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FelixPax
08-08-2011, 03:23 PM
Is it known roughly how many years old Valan Luca is? Isn't Luca about Nynaeve al'Meara age roughly?

Terez
08-08-2011, 03:26 PM
Since when do you need us for details about Valan Luca? I find it difficult to believe you haven't read everything ever written about him multiple times. :p

FelixPax
08-08-2011, 06:51 PM
Since when do you need us for details about Valan Luca? I find it difficult to believe you haven't read everything ever written about him multiple times. :p

Amusing isn't it?
Even HCFF's can ask questions. :D


I need an rough age range for Luca, to help pin down some loose ties, for a future Theory. Or evidence to reject it. Of all people, Weiramon at Theoryland very indirectly help me put a few pieces of the puzzle together.



The biggest timeline problem is Luc flees 971 NE, however the Dragon is born in late 978 NE. That's a seven year gap. Second biggest problem is Valan Luca seems to be roughly Nynaeve al'Meara's age, yet that's not the chronological age of the Dragon. Luca's unknown real age is extremely bothersome. Third problem, is how does being born in an Ogier Stedding effect how a human ages? Ditto the problem of how severed male channelers appear. Does it matter if males never had channeled before or not, for their appearance?



Questions: Who's Valan Luca's Father, aka sperm donator? Who's Valan Luca's Mother?


The Tuatha'an maiden Ila, I've believed for some time is Valan Luca's birth mother. I believe he was raised by a large group of Tuatha'an women, not only Ila. Valan grew up in a plural family, with multiple father and mother figures. Where was Valan most likely born at? The Ogier Stedding on the island of Tar Valon. The trumpets blowing Moiraine hears (NS: the novel), are likely Tuatha'an musicians cheering the birth of Valan Luca.


A question which has been bugging me for years, is who is Valan Luca's father, or sperm donator to Ila?


I now suspect that Luc Mantear is the sperm donator Father of Valan Luca. I'm shocked I didn't think of this possibility earlier, actually. It's a vaguely Oedipus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus) like working hypothesis--not a full blown theory yet.


Luc was a young man who needed a way out of Andor safely to the Blight. A Tuatha'an caravan would be a relatively secret way to travel northwards to the Blight.
Ila was an old woman already, by the time young Luc fled Andor: 971 NE. For her to give birth in old age, must have been truly shocking.
Tuatha'an women, like Aiel Maidens can and do take male lovers, without marrying men.
I assume Gitara Moroso told Luc Mantear to keep this mouth shut about his background, as Gitara told his younger sister Tigraine Trakand. Assumption is Ila never knew fully who Luc Mantear was, his noble background. Ila only knew his first name for sure, Luc.
Ila named her new born child after the boy's mysterious Father. Luc was altered slightly to Luca.
Ila named her new born child's first name, after the island he was born at. (Tar) Valon was altered slightly to Valan.
Ila altered her male child's to reflect her own name by changed or adding vowels to "a". Luca ends in an "a"; Valon changed to Valan.

After growing up to his mid-to-late twenties Valan Luca, appears physically similar to Luc Mantear: tall, broad-shoulders.

Differences: Luc has dark blue eyes, golden-red hair; Valan Luca has black hair


Comparisons: Luc, Luca

Luc/Isam can dreamwalker to a degree, similarly Luc Mantear's unknown son can dreamwalker too: Valan Luca. Yes, that's a theory.


In terms of symbols, both Luc/Isam, Valan Luca each use a "bow". The bow is tied to Indian & Nordic myths of gods, which RJ is known to have drawn from. Every ta'veren character has used a bow at one point or another, in the WoT series: Rand, Mat, Perrin, Valan.


Luc Mantear sign is an Acorn, meanwhile Valan Luca has searched for Tree Songs for years and years.

Lord Luc was a Hunter of the Horn as an alias, meanwhile his unknown son Valan Luca attended the festivals in Illian leading up to the Hunters of the Horn being send off to find the Horn.

Faile thought (correctly) Lord Luc was a boasting liar; while Matrim Cauthon has thought Valan Luca is a proud fool and liar too.

Does the Acorn not fall far from the Tree? Or are Father & Son completely diffent individuals because Nature versus Nuture differences between the Shadow versus Tuatha'an?



Recognition or not: Valan Luca meets the al'Seens and Lewins?


I do wonder what members of Perrin's Two River's group will think of Valan Luca, if and when they finally meet him? Will they think that Valan Luca reminds them of Lord Luc physically or not? In particular members of the al'Seens and Lewins families. Their family members found at the White Tower (novice), Black Tower (soldier), Two Rivers and with Perrin's military.



