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Ishara
07-29-2011, 06:16 PM
To recap the concept:

First, pop over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5669) for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

(And remember: a new character of the week does preclude continuing discussion on past topics!)

This week, we'll be discussing: Fortuona Athaem Kore Paendrag.

Tuon is an enigma. She's one of the "hardest" characters we've ever encountered. Willing to take steps, to do whatever she has to do to survive. She's skilled in combat, in the courtly arts, can probably play a lyre while riding horseback and battling a grolm.

What's her modus operandi? What drives Tuon? What makes her tick? Was the ultimate goal always to be the Empress (may she live forever) or would she have stepped aside if "destiny" told her to?

Does she love Mat because she wants to, or because she thinks destiny has told her to? Does she even love him at all?

What are her real plans for the White Tower and the Aes Sedai? It seems fairly obvious after ToM, but do we think she'll surprise us? Will her connection and friendship with Setalle Anan change her mind more than she knows? Will she be willing to work with Rand or against him if he won't bend to her? Again, we seem to know the answer here, but what if Mat asks her to? leaves her if she doesn't?

Rand al'Fain
07-29-2011, 06:58 PM
She's probably the most complex character in the entire series, as she even gives very little away in her POVs. So really, it's hard to tell. But she is also rational and is willing to learn new things. So it certainly is not out of the question for her to come around and give her support to Rand, with the proper convincing anyways.

The Mardy Asha'man
07-29-2011, 08:40 PM
I think that despite her many flaws (the fact that she thinks slavery is acceptable to name one) she is genuinely a good person who wants to do good. I think she is incredibly misguided which leads her to make the wrong decisions like to continuation of the conquest of Randland but I don't think its a thirst for conquest or position, power and prominence in itself that drives her . She feels she is doing what she must to fight evil(the dark one).

I think the problem with the Seanchan in general is that we have no confirmation one way or the other whose following the truer prophecy (kneeling to the crystal thrown and all that jazz) or if it is just propaganda to give their (the seanchan dynasty) imperialism credence. With Aviendah's (really sorry is if spelt that wrong) trip through the ter'angreal it seems Rand might actually do it. Which begs the question how can he justify the peace of the Dragon knowing what it would mean for channelers given his mental state post VOG.

I cant help but let my own personal view get in the way of my discussion of her, but from what I have read both of her and of recent Rand I cant help but think she will be the one to bend not the other way round. I hope I'm not wrong because i cried at Avi's viewing (yes i'm a huge softy :))

jana
07-29-2011, 08:50 PM
I've always been under the impression that Rand will kneel to her, then after the gesture they will work together but Rand will show that it was just a gesture and he'll take charge. I still believe that. In Aviendha's trip through the ter'angreal, Rhuarc's son remembers that his father thought she was honorable.


I do think she's been too hard in the past two books. Maybe she's always been that way and I just didn't see it or want to see it, or maybe Brandon was a bit heavy handed with it. Her personality is too close to Suroth's, lately. The random displays of compassion (i.e. caring about Noal) are completely missing now.

I hope we get to read about her coming to the right decision with the damane, and I still think Setalle will have something to do with it.



As far as her plans with the White Tower, this isn't a good argument, but I feel almost certain they won't come to fruition because having three WT battles in as many books would be silly. Something is going to change her mind before that happens.

Enigma
07-30-2011, 12:39 PM
In many ways Tuon's views are alien compared to those of the characters from the Westlands. She supports slavery and damane but to be honest I doubt if that world view was ever challenged until she came to the Westlands with the Return. Throwing off the prejudices that one grows up with during one's formative years is really hard.

She is strong willed and that is part of her problem when it comes to changing her views. If she was not as strong willed she might change her world view a lot faster but she probably would not have survived long enougth in the position of heir. She is willing to adapt and the way she handled Beslan shows this.

Like a lot of Seanchan her views might be a bit warped but I think she seriously wants what is best for the people and she thinks that what is best for them is the order and stability that life as a subject to the empire could bring.

Nygma
07-30-2011, 06:18 PM
What's her modus operandi? What drives Tuon? What makes her tick? Was the ultimate goal always to be the Empress (may she live forever) or would she have stepped aside if "destiny" told her to?
I think Tuon is all about Right and Duty. Culturally, the Seanchan are big on Duty, but ambition is also a huge part of it. I get the feeling Tuon would step aside though if she thought it was the right thing to do.

Does she love Mat because she wants to, or because she thinks destiny has told her to? Does she even love him at all?
She thinks he's destined to be her husband, so she marries him "for the Empire". Love isn't part of that, though. I think she really does love him - there's her jealousy when Teslyn warns Mat about Joline; her concern when Mat looks sick on their ride; her "proprietary" air and attention when he gets cut up; her care of the rosebud cluster; and her annoyance at Edorion's "imaginings" when he notices her attention on Mat.

What are her real plans for the White Tower and the Aes Sedai? It seems fairly obvious after ToM, but do we think she'll surprise us? Will her connection and friendship with Setalle Anan change her mind more than she knows? Will she be willing to work with Rand or against him if he won't bend to her? Again, we seem to know the answer here, but what if Mat asks her to? leaves her if she doesn't?
I think her real plans, at least currently, are exactly what she says they are - to leash every last Aes Sedai and destroy the White Tower as both a stand-alone threat and ally of the Dragon.

I don't think Mat leaves her - he's too in love. Doesn't mean he won't end up on the other side of the field from her, though. Both of them will do what they think right, even if they regret the choice the other makes.

Setalle. Right now, I don't see how this friendship will influence her thoughts towards the White Tower. She doesn't even know Setalle is a former Aes Sedai, does she? Maybe Setalle's arguments will eventually weigh in with everything else towards making her reconsider leashing damane.

Tuon's big on omens. I think she'll eventually be willing to work with Rand, but he'll have to either convince her that her prophecies are Ishmael's work or he'll have to bow. The prophecies demand it! :D

(My bet is on zen-Rand bowing.)

jana
07-30-2011, 06:32 PM
Setalle. Right now, I don't see how this friendship will influence her thoughts towards the White Tower. She doesn't even know Setalle is a former Aes Sedai, does she?

The theory is based on her finding out that Setalle was an Aes Sedai, or perhaps her getting healed (though I don't think burning out can be healed but that's a conversation for another topic). I think Setalle is probably Tuon's only friend, unless you count Mat or Selucia. She hasn't really ever had another opportunity to make friends. Setalle might be the only person she's ever had a real conversation with. Everyone else is stationed below her. Her time in Ebou Dar and the menagerie is probably the only time she's ever not been "under the veil." Of all the people for Tuon to befriend it's a former channeler. I just think there has to be a reason that it was Setalle.


Tuon's big on omens. I think she'll eventually be willing to work with Rand, but he'll have to either convince her that her prophecies are Ishmael's work or he'll have to bow. The prophecies demand it! :D

(My bet is on zen-Rand bowing.)

Agreed.

The Unreasoner
07-30-2011, 07:33 PM
(My bet is on zen-Rand bowing.)

I see this too, much as would rather it not be the case. Especially considering the nature of ta'veren: impossible is still impossible. If Darth Rand couldn't extort even a simple alliance from the Imperial Heir, I doubt Rand Sedai will attempt to get a bow from an Empress (though he might be able to now).

Nygma
07-30-2011, 09:19 PM
I think Setalle is probably Tuon's only friend, unless you count Mat or Selucia. She hasn't really ever had another opportunity to make friends. Setalle might be the only person she's ever had a real conversation with.
Interesting. I hadn't considered how unique Setalle would rate as a real friend. I can see that.

Zombie Sammael
07-31-2011, 04:59 AM
Tuon's big on omens. I think she'll eventually be willing to work with Rand, but he'll have to either convince her that her prophecies are Ishmael's work or he'll have to bow. The prophecies demand it! :D

(My bet is on zen-Rand bowing.)

Although zen-Rand bowing is probably more likely at this point, there is a lot more drama and conflict involved in the revelation that the Seanchan have been manipulated by Ishamael. Why, such a revelation could cause them to question their entire culture in much the same way as the Aiel were forced to. Such a revelation might force re-examination of even long-standing institutions to do with the One Power, for example....

GonzoTheGreat
07-31-2011, 05:16 AM
Tuon's big on omens. I think she'll eventually be willing to work with Rand, but he'll have to either convince her that her prophecies are Ishmael's work or he'll have to bow. The prophecies demand it! :D

(My bet is on zen-Rand bowing.)An alternative is that she accepts Mat as her representative, and lets Rand and Mat work something out. This might mean that Mat becomes her co-ruler; the first Seanchan Emperor since Luthair, but I am sure that she can live with that, if it is necessary. Mat won't like it, but then, he needn't be told until after the job has been foisted upon him.

kivo
07-31-2011, 10:20 AM
I see this too, much as would rather it not be the case. Especially considering the nature of ta'veren: impossible is still impossible. If Darth Rand couldn't extort even a simple alliance from the Imperial Heir, I doubt Rand Sedai will attempt to get a bow from an Empress (though he might be able to now).

I wonder if the Prince of the Ravens is an extension of the Crystal Throne as is the Empress... could Rand bow to Mat and that count? Perhaps when Rand formally turns command over the armies of the Light to Mat.

The Unreasoner
07-31-2011, 06:54 PM
In the eyes of Fortuona, the DotNM is equal in power to the Dragon and above the Prince of Ravens...so no bowing to Mat. Unless Rand really runs with all of the humility implied by servant of all.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-01-2011, 03:19 AM
Why does Fortune always smile at Mat?
Because she's afraid to turn her back on him.



ba-dum-tshhhh

Tuon, to me is... one of the most boring characters that gets consistent POV's. I'm not even sure why she doesn't "click" for me seeing as on paper she should be really really awesome. Perhaps it's her difficulties with overcoming her cultural background in order to function in a world where there's sometimes dirt and people have to touch things. And talk. Gasp! The fact that she does overcome a little of it, speaks well of her character but the amount that she's simply not willing to even contemplate is... staggering.

*removed a character-attack on her from here* see? I CAN self-edit. sometimes.

Heinz
08-01-2011, 05:59 PM
Since Tuon was first introduced as the Daughter of the Nine Moons, and Mat's answer that he will marry the Daughter already known, I have often wondered if Rand's bow to the Crystal Throne would be one of respect for Mat's wife, not subservience. I did not think the mentions of the Dragon bowing said exactly how, though perhaps I'm wrong on that.

Another possibility has occurred to me. Fortuona delayed her official coronation until after her meeting with the Dragon, because the Daughter and the Dragon could meet eye to eye. But the Empress, in her point of view, must be 'above' the Dragon. Pre-VoG Rand, of course, would never have allowed her that elevation. Post-VoG Rand, however, might. Therefore, his bowing may simply be the requirement to begin talks on a treaty that will see them allied for the Last Battle. As I think on it, that is probably the most likely.

It all hinges around the treatment of Channelers though. I had hoped Fortuona changing her mind on slavery and damane would have come about already, with just one book to go. I really feel like this issue would have to be addressed if there was to be any lasting peace after TG, and with how her stance is as of ToM, I don't see Fortuona plausibly changing it that quickly. But my thoughts on that are two-fold.

1)I don't think hardly anyone expects this to end 'happily ever after', and the world will still be full of political division. Clearly, we've even had a viewing from Nicola on this. The Seanchan Return and Rand-land situation, not to mention the situation in Seanchan as well, are just another possibility for the battles that the world is not yet done with, to paraphrase.

2) IF the slavery/damane issue is to be settled, I long thought that Mat would be at the core of it. I still think that. But what I also would find interesting, is if Setalle was either revealed as a stilled Aes Sedai and was able to pull influence, or better yet (but still debated of its possibility I know, yet it would have more shock impact) Setalle is Healed and confronts Fortuona along with Mat on the issue.

Zombie Sammael
08-01-2011, 07:10 PM
1)I don't think hardly anyone expects this to end 'happily ever after', and the world will still be full of political division. Clearly, we've even had a viewing from Nicola on this. The Seanchan Return and Rand-land situation, not to mention the situation in Seanchan as well, are just another possibility for the battles that the world is not yet done with, to paraphrase.

2) IF the slavery/damane issue is to be settled, I long thought that Mat would be at the core of it. I still think that. But what I also would find interesting, is if Setalle was either revealed as a stilled Aes Sedai and was able to pull influence, or better yet (but still debated of its possibility I know, yet it would have more shock impact) Setalle is Healed and confronts Fortuona along with Mat on the issue.

On the healing of Setalle Anan (there are a range of quotes, but this is one of the most commonly cited):

The [second] question was if burned out channelers could be Healed as severed or stilled channelers could. His answer, paraphrased because I wasn't recording and I was laughing at what he wrote was: "Nynaeve thinks that there is nothing that cannot be Healed. She was right about Healing stilling and she is on the right track." But he didn't confirm or deny or RAFO whether burned out channelers could or could not be Healed.

However, in relation to the freeing of damane, I've been working on an idea that the a'dam collar could be rendered useless by transforming it into cuendillar. The issue, I think, is that even if Tuon did an about face, there would still be plenty of nobles and former Sul'dam in Seanchan who might not see eye to eye with her and would go on collaring channelers, possibly surreptitiously. There would also exist the possibility that if Tuon died unexpectedly or otherwise failed in changing views, the next Empress could just change the rules back again. For this reason, I felt it would be necessary not only to free the damane but also to destroy all of the known a'dam. If it could be made useless by transformation into cuendillar, this would also be a good way for the Aes Sedai to overcome any collared channelers they faced in battle. There's also some possibility, based on the apparent quantum theory basis on which the a'dam works, that doing this to one collar might actually cause it to happen to all collars! This last might seem far-fetched, but it does seem some method of both freeing the damane and destroying the a'dam will be necessary in order to resolve the damane problem.

Enigma
08-02-2011, 08:39 AM
Melting it down would seem a lot simpler that transforming the a'dam into cuendillar. The male version could not be melted but it was a form of cuendillar. As far as the female versions go, they are ordinary metal.

If its revealed that the sul'dam can learn to channell that should also help simply because the blood will not really trust the sul'dam any more and holding damane requires someone to control them. If you don't trust the people who are their handlers then the system becomes untenable and has to be reworked.

Heinz
08-02-2011, 11:08 AM
I followed some of a thread discussing/debating the potential for Setalle to be Healed. I can't remember if I chimed in on it or not, but basically at this point I feel like there would be little reason to introduce that if it is possible other than just having another random Channeler for the good guys at the Last Battle. Unless, of course, she had a specific role to perform with Fortuona and the Seanchan.

That is a thought though, with the a'dam being destroyed one way or another, and/or the sul'dam being revealed. We've known about the sul'dam for so long, I didn't even think about it. Fortuona brushes aside this by saying 'I choose not to Channel like I choose not to kill babies' or something thereabouts. Yet I wonder how non-Channeling Blood would feel about that sentiment? Galgan (sp?) especially. That sul'dam plotline has simmered for so long, it'll be interesting to see if that comes to a full boil.

IIRC, there are captured sul'dam (as well as damane) in both Caemlyn and Tar Valon, so no matter where the Seanchan end up they may come face-to-face with Channeling sul'dam? Or is it just damane in the Tower?

JOS
08-02-2011, 11:35 AM
If it’s revealed that the sul'dam can learn to channel that should also help simply because the blood will not really trust the sul'dam any more and holding damane requires someone to control them. If you don't trust the people who are their handlers then the system becomes untenable and has to be reworked.

I think this hits the nail on the head, they leashed channelers because they were enemies that they didn't trust. It was an act of self preservation and fear. POV's from Tuon and other Seanchan show that they expect marath'damane to be drunk with power and a challenge to any and all kingdoms. So widespread knowledge that Sul'dam are marath'damane would break the system. But then what? All channelers are still enemies and are still feared.

Something drastic will have to happen to change this point of view. While they treat their damane as animals, the truth is, they are enemies capable of taking over the world. Even if all the a'dam in the world are destroyed, channelers are still the greatest threat to the Empire. Look at what Rand and his Black Tower friends did to them while defending Illian. If they can no longer enslave channelers, they will instinctively want to destroy them. This can't be done well without the One Power. So loss of trust in Sul'dam is the end of the Seanchan Empire as we know it.

What has to happen to save Seanchan, is a new view of channelers. Tuon has made some headway on seeing marath'damane as human, mostly due to the discovery that Sul'dam could channel. She is still in denial, and may change with Mat's and Setalle's help, (edit) but if she is the only Seanchan to see this, it does not solve the problem (See Heinz and Zombie's comments on this).

I think this leaves us with four likely options for the end of Seanchan enslavement of/war with channelers:

1. Pattern Throws a Curve Ball: Remember Rand fighting Ishmael over Falme? The pattern projected this to build belief and subdue false dragons. Something of similar magnitude, and greater importance that proves Aes Sedai are not enemies will need to occur. A projection across the globe during the last battle, something like Aes Sedai falling in battle to protect the Prince of the Ravens and the Dragon at Shayl Ghul. It has to be some sort of selfless act by channelers that is so powerful that it cannot be ignored.

2. Access Denied: When the DO's prison is sealed, the counterstroke severs all channelers and kills most. Problem solved. Ushers in an age with no channeling. Based on Avienda's viewing in the columns, this is not likely.

3. The Way of the Leaf: Um, this will solve all problems. Not sure how, but it will. You will see.

4. Bound by Oath: Rand Sedai kneels before the Crystal Throne and willingly submits to serve the Empire. Others follow, and all Aes Sedai, male and female, are bound as servants of the Empire and the World. The oath rod could be used to do this, as the Seanchan do not trust the oaths of foreigners.

There are issues with all of these ideas, but if Seanchan is to survive without Damane and Sul'dam (the confrontation is inevitable in my opinion) something big needs to happen. Maybe the Empire will implode and get wiped out, but I doubt it.

jana
08-02-2011, 11:47 AM
Tuon has made some headway on seeing marath'damane as human and to some extent as friends

I think you're confusing a dream with words that have actually been written down. Or maybe you're confusing Egeanin with Tuon. Tuon has made no friends with marath'damane (to any extent).

GonzoTheGreat
08-02-2011, 11:52 AM
The Seanchan could do the same thing the Whitecloaks did in Amadicia: outlaw all channelers, kill them when found.

Heinz
08-02-2011, 11:55 AM
Tuon has made no friends with marath'damane (to any extent).

That depends on how she would view Setalle as a Burned Out 'marath'damane' who used to be Aes Sedai.

JOS
08-02-2011, 12:25 PM
I think you're confusing a dream with words that have actually been written down. Or maybe you're confusing Egeanin with Tuon. Tuon has made no friends with marath'damane (to any extent).

You're right, my Ebu Dari timeline is fritzed, I confused some of Tuon's interactions at court post-invasion with some pre-invasion interactions at court. I will need to revisit it. You could have pointed this out without an inflammatory tone though, that was completely unnecessary . . .

Setalle will be important, it is the only reason to keep her around. That means that Egeanin will probably be helpful in some way to sway the Seanchan, as she has the first hand experience with "good" marath'damane. This is improbable now that she is disgraced though. Mat remains the best conduit between Tuon and the rest of the non-Blood world. But more than just Tuon needs convincing that channelers are not just rabid dogs.

Which was my real point, even if Tuon decided to stop leashing channelers, it would not change the way the rest of the Blood think about them.

The Seanchan could do the same thing the Whitecloaks did in Amadicia: outlaw all channelers, kill them when found.

They could try, but the channelers are a lot more established in the rest of Randland than they ever were in Amadicia.

jana
08-02-2011, 02:52 PM
You're right, my Ebu Dari timeline is fritzed, I confused some of Tuon's interactions at court post-invasion with some pre-invasion interactions at court. I will need to revisit it. You could have pointed this out without an inflammatory tone though, that was completely unnecessary . . .

I don't know how a confused timeline would change anything. She hasn't had a single friendly interaction with a marath'damane unless you count Setalle (and she can't be counted since Tuon has no idea she used to channel). Or are you including damane? Also, you edited it to take out the friend part, but kept in that she thinks of them as human. I don't remember her thinking of them as human either.

and I can't have anything but an inflammatory tone right now. I have bronchitis. *slaps knee*

JOS
08-02-2011, 04:19 PM
I can't have anything but an inflammatory tone right now. I have bronchitis. *slaps knee*

Probably a permanent problem, oh well.

You are stuck on the point so let me clarify, I edited out the friend part because it was wrong, but spending time in camp with Aes Sedai, Setalle, and Mat does have an influence on how she sees those that channel. Tuon sees herself as one that chooses not to channel, but this would mean that the channelers choose to channel in her mind. Last time I checked, choice based on values is a primarily human function. Do you want some quotes with that? They might be hard to swallow with bronchitis...


For the second time, this was Not a major part of my post, and it is just silly to dwell on it.

jana
08-02-2011, 05:04 PM
Probably a permanent problem, oh well.

You are stuck on the point so let me clarify, I edited out the friend part because it was wrong, but spending time in camp with Aes Sedai, Setalle, and Mat does have an influence on how she sees those that channel. Tuon sees herself as one that chooses not to channel, but this would mean that the channelers choose to channel in her mind. Last time I checked, choice based on values is a primarily human function. Do you want some quotes with that? They might be hard to swallow with bronchitis...


