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yks 6nnetu hing
08-05-2011, 03:55 AM
Since these references come so close together I'm not sure if it's been discussed already. But, anyways, in tSR, during Rand's travel through the Glass Spires in Ruidean, he sees this:
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 26 - The Dedicated
Jonai stood at the edge of the cliff staring out westward over the sun sparkled water. A hundred leagues in that direction lay Comelle. Had lain Comelle. Comelle had clung to the mountains overlooking the sea. A hundred leagues west, where the sea now ran. If Alnora were still alive, perhaps it would have been easier to take. Without her dreams, he scarcely knew where to go or what to do. Without her, he hardly cared to live. He felt every gray hair as he turned to trudge back to the wagons, waiting a mile away. Fewer wagons, now, and showing wear. Fewer people, too, a handful of thousands where there had been tens. But too many for the remaining wagons. No one rode now save children too small to walk.

The BWB says about Comelle:

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
The coastal city of Comelle, third largest in the world, overlooked the sea with breathtaking splendor from its mountainside. Its immense glass, crystal and metal structures clung to the steep rock like a shining flower bursting from the stone. Adanza was reported to thrive with vitality in its beauty matched only by the vitality of its people. Even Tzora, the smallest of the major cities, was known for its multihued glass towers, in a wide variety of geometric shapes, which glittered like jewels in the sun.

then, when Perrin arrives in Two Rivers

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 28 - To the Tower of Ghenjei
From peak to peak he sped in blurred motion, calling, seeking. The mountains lay empty beneath him, except for deer and other game. Yet there were occasional signs of men. Ancient signs. Twice great carved figures took nearly an entire mountainside, and in another place strange angular letters two spans high had been incised across a cliff a shade too smooth and sheer. Weathering had worn away the figures' faces, and eyes less sharp than his might have taken the letters themselves for the work of wind and rain. Mountains and cliffs gave way to the Sand Hills, great rolling mounds sparsely covered with tough grass and stubborn bushes, once the shore of a great sea before the Breaking. And suddenly he saw another man, atop a sandy hill.

Of course, it's possible that there was more than one great inland sea before the Breaking and it's well known that mountains came and went during the Breaking, so it's somewhat unlikely that the Mountains of Mist are the same mountains where Comelle used to be, but it does seem quite possible that perhaps Manetheren was previously known as Comelle or founded primarily by the fugitives from Comelle. thoughts? ideas?

FelixPax
08-05-2011, 04:54 AM
Now that's quite a tough puzzle to try to figure out: Comelle's location.


I'm not so sure the Sand Hills is the place, where Comelle was located.


Off-hand two other places come to mind:


Windbiter's Finger
West of Arad Doman to Saldaea's coastline



Of course, there's a problem with the 2nd option I gave above. Saldaea considered a Northern place, yet Arad Doman orientation is more fuzzy in the larger scheme of things. Wasn't the land still being altered through, during Jonai pov?


Granted ghosts held repeated funeral ceremonies over the ocean waters off Bandar Eban, Arad Doman in ToM book. Implies a civilization was located there in past, where water now lies.



Clues: Items found in the Ocean



Cuendillar was found off Windbiter's Finger, according to Mother Guenna (TDR).

Amyrlin's study possesses stone salvaged from a nameless city swallowed by the Sea of Storms. It's referenced at least twice.


Stone like glittering pearls framed the tall, arched windows that let onto the balcony overlooking the Amyrlin’s private garden, the only stone like it known, salvaged from a nameless city swallowed by the Sea of Storms during the Breaking of the World. A room of power, a reflection of Amyrlins who had made thrones dance to their calling for nearly three thousand years. And they did not even ask her opinion.

The Fires of Heaven, Prologue "The First Sparks Fall" -- Elaida pov


Gleaming pearly stone framed tall arched windows that let onto the balcony overlooking the Amyrlin’s private garden; that stone had been salvaged from a nameless city submerged in the Sea of Storms during the Breaking of the World, and no one had ever found its like elsewhere.

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 7 "A Matter of Thought" -- Elayne pov; in TAR

Ever notice how Siuan has more information about this Pearly Stone or Glittering Pearls material, than Elayne does?


Did Siuan learn of the cuendillar found off Windbiter's Finger during a prior trip to Tear? So is this nameless city in the ocean, Comelle or not?


Clue: Sa'angreal on Land

If one's to build a giant female sa'angreal, wouldn't be logic to try to build it near a major city?
Was the Tremalking land mass possibly once connected to Comelle? Or not?
Perhaps Tremalking was on the other side of that former Inland Sea, from Comelle? (Conjecture)

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 05:18 AM
If one's to build a giant female sa'angreal, wouldn't be logic to try to build it near a major city?
Was the Tremalking land mass possibly once connected to Comelle? Or not?
Perhaps Tremalking was on the other side of that former Inland Sea, from Comelle? (Conjecture)

Not if you were building the most powerful sa'angreal ever made for a woman during a time of war. It would be the equivalent of building a nuclear power plant near to a major population centre, even with the added safety measure of the access key.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-05-2011, 05:19 AM
the pearly stone seems to refer more to Paaran Disen:

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
According to all sources, the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends had a very loose sort of organization. To what extent that organization was part of the world government is not known; clearly the Aes Sedai were highly influential, with considerable power, at least at times, but equally clearly they were not the entire government and did not necessarily dominate it. They had their own internal governing structure through the Hall of the Servants, which was the core of the guild that controlled and regulated all those who could channel. This guild had branches in every city, town and village that housed Aes Sedai. In large cities the guild hall was usually an impressive building. In small towns or villages the guild often met in someone’s home, temporarily dedicated for that purpose. The main Hall of the Servants, located in the capital city of Paaran Disen, was described in one holographic fragment as having “massive columned entrances, large ornate doorways, and polished floors of glowing white elstone.”

Of course, that doesn't mean that elstone wasn't used at Comelle, it just means that Paaran Disen was famous for it, had a lot of it - enough to wash ashore thousands of years later.

Terez
08-05-2011, 05:54 AM
Of course, it's possible that there was more than one great inland sea before the Breaking and it's well known that mountains came and went during the Breaking, so it's somewhat unlikely that the Mountains of Mist are the same mountains where Comelle used to be, but it does seem quite possible that perhaps Manetheren was previously known as Comelle or founded primarily by the fugitives from Comelle. thoughts? ideas?
It seems that the Aiel were on the shore of the Aryth when the comment was made, which would mean that Comelle was however many leagues west of, say, Arad Doman or Toman Head. The Mountains of Mist are probably the same distance in the other direction. They are definitely pre-Breaking mountains, as opposed to the Spine of the World, but the sea they bordered has dried out, and so if Comelle had been there (again, unlikely the Aiel were that confused about where it had been), then it wouldn't be buried under water - it would have ruins in the Mountains of Mist. The Sand Hills are on the eastern side of the mountains, so the area of the Two Rivers is part of what was once under water, and Comelle, far to the west, must have been on the shore of a different sea.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-05-2011, 06:13 AM
It seems that the Aiel were on the shore of the Aryth when the comment was made, which would mean that Comelle was however many leagues west of, say, Arad Doman or Toman Head. The Mountains of Mist are probably the same distance in the other direction. They are definitely pre-Breaking mountains, as opposed to the Spine of the World, but the sea they bordered has dried out, and so if Comelle had been there (again, unlikely the Aiel were that confused about where it had been), then it wouldn't be buried under water - it would have ruins in the Mountains of Mist. The Sand Hills are on the eastern side of the mountains, so the area of the Two Rivers is part of what was once under water, and Comelle, far to the west, must have been on the shore of a different sea.

you're right, it's very possible they were on the shore of Aryth, Then again, it's possible they were on the shore of some other sparkling expanse of water. My main question is, how long did the breaking of the world last? The BWB says:
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Breaking of the World
Various fragmentary sources put the actual duration of the Breaking – that is, the major geological and climatic upheavals – at anywhere from 239 to 344 years. Since these sources date from the days between the end of the Breaking and the founding of the compact of the Ten Nations, it is possible that some of these writers had access to still earlier source material, but none can be taken as definitive. So an estimation of a couple of hundred years. Now, since Jonai wasn't a channeler he would have had a normal lifespan. He's seen as an adult when the Aiel set off from (I think) Paaran Disen, which makes the time of the quote.... no more than 50-70 years from the beginning of the Breaking, allowing for some years of the Breaking to already have lasted when he left with the Aiel. It's entirely possible that he was looking at the same sea where Comelle had been, from the other shore of the sea - just the sea hadn't completely dried out yet (that's the way I actually read the original quote to begin with)

on a different note, I didn't know that the Mountains of Mist predate the Breaking. what cool stuff must be found there... such as Comelle :p

Terez
08-05-2011, 06:33 AM
you're right, it's very possible they were on the shore of Aryth, Then again, it's possible they were on the shore of some other sparkling expanse of water. My main question is, how long did the breaking of the world last? The BWB says:
So an estimation of a couple of hundred years. Now, since Jonai wasn't a channeler he would have had a normal lifespan. He's seen as an adult when the Aiel set off from (I think) Paaran Disen, which makes the time of the quote.... no more than 50-70 years from the beginning of the Breaking, allowing for some years of the Breaking to already have lasted when he left with the Aiel.
Normal lifespans were much longer at the time. Jonai was 63 years old when the Aiel first left Paaran Disen, and the Breaking began before he was born.

