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sleepinghour
08-05-2011, 04:59 PM
"Get out of my way," he [Rand] grated. "I am not here for you!"

"The girl?" Ba'alzamon laughed. His mouth turned to flame. His burns were all but healed, leaving only a few pink scars that were already fading. He looked like a handsome man of middle years. Except for his mouth, and his eyes. "Which one, Lews Therin? You will not have anyone to help you this time. You are mine, or you are dead. In which case, you are mine anyway."[...]

"They [the Heroes of the Horn] will not save you," Ba'alzamon said. "Those who might save you will be carried far across the Aryth Ocean. If ever you see them again, they will be collared slaves, and they will destroy you for their new masters."

Egwene. I can't let them do that to her.

Now that we know Moridin has access to the Shadow's prophecies, this quote becomes more interesting. It could be argued that Ba'alzamon meant that all Aes Sedai would eventually be made damane, but it seems more likely he was referring to Egwene and Nynaeve specifically, as Liandrin was under orders to turn them over to Suroth in TGH. (Elayne and Min invited themselves and weren't meant to be there.) Furthermore, Gray Men were sent to assassinate Egwene and Nynaeve after they got back to the Tower in TDR. Why would the Shadow go to so much trouble to get rid of two untrained girls?

Whether Ba'alzamon was only taunting Rand at Falme or actually knew something, there's a good deal of foreshadowing in the books about Nynaeve resurrecting Rand. Many think she'll do it by ripping Rand out of T'A'R, which Egwene won't be needed for—Nynaeve has used Need on her own before and is the only one who saw Moghedien do it to Birgitte.

If Egwene also saves Rand, I think it will be unrelated to whatever Nynaeve does, and instead involve Egwene's Talent for Dreamwalking. She has previously lamented that she couldn't get into Rand's dreams and was determined to manage it sooner or later:

Rand's dreams had been a challenge, of course, one she could not fail to face. Now that she could flit from dream to dream, how could she not try where the Wise Ones failed? Only, attempting to enter his dreams had been like running headlong into an invisible stone wall. She knew that his dreams lay on the other side, and she was sure she could find a way through, but there had been nothing to work on, nothing to pry at. A wall of nothing. It was a problem she meant to worry at until she solved it. Once she put her mind on something, she could be as persistent as a badger.


A poster over at Dragonmount (http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/61322-tirck-or-treat/page__p__1878952#entry1878952) made an interesting observation about Rand's dream at the end of ToM. The place where he finds Cyndane strongly resembles the inside of a skull:

The vast room beyond was pure black, lightless, like a cavern deep beneath the ground. The room seemed to suck in the light and extinguish it. The screaming voice was inside. It was weak, as if it were being smothered by the darkness.

Rand entered. The darkness swallowed him. It seemed to pull the life out of him, like a hundred leeches sucking blood from his veins. He pressed onward. He couldn't distinguish the direction of the cries, so he moved along the walls; they felt like bone, smooth but occasionally cracked.

The room was round. As if he stood inside the bowl of an enormous skull. There! A faint light ahead, a single candle on the ground, illuminating a floor of black marble. Rand hurried toward it. Yes, there was a figure there. Huddled against the bone-white wall.

The poster speculated that the dream actually took place inside Moridin's head, which makes sense—after getting a view of Rand's head earlier in ToM via Nynaeve's Delving, it's only fitting that we get a look at Moridin's as well. Rand's head is full of light; Moridin's is full of darkness. Cyndane is there, too, either as a prisoner or willing bait.

ToM tried to present Mesaana as Egwene's dark counterpart by calling her "The Shadow's Amyrlin," but Lanfear is a better candidate, IMO. They met several times in the early books when Lanfear was disguised as Else Grinwell and Silvie. Both have T'A'R as their area of expertise and Lanfear is possibly also a Dreamer like Egwene (Brandon claimed there are both male and female Dreamers among the Forsaken).

I can't say I like the idea of Egwene being rewarded for her unfortunate habit of spying on and entering her friends' dreams, but too much time has been spent on her developing that particular ability for nothing to come of it. I think her role in AMoL will be to counter whatever Lanfear does in T'A'R/Rand's dreams and save Rand that way.

Terez
08-05-2011, 05:58 PM
Now that we know Moridin has access to the Shadow's prophecies, this quote becomes more interesting.
We also have hints from Brandon that Moridin is a Dreamer. Egwene dreamed of Ishamael, so what is to say he didn't dream of her as well?

It could be argued that Ba'alzamon meant that all Aes Sedai would eventually be made damane, but it seems more likely he was referring to Egwene and Nynaeve specifically, as Liandrin was under orders to turn them over to Suroth in TGH.Probably, but Egwene did have a dream of a long line of Aes Sedai being collared and being forced to attack the Tower. That hasn't happened yet, since the Seanchan haven't found a way around the Oaths yet (and they only now have a good number of Aes Sedai captives).