Comparisons, Experiences, Feelings: Father like Son?


Luc "spreads dissension" among Two Rivers folk, will Valan Luca spread dissension among Seanchan ranks soon enough? Ideas can be dangerous.

Luc frowns at Gaul (Aiel), meanwhile Valan Luca has a complicated pass history with both the Aiel Clans and Tuatha'an Bands.

Luc dislikes the Whitecloaks in Two Rivers hiding Padan Fain; meanwhile Valan Luca is fearful of being taken prisoner, tortured & branded by Whitecloaks in Amadicia at one point in WoT.

Luc kills wolfs, while possibly wolf packs knowing seek to protect Valan Luca later on? In particular, thinking of the Wolves Wind, Dapple.



In terms of prophecies, could whispers be correct?


Others said it was that he would find the Dragon Reborn there, or that the Last Battle depended on him going.

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 16 "Tellings of the Wheel" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; Dyelin speaking

Luc fathers the Dragon? Luc will find the Dragon in the Blight, during the Last Battle?


Conclusion


At this point in time, I'd say that a claim Luc is the sperm donator father of Valan Luca is a Work Hypothesis. Why? Because it has unsolved timeline problems for one. More work need to be done, before it's strong enough to become a full blown Theory.


A major problem with this working hypothesis, is the timeline of Luc Mantear exiting Andor in 971 NE, and the birth of the Dragon in late 978 NE. Pregnancy to birth normally is 9 month process. Second problem, how does an Ogier Stedding effect the birth & development of human children? Do humans live longer life, if they live within an Ogier Stedding--a Parallel World? Third problem, Valan Luca appears to be roughly Nynaeve al'Meara's chronological age, yet the Dragon is much younger in chronological age. Fourth a minor problem, why did Luc Mantear send Trollocs to attack Ila's Tuatha'an band in Two Rivers? Does Luc Mantear remember Ila or not? Was Luc Mantear ever cast out of the Tuatha'an, like Valan Luca? Fifth problem, how does severing a male channeler of Saidin effect his physical appearance? Yes, Valan seems to have been severed from saidin, before he ever channeled saidin (parallels for Red Ajah are obvious). The majority of Tuatha'an males, females do not desire to channel the saidar or saidin (notable exceptions include Liandrin (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/l/liandrin.html), Aisling Noon (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/a/aisling.html)). Future channelers can feel the saidar or saidin on Earth, however not at all inside an Ogier Stedding. Valan Luca is implied to have visited multiple Steddings: Tar Valon, Tsofu (Erith comments), Shangtai (TEotW,Ch42).

It's notable Valan Luca has a positive opinion of Aes Sedai, nor he is fearful of Red Ajah. Teslyn.



Alternatives


One other possible counter-hypothesis to answer the question of who Valan Luca's Father is:


Immaculate conception. Luca has no worldly father. Ila thought and believed she was pregnant with a male child. Thought became reality. Thought was reality. This can occur while one is in the Dream World or within an Ogier Stedding. In both cases, Dreams and Flesh are one. The alternate case of Olver's very odd existence, hints at this very possibility.

In both working hypotheses, Ila's relationship to Luca remains the same in terms of the Wheel:

Tales of Materese the Healer, Mother of the Wondrous Ind"

The Eye of the World, Chapter 4 "Gleeman" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; Thom speaking

Materese is the reborn soul of Ila, while Valan Luca is the reborn soul of the Wondrous Ind.

JOS
08-09-2011, 12:48 AM
Amusing isn't it?
Even HCFF's can ask questions. :D


I need an rough age range for Luca, to help pin down some loose ties, for a future Theory. Or evidence to reject it. Of all people, Weiramon at Theoryland very indirectly help me put a few pieces of the puzzle together.



The biggest timeline problem is Luc flees 971 NE, however the Dragon is born in late 978 NE. That's a seven year gap. Second biggest problem is Valan Luca seems to be roughly Nynaeve al'Meara's age, yet that's not the chronological age of the Dragon. Luca's unknown real age is extremely bothersome. Third problem, is how does being born in an Ogier Stedding effect how a human ages? Ditto the problem of how severed male channelers appear. Does it matter if males never had channeled before or not, for their appearance?



Questions: Who's Valan Luca's Father, aka sperm donator? Who's Valan Luca's Mother?