For the second time, this was Not a major part of my post, and it is just silly to dwell on it.

It's the most important part, imo. Or at least the part that interests me most. I think it's vitally important in how this is going to get resolved. It's why it will be difficult to resolve.

The reason this is an issue is because Tuon, who is probably the most open-minded of the Seanchan higher-ups, has not changed her mind one bit even though she was surrounded by marath'damane who didn't do anything to harm her. I don't believe her time with them changed her opinion on the matter in the least but I'm open to reading the evidence.

It doesn't matter whether choice is a human function. All that matters is Tuon's opinion. She treats them as not-human so to her they aren't human. The whole choice comment is just to make herself feel better. I doubt she's going to dwell on the fact that choice makes them human, because that makes them closer to her. I don't recall one instance where she treats them as humans. She's disgusted at the thought of Nynaeve being near her. She is kind to channelers when they're leashed and safe.

That's why Setalle is so important. (And possibly Hawkwing with the Horn but I never liked that idea). I think she's one of the only ways Tuon will change her mind. There's another (crappy) option of her getting collared, but I hope to God that doesn't happen.

The Unreasoner
08-02-2011, 05:24 PM
I wonder what the Empress is to the common people. Is she like a god? I can't see Galgan worshiping, but Turak was surprisingly reverent and devoted. If she is seen as a god, she might be able to get away with channeling herself, sort of like Masema's views on Rand channeling.

More plausible though, I would think, would be some sort of Imperial absolution, Tuon claiming she "cleansed the damane free of sin", something like that.

Definitely some issues are on the horizon with male channelers. The Seanchan will likely want some to even the scales, but the male a'dam is far less reliable. They might just continue killing them, but a rise in opposing male channelers devoid of madness should convince the hyperpragmatic military of their safety, and the lack of means to adequately control them could be seen as an omen that all leashing is bad.

jana
08-02-2011, 05:40 PM
I wonder what the Empress is to the common people. Is she like a god? I can't see Galgan worshiping, but Turak was surprisingly reverent and devoted. If she is seen as a god, she might be able to get away with channeling herself, sort of like Masema's views on Rand channeling.

More plausible though, I would think, would be some sort of Imperial absolution, Tuon claiming she "cleansed the damane free of sin", something like that.

This is the other big thing. Once she realizes she was wrong, she has to convince the others not to murder her in her sleep. I think having Mat around will be helpful. I wonder who she'll put in charge when they go back to Seanchan. I hope we find that out. But there are lots of things I hope we find out that we won't :P

JOS
08-02-2011, 06:45 PM
This is the other big thing. Once she realizes she was wrong, she has to convince the others not to murder her in her sleep. I think having Mat around will be helpful. I wonder who she'll put in charge when they go back to Seanchan. I hope we find that out. But there are lots of things I hope we find out that we won't :P

Much more likely that they try to murder her in her sleep than leash her. It is the Seanchan way. The crappy thing for the Blood in this case is that knocking off Tuon won't solve the problem of Sul'dam being able to channel. My money is on Galgan as a potential assassin.

The Unreasoner
08-02-2011, 10:11 PM
Much more likely that they try to murder her in her sleep than leash her. It is the Seanchan way. The crappy thing for the Blood in this case is that knocking off Tuon won't solve the problem of Sul'dam being able to channel. My money is on Galgan as a potential assassin.

A theory of mine:
8. Galgan will be killed by Beslan when galgan attempts to assassinate Tuon.

FelixPax
08-04-2011, 01:12 AM
A theory of mine:

Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
8. Galgan will be killed by Beslan when galgan attempts to assassinate Tuon.


Guess we have very different concepts of who General Galgan is, and who Galgan was draw from in terms of 'character parallels'.


Galgan is a very flexible and popular leader, who ultimate is a parallel ironically of South Carolina's own Strom Thurmond (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strom_Thurmond): Former USA Senator, SC Governor, General, Judge, Lawyer, 3rd party candidate for President in 1948.


Question: Will Galgan ultimately SUPPORT the unleashing of damane? Or not?


Can General Galgan belatedly accept, Fortuona's husband Mat Cauthon's move to unleash the damane offers a greater chance for survival than seeking to keep them leashed. Why? To double his military's force multiplier immediately.

Is Galgan flexible enough to accept social change to survive, rather that a sure death?

(Before ToM was published, I took one point of view of Galgan's damane lendings, to leash or unleash? Now I'm far more hesitant and uncertain.)


Who among the Seanchan threatens Fortuona security & life?



The Bloody Seanchan Army, the regular military. (KoD book)
Lord Turak's former Seeker Mor, who is most likely his former Hand. When Renna's body is finally found, Tuon is in deep trouble.
The rumors Semirhage planned about Tuon among the Seanchan Commoners (KoD book)
The false story Matrim Cauthon planted about Tuon, Selucia among the Showfolk.
Alivia, who wants revenge against Sul'dam. Tuon is a Sul'dam.
Graendal's planted strings to encircle and influence Empress Fortuona (ToM, Epilogue)
Any Seanchan plan to overthrow the rule of Fortuona, needs to replace Beslan's Noble House. Thus, the Altaran House of Todande is likely to be a party in a mutiny against Fortuona & Beslan (LoC, Chapter 48). Say from Seeker Mor plans....




Regarding Beslan's future, how about these predictions:


He will meet Moghedien
He will see Snow. Quickly loathing it.
He will marry 'Her Illumined Majesty, Tenobia si Bashere Kazadi, Shield of the North and Sword of the Blightborder, High Seat of House Kazadi, Lady of Shahayni, Asnelle, Kunwar and Ganai'
He will honor his mother's Tylin Quintara Mitsobar request, to become a friend of Matrim Cauthon.
He will offer this support for an awkward plural marriage involving a bunch of women (4+), Rand and Mat Cauthon. Why? To end a war peaceful, so to fight against a greater enemy--The Shadow.
He will honor his Oath to Empress Fortuona, yet this very Oath will push great conflict in Beslan upon learning of Fortuona's Treaty with Mat Cauthon & his 'followers'. A Treaty which gives Mat Cauthon authority and power over the whole Seanchan Empire. Beslan will grasp this fact quickly.
He will know Mat Cauthon will offer his People, freedom and security.
He will meet on Tar Valon island, once again: Valan Luca, Thom, Juilin, Elayne, Aviendha, Birgitte, Teslyn, Joline, Edesina, Chel Vanin, Setalle Anan.
He will have a meeting of minds, with General Gareth Bryce. Each will roll the dice and risk their very lives on Matrim Cauthon's Treaty with Fortuona.
He will
If necessary, Beslan's soldiers, Deathwatch Guard, and the Gardeners will fight to the last man to protect Fortuona's life.
He will seek to free all Seanchan captured female channelers.
He will live up to his Altara Titles: by the Grace of the Light, King of Altara, Master of the Four Winds, Guardian of the Sea of Storms, High Seat of House Mitsobar.
He will seek to protect the Four Winds, the Four Ta'verens: Rand al'Thor, Perrin, Matrim Cauthon, Valan Luca.
He will be unable ultimately to stop Perrin from being killed by the 'Towers of Midnight'
He and Olver will seek to win at 'Snakes and Foxes'. ;) (WH, Ch.30)

FelixPax
08-04-2011, 01:26 AM
Considering this particular thread topic on Fortuona, perhaps this unpublished five page essay I drafted ten months ago will be of aid? Your thoughts, fellow readers?




----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


At times Fortuona's character reminds me, of parallels between the USA Military's Desegregation of Race under Harry S. Truman's Executive Orders (http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/desegregation/large/index.php?action=chronology) and Fortuona's ability to do the same within the Seanchan Empire’s policies of differential treatment of damane, sul'dam.


Truman used military policy as a push towards broader integration regardless of race. In Fortuona’s situation under Seanchan norms the Empress controls the majority of damane in the Empire and is the Executive ultimately in charge of the military; she can push for broader social integration of all channelers.


If one of Fortuona's parallels is Harry S. Truman role as an executive, who is to play his opposition's prime role? Perhaps the Seanchan High Blood General Lunal Galgan is a parallel of Stroud Thurmond (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strom_Thurmond). Who led the Dixiecrat Party in 1948? Strom Thurmond. Who headed the fight against many of Harry S. Truman’s policies? Strom Thurmond. Where was Strom Thurmond from? South Carolina, the very same State which Robert Jordan lived.


Strom retired as a Major General in rank, while Lunal Galgan is a Captain General in rank as of KoD book;
Strom was a Lietenant Colonel in 82nd Airborne during USA Battle at Normandy, while Lunal Galgan has created plans to invasion Illian with air support from to'raken (KoD, Prologue);
Strom was a Governor of South Carolina while Galgan militarily governed Amadicia & Altara;
Strom as Governor made South Carolina State Government more transparent & accountable, while Lunal Galgan gives his military officers leeway and ended "excessive ceremony" because "hindered efficiency" (KoD, Prologue);
Strom was pro-segregation while Galgan family ancestors were among the first to support Luthair Paendrag (e.g. Ishamael corrupted) in Seanchan (See KoD, Prologue);
Strom broken from the Democratic Party to head the Dixiecrat Party in attempt to become President of the USA in 1948, while Lunal Galgan has sought to become Emperor of the Seanchan Empire (KoD, Epilogue - Suroth pov)
Strom opposed the USA Supreme Courts ‘Miranda Ruling’ (you have the right to remain silent) as aiding criminals, while Lunal Galgan like most Seanchan High Blood employs Seekers to force suspects to speak or else;
Strom once was a Eleventh Circuit judge ( http://www.strom.clemson.edu/strom/bio.html ), while Lunal Galgan has the judical power to overthrow Fortuona as Empress, as a fellow High Blood with a force of newly gained Shaido Aiel damane to enforce his judicial findings if need be. If Galgan finds evidence Fortuona is a channeler, by definition under Seanchan commoner customs she'd be a damane not an Empress.




What other parallels are there between Fortuona/Tuon and former USA President Harry S. Truman?


Harry S. Truman survived an assassination ( http://www.trumanlibrary.org/trivia/assassin.htm ) attempt in 1952, while Tuon as a child growing up survived a series of assassination attempts against her life.
Harry S. Truman trained and was elected to lead an artillery unit in WWI, while Fortuona allowed by her mother the Empress to become trained as sul’dam, and was picked to oversee Rhyagelle.
Harry S. Truman oversaw the defeat of Japan in WWII, while Tuon oversaw the defeat of three south nation-states: Tarabon, Amadicia, Altara. Each leader had within their hands a huge naval set of forces.
Harry S. Truman helped to improve the Kansas City metro region with Public Works in the 1930s, while Tuon has stabled Ebou Dar & has specific sought to improve the Rahad.
Harry S. Truman in 1940 survived a “bitter, mud-slinging campaign” to be re-elected to the US Senate, while Tuon survived a full scale misinformation campaign by Suroth & Semirhage, only re-gain her leadership position in Ebou Dar (KoD Prologue).
Harry S. Truman unlike every USA President since 1897 never graduated college, while Tuon never fully graduated sul’dam school unlike other pupils.
Harry S. Truman had relatively little communication Roosevelt administration before becoming President, while Tuon was cut-off from communication with the Seanchan for a long period of time (WH, Ch. 31 to KoD, Epilogue).
Harry S. Truman was an avid walker, while Tuon favorites the same next to Mat Cauthon (CoT, Ch.28). Likewise Tuon’s sul’dam and damane are regularly exercised, by avid walking.
Harry S. Truman advocated for national healthcare ( http://www.trumanlibrary.org/anniversaries/healthprogram.htm) in the USA, while Tuon has taught all of her personal damane the healing weaves gained from Mylen ( http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/s/sheraine_caminelle.html) (KoD, Ch. 25 – Mat Cauthon pov).



Fortuona allow the Altara nobility and commoners a large degree of freedom under King Beslan leadership (TGS), which is similar to Harry S. Truman actions & words:

"Once a government is committed to the principle of silencing the voice of opposition, it has only one way to go, and that is down the path of increasingly repressive measures, until it becomes a source of terror to all its citizens and creates a country where everyone lives in fear "

Fortuona specifically allowed the native Altara opposition to speak—Beslan—and Fortuona decided to avoid a war of terror within Altara against the ruling class. Tuon by stopping Selucia actions allowed Egeanin/Leilwin to live, even after speaking a truth Tuon does not want exposed:

“What secret?” Mat asked.
The woman hesitated, for some reason, frowning at Domon’s chest. Finally she sighed. “Renna was leashed, once. So were Bethamin and Seta. They can channel. Or maybe learn to; I don’t know. But the a’dam worked on those three. Maybe it works on any sul’dam.” Mat whistled through his teeth. Now, that would be a kick in the head for the Seanchan.


Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 29 ‘Something Flickers’ – Mat Cauthon point of view; with Tuon, Selucia, Egeanin, Bayle Doman, Teslyn, Valan Luca, Latelle Luca, Juilin, Amathera
Tuon considers Egeanin a traitor, and yet Tuon allows her a voice; a voice which can threaten Tuon’s own legitimacy within the Seanchan Empire.

Seanchan held lands are in the midst of the effects of a war induced inflation cycle (e.g. Horse & Food prices), which paralleled the inflation and scarcity of war materials in the USA during and shortly after WWII.


Unknown possible further future comparisons:


Harry S. Truman had a grave decision make, about whether or not to drop the Atom Bomb on Japan aid the ending of the War in the Pacific, similarly Empress Fortuona is going to need to decide whether or not to support the Dragon Reborn and her husband against the Shadow soon. Will Fortuona approve a new breaking of Earth, so to end the War against Shadowspawn for once across the globe and all worlds?
Harry S. Truman supported the creation of the United Nations, while Empress Fortuona with her husband Mat Cauthon can aid creation a new Pact between Westlands nations. Cauthon-Paendrag Treaty.
Harry S. Truman had the power to pardon, exercise use of executive clemency, issue proclamations as US President. He did grant 1,913 individual pardons ( http://www.trumanlibrary.org/trivia/pardons.htm ) and four blank pardons. In Empress Fortuona’s case, she has the ability to pardon Egeanin’s crimes against Seanchan law: desertion from her Seanchan military post, giving aid to kidnapping the heir to the Empire, kidnapping two Aes Sedai Damane, and freeing a sul’dam from an a’dam who had been found to be a channeler. Mat Cauthon’s own thoughts suggestion as much too (TofM).
Harrry S. Truman dismissal of General Douglas MacArthur was among one of the more politically unpopular decisions of his presidential administration, and I suspect Empress Fortuona is going to be placed in a similar is regarding to General Lunal Galgan. Will Galgan express publicly his disagreements with the new Empress or will he attempt to overthrow her and attempt to become Emperor? Can General Galgan and his supporters accept a compromise between Empress Fortuona and Aes Sedai following her husband Matrim Cauthon?




I do not find it at all unusual to suspect that Robert Jordan might have borrowed some aspects of Harry S. Truman background and historical events to help form a heroic character, in the person of Tuon—Empress Fortuona. Truman himself was a Southerner, from Missouri. Truman ( http://www.trumanlibrary.org/lifetimes/manhood.htm ) like Robert Jordan was a free mason. I’d find it difficult to believe a Free Mason of Robert Jordan’s generation growing up would not know that Brother and former President Harry S. Truman was a Master Mason ( http://www.pagrandlodge.org/mlam/presidents/truman.html )—later was “made 33° Sovereign Grand Inspector General and an Honorary Member of the supreme council at the Supreme Council A.A.S.R. Southern Jurisdiction Headquarters in Washington D.C..”. Truman is not the only Missourian, who was a Free Mason, whom Robert Jordan likely respected—the writer Mark Twain, was a Missourian, whom some ( http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/fiction/twain.html ) believe or claim ( http://www.psrh79.com/history.php ) a Free Mason. Yes, Twain was one of Robert Jordan favorite authors, and Twain also wrote an adoption of the King Arthur legends called “A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court”. In any case, there is at least one award ( http://www.msana.com/twainaward/about.html ) named after Mark Twain among some Free Masons.

Nor do I, see it as unusual to consider that a native Charleston, South Carolina writer might borrow aspects of Strom Thurmond background, varied careers, and long political service as raw material to create a Seanchan character in opposition to Tuon—Empress Fortuona policies. Is there a more famous or legendary South Carolina politician in the 20th Century on a national level, other than Strom Thurmond?

Ishara
08-04-2011, 08:51 AM
Well Felix, I can't speak to your comparison's to Truman, but I do like the mention of Tuon's "mercy" towards Egeanin.

One of the reasons that I've never particularly warmed to Tuon/ Fortuona is that she just seems so very black and white. There is very little grey in her world and that's because she wants it that way and is used to getting it. Perhaps I'm being black and white myself, but I always felt that letting Egeanin live, especially under the name of Leilwin, was a cruelty. It was malicious that she just let her hang there, stripping her of status but denying her the death she beleived she deserved. Egeanin deserves better than that, and Tuon treated her like crap because she was spiteful.

Personally, while I'd like to say that I can see her changing her mind and ways and coming to see channelers as people and not animals, I simply don't. It requires too large a shift for her to make inher own head, and as the head of state, for us to see before aMoL is completed. Maybe we would have seen a gradual shift in the outriggers, but now I'd say not. Which leaves us to wonder if that will be a dealbreaker for Mat, given his sister, and his childhood friends, nevermind the other positive relationships he's forged with channelers.

GonzoTheGreat
08-04-2011, 09:08 AM
Which leaves us to wonder if that will be a dealbreaker for Mat, given his sister, and his childhood friends, nevermind the other positive relationships he's forged with channelers.Cute, isn't it? He has to choose between being a nobleman or having lots of channelers as his friends. Really the kind of choice Mat has been searching for.

Zombie Sammael
08-04-2011, 09:10 AM
One of the reasons that I've never particularly warmed to Tuon/ Fortuona is that hse justseems so very black and white. There is very little grey in her world and that's because she wants it that way and is used to getting it. Perhaps I'm being black and white myself, but I always felt that letting Egeanin live, especially under the name of Leilwin, is a cruelty. It was malicious that she just let her hang there, stripping her of status but denying her the death she beleived she deserved. Egeanin deserves better than that, and Tuon treated her like crap because she was spiteful.

I think there's an interesting parallel between Tuon's treatment of Egeanin and Rand's treatment of Colavaere(sp). Rand's sentence was a desperate attempt at saving her from death which backfired and caused her to commit suicide. Tuon's sentence was an attempt to shame Egeanin worse than death, which backfired and led to her living a different, free, life. It might also be the case that we're predisposed to view Tuon's actions in a negative light because she is Seanchan, and a sul'dam at that, while we tend to view Rand positively because he's the hero. Still, they are two eminently comparable situations which highlight the very strong comparison that exists between Tuon and Rand.

JOS
08-04-2011, 10:21 AM
Cute, isn't it? He has to choose between being a nobleman or having lots of channelers as his friends. Really the kind of choice Mat has been searching for.

I think he would decide to step outside the pattern for a bit of a breather if faced with that choice.

Ishara
08-04-2011, 10:34 AM
I think there's an interesting parallel between Tuon's treatment of Egeanin and Rand's treatment of Colavaere(sp). Rand's sentence was a desperate attempt at saving her from death which backfired and caused her to commit suicide. Tuon's sentence was an attempt to shame Egeanin worse than death, which backfired and led to her living a different, free, life. It might also be the case that we're predisposed to view Tuon's actions in a negative light because she is Seanchan, and a sul'dam at that, while we tend to view Rand positively because he's the hero. Still, they are two eminently comparable situations which highlight the very strong comparison that exists between Tuon and Rand.

I see parallels, sure. But I'm not sure that you compare the two when the actual intent behind the actions was so different, as well as the outcome. It seems to me to be comparing apples and oranges Both round fruit, but other than that similarities end.

One of the reasons Rand can be endearing (at least at that stage in the series) is that he cares. He tries. He wants to help others and he feels bad when he can't. However misguided his attempt to punish Colavere and leave her with something, he did it with positive intentions.

Tuon also cares, but she acts out of a sense of duty and obligation that I just can't get behind. It's too paternalistic for me - cut off the hand of the thief so that he learns to never steal again. Rand would would want to give the thief bread so that he didn't need to steal. When Tuon feels bad, it's because she feels that she's failed her people, and I can commisserate, because whol likes failing?, but her motives are not good when it comes to Egeanin. She isn't acting out of a sense of paternalistic attitude of "this is for your own good" that we've seen her adopt in the past. She's spiteful and she's acting the exact same way she did when she had the damane beaten on the ship for telling her her future. Taking her anger and frustration out on someone so much weaker than she that she as well have squashed an ant.

I *get* that's young, and young people can do mean and spiteful things, but I don't see that as a barrier to behaving nobly (with a small "n"). ALL the girls are young. Aside from a few (admittedly, notable) excpetions, their spiteful actions didn't have the real outcome of hurting, harming, or degrading others on purpose.