Jonai hurried down the empty streets, trying not to look at shattered buildings and dead chora trees. All dead. At least the last of the long abandoned jo-cars had been hauled away. Aftershocks still troubled the ground beneath his feet. He wore his work clothes, his cadin'sor, of course, though the work he had been given was nothing he had been trained for. He was sixty-three, in the prime of life, not yet old enough for gray hairs, but he felt a tired old man.
So the Breaking had been going on for at least 70 years when they left Paaran Disen, and the quote in question was probably about ten years later.

ETA:

on a different note, I didn't know that the Mountains of Mist predate the Breaking. what cool stuff must be found there... such as Comelle
This came up in KOD:

Vanin made a sound like he was swallowing his tongue. “Find another pass?” he muttered. “Find another pass, the man says. You don’t just go find another pass in new mountains like the Damonas. Why do you think I only knew the one?” He was shaken to admit that much. Before this, he had been adamant that he had only heard of it.

“What are you talking about?” Mat demanded, and Vanin explained. At great length, for him.

“An Aes Sedai explained it to me, once. You see, there’s old mountains. They was there before the Breaking, maybe on the bottom of the sea or the like. They have passes all over, broad and gentle. You can ride into those and as long you keep your head and your direction and have enough supplies, sooner or later you come out the other side. And then there’s mountains made during the Breaking.” The fat man turned his head and spat copiously. “Passes in those are narrow, twisty things, and sometimes they aren’t really what you’d call passes at all. Ride into one of those, and you can wander around till your food runs out trying to find a way to the other side. Loss of that pass is going to hurt a lot of folks who use it for what you might call untaxed goods, and men’ll die before they find a new one that gets them all the way through. We go into the Damonas with that pass gone, likely we’ll all die, too. Them as doesn’t turn back in time and hasn’t gotten their heads so turned around they can’t find the way back.”
I also took a geology course, and I know enough to say that the description of the Mountains of Mist is that of old mountains, like the Smokies, and the description of the Spine is much more similar to the Himalayas, some of the newest mountains in the world. And of course, the Spine is much newer than the Himalayas. I could be wrong, though. It may be that the Mountains of Mist are new, too.

Ishara
08-05-2011, 06:45 AM
I'm searching for it now, but as I recall there was mention of one of the boys seeing a mountain (maybe in the ranges of Kinslayer's Dagger?) with strange ruins a long way up, and verin saying something about an old city?

Gah. So vague...

ETA: It's Chapter 28 of tGH, for SURE. I just can't find it right now...

yks 6nnetu hing
08-05-2011, 06:49 AM
Normal lifespans were much longer at the time. Jonai was 63 years old when the Aiel first left Paaran Disen, and the Breaking began before he was born.


So the Breaking had been going on for at least 70 years when they left Paaran Disen, and the quote in question was probably about ten years later.:o I knew that. My only excuse is, I need a weekend, the old brain's fizzled.

ETA:


This came up in KOD:


I also took a geology course, and I know enough to say that the description of the Mountains of Mist is that of old mountains, like the Smokies, and the description of the Spine is much more similar to the Himalayans, some of the newest mountains in the world. And of course, the Spine is much newer than the Himalayans. I could be wrong, though. It may be that the Mountains of Mist are new, too.


hmm... ok, so if not Comelle, what WAS there before the Breaking? something must still remain, no?

Terez
08-05-2011, 07:15 AM
hmm... ok, so if not Comelle, what WAS there before the Breaking? something must still remain, no?
Fish bones. :D No really, I'm sure there are some ruins of some sort in the Mountains, but they are unexplored at the moment because it's considered bad luck to go in the Mountains in the Two Rivers, and the west coast nations are mostly settled along the coast. The Ghealdanin and the Amadicians might know, but we don't see much of them, and Perrin indicates in TDR that the superstition is not limited to the Two Rivers. And later, Faile:

"Every queen of Manetheren was an Aes Sedai, and the king the Warder bound to her. I can't imagine a place like that, but that is what the books say. It was a large land – most of Andor and Ghealdan and more besides – but the capital, the city itself, was in the Mountains of Mist. That is where I think the Horn is. Unless you four lead me to it."

His hackles stirred. She was lecturing him as if he were an untaught village lout. "You'll not find the Horn or Manetheren. The city was destroyed during the Trolloc Wars, when the last queen drew too much of the One Power to destroy the Dreadlords who had killed her husband." Moiraine had told him the names of that king and queen, but he did not remember them.

"Not in Manetheren, farmboy," she said calmly, "though a land such as that would make a good hiding place. But there were other nations, other cities, in the Mountains of Mist, so old that not even Aes Sedai remember them. And think of all those stories about it being bad luck to enter the mountains. What better place for the Horn to be hidden than in one of those forgotten cities."

I'm searching for it now, but as I recall there was mention of one of the boys seeing a mountain (maybe in the ranges of Kinslayer's Dagger?) with strange ruins a long way up, and verin saying something about an old city?
Not Verin. Asmodean:

High on the other side, so far up that he was not sure he was seeing what he thought, just below the snow line, stood something even stranger. Something that made the first monument of a few thousand years a commonplace. He could have sworn it was the remnants of shattered buildings, shining gray against the darker mountain, and stranger still, what appeared to be a dock of the same material, as for ships, slanting drunkenly down the mountain. If he was not imagining it, that had to date from before the Breaking. The face of the world had been changed utterly in those years. This could well have been an ocean's floor, before. He would have to ask Asmodean. Even if he had had the time, he did not think he would want to try reaching that altitude to find out for himself.

"What do you know about those ruins up near the snow line? They must come from the Age of Legends."

Asmodean did not even glance up the mountain. "This world is very changed from the world I... went to sleep in." He sounded weary, and he shivered slightly. "What I know of what lies where, I have learned since waking." The mournful sounds of "The March of Death" rose from his harp. "That could be what is left of the city where I was born, for all I know. Shorelle was a port."

yks 6nnetu hing
08-05-2011, 07:35 AM
Fish bones. :D No really, I'm sure there are some ruins of some sort in the Mountains, but they are unexplored at the moment because it's considered bad luck to go in the Mountains in the Two Rivers, and the west coast nations are mostly settled along the coast. The Ghealdanin and the Amadicians might know, but we don't see much of them, and Perrin indicates in TDR that the superstition is not limited to the Two Rivers.

well, this is turning into a stream of consciousness thread. I'm a bit intrigued by the similarities of Comelle and Shorelle. And Manetherendrelle. We know that Manetherendrelle translates as "Waters of the Mountain Home" so perhaps... the -relle/ -melle ending stands for "Water(s of)". Mountain Home sounds like the sort of a name a ragtag group of homeless people would give their new home in the times of peril so that might indicate that Manetheren was established during the Breaking. Maybe.

From the description of Shorelle from BWB it's a bit unlikely that the ruins are indeed Asmodean's hometown Shorelle (it sounds too small, wouldn't leave enough ruins behind to be visible off a mountainside from far away)

TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Asmodean
Probably the man among the Forsaken with the most unusual reason for turning to the shadow is Asmodean. A dark-eyed, dark-haired, handsome man, Joar Addam Nessosin was an acclaimed composer before the War of the Shadow. Born in the small port city of Shorelle (location unknown), he was a child prodigy, in both composition and performance on a wide range of instruments. (Of these only the harp and several sorts of flute would be familiar in the modern era. He also played the shama, the balfone, the corea and the obaen, but of these instruments nothing remains except their names). Shorelle is described as a small port city but Comelle was the 3rd biggest city in AOL.

Terez
08-05-2011, 07:47 AM
well, this is turning into a stream of consciousness thread. I'm a bit intrigued by the similarities of Comelle and Shorelle. And Manetherendrelle. We know that Manetherendrelle translates as "Waters of the Mountain Home" so perhaps... the -relle/ -melle ending stands for "Water(s of)". Mountain Home sounds like the sort of a name a ragtag group of homeless people would give their new home in the times of peril so that might indicate that Manetheren was established during the Breaking. Maybe.
All of the Ogier-built cities were built during the Breaking, or at least during the years of exile until the stedding were rediscovered. Tar Valon was one of the last to be built, I think.

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 07:48 AM
From the description of Shorelle from BWB it's a bit unlikely that the ruins are indeed Asmodean's hometown Shorelle (it sounds too small, wouldn't leave enough ruins behind to be visible off a mountainside from far away)I tried to find a small port town somewhere, for comparison, and I made the mistake of looking in Washington. Apparently Wiki has some moral reason against giving useful maps of that state. Anyways ... eventually I manage to come up with Westport, Washington, USA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westport,_Washington). That port town has, according to Wikipedia, 2,099 inhabitants, which makes it a "small port city", I would say. But the bloody town does cover over 4 square miles on land (11 square kilometer), which should leave plenty of features to spot from afar, if it happened to end up in a low erosion area.