The Tuatha'an maiden Ila, I've believed for some time is Valan Luca's birth mother. I believe he was raised by a large group of Tuatha'an women, not only Ila. Valan grew up in a plural family, with multiple father and mother figures. Where was Valan most likely born at? The Ogier Stedding on the island of Tar Valon. The trumpets blowing Moiraine hears (NS: the novel), are likely Tuatha'an musicians cheering the birth of Valan Luca.


A question which has been bugging me for years, is who is Valan Luca's father, or sperm donator to Ila?


I now suspect that Luc Mantear is the sperm donator Father of Valan Luca. I'm shocked I didn't think of this possibility earlier, actually. It's a vaguely Oedipus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus) like working hypothesis--not a full blown theory yet.


Luc was a young man who needed a way out of Andor safely to the Blight. A Tuatha'an caravan would be a relatively secret way to travel northwards to the Blight.
Ila was an old woman already, by the time young Luc fled Andor: 971 NE. For her to give birth in old age, must have been truly shocking.
Tuatha'an women, like Aiel Maidens can and do take male lovers, without marrying men.
I assume Gitara Moroso told Luc Mantear to keep this mouth shut about his background, as Gitara told his younger sister Tigraine Trakand. Assumption is Ila never knew fully who Luc Mantear was, his noble background. Ila only knew his first name for sure, Luc.
Ila named her new born child after the boy's mysterious Father. Luc was altered slightly to Luca.
Ila named her new born child's first name, after the island he was born at. (Tar) Valon was altered slightly to Valan.
Ila altered her male child's to reflect her own name by changed or adding vowels to "a". Luca ends in an "a"; Valon changed to Valan.

After growing up to his mid-to-late twenties Valan Luca, appears physically similar to Luc Mantear: tall, broad-shoulders.

Differences: Luc has dark blue eyes, golden-red hair; Valan Luca has black hair


Comparisons: Luc, Luca

Luc/Isam can dreamwalker to a degree, similarly Luc Mantear's unknown son can dreamwalker too: Valan Luca. Yes, that's a theory.


In terms of symbols, both Luc/Isam, Valan Luca each use a "bow". The bow is tied to Indian & Nordic myths of gods, which RJ is known to have drawn from. Every ta'veren character has used a bow at one point or another, in the WoT series: Rand, Mat, Perrin, Valan.


Luc Mantear sign is an Acorn, meanwhile Valan Luca has searched for Tree Songs for years and years.

Lord Luc was a Hunter of the Horn as an alias, meanwhile his unknown son Valan Luca attended the festivals in Illian leading up to the Hunters of the Horn being send off to find the Horn.

Faile thought (correctly) Lord Luc was a boasting liar; while Matrim Cauthon has thought Valan Luca is a proud fool and liar too.

Does the Acorn not fall far from the Tree? Or are Father & Son completely diffent individuals because Nature versus Nuture differences between the Shadow versus Tuatha'an?



Recognition or not: Valan Luca meets the al'Seens and Lewins?


I do wonder what members of Perrin's Two River's group will think of Valan Luca, if and when they finally meet him? Will they think that Valan Luca reminds them of Lord Luc physically or not? In particular members of the al'Seens and Lewins families. Their family members found at the White Tower (novice), Black Tower (soldier), Two Rivers and with Perrin's military.



Comparisons, Experiences, Feelings: Father like Son?


Luc "spreads dissension" among Two Rivers folk, will Valan Luca spread dissension among Seanchan ranks soon enough? Ideas can be dangerous.

Luc frowns at Gaul (Aiel), meanwhile Valan Luca has a complicated pass history with both the Aiel Clans and Tuatha'an Bands.

Luc dislikes the Whitecloaks in Two Rivers hiding Padan Fain; meanwhile Valan Luca is fearful of being taken prisoner, tortured & branded by Whitecloaks in Amadicia at one point in WoT.

Luc kills wolfs, while possibly wolf packs knowing seek to protect Valan Luca later on? In particular, thinking of the Wolves Wind, Dapple.



In terms of prophecies, could whispers be correct?




Luc fathers the Dragon? Luc will find the Dragon in the Blight, during the Last Battle?


Conclusion


At this point in time, I'd say that a claim Luc is the sperm donator father of Valan Luca is a Work Hypothesis. Why? Because it has unsolved timeline problems for one. More work need to be done, before it's strong enough to become a full blown Theory.