Furthermore, Gray Men were sent to assassinate Egwene and Nynaeve after they got back to the Tower in TDR. Why would the Shadow go to so much trouble to get rid of two untrained girls?Most of us have always assumed that it was obvious they were dangerous because of their potential strength and their closeness with the ta'veren, but that's not to say that Moridin doesn't know something specific about them. It wouldn't surprise me.

Whether Ba'alzamon was only taunting Rand at Falme or actually knew something, there's a good deal of foreshadowing in the books about Nynaeve resurrecting Rand. Many think she'll do it by ripping Rand out of T'A'R, which Egwene won't be needed for—Nynaeve has used Need on her own before and is the only one who saw Moghedien do it to Birgitte.I believe that DomA from Wotmania/rafo.com has theorized that Egwene's role will have more to do with the sealing of the Bore, since it seems likely she'll be busy in the real world while Nynaeve is busy resurrecting Rand. But the Dreamworld aspect of the Last Battle has the ability to get pretty complex and unpredictable. Rand didn't exactly expect Nynaeve to show up to help him with Rahvin, and Nynaeve didn't expect to find him there in Tel'aran'rhiod, either. She just went there with a small hope of being able to do something to help him, and there he was.

If Egwene also saves Rand, I think it will be unrelated to whatever Nynaeve does, and instead involve Egwene's Talent for Dreamwalking. She has previously lamented that she couldn't get into Rand's dreams and was determined to manage it sooner or laterI just wonder if she could do it. Rand is sure that he has complete control over his dreams; he was surprised at Cyndane being there because he had no idea what was going on.

A poster over at Dragonmount (http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/61322-tirck-or-treat/page__p__1878952#entry1878952) made an interesting observation about Rand's dream at the end of ToM. The place where he finds Cyndane strongly resembles the inside of a skull...Indeed. I saw it more as a glimpse into the mind of the Dark One himself, via Moridin, via the link. I even tried to read into the scenery as being tied to the Perun legends (http://perun.ca/Stories.aspx) (Brandon commented (http://www.facebook.com/home.php#%21/BrandonSandrson?v=wall&story_fbid=131516600202798&ref=mf) on them as he was writing TOM) - the Mountains of Mist become the roots of a great tree (which you could say is also symbolized by the historical connection between the west coast and Avendesora, which was likely due to a different chora tree having been left there when the Aiel reached the Aryth, under which lay Comelle), and from that great tree, the two rivers flow - the dead water, and the living water. The former might be the Tarendrelle, for obvious reasons; RJ told that story in TEOTW 9. And those who escaped to live, escaped across the Manetherendrelle. Which just so happens to flow to Illian, which is for some as-yet-revealed reason tied to the Horn of Valere in legend. It also happens to represent the border between Rand's lands and Tuon's - specifically, the border between the only nation where Rand holds a crown, and the nation where Tuon has made her capital.

The poster speculated that the dream actually took place inside Moridin's head, which makes sense—after getting a view of Rand's head earlier in ToM via Nynaeve's Delving, it's only fitting that we get a look at Moridin's as well. Rand's head is full of light; Moridin's is full of darkness. Cyndane is there, too, either as a prisoner or willing bait.I tend to think it likely that Moridin consciously drew Rand into his mind - into a dream of his own making that just so happens to purposefully reflect the true nature of his mind at the moment - just because Rand accidentally clued Moridin into the fact that they could access each other's dreams in TGS. Moridin might have been putting on an act in that scene, but he seems to have been confused at first as to how Rand had gotten there. And there is no evidence that he had previously attempted to get into Rand's dreams since Rand started warding them forever ago, but via the link he might could have gotten in before. Rand did dream of him sometimes, but there's nothing to indicate it was anything beyond dreaming Moridin's dreams. So, once Moridin knew it was possible, he hastened to take advantage. Or rather, he planned to do it at an opportune moment. That is, the moment that their plans are set into motion. Caemlyn is being attacked, and by now there have probably been a hundred or so channelers turned to the Dark, at least. I'm really hoping for a Logain POV in the prologue! But I doubt Rand accidentally stumbled into Moridin's head at just the right (wrong) time. It may be that Moridin is fully in control when Rand wakes up.

ToM tried to present Mesaana as Egwene's dark counterpart by calling her "The Shadow's Amyrlin," but Lanfear is a better candidate, IMO. They met several times in the early books when Lanfear was disguised as Else Grinwell and Silvie. Both have T'A'R as their area of expertise and Lanfear is possibly also a Dreamer like Egwene (Brandon claimed there are both male and female Dreamers among the Forsaken).It has been noted for a long time that Lanfear and Moghedien were the best in the Dream, and I've said before that I don't think it's a coincidence that Moridin has those two on a leash. He knows what he's going up against. RJ has developed both Egwene and Perrin to counter this, aside from Nynaeve's role, and there are others who know what they are doing. Elayne has not been making copies just so everyone can pat her on the back and give her cookies. Anyway, I'm betting that Perrin will come into the picture with the dreamspike, but that Slayer won't be alone this time. And I'm assuming that will happen before Rand dies. Once Rand dies, Slayer's main objective will be permanent assassination. It's what he was made for. Also, I'm thinking Perrin investigating the dreamspike has got to be a prologue scene. He mentioned last we saw him that he was planning on investigating it, either the night before he went to Merrilor or the night of (the latter of which is the night Rand had his dream - he was asleep on the field of Merrilor).