Not to mention the fact that Tuon's upbringing as being the Hand that guides her people is at odds with abusing those same people - and she acknowledges that it is abuse. She acknowledges that having the damane beaten is different than "training" methods. She knows (and we know she knows) that by "allowing" Egeanin to live, but effectively preventing her from suiciding to save face, she has condemned her forever. To call it a free life is disingenuous I think. Egeanin/ Leilwin doesn't see it as free. She may change her life and be grateful for it later, and if that happens, awesome. But now? We may not be able to fully understand, but she feels that she would be better off dead, and that her ongoing life is a punishment from which she can never escape. I think that to twist Tuon's punishment as positive is seeing it through our cultural lens and misses the intent completely.

Juan
08-04-2011, 02:06 PM
I'll say right now I have not been reading the previous posts. However I don't wholly dislike Tuon... But she can be a conceited, arrogant bitch.

I'm a goddess even though I'm a regular human being. The one who will save mankind must bow to me because I'm a goddess and everyone is below me. I see him as equal when I'm daughter of 9 moons, but I'm superior when I'm empress... Lol... You go, girl.

And she thinks of Mat as lower than him. And even when she learns he's an able commander, she's just sizing him up as if she's better and gets to decide his worth.

I like her overall, but that attitude of hers has always bugged me. Probably why I dislike egwene as well.

jana
08-04-2011, 02:40 PM
I'll say right now I have not been reading the previous posts. However I don't wholly dislike Tuon... But she can be a conceited, arrogant bitch.

I'm a goddess even though I'm a regular human being. The one who will save mankind must bow to me because I'm a goddess and everyone is below me. I see him as equal when I'm daughter of 9 moons, but I'm superior when I'm empress... Lol... You go, girl.

I don't really see it the way you see it. In most of her personal interactions I don't see her as all that arrogant, especially considering her upbringing. The quote about the DR being lower:

The Empress could not meet anyone, not even the Dragon Reborn, as an equal. The Daughter of the Nine Moons, however . . . this one man could be her equal. And so she had hesitated. The Dragon Reborn would not likely respond well to another setting herself above him, no matter if that other had a perfectly legitimate reason for doing so.

I don't think Tuon thinks of herself as a god, but the station of Empress has always been god-like. So why should something with so much history change suddenly just because this new guy shows up? *shrug* If she were to lower herself in front of him, she would be assassinated within a matter of hours because the Seanchan would see her as a weakling. It's a protocol thing, not a personal thing.

I also disagree that she thinks Rand has to bow to her because he's below her and she's a goddess. From her perspective, he has to bow/kneel to her because if he doesn't the Dark One wins. Seems like a pretty noble reason to me. She knows how difficult/impossible getting that out of him is. I honestly think she would never expect or attempt it if it wasn't vital to winning the Last Battle.


As far as the Egwene comparison is concerned... I don't really see a comparison. I like Egwene, too, but her background is entirely different than Tuon's. Tuon has a lot more excuses for her behavior (if excuses are needed).

Ishara
08-04-2011, 03:09 PM
Juan, I'm going to refer you to the OP.

It's cool that you have opinions, but it would be nice if you backed them up with some critical thinking. Sweeping comparisons to Egwene don't move the conversation forward, nor do statements that you haven't read the whole thread. It's only 39 (short) posts long! What is the point of simply clicking on the thread and dumping your opinion? You may as well just blog about it. The point here is for interaction, for discussion. See it as an opportunity to sway others to your line of thinking, or to be swayed by theirs.

Juan
08-04-2011, 03:52 PM
Because as I recall, that wa your point in starting the main character threads. Far as ive seen, they all start with the same exact copy and pasted info, so I figured and skip that, having already read the exact same thing in your other threads. ;)

Also you ask general questions pertaining to the character. And ask for our opinions on it. Therefore, I figured the structure in this main character thread was much the same as the others. Saved myself time and simply posted my opinion of the character in response to the assumed OP.

In fact, I just wasted time writin this.. Hopefully though, if I choose not to read the repetitive intros in your main character threads, you won't have a problem with it since you know my reasons. I wasted time today, but hopefully it's worth it in order to save me time in the future. :)

the_collective
08-04-2011, 05:14 PM
From her perspective, he has to bow/kneel to her because if he doesn't the Dark One wins. Seems like a pretty noble reason to me. She knows how difficult/impossible getting that out of him is. I honestly think she would never expect or attempt it if it wasn't vital to winning the Last Battle.

This got me thinking. Does it not make sense that Rand was unable to bow before the Empress (or the Daughter of the Nine Moons, for that matter) in his Moridin-influenced state in the same manner that he would have been unable to resist enacting retribution during the parley with the Borderland rulers near Far Madding had he still been as heavily influenced by Moridin at that time?

In other words, I'm proposing that the Essanik Cycle states that the Dragon must bow to the Crystal Throne in order to have a chance at defeating the Dark One just as the Borderlanders had a Foretelling-from-back-in-the-day stating that the Dragon must remember the incident they'd named (sorry, I don't remember the specifics and don't have ToM with me) in order for the world to have a chance at surviving the Last Battle.

The point is, both of these point out the same thing. The Dragon must know humility if the world is to survive the Last Battle.

It's very important to note, by the way that Rand could not have bowed to "The Crystal Throne" (neither the physical one in the nation of Seanchan or The Empress - may she live forever - herself) in name because Tuon had not yet declared herself as Fortuona. Ergo, there was no Empress - may she live forever - to whom Rand could bow.

The meeting between the two of them in TGS was very important because:

a) Rand was not yet ready to fulfill this particular prophecy in his state-of-mind at the time

b) Tuon was not yet ready to declare herself Empress, thinking that - as Daughter of the Nine Moons - she had to at least try to meet this supreme-ruler-of-the-oath-breakers on 'equal' footing.

Now that this scene is complete, Fortuona was able to declare herself, so now Seanchan has an Empress that Rand can actually bow to, and luckily Rand did some thinking atop Dragonmount that made it possible for him to humble himself to others in the first place and be a true Servant-of-All.

The Dragon bowing before the Crystal Throne is (as it likely always had been) planned for AMoL, the final (several dozen) chapters....

jana
08-04-2011, 05:58 PM
The Dragon bowing before the Crystal Throne is (as it likely always had been) planned for AMoL, the final (several dozen) chapters....

I don't have anything intelligent to add. I was just thinking... it is going to piss Egwene off so much when he does it. Unless he's kneeling to a large crowd of people and Tuon just happens to also be there.

the_collective
08-04-2011, 06:09 PM
I don't have anything intelligent to add. I was just thinking... it is going to piss Egwene off so much when he does it. Unless he's kneeling to a large crowd of people and Tuon just happens to also be there.

It's funny you should say that. In my opinion, Egwene has had her lessons in humility already, what with her treatment at the hands of Elaida. She certainly needs to learn to be a Servant of All, as well. You'd think that she would have learned to overlook such.

I'm sure her reaction will depend largely on the circumstances, but I'm inclined to agree with you, Jana.

FelixPax
08-04-2011, 08:11 PM
The Dragon bowing before the Crystal Throne is (as it likely always had been) planned for AMoL, the final (several dozen) chapters....


Imaginary glowing flies on the wall, say otherwise. ;)

The Blind Dragon bowed before the Crystal Throne all the way back in 'Crossroads of Twilight'. Repeatedly.


He trailed off under Mat’s stare, then suddenly brightened again. “Look what the Lady gave me!” Snatching open one of the cupboards, he pulled out a folded paper that he held reverently in both hands. It was thick paper, and white as snow; expensive. “A warrant. Not sealed, of course, but signed. Valan Luca’s Grand Traveling Show and Magnificent Display of Marvels and Wonders is now under the personal protection of the High Lady Tuon Athaem Kore Paendrag. Everyone will know who that is, of course. I could go to Seanchan. I could put on my show for the Empress! May she live forever,” he added hastily, with another bow to Tuon.

For nothing, Mat thought bleakly. He sank down on one of the beds with his elbows on his knees, earning a very pointed look from Latelle. Likely only Tuon’s presence kept her from clouting him!

Tuon raised a peremptory hand, a black porcelain doll but every inch a queen despite the shabby too-large dress. “You are not to use that except at need, Master Luca. Great need!”

“Of course, High Lady; of course.” Luca bobbed bows as if he might be kissing the floorboards any minute.

All for bloody nothing!


Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 29 "Something Flickers" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Tuon, Selucia, Valan Luca, Latelle


The High Lady Tuon Athaem Kore Paendrag as official heir of Empress, automatically became the Empress upon Semirhage killing her mother in Seandar.


Day 728 Aine-6 Mar-20 (http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl1000.htm#book10) --> Seanchan Empress dead. (KoD Prologue)
Day 737 Aine-14 Mar-29 (http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl1000.htm#book10) --> Dragon bows to new Empress (CoT, Ch.29)


Ironically enough both the Dragon and the Empress were each blind, of this event's significance.

Ishara
08-04-2011, 09:37 PM
Because as I recall, that wa your point in starting the main character threads. Far as ive seen, they all start with the same exact copy and pasted info, so I figured and skip that, having already read the exact same thing in your other threads. ;)

Sadly, you seem to have missed the point of having the same text in the OP of each thread. You should try reading it at least once more, see if it triggers some thought for you.

Here, I'll even re-post the opener, yet again:

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

The fact is, you're doing neither thinking critically or objectively, and you're certainly not bothering to link your thoughts to any existing (or new) theories, threads or ideas. They're just your opinions. Which, again, are not particularly vital to this thread or these Boards. You as well set up a blog for random WoT-related thought and post there. Or, hey, go to other WoT sites that don't have a threshold of intelligent conversation that they'd like to maintain. Us HCFFs? We try. So try.

Also you ask general questions pertaining to the character. And ask for our opinions on it. Therefore, I figured the structure in this main character thread was much the same as the others. Saved myself time and simply posted my opinion of the character in response to the assumed OP.

Ah, see comprehension issues again Juan. I actually don't ask for your opinions. I never have, in these threads, because I don't much care. I do care about new ideas that make me think, about reasoned discussion, about persuasive arguments, about threads that further our exploration and understanding of these characters. One's opinion is pretty meaningless to those things unless it's supported by a rationale.

Furthermore, the questions in the OP are to generate discussion, to get the ball rolling - not to limit conversation. So to have a random post answering OP questions with no link to the preceding thread is not exactly helpful, or good use of the time of everyone else participating in the thread(s).

In fact, I just wasted time writin this.. Hopefully though, if I choose not to read the repetitive intros in your main character threads, you won't have a problem with it since you know my reasons. I wasted time today, but hopefully it's worth it in order to save me time in the future. :)

Gosh, you know, you can choose to do whatever you like. Just as I can choose to continue to call you out for degrading the quality of discussion and thought on these Boards with your one-off posts and brain dumps. I don't have a problem with you - I adhere to, and uphold where I can, the higher standards of these Boards. The expectation of deeper thought is made pretty clear right up front. If you're not willing to try and meet the standard (or surpass it) then why bother being here? There are other Boards that expect less of their members.

I'm sorry you feel like you wasted your time today, graciously explaining to me your opinions. So hopefully you'll appreciate it when I suggest that you consider saving everyone else time by not posting thoughtless brain dumps in the future. We're interested in your thoughts, your ideas and your theories. Not your opinions. So, hey, stick around and play a while!

And finally, just so we're very clear, smilies are not neuralizers. They don't eliminate the condescending tone or the passive aggressive message in your posts. "Saying it with a smile" doesn't make your point go over any better. ;)

Juan
08-05-2011, 12:11 AM
I am thinking critically and objectively.. as I always do. Just so happens that my conclusion was that on Tuon's PERSONALITY, she was arrogant to quite a large degree. Just because I decide to tackle on the personality, as many here often do, instead of offering a giant theory with quotes about what will happen. (See what if scenarios are fun.. but in the end, they're just speculation, and since we're gonna find out anyway, I figure I'd tackle things that are present in the plotline and characters, such as the personality of a character and her main flaw).

This wasn't me saying I hate Tuon. This was me saying Tuon has this problem, and for me makes it unlikable.

And ideas and theories come from opinions. So now I don't know what to do.. you want theories and ideas.. without opinions.. Ok hmm.. Let me see if it's possible to build a house without a first floor.. Hmm nope. Ok, so you get the picture. (Hopefully).

I don't have a problem against you, either. I do, however, feel you have many assumptions and rely too much on what my posts imply and your perceived tonality of it. I don't post to start pointless discussions (such as this one) nor to piss people off, although granted, it may happen, just as sometimes others' posts might piss me off. Anyway, without derailing thread. I suppose we'll continue disagreeing here, but have a good one. Smiley again:

:)

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 05:47 AM
This got me thinking. Does it not make sense that Rand was unable to bow before the Empress (or the Daughter of the Nine Moons, for that matter) in his Moridin-influenced state in the same manner that he would have been unable to resist enacting retribution during the parley with the Borderland rulers near Far Madding had he still been as heavily influenced by Moridin at that time?

In other words, I'm proposing that the Essanik Cycle states that the Dragon must bow to the Crystal Throne in order to have a chance at defeating the Dark One just as the Borderlanders had a Foretelling-from-back-in-the-day stating that the Dragon must remember the incident they'd named (sorry, I don't remember the specifics and don't have ToM with me) in order for the world to have a chance at surviving the Last Battle.

The point is, both of these point out the same thing. The Dragon must know humility if the world is to survive the Last Battle.

It's very important to note, by the way that Rand could not have bowed to "The Crystal Throne" (neither the physical one in the nation of Seanchan or The Empress - may she live forever - herself) in name because Tuon had not yet declared herself as Fortuona. Ergo, there was no Empress - may she live forever - to whom Rand could bow.

The meeting between the two of them in TGS was very important because:

a) Rand was not yet ready to fulfill this particular prophecy in his state-of-mind at the time

b) Tuon was not yet ready to declare herself Empress, thinking that - as Daughter of the Nine Moons - she had to at least try to meet this supreme-ruler-of-the-oath-breakers on 'equal' footing.

Now that this scene is complete, Fortuona was able to declare herself, so now Seanchan has an Empress that Rand can actually bow to, and luckily Rand did some thinking atop Dragonmount that made it possible for him to humble himself to others in the first place and be a true Servant-of-All.

The Dragon bowing before the Crystal Throne is (as it likely always had been) planned for AMoL, the final (several dozen) chapters....

First up, I was originally going to break up your post and respond to parts, but then realised I couldn't do that and respond fully, so apologies if this flows badly at all!

What makes you think Rand's state of mind was previously influenced by Moridin and now no longer is? Clearly the two share a link, but are they influencing each other, or just sharing experiences such as Moridin's hand aching? I had interpreted it that Rand's pre-Dragonmount state of mind was his own negativity/depression mixed with a degree of Taint-induced madness, and that after Dragonmount and the integration of himself he has achieved some level of enlightenment rather than necessarily sloughing off the influence of an outside agency. I think Nynaeve's delving of Rand in TOM demonstrates this: the Taint is still there but it's masked by a "Light Taint" counteracting its effects.

You should be aware that the Essanik and Karaethon Cycles are different. From the interview database (Brandon Sanderson giving the answers):

Question: We know that the Karaethon Cycle and the Essanik Cycle are different. Is that because there were different contributors to each, or some other reason (like tampering by Ishamael)? Which is more correct?
Answer: The Essanik cycle had only in Seanchan and there were different contributors. Which is more correct? I’m not going to say which is more correct. There has been tampering…
Question: In both?
Answer: People are not perfect, alright? Let’s just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what the Essanik cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.

I think you and a lot of other people are focusing on "Bow to the Crystal Throne" when potentially equally important is "Bind the Nine Moons to serve him". Sadly, I don't think we know which prophecy is Ishamael-altered and which is the original; it might in fact prove necessary to somehow fulfil both, especially given that Brandon says above that both might be misinterpreted and/or tampered with. Running with your analysis for a moment, it might be that at the time of the meeting Rand could have bound the Nine Moons to serve him, but failed to; having failed in the fulfilling of that prophecy, a good theory would be that bowing to the Crystal Throne is the prophecy he must fulfil. Unless, of course, and I have a hunch this is true, that fulfilling one is to fulfil the other.

You certainly do raise an interesting parallel between the Borderlanders and the Seanchan. There are other links: both are large, mostly unchallenged and unchallengeable empires; both have tremendous military might; both have prophecies related to the Dragon which for different reasons are unique to them. One possible interpretation of this is that both are equally important to defeating the Dark One. The Borderlanders, being those who have held back the Shadow for millenia, no doubt are essential; without an alliance with Seanchan the forces of the Light in the Wetlands risk fighting a war on two fronts.

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 07:04 AM
What actual evidence is there that any prophecy explicitly demands that the Dragon bows to the Empress?
I think that is merely an interpration, no more than that.

The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycleprinted in these lands, and they were corrupted too – not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne! – but the Prophecies held men’s minds and hearts still. More than a few hoped the Return came soon, that these lands could be reclaimed before Tarmon Gai’don so the Dragon Reborn could win the Last Battle for the glory of the Empress, might she live forever. The Empress surely would want al’Thor sent to her, so she could see what sort of man served her. There would be no difficulty with al’Thor once he had knelt to her. Few easily shook off the awe they felt, kneeling before the Crystal Throne, with the thirst to obey drying their tongues. But it seemed obvious that bundling the fellow onto a ship would be easier if disposing of the Asha’man – they had to be disposed of, certainly – waited until al’Thor was well on his way across the Aryth Ocean to Seandar.It seems to me that the bolded part is the closest we have to the actual text of the Seanchan version of the Karaethon Cycle.

And as a bonus: this is indeed about the KC. The EC is a separate set of prophecies, where we have even less idea of what they actually say. Speculating on that can be fun, but we should keep track of what is speculation and what is actually known.

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 07:11 AM
Shamelessly copied and pasted directly from the WOTFAQ:

[WH: 14, What a Veil Hides, 328-329]

Tuon speaking: "'I must find a way to make contact with the Dragon Reborn as soon as possible. He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost.' The Prophecies of the Dragon said so, clearly."

Admittedly it's the same sort of thing as yours, Gonzo. The FAQ also mentions my idea that both prophecies will be fulfilled.

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 07:12 AM
What actual evidence is there that any prophecy explicitly demands that the Dragon bows to the Empress?
I think that is merely an interpration, no more than that.

It seems to me that the bolded part is the closest we have to the actual text of the Seanchan version of the Karaethon Cycle.

And as a bonus: this is indeed about the KC. The EC is a separate set of prophecies, where we have even less idea of what they actually say. Speculating on that can be fun, but we should keep track of what is speculation and what is actually known.
some of it:
At the end of time,
when the many become one.
The last storm shall gather its angry winds
to destroy a land already dying.
And at its center,
the blind man shall stand
upon his own grave.
There he shall see again,
and weep for what has been wrought.
—From The Prophecies of the Dragon,
Essanik Cycle. Malhavish's
Official Translation, Imperial
Record House of Seandar, Fourth
Circle of Elevation.

nothing about the kneeling, but idk what else we have on them.

Terez
08-05-2011, 07:15 AM
What actual evidence is there that any prophecy explicitly demands that the Dragon bows to the Empress?
I think that is merely an interpretation, no more than that.
Read and learn, my little cricket:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 8 - Dragon's Eggs

Talking with her could be dangerous in other ways, too. “What do you know of the Dragon Reborn?” she asked him another evening.

He choked on a mouthful of wine, and the whirling colors in his brain dissipated in a fit of coughing. The wine was near enough vinegar; but even Nerim had a hard time finding good wine these days. “Well, he’s the Dragon Reborn,” he said when he could speak, wiping wine from his chin with one hand. For a moment, he saw Rand eating at a large dark table. “What else is there to know?” Selucia refilled his cup smoothly.

“A great deal, Toy. For one thing, he must kneel to the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai’don. The Prophecies are clear on that, but I haven’t even been able to learn where he is. It becomes still more urgent if he is the one who sounded the Horn of Valere, as I suspect.”

“The Horn of Valere?” he said weakly. The Prophecies said what? “It’s been found, then?”

“It must have been, mustn’t it, if it was sounded?” she drawled dryly. “The reports I’ve seen from the place where it was blown, a place called Falme, are very disturbing. Very disturbing. Securing whoever blew the Horn, man or woman, may be as important as securing the Dragon Reborn himself. Are you going to play a stone or not, Toy?”And as a bonus: this is indeed about the KC. The EC is a separate set of prophecies, where we have even less idea of what they actually say. Speculating on that can be fun, but we should keep track of what is speculation and what is actually known.
Brandon gives the impression that the Essanik is uncorrupted, but that there has been tampering with the KC. It's just an impression, but he can hardly say that sort of thing outright. None of that changes the fact that Tuon believes her prophecies, and Rand believes his - and we don't know which versions have been tampered with. It could be both.

I won't get into an argument about it, though - I just realized that there might not be anyone around to question your assurance that the TPOD reference was the only one.

Edit: and now I see that someone has managed to use EWoT, at least. Last time I checked, EWoT still didn't know the difference between Essanik and Karaethon, and they cited the kneeling bit with the Essanik.

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 07:25 AM
actually I just scanned my e-books
Tuon's guards—Selucia included—gritted their teeth, and the guards dropped hands to sword hilts. He had interrupted her twice in a row. The Daughter of the Nine Moons. How could he be so bold?

