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Terez
08-07-2011, 11:21 AM
I ran across Linda's predictions for AMOL today (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/perspective-on-amol.html), and it reminded me that I'd started writing a thread about the Seanchan some time ago, which got eaten by vbulletin. Linda and I have some very different ideas about how AMOL will go down. Moreover, Linda seems to be determined to abstain from theorizing this year, maybe so that it's not so obvious this time when the beta call goes out. In other words, her ideas were thrown together after TOM, and she has no desire to argue them or further develop them (theorizing has never really been her thing, though there is a little bit of it in everything she does).

The main point that I think is counterintuitive for most people is that the Field of Merrilor, combined with the Peace of the Dragon seen in the visions of Aviendha, makes for a really gigantic red herring intended to detract from the fact that Rand is going to die early in AMOL. I even think it is possible that this was originally planned to happen at the end of TOM, as many of us expected, but that Brandon and Team Jordan decided it was better not to end the book with that particular cliffhanger, since technically RJ never planned to do so. It was risky - killing off the Dragon Reborn, and the Last Battle has just begun. The fandom would have gone crazy over that, and I'm not talking about the net fandom. We would have taken it in stride, of course. I'm talking about the average fan.

Brandon indicated that he moved the end of TOM to the beginning of AMOL, and that this mostly focused on the Black Tower. He also originally indicated that all the major plotlines would be reunited at one place at the end of TOM, and later he said that didn't quite happen. Apparently he was referring to Mat, since he's the only major missing party at Merrilor not counting Tuon.

In order for anything like the Peace of the Dragon to be established at Merrilor, there has to be a truce with Tuon. I don't think it's quite as simple as, "Oh, Mat's back, he can go grab her up." They have to come to an agreement, and RJ didn't build the conflict to have it resolved in a rush because Oh No Caemlyn Is Being Attacked! So it seems incredibly unlikely that a truce can be reached with Tuon before Rand dies. Because of Arthurian legend, Rand's death is linked to the Battle of Caemlyn, and Egwene's dream of Logain also seems to back that up.

That means that the truce will likely be reached without Rand, and that all he will have to do when he's resurrected is kneel to the Empress, and everyone will be happy. It may be that she's even defeated most of the Shadow's armies by then (with the help of Mat), with nothing left to do but the business at Shayol Ghul.

The obvious problems in coming to a truce with the Seanchan:

1. Tuon thinks she should rule the world, and the Randland nobles have a problem with that.

2. The Randlanders also have a problem with slavery, particularly the collaring of channelers.

This leads the average reader to believe that, duh, the Seanchan are the problem and they need to be defeated. I see it as indicating more of a compromise. RJ was a monarchist, by his own words. He probably sees the Empire as being a good thing for that reason, and the way he has presented the Seanchan in the books supports the idea. Because the rule of the Empress is so absolute, order is maintained; only with unity can they fight against the Shadow.

Hawkwing is seen as the greatest leader in history, and his Empire was seen as the height of human civilization and justice by everyone except for the nobles who lost their power when Hawkwing rose. Sometimes he was harsh with them, but RJ tells it as if this was because their power was more important to them than the peace of the land, and Hawkwing was right to put down their rebellions and redraw his districts so that their old power bases were no longer significant at all.

Tuon's approach on this front is a little different. She allows monarchs under her power to keep their crowns and their lands, and preserve their cultures, so long as they commit no treasons against the Crystal Throne. She retains the same sort of power that Hawkwing had, and comes off as a little bit nicer.

So, the only thing left to object about is essentially the issue of slavery. Tuon cannot be Empress of all Randland unless she concedes this point. In the future that Aviendha saw, neither concession was made. Tuon was not Empress of all Randland, and the Seanchan continued to collar channelers. I think this is RJ's way of driving home the point that, in order to destroy the practice of collaring channelers, the rulers of Randland must show some humility and make a compromise. In the end, it has the potential to be better for everyone - at least, it does by RJ's monarchist point of view.

I believe this agreement will mostly be reached without Rand, after his death. In fact, I think his death (apparently permanent, at least to Tuon) will the the inspiration for the compromise on both sides. They have nothing left to lose. Rand will be resurrected only to find that everything has been decided without him, and most likely he won't have any problem with it anyway. He said at Falme in TGS that the damane issue was the only point he would not concede.

Three of Egwene's dreams are especially significant:

TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 25 - Questions

The nightmares about what had happened inside the ter'angreal last night were easy enough to understand, though they had made her wake up weeping. She had dreamed of the Seanchan, too, of women in dresses with lightning bolts woven on their breasts, collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower. That had started her awake in a cold sweat, but that had to be just a nightmare, too. And the dream about Whitecloaks binding her father's hands. A nightmare brought on by homesickness, she supposed.The dream about her father was not just a nightmare, and the bolded bit likely isn't either. That hasn't happened yet, since the only women wearing the rings who could call lightning against the Tower are Accepted, and they got less than 20 of them in the TGS attack.

TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 48 - Following the Craft

Tel'aran'rhiod still showed her little of immediate use. Sometimes there had been glimpses of Rand, or Mat, or Perrin, and more in her own dreams without the ter'angreal, but nothing of which she could make any sense. The Seanchan, who she refused to think about. Nightmares of a Whitecloak putting Master Luhhan in the middle of a huge, toothed trap for bait. Why should Perrin have a falcon on his shoulder, and what was important about him choosing between that axe he wore now and a blacksmith's hammer? What did it mean that Mat was dicing with the Dark One, and why did he keep shouting, "I am coming!" and why did she think in the dream that he was shouting at her? And Rand. He had been sneaking through utter darkness toward Callandor, while all around him six men and five women walked, some hunting him and some ignoring him, some trying to guide him toward the shining crystal sword and some trying to stop him from reaching it, appearing not to know where he was, or only to see him in flashes. One of the men had eyes of flame, and he wanted Rand dead with a desperation she could nearly taste. She thought she knew him. Ba'alzamon. But who were the others? Rand in that dry, dusty chamber again, with those small creatures settling into his skin. Rand confronting a horde of Seanchan. Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan. It was all too confusing. She had to stop thinking about Rand and the others and put her mind to what was right ahead of her. What is the Black Ajah up to? Why don't I dream something about them? Light, why can't I learn to make it do what I want?Yet another dream of the Whitecloaks in the Two Rivers that she takes as a nightmare, and the bolded bit hasn't happened yet. If this happens before Rand dies, then the woman will likely be Egeanin or one of the channeling sul'dam. If it happens after Rand's resurrection, it might be Tuon.

TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 20 - In the Night

She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice, and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well have been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under her fingers.

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawl*ing accent.

