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Zombie Sammael
08-03-2011, 04:02 PM
Or, "Just how dumb are Elayne and Nynaeve*?"

In LOC, Elayne and Nynaeve used need to find the Bowl of Winds, a ter'angreal that fixed the weather. It seems pretty clear that their initial request of "something that will help Rand" was interpreted as "something that will help the world" because Rand is tied to the land, etc. What they got was the Bowl of Winds, but they had no way of knowing where in Ebou Dar it actually was.

Now, one of the rules of TAR is you can never find the same need twice. Along comes Egwene. Surely once they have Eggy and know how travelling works, they could just use need to find the house where the bowl was (a slightly different need), learn the area well enough in TAR, and travel to it? Or, if for the reason that need had already brought them there when searching for the bowl, couldn't Egwene have just used need to do the same thing, since she hadn't done it before?

Any thoughts on why they did the entire Ebou Dar plot thread rather than just doing this?

*And Egwene, but let's not Egwene the thread right off the bat.

Enigma
08-03-2011, 06:41 PM
Its accpted that Nynaeve & Elayne can't use need again to find the bowl. I wonder if any one else can use the same need to duplicate the same results. Perhaps once TAR takes someone to an item using need it blocks off anyone else using need to get the same results.

As for why it played out the way it did? Aside from the bowl, Nynaeve & co had to find and hook up with the kin not to mention wait long enought for the gholam to be put in place and for them to finally realise that Mat was more that a lovable rogue and that he was actually capable in his own right.

The way RJ plotted things, certain conditions had to be met before the story line for the individual characters could move on, and he had to find filler in some places so that other events kept up. The whole Perrin & Faile captive plot line is another example. Perrin had to find Faile before he could master the wolfdream and himself. If he did that too early next thing he shows up with Dark Rand etc

Kimon
08-03-2011, 07:18 PM
Or, "Just how dumb are Elayne and Nynaeve*?"

In LOC, Elayne and Nynaeve used need to find the Bowl of Winds, a ter'angreal that fixed the weather. It seems pretty clear that their initial request of "something that will help Rand" was interpreted as "something that will help the world" because Rand is tied to the land, etc. What they got was the Bowl of Winds, but they had no way of knowing where in Ebou Dar it actually was.

Now, one of the rules of TAR is you can never find the same need twice. Along comes Egwene. Surely once they have Eggy and know how travelling works, they could just use need to find the house where the bowl was (a slightly different need), learn the area well enough in TAR, and travel to it? Or, if for the reason that need had already brought them there when searching for the bowl, couldn't Egwene have just used need to do the same thing, since she hadn't done it before?

Any thoughts on why they did the entire Ebou Dar plot thread rather than just doing this?

*And Egwene, but let's not Egwene the thread right off the bat.

The importance of Setalle should not, as Enigma pointed out (albeit by focusing on the Kin), be overlooked. Indeed her importance, vis--vis the civilizing of Fortuona and the Seanchan has, hopefully, not yet come to conclusion. Yet even leaving that aside, there is another crucial problem. Egwene's role, and hence what she would need to assist in the Light's victory, was different than theirs. As such, if she used need in TAR she likely could not have led them to the weather machine, since they needed it, she did not.

FelixPax
08-04-2011, 03:29 AM
Any thoughts on why they did the entire Ebou Dar plot thread rather than just doing this?


To answer this question would require, digging into each and every Character's story plot who was a part of the scenes in Ebou Dar, Altara. Instead of doing this now, you should look up the EXACT thoughts stated in Lord of Chaos, Chapter 13 again.


Rand. The Dragon.
Two separate thoughts, possibly two separate individuals were mentioned. Rand and The Dragon.


That particular use of NEED, was not limited to the present either. Much of it was set in the then distance Future. AMoL Book.

GonzoTheGreat
08-04-2011, 05:13 AM
As an extra complication, they kept changing what they were looking for.
"Something to convince the Hall not to go to Elaida", "something to convince the AS to help Rand", "a ter'angreal not in Tar Valon", and so forth.

