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Crispin's Crispian
07-30-2011, 09:47 PM
I've been rereading TGH, and came across this POV from Moiraine. It comes after Mat is Healed from Fain's escape attack, and thus after the Horn is stolen.

How will this affect matters? Moiraine wondered. He is not necessary with the Horn gone, and yet...

Why was Mat necessary before the Horn was stolen? Is this just foreshadowing, or was Moiraine planning all along for Mat to sound the Horn of Valere?

Or is this just referencing her plan for Mat and Perrin to take the Horn to Illian?

Weird Harold
07-30-2011, 11:29 PM
I've been rereading TGH, and came across this POV from Moiraine. It comes after Mat is Healed from Fain's escape attack, and thus after the Horn is stolen.



Why was Mat necessary before the Horn was stolen? Is this just foreshadowing, or was Moiraine planning all along for Mat to sound the Horn of Valere?

Or is this just referencing her plan for Mat and Perrin to take the Horn to Illian?
It is a reference to Mat beng tied to the Horn and being the only one who can sound it. With the Horn stolen, Mat is somewhat useless to any plans she might have had for the Horn.

GonzoTheGreat
07-31-2011, 04:51 AM
It is a reference to Mat beng tied to the Horn and being the only one who can sound it. With the Horn stolen, Mat is somewhat useless to any plans she might have had for the Horn.Which makes sense, if and only if Moraine knew in advance that Mat was going to blow the horn after they'd stolen it from Turak, who had stolen it from Fain, who had stolen it from Rand, who had stolen it from Fain, who had stolen it from Siuan just before the scene we're contemplating now.

Of course, it would indeed explain a lot if Moiraine had gotten her hands on a complete "Wheel of Time series" during her research. Did RJ ever watch Spaceballs, I wonder?

Terez
07-31-2011, 08:20 AM
Or is this just referencing her plan for Mat and Perrin to take the Horn to Illian?
I asked Brandon, and he said this.

Crispin's Crispian
07-31-2011, 05:46 PM
I asked Brandon, and he said this.
Well ok then. Thanks for asking him. ;-)

the_collective
08-01-2011, 03:52 PM
I asked Brandon, and he said this.

Uh... Am I crazy or did Terez give a partial sentence as an answer w/no link where it appears there should be one?

An oversight, I'm sure. I'd like to read whatever it was you were pointing out, Terez. :)

GonzoTheGreat
08-01-2011, 04:05 PM
Uh... Am I crazy or did Terez give a partial sentence as an answer w/no link where it appears there should be one?Obviously, that is an inclusive or (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusive_or).

What Terez was pointing out:
Brandon on Twitter - 18 January 2011
Much has been made of Moiraine thinking of Mat: "He is not necessary with the Horn gone." (This is long before he's blown it.)
Brandon
I think it's a lot of fuss over nothing. Her plan was to have Mat, eager for adventure, draw Rand into carrying the Horn south.

Marie Curie 7
08-01-2011, 10:57 PM
I asked Brandon, and he said this.

Brandon on Twitter - 18 January 2011
Much has been made of Moiraine thinking of Mat: "He is not necessary with the Horn gone." (This is long before he's blown it.)

Brandon
I think it's a lot of fuss over nothing. Her plan was to have Mat, eager for adventure, draw Rand into carrying the Horn south.

I know Brandon said that. However, I wonder if Moiraine's thoughts about Mat were also a result of Moiraine knowing something about Min's viewings of Mat:

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 15 - Strangers and Friends

"She says I see pieces of the Pattern. " Min gave a little laugh and shook her head. "Sounds too grand, to me. I just see things when I look at people, and sometimes I know what they mean. I look at a man and a woman who've never even talked to one another, and I know they'll marry. And they do. That sort of thing. She wanted me to look at you. All of you together."

Rand shivered. "And what did you see?"

"When you're all in a group? Sparks swirling around you, thousands of them, and a big shadow, darker than midnight. It's so strong, I almost wonder why everybody can't see it. The sparks are trying to fill the shadow, and the shadow is trying to swallow the sparks." She shrugged. "You are all tied together in something dangerous, but I can't make any more of it."

"All of us?" Rand muttered. "Egwene, too? But they weren't after – I mean —"

Min did not seem to notice his slip. "The girl —? She's part of it. And the gleeman. All of you. You're in love with her." He stared at her. "I can tell that even without seeing any images. She loves you, too, but she's not for you, or you for her either. Not the way you both want. "

"What's that supposed to mean?"

"When I look at her, I see the same as when I look at ... Mistress Alys. Other things, things I don't understand, too, but I know what that means. She won't refuse it."

"This is all foolishness," Rand said uncomfortably. His headache was fading to numbness; his head felt packed with wool. He wanted to get away from this girl and the things she saw. And yet ..." What do you see when you look at ... the rest of us?"

