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Juan
08-09-2011, 12:17 PM
Just thought of something. Might seem a bit crazy, but I think it makes sense and is feasible.

There's two main sides in this epic conflict (ignoring Fain).

Let's look at the shadow. There's the Dark One. There's the DO's champion, Moridin, and then there's a weaker extension of the DO a.k.a. Shaidar Haran.

Let's look at the Light. There's the Creator, his champion, Rand, and....... Wait. Where's the light's shaidar haran equivalent.

Then there's the one person with such a unique ability with visions about the future. Not channeling, not an old Talent like wolfbrothers...

Shaidar Haran cannot do all. RJ made it clear.

So just because Min can't do all, doesn't mean she can't be the Shaidar Haran equivalent for the Light.

Enigma
08-09-2011, 12:24 PM
As has been stated elsewhere the Creator does not get his hands dirty so he is not going to appoint an opposite to the SH. At best there is the Dragon as the champion of the light.

That is not to say that the pattern, that seems to be programed to react to events with the goal of maintaining reality, could not bring forth someone to balance the books so to speak. The only thing that it can't balance is the DO which is outside the pattern and Fain which I believe RJ said has sidestepped his fate and is operating below the pattern's radar (thought I could be wrong about that part).

Zombie Sammael
08-09-2011, 12:33 PM
Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?
RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.

That's the quote. Note that it directly conflicts with this quote:

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?
RJ: No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless. [And with any luck, that should quiet all of you 'Straight Line of Time' pests! - Raina]8

I do believe the second quote is widely misinterpreted, though; it doesn't necessarily mean what it appears to on the face of it, as evidenced by the first quote.

Enigma
08-09-2011, 12:40 PM
Up until now the goal of the light seems to have been to keep the Wheel of Time turning and the DO locked away. That's what's happened before and what the pattern wants to happen now.

I recall an interview RJ gave once here he said that in our world a long time ago the cycle of time was what people belived in and that it was some group (whose name I can't recall) that introduced the concept of linear time and the possibility of change.

Perhaps the patter and the prophecies etc all want the DO sealed away and the next age to start off just as normal but with Fain perhaps Rand could some how break the cycle so that things do not repeat themselve over and over.

If he could do that, from what we have seen of Moridin's pov recently he may actually help. He wants to destroy the wheel because he can't face having to fight the same war over and over and over again with victory simply ensuring another battle to come. If there was some way to introduce linear time and stop the endless cycle he might actually go for it if he thought it was a real possibility.

Juan
08-09-2011, 12:51 PM
I believe he said the Greeks.

Zombie Sammael
08-09-2011, 01:07 PM
It's really not very difficult at all to find quotes from RJ to back things up:

Question Part 1: In the Wheel of Time there is focus on events occurring again and again throughout history. Is it just history which is circular, or is it time itself which is in a loop?
Jordan: If you think of history being in a loop, then time must be in a loop. The Greeks were the first, as far as we know, to think of time being linear which allows for change. Almost every other culture prior to them had believed in circular time. If time is a wheel there is no possibility of change. Whatever I change now, whatever injustices I correct, the wheel will inevitably return, the inequities will return, there is no possibility for change, therefore there is not impetus to change. So time and history are in a loop in this world, a large enough loop . . . that it is really quite immense.
Question Part 2: So, the sun will never go nova, will never die?
Jordan: In this universe, no.

In case you missed it, here's the link to Terez's interview database:

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372

(Terez, I'll have none of your sarcasm ;))

padfoot89
08-09-2011, 01:21 PM
If he could do that, from what we have seen of Moridin's pov recently he may actually help. He wants to destroy the wheel because he can't face having to fight the same war over and over and over again with victory simply ensuring another battle to come. If there was some way to introduce linear time and stop the endless cycle he might actually go for it if he thought it was a real possibility.

I would love Moridin turning and helping the Light. He's been my favorite character since the beginning. Since it seems that Elan went to the dark side because he logically deduced that the DO would win, I can see being turned back with logical arguments.
I don't think he'll become one of those good guys but I could see him helping before going off on his own somewhere.
Sort of like how Harry and Malfoy ended up at the end of the series.

Terez
08-09-2011, 01:27 PM
In case you missed it, here's the link to Terez's interview database:

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372

(Terez, I'll have none of your sarcasm ;))
I had to think for a minute to come up with what sort of sarcasm you might be expecting. Well, only for a few seconds...but you know.