I'm liking the idea that Egwene will try one last time on the Field of Merrilor to do the impossible and break into Rand's dreams. I just wonder how she could be successful, unless Rand's warding somehow slips. In any case, it would likely coincide with Perrin's investigation of the dreamspike at the Black Tower...and Egwene might possibly be involved with that battle. Elaida's Foretelling seems to hint at it, by tying the Amyrlin to the battle. It just seems a little more likely that Rand will wake up evil, and no one will know. Except maybe Egwene, and Moiraine. :) It was of course foreshadowed in Egwene's Accepted test, and in TEOTW 13 for Moiraine. I would rather Moiraine and Gawyn do the deed, though. It makes more sense for many reasons. Egwene gives the orders, and the Mordreds do the butchering.

PS - As for the 'saving Rand' bit...like the Aelfinn said, in order for Rand to survive the Last Battle, he has to die. Moridin is the most likely reason why. Nynaeve has to bring him back, so Egwene could technically help on either front, or both (that is, she can help kill him, and she can help resurrect him - Nynaeve will need help, since she doesn't seem likely to be prepared to face Slayer...though I have ventured before that, if Lan dies, he could help her against his cousin).

FelixPax
08-05-2011, 06:25 PM
Why would the Shadow go to so much trouble to get rid of two untrained girls?

Ever heard of the 'Cutter of the Shadow', aka Latra Posae Decume?

That particular soul was re-born as Egwene al'Vere. Both the Shadow and Birgitte have good reason to fear her.


In Nynaeve's case, she is the one female channeler Rand al'Thor trusts over literally everyone.

Remember the Soldier Amyrlin and Queen Ethenielle Kirukon Materasu? That's two prior lives Nynaeve's soul has lived.


The place where he finds Cyndane strongly resembles the inside of a skull:

Cyndane is not, nor ever was Mierin.
Cyndane is Cyndane; Mierin is Mierin.
Two different individuals entirely.

Cyndane is a woman under Moridin's compulsion. Why? To fool the other Chosen of his real plans.


Rand al'Thor met Mierin sometimes known as Lanfear or Else Grinwell in that particular ToM Book, Epilogue scene. Not Cyndane.

Just as Moiraine once told Perrin, shielding of dreams only is effective for outside threats, not internal threats (TDR). Moridin is tied to Rand's soul now; Moridin can literally view things through Rand's eyeballs now. Padan Fain Mordeth, agrees and spoke of this very mechanism to Lord Bornhald in Two Rivers. Moridin used this same mechanism to see through Bors eyes once before too, thus learning of Sammael's Ebou Dar plans by chance. When Rand channels or holds the Power, Moridin can view things through Rand's eyes.

When Rand does not hold the Power or Void, Padan Fain Mordeth Sammael (The Creature) can track him down easily. It's a talent the Dark One gave to Padan Fain, before fighting the Shadow as the Creature. Bluntly, Rand al'Thor is not safe anywhere in the Pattern, as long as he lives in the "Flesh" or "waking world"--either Moridin or The Creature can track him.




Who is going to save Rand?

I do not really care for how this question is outlined or drawn, considering that Rand al'Thor's Flesh is going to die in AMoL book.


Question is who can healed Death? Who's memory can save Rand? Who can re-create an entirely World? Re-create a golden Age, the Beginning?


Nynaeve al'Meara.



The poster speculated that the dream actually took place inside Moridin's head, which makes sense—after getting a view of Rand's head earlier in ToM via Nynaeve's Delving, it's only fitting that we get a look at Moridin's as well.

Too bad it's unclear where Mierin's Flesh is being held technically? Vacuole? Eelfinn-ville? Shayol Ghul? Elsewhere?


It seems like Moridin as Ishamael was the first to explore another mind or waking dreams. L.T.T's mind.

He was alone, as alone as a man could be while still alive, yet he could not escape memory. The eyes pursued him through the endless caverns of his mind. He could not hide from them. His children’s eyes. Ilyena’s eyes. Tears glistened on his cheeks as he turned his face to the sky.


The Eye of the World, Prologue "Dragonmount" -- L.T.T point of view with Ishamael inside his mind



ToM tried to present Mesaana as Egwene's dark counterpart by calling her "The Shadow's Amyrlin," but Lanfear is a better candidate, IMO.

Mierin/Lanfear did not smell bad to Hurin after leaving a Mirror World of Flesh set in the future. (TGH)

Mierin only did harm after her heart was broken, by Rand al'Thor on the docks of Cairhien. Rage of a broken hearted lover. A highly jealous possessive former lover of L.T.T's, at that.