Ishara
08-05-2011, 08:19 AM
Not Verin. Asmodean:

You're my damn hero. I spent way too long searching for that! Thanks!

So, my point was, *that* could have been Comelle.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-05-2011, 08:23 AM
You're my damn hero. I spent way too long searching for that! Thanks!

So, my point was, *that* could have been Comelle.

I've just thought of something else T said about my original quote: Jonai was looking across the Water towards West. if Comelle was in Kinslayer's Dagger, then Jonai must've been looking from where the Spine of the World now is, or beyond. Which is possible, seeing as there are several mentions that the Waste wasn't always quite so desolate as it is now.

Terez
08-05-2011, 08:29 AM
I've just thought of something else T said about my original quote: Jonai was looking across the Water towards West. if Comelle was in Kinslayer's Dagger, then Jonai must've been looking from where the Spine of the World now is, or beyond. Which is possible, seeing as there are several mentions that the Waste wasn't always quite so desolate as it is now.
It's unlikely, since descriptions of the geography in previous passages make it pretty clear they were wandering around Randland proper. This was their first encounter with the Spine:

His name was Rhodric, and he was nearly twenty. The sun was a golden blister in the sky, but he kept his veil up and his eyes alert. His spears were ready – one in his right hand, three held with his small bullhide buckler – and he was ready. Jeordam was down on the brown grass flat to the south of the hills, where most of the bushes were puny and withered. The old man's hair was white, like that thing called snow the old ones talked of, but his eyes were sharp, and watching the welldiggers haul up filled waterbags would not occupy all of his attention.

Mountains rose to the north and east, the northern range tall and sharp and white-tipped but dwarfed by the eastern monsters. Those looked as if the world was trying to touch the heavens, and perhaps did. Maybe that white was snow? He would not find out. Faced with this, the Jenn must decide to turn east. They had trailed north along that mountainous wall for long months, painfully dragging their wagons behind them, trying to deny the Aiel that followed them. At least there had been water when they crossed a river, even if not much. It had been years since Rhodric had seen a river he could not wade across; most were only cracked dry day away from the mountains. He hoped the rains would come again, and make things green once more. He remembered when the world was green.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-05-2011, 08:53 AM
It's unlikely, since descriptions of the geography in previous passages make it pretty clear they were wandering around Randland proper. This was their first encounter with the Spine:

Threre's not much chance that West and East meant something different before the Breaking than they do now, is there?

Terez
08-05-2011, 08:57 AM
Threre's not much chance that West and East meant something different before the Breaking than they do now, is there?
It's doubtful, seeing as how they're generally associated with the rising and setting of the sun.

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 09:14 AM
Of course, there is the possibility that, while they were busy rearranging the entire geography of the world, those madmen turned around a continent, so that what once would have been in the west, now is in the east (or vice versa). Plate tectonics is doing the same right now, though usually not quite as rapidly as that.

Terez
08-05-2011, 09:34 AM
Of course, there is the possibility that, while they were busy rearranging the entire geography of the world, those madmen turned around a continent, so that what once would have been in the west, now is in the east (or vice versa). Plate tectonics is doing the same right now, though usually not quite as rapidly as that.
But the Blight and Shayol Ghul remained in the north? That's a neat trick.

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 09:44 AM
But the Blight and Shayol Ghul remained in the north? That's a neat trick.I think that I'll leave that detail as an exercise for the reader.

The following might be of some help, though:
The Mountains of Dhoom rise from the eastern sea to run through the Aiel Waste and Shara right into the sea in the west, and may even continue beneath its waters if they are, as suspected, a planetwide upheaval caused during the Breaking. Extending both north and south of the Mountains of Dhoom is the wasteland known as the Great Blight, a region entirely corrupted by the Dark One, where Trolloc, Myrddraal, and other malignant shadow-creatures thrive. Deep within the Blight lies the dark volcanic mountain Shayol Ghul, the site of the Dark One’s prison. Some ancient records hint that the mountain may once have been an island in a cool sea. Below the forbidding slopes of Shayol Ghul is a fog-shrouded valley known as Thakan’dar. Despite the fog and the presence of ice only a few hundred leagues to the north, this winter-cold valley is as dry as any desert.

Terez
08-05-2011, 10:11 AM
I anticipated you would make that argument. I was prepared for it, but I didn't anticipate that you would not-make the argument. In order for such a twist to be geographically possible, there would have had to have been a plate or two far to the south, moving north and keeping everything pressed up against the theoretically stationary Blight. In that case, the land should be rounded off from twisting around in a circle and against the Mountains of Dhoom. But it's not.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i111/Terez27/WoTWorldMap-1-1.jpg?t=1262257838

There is a Great Rift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_African_Rift) at the Cliffs of Dawn, which indicates divergent plates, but the movement was probably far less drastic than you suggest.

Along the northeast edge of the Waste rise cliffs one hundred to five hundred feet in height. Named the Cliffs of Dawn by the Aiel, this great land shift (no doubt dating from the Breaking) extends southward for approximately 250 leagues from the Mountains of Dhoom and is topped by a series of mountain ranges of varying height. The rest of the eastern edge of the Waste is bordered by a massive split in the earth that ranges from one to three miles in depth. The Great Rift runs over four hundred and fifty leagues from the end of the Cliffs of Dawn into the Sea of Storms. It is bordered on both sides by badlands and mountains, but the eastern side of the rift, away from the Waste, appears to have much more water.

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 10:27 AM
I anticipated you would make that argument. I was prepared for it, but I didn't anticipate that you would not-make the argument.Hah! I win again, Lews Terez. :D

Terez
08-05-2011, 10:58 AM
Hah! I win again, Lews Terez. :D
Nice try, but no cigar. You still have to explain your neat trick.

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 11:01 AM
Shayol Ghul wasn't based on any land mass during the AOL, so it would be possible to rearrange the landmasses without unduly disturbing the DO. Then, once that was done, some sea beds could be uplifted, and the nice island becomes an imposing mountain in a continent.

Terez
08-05-2011, 11:02 AM
It became a mountain when the Bore was drilled, not during the Breaking.

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 11:06 AM
Are you sure of that? I don't think anyone would have survived that, and we know that the current Aiel are descendants of at least one eye witness.
I just reread the account, and didn't notice any mountain formation.

Terez
08-05-2011, 12:01 PM
Are you sure of that?
Have you ever read The Strike at Shayol Ghul? Don't be lazy.

I just reread the account, and didn't notice any mountain formation.
That's because you were looking at the Collam Daan, not an idyllic island in a cool sea.

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 12:10 PM
Have you ever read The Strike at Shayol Ghul? Don't be lazy.I've just reread it, and I do not see any actual description of the relevant geography. Do you have a quote showing that it was already a mountain instead of an island then?

That's because you were looking at the Collam Daan, not an idyllic island in a cool sea.Good point, this. Not one I particularly like, but a good one nonetheless.
Not quite good enough, I hope (see above).

Terez
08-05-2011, 12:12 PM
I've just reread it, and I do not see any actual description of the relevant geography. Do you have a quote showing that it was already a mountain instead of an island then?
While the exact events of that day can never be known, some of the details have survived. The Dragon and his companions arrived at Shayol Ghul to discover an unexpected bonus: a gathering of the thirteen most powerful leaders of the Forsaken Aes Sedai was taking place at the Pit of Doom deep within the mountain at the same moment, perhaps summoned by the Dark One for a conference. The Companions struck quickly and mercilessly, sealing the bore safely, without ripping open the Dark One’s prison as many opponents had feared.
.

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 12:15 PM
It could still have been a mountain on an island, of course.

But I do admit that "when it stop being an island" is a bit more of a question than it seemed at first.

Terez
08-05-2011, 12:18 PM
It could still have been a mountain on an island, of course.

But I do admit that "when it stop being an island" is a bit more of a question than it seemed at first.
The plan was risky for a number of reasons. All knew that the Dark One had a certain direct effect on the area close around Shayol Ghul - his touch had already transformed it from an idyllic island in a cool sea to a desolate waste - and it was likely that any attempt to channel there would be instantly detected and the raiding party destroyed.
.

GonzoTheGreat
08-05-2011, 03:23 PM
.Convincing, I'll admit. Not quite of the "it happened instantly", perhaps, but it does suggest very strongly that it predated the Breaking.

Zombie Sammael
08-05-2011, 04:07 PM
Convincing, I'll admit. Not quite of the "it happened instantly", perhaps, but it does suggest very strongly that it predated the Breaking.

It would still have been on an island. There's no way "the area directly around Shayol Ghul" can possibly mean an area the size of the entire Blight, which spans two continents.

FelixPax
08-05-2011, 05:02 PM
Shorelle is described as a small port city but Comelle was the 3rd biggest city in AOL.