Small wonder they didn't manage to retrace that process when they tried again.

Zombie Sammael
08-04-2011, 05:39 AM
Obviously I know why they did Ebou Dar from a story perspective, I was wondering why they did it from a practical point of view. However, that thought does raise the interesting idea that using Need in TAR is akin to working out where the Wheel or the Pattern (or the Plot, heh) wants you to go next; under that logic the only character who might have had any success with using Need in the same way might have been Aviendha.

GonzoTheGreat
08-04-2011, 06:13 AM
Obviously I know why they did Ebou Dar from a story perspective, I was wondering why they did it from a practical point of view. However, that thought does raise the interesting idea that using Need in TAR is akin to working out where the Wheel or the Pattern (or the Plot, heh) wants you to go next; under that logic the only character who might have had any success with using Need in the same way might have been Aviendha.Verin did pretty well in figuring out where the Pattern wanted her to go.

Zombie Sammael
08-04-2011, 06:17 AM
Verin did pretty well in figuring out where the Pattern wanted her to go.

Yes, but of the Dreamwalkers, the only one who might have been able to use Need to get to the Bowl who hadn't already done it would be Aviendha, since the Pattern also required her to go to Ebou Dar and search.

GonzoTheGreat
08-04-2011, 06:22 AM
But Aviendha is not a Dreamwalker. No more than Verin is, at least. Both have walked in the Dream using ter'angreal, but neither has an outstanding Talent for it.

Edited to add:
And how about Mat?
Surely you're not going with the sexist notion that only women could be needy.

Zombie Sammael
08-04-2011, 07:58 AM
But Aviendha is not a Dreamwalker. No more than Verin is, at least. Both have walked in the Dream using ter'angreal, but neither has an outstanding Talent for it.

Edited to add:
And how about Mat?
Surely you're not going with the sexist notion that only women could be needy.

Nope, I was going with the somewhat inaccurate notion that Mat wasn't a Dreamwalker and Avi was, based purely on the fact that Avi is a WO in training. But it's also true that we've not seen her use TAR very much.

Ishara
08-04-2011, 08:58 AM
Yeah, I'd say that's a misnomer. They are not mutually associated concepts. An Aiel Dreamwalker must be a Wise One, but not all Wise Ones are Dreamwalkers. In fact, of all the hundreds (thousands?) of Wise Ones, we know of only the 4 (now 3), at least on the non-Shaido side of the house.

Aviendha has even less experience in TAR than Nynaeve and Elayne.

kabkaba
08-04-2011, 09:53 AM
On a sidenote, I don't know if this was explained anywhere but need is the key to finding Green Man's place and one can only visit it once. But Moiraine could do it twice because the need was really strong and world's fate rested on their trip. There is a strong connection here.

Zombie Sammael
08-04-2011, 10:01 AM
On a sidenote, I don't know if this was explained anywhere but need is the key to finding Green Man's place and one can only visit it once. But Moiraine could do it twice because the need was really strong and world's fate rested on their trip. There is a strong connection here.

Yes. It rather suggests that if there was a particularly strong need (i.e. the girls had no success finding the bowl and were truly desperate, the world in a parlous state because of the drought) they might have been able to use need to locate it again.

the_collective
08-04-2011, 02:15 PM
On a sidenote, I don't know if this was explained anywhere but need is the key to finding Green Man's place and one can only visit it once. But Moiraine could do it twice because the need was really strong and world's fate rested on their trip. There is a strong connection here.

CONJECTURE:
I'm fairly certain Moiraine only reached the Green Man's place twice because the 2nd time she was with the Dragon, who channeled saidin to call the Eye of the World to his position in the Blight (not even up into the Mountains of Dhoom yet, much less past them, as was the case every single other time the Eye was found, according to Moiraine) while using Need in the real world, a Talent of the Dragon's soul (as demonstrated in the prologue titled Dragonmount).

My two cents.

FelixPax
08-04-2011, 06:15 PM
Obviously I know why they did Ebou Dar from a story perspective, I was wondering why they did it from a practical point of view.