A major problem with this working hypothesis, is the timeline of Luc Mantear exiting Andor in 971 NE, and the birth of the Dragon in late 978 NE. Pregnancy to birth normally is 9 month process. Second problem, how does an Ogier Stedding effect the birth & development of human children? Do humans live longer life, if they live within an Ogier Stedding--a Parallel World? Third problem, Valan Luca appears to be roughly Nynaeve al'Meara's chronological age, yet the Dragon is much younger in chronological age. Fourth a minor problem, why did Luc Mantear send Trollocs to attack Ila's Tuatha'an band in Two Rivers? Does Luc Mantear remember Ila or not? Was Luc Mantear ever cast out of the Tuatha'an, like Valan Luca? Fifth problem, how does severing a male channeler of Saidin effect his physical appearance? Yes, Valan seems to have been severed from saidin, before he ever channeled saidin (parallels for Red Ajah are obvious). The majority of Tuatha'an males, females do not desire to channel the saidar or saidin (notable exceptions include Liandrin (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/l/liandrin.html), Aisling Noon (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/a/aisling.html)). Future channelers can feel the saidar or saidin on Earth, however not at all inside an Ogier Stedding. Valan Luca is implied to have visited multiple Steddings: Tar Valon, Tsofu (Erith comments), Shangtai (TEotW,Ch42).

It's notable Valan Luca has a positive opinion of Aes Sedai, nor he is fearful of Red Ajah. Teslyn.



Alternatives


One other possible counter-hypothesis to answer the question of who Valan Luca's Father is:


Immaculate conception. Luca has no worldly father. Ila thought and believed she was pregnant with a male child. Thought became reality. Thought was reality. This can occur while one is in the Dream World or within an Ogier Stedding. In both cases, Dreams and Flesh are one. The alternate case of Olver's very odd existence, hints at this very possibility.

In both working hypotheses, Ila's relationship to Luca remains the same in terms of the Wheel:



Materese is the reborn soul of Ila, while Valan Luca is the reborn soul of the Wondrous Ind.

There are no words. I am in awe. :eek:

Well, not really. Bunch of blarney. Everyone knows that Valan Luca is Wil al'Sheen's brother. The evidence is clear:

tFoH, A Small Room in Sienda, In reference to Valan Luca:
A tall, dark-haired man strode out of the camp, of all things in this heat wearing' a red silk cloak that he flourished as he made an elegant bow. He was good looking, with a well-turned leg, and very much aware of both things.

tLoC, Prologue:
Wil had an eye for the women, and they for him—he had very well-turned calves—


Further Evidence:

1) Valan and Wil are both sons of Varan Marcasiev, High Seat of House Marcasiev in the city of Canluum in Kandor. Varan was well known for his loyalty and reliability, but most notably, he was know for his good-looks, vanity, and pride. At Blood Snow, Varan sensed that the Last Battle was nearing, and in attempt to preserve his bloodline, he sent his two sons home with Tam al'Thor (what's a couple more?) to the Two Rivers. The arrogant, but well meaning father is loosely based upon Martin Sheen, which is why RJ had Tam al'Thor place the children in the al'Seen Family.

2) The elder son, Vanan, faintly remembered parting from his father, and knew that he was destined for great things. That is why he changed his name (from Vanan to Valan, to lend some respect to his past, and from al'Seen to Luca because it was a cool name and he was 14) and ran away with a band of performers. He wears the red cloak becuase of vague memories of his childhood, where many red banners flew over his true father's fortress in the borderlands. Valan Luca and his travelling show are loosely based on Charlie Sheen and his "Torpedo of Truth" tour.

3) In an ingenious twist, the second son Wil al'Seen, who did not change his name, is based on Emilio Estevez. Wil and Emilio are both known for their unique laugh and stable personalities.

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 03:12 AM
There are no words. I am in awe. :eek:

Luc Mantear unlike Varan Marcasiev of Kandor is of the Royal Line of Andor.


Elaida had the Foretelling sometimes, the ability to foresee future events. If it came seldom and faintly, that was still more than any Aes Sedai had had since Gitara Moroso, dead now twenty years. The very first thing Elaida had ever Foretold, while still an Accepted—and had known enough even then to keep to herself—was that the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 1 "Seeds of Shadow" -- Elaida point of view; her thoughts

If Valan Luca's biological father was Luc Mantear, this would parallel Elaida foretelling that "the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle."


Who is in the Royal line of Andor? Or marries into it?

Rand fries and frays shadowspawn, mother Tigraine
Elayne weds two ta'veren: Rand, Mat
Gawyn weds an Amyrlin Seat, Egwene
Galad weds Hawkwing's Blood, Berelain
Valan is the Dragon, and Slayer's nemesis.

Morgase will fight the idea publicly, that Rand is the Dragon. Former Queen of Andor.
Mat Cauthon will marry into the royal line of Andor, Elayne Trakand.