Mierin never was a Shadow Amyrlin Seat. Mierin aimed higher. :D

Terez
08-06-2011, 05:16 AM
I meant to say...I would not be surprised if the outcome of Rand's dream is to fulfill part of the Broken Wolf prophecy - 'shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers'. But in that case he would have to follow her into the pit. However it happens, this is the moment I thought would come at the end of TOM, and it might have been originally planned that way (Brandon indicated that the Black Tower action was moved to AMOL). It was always a risky cliffhanger, though, so I wasn't surprised that they moved it. Gives us less time to figure everything out.

Anyway, toward the release of TOM I was starting to lean toward Gawyn mortally wounding Rand and Moiraine showing up in the nick of time to balefire him. It's trickier to see how that will go down on the Field of Merrilor, though, so it's more convenient for it to happen in Caemlyn as I originally thought. It's yet to be seen whether Moiraine will go directly to Merrilor or whether she'll go to Caemlyn. But if she finds that Rand has left Merrilor (very likely, by the pre-arranged time of noon - he'll have learned of the Caemlyn attack long before then, and Perrin will have investigated the dreamspike), then no doubt she will find him wherever he is. As she said, he will need her help (as he needed Egwene's in the Accepted test). Even Alivia will help somehow.

By the way, I'm thinking this was one of Moiraine's answers from the Aelfinn, that she would have to kill Rand. She might have even used her other two questions to ask more details about that. She might have used one of her wishes with the Eelfinn to free herself from the Third Oath, if not all three, but in either case it seems that 1) she would have had to use the other wish to retain the ageless face, which she should not have known about at all, or 2) Mat was just seeing what he expected to see.

In other words, I don't think anyone will be 'saving' Rand at this point in the game except by killing him.

sythmaster
08-07-2011, 10:32 AM
[Just realized this is all in response to the comment of the Rand Dream as Moridin's Mind idea, not the saving of Rand via breaking through dreams.... however this could be used as a way for Cyndane to be a 'saver' ]

Hmmm, I never actually thought about the reverse "Moridin's mind" against the previous showing of Rand's in the book....

The scene does lead me to a curious question though...

This is all made to look like Cyndane is being held prisoner which, I had actually forgotten until I read this that her soul is - via the Mindtrap (cour'souvra) ...

Given this, and Rand/Moridin's intertwining..... will Rand actually be able to control or, possibly, neutralize Moridin's control over Cyndane?

Previously, I thought that the Mindtrap was merely the necklace/pendant Moridin had on... but they way this section[dream of Cyndane in ToM] reads, which is very reminiscent of scenes where the True Power is present... there may be more to it...

Thoughts?

sleepinghour
08-08-2011, 05:59 AM
I'm liking the idea that Egwene will try one last time on the Field of Merrilor to do the impossible and break into Rand's dreams. I just wonder how she could be successful, unless Rand's warding somehow slips.

Egwene might try to get a look at Rand's dreams before the Merrilor meeting, but I don't think she will actually succeed at that point. I think it will happen a little later down the line.

Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet. [...]
A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness.

If Rand was badly injured then it might be easier to get past his wards. Or he might actually allow her in to communicate with her while unconscious. Whether Rand's soul is in Moridin's body, or sharing his own body with Moridin's soul (much like Luc/Isam), Egwene should be able to find the right dream in the dream world.

I think what we're seeing in these last three books is a reversal of the two Accepted tests. In the third arch, Nynaeve left Lan behind; in ToM she was able to bring him with her. After the second arch, Nynaeve told Sheriam: "I left my friend...I left my people...in the Pit of Doom to come back." In ToM, she agreed to follow Rand to Shayol Ghul and will most likely do so in AMoL, maybe even to the Pit of Doom itself. In the first arch, she defeated a Forsaken but allowed him to escape alive, which was mirrored in real life with Moghedien, and Nynaeve will most likely be the one who kills her in AMoL.

In Egwene's third arch, she was ambushed by the Black Ajah and lost the Amyrlin Seat to Elaida; in TGS the opposite happened. In the second arch...

"Tell me why," she demanded. "Why would you ask me to—to murder you? I will Heal you, I will do anything to get you out of there, but I cannot kill you. Why?"
"They can turn me, Egwene." His breathing was so tortured, she wished she could weep. "If they take me—the Myrddraal—the Dreadlords—they can turn me to the Shadow. If madness has me, I cannot fight them. I won't know what they are doing till it is too late. If there is even a spark of life left when they find me, they can still do it. Please, Egwene. For the love of the Light. Kill me."


[Egwene] knew she would have to order men to die in battle sooner or later, and she thought she might be able to order a death if the need was great enough. If one death could stop the death of thousands, or even hundreds, was it not right to order it?