"All sorts of things," Min said, with a grin as if she knew what he really wanted to ask. "The War ... ah ... Master Andra has seven ruined towers around his head, and a babe in a cradle holding a sword, and ... " She shook her head. "Men like him – you understand? – always have so many images they crowd one another. The strongest images around the gleeman are a man – not him – juggling fire, and the White Tower, and that doesn't make any sense at all for a man. The strongest things I see about the big, curly-haired fellow are a wolf, and a broken crown, and trees flowering all around him. And the other one – a red eagle, an eye on a balance scale, a dagger with a ruby, a horn, and a laughing face. There are other things, but you see what I mean. This time I can't make up or down out of any of it." She waited then, still grinning, until he finally cleared his throat and asked.

If Min told Moiraine the same things she told Rand about her viewings of Mat, she might have had at least some inkling that Mat was in some way tied to the Horn of Valere. Assuming she made the connection between the horn in Min's viewing and the Horn of Valere, that is.

Terez
08-02-2011, 08:10 AM
Yes, but in that context it doesn't make sense either, unless Moiraine really believed that, because the Horn was gone, Mat was no longer necessary. If the Horn was important to him, then the disappearance of the Horn should have made him all that much more important.

FelixPax
08-03-2011, 02:18 PM
I've been rereading TGH, and came across this POV from Moiraine. It comes after Mat is Healed from Fain's escape attack, and thus after the Horn is stolen.



Why was Mat necessary before the Horn was stolen? Is this just foreshadowing, or was Moiraine planning all along for Mat to sound the Horn of Valere

Matrim Cauthon needed his life to be saved by multiple Aes Sedai, for one (TDR, Ch.18). Whatever Mat Cauthon has thought of Aes Sedai across the series, they save his soul from being cut from the Light and stolen by Mordeth. Who chose to run around Aridhol and take a Red Ruby Dagger? Mat.

In essence, Mat's very (flesh) life only exists because of these surviving Aes Sedai:


Siuan, Leane, Alanna, Moiraine, Verin, Serafelle, Brendas, Nynaeve are among the few current Aes Sedai known to be still live as of Towers of Midnight book whom have healed Matrim Cauthon at any one point in WoT Series.



His freedom from Mordeth, was gained only because these Aes Sedai acted to aid Mat Cauthon.


Question is can Matrim Cauthon return the favorite and save Aes Sedai from his wife Fortuona's silver a'dam leashes?


Can Mat Cauthon accept Aes Sedai as his "followers"? Can Mat accept a scandalous plural marriage to make the impossible possible?

FelixPax
08-03-2011, 03:07 PM
Why was Mat necessary before the Horn was stolen?


In tEotW book, Matrim Cauthon's character introduced to readers the concept of the Old Blood:


“Carai an Caldazar,” Moiraine said. They all twisted to stare at her. “Carai an Ellisande. Al Ellisande. For the honor of the Red Eagle. For the honor of the Rose of the Sun. The Rose of the Sun. The ancient warcry of Manetheren, and the warcry of its last king. Eldrene was called the Rose of the Sun.” Moiraine’s smile took in Egwene and Mat both, though her gaze may have rested a moment longer on him than on her. “The blood of Arad’s line is still strong in the Two Rivers. The old blood still sings.”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 18 "The Caemlyn Road" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Moiraine (speaking), Mat Cauthon, Perrin, Nynaeve, Egwene, Lan, Thom


Plus the character of Matrim Cauthon was a prism through which readers learned that the Past and Present could be one and the very same:

For a moment the Amyrlin seemed to consider, perhaps what to say, perhaps whether to say anything. “For a time,” she said finally, “I believe the past and the present were one. He was there, and he was here, and he knew who we were. He commanded us to release him.” She paused again. “ ‘I am a free man, Aes Sedai. I am no Aes Sedai meat.’ That is what he said.”


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 22 "The Price of The Ring" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; during Mat's healing & severing from the Red Ruby Dagger


Time. The idea that Past and Present can exist at the same time, is a paradox which Matrim Cauthon's character brings to the forefront. Mierin mentions this possibility to Hurin, the book before (TGH) this above scene. In essence, Mat helps to make what Mierin (TGH) and Birgitte's claim (tEotW) about Time earlier to be more concrete & real.

Marie Curie 7
08-04-2011, 08:40 PM
Yes, but in that context it doesn't make sense either, unless Moiraine really believed that, because the Horn was gone, Mat was no longer necessary. If the Horn was important to him, then the disappearance of the Horn should have made him all that much more important.

Yes. It made sense to me in some convoluted way when I posted, but it no longer does. So..."Wait a minute. Strike that. Reverse it." Or something.

Crispin's Crispian
08-05-2011, 01:05 PM
It still isn't 100% clear to me, though. Unless she thought Fain et al were going to take the Horn to Illian, Moiraine's plan was simply delayed. Mat was still important, just not right away.

But then again, if she had any inkling about his future tie to the Horn, she still wouldn't think him unimportant.

Ah well.