors, everything whirling and no way to tell up from down. It made her want to empty her stomach, and if she did not have one here, she would again on stepping back into her body. Sicking up was no way to wake yourself.

It seems that Finnland level oddities would be consistent with this quote.

Tamyrlin
07-31-2011, 10:19 PM
It seems that Finnland level oddities would be consistent with this quote.

Verin Sedai first told her of those, the Wise Ones affirmed it was so, and she herself had glimpsed things, peeking in, that she simply could not credit, not even in a dream. Not nightmares—those always seemed washed in red, or blue, or a murky gray like deep shadows—but filled with impossible things. Better to avoid them; clearly she did not belong in those worlds. Peering into such a dream was like suddenly being surrounded by broken mirrors, everything whirling and no way to tell up from down.


Saw things she could not credit even in a dream.
Filled with impossible things.
Like being surrounded by broken mirrors.
No way to tell up from down.


I don't think that describes the finnland experiences we've had. As Egwene suggests, I think visiting such would cause her to throw up, if she could even survive in such a world because her brain wouldn't be able to make sense of the experience. Finnland is odd, but not incomprehensible.

But I can agree that this Egwene quote isn't definitive.

The Unreasoner
07-31-2011, 11:09 PM
An interesting quote from ToM...
It had been a long walk before. Or had it been a short one? Time blended here. It seemed that they ran for many hours, yet it also felt like moments.
And then the doorway was in front of them, appearing like a striking adder. It had not been there a moment before. The rim of the opening was intricately carved wood, with an impossible pattern of weaving vines that seemed to double back on one another and make no sense. All three pulled to a halt. "Mirrors," Noal said. "I've seen it before. That's how they do it, obscuring things with mirrors." He sounded unnerved. Where did one hide mirrors in a bloody straight tunnel?

The mirrors 'seen' by Noal and Egwene may be a sort of confabulation, their mind interpreting the unusual physical phenomena incorrectly, or with the laws of Randland. There is evidence that the variety of the worlds fall along a spectrum, Finnland being more unusual than Ogierland (as viewed by Randlanders), and other worlds may be more unusual still.

*******Edited to add*******
I realize it's not a one-to-one comparison, but Egwene's mind may have been incapable of coming up with the words to describe whatever bizarre phenomena she encountered. I find that the word 'mirrors' is a telling insight into the authors' thought processes. The mind consistently assigns a (wrong) explanation to optical illusions.

Does anyone know how firm the five paragraph thing is? I make my case for the first theory, such as it is, in three (discounting quotes), but I see theories on the order of twenty paragraphs.

The Unreasoner
08-01-2011, 05:28 AM
...Two to go.

The first (and most mundane) of the three. Let's see if it gets through.

WinespringBrother
08-01-2011, 09:10 AM
WSB - he is arguing that Verin uses the word "parallel" when describing Mirror Worlds and then mentions worlds that run perpendicular to the wheel. While Perpendicular to me suggests something completely other than a Parallel World, technically no quote denies Verin's perpendicular worlds from being "Parallel Worlds".

In essence it would be:

Verin's Parallel = Jordan's Mirror Worlds (this is factual)
Verin's Perpendicular = Jordan's Parallel Worlds (this is the theory)

Unreasoner - as to proof that weighs against, Egwene speaks about peeking into dreams through the GOI regarding Perpendicular Worlds and speaks of how they are so far from reality. And we are told that Ogier come from a Parallel World. The fact that they fit within the reality of Randland, and even the Finn world is not so different that it cannot be traversed and understood suggest to me that Perpendicular worlds are a type of Mirror World (within that Layer of reality) instead of mixing the concepts of reality and un-reality. And such will be my case against your theory, but you already knew that. And no I don't feel like finding the Egwene quote atm. ;)

Yeah, I realized that the quote I was thinking of was not specific enough to say that parallel worlds were not the same as perpendicular worlds. However, I can't find the word 'perpendicular' mentioned anywhere in the books, using the search feature. The only thing that I can find possibly referencing that is the "warp and the woof" that Verin speaks of to Egwene in TDR ch 21:


Dragon Reborn CH: 21 - A World of Dreams
"Very good. But the Pattern may be even more complex than that, child. The Wheel weaves our lives to make the Pattern of an Age, but the Ages themselves are woven into the Age Lace, the Great Pattern. Who can know if this is even the tenth part of the weaving, though? Some in the Age of Legends apparently believe that there were still other worlds - even harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones, if that can be believed - lying like this." She drew more lines, cross-hatching the first set. For a moment she stared at them. "The warp and the woof of the weave. Perhaps the Wheel of Time weaves a still greater Pattern from worlds." Straightening, she dusted her hands. "Well, that is neither here nor there. In all of these worlds, whatever their other variations, a few things are constant. One is that the Dark One is imprisoned in all of them."