He was the Dragon Reborn, that was how. But his words were foolishness. He would bow before her, once she was Empress. The prophecies demanded it. Surely that meant that his kingdoms would join with the Empire.

She had let the conversation slip out of her control. The marath'damane were a touchy subject to many on this side of the ocean. They likely understood the logic in leashing the women, but their traditions were difficult to relinquish. That was no doubt why they were so disturbed by talking about these things.

Terez
08-05-2011, 07:29 AM
actually I just scanned my e-books
Too bad you missed the relevant references the first time.

I just looked at EWOT again, and they still haven't fixed it:

There is another set of prophecies in Seanchan (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/organizations/seanchan.html) known as the Essanik Cycle. It is not known how similar or different these sets of prophecies are, but the Essanik Cycle says that the Dragon Reborn (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/r/rand.html) must bow before the Crystal Throne (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/crystal_throne.html) before the Last Battle (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/main/creator.html).
I mentioned it to them on Twitter a couple of times. Granted, they said email is a better way to get things fixed, but perhaps you guys would be better for that. Perhaps they're not aware of what Brandon has said about it.

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 07:35 AM
Too bad you missed the relevant references the first time.
Actually I was just arguing that we DO have some text of the Essanik Cycle. Random bits with people noting that the EC demands the DR kneeling is the only thing everyone knows about it. What is the issue with that entry you quoted though?

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 08:14 AM
Actually I was just arguing that we DO have some text of the Essanik Cycle. Random bits with people noting that the EC demands the DR kneeling is the only thing everyone knows about it. What is the issue with that entry you quoted though?But that is not in the EC.

It is in the Seanchan "special edition" of the KC, instead.
We know that Luthair brought a copy of the KC to that side of the ocean. We know that copy was different from all the ones that were there at the time. We also know that all those other versions were suppressed, and that only Luthair's copy was kept. Furthermore, we know that the current Seanchan copy (Luthair's) is different from all the ones in Randland.

Thus, broadly speaking, we have the following two options:
1. Either every single version of the KC in the whole world was tampered with in exactly the same way, thousands of years ago, with the exception of the one which Luthair happened to get.
2. Luthair's copy was tampered with, adding the "bowing before the Crystal Throne" bit, and possibly removing the "bind the nine moons to serve him" bit, in order to create trouble between the Dragon and the Seanchan.

Furthermore, we have this bit, which seems quite pertinent:
"A thousand years later I sent the Trollocs ravening south, and for three centuries they savaged the world. Those blind fools in Tar Valon said I was beaten in the end, but the Second Covenant, the Covenant of the Ten Nations, was shattered beyond remaking, and who was left to oppose me then? I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed.The "doom yet to come" could very easily be the result of that corruption of the KC.
If not, then it is still totally unclear what Ishamael was talking about.

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 08:19 AM
I'm not sure you can know it's not in the EC.

And the DYTC can just be the Return.

Terez
08-05-2011, 08:19 AM
What is the issue with that entry you quoted though?
1. The kneeling bit comes from the Seanchan version of the KC, not the Essanik. We know that from the TPOD quote Gonzo provided. There is no reason to doubt it.
2. We do know a good bit about the differences between them, from the books and from Brandon.

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 08:22 AM
1. The kneeling bit comes from the Seanchan version of the KC, not the Essanik.

Is this fact?

Terez
08-05-2011, 08:33 AM
See edit addressing your cross-post.

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 08:45 AM
I'm not sure if that last bit was directed at me. Probably not, as I wasn't crossposting, and I have no idea what edit is being talked about.

On another note...
Question: In both?
Answer: People are not perfect, alright? Let’s just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what the Essanik cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.
Looks like the Essanik came after or during the rise of the Empire, and presumably after the finding of the Throne.

Terez
08-05-2011, 08:49 AM
I'm not sure if that last bit was directed at me. Probably not, as I wasn't crossposting, and I have no idea what edit is being talked about.
It was directed at you. We posted at the same time (7:19). That's crossposting. You will find the answer to your question in my post. At the moment, it appears as though you ignored it.

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 08:53 AM
I thought crossposting was something else. And that TPoD quote is far from conclusive.

Terez
08-05-2011, 09:00 AM
I thought crossposting was something else. And that TPoD quote is far from conclusive.
It says that the Seanchan version of the KC claims that the Dragon Reborn must kneel to the Crystal Throne, and the Randland version does not. That's conclusive, sorry. And there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the Essanik Cycle says any such thing.

jana
08-05-2011, 10:46 AM
I thought crossposting was something else. And that TPoD quote is far from conclusive.

Give it up :P

It's just a fact that this is something in the Karaethon Cycle. The Essanik has nothing of the sort. If the kneeling part was in the Essanik, nobody would be discussing its' authenticity because there would be no discrepancy in two versions of the same prophecy, and every other prophecy we've seen from the lone Essanik cycle is true thus far. If it was in the Essanik we'd all know it was a true prophecy.

The only reason this is a discussion at all is because there are 2 versions of the KC and one of them has something in it that irritates people because they don't like bald girls.

I think you and a lot of other people are focusing on "Bow to the Crystal Throne" when potentially equally important is "Bind the Nine Moons to serve him". Sadly, I don't think we know which prophecy is Ishamael-altered and which is the original

People focus on the kneeling because the other seems inevitable. And... which is Ishamael-altered? The one that makes people cringe the most.

Terez
08-05-2011, 10:55 AM
People focus on the kneeling because the other seems inevitable. And... which is Ishamael-altered? The one that makes people cringe the most.
Gonzo's logic is generally pretty sound...it makes more sense to assume that the one copy that traveled with Luthair was the corrupted one. It would have been easier. However, Ishamael was so much in Hawkwing's ear, and involved with the Black Ajah, along with every single person that sought to claim Hawkwing's throne during the first years of the Hundred Years War, etc., that he might have been able to corrupt all of the most trusted copies of the prophecies. But then there are commentary books (as we've seen in TGS), and he would have had to tamper with those too. It's a stretch.

But again, that doesn't change the fact that Tuon believes her prophecies and Rand believes his. It's hard to see them coming to an agreement that doesn't involve both prophecies being 'fulfilled'. It's possible, but it would require probably Mat's memories, Birgitte's memories, maybe even a conversation with Hawkwing himself to settle the matter. ;)

One important thing to note is that the future Aviendha saw made no mention of Mat at all. She might have seen a future where Mat did not survive Ghenjei.

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 11:26 AM
People focus on the kneeling because the other seems inevitable. And... which is Ishamael-altered? The one that makes people cringe the most.

There is a third possibility: both prophecies are true, and one is a dark prophecy which Ishamael inserted because it suited him. I agree that it seems more likely that Luthair's version is the corrupted one, especially since Ishamael would have had easy access to him before he crossed the Aryth. But if you're going to corrupt a prophecy, why not use another prophecy? I admit that there is absolutely zero evidence for this idea, other than intuition based on what we now know about dark prophecy and the shadow.

As for "bind the nine moons to serve him" being inevitable, I'm afraid I don't see that at all. The DOTNM rejected him when he approached her; she is now the Empress of Seanchan. At this stage I'd say it's far more likely he will kneel to the Crystal Throne than bind the nine moons to serve him, especially if the prophecy refers to the DOTNM, since she no longer exists.

Terez
08-05-2011, 11:57 AM
As for "bind the nine moons to serve him" being inevitable, I'm afraid I don't see that at all. The DOTNM rejected him when he approached her; she is now the Empress of Seanchan. At this stage I'd say it's far more likely he will kneel to the Crystal Throne than bind the nine moons to serve him, especially if the prophecy refers to the DOTNM, since she no longer exists.
The Court of the Nine Moons is the court of the Empress. Most people see this prophecy as being inevitable, so you can count yourself as a small exception to the general rule. We just disagree on how it will be fulfilled. I think it likely to have something to do with the Oath Rod, and it won't involve Tuon going against her ideas of who is in charge. Falme was Rand's last chance to address her as an equal. That doesn't mean that she can't serve him by ruling her empire, with him as one of her subjects.

SauceyBlueConfetti
08-05-2011, 12:12 PM
I have brought this up in the past, but no one ever remembers.

The phrophecy states "bind the Nine Moons to serve him", not DAUGHTER of the Nine Moons.

You can extrapolate that if Tuon is/was the DAUGHTER, then the Nine Moons could be any of the following:
1. the Empress,
2. Tuon's father (uh, no),
3. a place as a whole (Seandar? maybe),
4. the Court of the Nine Moons - not defined specifically as a place or a group of people, instead the term seems to be interchangable for both. Similar to the idea of "Parliament"---a place you go, but also the group of folks you stand before/belong to.

If the Nine Moons is the EMPRESS, it could still in fact be Tuon as she has ascended.

As I said, the phrophecy doesn't state DAUGHTER anywhere, and the phrase COURT of the Nine Moons is used in the books almost as often as the other.

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 12:17 PM
The Court of the Nine Moons is the court of the Empress. Most people see this prophecy as being inevitable, so you can count yourself as a small exception to the general rule. We just disagree on how it will be fulfilled. I think it likely to have something to do with the Oath Rod, and it won't involve Tuon going against her ideas of who is in charge. Falme was Rand's last chance to address her as an equal. That doesn't mean that she can't serve him by ruling her empire, with him as one of her subjects.

That sounds like exactly the opposite of servitude to me.

The fact that most people see something one way doesn't necessarily mean the person who sees it the other is wrong; "in the kingdom of the blind, the one eyed man is king".

Your comment about the oath rod is interesting - I presume that's based on the use of the word "bind", but if Tuon is holding the Oath Rod, how would Rand be doing the binding? He could be channeling through it, I suppose:

TITLE: New Spring CHAPTER: 11, Just Before Dawn
But there was no time for thinking of how she should have known Siuan was up to something when she gave in so easily. The glow of saidar surrounded Tamra, and she touched the Oath Rod with a thing flow of Spirit.
(emphasis mine)

It would make sense for the Oath Rod to be gender-neutral, unless there is evidence I am missing otherwise.

Terez
08-05-2011, 12:59 PM
That sounds like exactly the opposite of servitude to me.
Not surprising. Put some thought into it and you might understand.

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 01:01 PM
It would make sense for the Oath Rod to be gender-neutral, unless there is evidence I am missing otherwise.There is the evidence that the Forsaken (Sammael and Graendal, at least) did not seem to think that the oath rod they gave to the Shaido could bind either a male Forsaken or Rand. They seemed to be convinced that it was gender specific.
Could be they're wrong, of course, but I wouldn't really bet on that.

Terez
08-05-2011, 01:04 PM
There is the evidence that the Forsaken (Sammael and Graendal, at least) did not seem to think that the oath rod they gave to the Shaido could bind either a male Forsaken or Rand. They seemed to be convinced that it was gender specific.
Could be they're wrong, of course, but I wouldn't really bet on that.
I would, since Sammael had a clear motive to tell them it wouldn't work for men. The 'device' he spoke of was no doubt the Domination Band; if they bound Rand with that, then Sammael could easily take him into possession. If they bound him by an Oath, they could have made it specific to them and thereby written Sammael out of the picture.

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 01:12 PM
Yeah, but I don't think Sammael would have trusted them to simply believe him. So the fact that he had no apparent worries at all over handing it over is strong circumstantial evidence that it would not work on men.

Terez
08-05-2011, 01:23 PM
Yeah, but I don't think Sammael would have trusted them to simply believe him. So the fact that he had no apparent worries at all over handing it over is strong circumstantial evidence that it would not work on men.
Perhaps. It may be that it required saidin to work on men, and they didn't have anyone to activate it for them. Other than Rand himself, who seems unlikely to have been willing to do such a thing. They might be able to coerce him to swear while he was shielded, but in that case, he couldn't activate it for them. Or Sammael might have really believed they would take him at his word. He thought them simple-minded.

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 01:35 PM
Not surprising. Put some thought into it and you might understand.

Doesn't matter how hard I think about it, up still isn't down.

There is the evidence that the Forsaken (Sammael and Graendal, at least) did not seem to think that the oath rod they gave to the Shaido could bind either a male Forsaken or Rand. They seemed to be convinced that it was gender specific.
Could be they're wrong, of course, but I wouldn't really bet on that.

There is also, in addition to Terez' compelling arguments, the fact that that was a different Oath Rod/Binder.

Terez
08-05-2011, 01:36 PM
Doesn't matter how hard I think about it, up still isn't down.
Ever heard of gravity? :) The contradiction is all in your head, hence why you have to put some thought into it to understand it.

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 01:42 PM
Ever heard of gravity? :) The contradiction is all in your head, hence why you have to put some thought into it to understand it.

Still not getting it, I'm afraid. With gravity the concept "up" refers to away from the source of the gravitational pull, while "down" refers to towards it. It increases the more it goes down, sure. Is that what you're getting at? I don't quite see how it applies, I'm afraid you might have to spell it out some more. Sorry for being thick! (feel free to call me a dumb noob if it'll make you feel better)

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 02:00 PM
I'm not certain that Miraj would have spoken any differently if he only ever saw the EC.

Terez
08-05-2011, 02:04 PM
I'm not certain that Miraj would have spoken any differently if he only ever saw the EC.
That's because you're an idiot.

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 02:10 PM
That's because you're an idiot.

Compelling argument.

jana
08-05-2011, 02:45 PM
I have brought this up in the past, but no one ever remembers.

I think most people remember that Nine Moons refers to the whole empire, and just don't feel the need to mention it. It's a small percentage who focus in on the daughter part and think the "bind" prophecy can't happen anymore.


As for which prophecy is true, I think only one is true, but that they will both happen because neither side is going to be convinced that their version is wrong. It isn't even relevant which is true or whether either are true.

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 03:05 PM
I think most people remember that Nine Moons refers to the whole empire, and just don't feel the need to mention it. It's a small percentage who focus in on the daughter part and think the "bind" prophecy can't happen anymore.


As for which prophecy is true, I think only one is true, but that they will both happen because neither side is going to be convinced that their version is wrong. It isn't even relevant which is true or whether either are true.

I think the Nine Moons refers to the whole empire, but I don't think the bind prophecy is at all inevitable.

As for which is true, it might well be hugely relevant. Imagine what it might do to an empire as convinced of its own righteousness to learn that its entire history was controlled by a Forsaken. The revelation of the prophecy might be just the tip of the iceberg.

jana
08-05-2011, 03:51 PM
I think the Nine Moons refers to the whole empire, but I don't think the bind prophecy is at all inevitable.

As for which is true, it might well be hugely relevant. Imagine what it might do to an empire as convinced of its own righteousness to learn that its entire history was controlled by a Forsaken. The revelation of the prophecy might be just the tip of the iceberg.

Name a prophecy that hasn't come true. It really doesn't make sense that you think it won't happen, when every other prophecy has happened.


It's unlikely they're going to find out the truth. The whole point of the conflicting prophecies is to... create conflict. That's going to make the meeting interesting. Not a Disney end where the evil empire finds out how wrong they were and apologizes to everyone and does what the good guy tells them.

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 03:57 PM
Name a prophecy that hasn't come true. It really doesn't make sense that you think it won't happen, when every other prophecy has happened.


It's unlikely they're going to find out the truth. The whole point of the conflicting prophecies is to... create conflict. That's going to make the meeting interesting. Not a Disney end where the evil empire finds out how wrong they were and apologizes to everyone and does what the good guy tells them.

The argument of "it's prophecy so it will come true" is the only compelling one for it coming true at this stage. If you took out the prophecy aspect and simply asked which is more likely, the Dragon Reborn kneeling to the Crystal Throne looks marginally more likely at this stage than the Nine Moons being bound to serve him. That's the logic and the basis upon which I'm saying it's not inevitable. I dismiss the prophecy aspect of it since there is some question over the veracity of the prophecy in the first instance, and therefore using that argument to suggest the prophecy is inevitable is fallacious unless you first prove that the prophecy is true. Gonzo's argument demonstrates that in all likelihood it is and therefore it is probably correct to say the prophecy is inevitable because it is prophecy; hence my position that I think actually both will come true.

I think I disagree with you to some extent about what will happen with the Seanchan, because an ending in which they were not forced to reconsider their culture to some extent would be unsatisfying, but that may be simply my personal opinion. I believe there is also a good deal of foreshadowing and deliberate will they/won't they about the Seanchan and their culture which hints at a possible re-examination of traditions and beliefs. At times, though, particularly later in the series, RJ seems to support the Seanchan. One wonders idly to what extent he might have been influenced by political events towards the end of his life...

jana
08-05-2011, 04:08 PM
I think I disagree with you to some extent about what will happen with the Seanchan, because an ending in which they were not forced to reconsider their culture to some extent would be unsatisfying, but that may be simply my personal opinion. I believe there is also a good deal of foreshadowing and deliberate will they/won't they about the Seanchan and their culture which hints at a possible re-examination of traditions and beliefs. At times, though, particularly later in the series, RJ seems to support the Seanchan. One wonders idly to what extent he might have been influenced by political events towards the end of his life...

Ignoring the former because we're at opposite ends of the spectrum.

We don't disagree about this though. I just don't think it will be related to the prophecy. I think we'll know by the end of the series that they are going to change for the better in regards to damane/slaves etc. I just don't think it will involve them finding out that their prophecies or culture were influenced by Ishamael. That would be disatisfying to me. I want them to realize they're wrong morally. Not just find out they were duped.

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 04:25 PM
I'm curious...
did I miss something? how is it that everyone believes that the kneeling to the Throne bit only exists in a corrupted KC?

Terez
08-05-2011, 04:35 PM
I'm curious...
did I miss something?
Yes. Several times, in fact.

finnssss
08-05-2011, 04:38 PM
I'm curious...
did I miss something? how is it that everyone believes that the kneeling to the Throne bit only exists in a corrupted KC?


Because Ishamael, according to him, was a councilor to, and had great influence on Hawkwing near the end. Ishy also takes a lot of the credit for getting him to send his ancestors across the ocean in the first place.

Many believe that the copy of the KC that was taken with Hawkwing's descendants is the corrupted version due to Ishamael's closeness to it.
Obviously, corrupting just the copies sent to Seanchan would be much easier to accomplish than corrupting every copy in Randland.

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 04:42 PM
I'm curious...
did I miss something? how is it that everyone believes that the kneeling to the Throne bit only exists in a corrupted KC?Do you really think that Elaida would have bothered with that palace, if she had believed that she could gain the allegiance of the DR simply by plonking her own behind down on a glass chair?

If the "bowing before the Crystal Throne" bit had existed in the Randland version, then every king and queen would have been sitting on crystal thrones.

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 04:42 PM
But there is nothing conclusively stating that the kneeling bit is entirely fabricated?
EDITED to add...
I don't see why the bit about the crystal throne couldn't be unique to the EC.

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 04:45 PM
But there is nothing conclusively stating that the kneeling bit is entirely fabricated?Read and find out.

If it had been conclusively stated, one way or another, then a large part of the tension between Rand and the Seanchan would be gone for the readers.

For a similar reason, Taim and Demandred have never met on screen.

Terez
08-05-2011, 04:47 PM
But there is nothing conclusively stating that the kneeling bit is entirely fabricated?
(Again.) There is something stating conclusively that the kneeling bit is in the Seanchan version of the KC. This is why the Seanchan believe that the Randland KC is corrupted. There is nothing stating conclusively which version is corrupted, however. Logic favors the Seanchan version. One thing that is clear, however, is that the kneeling bit is in the KC, not the Essanik. Otherwise we would have no reason to believe that either was corrupted, and Brandon confirmed that there has been tampering. Also, there is nothing to even suggest that it is in the Essanik Cycle, other than EWOT's mistake.

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 04:48 PM
You assume that part was the result of tampering, and not another.

Juan
08-05-2011, 04:51 PM
The assumption here is of course that slavery is wrong.

You're assuming slavery is wrong for whatever reason, and therefore feel they should change.

What if they thought, as they seemingly do (some slaves are highly valued and appreciated and treated well, and they of their own accord take pride in their position-- Selucia.. And remember also Turak's slaves who killed themselves cause they couldn't bear to be without him), that slavery is right? And that people who disagree should bd the ones to change?


You should be aware of the inherent unstated assumptions in your positions and in theirs when you expect another to change. Then you can address that assumption first. Walk before you run.

For example, if I'm telling a musician I know, you should make your music so that it appeals to more people, you have higher chance of becoming well-known, and therefore have more money and be more successful. I'm making a few assumptions here, reasonable to most people.
1. Success is important.. But what if it's not?
2. Being famous and having a lot of money means you're successful. But what if success to that musician is defined as making music he loves to a select group of people in the same bar every Tuesday night? And again, what if he doesn't care about success, whatever the definition of success is?

Likewise, the assumption that slavery is wrong, seemingly reasonable. It makes sense to you and me. But does it make sense to them? The way you're going about it is like trying to tell them they should be rich and famous and therefore successful. But again, what is success? And further, does success even matter to them?

You're assuming you are right and they wrong. Which is fine. But this isn't a hard science with no dispute. It's detable, and they have a legitimate differing point of view, whether you agree with it or not.

Terez
08-05-2011, 04:52 PM
You assume that part was the result of tampering, and not another.
No, we don't assume it. It's in the quote that you keep trying to pretend is unimportant - the only quote in the whole series that suggests tampering. Meanwhile, everyone else marvels at your stupidity.