I'm skeptical of this claim, considering Solinda Sedai claims to Jonai that Tzora is the 2nd greatest city in the world. If greatest means largest population, the whole order of biggest to smallest cities given in BWB is in doubt. Utterly Unreliable.

“Do you know what happened to the Aiel at Tzora?” He nodded, and she sighed, reaching out to smooth his short hair as if he were a child. “Of course you do. You Da’shain have more courage than . . . Ten thousand Aiel linking arms and singing, trying to remind a madman of who they were and who he had been, trying to turn him with their bodies and a song. Jaric Mondoran killed them. He stood there, staring as though at a puzzle, killing them, and they kept closing their lines and singing. I am told he listened to the last Aiel for almost an hour before destroying him. And then Tzora burned, one huge flame consuming stone and metal and flesh. There is a sheet of glass where the second greatest city in the world once stood.”


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26 “The Dedicated” – Jonai point of view; Solinda Sedai speaking



This marriage of aesthetics and functionality was especially evident in the major cities of the age, which were Paaran Disen, M’Jinn, Comelle, Adanza, Mar Ruois, V’saine, Jalanda, Emar Dal, Paral, Halidar, Kemali, Tsomo Nasalle, Devaille, and Tzora, in order of population size and importance. Each of these major metropolitan areas was a work of art unto itself.

...

The coastal city of Comelle, third-largest in the world, overlooked the sea with breathtaking splendor from its mountainside. Its immense glass, crystal, and metal structures clung to the steep rock like a shining flower bursting from the stone. Adanza was reported to “thrive with a vitality in its beauty matched only by the vitality of its people.” Even Tzora, the smallest of the major cities, was known for its multihued glass towers, in a wide variety of geometric shapes, which glittered like jewels in the sun.


The World of Robert Jordan or BWB


If Comelle truly was the 3rd biggest city in AOL, then Paaran Disen or M’Jinn have to be smaller cities in population.


Based on Charn's pov it's known that Comelle, M'Jinn, Tzora were not close in distance to the major city of V’saine the home of Collam Daan.

V'saine is where the Bore or Shayol Ghul is now found.

Jo-cars hummed quietly down the street, and a great white sho-wing darted across the sky, carrying citizens to Comelle or Tzora or somewhere. He seldom used the sho-wings, himself—if he needed to go very far, an Aes Sedai usually Traveled with him—but tonight he would, to M’jinn.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26 "The Dedicated" -- Charn pov and Rand al'Thor pov

If Comelle was very far away from the future Bore location, as Charn claims, Windbiter's Finger is a better possibility than say off what is now Arad Domon's coastline. No guarantee though. The nameless city off Windbiter's Finger could easily be M'Jinn et al...


At least a Demandred pov backs up the idea that Collam Daan was an island in a cool sea.


In what was now called the Age of Legends, this had been an idyllic island in a cool sea, a favorite of those who enjoyed the rustic.


Lord of Chaos, Prologue "The First Message" -- Demandred point of view; with Shaidar Haran at Shayol Ghul

However, once again what the BWB states as a fact, is in conflict with Demandred's own memory of Collam Daan. Which is it?

Idyllic rustic island or a Major city.


V’saine, among the major cities, was best known as the home of the Collam Daan. The great university’s silver and blue domes were bested only by the Sharom, a huge white sphere a thousand feet in diameter that floated serenely above it. Together, the Collam Daan and the Sharom were the world’s foremost center for research and development.


The World of Robert Jordan or BWB



Of course, Chosen pov's can be just as clear as muddy pond water. Who won at Paaran Disen? Who is telling the full truth?


Did you taste the sweetness of victory at Paaran Disen, or the bitter ashes at the Asar Don?

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 18 "A Hound of Darkness" -- Liandrin point of view; Moghedien speaking

You defeated me at the Gates of Paaran Disen.

The Eye of the World, Prologue 'Dragonmount' -- L.T.T. point of view with Ishamael in his head, in a Mirror World reflection of the Past; Ishamael speaking

I tend to believe Moghedien's claim in this case, over Ishamael's.



Returning once again to Tzora, what is one locational candidate for its current place? A Third Age island known to Bayle Domon.


The Breaking left a thousand wonders behind, and there been half a dozen empires or more since, some rivaling Artur Hawkwing’s, every one leaving things to see and find. Lightsticks and razorlace and heartstone. A crystal lattice covering an island, and it hums when the moon is up.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 24 "Flight Down the Arinelle" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Thom, Mat Cauthon, Bayle Domon on a boat

Crystal is a type of glass.

And then Tzora burned, one huge flame consuming stone and metal and flesh. There is a sheet of glass where the second greatest city in the world once stood.”


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26 “The Dedicated” – Jonai point of view; Solinda Sedai speaking


Sheets of Glass created by Saidin, Saidar at Tzora, Manetheren. Hints that Amayar lived near crystal sheet remains of Tzora.

Perhaps the destruction of Tzora into a crystal lattice helped to give the Amayar People an idea how to improve eyesight? How? Ample sheets of crystal glass found on an island perhaps?


Amayar manufacturers were a source eyeglasses, for the Sea Folk after all. Where else would Bayle Domon get a 'looking glass', but the Amayar? Outside of Amayar, only Ghealdan's glass manufacturers comes to mind perhaps...


He was fastening a peculiar wire framework over his ears to hold clear lenses in front of his eyes. The Sea Folk made the best looking glasses and burning lenses and the like, of course, somewhere on their islands, but Elayne had never seen anything like this device. He peered through the lenses at the papers and began talking without looking up.

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 19 "The Wavedancers -- Elayne point of view


The glass found in the mountains of what is left of Manetheren's capital city, was created after the Breaking. (TSR, Ch.27) Fortuona's in a prior turning of the Wheel created that glass, as Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlan when King Aemon died (Mat's soul). A Perrin pov describes that particular glass.

Whereas the City turned to glass at Tzora, was created during the Breaking Era by a Male Channeler under the effects of the Taint. A Solinda Sedai claim.


I wonder if it matters whether saidar or saidin effects the end product of crystal glass or not?

Some other HCFF's have speculated that Cuendillar's color varies, if saidin or saidar was used alone. (Domination Band; A'dam) I suspect it does not matter at all, considering Rhuidean was created after the Breaking and it possesses Colored Glass (TSR, Rand pov).

Ishara
08-05-2011, 09:33 PM
Hah! I win again, Lews Terez. :D
LOL - I have to spread my rep around before I can get Gonzo, but that was a spit take, for what it's worth...

Terez
08-06-2011, 04:08 AM
I just realized that you guys were still under the impression that the ruined city was in Kinslayer's Dagger. I should have said it was in Jangai Pass. If I hadn't been too lazy to include chapter names, you'd know that. Of course, Jangai Pass eventually runs along Kinslayer's Dagger, but they were just coming into the pass from the Waste side when Rand spotted the ruins.

GonzoTheGreat
08-06-2011, 04:11 AM
I just realized that you guys were still under the impression that the ruined city was in Kinslayer's Dagger. I should have said it was in Jangai Pass. If I hadn't been too lazy to include chapter names, you'd know that. Of course, Jangai Pass eventually runs along Kinslayer's Dagger, but they were just coming into the pass from the Waste side when Rand spotted the ruins.Well, yeah, obvious. If I'd figured out anyone thought differently, I would have said that myself.

Terez
08-06-2011, 04:29 AM
Okay, since Gonzo is lazy (he enjoys trolling more than he enjoys explaining things), I've come up with a way that Comelle could be the city Rand saw. Sort of. I don't think RJ worked this out very logically, so it's possible he had it in mind (vaguely) even though it doesn't make much sense. Looking at the world map, it seems that Africa is not where it is supposed to be.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i111/Terez27/WoTWorldMap-1-1.jpg?t=1262257838

So theoretically Africa could have broken away from the main landmass, and theoretically it eventually slammed up against the Blight, pushing Asia up into the Blight (and it could be that pieces of Asia broke away too). What was once the northwestern portion of Africa (where Comelle was theoretically a coastal city before it fell into the water in the early years of the Breaking) is now the Spine of the World. Africa could have theoretically broken away at any time after the Aiel had left its shores, so long as they had a chance to migrate up into Europe before it broke away entirely. As for North America...looks like someone found Yellowstone. :) Of course, CA probably fell into the ocean long before then...maybe it traveled around the world and became Tremalking.

It's got quite a few holes in it, but it might well be what RJ intended. Hence Gonzo not-making the argument.

Terez
08-06-2011, 06:22 AM
I was bored, so I read Felix's post.

Based on Charn's pov it's known that Comelle, M'Jinn, Tzora were not close in distance to the major city of V’saine the home of Collam Daan.
V'saine is where the Bore or Shayol Ghul is now found. If Comelle was very far away from the future Bore location, as Charn claims, Windbiter's Finger is a better possibility than say off what is now Arad Domon's coastline. No guarantee though. The nameless city off Windbiter's Finger could easily be M'Jinn et al...