I also thought that parallel worlds were mirror worlds but that seems to be contradicted by this quote:

Tamyrlin: Okay, so are Parallel worlds and Mirror worlds the same thing?

Jordan: No, they are different.

And yet we know that Portal Stones lead to Mirror Worlds, and also to parallel worlds:

The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time CHAPTER: Exotic Animals of Seanchan

These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn. While the creatures’ effectiveness was not recorded, it was during this same period that all remaining Shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated. The creatures remained, their care and training surviving through all the political upheavals until Luthair’s arrival. The knowledge that allowed their procurement by way of the Portal Stones, however, was lost.

So maybe there is some overlap between parallel worlds and mirror worlds, but some divergence also. There are other kinds of worlds out there, that may fall into different categories:

Tel'aran'rhiod
Finnland
The Dark One's Prison
Vacuoles (not that they are necessarily world size)
Gap of Infinity
The Ways

Can't think of any others ATM.

The Unreasoner
08-01-2011, 09:14 AM
@WSB: Ogierland...(same group as Finnland (most likely, the world/worlds/realms/dimensions debate is bizarre))

****************************

http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/picture.php?albumid=7&pictureid=17
LEGEND:
Star w/circumscribed circle: The Wheel of Time
Blue Line: Ogierland
Red Line: Randland
Green Line: Other Parallel World
Purple Region: Period of Time Ogier Live in Randland

Basically a crappy diagram of how worlds could all be parallel to Time in one dimension, but must intersect with each other (and an even number of times), if the worlds are to exchange anything.
***EDITED TO ADD***
Essentially there is no reason why the worlds can't be both perpendicular to each other in one dimension while still being parallel to Time. I didn't realize how bad of a drawing that was at first, so clarification may be necessary

Tamyrlin
08-01-2011, 09:24 AM
Does anyone know how firm the five paragraph thing is? I make my case for the first theory, such as it is, in three (discounting quotes), but I see theories on the order of twenty paragraphs.

Writing as much as possible. I don't like posting theories that are not well quoted/supported. While it isn't quantity, most often the less well conceived ideas are short in their explanations.

I'll take a look and contact you if it needs more work.

The Unreasoner
08-02-2011, 10:38 PM
It occurs to me that my first theory really just alleges either Verin being metaphorical or inaccurate, so there may not be enough of an issue to take a stand on.

FelixPax
08-04-2011, 12:48 AM
I'm about to post three theories (my first), and I'd like a heads up if there is something obvious that proves any of them wrong so I won't bother.
Essentially:

The Dark One has already conquered at least one parallel world.


Moghedien has already claimed as much.


She could not hide a relieved gasp. The only reason anyone would want to enter a vacuole was that time flowed differently there, sometimes slower, sometimes faster. Sometimes much faster. She would not have been entirely surprised to learn that the Great Lord had really imprisoned her for a hundred years, or a thousand, to emerge into a world already his, to make her way feeding among carrion while the other Chosen stood at the pinnacle. She was still one of the Chosen, in her own mind, at least. Until the Great Lord himself said she was not. She had never heard of anyone being released once a mindtrap was set, but she would find a way. There was always a way for those who were cautious, while those fell who called caution cowardice. She herself had carried a few of that so-called brave sort to Shayol Ghul to be fitted with cour’souvra.


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 25 "Mindtrap" -- Moghedien point of view; with Moridin

Kimon
08-04-2011, 12:51 AM
Moghedien has already claimed as much.

Felix, she is not claiming that the DO has conquered a parallel world, she is suggesting the possibility that she might re-emerge into a future of her world already conquered by the DO.

FelixPax
08-04-2011, 02:16 AM
Felix, she is not claiming that the DO has conquered a parallel world, she is suggesting the possibility that she might re-emerge into a future of her world already conquered by the DO.


Have you thought about exactly what the Dark One does to a World conquered? A World transformed? A World taken by a true nightmare?


Think about the distinctions and effects between:


Fain-Mordeth-Sammael-Black Wind-Mashadar-The Creature
Dark One's World



Time and Dreams are two huge distinctions, differences.


It's a wheel, with third general constants--Dark One, Creator, Pattern(Parallel/Mirror). Yet Fain is not part of the Pattern nor is Fain connected to the Creator, nor the Dark One now.

Fain represents a change, a variation. A new force. Remember variations are allowed by the Wheel, according to RJ.

Oh, yes, the Dark One can and has conquered a World before. Like Fain, the Dark One can change a World to become like his own native World outside of the Pattern and the Creator. The Dark One is a change agent.


As long as memory exists in one soul, the Dark One cannot conquer all Worlds or places including vacuoles.