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 04:57 PM
But there is nothing conclusively stating that the kneeling bit is entirely fabricated?
EDITED to add...
I don't see why the bit about the crystal throne couldn't be unique to the EC.

There is evidence that it is in the Seanchan version of the KC, hence it is not unique to the EC. That is not to say that it is not also in the EC, however.

Yes. Several times, in fact.

As much as I like The Unreasoner, this made me ROFL.

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 04:58 PM
That TPoD quote? I don't see it being any different if Miraj only ever saw the EC at home.

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 05:05 PM
That TPoD quote? I don't see it being any different if Miraj only ever saw the EC at home.

Because Brandon says the Prophecies known in Seanchan before the consolidation were the Karaethon cycle, and the prophecies written after, by Damane, were the Essanik cycle. I posted the quote earlier on, but here it is again:

Question: We know that the Karaethon Cycle and the Essanik Cycle are different. Is that because there were different contributors to each, or some other reason (like tampering by Ishamael)? Which is more correct?
Answer: The Essanik cycle had only in Seanchan and there were different contributors. Which is more correct? I’m not going to say which is more correct. There has been tampering…
Question: In both?
Answer: People are not perfect, alright? Let’s just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what the Essanik cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 05:11 PM
Hypothetical:
Essanik Cycle is spoken, mentions the Dragon bowing to the Crystal Throne. Imperial propagandists erase the Karaethon Cycle from public records because they like the EC better. Miraj was simply noting the KC by name, but was first made aware of the KC's contents after he came to the main continent.

jana
08-05-2011, 05:17 PM
But there is nothing conclusively stating that the kneeling bit is entirely fabricated?
EDITED to add...
I don't see why the bit about the crystal throne couldn't be unique to the EC.

I've never cursed on here, but what the fruit, man.

Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too—not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne!

If you don't see how this proves that it's not unique to the Essanik, you are... that thing Terez said.

If it was only in the Essanik, Miraj wouldn't give a flying crap if Randland's Karaethon Cycle mentioned it, because it's a completely different f*ing book. Of course the prophecies would be different in it. They are different books. That wouldn't mean one was corrupted. It would mean different people made the different prophecies and wrote them down. What a strange notion that is. People thousands of miles away having different prophets writing down different things.

The only reason she has a thought about it is because the 2 books with the same title say different things.



Now, as for whether the Essanik mentions the kneeling (in addition to the Seanchan KC), no, there's no proof. RJ didn't dumb shit down and say this stuff flat out. It's obvious it doesn't mention it though, because nobody has said that it does. If it did say it, we would have been told by now because it would prove to us that the Seanchan prophecy is correct. Because we know it wasn't tampered with, we know there is no Randland version, and we know all of the prophecies in it have been accurate thus far.



Hypothetical:
Essanik Cycle is spoken, mentions the Dragon bowing to the Crystal Throne. Imperial propagandists erase the Karaethon Cycle from public records because they like the EC better. Miraj was simply noting the KC by name, but was first made aware of the KC's contents after he came to the main continent.

Hypothetical: Bela is hiding a third CK in her bottom.

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 05:26 PM
Hypothetical:
Essanik Cycle is spoken, mentions the Dragon bowing to the Crystal Throne. Imperial propagandists erase the Karaethon Cycle from public records because they like the EC better. Miraj was simply noting the KC by name, but was first made aware of the KC's contents after he came to the main continent.

To put it more politely than Jana: it's possible, but Gonzo's quote strongly implies that it is otherwise. Jana put it less politely than me, but with better reasoning.

Now, as for whether the Essanik mentions the kneeling (in addition to the Seanchan KC), no, there's no proof. RJ didn't dumb shit down and say this stuff flat out. It's obvious it doesn't mention it though, because nobody has said that it does. If it did say it, we would have been told by now because it would prove to us that the Seanchan prophecy is correct. Because we know it wasn't tampered with, we know there is no Randland version, and we know all of the prophecies in it have been accurate thus far.

I'd say the part in bold is a very dangerous assertion, especially given that we've only just learned of the existence of the Essanik Cycle at all. No-one has ever mentioned that Mazrim Taim is working for the Shadow, but we're relatively sure that he is. As you yourself said, RJ didn't say things flat out, and often that was because he was saving it for a surprise. Imagine this:

Rand: But the Karaethon Cycle in this land doesn't say I have to kneel!
Tuon: That's weird, this definitely does.
Moridin: Ah ha! That's because I tampered with the Seanchan prophecies.
Rand: Damn you Elan Morin!
Moridin: Bwahahaha!
Tuon: Let me see that. Oh yeah. Well, you still gotta kneel.
Rand: Why?
Tuon: Because it says so in this definitely not corrupt prophecy we have but you don't. Look.
Rand: Oh. Heh. *kneels*

jana
08-05-2011, 05:30 PM
Imagine this:

Rand: But the Karaethon Cycle in this land doesn't say I have to kneel!
Tuon: That's weird, this definitely does.
Moridin: Ah ha! That's because I tampered with the Seanchan prophecies.
Rand: Damn you Elan Morin!
Moridin: Bwahahaha!
Tuon: Let me see that. Oh yeah. Well, you still gotta kneel.
Rand: Why?
Tuon: Because it says so in this definitely not corrupt prophecy we have but you don't. Look.
Rand: Oh. Heh. *kneels*

That would make Ishy less awesome though, so it can't be :p

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 05:30 PM
maybe I'm being an idiot, but I think there is at least a small chance I am right.
Edited to add:
Miraj saw that these new KC prophecies were also corrupted, like he imagined the prophecies predating the Empire were. Luthair bringing prophecies sounds like propaganda.

Terez
08-05-2011, 05:33 PM
maybe I'm being an idiot, but I think there is at least a small chance I am right.
There is a much larger chance that you're being obtuse.

Crispin's Crispian
08-05-2011, 05:36 PM
You're assuming you are right and they wrong. Which is fine. But this isn't a hard science with no dispute. It's detable, and they have a legitimate differing point of view, whether you agree with it or not.
But their reason for slavery is that channelers are inherently dangerous and somehow evil...or at least unhuman enough to be so. We know from long exposure to nice channelers that such a blanket generalization is wrong.

Surely the Seanchan think they are right, but that's because they have been socialized to believe that channelers are not equal to humans. This is the supreme irony of their system--the sul'dam are channelers, so the whole backbone must eventually break.

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 05:47 PM
Surely the Seanchan think they are right, but that's because they have been socialized to believe that channelers are not equal to humans. This is the supreme irony of their system--the sul'dam are channelers, so the whole backbone must eventually break.

Tuon has demonstrated this to not be the case, however. Those who channel, in her eyes, choose to channel; she could but she chooses not to, and that makes her (and every other sul'dam) better than the marath'damane. This is actually the supreme injustice of the system; the Seanchan marath'damane (as opposed to the Wetlands Aes Sedai and other channelers) cannot choose to channel or otherwise.

Someone once suggested that collaring the Aiel Wise Ones would have amusing consequences. I expect that trying to collar those who cannot be moved will actually in some way contribute to the downfall of the Seanchan.

Terez
08-05-2011, 05:51 PM
Someone once suggested that collaring the Aiel Wise Ones would have amusing consequences. I expect that trying to collar those who cannot be moved will actually in some way contribute to the downfall of the Seanchan.
It's more likely to be Egwene. She's still got that mountain to climb, whatever it is. And she knows how to resist pain now. You might say it was the whole point of her stint as a prisoner in the Tower.

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 05:53 PM
It's more likely to be Egwene. She's still got that mountain to climb, whatever it is. And she knows how to resist pain now. You might say it was the whole point of her stint as a prisoner in the Tower.

I kinda feel that the "Egwene shall be collared again" foreshadowing has been dealt with by her getting collared during the Mesaana fight, and her stint as a prisoner, though. I think the alliance with the Seanchan woman is about her letting go of her prejudice and becoming truly free rather than necessarily being bound again. But it could happen. I guess it depends on the timing of Tuon's Tower Traveling Takedown.

Juan
08-05-2011, 06:17 PM
But their reason for slavery is that channelers are inherently dangerous and somehow evil...or at least unhuman enough to be so. We know from long exposure to nice channelers that such a blanket generalization is wrong.

Surely the Seanchan think they are right, but that's because they have been socialized to believe that channelers are not equal to humans. This is the supreme irony of their system--the sul'dam are channelers, so the whole backbone must eventually break.

We know. They don't. Or maybe they know damane can be nice. Dogs can be nice too. Doesn't make them human.

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate and justify slavery here. I'm saying, be aware of the opposing point of view, and while it might not make sense to you, it likely makes sense to them, so you shouldn't scream and demand the Seanchan to "change their evil ways [of slavery]."

Many say if they don't change that, I'll be very disappointed.. but then.. it's what makes them.. them. I'll probably be disappointed if they change, unless it's REALLY well done.

FelixPax
08-05-2011, 06:31 PM
Tuon nodded. She herself was not sure at all. That sort of sureness could lead to the Tower of the Ravens even for her. Perhaps especially for her. “I must find a way to make contact with the Dragon Reborn as soon as possible. He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai’don, or all is lost.” The Prophecies of the Dragon said so, clearly.


Winter's Heart, Chapter 14 "What a Veil Hides"-- Tuon/Fortuona point of view; with Semirhage/Anath


Who to say if the Crystal Throne is tied to particular place or object?

No need to return to Seanchan, if this is true.


What if any old crystal chair will do, as long of course, as the reigning Empress is sitting in that particular old crystal chair?

So if Fortuona's imperial backside touches any crystal chair would that be enough? Authority travels wherever the Empress goes?


How about that 'Red Crystal Chair' removed from Rhuidean by Moiraine, and placed into storage somewhere in Cairhien? (tFoH)


Some of the load was wrapped carefully or packed in boxes or barrels that Kadere had brought into the Waste full of his goods, and some was simply stuck in wherever it would fit, odd shapes of metal and glass, a red crystal chair, two child-sized statues of a nude man and woman, rods of bone and ivory and strange black materials in varying lengths and thicknesses. All sorts of things, including some Egwene could hardly begin to describe. Moiraine had used every inch of space in all of the wagons.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 23 "The Fifth, I Give You" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; her thoughts


I noticed this 'red crystal chair' was unlisted by eWoT website curiously enough.


Shall Fortuona visited Cairhien in AMoL book, and sit upon this Red Crystal Chair with the Dragon kneeling in front of her?


Or is the phrase 'Crystal Throne' a formal title of the Empress's office or station? Not only an object?

Marie Curie 7
08-05-2011, 07:59 PM
Hypothetical: Bela is hiding a third CK in her bottom.

This made me lol. :)

Terez
08-05-2011, 08:38 PM
This made me lol. :)
Me too, but not nearly as much as the tweet from last night that she has apparently deleted, that went something like this:

@Terez27 @BrandSanderson @zemaille @Barack Obama I just found a piece of cereal in my hair.
No missing context, or anything.

Terez
08-05-2011, 09:05 PM
I kinda feel that the "Egwene shall be collared again" foreshadowing has been dealt with by her getting collared during the Mesaana fight
I think that's what we're supposed to think. But it was a little anti-climactic considering that the angst over being collared is a series-spanning angst, and her issues with the Seanchan are as yet unresolved, and not likely to go away without something more than a simple realization...and Mesaana had nothing to do with the Seanchan. Egwene won't be able to get out of a real a'dam so easily, and if she can use it to show Tuon the error of her ways, then that's two birds with one stone. But that's assuming that anyone is going to defeat the a'dam in the waking world.

jana
08-05-2011, 09:13 PM
Me too, but not nearly as much as the tweet from last night that she has apparently deleted, that went something like this:

@Terez27 @BrandSanderson @zemaille @Barack Obama I just found a piece of cereal in my hair.

No missing context, or anything.


:o

I had to delete and retweet it 3 different times because I misspelled a different name each time, and after that I gave up. Or I just realized that only 3 of the 4 people I was tweeting cared.

The Unreasoner
08-05-2011, 09:36 PM
:o

I had to delete and retweet it 3 different times because I misspelled a different name each time, and after that I gave up. Or I just realized that only 3 of the 4 people I was tweeting cared.

Lol, who didn't?

Terez
08-05-2011, 09:38 PM
:o

I had to delete and retweet it 3 different times because I misspelled a different name each time, and after that I gave up. Or I just realized that only 3 of the 4 people I was tweeting cared.
That was what made it hilarious. Only you would randomly add the POTUS to a tweet about finding cereal in your hair.

jana
08-05-2011, 09:44 PM
Lol, who didn't?

Linda

Terez
08-05-2011, 09:51 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot about Baruffles.

Ishara
08-05-2011, 10:45 PM
You assume that part was the result of tampering, and not another.
Does it help to consider Occam's Razor? This is the ONLY discrepancy that has been brought to our attention since the introduction of the Seanchan in the series. Why would it be anything else?n Hard reason and clear quotes haven't swayed you. So how about common sense logic?

That would make Ishy less awesome though, so it can't be :p

Ha! Agreed. Nothing can make me less awesome.

jana
08-05-2011, 11:26 PM
Ha! Agreed. Nothing can make me less awesome.

:p

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 05:15 AM
I think that's what we're supposed to think. But it was a little anti-climactic considering that the angst over being collared is a series-spanning angst, and her issues with the Seanchan are as yet unresolved, and not likely to go away without something more than a simple realization...and Mesaana had nothing to do with the Seanchan. Egwene won't be able to get out of a real a'dam so easily, and if she can use it to show Tuon the error of her ways, then that's two birds with one stone. But that's assuming that anyone is going to defeat the a'dam in the waking world.

I think you may be on a snipe hunt here, but that would allign with my theory that the a'dam itself has to be made useless in order for the Seanchan seeing the error of their ways to even have a hope of sticking.

FelixPax
08-06-2011, 05:28 AM
Egwene won't be able to get out of a real a'dam so easily, and if she can use it to show Tuon the error of her ways, then that's two birds with one stone. But that's assuming that anyone is going to defeat the a'dam in the waking world.


Egwene show Tuon the error of her ways? :rolleyes:

More likely Mat Cauthon and Valan Luca accept all willing female channelers as their followers, in exchange they receive protection from the Seanchan Empire under the Cauthon-Paendrag Treaty.

As for getting out of an a'dam, it's very doable. Edesine, Teslyn, Joline each did so. ;) Each of them has a role to play with Tuon in the near future too.

Actually a bigger problem for Egwene al'Vere than getting out of an a'dam, is the budding female channeler mutiny of Egwene's own grand plans: Kinswomen, Hall, Ajah Heads including Tsutama Rath, Novices, Accepted, Sea Folk Windfinders, Aiel Wise Ones, Two Rivers channelers. Even Morgase, Gareth Bryne, Siuan & Mother Guenna, Leane, Dyelin, roofmistress Dorindha, Setalle Anan, Logain, the nations' Nobles, and Rulers will join this mutiny.

Yes, it's time to toss Egwene's ToM plans into a river of melted ice cold manure... light a match... then watch the White Tower burn to the ground.... go hide in that hole in ground, with Moghedien... time to let the men take women's chestnuts off the fire, for once.


Tuon's has her own internal & external problems to deal with:

A Voice who is also a Truthspeaker and Personal Bodyguard. Which role shall Selucia play to protect her charge, the Empress?

Selucia's a person above the law, outside the authority of the Empress legally speaking.


Palace rumors that a martha'damane is unleashed in Ebou Dar (KoD)? A risk that Galgan will attempt to overthrow her? Shadow's assassins after her? Her large armies being routed by Shadowspawn in Tarabon, Amadicia, Ebou Dar? Her armies misplaced in Murandy, to stop the Shadow on her southern borders? A husband off in the wild, location unknown to her?



Separately, who's to say the 'waking world' and the 'dream world' will remain two worlds in AMoL book? Changes already are pushing the two worlds to become one world. In that case, defeating an Seanchan's a'dam is the least of Egwene's problems.

Terez
08-06-2011, 06:23 AM
I think you may be on a snipe hunt here, but that would allign with my theory that the a'dam itself has to be made useless in order for the Seanchan seeing the error of their ways to even have a hope of sticking.
Well, that's how this conversation started in the first place, wasn't it? You suggested the Wise Ones; I said Egwene was more likely, assuming that's the road the story takes. I think there are other options, most of them having to do with Mat, but we'll see.

Crispin's Crispian
08-06-2011, 10:23 AM
That was what made it hilarious. Only you would randomly add the POTUS to a tweet about finding cereal in your hair.

What kind of cereal, though? That makes a difference.

Crispin's Crispian
08-06-2011, 10:30 AM
Tuon has demonstrated this to not be the case, however. Those who channel, in her eyes, choose to channel; she could but she chooses not to, and that makes her (and every other sul'dam) better than the marath'damane. This is actually the supreme injustice of the system; the Seanchan marath'damane (as opposed to the Wetlands Aes Sedai and other channelers) cannot choose to channel or otherwise.

Someone once suggested that collaring the Aiel Wise Ones would have amusing consequences. I expect that trying to collar those who cannot be moved will actually in some way contribute to the downfall of the Seanchan.

I just reread the passage in tGS where Tuon meets Rand. I would argue that it's a matter of degree, at this point, but you're right. Come to think of it, it's actually a pretty well written plotline. Faced with the cognitive dissonance of finding out she's a channeler, Tuon has to rationalize it by injecting "choice" into the mix. Seems familiar.

As for the downfall, I think someone will discover a secret to defeating the a'dam wholesale, and thus the ability to enslave channelers will be lost.

Terez
08-06-2011, 10:39 AM
I just reread the passage in tGS where Tuon meets Rand. I would argue that it's a matter of degree, at this point, but you're right. Come to think of it, it's actually a pretty well written plotline. Faced with the cognitive dissonance of finding out she's a channeler, Tuon has to rationalize it by injecting "choice" into the mix. Seems familiar.

As for the downfall, I think someone will discover a secret to defeating the a'dam wholesale, and thus the ability to enslave channelers will be lost.
As would Tuon's ability to choose the right path rather than be forced into it. ;) (Some might see that as poetic justice, but I see it as a childish desire to force Tuon to suffer for the sins of her culture, when RJ has developed her as a person with the personality necessary to both accept change, and change things on her own initiative.)

SauceyBlueConfetti
08-06-2011, 11:37 AM
It isn't even relevant which is true or whether either are true.

So, by that logic, a false dragon could in fact do everything the real dragon is required to do...and it wouldn't matter because some people believe he IS the dragon? That argument doesn't work for me, sorry.

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 11:40 AM
As would Tuon's ability to choose the right path rather than be forced into it. ;) (Some might see that as poetic justice, but I see it as a childish desire to force Tuon to suffer for the sins of her culture, when RJ has developed her as a person with the personality necessary to both accept change, and change things on her own initiative.)

If Tuon merely chooses to reject the a'dam the means of enslaving channelers is still there. If someone finds a way to defeat the collar, that means is gone permanently. It's necessary to put the genie back in the bottle to resolve the situation. Not that the collar being defeated would necessarily take the decision out of Tuon's hands, or lessen the decision once it is made.

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 11:42 AM
So, by that logic, a false dragon could in fact do everything the real dragon is required to do...and it wouldn't matter because some people believe he IS the dragon? That argument doesn't work for me, sorry.

In order to do everything the Dragon is supposed to do, you would have to be the Dragon. The odds of two kids being born on the slopes of Dragonmount are infinitesmal, let alone everything else. Vast swathes of the prophecies could only be fulfilled once. There can't be more than one Car'a'carn, for instance, as Couladin learned to his loss.

Terez
08-06-2011, 11:45 AM
So, by that logic, a false dragon could in fact do everything the real dragon is required to do...and it wouldn't matter because some people believe he IS the dragon? That argument doesn't work for me, sorry.
Not exactly. It doesn't matter which is true because both will likely be 'fulfilled' either way. It would be different if it were otherwise.

If Tuon merely chooses to reject the a'dam the means of enslaving channelers is still there. If someone finds a way to defeat the collar, that means is gone permanently.
Sure, but it need not happen now, or ever. The a'dam might be useful for enslaving bad channelers, but it likely won't be necessary. RJ didn't spend the whole series building this conflict to have it nipped by an inventive channeler.

It's necessary to put the genie back in the bottle to resolve the situation.
It isn't.

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 12:00 PM
Sure, but it need not happen now, or ever. The a'dam might be useful for enslaving bad channelers, but it likely won't be necessary. RJ didn't spend the whole series building this conflict to have it nipped by an inventive channeler.

It isn't.

With respect, it is. We are talking about a massive social change here which the run of the mill population of Seanchan will have to accept. Sure there will be large sections who have last a sister or a daughter to the collar who are willing to accept that change, but just as surely there will be those who fear the power of uncollared channelers and reject such change; look at how difficult some people find it just to accept the notion of marriage between two people of the same gender and you can see how attached people become to the idea of "the way things have always been". Tuon simply making a declaration that all channelers are now free simply isn't enough. Some of those freed don't want to be free, and as much as you can argue the abstract point that no-one has the right to be a slave, that is going to create problems. In addition, the group that stands to lose the most from the freeing of the Damane is one of the most powerful groups in Seanchan: the sul'dam. Unless they're going to go and train in the Tower themselves they lose all of their status; even if they do so, by current AS rules they will be accorded less status than their former charges. That isn't going to sit well with them.