Egwene pushed the dream away as she would have a viper. She felt her body thrash, heard herself groan in her sleep, but for a moment she could do nothing. She had dreamed of the Seanchan before, of a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her, but this was a Seanchan who would save her. No! They had put a leash on her, made her damane. She would as soon die as be saved by a Seanchan! A very long time passed before she could address herself to calming her sleeping body. Or maybe it only seemed a long time. Not a Seanchan; never that!I believe this refers to Egwene's struggle as Amyrlin to do her part for the Last Battle. The ledge dropping from underneath her represents Rand's death, and the Seanchan woman is Tuon, the sword on her back Justice. Their alliance is necessary to have a chance in the Last Battle - something Egwene might have never considered without Rand's death. It makes more sense to me, therefore, that the other dream of the Seanchan woman would take place after Rand's resurrection, when he discovers that everything has been decided without him, and the woman in that case is Tuon.

This might actually be what happened in the future that Aviendha saw, except that the truce was temporary. Aviendha will probably have something to do with pushing for a more permanent agreement, and Mat probably will too. It may be that Aviendha's convictions are necessary to convince them that the damane issue must be solved now - that there can be no compromise on that - and it may be that Mat is the only one who can convince them that the compromise on Seanchan rule is not only necessary but not as bad as it seems.

The Unreasoner
08-07-2011, 11:38 AM
What exactly are you arguing here? The Seanchan will rule the whole world? Okay. I can see that. I don't like it, but I can see it.

But do you really believe the meeting at the FoM is a red herring? When KoD was originally intended to be the penultimate book? And to distract from the Dragon's death? I can see that he is going to die, but you assume a host of requirements for that death that have little foundation in the novels.

And why are you so sure the woman with the sword is the Empress? Given the timing and setting, does Egeanin not seem more likely?

Terez
08-07-2011, 11:45 AM
What exactly are you arguing here?
Not much. Just trying to start an intelligent discussion about the last book (which I'm sure will happen as soon as the intelligent folk come along).

The Unreasoner
08-07-2011, 12:08 PM
which I'm sure will happen as soon as the intelligent folk come along
*pants*
Not to worry, we can start, I made it.

I'm here.

Zombie Sammael
08-07-2011, 12:41 PM
Not entirely sure I have a complete response yet, but a couple of questions:

1. Why do you think Rand will die so soon? Off the top of my head "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" implies something else.

2. Where do we stand timelines-wise for the FOM meeting versus the Battle of Caemlyn, or don't we know yet?

Terez
08-07-2011, 01:54 PM
Not entirely sure I have a complete response yet, but a couple of questions:

1. Why do you think Rand will die so soon? Off the top of my head "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" implies something else.
Several prophecies indicate Rand will die before winning the Last Battle, not least Nicola's Foretelling. I think it likely this was one of the main inspirations for RJ writing WoT in the first place, and one of the reasons why the supporting characters are so important. Have you read any of my FAQ articles? The Blood on the Rocks (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_988dx3mgj4k&revision=_latest) page might be illuminating. There are several different interpretations for 'blood on the rocks', but I tend to think that Rand's business at Shayol Ghul will be conducted after his resurrection.

2. Where do we stand timelines-wise for the FOM meeting versus the Battle of Caemlyn, or don't we know yet?
Caemlyn was being attacked the night before the meeting at Merrilor is supposed to happen - around the same time Rand had his dream (while he was asleep at Merrilor). Everyone arrived a day early. Grady, who is supposed to go fetch Mat at noon, is with Perrin at Merrilor. Perrin probably used that night to investigate the dreamspike, and I think it likely we'll get a prologue scene to that effect. Definitely a very early chapter. The implication is that Mat emerged from Ghenjei as everyone was arriving at Merrilor, roundabout. Some think they'll gate Mat directly to Merrilor without passing Caemlyn, but a good argument against that is that he'll want the rest of the Band. Of course, Grady might not be able to Travel to Caemlyn at all. But because of the Moiraine complication, I have a feeling they'll be alerted to the Caemlyn attack before noon.

It's also pretty likely that Tuon will attack the Tower or Merrilor on that day, but still unlikely that an agreement will be reached before Rand's death.

The Unreasoner
08-07-2011, 02:36 PM
LoC-14:
“The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.”

This Foretelling? I see this as of events beyond Tarmon Gaidon. And that Rand will be resurrected (if he is resurrected) after the confrontation.

You seem very confident that Rand will die and be resurrected before the confrontation. Do you mind if I ask why?

Terez
08-07-2011, 02:43 PM
I see this as of events beyond Tarmon Gaidon.
And yet, the future teeters on the edge of a blade. Do yourself a favor and read the page I just linked for Zombie Sammael. I wrote it up so I don't have to make the same arguments over and over again.

Zombie Sammael
08-07-2011, 02:43 PM
LoC-14:


This Foretelling? I see this as of events beyond Tarmon Gaidon. And that Rand will be resurrected (if he is resurrected) after the confrontation.

You seem very confident that Rand will die and be resurrected before the confrontation. Do you mind if I ask why?

I agree with The Unreasoner about the prophecy.

I think Rand's vision of Mierin at the end of TOM changes everything; I think he's going to miss Merrilor whilst off an a foolhardy and ultimately fatal rescue mission.

The FAQ Terez directed me to lays out her reasoning on Rand's death (read it before, now reading it again).

Terez
08-07-2011, 02:44 PM
I agree with The Unreasoner about the prophecy.
Ditto. Read the page, and then we'll talk.

The Unreasoner
08-07-2011, 02:58 PM
You've been pushing that 'Nynaeve will pull a Moghedien" since I got here. I think it's a great theory. What I doubt is the timing. Your placing the resurrection before the confrontation is, in my opinion, the weakest point. The future would teeter on the edge of a blade anyway, if Aviendha's visions are any guide. And the bonded Aes Sedai are a potential problem

And quotes of Min threatening consequences if Rand dies might be foreshadowing, and it might be nothing. And if it is foreshadowing, nothing indicates a time frame for it.

Edited to add:
Given the tone of the last couple books, I don't see why lonely wives doesn't provide sufficient cause.

Terez
08-07-2011, 03:04 PM
You've been pushing that 'Nynaeve will pull a Moghedien" since I got here. I think it's a great theory.
That's only a small part of the page. If you want the answers to the rest of it, read the logic tree. If you have arguments to make against it, then do so.

The future would teeter on the edge of a blade anyway, if Aviendha's visions are any guide. But that would have nothing to do with Rand's body on a boat, since he disappears after the Last Battle. And, as I said on the page you still haven't read, the world was done with battle because the Dragon's Peace had been established.

And quotes of Min threatening consequences if Rand dies might be foreshadowing, and it might be nothing. And if it is foreshadowing, nothing indicates a time frame for it.Again, read the page.

The Unreasoner
08-07-2011, 03:11 PM
I read the page. Or are you talking about your blog?

As for the Dragon's Peace fulfilling that role...
The line is:
The great battle done, but the world not done with battle
Your interpretation suggests:
The world done with battle, but the great battle not yet done.

Terez
08-07-2011, 03:13 PM
I read the page.
You must not have very good reading comprehension, then.

As for the Dragon's Peace fulfilling that role...
The line is:

Your interpretation suggests:
The world done with battle, but the great battle not yet done.
Nope. The great battle is Caemlyn (as I said on the page you didn't read), and the world is not done with battle because the Last Battle isn't yet won, which is why the world hangs in the balance and depends on Rand and the three women on the boat. If the Last Battle had been won, then Rand would be unimportant. You'd know all that, if...