At least a Demandred pov backs up the idea that Collam Daan was an island in a cool sea.
No, Demandred says that's where Shayol Ghul was. The thinness in the Pattern was on the island. The research facility was at the Collam Daan, which was destroyed by the drilling. This was made possible by technology, presumably. We just don't know how. RJ said that the Bore is everywhere; it's just sensed most easily at Shayol Ghul.

Terez
08-06-2011, 09:19 AM
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i111/Terez27/WoTWorldMap-1-1.jpg?t=1262257838

So theoretically Africa could have broken away from the main landmass, and theoretically it eventually slammed up against the Blight, pushing Asia up into the Blight (and it could be that pieces of Asia broke away too). What was once the northwestern portion of Africa (where Comelle was theoretically a coastal city before it fell into the water in the early years of the Breaking) is now the Spine of the World. Africa could have theoretically broken away at any time after the Aiel had left its shores, so long as they had a chance to migrate up into Europe before it broke away entirely. As for North America...looks like someone found Yellowstone. :) Of course, CA probably fell into the ocean long before then...maybe it traveled around the world and became Tremalking.

It's got quite a few holes in it, but it might well be what RJ intended. Hence Gonzo not-making the argument.
To add more to that, it could be that the entire landmass rotated on the axis of Shayol Ghul. I'm not sure if that's possible...but Africa could sort of be turned sideways, with the Sahara getting smashed in with the Middle East and the floor of the Mediterranean...and Comelle could have been anywhere on the shores of the Mediterranean Sea. Some of it got smashed up to become the Dragonwall and the Cliffs of Dawn. Perhaps the Spine was only created after the Aiel had crossed the area where it would be.

http://www.aegweb.org/images/Geologic%20Hazards/globalvolcanoes.png

So everything just sort of rotated to the side, and that's how the Dutch end up in Illian. Or something. I think Africa doesn't turn so much as float up and smash into India, taking the Middle East with it and killing the Mediterranean dead. Russia and China become the Blight, and Shayol Ghul (perhaps once an island in the Aral Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vozrozhdeniya)?) stays in roughly the same place. The British Isles become Tremalking, and the fjords become the Mountains of Mist. Greenland becomes part of the Blight, and maybe some of Saldaea and Kandor. Apparently the islands north of Australia all smashed into it while pushing it south, and that's why it's always on fire.

http://www.traveljournals.net/maps/us/15/157835-yellowstone-national-park-division-united-states-map-zoom-x4.jpg

That's Yellowstone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowstone_Caldera), in case you didn't know. BOOM!

Ishara
08-06-2011, 03:49 PM
LOL - am SOOO lost! I can laugh at loud because I have tried actually physically turning a map this way and that as well as scrunching it up a bit, and I feel I am missing some part of the conversation. Oh man, am I out of my league...:rolleyes:

Terez
08-06-2011, 04:00 PM
lol...like I said, it has some holes in it. But you can sort of tell that's what RJ was thinking when he drew the world map. The most important bit was Yellowstone...there's a little sea where it used to be. Oh, and what's left of Canada is in the Blight. :D

GonzoTheGreat
08-06-2011, 04:13 PM
The Land of Madmen didn't move very far:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Location_Antarctica.svg/200px-Location_Antarctica.svg.png

Terez
08-06-2011, 04:29 PM
It probably moved further west than south.

GonzoTheGreat
08-06-2011, 04:30 PM
It probably moved further west than south.Well, duh. It can't really move south right now (in real time), can it?

yks 6nnetu hing
08-07-2011, 06:58 AM
Ok, so Comelle was on a mountainside, so that leaves out most of the African coast. Perhaps Italy, Greece or Spain? Or, it could be more to the North, on the shores of the Black Sea - in the Caucasus.

I keep trying to fiure out linguistically which city it might have been. Paaran Disen sounds an awful lot like Paris, for example. It also sounds even more like Paradise though... so there's that.

Terez
08-07-2011, 07:05 AM
Well, duh. It can't really move south right now (in real time), can it?
What?

The Unreasoner
08-07-2011, 07:27 AM
This may be one of the oddest threads I've ever seen.

Zombie Sammael
08-07-2011, 07:52 AM
What?

I think Gonzo's suggesting Antarctica is the Land of Madmen rather than Australia like everyone else thinks.

Terez
08-07-2011, 08:18 AM
Unlikely.

There are three major continents, and an area of ice in each polar region. Our land, the Aiel Waste, and the land called Shara occupy one continent, and the Seanchan the second, much larger, which lies to the west far over the Aryth Ocean. An unnamed continent, known only from Sea Folk explorations, lies far to the south. A fourth continent may lie hidden beneath the massive ice of the southern polar regions, but it is unknown and likely to remain so.

GonzoTheGreat
08-07-2011, 11:22 AM
That fourth is obviously Australia.

Zombie Sammael
08-07-2011, 12:46 PM
That fourth is obviously Australia.

So what you're saying is that Australia and Antarctica have swapped places. Right...

Terez
08-07-2011, 02:14 PM
Australia makes the most sense because of its proximity to the ring of fire. The upheaval seems to have somehow put Australia on the edge of said ring - as I said before, it was probably merged with the Oceania islands, which are heavily volcanic. Of course, the madmen could have made a bunch of new volcanoes, but this seems a simpler explanation.

Zombie Sammael
08-07-2011, 03:09 PM
"Making new volcanoes" would probably just mean moving things round so they were closer to existing volcanoes, anyway.

Terez
08-07-2011, 03:10 PM
Tell that to Lews Therin.

Zombie Sammael
08-07-2011, 03:14 PM
Tell that to Lews Therin.

He's special.

Terez
08-07-2011, 03:15 PM
I'm sure he likes to think so.

Crispin's Crispian
08-08-2011, 12:04 PM
On a broader note, I've always wondered how the continents could have really changed that much. First of all, the bell curve would indicate that most men aren't going to have continent-altering power levels. Blowing up hillsides, making some lakes or bays, maybe, but not raising mountain ranges or moving tectonic plates. Even Lews Therin, the strongest ever, could only create a solitary (though huge) volcano.

Moreover, channeling men can't link with one another, and no sane woman was going to link with a man during the Breaking.

Is it feasible that Africa would have moved up, pushed India out of the way, and shoved northern Asia into the Blight?

Yellowstone I could see, because a man would only need to trigger a massive eruption. But even that isn't going to move plates.

GonzoTheGreat
08-08-2011, 12:14 PM
Put a lot of pressure on solid rock, and not very much will happen. Put that same pressure in the right place in one of the hotspots below the surface, and things will get a whole lot livelier.

That said: is there an actual reason to think that the geography of the Second Age resembles our current geography any more than the Third Age one does?

Terez
08-08-2011, 12:17 PM
Only that people suspect our age is the First Age. It would explain why there are still stories of Mosk and Merk hanging around (supposedly from the Age before the Age of Legends), and Mercedes hood ornaments, etc.

GonzoTheGreat
08-08-2011, 12:21 PM
Yeah, but then either there would have been a Breaking of the World style discontinuity, which would leave all the continents shuffled and broken, thus destroying the argument, or there would have been a lot more accurate information left over.

Terez
08-08-2011, 12:26 PM
Yeah, but then either there would have been a Breaking of the World style discontinuity, which would leave all the continents shuffled and broken, thus destroying the argument, or there would have been a lot more accurate information left over.
Nuclear war. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
08-08-2011, 12:42 PM
Nuclear war. ;)Yep. That is indeed a possibility.

But with our current weapons, that would either leave too many survivors, or it wouldn't leave enough civilisation to keep any stories alive at all. We don't have all that many real Stone Age stories, do we?
And with somewhat more advanced weapons, it should be possible to duplicate the Breaking of the World (if that can happen at all). Wouldn't make sense to build, let alone use, such weapons, admittedly. But then, nuclear war doesn't make sense anyway, yet it might still happen.

Terez
08-08-2011, 12:45 PM
Yep. That is indeed a possibility.

But with our current weapons, that would either leave too many survivors, or it wouldn't leave enough civilisation to keep any stories alive at all. We don't have all that many real Stone Age stories, do we?
I think you are being somewhat unimaginative here.

And with somewhat more advanced weapons, it should be possible to duplicate the Breaking of the World (if that can happen at all).
Possible, yes, but not necessary to create the required circumstances.

Crispin's Crispian
08-08-2011, 12:58 PM
Gonzo, I'm not clear on why you think there had to be a "Breaking" type of event at the end of the First Age. If the continents have remained fairly static (drift notwithstanding) through the First and Second Ages, then we could speculate on which parts of post-Breaking Randland might match our world today.

Also:

Put a lot of pressure on solid rock, and not very much will happen. Put that same pressure in the right place in one of the hotspots below the surface, and things will get a whole lot livelier.Sure--that's why I said what I did about Yellowstone. But one guy pumping saidin into a hotspot isn't going to move Africa across the hemisphere.