I can see Rand giving the order and Egwene telling Alivia (who is not bound by the Oaths) to do the deed, possibly with balefire so the Dark One can't transmigrate Moridin's soul. To everyone else, it will look like Egwene betrayed him. Then Nynaeve rips him from T'A'R.

Terez
08-08-2011, 03:40 PM
Rand giving the order is very hard for me to see at this point, but I do find Egwene's observation here interesting:

"Egwene, what if al'Thor isn't coming? What if he did this to distract everyone from whatever else he's doing?"

"Why would he do that?" Egwene said. "He's already proven that he can avoid being found, if he wants to." She shook her head. "Gawyn, he knows he shouldn't break those seals. A part of him does, at least. Perhaps that's why he told me—so I could gather resistance, so I could talk him out of it."

Gawyn nodded. No further complaint or argument. It was a wonder how he'd changed. He was as intense as ever, yet less abrasive. Ever since that night with the assassins, he had started doing as she asked. Not as a servant. As a partner dedicated to seeing her will done.
I included that last bit just to highlight Gawyn's role again. :D

As for the Mindtrap...it's possible Rand could counter Moridin's control of Cyndane, but I think unlikely, since the device itself seems to be his instrument of control, rather than his mind, exactly. Rand has access to his mind, but not to the Mintrap itself.

Enigma
08-09-2011, 12:34 PM
As for the Mindtrap...it's possible Rand could counter Moridin's control of Cyndane, but I think unlikely, since the device itself seems to be his instrument of control, rather than his mind, exactly. Rand has access to his mind, but not to the Mintrap itself.

Given that the person trapped can feel when the mind trap is being rubbed by the holder it does seem that holding it is key.

Until its turned on fully it does not really do anyting but its the threat of what happens if that is done that controls the victim. In theory if character A is mindtrapped with the trap being held by Character B, A could do what ever he/she wants to do except that as soon as B finds out if they are pissed enought they can activate the mindtrap and the lights go out for person A. In theory if person A is brave enought and person B is not nearby to see what he is up to, A could make one last effort to help the light.

Lanfear/Cyndane seems far too self centred to be the sort to take one for the team if it meant helping the light win. On the other hand if she lost her temper.... Lanfear was known to do stupid things that are not in her self interest when really really angry.

sythmaster
08-09-2011, 04:37 PM
hmm, yeah that makes sense. Upon further reflection it seems that the mindtrap is the physical device and that's the source of the trap.

Though it would have been a cool twist using something from a couple books back as pivotal turning point in a scene. (ala Mat in the Tower)

Because I would find it quite amusing if Moridin is 'gloating' over Rand's body as he's dying and Rand is able to grab the device[mind trap] away just in time, causing Lanfear/Cyndane enough slack to go on a fury rampage to 'avenge' the death. Because no one but she is allowed to kill Rand/LTT.

That's totally not going to happen, but would of been amusing no less...


Back to some of the other stuff on this thread though...

I'm not 100% on Gawyn wanting to end Rand still as the quote posted above, seems to show Gawyn actually cooling down. Plus I think that if/when Gawyn meets Rand again, it will be in the presence of Egwene and he'll be able to use the bond to somehow see that Egwene wants/needs to take care of Rand in her own way. (yes, I know quite vague and unsupported)

However, the moved cliffhanger about the black tower does suggest Rand may die early on. And then pulled later on from T'A'R sounds reasonable...

But how will Nyn know that Rand/LTT is in T'A'R? Cause he'll fight in the Last Battle as one of the Heroes.

However, that has issues w/ the whole "Blood stain the side of Shayol Ghul" bit of the prophecies, might refer to more symbolic of Aiel deaths or Galad?

I haven't looked around the forum posts enough to see if this has been talked about yet, but if Rand dies early in the book... how is that part of prophecy fulfilled?

Terez
08-09-2011, 04:50 PM
Gawyn has totally cooled down, but he's taking orders from Egwene now...and she wants to stop Rand from breaking the seals.

And Rand's going to be resurrected to finish the job. He will break what he must break, and there will be some seriously scary consequences, including his death. But Nynaeve will bring him back. ;) She knows good and well where he will be when he dies. If not, she can ask Birgitte just to be sure. And Birgitte will laugh. He's essentially their leader, from what we saw at Falme.

sythmaster
08-09-2011, 05:03 PM
Hmm, true. Birgitte + T'A'R + Need.

However, if Nyn does pull Rand out of T'A'R will he have to get 'another' warder bond to survive?

Or will his previous bonds be a) still there and b) sufficient to keep him alive

(in reference to the shock Birgitte had when forcibly pulled out)

I noticed in another thread there was mention of a page about the whole Rand/Resurrection thing, I'm going to go read that before continuing this, lol.