The Unreasoner
08-25-2011, 01:53 PM
Some thoughts inspired by a post by Felix, and the general points made in the double dawn thread. Essentially I am working on ideas withhin one of the theories, and I thought the following posts and points frame the issues pretty well.

Is Rand 'one with' humanity itself? Can the belief and faith of the people give him power? Maradon-level power? Does the Dragon have Tel'aran'rhiod-like abilities within the real world? If so, is the inherent link to the land based on the same principles that link the Dragon to T'A'R? What sort of power can the Dragon access? What is his endgame? Is this an endgame?

Rand is one with the land rather than the world. The depth of that connection doesn't change the fundamental fact that his association is with the land, not the entire planet.
I would agree that being one withe the planet itself seems a little off. But why not one with the consciousnesses? The Dragon has demonstrated the ability to sense them:
The land around him was flat and empty. A river flowed nearby, straight and broad, but he could sense there were no people within a hundred leagues. He was alone, as alone as a man could be while still alive, yet he could not escape memory.
And they are clearly discreet entities. In T'A'R, the world of fully actualized potentials, even Birgitte has the ability to sense them:
In the usual course I can find anyone who knows they are in the World of Dreams; there is a feel, like ripples spreading through the air from them. Or perhaps from their awareness; I do not know, really. I am a soldier, not a scholar.
In T'A'R, Rand might be able to "create" a world himself, and give life to/transfer the souls of the people that define the land.
Tel’aran’rhiod is The Grand Reflection of the Collective Consciousness. As Loial notes, every world has a certain degree of ‘awareness’, and it is that awareness that I feel is reflected. Although, each awareness is unique, and so is each Dreamwalker’s experience of T’A’R.
One caused by Dreaming, via Valan Luca creating Light by thought and imagination, after the 'World of Dream' and 'World of Flesh' have fully become One in the same on Earth. (Yes, A Mirror World become a Parallel World on Sunday. Seals are broken, then Dark One comes to try to finish the job.)
it is obviously possible for a soul to leave TAR and become corporeal through the Power of TAR.
It seems that some schools of thought within Randland ascribe to such a school of thought. The Aiel believe life is a dream, and the Amayar believe the world is illusion:
It seems the Amayar had prophecies that spoke of the Hand, and when it was destroyed, they believed this signaled the end of time, what they called the end of Illusion. They believed it was time for them to leave this . . . this illusion”—she laughed the word bitterly— “we call the world.”


The questions that remain are: Is Rand up for the task? Will such an act be 'unique'?
This wasn't the real location. It wasn't even the World of Dreams, that place where he'd fought Forsaken, the place he'd been told was so dangerous.(1) No, this was one of his own ordinary dreams. He controlled them now(2)...In that nameless valley below, sheltered in the Mountains of Mist, he'd begun a journey. Not his first, and not his last, but perhaps the most important.(3) One of the most painful, for certain. "And now I come back," he whispered. "I've changed again. A man is always changing.(4)" He felt a unity in returning here, to the place where he'd first confronted the killer inside him. The place where he'd first tried to flee from those whom he should have kept near.(5) He closed his eyes, enjoying tranquility. Calmness. Harmony.

1. Does Rand Sedai laugh at such a notion?
2. Control, and certainty. Perhaps he can make a New World after all.
3. A potential indicator for uniqueness?
4. Change. A good thing. More achievable in linear time?
5. Kept near...those who are part of him? Or do they simply need one another?

AbbeyRoad
08-25-2011, 05:10 PM
Fain represents a change, a variation. A new force.
Yes, we know. Fain is Agent Smith.

Zombie Sammael
08-25-2011, 05:24 PM
Yes, we know. Fain is Agent Smith.

Youngling Rep. Once I get round to changing my sig (sorry Unreasoner).

The Unreasoner
09-27-2011, 10:23 PM
When working on my other theories, my WoT metaphysics write-up, and in responding to other specific threads, I noticed that my other theories began to mutate and coalesce into one. The process behind the theory is almost as interesting as the theory itself.

Major thanks to Felix, Terez, Gonzo, and Tamyrlin.

I also want to recognize Zombie, the collective, confused, finssss, Rand al'Fain, and Davian.

Not everyone directly contributed to the theory itself. For instance, Felix and Terez had more direct and correlated influence. Gonzo and Tamyrlin contributed more by presenting a specific point I disagreed with, but was unable to say exactly why. In finding the why, my theory evolved.

But so I would like some feedback on the title my submitted theory should have. The working title is "Wheel of Time Eschatology." But, I also have:

My Reconciliation with Gareth Bryne

The ESC Couch: Inherently Evil

Blacksmith's Puzzles: The Fundamental Metaphor

Felix Was (Almost) Right All Along

The True Nature of the Reset Button