Terez
08-08-2011, 01:20 PM
Maybe what looks like Africa is actually India, and everything else is under water. But I think it's too big to be India, unless some more landmass came up out of the water. And though the Great Rift speaks to Africa, it's not quite in the right place.

FelixPax
08-08-2011, 06:32 PM
I was bored, so I read Felix's post.


No, Demandred says that's where Shayol Ghul was. The thinness in the Pattern was on the island. The research facility was at the Collam Daan, which was destroyed by the drilling. This was made possible by technology, presumably. We just don't know how. RJ said that the Bore is everywhere; it's just sensed most easily at Shayol Ghul.


The Bore at Shayol Ghul was drilled at a research building called Collam Daan, above a city called V'saine. This city was set on an island, surrounded by a cool sea.


Either the BWB or Demandred memories are incorrect about V'saine. Demandred called the island was rustic, while the BWB claims V'saine was a major city.


Who knows if the Bore location was altered on land, by the Breaking of the World or not?


The only certain thing readers know, is that the Bore is very far in distance from the original locations of three 2nd Age cities: M'jinn, Tzora, Comelle.

Terez
08-08-2011, 06:56 PM
The Bore at Shayol Ghul was drilled at a research building called Collam Daan, above a city called V'saine. This city was set on an island, surrounded by a cool sea.
I already explained why this is not true. Nowhere in the books does it say any such thing, and RJ told us that the Bore is everywhere - it can just be sensed best through the thinness in the Patter at Shayol Ghul (which was once an island). That's in the interview database.

Ishara
08-08-2011, 09:20 PM
Really stupid question at this point, but are we saying that Yellowstone is Shayol Ghul or Dragonmount?

Also, if we're the First Age, and the Randland map we have is of the Third Age, and if time is cyclical, then does that apply to geography as well? Because wouldn't it have to revert back to what we know, or am I approaching this far too simplistically?

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 04:10 AM
Really stupid question at this point, but are we saying that Yellowstone is Shayol Ghul or Dragonmount?

Neither.

Shayol Ghul is Lapindo.
Dragonmount is Krakatau, of 1883.

Indonesia is can be a Heaven and Hell....


Even the Sea Folk Peoples have Indonesian ties among others current nationalities....
Moghedien is a kin to the only living creature found to have survived Krakatau blowing it's top. A Spider.


How about lightning storms meet volcanic explosions?

Welcome to Chile...
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/05/photogalleries/volcano-photos/images/primary/1_VOLCANO_461.jpg


Just an average day in Iceland... ;)
http://www.impactlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Eyjafjallajokull-Volcano-510.jpg
http://www.impactlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Eyjafjallajokull-Volcano-501.jpg
http://www.impactlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Eyjafjallajokull-Volcano-502.jpg
http://www.impactlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Eyjafjallajokull-Volcano-503.jpg
http://www.impactlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Eyjafjallajokull-Volcano-505.jpg

GonzoTheGreat
08-09-2011, 04:35 AM
Also, if we're the First Age, and the Randland map we have is of the Third Age, and if time is cyclical, then does that apply to geography as well? Because wouldn't it have to revert back to what we know, or am I approaching this far too simplistically?That is indeed a fairly important part of the reason why I doubt the simple "First Age is our time" approach.
If you want to make it work cyclically as portrayed in the series, then you have to throw out plate tectonics, geophysics in general and the theory of evolution, at a bare minimum. I'm willing to do that, for the sake of discussions like these, but if you do do that, then all bets are off when trying to fit it back into the current mold.

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 04:53 AM
That is indeed a fairly important part of the reason why I doubt the simple "First Age is our time" approach.

This Age's world is dying...
L.T.T. thoughts were correct...
Let this world's flower die...


The creation of "the Beginning" will depends on Nynaeve & Lan's memory. Fresh beginning, with no baggage.

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 05:03 AM
I already explained why this is not true. Nowhere in the books does it say any such thing,

Yes, actually. See Demandred pov thoughts and BWB.



and RJ told us that the Bore is everywhere - it can just be sensed best through the thinness in the Patter at Shayol Ghul (which was once an island). That's in the interview database.

The Dark One is everywhere, but not everywhere. :p
The Bore is NOT everywhere.
The Bore is a drilled hole, on Earth.


The Bore is NOT in every Mirror World.
The Dark One is NOT in every Mirror World.
The Bore is NOT in every Vacuole.
The Dark One is NOT in every Vacuole.

Ishara
08-09-2011, 06:44 AM
Felix, those pictures were epic! I had seen the one from Chile, but the rest just blew my mind!

Terez
08-09-2011, 07:29 AM
Yes, actually. See Demandred pov thoughts and BWB.
I already explanied that.


The Dark One is everywhere, but not everywhere. :p
The Bore is NOT everywhere.
Wrong.

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005 (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html)

Week 8 Question: When a person that can channel is shielded, where is the shield placed? Is it placed around the whole body of the person or around the head of the channeler where they sense saidin/saidar? If you are shielded from the One Power, are you also shielded from the True Power? What happens if someone in a circle is shielded? Can a Warder feel that his Aes Sedai is shielded?

Robert Jordan Answers: A shield exists both as a barrier around the entire person and as a single point along with everything in between. . (In a way, this is like the Bore, which does not actually exist as Shayol Ghul. The Bore exists everywhere, but Shayol Ghul is the place where it can best be detected. Which is not to say that there is any connection between the Bore and a shield. Both simply exist in different states simultaneously.) Someone who is shielded and trying to get past the shield can "feel" their way along its inner "surface" hunting for weaknesses, such as the points that indicate where the shield is being maintained or has been tied off. Shielding against the One Power will indeed stop someone from reaching for the True Power. It isn't possible to shield one person out of a circle since, in effect, the circle has become a single person for the purpose of channeling. You would have to shield the entire circle, which would require either a circle of your own or a pretty hefty sa'angreal. A Warder cannot feel that his Aes Sedai has been shielded, though he would be aware of any agitation on her part. But this would tell him no more than that she was agitated.

The Unreasoner
08-09-2011, 03:34 PM
Also, if we're the First Age, and the Randland map we have is of the Third Age, and if time is cyclical, then does that apply to geography as well? Because wouldn't it have to revert back to what we know, or am I approaching this far too simplistically?
Or Universal geography? I always assumed the 6th/7th Age would last a few billion years and do this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Big_Crunch.gif/220px-Big_Crunch.gif

The Unreasoner
08-09-2011, 03:42 PM
Also, you can all do as you will, but taking the shape/size of continents too seriously would be a mistake. RJ didn't draw the maps, and the geography has several errors. For instance, it has been pointed out that the Waste as described could not support the population it is said to have.

And quick question:
Shayol Ghul transformed from a rustic island to what it is in the Third Age not because of the drilling of the Bore, but because the Bore happened to be open, correct?

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 04:34 PM
I already explanied that.

Robert Jordan Answers: A shield exists both as a barrier around the entire person and as a single point along with everything in between. . (In a way, this is like the Bore, which does not actually exist as Shayol Ghul. The Bore exists everywhere, but Shayol Ghul is the place where it can best be detected. Which is not to say that there is any connection between the Bore and a shield. Both simply exist in different states simultaneously.)

What specific word does Robert Jordan use to qualify these object comparisons? (Bore, Shayol Ghul, Shielding)

Like.

Your interpretation is off again, Terez.

Terez
08-09-2011, 04:55 PM
What specific word does Robert Jordan use to qualify these object comparisons? (Bore, Shayol Ghul, Shielding)

Like.

But then he goes on to say very specific and definite things about the Bore...and then to reiterate that shielding only shares a few characteristics with the Bore. (That's where the 'like' bit comes in.)

Marie Curie 7
08-09-2011, 05:05 PM
Also, you can all do as you will, but taking the shape/size of continents too seriously would be a mistake. RJ didn't draw the maps, and the geography has several errors. For instance, it has been pointed out that the Waste as described could not support the population it is said to have.

Actually, RJ sketched the maps, and then passed them along to other to make better copies:

ComicCon 2005, San Diego, CA, July 14-17, 2005 - Jason Denzel reporting

Randland maps - He insists it was not inspired by the Middle Earth map. He wrote The Eye of the World with no illustrations but Tom Doherty insisted on a map. RJ sketched out his mental image, placing the nations where he envisaged them. He sent the sketch to a friend, John M. Ford, who did the black and white map from The Eye of the World. Tom Canty did the color version used for the endpapers. A similar story for the city maps - when really needed, he did a rough sketch and passed it on to another friend, Ellisa Mitchell.

And his discussion of the sizes of the continents fits pretty well with what we have:

A Crown of Swords book tour 23 August 1996, Vancouver - Lara Beaton reporting

Randland size: Randland is approximately 4500 miles across. Seanchan is as big as Randland, the Aiel Waste, and Shara all put together (a single empire the size of North and South America).