[edit: just read over the "Blood on the Rocks" page, wow.... this is pretty much talking about all the stuff i'm thinking of on the fly. Including the Rand being transmigitigated, not pulled from T'A'R. noob shutting up now. ]

sleepinghour
08-09-2011, 05:39 PM
Lanfear/Cyndane seems far too self centred to be the sort to take one for the team if it meant helping the light win. On the other hand if she lost her temper.... Lanfear was known to do stupid things that are not in her self interest when really really angry.
It would also be an interesting scenario if Rand got hold of the mindtraps and forced the female Forsaken to help him seal the Bore with the True Power, which would prevent saidin and saidar from becoming tainted. The Dark One would probably rescind their access before they got that far, though, so I don't think it'll happen that way.

However, if Nyn does pull Rand out of T'A'R will he have to get 'another' warder bond to survive?

I think that's a pretty safe bet... It doesn't make sense for the bond to remain intact after Rand's death or reactivate when he returns. However, Elayne might not be able to bond him again for the same reason that Melaine couldn't attend the first sister ceremony—her unborn children might end up included in the bond. So it's possible Nynaeve will bond him initially and then pass the bond to Aviendha or Min (Lan in ACoS on Nynaeve finding a Warder: "I hope she finds a hero out of legend."). I've also seen it suggested that Aviendha will bond him while pregnant and that's why her kids end up strange.

Terez
08-09-2011, 05:48 PM
Hmm, true. Birgitte + T'A'R + Need.

However, if Nyn does pull Rand out of T'A'R will he have to get 'another' warder bond to survive?
Probably. That seems to be why the three women are important on the boat (and it might also be the 'three become one' thing).

I noticed in another thread there was mention of a page about the whole Rand/Resurrection thing, I'm going to go read that before continuing this, lol.

[edit: just read over the "Blood on the Rocks" page, wow.... this is pretty much talking about all the stuff i'm thinking of on the fly. Including the Rand being transmigitigated, not pulled from T'A'R. noob shutting up now. ]
haha, you don't have to shut up. But yes, reading pages like that is helpful.

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 06:51 PM
This is all made to look like Cyndane is being held prisoner which, I had actually forgotten until I read this that her soul is - via the Mindtrap (cour'souvra) ...

There is no proof nor evidence Mierin died within the Eelfinn realm. Moiraine's point of view in Towers of Midnight reflects this claim.

Sythmaster if your going to continue to claim Cyndane's body possesses the mind of Mierin, you have to offer reasons and solid evidence as to why.

Sounds as if your frequent one of the other more gossip oriented WoT forums... say Dragonmount? Lucker's arguments and claims in this particular topic of Cyndane & Mierin, are akin to fresh cow crap piled on top of a slice beef swallowed by the masses. Unholy. Sickening. Stroke inducing. Idiotic.


Gawyn has totally cooled down, but he's taking orders from Egwene now...and she wants to stop Rand from breaking the seals.

AMoL Prediction: Terez is incorrect again.

Gawyn will not follow Egwene al'Vere order or suggestions, regarding the Seals nor about Rand al'Thor.

Given a choice of following his Mother Morgase, and sister's Elayne Trakand claims or Egwene's commands. Gawyn will follow his vows to protect Elayne as First Prince of Andor and to follow, to believe in his Mother Morgase Trakand. "The honor of blood; the truth of blood." (aCoS)


AMoL Prediction, Mutiny: Gawyn Trakand will be one of the many Warders, connected to and supporting a Warder Mutiny of their Aes Sedai. Warders will support Gareth Bryne, Morgase, Novices, Accepted, Kitchen folk, Kinswomen, Aiel Wise Ones, Red Ajah Head, Nobles over the Amyrlin Seat.

If Egwene does not change her mind about Rand al'Thor breaking the seals, she shall lose Gawyn's heart and support.


Egwene's Foretelling Dream of Gawyn remains unfilled:

She stands at fork in road. Gawyn rides up not seeing her. One road leads to violent death, the other, long life. Down one road they marry, the other, not. Gawyn smiles and chooses

Recall Egwene and Gawyn are not married, as of ToM Epilogue book. :D


One unusual thing about the Dragon prophecies is:

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man’s salvation.’ ”

“Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
Red on black, the Dragon’s blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.”

The Great Hunt, Chapter 26 "Discord" -- Rand al'Thor point of view


Considering that Rand al'Thor is a False Dragon, another male individual's blood shall be dropped on the rocks of Shayol Ghul to fulfill prophecy. Blood of one, Valan Luca.



However, if Nyn does pull Rand out of T'A'R will he have to get 'another' warder bond to survive?

Answer: No.

Reason: New Beginning, New Pattern, New Life.


Who's to say if "the Beginning" shall be created in the T'A'R?

I highly doubt "The Beginning" will occur within the current Pattern.

To re-boot the Wheel, the Pattern, the Creator needs to move outside the Pattern. That means being physically in one of the following:


Void
Skimming
Vacuole


Some readers have mentioned a possibility of a Mirror World reflection with People, as another option.


This particular topic area is far more open-ended, and flexible.

sythmaster
08-09-2011, 07:42 PM
There is no proof nor evidence Mierin died within the Eelfinn realm. Moiraine's point of view in Towers of Midnight reflects this claim.