The Unreasoner
08-07-2011, 03:22 PM
Maybe I didn't get that part because I see the Battle of Caemlyn and the front lines of Tarmon Gaidon as one and the same.

But:
And, as I said on the page you still haven't read, the world was done with battle because the Dragon's Peace had been established.
Doesn't square with
the world is not done with battle because the Last Battle isn't yet won

PS:
Did you delete my post?

Terez
08-07-2011, 03:26 PM
Maybe I didn't get that part because I see the Battle of Caemlyn and the front lines of Tarmon Gaidon as one and the same.
They're definitely connected. But the Battle of Caemlyn is the Shadow's big ploy as far as the regular battlefield goes, and it's far, far away from Shayol Ghul. They're not the same, though the Shadow might see it that way since they have reason to believe Rand will die there (presumably), or that he will be consumed by Moridin there. (There's probably another prophecy involved that Moridin allowed Demandred to interpret in his own special way - maybe the same one.)

But:
And, as I said on the page you still haven't read, the world was done with battle because the Dragon's Peace had been established.
Doesn't square with
the world is not done with battle because the Last Battle isn't yet won In what way?

The Unreasoner
08-07-2011, 03:35 PM
They're definitely connected. But the Battle of Caemlyn is the Shadow's big ploy as far as the regular battlefield goes, and it's far, far away from Shayol Ghul.
I never was one that assumed the Last Battle needed to occur at Shayol Ghul.
They're not the same, though the Shadow might see it that way since they have reason to believe Rand will die there (presumably), or that he will be consumed by Moridin there. (There's probably another prophecy involved that Moridin allowed Demandred to interpret in his own special way - maybe the same one.)
Still no real issue on my part...you do seem unusually confident Rand will die there though.
In what way?
If you didn't see where I was going with that, I won't bother.

PS:
DID YOU DELETE MY POST?

Southpaw2012
08-07-2011, 03:39 PM
Rand's death would make sense early on for the good reason of the world losing hope as the shadow dominates and that, as Terez has said, would leave the Seanchan with not much option but to sign a truce and help Randland fight back until Rand makes his epic insane comeback to seal the bore. I still buy into him dying a second time though and staying dead and not go into hiding at the end though.

Terez
08-07-2011, 03:40 PM
I never was one that assumed the Last Battle needed to occur at Shayol Ghul.
The prophecies say that Rand has to confront the Dark One there, and that the world depends on it. So it doesn't matter what you assume.

If you didn't see where I was going with that, I won't bother.
I think I see where your brain went, and it's funny, because it demonstrates your lack of reading comprehension.

Terez
08-07-2011, 03:51 PM
The Unreasoner has been banned for 2 days due to trolling. For the record, none of his posts that were deleted had anything to do with the topic at hand - they were just pure trolling.

Edit: His last post said 'I said "Last Battle", not "Confrontation"'. I had to delete that post to ban him (because he had put the trolling comments in his sig).

Zombie Sammael
08-07-2011, 03:54 PM
TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 14 - Dreams and Nightmares

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond(1). Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives(2). The great battle done, but the world not done with battle(3). The land divided by the return(4), and the guardians balance the servants(5). The future teeters on the edge of a blade(6)."


(1) This couldn't be more obvious. Any alternative interpretations should be reserved strictly to Felix. ;)

(2) This could refer to the four being on the boat after TG and leaving to go somewhere quiet (I hear the Land of Madmen is lovely this time of year).

(3) If the truce with the Seanchan is tenuous, as the next part of the prophecy suggests, this would explain why the world is not done with battles.

(4) The return refers to the Seanchan, the division to the Dragon Empire vs Tuon's. Against this is the fact that with the Dragon gone there would be little reason for the nations not to degenerate back into individual states once again, especially if Elayne goes with him since she is/will be Queen of two of the largest constituent nations.

(5) This simply means there are as many Asha'man as Aes Sedai, something Taim suggested would not be difficult back in LOC; in fact, he suggested he'd do it within a year. Rand referring to it is the best I could find right now, but here it is nonetheless:

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER 42, The Black Tower

“I’m pleased to see the recruiting going so well. You said you’d match the Tower . . . the White Tower...” White Tower; Black Tower. What would the stories make of that? If there were any. “...in less than a year, and if you keep on at this rate, you will. I don’t see how you find so many.”

(6) The future teetering on the edge of a blade does not necessarily mean Light or Shadow; it could as easily refer to a Seanchan conquest versus them being thrown back to the Aryth Ocean.

Generally, Rand is hardly central to this particular prophecy, especially not on my reading. There is one brief mention of him and it is conjoined with something else which, from a linguistic analysis of the property, need not be connected to it, e.g. "The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants." It is hard to see how these two things could be linked; comparing it to the lines about Rand and the girls suggests that "he who is dead yet lives" need not necessarily be directly connected with the "three on the boat", since the comma is used in the same manner as the full stop later in the prophecy.

Broadly, I find it difficult to disagree with anything you say, Terez, in the OP, bearing in mind of course the discussion we had yesterday about the a'dam, but we disagree about how that will happen, not that it will. I also tend to think, as I said briefly in my previous post, that this alliance will come about because of Rand's absence from the Merrilor meeting in a vain attempt to "rescue" Mierin, which will lead to his death and the fulfilling of the "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" prophecy. He need not be at the Battle of Caemlyn; while there is obviously major identification with the Battle of Camlaan, the closest thing Rand has to a Mordred is Moridin (whose name, come to think of it, is almost literally a combination of "Mordred" and "Morganna"); unless the loony theories are right and he is Taim he is unlikely to be there. Given the proximity of the Black Tower to Caemlyn, the Battle of Caemlyn and the resolution with Taim need not necessarily be two seperate events, depending on timing with Merrilor.

Sorry if this reads a little brain-dumpy, I'm a little unfocused this evening.

EDITED TO ADD: This was written before I had chance to see what had gone on with Terez and The Unreasoner just now - I couldn't see what was happening because I was writing this post. None of it has any bearing on my thoughts, however.

Terez
08-07-2011, 04:23 PM
(1) This couldn't be more obvious. Any alternative interpretations should be reserved strictly to Felix. ;)
Agreed. Some have put forth that one of them is Egwene, though...and it wasn't Felix. I've seen other candidates suggested too.

(2) This could refer to the four being on the boat after TG and leaving to go somewhere quiet (I hear the Land of Madmen is lovely this time of year).In that case, the future teetering on the edge of a blade would have nothing to do with Rand or the women. Both the Foretelling and the mirror dream make it clear that the the fate of the world is dependent on Rand.