For all of the above reasons, all it would take is for Tuon to be removed from power by someone in the pro-collaring faction and, so long as the Damane collar remains unbeatable, we will back in the same situation again, assuming she even makes the right decision in the first place. The Empress' power may be absolute, but that is based upon her having power over the channelers. If she is dismantling one of the institutions upon which her own power is based, it will make her authority questionable, despite the paradox inherent within that.

Tuon has to come to the decision to free the Damane, yes, but the collar must also be defeated, the making of it lost or made useless, for that decision to have any meaning at all.

Terez
08-06-2011, 12:20 PM
With respect, it is.
No, it isn't. There are plenty of devices of torture and such that we don't use any more even though they still exist and work just as well as they always did.

We are talking about a massive social change here which the run of the mill population of Seanchan will have to accept.
And eventually, they will. It helps that the Empress, whom they worship, will probably be the one to make the choice for them. The sul'dam secret will help Tuon's case, but it's not likely to make her choice for her.

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 12:27 PM
No, it isn't. There are plenty of devices of torture and such that we don't use any more even though they still exist and work just as well as they always did.

Not the same thing. We are talking about a device which enslaves individuals who the majority of the population believes to be dangerous. It's fair to say most people are going to want to put those collars right back on. A torture device can be used to inflict pain, but there is no real world equivalent of a device that takes away free will like the a'dam does.

And eventually, they will. It helps that the Empress, whom they worship, will probably be the one to make the choice for them. The sul'dam secret will help Tuon's case, but it's not likely to make her choice for her.

I would merely refer you to the second paragraph of my previous post in response to this. Tuon has already come up with a working rationalisation to get around the "sul'dam secret".

GonzoTheGreat
08-06-2011, 01:06 PM
As for the downfall, I think someone will discover a secret to defeating the a'dam wholesale, and thus the ability to enslave channelers will be lost.Someone is Elaida?

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 01:45 PM
Someone is Elaida?

I think we already covered this pretty extensively. Candidates are either Aiel or Aiel-trained, and for foreshadowing reasons, most likely Egwene (yes, Terez, I have come around to your way of thinking, that is indeed another notch for your bow).

Terez
08-06-2011, 01:50 PM
Not the same thing. We are talking about a device which enslaves individuals who the majority of the population believes to be dangerous. It's fair to say most people are going to want to put those collars right back on.
No, it isn't. First of all, you're assuming that they're going to be taken off forcibly...before the Last Battle? I doubt it will happen like that, though Tuon might could pull it off (their Empress-worship runs deep...maybe even deeper than their fear of channelers). I think it's more likely to be an agreement sworn on the Oath Rod. Second, even if they did want to put them back on, Tuon could destroy them, and if she played her cards right, it would be no difficulty for her to enforce laws concerning slavery.

I can see someone like Egwene defeating the a'dam, but that's not something a normal person could pull off, and even Egwene might have a problem pulling it off interminably. And it's simply not necessary to render the device useless to end its use, no matter how much you insist that it is.

A torture device can be used to inflict pain, but there is no real world equivalent of a device that takes away free will like the a'dam does.It doesn't matter, because humans have demonstrated that, in general, we have some restraint when society is looking over our collective shoulders.

I would merely refer you to the second paragraph of my previous post in response to this. Tuon has already come up with a working rationalisation to get around the "sul'dam secret".We all know that, so I don't know why you would repeat it. I said it could help her case...meaning, when she changes the law. She will probably have to do it gradually, which is where the Oath Rod comes in. The likes of Egwene and Elayne aren't going to accept her if she doesn't make that Oath, and likely Mat will be wanting it too. But the two must be as one in order for Rand to have a chance at winning the Last Battle. Both sides will have to make compromises...and one thing is for certain: it ain't happening like Aviendha saw it.

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 01:59 PM
When I say "defeat the a'dam" I don't mean it in the sense of "defeat the Oath Rod", i.e. get around it somehow; I mean in the sense of breaking its power utterly. So that extent we are in agreement: yes, Tuon could order them all destroyed. The problem with this idea is that it would be relatively easy for some unscrupulous individual to hold one back, and in any case the making of it would be remembered; all it then takes is for the pro-Damane movement to seize power, Tuon or no Tuon, and we are back in the same position. If some method could be found of rendering the collar ineffective, it would remove this problem.

You seem to be a lot more optimistic about the Seanchan willingly changing their most ancient traditions than I, and you also place a lot more faith in the power of the Empress. But consider, with the old Empress dead and the new thousands of miles abroad, rioting in the capital city, Seanchan in chaos, just how absolute is that power? Not nearly as absolute as it might once have been thought to be. Luthair Paendrag conquered Seanchan using the a'dam. Some unscrupulous Seanchan leader could very easily decide that they could conquer Seanchan the same way.

On the plus side, I think I've just worked out the plot of the Mat outrigger.

Terez
08-06-2011, 02:10 PM
When I say "defeat the a'dam" I don't mean it in the sense of "defeat the Oath Rod", i.e. get around it somehow; I mean in the sense of breaking its power utterly. So that extent we are in agreement: yes, Tuon could order them all destroyed.
Good. Don't expect it to happen before the end of the series.

The problem with this idea is that it would be relatively easy for some unscrupulous individual to hold one backAgain, it doesn't matter. Tuon has the resources to enforce her laws, especially if the free channelers of the world assist her in the transition process (which they have every motive to do). The empire will probably fall apart when the ability to channel disappears (probably in the next Age).

You seem to be a lot more optimistic about the Seanchan willingly changing their most ancient traditions than I, and you also place a lot more faith in the power of the Empress. But consider, with the old Empress dead and the new thousands of miles abroad, rioting in the capital city, Seanchan in chaos, just how absolute is that power?It's probably stronger than it ever has been. The Empress is the only thing they have left; without her, the whole world is chaos, in their eyes.

Some unscrupulous Seanchan leader could very easily decide that they could conquer Seanchan the same way.

On the plus side, I think I've just worked out the plot of the Mat outrigger.It took you long enough. No one is denying that the a'dam will be used for ill until Mat and Tuon reconquer the Seanchan lands (presumably with voluntary forces). But no one's going to come up with a neat trick to render the a'dam useless before the series ends. Tuon has to make a choice to free the damane, and it has to be a moral choice. In return for her wisdom, she will have her Empire, and she will (through her general, Mat) lead her forces against the creatures of the Shadow as her prophecies say she will. (And these might well be from the Essanik, for all we know.)

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 02:30 PM
But no one's going to come up with a neat trick to render the a'dam useless before the series ends. Tuon has to make a choice to free the damane, and it has to be a moral choice. In return for her wisdom, she will have her Empire, and she will (through her general, Mat) lead her forces against the creatures of the Shadow as her prophecies say she will. (And these might well be from the Essanik, for all we know.)

Do you still think that Egwene will be collared again? If you do, then surely her coming up with a way to defeat the a'dam would tie up neatly with convincing Tuon to scrap them. I agree that Tuon has to make the moral choice to remove them, but completely opposite to you, I think that choice loses meaning if the power of the a'dam is not also broken, for the reasons I've stated.

I also have serious questions about the level of power Tuon still holds in Seanchan itself. If that power level is not great enough, as I would say it appears not to be, then the end of the series loses a degree of power if the a'dam remains a tool that can be freely used to restrict channelers. We are not supposed to be getting the outriggers, remember, so AMOL needs to tie up as much as possible. Egwene defeating the collar and demonstrating her freedom and humanity to Tuon resolves a major storyline problem while leaving the reconquest of Seanchan open.

And when I said I figured out the plot of the outriggers, I meant some plot details. There would surely be Lord Evil o'Nasty also trying to conquer the continent using collared channelers, and freeing them would surely be a major plot point.

Terez
08-06-2011, 02:39 PM
Do you still think that Egwene will be collared again?
I think it's a possibility. But again, if she defeats the a'dam, it will be an exception to the rule. Not everyone has Egwene's ability to resist pain, and even Egwene can't do it forever.

If you do, then surely her coming up with a way to defeat the a'dam would tie up neatly with convincing Tuon to scrap them.It would most likely play a part, yes. But there are a good number of other things going on, Mat not least of them.

I agree that Tuon has to make the moral choice to remove them, but completely opposite to you, I think that choice loses meaning if the power of the a'dam is not also broken, for the reasons I've stated. Reasons I've countered with logic that you have ignored completely. No one cares about your opinion.

I also have serious questions about the level of power Tuon still holds in Seanchan itself.Regardless, what I say is still true, and you haven't addressed my logic. You've just ignored it.

We are not supposed to be getting the outriggers, remember, so AMOL needs to tie up as much as possible.Whether or not we get the outriggers will not change what is tied up and what isn't.

Egwene defeating the collar and demonstrating her freedom and humanity to Tuon resolves a major storyline problem while leaving the reconquest of Seanchan open.It's only one piece of the bargain, assuming it even happens. Right now the evidence points toward Egwene being saved by a Seanchan woman, and a golden hawk's wing stretching out to touch her. This points to Tuon being the one to save her, which points to some other catalyst for Tuon's change of heart (most likely having something to do with Mat). Of course, the Seanchan woman could be some other woman, and the hawk could be Berelain. We'll see. But Berelain is slated for a shaved head, so maybe it doesn't matter much. ;)

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 02:53 PM
I'm not ignoring your logic, I'm disagreeing with your conclusions. I have reasons of my own, you may have noticed. Then again I could just as easily accuse you of ignoring my logic because you disagree with me.

I think we've reached an impasse.

Terez
08-06-2011, 02:57 PM
I'm not ignoring your logic, I'm disagreeing with your conclusions. I have reasons of my own, you may have noticed. Then again I could just as easily accuse you of ignoring my logic because you disagree with me.
I've addressed your arguments. You haven't addressed mine. My opinions are backed up by facts and logic. Yours aren't.

FelixPax
08-06-2011, 03:20 PM
I think you may be on a snipe hunt here, but that would allign with my theory that the a'dam itself has to be made useless in order for the Seanchan seeing the error of their ways to even have a hope of sticking.


Who of all individuals was able to free Aes Sedai from Tuon's a'dam?

Mat Cauthon.
Mat is the key for the Seanchan Empire ditching the a'dam.

Fortuona has a choice to make, pick a husband or pick the a'dam slavery institution.

jana
08-06-2011, 03:34 PM
It isn't even relevant which is true or whether either are true.
So, by that logic, a false dragon could in fact do everything the real dragon is required to do...and it wouldn't matter because some people believe he IS the dragon? That argument doesn't work for me, sorry.

Way to take my post out of context and apply it to every prophecy when it only applies to one. I don't see how your post even relates to mine.

Rand's not going to change his mind that he needs to bind the nine moons. Tuon's not going to change her mind that he needs to do the gesture of kneeling to the Crystal Throne. Therefore they'll both happen and it's not going to matter which was the real prophecy or if they both are. Either way, the prophecy or prophecies came true.

This applies to no other prophecies and neither does what I said. It also doesn't have anything to do with a false dragon. A false dragon doing those things would mean that neither prophecy came true.

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 03:35 PM
I've addressed your arguments. You haven't addressed mine. My opinions are backed up by facts and logic. Yours aren't.

I honestly don't see how you can say that. This isn't me getting into a slagging match with Juan over who said what, this is me having what until just now I thought was a reasoned discussion with someone I respect. I know it's kinda your schtick to accuse anyone who disagrees with you of being a dumbass, but I don't see in what way my arguments are backed up by facts and logic any better than yours. I know I'm not going to get any kind of response from this other than "well of course you don't because you're stupid" but it would be refreshing to see you try a little harder.

FACT: The Seanchan Empire is in chaos.
FACT: Collaring channelers is one of the central pillars of Imperial Seanchan power.
FACT: Tuon has shown an unwillingness to abandon this oppressive tradition.
FACT: In the real world it is difficult to persuade people to abandon traditions that are central to their culture overnight, no matter how damaging this might be.
FACT: The Wheel of Time series is a fantasy based upon reality, especially where politics are concerned.
INFERENCE: Unless the collar itself is defeated it is likely that the collaring of channelers will go in in some form whether outlawed or otherwise.
INFERENCE: Egwene al'Vere, herself a former Damane, is uniquely placed to defeat the collar and demonstrate the wrongness of the tradition to the current Empress. Mat Cauthon is also likely to have some involvement.

I don't see how any of that is not based upon logic and reasoning. I don't disagree that your arguments are also based in the same but it's disingenuous of you to accuse me of, frankly, making shit up, just because I happen to disagree with you.

EDIT: Although the fact that I actually agree with Felix does bring that assertion somewhat into question. :-P

jana
08-06-2011, 03:47 PM
If Tuon merely chooses to reject the a'dam the means of enslaving channelers is still there. If someone finds a way to defeat the collar, that means is gone permanently.

I think you're missing one obvious thing. Something horrible and evil being out there doesn't mean people actually use it. People change their minds and ways of thinking. You say Tuon can come to the correct decision. What about the rest of the Seanchan? The rest of the Seanchan have been shown to be alright people other than the slavery issue. Why wouldn't they choose the right way if Tuon does? This is their first contact with people of a different opinion, so they could be convinced too, with Tuon's help. That would make a far better story than the a'dam getting destroyed with some brand new One Power trick that we've never heard of until the last book. (That thought just makes me laugh).

I have access to guns but I don't buy them. A bunch of countries have access to nukes but they don't use them. The a'dam doesn't need to "lose its' power" in some cheesy magical way. We also know that the a'dam was invented. Someone could easily invent it again.

Thinking that the collar can be "defeated" just seems like something out of another book series. It doesn't gel with anything that's ever happened before in the WoT. You can't just destroy a specific type of ter'angreal. That's ludicrous.

Terez
08-06-2011, 03:54 PM
FACT: The Seanchan Empire is in chaos.
Fact:

The common people walked more confidently, more proudly. They had an empress again. With all that was wrong in the world, this one thing was right again.

FACT: Collaring channelers is one of the central pillars of Imperial Seanchan power.It wasn't a pillar of Hawkwing's, which is the entire basis for Seanchan domination of Randland.

FACT: Tuon has shown an unwillingness to abandon this oppressive tradition.Fact: RJ has spent the whole series setting up her change of heart.

FACT: In the real world it is difficult to persuade people to abandon traditions that are central to their culture overnight, no matter how damaging this might be.Fact: Terez has said several times in this thread that she doesn't think it will happen overnight.

FACT: The Wheel of Time series is a fantasy based upon reality, especially where politics are concerned.Irrelevant, since it does not support your claims.

INFERENCE: Unless the collar itself is defeated it is likely that the collaring of channelers will go in in some form whether outlawed or otherwise.Opinion. And one not supported by the facts. The sul'dam secret was, after all, necessary to enforce the institution of damane in the first place. And the institution is what we're talking about - not random outlaws collaring channelers.

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 04:11 PM
Jana - the fact that something evil exists, unfortunately, does tend to mean people will use it. The fact that you or I choose not to use guns obviously does not mean that there aren't people out there who will and do use them. As for nukes, the situation is not comparable; the reason people tend not to use nukes is because of mutually assured destruction, which even today is still a fact of life. The gun comparison is much more valid. Here in England we have very strict gun control laws. People still commit crimes with guns, despite the length of the jail sentences. People still buy and use guns to kill and injure one another; to impose their will on others, which is exactly what the a'dam does and is for.

Imagine that tomorrow morning the federal government of the USA banned guns completely (ignore the constitutional questions of doing so etc). That would not stop people from owning guns and using them in the short term. In the long term, at the next election a pro-gun party could be elected into office and make the use of guns completely legal again. Now, that is what I'm suggesting could happen in Seanchan. Even ten years, or 15, or 50, if the a'dam collars were still fit for their original purpose the next ruler who happens to be pro-collaring could reinstate the rule.

I'm not suggesting that the a'dam could be magically wiped out. It could, however, be rendered useless if the Aiel method of embracing pain is able to overcome its capacity to induce pain. Egwene's united White Tower and alliance of channelers of all nations could begin teaching young women who can channel this method tomorrow. Then when the time came that the new ruler decided to collar again, no matter whether the collars had been destroyed or reinvented, no matter how many they had, they would still be of no use. The women would simply reach up and take the collars off. Thus is the a'dam defeated.

Terez - I'm sorry, I missed your point about the overnight thing; that's obviously what you meant by it not happening by the end of AMOL.

The fact that WOT is fantasy based on reality is relevant to my argument since it helps to show that massive social upheavals are not something which generally happen quickly or without resistance, and freeing the Damane would be a massive social upheaval.

For the reasons I explained in my response to Jana above, it is likely that unscrupulous people would go on using the a'dam whether outlawed or otherwise. As for the sul'dam secret, I don't believe that it was generally known even among sul'dam prior to the return that that was the truth of the relationship between sul'dam and Damane.

GonzoTheGreat
08-06-2011, 04:14 PM
I think we already covered this pretty extensively. Candidates are either Aiel or Aiel-trained, and for foreshadowing reasons, most likely Egwene (yes, Terez, I have come around to your way of thinking, that is indeed another notch for your bow).Not necessarily. Those would be the only logical candidates if it were a way of defeating while wearing it, true.
But if Elaida (or some other damane) figures out a way of taking the thing off while she is collared, then everything changes. At that point, for those who knew the trick, the a'dam would be no more than a very temporary inconvenience at most.

I know that Cadsuane didn't manage it. But then, it may be that Cadsuane was just not properly motivated to try.

Terez
08-06-2011, 04:16 PM
Terez - I'm sorry, I missed your point about the overnight thing; that's obviously what you meant by it not happening by the end of AMOL.
It's also what I meant when I said that the Oath Rod would probably be required (which ties into binding the Nine Moons, of course), and it's also what I meant when I said that it would probably have to be done gradually, and with the assistance of the free channelers.

The fact that WOT is fantasy based on reality is relevant to my argument since it helps to show that massive social upheavals are not something which generally happen quickly or without resistance, and freeing the Damane would be a massive social upheaval.Nobody said it would happen quickly, though it can probably happen more quickly than you assume, and nobody said there would be no resistance. But the Empire is very good at putting down resistance.

For the reasons I explained in my response to Jana above, it is likely that unscrupulous people would go on using the a'dam whether outlawed or otherwise. As for the sul'dam secret, I don't believe that it was generally known even among sul'dam prior to the return that that was the truth of the relationship between sul'dam and Damane.It doesn't matter whether or not it was known (though it almost certainly was known). The ignorance made the institution possible.

jana
08-06-2011, 04:25 PM
It could, however, be rendered useless if the Aiel method of embracing pain is able to overcome its capacity to induce pain
Why would their embracing the pain make the magical properties of the a'dam stop holding them? That's just... stupid. The current damane are already doing this, anyway. When the sul'dam gives them pleasure I'm sure they embrace it fully. That doesn't render the a'dam useless.

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 04:32 PM
It doesn't matter whether or not it was known (though it almost certainly was known). The ignorance made the institution possible.

I don't get it - you say that it was probably a known fact, but then go on to say that it was the ignorance that made the institution possible? That doesn't seem to make sense. If ignorance was necessary to make it possible, how could it have been known? The fact that Tuon had to come up with a justification for why she was better than the average marath'damane suggests to me that it wasn't.

In any case, would you agree with me on this: that it is more likely that the institution of collaring in Seanchan would die out if some way of defeating the a'dam were defeated? I do not mean instead of some accord being reached to outlaw it, but in addition to that.

Gonzo - I'd say the odds of Elaida doing anything that's actually useful in this series are very slim, though probably higher than they were while she was in control of her own actions. :rolleyes:

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 04:33 PM
Why would their embracing the pain make the magical properties of the a'dam stop holding them? That's just... stupid. The current damane are already doing this, anyway. When the sul'dam gives them pleasure I'm sure they embrace it fully. That doesn't render the a'dam useless.

It theoretically might allow them to touch the collar long enough to reach up and simply take it off.

jana
08-06-2011, 04:38 PM
It theoretically might allow them to touch the collar long enough to reach up and simply take it off.No.

Terez
08-06-2011, 04:38 PM
I don't get it - you say that it was probably a known fact, but then go on to say that it was the ignorance that made the institution possible? That doesn't seem to make sense.
I realize you're slow, but it's really simple. Luthair invades Seanchan. An Aes Sedai invents the a'dam and Luthair uses it to collar all channelers including her. Legend has it that this is when the first sul'dam were found, but that doesn't make any sense - why create the thing if you didn't know how to use it? - so more likely the knowledge was suppressed by Luthair.

In any case, would you agree with me on this: that it is more likely that the institution of collaring in Seanchan would die out if some way of defeating the a'dam were defeated?
More likely? It would be certain. The fact that it's pretty certain otherwise doesn't change the fact.

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 04:47 PM
I realize you're slow, but it's really simple. Luthair invades Seanchan. An Aes Sedai invents the a'dam and Luthair uses it to collar all channelers including her. Legend has it that this is when the first sul'dam were found, but that doesn't make any sense - why create the thing if you didn't know how to use it? - so more likely the knowledge was suppressed by Luthair.