Sythmaster if your going to continue to claim Cyndane's body possesses the mind of Mierin, you have to offer reasons and solid evidence as to why.

Sounds as if your frequent one of the other more gossip oriented WoT forums... say Dragonmount? Lucker's arguments and claims in this particular topic of Cyndane & Mierin, are akin to fresh cow crap piled on top of a slice beef swallowed by the masses. Unholy. Sickening. Stroke inducing. Idiotic.

This is actually the only WoT forum I post / visit, I'm just quite green Felix. I see the false assumption I used in my ...musing?... above.

As far as the 'gossip oriented' bit.. are you referring to my tone or the ,seemingly, 'off-handed' comments I make. If it's the former, I'm not sure that will get fixed. However, I'm aware of the latter and will try to improve on that.

I'll go over the books again and see if I can find the text that had me auto-assume the connection (combined with the bit from ToM you mentioned).


Answer: No.

Reason: New Beginning, New Pattern, New Life.

...


I'm okay with the reason, but I'm unfamiliar with the part about a new pattern... do you mean thread? Where did this reasoning come from? (I'm generally curious here, as the parts you mention later had the wheels turning in my head a bit on some, offhanded, ideas)

As far as the Gawyn part, I see where you are coming from, and while I wouldn't call it a 'Mutiny', from the quote used above to show "calming":

...
Gawyn nodded. No further complaint or argument. It was a wonder how he'd changed. He was as intense as ever, yet less abrasive. Ever since that night with the assassins, he had started doing as she asked. Not as a servant. As a partner dedicated to seeing her will done.

As Gawyn is a 'partner' now, I'd like to say that this would give Gawyn the opportunity to point out times when Egwene may be in the minority of an opinion? Though I can't say for sure as there is ambiguity in the idea of "her will done". Is this merely her spoken will aloud? Or will Gawyn assume a different will for that as of Amyrlin Seat?

The Unreasoner
08-09-2011, 08:36 PM
You have to take Felix's posts with a grain of salt.

Although I half-suspect he is BS or someone else on Team Jordan.

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 09:24 PM
This is actually the only WoT forum I post / visit, I'm just quite green Felix. I see the false assumption I used in my ...musing?... above.

Okay, that's cool.

Granted some other a few fellow HCFF's at Theoryland forum, still paradoxically continue believe that Cyndane body possesses Mierin/Lanfear's soul. I suspect Terez is one of those. (Terez has some alternate theories about Callandor, Gawyn, Caemlyn too. None of which I see strong evidence supporting.)

If one searches the archive, one can find disputes on Cyndane, Mierin identities.


I'll go over the books again and see if I can find the text that had me auto-assume the connection (combined with the bit from ToM you mentioned).

In general, focusing on the psychology & motivation of characters will give readers ample clues about mysterious characters. Psychological tension is key.

Also look for, and write down any word metaphors you see repeated across the series. Word clusters; Descriptions. Robert Jordan likes to repeat and blend his metaphors in scenes which foreshadow the conclusion of the series. He knew the ending, before writing 'The Eye of the World' book. That's one reason tEotW book, took four years to write. WoT series is akin to a Russian Doll, larger dolls contain and hide multiple smaller dolls.



Err... I mistyped who's point of view to look for in Towers of Midnight book. :o Look for Mat Cauthon's pov just after Moiraine is saved from the Tower of Ghenjei, and Rand point of view of Mierin in the Epilogue.

Then look at Rand pov with Lanfear in Rhuidean, where she mentions their secret plans in 2nd Age (TSR, Chapter 58). Look specifically at what Cyndane's pov states in Winter's Heart book during the Cleansing. Then contrast that with what Lanfear states to Rand in Rhuidean. Notice that Rand is holding the Power via the Void, when Lanfear speaks. These are extremely important scenes, as Moridin is later seen popping up in Rand's Mind (KoD). Moridin can see, hear thru Rand's eyes, ears when Rand is holding the Power. This Theory, is one reason Moridin only uses the True Power since his re-birth.

Likewise Moridin learned of Sammael's Ebou Dar related plans via Bor's eyes, when he saw Matrim Cauthon in Ebou Dar.


Perhaps I should summarize all this, with quotations? Hmm....


I'm okay with the reason, but I'm unfamiliar with the part about a new pattern... do you mean thread? Where did this reasoning come from? (I'm generally curious here, as the parts you mention later had the wheels turning in my head a bit on some, offhanded, ideas)

See a Fourth Age writing found at the end of 'The Dragon Reborn' book:


And it was written that no hand but his should wield the Sword held in the Stone, but he did draw it out, like fire in his hand, and his glory did burn the world. Thus did it begin. Thus do we sing his Rebirth. Thus do we sing the beginning.