Generally, Rand is hardly central to this particular prophecy, especially not on my reading. There is one brief mention of him and it is conjoined with something else which, from a linguistic analysis of the property, need not be connected to it, e.g. "The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants." It is hard to see how these two things could be linked; comparing it to the lines about Rand and the girls suggests that "he who is dead yet lives" need not necessarily be directly connected with the "three on the boat", since the comma is used in the same manner as the full stop later in the prophecy.They are linked because the world depends on his return. There would be no reason for him to be mentioned in the Foretelling or the mirror dream if he were not important. Especially not both. In the Wise Ones' dream, the other elements - great battle, guardians/servants, land divided by return - are not mentioned at all. Just Rand, the boat, the three women, and the scales swinging one way, and then the other.

(3) If the truce with the Seanchan is tenuous, as the next part of the prophecy suggests, this would explain why the world is not done with battles. It might, but 1) it doesn't fit with the Peace of the Dragon, which put an end to battle between the Seanchan and Randland, and 2) it has nothing to do with Rand.

(4) The return refers to the Seanchan, the division to the Dragon Empire vs Tuon's.Which also suggests that the Last Battle is not yet won, since the two must be as one for that to happen.

Against this is the fact that with the Dragon gone there would be little reason for the nations not to degenerate back into individual states once again, especially if Elayne goes with him since she is/will be Queen of two of the largest constituent nations.And again, Rand is by no means central to these events, and both the dream and the Foretelling centered on him.

(5) This simply means there are as many Asha'man as Aes Sedai, something Taim suggested would not be difficult back in LOC; in fact, he suggested he'd do it within a year.I doubt it, since one of the main themes of the series is men and women working together.

(6) The future teetering on the edge of a blade does not necessarily mean Light or Shadow; it could as easily refer to a Seanchan conquest versus them being thrown back to the Aryth Ocean.Not easily at all, considering the situation that's being set up (the Peace of the Dragon). And again, it has nothing to do with Rand.

I also tend to think, as I said briefly in my previous post, that this alliance will come about because of Rand's absence from the Merrilor meeting in a vain attempt to "rescue" Mierin, which will lead to his death and the fulfilling of the "his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" prophecy.This I doubt, partly because I don't want to believe that Rand is that stupid, and if he does go after, it would likely be in the dream, which Brandon left hanging. As yet unfulfilled is his merge with Moridin, which seems to play no part in your theory - and that is echoed in the Broken Wolf prophecy. He shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers (Moridin), and his destruction (his actual death, after he is consumed) shall cause fear and sorrow in the hearts of men.


He need not be at the Battle of Caemlyn; while there is obviously major identification with the Battle of Camlaan, the closest thing Rand has to a Mordred is Moridin (whose name, come to think of it, is almost literally a combination of "Mordred" and "Morganna")Actually, there are a few Mordred parallels:

1. Moridin
2. Mordeth/Fain
3. Demandred
4. Gawyn
5. Moiraine

I'd add Galad, but RJ indicated that that isn't going to happen. I suspect that Moridin and Gawyn both will have a role in Rand's death, but I doubt Demandred will get the chance (despite having been given the privilege), and Moridin's main role will be the consumption bit. The first three are the Shadow's main Mordred parallels, but the first two seem to be the most symbolic. Every time Rand has battled with a blademaster, he's encountered either Ishamael or Fain, and they gave him his two unhealable wounds. But I think that Moiraine will balefire him in the end, due to his having been consumed by Moridin (and presumably turned evil).

unless the loony theories are right and he is Taim he is unlikely to be there.Loony theories aside, we know that Demandred has been involved with the Black Tower, and everything indicates that the plan revolving around the wall (which they started building way back in TPOD) and the dreamspike, and the Shadowspawn army. Brandon said that Demandred is the Shadow's 'main player' for AMOL, and it all seems to revolve around this. But Demandred is likely Roedran, which means he'll probably show up with an army of Murandians (not to say that's the only thing he'll be up to). He gave Talmanes a tracker for some reason...probably because he intends to come at Talmanes from the rear and trap him against the wall. The Murandians don't have to know anything about what's going on inside the city; all they know is that the Band was a threat in their country not too long ago, and Roedran united them against the threat.

Given the proximity of the Black Tower to Caemlyn, the Battle of Caemlyn and the resolution with Taim need not necessarily be two separate events, depending on timing with Merrilor.I'm sure the dreamspike will be extended to include Caemlyn, but I think they are using Caemlyn to draw Rand into a trap.

GonzoTheGreat
08-07-2011, 04:27 PM
The blade is probably Hawkwing's sword, which Rand is currently lugging around.

Southpaw2012
08-07-2011, 04:38 PM
hey Terez, do you think it's being set up that Mat ends up killing Demandred based on the comparisons of both being great generals and Mat having the Band at the place Demandred is more than likely attacking?

Terez
08-07-2011, 04:40 PM
hey Terez, do you think it's being set up that Mat ends up killing Demandred based on the comparisons of both being great generals and Mat having the Band at the place Demandred is more than likely attacking?
It's definitely a possibility. I've always favored Mat killing Demandred just because he can probably pull it off with his medallion, but the more personal the rivalry between them gets, the more likely it seems. They are essentially the generals of the Last Battle, but the deal with Talmanes makes it more personal.

Southpaw2012
08-07-2011, 04:44 PM
yeah I could see Demandred killing Talmanes then Mat getting control of the army and eventually out-maneuvering Demandred to win. I still think Demandred may have a role in Rand's killing. You'd think the thing about him smiling when he killed Lews Therin would come into play sometime in the series

Terez
08-07-2011, 04:46 PM
I personally doubt he'll have the privilege, as bad as he wants it, just because his death is necessary for his victory, which makes me think a Lightfriend will have to kill him. (That, and TEOTW13 + Egwene's Accepted test.)

Southpaw2012
08-07-2011, 04:49 PM
it makes me wonder, what if Demandred runs into Rand after he's been consumed by Moridin? Would Demandred kill Rand knowing Moridin is there or would he hesitate? Idk just random musing

Zombie Sammael
08-07-2011, 05:11 PM
It's getting hard to disagree with you, not because I think you are right, but because I'd have to disagree with all of your other theories to do so!

Agreed. Some have put forth that one of them is Egwene, though...and it wasn't Felix. I've seen other candidates suggested too.

I used to think that a number of the "three women and Rand" prophecies referred to the supergirls rather than the WAGs, but this one as good as names the three people involved (which might be an argument against the linguistic point I made, lol).

In that case, the future teetering on the edge of a blade would have nothing to do with Rand or the women. Both the Foretelling and the mirror dream make it clear that the the fate of the world is dependent on Rand.

Not if the entire prophecy refers to after the Last Battle. "He who is dead yet lives" can easily also refer to that; he lives on after the Last Battle is fought. None of that makes Rand's role prior to TG any less important, or the fate of the world prior to TG any less dependent on him.

They are linked because the world depends on his return. There would be no reason for him to be mentioned in the Foretelling or the mirror dream if he were not important. Especially not both. In the Wise Ones' dream, the other elements - great battle, guardians/servants, land divided by return - are not mentioned at all. Just Rand, the boat, the three women, and the scales swinging one way, and then the other.