Even Ila, a Tuatha'an old woman become a distant relative to Rand al'Thor, through her son Valan Luca's likely father Luc. Luc, who is a biological uncle to Rand, via Tigraine.


Perrin on the other hand is not part of the Royal line of Andor. Uh-oh.

Weiramon
08-09-2011, 03:43 AM
I need an rough age range for Luca, to help pin down some loose ties, for a future Theory. Or evidence to reject it. Of all people, Weiramon at Theoryland very indirectly help me put a few pieces of the puzzle together.



A question which has been bugging me for years, is who is Valan Luca's father, or sperm donator to Ila?


I now suspect that Luc Mantear is the sperm donator Father of Valan Luca. I'm shocked I didn't think of this possibility earlier, actually.


Burn me, will unjust accusations of the unforgivable never cease?

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 04:58 AM
Burn me, will unjust accusations of the unforgivable never cease?

Touchy, touchy. Ever since Weir**** was sent away from one high strung Mistress of Mayene... Mashiara ;)


At times, I wonder if Lord Weiramon was born illegitimate bastard... an orphaned child adopted?

GonzoTheGreat
08-09-2011, 05:51 AM
At times, I wonder if Lord Weiramon was born illegitimate bastard... an orphaned child adopted?Born of an unwedded woman, on Dragonmount perhaps?

WinespringBrother
08-09-2011, 09:24 AM
Amusing isn't it?
Even HCFF's can ask questions. :D


The Tuatha'an maiden Ila, I've believed for some time is Valan Luca's birth mother. I believe he was raised by a large group of Tuatha'an women, not only Ila. Valan grew up in a plural family, with multiple father and mother figures. Where was Valan most likely born at? The Ogier Stedding on the island of Tar Valon. The trumpets blowing Moiraine hears (NS: the novel), are likely Tuatha'an musicians cheering the birth of Valan Luca.

Actually, there is an Ogier grove on Tar Valon, but no Stedding (which would be very inconvenient for the home base for Aes Sedai). The grove is a popular destination for Gateways:

Knife of Dreams CHAPTER: 2 - The Dark One's Touch
Tervail did not recognize it, and darted through, sword in hand, tugging Hammer behind him, the warhorse's hooves kicking up puffs of snow on the other side. She followed a little more slowly and let the weave dissipate almost reluctantly. It truly was wondrous. She found Tervail looking at what rose above the treetops in the near distance, a thick pale shaft rearing against the sky. The White Tower. His face was very still, and the bond seemed filled with stillness, too. "I think me you are planning something dangerous, Beonin." He still held his blade bared, though lowered now.

Knife of Dreams CHAPTER: EPILOGUE - Remember the Old Saying
The Andoran sun was warm after Tar Valon. Pevara removed her cloak and began tying it behind her saddle as the gateway winked shut, hiding the view of the Ogier grove in Tar Valon. None of them had wanted anyone to see them leaving. They would return to the grove for the same reason, unless matters went very badly. In which case, they might never return.

JOS
08-09-2011, 11:39 AM
Luc Mantear unlike Varan Marcasiev of Kandor is of the Royal Line of Andor

Which is why I posted. It clearly shows that Valan Luca cannot be The Dragon, because he is not of the royal blood of Andor, and was not born on Dragon Mount, and was always intended to be a sideshow. I reiterate, as this clearly must be:



Everyone knows that Valan Luca is Wil al'Sheen's brother. The evidence is clear:

Support for Said Statement:

1) Valan and Wil are both sons of Varan Marcasiev, High Seat of House Marcasiev in the city of Canluum in Kandor. Varan was well known for his loyalty and reliability, but most notably, he was know for his good-looks, vanity, and pride. At Blood Snow, Varan sensed that the Last Battle was nearing, and in attempt to preserve his bloodline, he sent his two sons home with Tam al'Thor (what's a couple more?) to the Two Rivers. The arrogant, but well meaning father is loosely based upon Martin Sheen, which is why RJ had Tam al'Thor place the children in the al'Seen Family.

2) The elder son, Vanan, faintly remembered parting from his father, and knew that he was destined for great things. That is why he changed his name (from Vanan to Valan, to lend some respect to his past, and from al'Seen to Luca because it was a cool name and he was 14) and ran away with a band of performers. He wears the red cloak becuase of vague memories of his childhood, where many red banners flew over his true father's fortress in the borderlands. Valan Luca and his travelling show are loosely based on Charlie Sheen and his "Torpedo of Truth" tour.