You can leave out the petty insults, they're not going to make any difference one way or another.

So if the knowledge is suppressed by Luthair, it is not known in Seanchan at the present day. I assumed that was what you meant by "known" but obviously not. In any case, if the justification already used by Tuon is widely known, that's not going to stop anyone from using the collar; even if Tuon has a change of heart and uses it as the basis for outlawing collaring, it certainly wouldn't stop a rebel force including sul'dam from using the collar, and sul'dam are the ones who stand to lose most from the dismantling of the institution.

Terez
08-06-2011, 04:51 PM
So if the knowledge is suppressed by Luthair, it is not known in Seanchan at the present day.
Many think that the Imperial Family knows, and has always known.

In any case, if the justification already used by Tuon is widely known, that's not going to stop anyone from using the collarIt wouldn't stop them from collaring sul'dam, either.

even if Tuon has a change of heart and uses it as the basis for outlawing collaring, it certainly wouldn't stop a rebel force including sul'dam from using the collar, and sul'dam are the ones who stand to lose most from the dismantling of the institution.Once they realize they can be collared too, whether or not they choose to channel, I doubt they'll worry much about what they stand to lose by the dismantling of the institution. (Aside from the fact that a new institution would likely have places of honor for voluntary service channelers.) And rebel forces can be defeated - that is, after all, what the outriggers would likely have been about.

The Unreasoner
08-06-2011, 05:02 PM
Legend has it that this is when the first sul'dam were found, but that doesn't make any sense - why create the thing if you didn't know how to use it? - so more likely the knowledge was suppressed by Luthair.

How would they have found any sul'dam before they had access to an a'dam? Wearing the bracelet is the test.
and the collar works fine to hold channelers on its own.

I think it was designed to allow for sul'dam, assuming (reasonably) their existence. Knowing sul'dam exist isn't the same as knowing who they are.

Terez
08-06-2011, 05:07 PM
How would they have found any sul'dam before they had access to an a'dam?
Wearing the bracelet is the test.
Actually, wearing the collar is the test. Any woman who can channel can wear the bracelet, but only those who 1) can learn, and 2) haven't learned yet can wear the bracelet without the collar having any effect on them. It's hard to believe they didn't collar anyone until they randomly discovered girls meeting the qualifications; more likely they knew what they were looking for.

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 05:19 PM
Surely they would have used the free AS they had in the beginning to find some untrained learners, then made them the sul'dam over the very AS they used to find them?

GonzoTheGreat
08-06-2011, 05:26 PM
Egwene knew incredulity must be painting her face, because Renna laughed openly. "When Luthair Paendrag Mondwin, son of the Hawkwing, first faced the Armies of the Night, he found many among them who called themselves Aes Sedai. They contended for power among themselves and used the One Power on the field of battle. One such, a woman named Deain, who thought she could do better serving the Emperor – he was not Emperor then, of course – since he had no Aes Sedai in his armies, came to him with a device she had made, the first a'dam, fastened to the neck of one of her sisters. Though that woman did not want to serve Luthair, the a'dam required her to serve. Deain made more a'dam, the first sul'dam were found, and women captured who called themselves Aes Sedai discovered that they were in fact only marath'damane, Those Who Must Be Leashed. It is said that when she herself was leashed, Deain's screams shook the Towers of Midnight, but of course she, too, was a marath'damane, and marath'damane cannot be allowed to run free. Perhaps you will be one of those who has the ability to make a'dam. If so, you will be pampered, you may rest assured."Based on this, it is possible that not even Luthair knew that the first sul'dam were those who could learn to channel but did not have the spark. It is possible that some of the first damane were aware of it, but not even that is certain. Based on what is told about that period (by Luthair's historians, who are not entirely trustworthy, of course), there was no central AS organisation, so it is possible that no one really knew precisely what it took to learn to channel anymore.

Terez
08-06-2011, 05:27 PM
Based on this, it is possible that not even Luthair knew that the first sul'dam were those who could learn to channel but did not have the spark.
That is the legend I was referring to earlier. I don't buy it.

The Unreasoner
08-06-2011, 05:39 PM
Actually, wearing the collar is the test. Any woman who can channel can wear the bracelet, but only those who 1) can learn, and 2) haven't learned yet can wear the bracelet without the collar having any effect on them. It's hard to believe they didn't collar anyone until they randomly discovered girls meeting the qualifications; more likely they knew what they were looking for.

Now you're just being obnoxious. They are BOTH the test.

What's wrong with the legend?

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 05:41 PM
Now you're just being obnoxious. They are BOTH the test.

What's wrong with the legend?

It's from an untrustworthy source. Unfortunately, in the absence of other evidence it's sometimes necessary to rely upon untrustworthy sources.

The Unreasoner
08-06-2011, 05:45 PM
It's from an untrustworthy source. Unfortunately, in the absence of other evidence it's sometimes necessary to rely upon untrustworthy sources.

I find it plausible, ignoring the source.
Taking the source into account...I still don't have a problem. The Seanchan are efficient historians.

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 05:49 PM
I find it plausible, ignoring the source.
Taking the source into account...I still don't have a problem. The Seanchan are efficient historians.

Efficient, but a history written by the victors nonetheless.

EDITED TO ADD: I don't actually agree with Terez that it's likely to be totally untrue, but I do have a... healthy suspicion of it.

The Unreasoner
08-06-2011, 05:56 PM
I'm suspicious too, but there is nothing wrong with the explanation. My favorite explanation is that Ishamael gave the Imperial Family the a'dam in exchange for the Towers of Midnight, where he collected the Dark Prophecies. It's a long shot theory.

Enigma
08-06-2011, 08:02 PM
I'm suspicious too, but there is nothing wrong with the explanation. My favorite explanation is that Ishamael gave the Imperial Family the a'dam in exchange for the Towers of Midnight, where he collected the Dark Prophecies. It's a long shot theory.

Ishamael only had a limited window of opportunity to influence the world given that he only has a temporary pass for 40 years and most of that time was spent in Hawkwing's court.

Its not impossible that Ishamael traveled to Seanchan but RJ said over and over in several interviews that without any central channeling authority in the Seanchan continent, pre consolidation Aes Sedai there were back stabbing, power hungry tyrants. I personally think that the simplest explination is that an ambitious AS without the territory or resources to raise her to dominance but who has come up with a new ter'angreal, say a chance to use Hawkwing's son but found out to her cost that he used her instead.

The Unreasoner
08-06-2011, 08:04 PM
Oh I accept the given explanation. But if it's not true, I have a favored alternative.

GonzoTheGreat
08-07-2011, 05:08 AM
My favorite explanation is that Ishamael gave the Imperial Family the a'dam in exchange for the Towers of Midnight, where he collected the Dark Prophecies. It's a long shot theory.I accidentally misread this as:

"My favorite explanation is that Ishamael gave the Imperial Family the a'dam in exchange for the Towels of Midnight, where he collected the Dark Prophecies. It's a long shot theory."

I like that HHGTTG reference.

Of course, the idea that Ishamael was behind it is rather weakened by the following passage:
He was about to turn away when the outlines of the gateway suddenly began to flex and tremble. Transfixed, he watched until the opening simply – melted. He had never been a man to give way to obscenities, but several rose in his mind. What had the woman done? These barbarous rustics offered too many surprises. A way to Heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible! Except that they had done it. Involuntary rings. Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitives revealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of. Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known! What had the girl done?

The Unreasoner
08-07-2011, 05:22 AM
What is HHGTTG? and it looks like you read it correctly. as for the quote...
Well, that's why it's a long shot, isn't it?

Zombie Sammael
08-07-2011, 07:10 AM
What is HHGTTG? and it looks like you read it correctly. as for the quote...
Well, that's why it's a long shot, isn't it?

Hitch-Hikers Guide To The Galaxy, and Towels of Midnight.

The Unreasoner
08-09-2011, 04:30 PM
Hitch-Hikers Guide To The Galaxy, and Towels of Midnight.

Ah.
I also think it's possible that the AS who gave the Seanchan the first a'dam was athan'shadar. The a'dam could have been her idea, but the purpose was to aid the Consolidation and secure the Towers of Midnight, following Ishamael's orders.

Enigma
08-11-2011, 03:54 PM
Ah.
I also think it's possible that the AS who gave the Seanchan the first a'dam was athan'shadar. The a'dam could have been her idea, but the purpose was to aid the Consolidation and secure the Towers of Midnight, following Ishamael's orders.

If she was from Randland she probably would have been a darkfriend to come up with and then start general production of a think like an a'dam but from everything we have learned about the Aes Sedai in Seanchan before the consolidation they may not have worshiped the Dark One but they were a pretty nasty lot. It seems quite like the sort of thing that an ambitious AS with no political or miliatary base would come up with to get ahead.

Not to mention I thought that when he was watching the wonder girls leave Ebou Dar in a hurry Ishamael/Moridin had a little think about all the things that he had come across that were impossible or not known in his own age and one of them was a forced ring eg the a'dam.

Ishara
08-11-2011, 04:22 PM
Yup - he did! Excellent point.

Classic example of power-hungry, bent and twisted, but not evil: Elaida.

Zombie Sammael
08-11-2011, 04:25 PM
Yup - he did! Excellent point.

Classic example of power-hungry, bent and twisted, but not evil: Elaida.

Do we now know "involuntary rings" refers to the a'dam, or is it merely a strong belief based on the fact that all the other possibilities have been eliminated?

Terez
08-11-2011, 04:33 PM
Not to mention I thought that when he was watching the wonder girls leave Ebou Dar in a hurry Ishamael/Moridin had a little think about all the things that he had come across that were impossible or not known in his own age and one of them was a forced ring eg the a'dam.
'Involuntary rings' most likely refers to the practice of the Black Ajah by which they pull another woman into a circle against her will to torture and interrogate her.

The Unreasoner
08-11-2011, 04:52 PM
'Involuntary rings' most likely refers to the practice of the Black Ajah by which they pull another woman into a circle against her will to torture and interrogate her.

Of all people, Terez is the one to snatch my pet theory from the gates of oblivion.

Have some youngling rep!

Enigma
08-12-2011, 11:49 AM
'Involuntary rings' most likely refers to the practice of the Black Ajah by which they pull another woman into a circle against her will to torture and interrogate her.

It could be however linking was well known in the AoL and if its that easy for a circle of a certain size to draw in another woman against her will, I would have thought that they would have come across it before.

Its a bit of a stretch but when Asmodean was trying to teach Rand he bemoned the fact that they could not use a link it would make things a lot easier to show weaves to Rand. I took that to mean that in the AoL linking might be a common teaching method. Its quite possible that the AS then discovered that if a circle was large enought it could draw in a student even if she was having problems embracing the sourse.

A ter'angreal to control someone else, that was far too nasty for most of the Aol and even during the Collapse and then then the war the forsaken were just learning to be evil and simply may not have had time to put their twisted little minds to something like this.

If I'm not mistaken Moggy when she first explained what the male a'dam was had to figure it out as it was unknown in her age and there was reference to Semirhage (in the current era) testing an a'dam to see how much could be done with it.

Terez
08-12-2011, 12:26 PM
It could be however linking was well known in the AoL and if its that easy for a circle of a certain size to draw in another woman against her will, I would have thought that they would have come across it before.
That's exactly what Moridin thought - hence why it was on his amazing impossible things list. A ter'angreal to create an involuntary link is not very amazing, but finding a way to force someone into a link without a ter'angreal, when it's supposed to be impossible? Different story. As soon as KOD came out it seemed obvious this was what he was referring to.

JOS
08-12-2011, 03:09 PM
My comment does not relate to the origins of the a’dam, but rather relates back to preventing the inevitable collapse of the Empire; inevitable due to the imminent explosion (pun intended) of the channeling sul’dam issue. I found a passage in ToM were one of “The High Blood” (I use the term loosely, but he has some measure of authority), has commanded two sul’dam to fix the problem.

Specifically he told them to:

1) Go to Tar Valon with the Aes Sedai
2) Learn to channel
3) Convince the Empress of the truth
4) Prevent the collapse of the Empire
ToM, Partings and Meetings, Prince of the Ravens speaking to Seta and Bethamin:

"Highness," Seta said, "It is true? You’re going allow these to roam free of you?"

"Best be rid of them," Mat said, wincing at her choice of title for him ... the two Seanchan woman had changed a great deal since beginning with the group, but they still found it odd that Mat did not wish to use the Aes Sedai as weapons. "Do you want to go, or do you want to stay?"

"We will go," Bethamin said firmly…

"Yes," Seta said, "though I sometimes think it might be better to simply let us die, as opposed to ... Well, what we are, what we represent, means that we are a danger to the Empire."

Mat nodded. "Tuon is a sul'dam," he said.

The two women looked down.

"Go with the Aes Sedai," Mat said. "I'll give you your own horses, so you don't have to rely on them. Learn to channel. That'll be more use than dying. Maybe someday you two can convince Tuon of the truth. Help me find a way to fix this without causing the Empire to collapse."

The two women looked to him, more firm and confident, suddenly. "Yes, Highness," Bethamin said. "It is a good purpose for us to have. Thank you, Highness."

Seta actually had tears in her eyes. Light, what did they think he had just promised them?

Mat, of course, does not realize what he has done. The sul’dam, however, feel that the Prince of the Ravens has commissioned them to save the Empress and the Empire. This is why Seta has tears in her eyes. They have much honor in serving Mat and using their unique situation to help the Empire. He changed their entire point of view. Suddenly, they are no longer a disgrace and a danger to the Empire, but possible saviors of the Empire. They may just be the Seanchan Bada$$ with the sword from Egwene’s dream. Thoughts?

Zombie Sammael
08-12-2011, 03:16 PM
My comment does not relate to the origins of the a’dam, but rather relates back to preventing the inevitable collapse of the Empire; inevitable due to the imminent explosion (pun intended) of the channeling sul’dam issue. I found a passage in ToM were one of “The High Blood” (I use the term loosely, but he has some measure of authority), has commanded two sul’dam to fix the problem.

Specifically he told them to:

1) Go to Tar Valon with the Aes Sedai
2) Learn to channel
3) Convince the Empress of the truth
4) Prevent the collapse of the Empire


Mat, of course, does not realize what he has done. The sul’dam, however, feel that the Prince of the Ravens has commissioned them to save the Empress and the Empire. This is why Seta has tears in her eyes. They have much honor in serving Mat and using their unique situation to help the Empire. He changed their entire point of view. Suddenly, they are no longer a disgrace and a danger to the Empire, but possible saviors of the Empire. They may just be the Seanchan Bada$$ with the sword from Egwene’s dream. Thoughts?

The woman with the sword seems to imply a warrior; Aes Sedai and even sul'dam are not so much warriors, so I still think that part refers to something else.

However, I like this theory a lot. :D It seems like a really good catch, especially since we were reading it from Mat's POV and didn't necessarily think about what Seta and Bethamin might have been thinking, or who they might have thought they were talking to.

sleepinghour
08-12-2011, 04:52 PM
They may just be the Seanchan Bada$$ with the sword from Egwene’s dream. Thoughts?
Seta saving Egwene would have been interesting given their history, but I think Egeanin is a more likely candidate as the woman with a sword. The TSR quote sounds like typical RJ foreshadowing.
She realized she had not told Egwene about Egeanin. Perhaps best not to stir up Egwene's memories of her captivity. Nynaeve could remember all too well the other woman’s nightmares for weeks after she was freed, waking up screaming that she would not be chained. Much the best to let it lie. It was not as if Egwene need ever meet the Seanchan woman.
The neatly stacked sheets of fine paper bore [Egeanin's] newly granted sigil, a sword and a fouled anchor.

Leilwin, with a curved sword hanging from a broad leather strap that slanted across her chest, and Domon, with a shortsword on one side of his belt and a brass-studded cudgel on the other, were chatting with Juilin and Amathera on yet another log close by.

JOS
08-12-2011, 05:11 PM
Seta saving Egwene would have been interesting given their history, but I think Egeanin is a more likely candidate as the woman with a sword. The TSR quote sounds like typical RJ foreshadowing.

Well, I think I stretched a little replacing Egeanin with the newly motivated Sul'dam, but I think they will be heavily involved in the resolution. If there is one.

Granted, if there isn't a resolution, the world loses a good measure of order and belief, and gains bloody chaos and horror as the Seachan proceed to kill each other on both sides of the Aryth Ocean.

Enigma
08-13-2011, 12:33 PM
That's exactly what Moridin thought - hence why it was on his amazing impossible things list. A ter'angreal to create an involuntary link is not very amazing, but finding a way to force someone into a link without a ter'angreal, when it's supposed to be impossible? Different story. As soon as KOD came out it seemed obvious this was what he was referring to.

Surely if linking was so widely used in the AoL someone would have found out that a large enought circle could draw another female channerer in against their will?

There is no real hard evidence one way or another but my vote goes for the a'dam rather that the circle.


JOS the trouble that the two former sul'dam face is that unless things change if they were ever to return to the Seanchan first they would be collared then probably tried for disertion if not reason, orders from the prince of ravens or no orders. They helped Mat & co escape and take AS with them long before Mat got married.

Not to mention I suspect that not even the prince of ravens has the authority to order damane as the two former sul'dam would be viewed as, to be left uncollared. On their own they are not going to do a lot unless they run into Tuon again away from Seanchan lands and do something fantastic like saving her life and a lot of other Seanchan.

JOS
08-13-2011, 01:16 PM
JOS the trouble that the two former sul'dam face is that unless things change if they were ever to return to the Seanchan first they would be collared then probably tried for disertion if not reason, orders from the prince of ravens or no orders. They helped Mat & co escape and take AS with them long before Mat got married.

Not to mention I suspect that not even the prince of ravens has the authority to order damane as the two former sul'dam would be viewed as, to be left uncollared. On their own they are not going to do a lot unless they run into Tuon again away from Seanchan lands and do something fantastic like saving her life and a lot of other Seanchan.

These two damane still an have assignment to fulfill, despite open hostility from their former society. They would not be well received if they popped into Ebou Dar and started handing out pamphlets on the redeeming qualities of Aes Sedai, or asked for an audience with the Empress.

What they can do, is convince the captured damane and sul'dam to cut the crap and train with the Aes Sedai (which is valuable for negotiations and the Last Battle). They could discover that the Oath Rod provides a way to bind channelers to the Empire without a leash. A fourth oath could break the impasse between the Dragon and the Empress on marath'damane. Then Rand, and all Aes Sedai, would be bound to the nine moons.

They somehow need to get this information to the Empress in a timely manner, which will either need to be arranged by Rand or possibly Egeanin, Setalle, or Mat.

As minor characters, they may not drive the change, but they could be a catalyst behind the scenes.

GonzoTheGreat
08-13-2011, 01:20 PM
What they can do, is convince the captured damane and sul'dam to cut the crap and train with the Aes Sedai (which is valuable for negotiations and the Last Battle). They could discover that the Oath Rod provides a way to bind channelers to the Empire without a leash. A fourth oath could break the impasse between the Dragon and the Empress on marath'damane. Then Rand, and all Aes Sedai, would be bound to the nine moons.

They somehow need to get this information to the Empress in a timely manner, which will either need to be arranged by Rand or possibly Egeanin, Setalle, or Mat.Do they have a whole week left to do all this, or will they have to hurry a bit?

Zombie Sammael
08-13-2011, 01:36 PM
On the matter of involuntary rings - well, that's it actually. Rings. Moridin could very well be referring to both. The term accurately describes what both the BA and a'dam do; forces someone into a circle against their will. That's how the a'dam works. If one is impressive enough to be worth mentioning, then both would be, but both would be captured in that one description. Against the notion that it refers solely to the a'dam is the fact that another "involuntary ring" ter'angreal is a relic from the AOL; the dream ring (it takes you into TAR if you're wearing it even if you don't want to go). If Moridin is referring solely to a ter'angreal, it stands to reason that a ter'angreal that works on the bearer involuntarily isn't all that impressive, because the Dream Ring is a mere teaching aid.

@Gonzo - I think the game after AMOL is going to become "guess the plot of the outriggers" and may involve "convince Team Jordan to let us have the outriggers" as a sort of mini-game. So they might have a shade more than a week.

JOS
08-13-2011, 01:55 PM
Do they have a whole week left to do all this, or will they have to hurry a bit?

They have a minute to win it.

crap.

Terez
08-13-2011, 03:54 PM
Surely if linking was so widely used in the AoL someone would have found out that a large enought circle could draw another female channerer in against their will?
Like they should have figured out how to Heal severing? If they'd figured it out, then Moridin wouldn't have thought it was impossible, even in reference to the a'dam.

Enigma
08-13-2011, 09:26 PM
If they'd figured it out, then Moridin wouldn't have thought it was impossible, even in reference to the a'dam.

With respect Terez that's circular reasoning:) We know that Moridin was surprised at the existance of something either the a'dam or people being forced into a circle. There is no 100% way of being certian which he was refering to.

Terez
08-13-2011, 09:32 PM
Actually, yours is the circular logic. You think that they must have discovered how to pull someone into a circle against their will in the Age of Legends. But if they had, then he wouldn't have believed it to be impossible.