Based on the last part of your own reasoning, the Mirror Dreams are therefore of limited use in confirming the veracity of the Nicola Foretelling. Rand quite clearly is important prior to TG but I think everyone would agree he is not so much after.

It might, but 1) it doesn't fit with the Peace of the Dragon, which put an end to battle between the Seanchan and Randland, and 2) it has nothing to do with Rand.

Which also suggests that the Last Battle is not yet won, since the two must be as one for that to happen.

The Peace of the Dragon is heavily foreshadowed by various events, but mainly drawn from Aviendha's Vision (or Chekov's Prophecy). You know my usual caution about that, and I stick by it.

And again, Rand is by no means central to these events, and both the dream and the Foretelling centered on him.

The Foretelling mentioned him briefly in passing and the Dream does not confirm the other parts of it.

I doubt it, since one of the main themes of the series is men and women working together.

It seems obvious to me that the word "balance" refers to weight of numbers, although I suppose if you interpret it literally there would need to more Aes Sedai to weigh the same as the same number of individual Asha'man. :-P

Not easily at all, considering the situation that's being set up (the Peace of the Dragon). And again, it has nothing to do with Rand.

Already responded to this above.

This I doubt, partly because I don't want to believe that Rand is that stupid, and if he does go after, it would likely be in the dream, which Brandon left hanging. As yet unfulfilled is his merge with Moridin, which seems to play no part in your theory - and that is echoed in the Broken Wolf prophecy. He shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers (Moridin), and his destruction (his actual death, after he is consumed) shall cause fear and sorrow in the hearts of men.

We already had a detailed discussion on Broken Wolf, and there is some question on his identity, to put it as mildly as that. At best we're able to narrow that down to a list of candidates. I think that if Rand were to go after Mierin in the dream, that could easily set up the body swap situation, and his existing body might then be killed once an inkling of what has happened is acquired.


Actually, there are a few Mordred parallels:

1. Moridin
2. Mordeth/Fain
3. Demandred
4. Gawyn
5. Moiraine

I'd add Galad, but RJ indicated that that isn't going to happen. I suspect that Moridin and Gawyn both will have a role in Rand's death, but I doubt Demandred will get the chance (despite having been given the privilege), and Moridin's main role will be the consumption bit. The first three are the Shadow's main Mordred parallels, but the first two seem to be the most symbolic. Every time Rand has battled with a blademaster, he's encountered either Ishamael or Fain, and they gave him his two unhealable wounds. But I think that Moiraine will balefire him in the end, due to his having been consumed by Moridin (and presumably turned evil).

Sounds good. I think Moridin is the best Mordred parallel thanks to the link between them, which is the only thing vaguely reminiscent of the link between Mordred and Arthur. Moiraine has more of a Morganna parallel though I suppose she could fulfill both roles. I think Fain's role is something different altogether at this point. Gawyn is unlikely but his recent internal accommodation with Rand could be a big red herring.

Loony theories aside, we know that Demandred has been involved with the Black Tower, and everything indicates that the plan revolving around the wall (which they started building way back in TPOD) and the dreamspike, and the Shadowspawn army. Brandon said that Demandred is the Shadow's 'main player' for AMOL, and it all seems to revolve around this. But Demandred is likely Roedran, which means he'll probably show up with an army of Murandians (not to say that's the only thing he'll be up to). He gave Talmanes a tracker for some reason...probably because he intends to come at Talmanes from the rear and trap him against the wall. The Murandians don't have to know anything about what's going on inside the city; all they know is that the Band was a threat in their country not too long ago, and Roedran united them against the threat.

I'm sure the dreamspike will be extended to include Caemlyn, but I think they are using Caemlyn to draw Rand into a trap.

I would agree that this is very likely, but the trap may be for the main force of the Light rather than for Rand.

As I said I'm struggling a bit this evening to focus my thoughts. Not disagreeing for the sake of it, just there are alternative positions on a lot of this stuff and it's good to discuss it.

Terez
08-07-2011, 05:26 PM
In that case, the future teetering on the edge of a blade would have nothing to do with Rand or the women. Both the Foretelling and the mirror dream make it clear that the the fate of the world is dependent on Rand.
Not if the entire prophecy refers to after the Last Battle. "He who is dead yet lives" can easily also refer to that; he lives on after the Last Battle is fought. None of that makes Rand's role prior to TG any less important, or the fate of the world prior to TG any less dependent on him.
It just makes no reason for Rand to be in those prophecies at all. And it would also mean he didn't accomplish his Peace, which is contradicted by other prophecies (namely the peace of the sword prophecy).

They are linked because the world depends on his return. There would be no reason for him to be mentioned in the Foretelling or the mirror dream if he were not important. Especially not both. In the Wise Ones' dream, the other elements - great battle, guardians/servants, land divided by return - are not mentioned at all. Just Rand, the boat, the three women, and the scales swinging one way, and then the other.
Based on the last part of your own reasoning, the Mirror Dreams are therefore of limited use in confirming the veracity of the Nicola Foretelling. Rand quite clearly is important prior to TG but I think everyone would agree he is not so much after.
We don't need to confirm the veracity of either - one is a Foretelling, the other a true dream, neither of which was given after the Pattern started falling apart. The Foretelling, at least, is absolute, and the Dream was shared by two Wise Ones. And they are clearly linked because of the boat, Rand, and the three women. It's a huge stretch to suggest that Rand has nothing to do with the fate of the world, which hangs in the balance.

The Peace of the Dragon is heavily foreshadowed by various events, but mainly drawn from Aviendha's Vision (or Chekov's Prophecy). You know my usual caution about that, and I stick by it.
I'm not saying her visions will come true at all. Just that it's unlikely the Peace won't happen, based not only on those visions, but on Rand's plans, and on other prophecies, and on the fact that RJ is setting up a compromise with the Empire.

The Foretelling mentioned him briefly in passing and the Dream does not confirm the other parts of it.The Foretelling mentioned everything briefly, but nothing in passing, and Rand was central to the Foretelling. The fact that the dream only confirms 1) Rand on a boat with the three women, and 2) the fate of the world hanging in the balance, speaks strongly to those details being the most important bits, but otherwise means nothing that supports your argument.

It seems obvious to me that the word "balance" refers to weight of numbers, although I suppose if you interpret it literally there would need to more Aes Sedai to weigh the same as the same number of individual Asha'man. :-PNot really, since Egwene was planning on raising a number of Accepted and novices.

We already had a detailed discussion on Broken Wolf, and there is some question on his identity, to put it as mildly as that.Not really. There's just confusion as to his identity - no one else plausibly fits the prophecy. But whether or not you believe that Rand is the broken wolf, there are other prophecies clearly pointing to the same exact thing. Min's viewing of the merge hasn't happened yet, for one (and she says nothing about a swap).

I think that if Rand were to go after Mierin in the dream, that could easily set up the body swap situation, and his existing body might then be killed once an inkling of what has happened is acquired.In that case, why did the Wise Ones see Rand in the boat instead of Moridin? Why are the three women even important?