3) In an ingenious twist, the second son Wil al'Seen, who did not change his name, is based on Emilio Estevez. Wil and Emilio are both known for their unique laugh and stable personalities.

This is clear and undisputable.

GonzoTheGreat
08-09-2011, 11:54 AM
At this point, I would say that as far as I know, it is not possible to say whether Valan Luca is 20 or 60 years old. Thus, it is totally unwarranted to speculate on who his parents would be, unless one takes this age range into account.

Aulis Vaara
08-09-2011, 01:41 PM
Materese is the reborn soul of Ila, while Valan Luca is the reborn soul of the Wondrous Ind.

"I doubt you can understand the magnitude of the stupidity in your statement."

It's so obvious I'm not even going to bother pointing it out.

Juan
08-09-2011, 01:49 PM
Lol nice try felix. I enjoyed it, though. Keep 'em coming.

JOS
08-09-2011, 02:56 PM
At this point, I would say that as far as I know, it is not possible to say whether Valan Luca is 20 or 60 years old. Thus, it is totally unwarranted to speculate on who his parents would be, unless one takes this age range into account.

I agree with Gonzo, despite my earlier screwball comments... What do we really know about Luca? Cape, calves, dark hair, likes the ladies. Period (IMHO). There is nothing else. Sure he seems to be a good guy, and does seem to be in the right place at the right time to hide people, but there really isn't much to this character. He is a "flat" or "static" character. There are no deep mysteries behind this guy, he is who he is, and if RJ/Brandon hasn't delved into his backstory by now, I don't think they will. There is no developmental arc for this guy, no build-up to a grand epiphany, secret parentage, channeling ability, or secret ter'angreal in his wagon.

Mr. Luca is a plot device; fun, well written, but simple and reliable.

Regardless, in the realm of remote possibility, there is some chance I am wrong about this :eek:, and as always, I look forward to what Felix comes up with next.

GonzoTheGreat
08-09-2011, 05:45 PM
Mr. Luca is a plot device; fun, well written, but simple and reliable.Not quite as simple and reliable as all that. When Elayne and company are hiding in his circus, he tries to marry Nynaeve. When Mat goes into hiding, Luca is suddenly a married man. Why?

Terez
08-09-2011, 05:48 PM
He is reliable in that he was determined to get himself a steady supply of milk, though he did try with Nynaeve to avoid buying the cow.

GonzoTheGreat
08-09-2011, 05:52 PM
He is reliable in that he was determined to get himself a steady supply of milk, though he did try with Nynaeve to avoid buying the cow.I think that with Nynaeve, part of the attraction was that she was a rich cow. :D

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 05:52 PM
"I doubt you can understand the magnitude of the stupidity in your statement."

Materese is the reborn soul of Ila, while Valan Luca is the reborn soul of the Wondrous Ind.

It's so obvious I'm not even going to bother pointing it out.

Chuckles, guess someone else never saw nor heard Brandon Sanderson's response when supposed a question if Ila is Materese reborn? Ditto, is Valan Luca the Wondrous Ind reborn?


I understand the broad skepticism of Luc Mantear being the biological father of Valan Luca. Do recall, I referred to it as a working hypothesis. Quite a few additional assumptions were necessary to constructed it, from facts already known. Knock out those assumptions, and the working hypothesis is no more.


Still it's would be indeed humorous, if Valan Luca is the son of Luc Mantear. Or if Valan Luca picks up a Sword of all things, and stabs to death his biological father Luc Mantear or Shaidar Haran in the back. Yes, I know of multiple scenes suggesting Valan Luca will pick up and hold a 'Bloody Sword'. Other metaphor driven scenes hint at the possibility that Valan Luca or a man in a red coat will die doing so too. (RJ's likes his "red coated" characters.)


However, the question of who is Valan Luca's biological birth mother is a totally different question. The answer to that specific question, much much stronger: Ila. A Strong Theory.

The Unreasoner
08-09-2011, 05:59 PM
I think the point was more along the lines of Wondrous Ind=Nation of India. But if Luca is the Dragon (and that's a big if), the Dragon might be, in a sense, born of an entire nation.

Perhaps another way to look at the issue would be to ask 'How does India fill the roles of the Dragon in our own world?'

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 06:03 PM
He is reliable in that he was determined to get himself a steady supply of milk, though he did try with Nynaeve to avoid buying the cow.

You have it all backwards. Nana unknowningly offered first, to Luca's utter shocked.


Who's to say if Valan Luca believed Nana very forwardly asked to become his lover? A sexual relationship, from the get go?