Enigma
08-13-2011, 09:47 PM
I think its fair to say that in this arguement one's opinion shades the scene to what ever way one wants. That goes for my arguement but its the same for your Terez. Perhaps the promised WoT Encyclopedia will shed more light on what was and was not common in the AoL.

Terez
08-13-2011, 09:52 PM
That's not even the issue here. But I will drop it now - I'm sure anyone else reading can reason that out.

Zombie Sammael
08-14-2011, 10:28 AM
With respect Terez that's circular reasoning:) We know that Moridin was surprised at the existance of something either the a'dam or people being forced into a circle. There is no 100% way of being certian which he was refering to.

There is no way to be 100% certain about it - there's an entire thread on the non-WOT board about that - but we can be reasonably certain by virtue of the fact that an "involuntary ring" existed in the AOL, as I said before. If he's referring to the a'dam, then why is he surprised by its existence purely on that basis?

Ishara
08-14-2011, 11:21 AM
What they can do, is convince the captured damane and sul'dam to cut the crap and train with the Aes Sedai (which is valuable for negotiations and the Last Battle). They could discover that the Oath Rod provides a way to bind channelers to the Empire without a leash.



This I like.

GonzoTheGreat
08-14-2011, 12:01 PM
What they can do, is convince the captured damane and sul'dam to cut the crap and train with the Aes Sedai (which is valuable for negotiations and the Last Battle). They could discover that the Oath Rod provides a way to bind channelers to the Empire without a leash. A fourth oath could break the impasse between the Dragon and the Empress on marath'damane. Then Rand, and all Aes Sedai, would be bound to the nine moons.Assuming, of course, that the oathrod actually works on men, which is so far contradicted by some circumstantial evidence and only supported by raw speculation.
If it does not bind men, then all male channelers would still be given a choice "die, or be slaves".

Unless the whole "channelers need to be bound" idea itself is kicked apart.

Edited to add:
Just for giggles: what kind of oath could possibly be an acceptable replacement for an a'dam, anyway?
I would be interested in any suggestions for this, as I feel quite sure that I could pick large holes in any proposal.

Zombie Sammael
08-14-2011, 12:56 PM
Assuming, of course, that the oathrod actually works on men, which is so far contradicted by some circumstantial evidence and only supported by raw speculation.
If it does not bind men, then all male channelers would still be given a choice "die, or be slaves".

Unless the whole "channelers need to be bound" idea itself is kicked apart.

Edited to add:
Just for giggles: what kind of oath could possibly be an acceptable replacement for an a'dam, anyway?
I would be interested in any suggestions for this, as I feel quite sure that I could pick large holes in any proposal.

Sevanna’s fingers touched the rod lightly. More glass than ivory, and very cool. “It only works on women?” She ducked into the tent ahead of him. The Wise Ones and the leaders of the warrior societies were gone, but the dozen treekiller gai’shain remained, kneeling patiently to one side. No one person had ever kept a dozen gai’shain before, and she possessed more. There would have to be a new name for them, though, since they would never put off the white.

“Women who can channel, Sevanna,” Caddar said, following her in. The man’s tone was incredibly insolent. His dark eyes shone with open amusement. “You will have to wait until you have al’Thor before I give you what will control him.”

That rod, which is presumably identical apart from the number to the one in the Tower, only works on women. From later in the same chapter:

“Of course,” Caddar went on, “if you mean some other man—There is a thing called a binding chair. Binding people who cannot channel is more difficult than binding those who can. Perhaps a binding chair survived the Breaking, but you will have to wait while I find it.”

Given that Sammael was speaking of the sad bracelets when he referred to something which could control Rand, this seems to imply that Oath Rods can't bind men, and that a binding chair is required to bind a man, even a male channeler.

Enigma
08-14-2011, 01:06 PM
Just for giggles: what kind of oath could possibly be an acceptable replacement for an a'dam, anyway?
I would be interested in any suggestions for this, as I feel quite sure that I could pick large holes in any proposal.

How about "I swear to serve faithfully the interests of the Empire of Seanchan and the commands of the Empress/Emperor may she/he live for ever".

Sort of like an oath of fealty. Of course there is the problem of swearing an oath reducing one's lifespan a bit.

As for Sammael, perhaps the oath rod only works on woman but given that he was trying to get the Shaiod to serve his interest and most certainly did not what them thinking they could use the oath rod on Rand he may not have been 100% truthfully.

Zombie Sammael
08-14-2011, 01:08 PM
As for Sammael, perhaps the oath rod only works on woman but given that he was trying to get the Shaiod to serve his interest and most certainly did not what them thinking they could use the oath rod on Rand he may not have been 100% truthfully.

Then why mention the binding chair? It seems like an awfully specific thing to make up on the spot - especially when he referred to the sad bracelets in the same passage.

Enigma
08-14-2011, 04:45 PM
Then why mention the binding chair? It seems like an awfully specific thing to make up on the spot - especially when he referred to the sad bracelets in the same passage.

Sammael was making things up like the fools boxes but if he is spinning a story its a lot easier to fill in the gaps with factual items that he would be familiary with.

Don't get me wrong there is a very good chance that seperate ter'angreal might be needed to bind male and female channlers given the differences in saidir and saidan but I would give Sammael's word very little weight given the contenxt that he was trying and succeeding for the most part to completly pull the wool over the eyes of the Shaido leadership.

JOS
08-14-2011, 09:54 PM
Sammael was making things up like the fools boxes but if he is spinning a story its a lot easier to fill in the gaps with factual items that he would be familiary with.

Don't get me wrong there is a very good chance that seperate ter'angreal might be needed to bind male and female channlers given the differences in saidir and saidan but I would give Sammael's word very little weight given the contenxt that he was trying and succeeding for the most part to completly pull the wool over the eyes of the Shaido leadership.

Even if the oath rods that we know about don't bind male channelers, we know that these ter'angreal were used to punish and control criminals in the AoL, so there is most likely a binder that works for men or both. Check the Stone, the White Tower, or the Ebou Dar collection for such.

So far as an acceptable oath, I like Enigma's proposal. It will require compromise from Tuon and the Blood to accept it, as channelers would need to be viewed as honorable servants (like the Aes Sedai are supposed to be) instead of enslaved rabid sociopaths. This is were Tuon being able to channel could factor in.

Enigma
08-15-2011, 05:47 AM
I doubt if the Blood would like the oath I proposed however it might be hard for them to voice their objections. I gather that the Empress has more damane that anyone else but the Blood also employ damane. If a member of the blood was thinking of rebelling they would need the damane to stand any chance. There is reference from Seanchan characters to battles between damane.

The oath I proposed would take away that advantage as any ex damane who took the oath could not fight against the empress. Of course I would not like to be the noble who says I don't like the wording of the oath because I want to have the option of rebelling. That might be bad for one's long term career prospects.

GonzoTheGreat
08-15-2011, 05:48 AM
How about "I swear to serve faithfully the interests of the Empire of Seanchan and the commands of the Empress/Emperor may she/he live for ever".Three problems (for now) with this:

1. What happens if a channeler thinks that a command given by the Empress/Emperor is against the interests of the Empire?
Based on what we know, that could very easily kill that channeler.

2. What if there are two (or more) claimants to the throne, as is the case right now?
Would the channeler have to obey every claimant, or could she decide that someone "is not the true ruler"?

3. Why would Egwene and Logain swear this?

As for Sammael, perhaps the oath rod only works on woman but given that he was trying to get the Shaiod to serve his interest and most certainly did not what them thinking they could use the oath rod on Rand he may not have been 100% truthfully.I still think his paranoia was too great for that. If the oath rod he gave Sevannah could have been used against him, then he would not have given it to her.

Enigma
08-15-2011, 06:01 AM
I suppose one could try some oath about serving the public good but the trouble with that is that channeler 1 might have different view about what the public good requires that say channeler 2.

In our world just look at the different views between Republican & Democrat, Conservative & Labour.

Perhaps the simplest would just be to follow the orders of the Empress. If the Empress is dead there is normally a designated heir who they could obey.

Zombie Sammael
08-15-2011, 06:03 AM
Even if the oath rods that we know about don't bind male channelers, we know that these ter'angreal were used to punish and control criminals in the AoL, so there is most likely a binder that works for men or both. Check the Stone, the White Tower, or the Ebou Dar collection for such.

Sammael told us there was one; such a thing as a binding chair. It's not outside of the scope of the OP for it to require a much more complex ter'angreal to bind a man than a woman. Also, either the OR can be used to bind non-channelling females or the binding chair can; it's outside the realms of possibility to think that only channellers committed crimes in the AOL.

Enigma
08-15-2011, 06:09 AM
The Chair in Tar Valon was used against non channeling criminals as it made them experience their crime from the victim's pov. The trouble is that its a lot easier to bind channelers because the ability to channell itself opens up the person in ways that non channellers don't have to worry about.

Zombie Sammael
08-15-2011, 06:15 AM
The Chair in Tar Valon was used against non channeling criminals as it made them experience their crime from the victim's pov. The trouble is that its a lot easier to bind channelers because the ability to channell itself opens up the person in ways that non channellers don't have to worry about.

I doubt the Chair of Remorse is the same thing as a binding chair, though; Sammael definitely seemed to think that a binding chair would bind a man as an Oath Rod would bind a woman.

GonzoTheGreat
08-15-2011, 07:47 AM
Perhaps the simplest would just be to follow the orders of the Empress. If the Empress is dead there is normally a designated heir who they could obey.First, I have some doubts about that "normally a designated heir". There's too many cases in history when things weren't as simple as that.
Second, we know that the Seanchan themselves see a huge difference between even such a designated heir after the death of the Empress, and an actual Empress. So this would leave lots of wiggle room, and AS would use that.

Third, once again: why should Logain and Egwene bother becoming subservient to the Seanchan Empress at all?
Fourth, as an addendum: what would stop Tuon from collaring all channelers anyway, right after they've sworn this oath? Or some successor of hers, some time later.

JOS
08-15-2011, 09:56 AM
First, I have some doubts about that "normally a designated heir". There's too many cases in history when things weren't as simple as that.
Second, we know that the Seanchan themselves see a huge difference between even such a designated heir after the death of the Empress, and an actual Empress. So this would leave lots of wiggle room, and AS would use that.

Third, once again: why should Logain and Egwene bother becoming subservient to the Seanchan Empress at all?
Fourth, as an addendum: what would stop Tuon from collaring all channelers anyway, right after they've sworn this oath? Or some successor of hers, some time later.

Maybe what they need is more of a Hippocratic Oath (do no harm), of course this would be an even harder sale to the Blood (loss of military power).

Or they could swear to do no harm, save to fight shadowspawn, or to fight at the express command of the Empress.

The problem with channelers is that they will rule the world if left unchecked. It is almost as if we need to choose between a future where Randland is governed by the Hall of Servants or a future governed by the Crystal Throne.

In the AoL the binders were only used on criminals, is a future (4th Age) without bound oaths on Aes Sedai possible?

GonzoTheGreat
08-15-2011, 11:13 AM
Maybe what they need is more of a Hippocratic Oath (do no harm), of course this would be an even harder sale to the Blood (loss of military power).

Or they could swear to do no harm, save to fight shadowspawn, or to fight at the express command of the Empress.And why should Sea Folk Windfinders or Aiel Wise Ones swear such an oath?
For that matter, why should Elayne, queen of Andor, swear subservience to a foreign ruler?

As an alternative: why doesn't Tuon swear on the Oath Rod to obey the Emond's Field Village Council. That would be no less unreasonable, would it?

The problem with channelers is that they will rule the world if left unchecked.The same can be said of any other group. In the real world, it has been said plenty of times of the Jews, for instance.

The evidence from the WOT shows that channelers can be checked very well by custom. The Sea Folk do not have a problem with channelers taking over their whole society, do they? And neither do the Aiel have this problem.

WinespringBrother
08-15-2011, 12:04 PM
The evidence from the WOT shows that channelers can be checked very well by custom. The Sea Folk do not have a problem with channelers taking over their whole society, do they? And neither do the Aiel have this problem.

What about the "custom" of False Dragons? :D Though presumably the 4th age will be free of those...

GonzoTheGreat
08-15-2011, 01:15 PM
I've just thought of another reason why an "obey the Empress" oath might be a bad idea. Consider the following scenario:
All channelers who are loyal to Rand, or willing to fight on his side against the Shadow, swear this oath and Rand does as well. Demandred catches Fortuona, and uses the 13+13 trick to turn her to the Shadow. The Empress orders the Dragon Reborn to serve the DO. The DO breaks free and destroys the universe.

Then what?

Kimon
08-15-2011, 01:19 PM
Three problems (for now) with this:

1. What happens if a channeler thinks that a command given by the Empress/Emperor is against the interests of the Empire?
Based on what we know, that could very easily kill that channeler.

2. What if there are two (or more) claimants to the throne, as is the case right now?
Would the channeler have to obey every claimant, or could she decide that someone "is not the true ruler"?



They could instead swear an oath to serve the Crystal Throne. That might stave off the trouble of rebel emperors/empresses, as whoever held the throne would be the only one who could claim suzerainty over the channelers, and that might lead us into your third query...

3. Why would Egwene and Logain swear this?

Perhaps this is explains both the Dragon's Peace and that troublesome Seanchan prophecy about the Dragon kneeling to the Crystal Throne. Rand forces the Aes Sedai and the Asha'man (i.e. Egwene and Logain) to serve him, and then in exchange he kneels to the Crystal Throne, making all channelers (including the Aiel Wise Ones on account of his role as Car'a'Carn, and the Sea Folk channelers on account of him being Coramoor) de facto vassals of the Crystal Throne. Thus is peace made between the three main powers (Rand, Tar Valon, and the Seanchan), and the alliance cemented for TG.

JOS
08-15-2011, 03:06 PM
The same can be said of any other group. In the real world, it has been said plenty of times of the Jews, for instance.

Last time I checked, Jews don't shoot fire from their hands or call lightning from the heavens. It is different, Randland is not the real world, and channelers have a distict advantange over all other people in the contest for power. During the Age of Legends, Aes Sedai wielded this power responsibly as servants of all. I do not feel that human nature in general lends itself to this in the Third Age. The Fourth Age could be different. If that be the case, no binding will be necessary. What concerns me is how to get from the current state of affairs, to a stable future, and trying to figure what RJ has planned for in between.

The Seanchan fear and loath the power of channelers, and as such treat them as animals. In this case, the attitude and treatment is paralleled in our world by similar treatment of certain groups with real or preceived power as you mentioned. I do not think that the Seanchan are right to think this way, but they do. Also, per the account of how the A'dam came to be, it seems the "Aes Sedai" in Seanchan were Dreadlords, not Aes Sedai after the traditional sense. So their attitude toward channelers is skewed by their history and limited contact with "good" channelers.

And why should Sea Folk Windfinders or Aiel Wise Ones swear such an oath?
For that matter, why should Elayne, queen of Andor, swear subservience to a foreign ruler?

Because in certain scenarios not doing so would be death and endless war. Swearing to the Empire assumes just that, an Empire. Elayne and Andor would have to be part of Seanchan to do so. Ruling her contry under the Empress as Beslan rules Altara under the Empress. Channelers swearing to the Empire only works if all governments are under the Empress, and all governments will only agree to such either under greaet duress, or with acceptable comprimise. Under duress would probably mean the leash anyway.

As an alternative: why doesn't Tuon swear on the Oath Rod to obey the Emond's Field Village Council. That would be no less unreasonable, would it?

Not a valid way to discount the theory, as that is just ludicrous fodder to make the idea sound stupid.

Swearing to the Empress is admittedly dangerous, swearing to the Empire could possibly prevent a civil war, or lead to hoards of channelers choking to death when they think too hard. Swearing to serve all is pretty general and could be wiggled around. And bound oaths do tend to kill you eventually too ... Do the Seanchan believe enough in the power of sworn oaths without binding to allow for a less dangerous comprimise? I think it is still a possibility, depite the risk and danger involved. More careful wording world be needed in this scenario.

The "Super Girls" have all questioned the necessity of bound oaths in general, and even though Egwene seems to have abandoned this line of thought, I think it is the only acceptable line of reasoning, long term. "Binding" in any form with any oath (or leash) limits choice, insinuates mistrust, and either enslaves (as with the a'dam or the DF hunters in the tower) and/or cuts down lifespan. In the long term, I think binding will go away, in the short term, an oath to serve is possible if it is only way to release those that are leashed. The transition from "some enslaved" to "all free" will probably be made gradually if it is made at all. I don't think RJ intended to finish with "all enslaved" as in Aviendha's vision, and he has built in potential to the storyline via Seta, Egeanin, Setalle, Mat, Tuon, etc to address the issue. It would be a shame to not at least start down the path of resolution in the last book.

So, I jawed on long enough, what do you think is most likely to happen? I have some ideas, but I have gone on long enough in this post ...

Zombie Sammael
08-15-2011, 03:14 PM
JOS - why do you think breaking a sworn oath would lead to death? As far as we know, no-one has ever managed to do it. Perhaps it would, but equally, it might have no consequences, or it might simply render the oath unsworn (literally just break it).

JOS
08-15-2011, 04:07 PM
Let me rephrase that, premature death. As in, the oaths kill you eventually by halving your lifespan.

Edit to Add: With the oath rod, contradictory oaths will kill, all oaths seem to cause premature death.

Zombie Sammael
08-15-2011, 04:16 PM
Let me rephrase that, premature death. As in, the oaths kill you eventually by halving your lifespan.

Edit to Add: With the oath rod, contradictory oaths will kill, all oaths seem to cause premature death.

I was referring to this:

choking to death when they think too hard

I guess that you were referring to an Oath to serve the Empress conflicting with one of the others, though, rather than what I was thinking of.

GonzoTheGreat
08-16-2011, 04:54 AM
Because in certain scenarios not doing so would be death and endless war.Which they've already had for thousands of years, fighting against the Shadow. Fighting on against the Dreadlord inspired Seanchan Empire would not be any worse, would it?
But eventually the result could be better, with actual freedom instead of universal slavery.

You seem to assume that all future rulers of the Seanchan would be as benevolent as Tuon (who tortures channelers for fun). If Semirhage Reborn were to ascend to the throne, with all channelers still sworn to obey, how bad could things get?

Enigma
08-16-2011, 06:55 AM
Just a few points. First the Aes Sedai in pre consolidation Seanchan were not Dreadlords, or at least I have not seen any suggestion that most of them were. Its likely that some served the Shadow but one can be evil without being a darkfriend. Just look at the Whitecloaks or even some of the non dark Aes Sedai of the White Tower.

Secondly I was not suggesting that non Seanchan channelers swear an oath to serve the Empress, just those in captured territory. So Rand Egwene, Logain etc would be outside their jurisdiction unless the land they lived in joine the Seanchan empire or was captured.

Lastly the Seanchan seem to have a legal system. I've not seen any Seanchan lawyers but there is reference to guilt having to be proven etc. Instead of swearing to serve the empress who could turn out to be a tyrant how about searing to uphold the law. This does leave the problem that the law can be changed by the Empress who is an absolute ruler but I would suspect change will have to come one step at a time with a constitutional monarch comming later.

Charlz Guybon
08-16-2011, 08:12 AM
Although zen-Rand bowing is probably more likely at this point, there is a lot more drama and conflict involved in the revelation that the Seanchan have been manipulated by Ishamael. Why, such a revelation could cause them to question their entire culture in much the same way as the Aiel were forced to. Such a revelation might force re-examination of even long-standing institutions to do with the One Power, for example....
How would this be exposed though? Moridin isn't likely to pop up and shot "it was me and here's the proof!" What could Rand do to prove it? Aside from what Moridin's told him he doesn't know much. Hell, he doesn't know anything but the vaguest outline of Seanchan history.

He has Justice, but what's he supposed to do with that?

JOS
08-16-2011, 10:41 AM
Just a few points. First the Aes Sedai in pre consolidation Seanchan were not Dreadlords, or at least I have not seen any suggestion that most of them were. Its likely that some served the Shadow but one can be evil without being a darkfriend. Just look at the Whitecloaks or even some of the non dark Aes Sedai of the White Tower.

From TGH, Damane (Chapter 40)

"When Luthair Paendrag Mondwin, son of the Hawkwing, first faced the Armies of the Night, he found many among them who called themselves Aes Sedai. They contended for power among themselves and used the One Power on the field of battle. One such, a woman named Deain, who thought she could do better serving the Emperor - he was not Emperor then, of course - since he had no Aes Sedai in his armies, came to him with a device she had made..."

Secondly I was not suggesting that non Seanchan channelers swear an oath to serve the Empress, just those in captured territory. So Rand Egwene, Logain etc would be outside their jurisdiction unless the land they lived in joine the Seanchan empire or was captured.

I think this is reasonable. I was thinking the whole bananna, world government, one Emipire! But this is more reasonable.

Lastly the Seanchan seem to have a legal system. I've not seen any Seanchan lawyers but there is reference to guilt having to be proven etc. Instead of swearing to serve the empress who could turn out to be a tyrant how about searing to uphold the law. This does leave the problem that the law can be changed by the Empress who is an absolute ruler but I would suspect change will have to come one step at a time with a constitutional monarch comming later.

Swearing to serve the law, I like that, has problems, as you pointed out, but it could work.