Sounds good. I think Moridin is the best Mordred parallel thanks to the link between them, which is the only thing vaguely reminiscent of the link between Mordred and Arthur. Moiraine has more of a Morganna parallel though I suppose she could fulfill both roles. I think Fain's role is something different altogether at this point. Gawyn is unlikely but his recent internal accommodation with Rand could be a big red herring.Don't be so quick to judge - there are a number of small details in the books confusing the Mordred issue, and Gawyn has a number of direct parallels. Moiraine as well, though she is also a Morgan le Fay parallel. RJ said that no one character = one Arturian character. They're a mix and match.

Frenzy
08-07-2011, 07:54 PM
Terez, what the hell! Last time i looked Theoryland was run by a committee of the willing, not by individuals with mod authority. Said committee has come down hard on mods unilaterally imposing sanctions on members, especially when said mods were involved in the trolling/flamewar/other assorted assholery. It totally kills your credibility, and are a couple of trolls worth that?

If someone is trolling, text Tamyrlin. I'm sure you have his number. If you don't, I know you have mine, and I'll text Tamyrlin. The end result is the same: deletion of threads and warnings issued. Plus you get to keep your moral high ground.

Terez
08-07-2011, 08:03 PM
Terez, what the hell! Last time i looked Theoryland was run by a committee of the willing, not by individuals with mod authority.
Might want to check again. One of our new policies is that mod disagreements are handled on the mod board, not in the public arena. Other than that, the General board is run by the people who spend time on it.

Frenzy
08-07-2011, 10:19 PM
You didn't arbitrarily delete the post. Progress. So moved...

GonzoTheGreat
08-08-2011, 04:10 AM
TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 14 - Dreams and Nightmares

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond(1). Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives(2). The great battle done, but the world not done with battle(3). The land divided by the return(4), and the guardians balance the servants(5). The future teeters on the edge of a blade(6)."Useful numbering, here, ZS. I'll steal it.

1. Elayne, Aviendha and Nynaeve.

2. E, A & N, plus Mat, who, as the *finn told him, had to "To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!"

3. Whenever. There'll always be a "great battle". Still, this is probably the Last Battle.

4. Accurate assessment of the situation after the Seanchan conquests.

5. Mat will acquire a bunch of Asha'man, in addition to the gaggle of fan-girl AS he already has.

6. Mat's ashandarei did indeed determine whether or not Moiraine could reach Rand, which in turn determines whether or not there is any chance at winning the LB.

Zombie Sammael
08-08-2011, 05:29 AM
It just makes no reason for Rand to be in those prophecies at all. And it would also mean he didn't accomplish his Peace, which is contradicted by other prophecies (namely the peace of the sword prophecy).

I don't know, letting people know the Dragon will survive the Last Battle through prophecy might give them some clues when he seemingly dies prior to that event. Also, the fact that he won't be as important after TG doesn't mean he won't still be important; we know Mat will be, for instance.

We don't need to confirm the veracity of either - one is a Foretelling, the other a true dream, neither of which was given after the Pattern started falling apart. The Foretelling, at least, is absolute, and the Dream was shared by two Wise Ones. And they are clearly linked because of the boat, Rand, and the three women. It's a huge stretch to suggest that Rand has nothing to do with the fate of the world, which hangs in the balance.

"Veracity" was the wrong word to use (I did say I was all over the place last night, well, more so than usual), but since the Mirror Dream doesn't mention the other elements given equal weight in the Foretelling it is of limited use in confirming the interpretation of the Foretelling, especially insofar as confirming that the parts of the Foretelling which aren't obviously about Rand actually do refer to him in some way.


I'm not saying her visions will come true at all. Just that it's unlikely the Peace won't happen, based not only on those visions, but on Rand's plans, and on other prophecies, and on the fact that RJ is setting up a compromise with the Empire.

I would agree, but avoiding the Dragon's Peace in the form we currently know of it would seem to be essential to the salvation of the Aiel, which was the entire point of Avi's vision. There are two ways to avoid it from the start: include the Aiel, or remove the peace in the first place, perhaps in favour of a temporary alliance to fight the Last Battle. The two would thus be at one for the duration of Tarmon Gai'don only.

The Foretelling mentioned everything briefly, but nothing in passing, and Rand was central to the Foretelling. The fact that the dream only confirms 1) Rand on a boat with the three women, and 2) the fate of the world hanging in the balance, speaks strongly to those details being the most important bits, but otherwise means nothing that supports your argument.

I don't see how Rand is central to the Foretelling. It seems more like it mentions numerous disconnected events, one of which might or might not refer to Rand (Gonzo's reasoning is also sound). The fact that the Dream seems to confirm those bits says nothing about their importance, necessarily; one prophecy can confirm another without necessarily suggesting anything about importance. Something has to be pretty important to be prophesied anyway, wouldn't you say?

Not really, since Egwene was planning on raising a number of Accepted and novices.

1000 men are still likely to be physically heavier than 1000 women. Sorry you didn't get the joke.

Not really. There's just confusion as to his identity - no one else plausibly fits the prophecy. But whether or not you believe that Rand is the broken wolf, there are other prophecies clearly pointing to the same exact thing. Min's viewing of the merge hasn't happened yet, for one (and she says nothing about a swap).

The highest I would put it at this stage is that Rand is the least bad fit for the Broken Wolf. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Moridin once travelled on a Sea Folk ship called "Broken Wolf" and it happens to be in Andor at the time of the attack; my point is there's simply too much we don't know about that particularly prophecy. It's a hell of a tease.

As for Min's viewing about the merging, it could still refer to Lews Therin, I'm afraid. Being unsure which lives and which dies could refer to the integration of Rand's mind in which neither died and both lived. It could also refer to Moridin, but "merging" rather suggests what happened on Dragonmount to me, which was however you slice it an important victory for the Light.

In that case, why did the Wise Ones see Rand in the boat instead of Moridin? Why are the three women even important?

A compelling argument, since prophetic dreams (and even other prophecies like viewings and foretellings) are always so literally interpreted in Randland, and always show exactly what is to come to pass without any ambiguity or room for interpretation. :rolleyes:

Don't be so quick to judge - there are a number of small details in the books confusing the Mordred issue, and Gawyn has a number of direct parallels. Moiraine as well, though she is also a Morgan le Fay parallel. RJ said that no one character = one Arturian character. They're a mix and match.

True.

sleepinghour
08-08-2011, 06:05 AM
TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 14 - Dreams and Nightmares

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond(1). Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives(2). The great battle done, but the world not done with battle(3). The land divided by the return(4), and the guardians balance the servants(5). The future teeters on the edge of a blade(6)."

(1) This couldn't be more obvious. Any alternative interpretations should be reserved strictly to Felix. ;)

The first two can only be Elayne and Aviendha, but some people think Min will die and "she who sees beyond" will be Egwene since she does see the future in her dreams.

Zombie Sammael
08-08-2011, 06:08 AM
The first two can only be Elayne and Aviendha, but some people think Min will die and "she who sees beyond" will be Egwene since she does see the future in her dreams.