GonzoTheGreat
08-09-2011, 04:42 PM
That's the quote. Note that it directly conflicts with this quote:



I do believe the second quote is widely misinterpreted, though; it doesn't necessarily mean what it appears to on the face of it, as evidenced by the first quote.There are small differences between all the Turnings. In that sense, every Turn is unique. But on the other hand, that also means that none of them is really significantly different.

So the two quotes can be easily reconciled with each other if every Turn has a Fain-sized anomaly, more or less (the actual size of the anomaly can vary, of course).

Zombie Sammael
08-09-2011, 04:55 PM
Thinking about it, RJ uses the wording "unique to this particular Age", which might just mean this one of seven, rather than this particular turning of the Wheel. I do think that this could be the final battle without there necessarily having to be anything unique about the age, though. There could be other threats to the pattern or the survival of humanity than the DO.

The Unreasoner
08-09-2011, 05:26 PM
might just mean this one of seven
This. People get so hung up on that one quote, and it drives me insane. Also, what need does the Light have for a good Shaidar Haran? If you look at RJ's quotes on the metaphysics of his world, all of humanity is (technically) against the Dark One. Even the Forsaken (sans Nae'blis). And the Wheel is an agent of good (in the sense that it strives to preserve the Pattern and can make deciscions). The Wheel is incapable of producing 'dark' ta'veren.

And as far as the Wheel is concerned, I don't see why Perrin can't fill the role of counter to SH.

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 05:50 PM
And as far as the Wheel is concerned, I don't see why Perrin can't fill the role of counter to SH.

No chance, of Perrin succeeding.
Mordeth foretold Perrin's death at Aridhol. (tEotW)


Far better chance that Loial, Petra Anhill or Valan Luca being a counter to Shaidar Haran. Ample foreshadowing for it, in fact.



Valan Luca is Light's Champion, Valan Luca is the Dragon.
Valan Luca shall be chosen by Nynaeve. (tFoH).

Drat cooking, let the men cook!

sleepinghour
08-09-2011, 06:33 PM
And as far as the Wheel is concerned, I don't see why Perrin can't fill the role of counter to SH.
I can see Perrin taking down Shaidar Haran with the Power-wrought hammer.

Also, I feel compelled to point out that this is the 666th thread in this forum, which seems only fitting considering the subject matter (though it would have been funnier had it been an Egwene thread).

The Unreasoner
08-09-2011, 06:53 PM
though it would have been funnier had it been an Egwene thread
Hahaha. "Why I love Egwene, the Unholy Thread"

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 07:08 PM
I can see Perrin taking down Shaidar Haran with the Power-wrought hammer.

I can see Perrin's Power-wrought Hammer, being split in half.


See foreshadowing descriptions in New Spring: The Novel (Moiraine pov) involving Noon and Blacksmith's hammer split.

Perrin's awesome Hammer is no match for Shaidar Haran's skills.

Juan
08-09-2011, 08:51 PM
@Felix
But Min is. She can twirl knives. And hide them. And pop them back out quickly. Shaidar Haran would never see it coming... :P

FelixPax
08-09-2011, 09:38 PM
@Felix
But Min is. She can twirl knives. And hide them. And pop them back out quickly. Shaidar Haran would never see it coming... :P

Do you think Rand al'Thor will lose this second hand in AMoL book?

I do.


Your point is interesting, but Semirhage survived Min's knives repeatedly. Shaidar Haran seems to be tougher than Semirhage ever was.

Juan
08-09-2011, 10:18 PM
That's crazy talk. Rand is losing his left leg.

And Min can see the future. She'll face Shaidar Haran, get a bunch of vision on what Haran will do, and be able to counter everything perfectly. Ninja skills, baby.

AbbeyRoad
08-09-2011, 11:18 PM
Since it seems that Elan went to the dark side because he logically deduced that the DO would win, I can see being turned back with logical arguments.
And in his universe, I have to say, he has a point. But yes, I always assumed Elan's character was set up to be 'defeated' by logic.

This. People get so hung up on that one quote, and it drives me insane.
Another alternative interpretation to support linear theory is that of course there's nothing special about this turning of the wheel, yet. But who's to say the wheel will survive the Last Battle? In which case, there will be nothing special about this turning of the wheel because the wheel won't be turning...

Lupusdeusest
08-10-2011, 12:45 AM
And Min can see the future. She'll face Shaidar Haran, get a bunch of vision on what Haran will do, and be able to counter everything perfectly. Ninja skills, baby.
She has atium???

JOS
08-10-2011, 11:21 AM
She has atium???

That would be a twist! I think HCFF around the world would commit jumonji giri!