A Crown of Swords book tour 23 August 1996, Vancouver - Robert Watson reporting

There seems to have been much discussion about Randland size recently, and section (2.08) of the FAQ, "Geography of Randland" didn't have any info, so we (myself, Lara, and Greebs) took it upon ourselves to ask about this at the Vancouver signing (Friday 23rd). From the Spine to the Aryth Ocean is 4-5000 miles; RJ compared Seanchan to the Americas, as one landmass. He made it clear that the Seanchan Empire is big.

Marie Curie 7
08-09-2011, 05:08 PM
What specific word does Robert Jordan use to qualify these object comparisons? (Bore, Shayol Ghul, Shielding)

Like.

Your interpretation is off again, Terez.


Demandred's thoughts in LOC also support that the Bore is everywhere.

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

Even after all his visits – and the first lay well over three thousand years in the past – Demandred felt awe. Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago to where the Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation. Here the Great Lord’s presence washed over him. Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed.

The Unreasoner
08-09-2011, 05:11 PM
Right...so he didn't draw the maps. The final shape and size of continents do not necessarily have to be precise in any sense. I mean, look at the covers. I rather think the initial sketches were more concerned with relative location and distance.

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 07:02 PM
Demandred's thoughts in LOC also support that the Bore is everywhere.


Bore is a hole.
Yet you seem to be also claiming the Bore is one in the same as the Dark One.
The Hole or thinness or Bore in the Pattern, is not the same thing as the Dark One. It is distinct from the Dark One, it is the prison walls.



“Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again.” He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. “Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course.” The pipestem completed the circle. “When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again.”


The Lord of Chaos, Chapter 18 "A Taste of Solitude" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Herid speaking

Terez
08-09-2011, 10:49 PM
RJ is the one that said it, not Marie. If you don't like RJ's logic, then take it up with him. ;) Basically, the Bore is a hole in the Dark One's prison that allows him to touch the Pattern. The thinness in the Pattern is a weakness in the Pattern itself that allows him to be sensed. That same weakness could have shown up elsewhere, but it didn't.

Juan
08-09-2011, 11:47 PM
RJ is the one that said it, not Marie. If you don't like RJ's logic, then take it up with him. ;) Basically, the Bore is a hole in the Dark One's prison that allows him to touch the Pattern. The thinness in the Pattern is a weakness in the Pattern itself that allows him to be sensed. That same weakness could have shown up elsewhere, but it didn't.

What if it did? Could be that people just haven't come across it. Perhaps it's over the middle of the ocean or whatever. You can see why there's less of a chance for someone discovering it there than shayol ghul.

Terez
08-09-2011, 11:50 PM
What if it did?
It wouldn't make a difference, probably. But RJ's comments indicate that the Dark One can be most easily sensed at Shayol Ghul. That means the Dark One can probably be sensed most easily at Shayol Ghul.

Juan
08-10-2011, 12:03 AM
Maybe not this age. I imagine that since every turning has it's equivalent of the breaking, I suppose continents and oceans shift and move etc. Landscape changes. So if in this turning of the wheel, shayol ghul was accessible, perhaps in a past turning shayol ghul is beneath the water or something, so that thinness is noticed elsewhere that used to be say an ocean and is now land. The actual layout of the terrain wouldn't affect the thinness, just the accessibility to it, and therefore were it could be detected. If this is the case, could there be a shayol ghul an blight in the middle/heart of continent instead of near the top or near the bottom. Or to a particular side. Then the way it spreads would be quite... Interesing.

Terez
08-10-2011, 12:06 AM
Herid Fel suggested that the thinness will cease to exist when the prison is sealed. Everyone will forget about it until it starts getting thin again, at which point the Dark One will be rediscovered. So, it's probably not in a constant location through the Turnings, but rather it's a product of...who knows? Maybe the Dark One himself creates that thinness, something like trying to claw through a stone wall with your fingernails, but the Dark One has all of time, so why not?

Juan
08-10-2011, 12:11 AM
Yeah definitely makes it interesting if a blight was in center of continent. Then the blight wouldn't spread just downward, but in all directions.

Could make that into a game. Like pin the tail on the donkey. Or blind darts. Where is the next blight gonna be this turning...? Here! Haha

Terez
08-10-2011, 12:15 AM
I get the feeling that the northern wastelands are easier for the Dark One to influence because there are less humans there. I could be wrong, but why would he waste his time expanding it northward instead of southward? Something limits him.

The Unreasoner
08-10-2011, 12:33 AM
That is an interesting point. It does stand to reason that the collective consciousness that defines T'A'R might resist the Pattern thinning. The thinness might locate randomly, but also as a function of the location of human imposed order.

Of course, it does lend support to Juan's argument that the thinness could also be sensed at a point in some ocean. But it does seem like the sort of thing no character could know, the odds are astronomical. So it is consistent with RJ's quotes.

Zombie Sammael
08-10-2011, 10:23 AM
I would assume that at the end of the seventh age, humanity is wiped out, then the cycle begins again at the first. Who knows, the end of the seventh age could be a tremendous cosmic event such as the big crunch or maximum entropy, and the universe itself would then begin again at the start of the first, our age. This wouldn't mean the end of the Pattern per se, as long as something survived to begin again with once more.

Crispin's Crispian
08-10-2011, 12:23 PM
That is indeed a fairly important part of the reason why I doubt the simple "First Age is our time" approach.
If you want to make it work cyclically as portrayed in the series, then you have to throw out plate tectonics, geophysics in general and the theory of evolution, at a bare minimum. I'm willing to do that, for the sake of discussions like these, but if you do do that, then all bets are off when trying to fit it back into the current mold.
It's not quite as implausible if the First Age is really, really long. If we assume that Ages are defined by Pattern-level events (~gah~), it could be that the first of those events took a very long time to occur. Once it did, the next one could have come sooner. Technology has a way of exponentially improving, and so does magic I think.

But otherwise, you're right. Unless Unreasoner is right and we're talking about a Big Bang/Big Crunch scenario, of course.


That is an interesting point. It does stand to reason that the collective consciousness that defines T'A'R might resist the Pattern thinning. The thinness might locate randomly, but also as a function of the location of human imposed order.

Analyzing a "thinness" in the Pattern is a little tough. What does that even mean as far as we understand the Pattern? Terez's idea makes a lot of sense--fewer threads and/or decisions being made = a thinner Pattern. You could argue that the ocean won't work because there is a lot of life there--fish, whales, etc.

The problem with assuming the Bore is in a geographic location is that the Dark One is outside the geography of the world. It's like asking whether the moon is north or south of Hawaii--it doesn't make sense.

Terez
08-10-2011, 01:14 PM
Analyzing a "thinness" in the Pattern is a little tough. What does that even mean as far as we understand the Pattern? Terez's idea makes a lot of sense--fewer threads and/or decisions being made = a thinner Pattern. You could argue that the ocean won't work because there is a lot of life there--fish, whales, etc.
To clarify, I don't think that the thinness is a result of fewer people. It might be, but in that case there would be better locations than a popular (if rustic) vacation spot. I just think that's why he was able to easily extend the Blight northward, but he had a more difficult time extending it south.

Crispin's Crispian
08-10-2011, 02:10 PM
Ah, I see. Something about belief and order giving strength?

Terez
08-10-2011, 02:15 PM
Indeed.

Zombie Sammael
08-10-2011, 02:35 PM
But otherwise, you're right. Unless Unreasoner is right and we're talking about a Big Bang/Big Crunch scenario, of course.

I would assume that at the end of the seventh age, humanity is wiped out, then the cycle begins again at the first. Who knows, the end of the seventh age could be a tremendous cosmic event such as the big crunch or maximum entropy, and the universe itself would then begin again at the start of the first, our age. This wouldn't mean the end of the Pattern per se, as long as something survived to begin again with once more.

*gives Crispin a hurt look*

Marie Curie 7
08-10-2011, 03:06 PM
It's not quite as implausible if the First Age is really, really long. If we assume that Ages are defined by Pattern-level events (~gah~), it could be that the first of those events took a very long time to occur. Once it did, the next one could have come sooner. Technology has a way of exponentially improving, and so does magic I think.

But otherwise, you're right. Unless Unreasoner is right and we're talking about a Big Bang/Big Crunch scenario, of course.

The problem with that is that RJ said that the sun would never go nova in the world of the Wheel.

At that point, it gets a little difficult to go further in thinking about the Ages, also in part because RJ didn't take it further:

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

Q: In the Wheel of Time mythos, how do extinct animals come back into existence when the Wheel comes back around?

RJ: Well, the world I created is based on the ideas and conceptions of the world from a roughly medieval viewpoint; time being circular and such. I didn't quite try to make it completely scientifically accurate, so there really is no answer for the question.

The Unreasoner
08-10-2011, 04:31 PM
*gives Crispin a hurt look*
Or Universal geography? I always assumed the 6th/7th Age would last a few billion years and do this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Big_Crunch.gif/220px-Big_Crunch.gif

*gives Zombie a "he didn't confuse us" look*

Zombie Sammael
08-10-2011, 04:55 PM
*gives Zombie a "he didn't confuse us" look*

*Gives the Unreasoner and Crispin an apologetic look.*

Sorry! I'll read better.