This particular prophecy doesn't actually specify gender at all; "the lion sword" might be more appropriately though to refer to Gawyn.:eek:

sleepinghour
08-08-2011, 07:04 AM
This particular prophecy doesn't actually specify gender at all; "the lion sword" might be more appropriately though to refer to Gawyn.:eek:
I hadn't thought of that, but you're right—the lion sword could refer to Gawyn as well, though probably only if "she who sees beyond" is Egwene. (Did you have to crush my hope that Gawyn will die early in AMoL? :()

Mik
08-08-2011, 07:27 AM
The first two can only be Elayne and Aviendha, but some people think Min will die and "she who sees beyond" will be Egwene since she does see the future in her dreams.

This particular prophecy doesn't actually specify gender at all; "the lion sword" might be more appropriately though to refer to Gawyn.:eek:

Even better; Since it's a lion (specifically male) sword (phallic / male term usually), it's even more likely it refers to a male.

Is not the Dragon (Reborn) the 'Lion on the Hill'? :eek:

Zombie Sammael
08-08-2011, 07:29 AM
Even better; Since it's a lion (specifically male) sword (phallic / male term usually), it's even more likely it refers to a male.

Is not the Dragon (Reborn) the 'Lion on the Hill'? :eek:

No. What?

Mik
08-08-2011, 07:41 AM
Even better; Since it's a lion (specifically male) sword (phallic / male term usually), it's even more likely it refers to a male.

Is not the Dragon (Reborn) the 'Lion on the Hill'? :eek:

No. What?Tsk. Tsk.

Same book as the prophecy (Loc) in the prologue Niall refers to Rand as 'setting a lion loose in the streets' (something like that).

Same book as the prophecy, Chapter 1 is actually called "Lion on the Hill" and is all about Rand.
I believe it's one of the sword-moves Rand makes while it is literally mentioned in the same breath that 'Rand is one with the sword'.

Even Verin tells Alanna right after she bonded Rand she has tried to saddle a lion (I forgot the chapter but that's also LoC I think)

Doesn't take a scientist.... ;)



EDIT:
I'm just throwing out one more option. That is all.
Gawyn is plausible since he is the First Prince of the Sword of the Lion Throne.
Elayne is also plausible since she sits the Lion Throne, but slightly less so because her 'link' to a Sword isn't as strong as both Rand or Gawyns, me thinks.

Zombie Sammael
08-08-2011, 07:49 AM
Tsk. Tsk.

Same book as the prophecy (Loc) in the prologue Niall refers to Rand as 'setting a lion loose in the streets' (something like that).

Same book as the prophecy, Chapter 1 is actually called "Lion on the Hill" and is all about Rand.
I believe it's one of the sword-moves Rand makes while it is literally mentioned in the same breath that 'Rand is one with the sword'.

Even Verin tells Alanna right after she bonded Rand she has tried to saddle a lion (I forgot the chapter but that's also LoC I think)

Doesn't take a scientist.... ;)

At this point I think Rand is just trying to be a one-man Chinese Zodiac. He's a dragon, a lion, a heron, and a wolf, if you believe Terez.

Compelling argument against Rand as Broken Wolf: "wolf" does not end with "on" as all the other creatures Rand is supposed to be do. Therefore he is not the Broken Wolf.

sleepinghour
08-08-2011, 10:58 AM
"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives."
[...]
"Melaine and Bair dreamed of you on a boat," Aviendha said, the word still awkward after all these months in the wetlands, "with three women whose faces they could not see, and a scale tilting first one way then the other."

Had forgotten about the second part. So we do know that the three on the boat are women. Then the first two are almost certainly Elayne and Aviendha, and the third one most likely either Min or Egwene.

Moiraine could also be called "she who sees beyond" after having seen her possible futures in Rhuidean. Morgan le Fay was one of the queens that carried Arthur away on a ship after he was mortally wounded.

...thus was he led away in a ship wherein were three queens; that one was King Arthur's sister, Queen Morgan le Fay; the other was the Queen of Northgalis; the third was the Queen of the Waste Lands. Also there was Nimue, the chief lady of the lake...

Mik
08-08-2011, 03:08 PM
*snaps finger*
I was so surprised this morning about why I'd never even considered the Lion Sword to be male before, I totally forgot about the wise womens dreams and jumped at the link I saw to Rand because of it.

Thanks for reminding us of this quote.

*feels stoopid*

Tree Brother
08-08-2011, 03:36 PM
The main point that I think is counterintuitive for most people is that the Field of Merrilor, combined with the Peace of the Dragon seen in the visions of Aviendha, makes for a really gigantic red herring intended to detract from the fact that Rand is going to die early in AMOL. I even think it is possible that this was originally planned to happen at the end of TOM, as many of us expected, but that Brandon and Team Jordan decided it was better not to end the book with that particular cliffhanger, since technically RJ never planned to do so. It was risky - killing off the Dragon Reborn, and the Last Battle has just begun. The fandom would have gone crazy over that, and I'm not talking about the net fandom. We would have taken it in stride, of course. I'm talking about the average fan.


When will Aviendha's children be conceived? If they are conceived after his death... Assuming body swap is not going to happen, and that being ripped out of TAR does happen, could this be a possible scenario that could explain why those children could channel so early? Channeling is genetic (with proper soul), and a TAR created body might be... different. Elayne's children did not appear to have this ability.

Terez
08-08-2011, 03:46 PM
When will Aviendha's children be conceived? If they are conceived after his death... Assuming body swap is not going to happen, and that being ripped out of TAR does happen, could this be a possible scenario that could explain why those children could channel so early? Channeling is genetic (with proper soul), and a TAR created body might be... different. Elayne's children did not appear to have this ability.
I considered that at one point, especially before I believed that Rand would be resurrected, but I think it's a weak explanation. I went into what I think are more likely explanations here (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_982drtg3gjk&revision=_latest).

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 02:27 AM
When will Aviendha's children be conceived?

Post-Last Battle, when Aviendha decides to have a romantic evening with both Rand al'Thor and Matrim Cauthon... :D

In the heat of the moment, Aviendha's ovary splits into four... two are fertilized by Rand's sperm, two are fertilized by Mat's sperm.


Through the wonders of plural family, three ways have become family friendly. :eek:

ScoundrelTheToy
08-15-2011, 05:44 PM
The most damning pieces to your thoughts, Terez, I feel is the viewing of the severed Hand by Min, the dream Egwene has in COT of the FOM meeting (although obviously you disagree that this is what this dream is indicating. Consider that without TGS and TOM, nobody would have even ever fathomed that this dream could be speaking of the FOM meeting.) and the mention that Matrim is the 'center of all', which I take to mean the thread that ties the 'ALLS' together - Egwene, Rand and Tuon obviously.