“And you, my dear Nana? What surprising talent do you have? Tumbling, perhaps? Swallowing swords?”

“I dole out the money,” she told him, slapping the scrip. “Unless you want to offer me your wagon?” She gave him a smile that wiped his clean away and backed him up two steps besides.

The shouting had roused people from the wagons, and everyone gathered around while Luca introduced the troupe’s new performers. He was rather vague about Nynaeve, merely calling what she did startling; she needed to have a talk with him.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 17 "Heading West" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view; with Valan Luca, Thom, Juilin, Elayne and the Showfolk

Money or Love...

Is Valan Luca afraid of sexually forward women? Perhaps, Luca initial physical response is similar to Matrim Cauthon's ironically. Afraid of long-term relationships or marriage. Afraid of collars.

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 06:29 PM
The Creator isn't around because he doesn't interfere.


Did Robert Jordan ever claim The Creator possessed a male gender?


If so, that would seemingly violate quite a few general rules, methods related to Dreaming, Traveling, Skimming.


This particular Pattern found on Earth has a female impression to it. Not a male impression one. Hard to say, what the Great Pattern's gender impression is if any through.

Marie Curie 7
08-09-2011, 10:35 PM
Did Robert Jordan ever claim The Creator possessed a male gender?


If so, that would seemingly violate quite a few general rules, methods related to Dreaming, Traveling, Skimming.


This particular Pattern found on Earth has a female impression to it. Not a male impression one. Hard to say, what the Great Pattern's gender impression is if any through.

Okay Felix, here's an assignment for you.

My first suggestion is for you to go to the Interview Database, find all the quotes in which RJ talked about the Creator, and if a gendered pronoun was used, tell us what that pronoun was.

Next, you might want to do the same for the Wheel of Time books, and also the BWB.

If any of those sources use pronouns to refer to the Creator that are different from what I used, please let us know.

Finally, you might want to think about possible reasons that RJ may have decided to use a particular gendered pronoun ('he', in this case) to refer to both the Creator and the Dark One.

FelixPax
08-10-2011, 03:48 AM
Okay Felix, here's an assignment for you.

Quite busy at the moment, hence I ask questions.


My first suggestion is for you to go to the Interview Database, find all the quotes in which RJ talked about the Creator, and if a gendered pronoun was used, tell us what that pronoun was.

The interview Database is set-up like old school Yahoo, before Google came out... :rolleyes: Unfortunate fact.

I've likely watched every known Brandon Sanderson interview video related to WoT uploaded. I've read most of the interviews Terez refers to, and a quite a few she doesn't listed.

Bela ain't the creator. Shrug.


Next, you might want to do the same for the Wheel of Time books, and also the BWB.

BWB is unreliable, which even Robert Jordan himself claimed repeatedly. BWB is incorrect about city sizes, Lanfear, and so on. It's an inferior source, for any thing remotely important or in dispute.


Sometimes it's good to step back and seek other individuals interpretations of this series. It's all well and fine I have one huge digital book of RJ's works. But I wanted to see and learn if anyone noticed something I did not observe or think about.

If not, why continue reading and writing at Theoryland forum in the first place? If one desires mass attention, Dragonmount has a higher readership total, through a far less clued in one. If one desires to create content, a blog is a better option.



Finally, you might want to think about possible reasons that RJ may have decided to use a particular gendered pronoun ('he', in this case) to refer to both the Creator and the Dark One.

In nutshell, your claiming RJ's followed the common english language practice of using "he" was God or the Creator. King James style.

I didn't ask about how a pronoun was used. I asked a deeper question about the very world and it's creation. What gender created this specific Pattern found on Earth? Earth is what Lan called the planet, which the Westlands, Seanchan, Shara et al is found on.


If you real care to know, one clue this particular Pattern has a female influence present, has to do with the differences found between Males, Females for Traveling, Skimming between Worlds.

Rand once tried to use a female method of Traveling in a foreign Mirror World of the Flesh via a Portal Stone... it didn't work (TGH). Moghedien's later comments to Egwene's are another clue.


The very idea of a Bore and drilling through a shield... has sexual overtones and parallels as well. Quite kinky.

Terez
08-10-2011, 05:12 AM
If you have interviews I don't have, then share them. But don't bitch about my interview database just because you can't find quotes.

AbbeyRoad
08-10-2011, 02:49 PM
After growing up to his mid-to-late twenties Valan Luca, appears physically similar to Luc Mantear: tall, broad-shoulders.
Indeed, this is a rare description we've almost never had of any male character in the book series...