—from Do’in Toldara te, Songs of the Last Age,
Quarto Nine: The Legend of the Dragon.
Composed by Boanne,
Songmistress at Taralan,
the Fourth Age



As Gawyn is a 'partner' now, I'd like to say that this would give Gawyn the opportunity to point out times when Egwene may be in the minority of an opinion? Though I can't say for sure as there is ambiguity in the idea of "her will done". Is this merely her spoken will aloud? Or will Gawyn assume a different will for that as of Amyrlin Seat?

Considering Egwene al'Vere is against compulsion, Gawyn retains his free will. Gawyn gave an vow, an Oath to protect Elayne Trakand, as Queen of Andor.

Egwene al'Vere never gained Elayne's obedience or absolute support. Elayne is one cause for Gawyn to Mutiny or leave Egwene if she's is too stubborn. Morgase is another cause. Tigraine being Rand al'Thor's birth mother is another cause.

Sorilea, Amys, Rhuarc, Aviendha, Siuan can also break-up Egwene al'Vere support among Aes Sedai, simply by mentioning Egwene al'Vere claimed to be Aes Sedai before earning that title. Egwene's position is far weaker, than she believes as of ToM Epilogue.

sleepinghour
08-10-2011, 06:11 AM
This is actually the only WoT forum I post / visit, I'm just quite green Felix. I see the false assumption I used in my ...musing?... above.

Felix is a troll, don't pay him any mind unless you find his posts amusing. He also likes to claim that Valan Luca is the real Dragon Reborn.

Zombie Sammael
08-10-2011, 06:27 AM
Felix is a troll, don't pay him any mind unless you find his posts amusing. He also likes to claim that Valan Luca is the real Dragon Reborn.

I think calling Felix a troll is a little unfair. He is genuinely participating and a part of the community, which isn't trolling. He's just doing it strangely.

sleepinghour
08-10-2011, 06:53 AM
I think calling Felix a troll is a little unfair. He is genuinely participating and a part of the community, which isn't trolling. He's just doing it strangely.
What I think is unfair is someone misleading newcomers and giving them the impression that they're doing something wrong:
Sythmaster if your going to continue to claim Cyndane's body possesses the mind of Mierin, you have to offer reasons and solid evidence as to why.

Sounds as if your frequent one of the other more gossip oriented WoT forums... say Dragonmount? Lucker's arguments and claims in this particular topic of Cyndane & Mierin, are akin to fresh cow crap piled on top of a slice beef swallowed by the masses. Unholy. Sickening. Stroke inducing. Idiotic.

If you don't think that's trolling...well, then we clearly have very different ideas about what trolling is.

Terez
08-10-2011, 12:31 PM
I agree. The only reason we're lenient with Felix is because he's either 1) a very good actor, or 2) batshit insane. But if he's taking over the forum and you guys have a problem with it, let me know.

Zombie Sammael
08-10-2011, 12:44 PM
If you don't think that's trolling...well, then we clearly have very different ideas about what trolling is.

I think we (and by we, I mean the people who actually do the day to day running of the site, so not me) need to have a serious think about where the line between trolling and good-natured joking is. One can make the argument that Felix did cross it there, but one can also say that if sythmaster had a good enough knowledge of the books he'd be able to produce a quote off the top of his head that would dismiss what Felix said; hence it was a practical joke on a newbie. I say this because of course there have been other incidents, as well; it's also true that some of the people who have been here the longest like to "troll" each other and noobs.

But like I said, I'm not running the site.

Terez
08-10-2011, 12:48 PM
it's also true that some of the people who have been here the longest like to "troll" each other and noobs.
This is none of your concern, but if you want to avoid it, then don't be an aggressive and/or annoying noob. There are two ways to respond to that, and we use both.

PS - No further discussion of Felix and/or trolling here.

PPS - A good place to discuss Felix, rules, regulations, etc., is in the rules thread on this forum.

Ishara
08-10-2011, 01:10 PM
This is actually the only WoT forum I post / visit, I'm just quite green Felix. I see the false assumption I used in my ...musing?... above.


Hey - welcome, get comfy! :)

Take a quick spin by the noob board for the basic guidelines by which we run the place and don't sweat the random feedback so much. You're doing fine.

AbbeyRoad
08-10-2011, 02:04 PM
Felix is a troll, don't pay him any mind unless you find his posts amusing. He also likes to claim that Valan Luca is the real Dragon Reborn.
No, he claims Valan Luca is a Hero of the Horn. The Dragon is Mat!

A poster over at Dragonmount made an interesting observation about Rand's dream at the end of ToM. The place where he finds Cyndane strongly resembles the inside of a skull
Can't believe I missed that one. The visual imagery makes it so obvious, in retrospect.

Terez
08-10-2011, 02:08 PM
I thought Mat was the Car'a'carn.

Zombie Sammael
08-10-2011, 02:25 PM
I thought Mat was the Car'a'carn.

No, Mat is He Who Comes With The Dawn, the Car'a'carn is Aviendha. Who the Coramoor is anyone's guess (well, anyone who gives a shit).