Knowledge limitations?



Need

However, that thought does raise the interesting idea that using Need in TAR is akin to working out where the Wheel or the Pattern (or the Plot, heh) wants you to go next; under that logic the only character who might have had any success with using Need in the same way might have been Aviendha.

Nynaeve choose what to look for when using Need. She created a criteria filter, that takes a Voice, an independent will.


Elayne gave her a wry look. “But if we try again, won’t it just bring us right back here? Unless . . . unless the Wise Ones told you how to exclude a place from the search.”

They had not—they had not been eager to tell her anything at all—but in a place where you open a lock by thinking it was open, anything should be possible. “That’s exactly what we do. We fix it in our heads that what we want isn’t in Tar Valon.” Frowning at the shelves, she added, “And I’ll wager it is a ter’angreal nobody knows how to use.” Though how that would convince the Hall to support Rand, she could not imagine.

“We need a ter’angreal that isn’t in Tar Valon,” Elayne said as if convincing herself. “Very well. We go on.”

She held out her hands, and after a moment Nynaeve took them. Nynaeve was not sure how she had become the one to insist on continuing. She wanted to leave Salidar, not find a reason to stay. But if it assured that the Salidar Aes Sedai would support Rand . . .

Need. A ter’angreal. Not in Tar Valon. Need.


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 13 "Under the Dust" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view; with Elayne in a World of Dreams, using Need.


The Pattern does not determine all; as the Sharans are claimed to believe (Graendal). Need is not an one trick mule.




Weather Sense, Dice Rolling--Ta'veren, Dragon


Ever wonder about Nynaeve's "weather sense" going crazy, during her time in Salidar, Altara? Or why Nynaeve did not notice any 'wind or storm' occurring her time with the Traveling Circus?


Are Ta'veren sources of a Storm or Wind? Is the true Dragon the largest source for Storms? Separately, when the Seals weaken can non-Ta'veren individuals created their very own smaller Storms or Wind through a Strong Will of belief (e.g. The Creature, ToM Prologue; Rand al'Thor's belief effects the area's around his three lovers Min, Elayne, Aveindha, ToM book)? Seals weakening its claimed allow the Dark One to create Storms or alter the weather, as well (e.g. Chosen claims; The Creature). Of course, then again the very act of channeling the Power can create Wind, Lightning and Storms (e.g. Windfinders, Seanchan damane, Rand al'Thor, Siuan et al).


Worst of all, her weather sense told her a storm was on the way, told her the wind should be howling outside and the rain sheeting down so thick no one could see ten feet. It had taken her some time to understand about the times she Listened to the Wind and seemed to hear lies. At least, she thought she understood. Another kind of storm was coming, not wind or rain. She had no proof, but she would eat her slippers if Mat Cauthon was not part of it somehow. She wanted to sleep for a month, a year, to forget worries until Lan wakened her with a kiss like the Sun King with Talia.


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 21 "Swovan Night" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view; her thoughts


When one's in the midst of a Hurricane, the Winds are silent. The Eye of the World, The Eye of the Storm. When one's near the Eye of World, yet not within the Eye, the Winds are quite heavy. When one's not moving, and a Hurricane passes by, the Winds can shift directions quite quickly.


Graendal ironically enough felt and noticed this very thing in Arad Doman, when the four Ta'verens passed through the country. One heading southwards to Tarabon; One heading to Tar Valon; One heading to Tear on foot & horse, ahead of another One trailing. Four separate Ta'verens, whom originated and left near Arad Doman. Possibly four sources of Wind and Storms. The greatest possible source of Wind, being the true blind Dragon's own Ta'vernness, heading southwards towards Tarabon. Valan Luca.


One possible cause for Nynaeve's weather sense going haywire frequently across in TGH, TDR, LoC, ACoS, TPoD, KoD books is "men". Be it, the journeys and destinations of Rand, Perrin, Matrim Cauthon and Valan Luca.