The Unreasoner
08-10-2011, 07:20 PM
The problem with that is that RJ said that the sun would never go nova in the world of the Wheel.

At that point, it gets a little difficult to go further in thinking about the Ages, also in part because RJ didn't take it further:

So it stands to reason plate tectonics play no role either, correct? The drifting and morphing... It must be explainable by channeling or technology or asteroids seen as gods. Or similar phenomena.

Or 'bad maps', I suppose.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2011, 04:29 AM
So it stands to reason plate tectonics play no role either, correct? The drifting and morphing... It must be explainable by channeling or technology or asteroids seen as gods. Or similar phenomena.

Or 'bad maps', I suppose.

you can't translate our world plate tectonics, physics and all that lot directly into a world where magic is involved. Magic can do a whole LOT of things "normal" physics can't, that's why it's called magic.

Zombie Sammael
08-11-2011, 04:37 AM
you can't translate our world plate tectonics, physics and all that lot directly into a world where magic is involved. Magic can do a whole LOT of things "normal" physics can't, that's why it's called magic.

It's not called magic though. Well, apart from that one mention at the end of TOM, but I'm willing to let that slide so long as he never does it again.

The Unreasoner
08-11-2011, 05:01 AM
you can't translate our world plate tectonics, physics and all that lot directly into a world where magic is involved. Magic can do a whole LOT of things "normal" physics can't, that's why it's called magic.
Can't sleep...

This is sort of what I meant. Entropy isn't an issue basically because RJ said so. But his reasons also rule out continental drift from playing a role. All the changes must be due to things people in medieval times were aware of. Or things that are a part of the "magic" system. Basing an argument on where continents are now or how big they are cannot involve continental drift.

Although I still think this is the oddest thread I've seen in a while, partly due to what I see as its futility. It's entertaining, though.

GonzoTheGreat
08-11-2011, 05:06 AM
So it stands to reason plate tectonics play no role either, correct? The drifting and morphing... It must be explainable by channeling or technology or asteroids seen as gods. Or similar phenomena.

Or 'bad maps', I suppose.Oh, plate tectonics and such may still play a role. But that is far too slow a process to make much of an impression on historical, or even mythological, time scales.
Evolution would be out, though, as that would tend to totally change species over the course of a couple Turns of the Wheel. Having a balefire resistant mutation pop up amongst the Forsaken would tend to affect how things turn out, I suspect.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2011, 05:12 AM
Can't sleep...

This is sort of what I meant. Entropy isn't an issue basically because RJ said so. But his reasons also rule out continental drift from playing a role. All the changes must be due to things people in medieval times were aware of. Or things that are a part of the "magic" system. Basing an argument on where continents are now or how big they are cannot involve continental drift.

Although I still think this is the oddest thread I've seen in a while, partly due to what I see as its futility. It's entertaining, though.

maybe you should sleep because your answer makes no sense at all.

Why should RJ's world-mechanism be based on something that mediaeval* people would understand? Especially considering the huge variety of knowledge available in the different Ages. Or are you saying that the Age of Legends was scientifically backwards compared to our commute-computerized scientific gleaming and plastic day and age? Additionally, since when is a world/universe composed in such a way that its inhabitants understand ALL the details?




*RJ's Randland isn't mediaeval at all but rather corresponds to our Modern, actually. get your time periods straight: Mediaeval - approx. 700-1200 AD Reneissance 1200-1400 AD Modern 1400-1750 AD Industrial 1750-1900 AD and contemporary 1900-now

The Unreasoner
08-11-2011, 05:13 AM
Having a balefire resistant mutation pop up amongst the Forsaken would tend to affect how things turn out, I suspect.

Yes...I suspect it would.

Unusual thought. Or a gholam like gene?

The Unreasoner
08-11-2011, 05:29 AM
maybe you should sleep because your answer makes no sense at all.

Why should RJ's world-mechanism be based on something that mediaeval* people would understand? Especially considering the huge variety of knowledge available in the different Ages. Or are you saying that the Age of Legends was scientifically backwards compared to our commute-computerized scientific gleaming and plastic day and age? Additionally, since when is a world/universe composed in such a way that its inhabitants understand ALL the details?




*RJ's Randland isn't mediaeval at all but rather corresponds to our Modern, actually. get your time periods straight: Mediaeval - approx. 700-1200 AD Reneissance 1200-1400 AD Modern 1400-1750 AD Industrial 1750-1900 AD and contemporary 1900-now

With thanks to Marie Curie...
Q: In the Wheel of Time mythos, how do extinct animals come back into existence when the Wheel comes back around?

RJ: Well, the world I created is based on the ideas and conceptions of the world from a roughly medieval viewpoint; time being circular and such. I didn't quite try to make it completely scientifically accurate, so there really is no answer for the question.
A similar answer was given in response to the issue of the sun going nova.

I am tired (and stressed out of my mind) but I don't really see why my answer is senseless.

*I'll revisit this later, see if I follow your argument better.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2011, 06:20 AM
With thanks to Marie Curie...

A similar answer was given in response to the issue of the sun going nova.

I am tired (and stressed out of my mind) but I don't really see why my answer is senseless.

*I'll revisit this later, see if I follow your argument better.

mainly because it doesn't make sense to assume that the world is what you think it is. Rather like Plato discovered in the cave. Or, in this case to suppose that RJ's world is what its inhabitants can comprehend.

speaking of the inhabitants, are you suggesting that the world-logic be understandable to the smartest (say, Herid Fel) or to the dumbest? Or collectively? What happens if the cumulative intelligence of the inhabitants go up or down, does that *make* the world get more complicated or simple or was it always that way?

Seeing as that particular world was devised in the head of Robert Jordan, I would presume the answer to be self-evident.

The Unreasoner
08-11-2011, 06:40 AM
That wasn't really my point. I realize intelligence and awareness levels can go up or down, and collective ones too. My point was that in my mind, if the issue of the sun going nova doesn't have an answer, the issue of plate tectonics likely won't either. People in the Age of Legends knew of other planets, and so would have been capable of knowing about the lifespan of stars. My position is essentially, whatever is possible for people within RJ's world to know, we will never find out if tectonic plates even exist. Continents could move according to another mechanism entirely. Or not at all, not without human action. Just because there is no reason to assume there isn't continental drift doesn't mean there is reason for it. And the reason for no issues with stellar phenomena is a vague one, that I think could be applied to plate tectonics as well.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2011, 07:16 AM
TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 38 - Wounds
Perrin felt unsteady on his feet, even with the staff. He'd been wounded so badly. The ground trembled. A rift opened in the ground next to him, steaming with heat and lava, like . . . Perrin started. Like Dragonmount. He looked down at the ter'angreal in his fingers. The fear-dreams of people are strong. Hopper's voice whispered in Perrin's mind. So very strong. . . . As Slayer advanced on him, Perrin gritted his teeth and hurled the ter'angreal into the river of lava.

Now, this is a dream sequence, so not real world, and it's referencing the Drangonmount, so not the best example ever. But, my point is: Perrin knows what lava is and what ground trembling means. Which indicates that he's experienced it or heard of it before and therefore it's a known phenomenon in Randland. Volcanoes and earthquakes are signs of the tectonic plates moving in our world, though they're not only that in Randland.

As Dragonmount is a volcano and is Power-generated, it doesn't necessarily mean that all volcanoes are Power-generated, but seeing as we've only seen a few of them I can't say for sure. It also doesn't mean that any lava in DM now is somehow Power-generated.

I think the Randland tectonic plates movements is similar to Randland weather. Just because it's possible to affect with the Power, does not mean that it doesn't change without the Power, via "the normal" means.

The Unreasoner
08-11-2011, 08:00 AM
Couldn't fall asleep...and it's too late to try.

I accept those points. Dreams generally are at least loosely based on reality. And the point regarding the weather is a solid one.

The world of WOT may indeed have continental drift. I interpreted the quote to mean that the reality of WOT was similar to the fantasy of the middle ages (not exactly the same, but similar) but I suppose that isn't exactly what it said, is it?

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2011, 08:10 AM
The world of WOT may indeed have continental drift. I interpreted the quote to mean that the reality of WOT was similar to the fantasy of the middle ages (not exactly the same, but similar) but I suppose that isn't exactly what it said, is it?

I always did consider it weird what is generally accepted as "mediaeval" in fantasy. Just because it's fantasy, doesn't automatically make it mediaeval. Tolkien's fantasy is, but Jordan's society is more comparable to the 16th century than the 10th. Although, human nature being what it is and being very similar (if not identical) in Randland and in our reality, it really could be any time, with war, politics, power struggles, diplomacy, merchants and science... there's some of it around at all times.

Terez
08-11-2011, 11:38 AM
RJ has often said that it's more like 18th century. That's probably why he said 'roughly' medieval.

GonzoTheGreat
08-11-2011, 11:45 AM
Basically, anything before the 1960s counts as medieval.