The dream of Egwene's in COT I won't discuss since I've already detailed it enough. The severed hand though, seems clear enough. I mean, the Band is split and severed means cut off, done with, terminated. It is a great leap in my mind to think they will be re-united like they ever were previously. Besides, Demandrad destroying them gives great impetus for Mat and his leading the Light's armies against Demandrad, as he will do; it would make the most sense for it to mostly be consisting of Seanchan forces too. Let most of the Randlander's fight trollocs in the north and let the damane and ash'aman fight Demandrads more convential army. Also for Demandrad to have any decent sized role in the last book, he's going to have to start playing his pieces at the start, which in reality already started and we saw at the end of TOM of course with the crazy red-masked dudes or whatever they were. His throne is the Black Tower, it always has been; this is where he will direct his attacks from once Caemlyn is secure and the perimeter of the dreamspike is extended.

It seems pretty simple to me, the shadow starts attacking all the while everyone of the Light's forces will be at Merrilor. The meeting is the only sensible place I can see where the Aes Sedai will have their pegs torn free, as is quite proper and more than called for.

I just can't ever see Moiraine balefiring Rand, which would be a good reason for it to happen due to sheer shock factors, but I just can't feel that; a member of team Light killing Rand? And Moiraine at that? Naw lol. You would also have to explain what the severed hand viewing of Min's means and have that mesh with Mat going from Ghenjei --> Caemlyn instead of Ghenjei --> Merrilor. If Mat goes to Caemlyn from Ghenjei, the armies would put up much more of a fight. The takeover by Demandrad needs to be relatively easy for story purposes with Talmanes and the Band making a heroic stand against them or some such. Also the dream of Egwene's in COT, which I'm convinced is important and details the FOM meeting would have to be explained indicating something else.

The Seanchan has to ally with the Light. Tuon has to ally with channelers and Egwene. Egeanian offers Egwene nothing in these regards, only Tuon can do this and only Mat can talk to her. Therefore, the Seanchan woman coming out of the clouds is obviously Tuon. In no sense is Egeanian coming down out of clouds in approaching Egwene, for Egwene's status is in the clouds in comparison. Only Tuon is in the clouds in comparison to Egwene (or Rand of course). That is my theory on Thirteenth Depository, not Linda's; seems like you thought it was hers. I think Linda told me that she's going to write one once AMOL draws nearer.

Terez
08-15-2011, 06:14 PM
The most damning pieces to your thoughts, Terez, I feel is the viewing of the severed Hand by Min, the dream Egwene has in COT of the FOM meeting (although obviously you disagree that this is what this dream is indicating. Consider that without TGS and TOM, nobody would have even ever fathomed that this dream could be speaking of the FOM meeting.) and the mention that Matrim is the 'center of all', which I take to mean the thread that ties the 'ALLS' together - Egwene, Rand and Tuon obviously.
None of that is damning to my theory at all. If you think it is, then you need to explain how.

The severed hand though, seems clear enough. I mean, the Band is split and severed means cut off, done with, terminated.
No, it means severed.

It is a great leap in my mind to think they will be re-united like they ever were previously.
Most of us believe the viewing was fulfilled when Elayne made the deal with the Band. Some think 'severed' simply means they are separated from their leader, but either way, the half that Elayne has with her will no doubt be important to her in some way.

Besides, Demandrad destroying them gives great impetus for Mat and his leading the Light's armies against Demandrad, as he will do; it would make the most sense for it to mostly be consisting of Seanchan forces too.
That will likely happen, hence the stuff I wrote about on the Demandred page, but it has little to do with the Seanchan truce.

His throne is the Black Tower, it always has been; this is where he will direct his attacks from once Caemlyn is secure and the perimeter of the dreamspike is extended.
The Black Tower hasn't been his 'throne' since Moridin returned. That's been made clear.

The Seanchan has to ally with the Light.
Yes, we know.

That is my theory on Thirteenth Depository, not Linda's; seems like you thought it was hers. I think Linda told me that she's going to write one once AMOL draws nearer.
I have been saying that Tuon is the woman in the dream for a very long time. And Linda has already made a post saying she's not going to be doing any more theorizing at all. It's linked in the OP.

JOS
08-16-2011, 04:08 PM
Linda has already made a post saying she's not going to be doing any more theorizing at all. It's linked in the OP.

She may not theorize directly, but she provides excellent background data and plausible historical and mythical source material for RJ's world and character building. She finishes by topping it off with comments that hint and suggest at future events. This often leads her readers to extrapolate, thus generating theories that they think she came up with.

It is a clever way to not theorize.

Terez
08-16-2011, 04:23 PM
I wasn't criticizing her. Just saying, she's not likely to be publishing any more theories based on her comments in that post I linked.

Kaptein Trefot
08-16-2011, 04:33 PM
What about the prophecy that says that Rand or the dragon reborn will "bind the nine moons to serve him" or whatever it was Moraine said in The Dragon Reborn

Hi Btw :)

Uno
08-16-2011, 05:01 PM
Hi Btw :)

Welcome. Norwegian?

Terez
08-16-2011, 05:08 PM
What about the prophecy that says that Rand or the dragon reborn will "bind the nine moons to serve him" or whatever it was Moraine said in The Dragon Reborn
As I think I have said before, I believe that both prophecies will be 'fulfilled', whether or not they are legitimate prophecies. This one I think most likely refers to Tuon being bound by the Oath Rod concerning the freeing of the damane, since she is not likely to try freeing them before the Last Battle. But the agreement must be reached before it is over, or (according to the Aelfinn) Rand can't win. Some people think that doesn't quite cut it for 'serving' him, but I think it would, since Rand needs the truce to win, and this is the one point he won't concede. She might also swear to keep the Peace, but I think it more likely in this scenario (very different form the Aviendha scenario) that she will be made Empress of all Randland, in which case the Peace is likely to be very different.

Rand al'Fain
08-16-2011, 10:57 PM
As I think I have said before, I believe that both prophecies will be 'fulfilled', whether or not they are legitimate prophecies. This one I think most likely refers to Tuon being bound by the Oath Rod concerning the freeing of the damane, since she is not likely to try freeing them before the Last Battle. But the agreement must be reached before it is over, or (according to the Aelfinn) Rand can't win. Some people think that doesn't quite cut it for 'serving' him, but I think it would, since Rand needs the truce to win, and this is the one point he won't concede. She might also swear to keep the Peace, but I think it more likely in this scenario (very different form the Aviendha scenario) that she will be made Empress of all Randland, in which case the Peace is likely to be very different.
Eggy and Elayne, who both have been consolidating power, will have fits at THAT meeting. lol

I just don't feel that the Seanchan prophecies will be fulfilled. Rand may be the Dragon Reborn, but he can also channel. The Seanchan look down on the men that can channel worse than the women (not completely without reason), and they don't know that Saiden has been cleansed. So until Tuon is kicked off her high horse about channelers and her aggressive campaigns against the lands not under her rule, there is NO chance that she will work alongside Rand & Friends, if for no other reason than that 3 of the major rulers outside of her domain can all channel and are all connected to eachother. That is the one thing she has remained adament about through her POVs and chapters that have her in them.

Terez
08-16-2011, 11:47 PM
Yes, that's why I said I think it likely she will concede that point. And why the future seen by Aviendha seems so strange...