Yet since leaving Emond’s Field, Nynaeve’s ability had grown, or changed. The storms she felt sometimes had to do with men rather than wind, now.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 10 "Secrets" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with Nynaeve, Elayne, Verin, Hurin, Mat Cauthon near Tar Valon.


I'd say Nynaeve al'Meara's weather sense is equally as important as Matrim Cauthon's hearing dice roll inside his skull.


If Nynaeve & Elayne did not decide or were pulled to Ebou Dar... literally the whole series outcome would be altered for the worst.

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 05:56 AM
Felix, your post gives me the notion that a ta'veren is rather like a storm in the pattern, and that this would be what Nynaeve would sense. I also find the comparison between Nynaeve's weather sense and Mat's head-dice interesting; listening to the wind of course is an act of the Power, while Mat's dice seem to have more to do with his luck and his ta'veren nature, although I have started wondering what their connection to the taint of Shadar Logoth might be or not be; they didn't appear until after he was "cured" (if cured he be) of his connection to the Dagger.

Crispin's Crispian
08-05-2011, 01:36 PM
CONJECTURE:
I'm fairly certain Moiraine only reached the Green Man's place twice because the 2nd time she was with the Dragon, who channeled saidin to call the Eye of the World to his position in the Blight (not even up into the Mountains of Dhoom yet, much less past them, as was the case every single other time the Eye was found, according to Moiraine) while using Need in the real world, a Talent of the Dragon's soul (as demonstrated in the prologue titled Dragonmount).

My two cents.

I think you're on to something. Rand definitely started channeling right before they found the Grove. I've been convinced for a long time that the Grove is part of Tel'aran'rhiod, so I wonder if Rand got to the Grove due to his own need to stop channeling.

Seeking the flame and the void, he railed at himself. Fool! You frightened, cowardly fool! You can't stay here, and you can't go back. Are you going to leave Egwene to face it alone? The void eluded him, forming, then shivering into a thousand points of light, re-forming and shattering again, each point burning into his bones until he quivered with the pain and thought he must burst open. Light help me, I can't go on. Light help me!
He was gathering the bay's reins to turn back, to face the Worms or anything rather than what lay ahead, when the nature of the land changed. Between one slope of a hill and the next, between crest and peak, the Blight was gone.
Rand was not just channeling, I think he might have been overdosing. His need was such that it called the Eye to them so he wouldn't burn out or blow everyone up.

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 04:28 PM
I think that instead of channeling, at that moment he was trying and failing to grasp the OP. It was that need (to master channeling) which was important.
Together with the need of the world, and some similar considerations, of course.

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 04:58 PM
I think that instead of channeling, at that moment he was trying and failing to grasp the OP. It was that need (to master channeling) which was important.
Together with the need of the world, and some similar considerations, of course.

The quote Crispin posted sounds more like channeling than failing to; a desperate struggle for survival.

Ishara
08-05-2011, 10:34 PM
The quote Crispin posted sounds more like channeling than failing to; a desperate struggle for survival.

But seizing the Source has also been described as such.

Zombie Sammael
08-06-2011, 05:19 AM
But seizing the Source has also been described as such.

Not sure what you mean - are you agreeing or disagreeing? With who?

Ishara
08-06-2011, 04:52 PM
I'm disagreeing with you. Crispin posted a quote, and you asserted that it sounded as if it described channeling more than it did trying and failing. I assert that the act of seizing the Source and channeling are often described in similar ways, therefore, the quote could equally be descriptive of trying to capture the Source.

Terez
08-06-2011, 04:54 PM
It's actually most consistent with the times when Rand has managed to grasp the Power but can't figure out how to use it (or what to use it for). This is what led to his little outburst in the Mountains of Mist at the beginning of TDR.

kielbasaj
08-09-2011, 01:53 PM
The way the void forms and shatters all the while seemingly stabbing him with points of light sounds consistent with drawing on the source to the point of burning himself out. Perhaps in trying to grasp the One Power he was actually succeeding but rather than holding it truthfully, he merely fluctuated between not holding it, to drawing all he could, breaking his concentration and starting again?