Immaculate conception. Luca has no worldly father. Ila thought and believed she was pregnant with a male child. Thought became reality. Thought was reality. This can occur while one is in the Dream World or within an Ogier Stedding. In both cases, Dreams and Flesh are one. The alternate case of Olver's very odd existence, hints at this very possibility.
So Valan Luca is Jesus? Interesting, I thought Rand was Jesus...

Terez
08-10-2011, 03:04 PM
That's what you get for thinking!

Crispin's Crispian
08-10-2011, 03:34 PM
Rand once tried to use a female method of Traveling in a foreign Mirror World of the Flesh via a Portal Stone... it didn't work (TGH). Moghedien's later comments to Egwene's are another clue.


The very idea of a Bore and drilling through a shield... has sexual overtones and parallels as well. Quite kinky.[/INDENT]

Moreover, the Sheinarans call Earth "the Mother." Sheinar is on the Borderlands, and so was Malkier. Isam is from Malkier, and he is now merged with Luc.

I think this case is closed.

Terez
08-10-2011, 03:55 PM
Felix: see the rules as to why your posts are being redirected here. For one, all meandering posts in the question thread get moved to their own thread. That's in the rules. Also in the rules is a warning to you that if you start taking over the boards with your crazy posts, then I might be forced to quarantine you. So far I haven't done so - I've only moved your posts in the question thread to here. I've done the same to many others.

PS - I thought I had given the quarantine warning in the rules thread, but that must have been elsewhere. Consider this an official warning on that front. We don't mind you being crazy, but don't be pervasive.

FelixPax
08-10-2011, 04:07 PM
So Valan Luca is Jesus? Interesting, I thought Rand was Jesus...

In Wheel of Time terms, Rand al'Thor is the 'Plowman', Valan Luca is the 'Dragon'.

In Robert Jordan's terms, the 'Mule' to be killed off, in the final book to join a literature tradition of Southern Writers, is Valan Luca.


Valan Luca is not the Creator through. Herid is correct, I believe, about the Dragon's role.


Others characters in Wheel of Time terms are:


Birgitte "The Archer"
Perrin "The Blacksmith"
Fortuona "The Snake"
Gawyn "The Stag"
Moiraine "The Traveler"



Others reader's can muse about who is:


The Ram
The Three Geese
The Five Sisters
The Cup
"The Shield, that some called Hawkwing's Shield" (LoC, Chapter 22)

FelixPax
08-10-2011, 04:12 PM
Felix: see the rules as to why your posts are being redirected here. For one, all meandering posts in the question thread get moved to their own thread. That's in the rules.

Meandering in a Sticky Forum thread called "Ask Us Anything about WoT. There Are No Dumb Questions. No, Really."?

Not every post I write is about Valan Luca, far from it. The one where I posed a question about the Creator's gender (in this Pattern), is not related to Valan Luca. Yet that post was attached to this thread. :(

Davian93
08-10-2011, 04:13 PM
I think the question becomes: Does the Creator wear a cape...and if so, how does this relate to his status as the Creator?

Terez
08-10-2011, 04:13 PM
Not every post I write is about Valan Luca, far from it.
That's why I added the 'etc.' bit. ;)

Zombie Sammael
08-10-2011, 04:17 PM
That's why I added the 'etc.' bit. ;)

ORIGINAL POST:

I'm now convinced you and the other HOHs are doing to Felix... that thing I'm not allowed to mention in this thread.

EDITED POST:

If I'm going to make stupid, sarcastic comments, I could at least try to do it in the right thread.

EXPLANATION: Terez originally posted about it in another thread, not this one.

Terez
08-10-2011, 04:26 PM
It's okay. I viewed your original post. (I don't usually do that - in fact, I think that's the first time I ever have.) Considering the nature of Felix, it's really the only appropriate response, don't you think? ;)

Zombie Sammael
08-10-2011, 04:31 PM
It's okay. I viewed your original post. (I don't usually do that - in fact, I think that's the first time I ever have.) Considering the nature of Felix, it's really the only appropriate response, don't you think? ;)

In an attempt to make it better, I've now made even more of a mess of it. :) It's... a response. I used to like deliberately misinterpreting what he says into something even whackier.

Terez
08-10-2011, 04:35 PM
Which is still trolling. But it's trolling the troll, so it's different. Typically I'd prefer that Felix remained quarantined precisely because so many feel the need to do just that. It's funny, but if it becomes pervasive, then it's a problem.

PS - I asked for no more discussion of it in the other thread because it was someone else's thread.