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Callandor
08-11-2011, 12:11 AM
Cause they get so fun (http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2009/11/ending-the-wheel-of-time-the-geekdad-interview-with-brandon-sanderson/).

November 2nd, 2009, Wired Magazine.

GD: Anyone who knows the books at all knows that Rand alíThor hears the voice of Lews Therin in his head-sometimes cackling like a madman, other times more helpfully. After wading through all of Robert Jordanís notes, and listening to those dictated comments, do you have a new sympathy for Rand?

BS: Robert Jordan dropped a bomb at the end of Knife of Dreams, with what Semirhage was saying about or to Rand, talking about his level of stability. I remember as a reader, going through as a kid-I think Robert Jordan blindsided me with Lews Therin, because Iíd been told that ďRand will go mad, Rand will go mad,Ē but I didnít accept that voice as Rand going mad. I accepted that as another person, inside of Randís head, and not a delusion or anything like that. Across the course of the books, Robert Jordan brought together this thing that heíd promised: ďNo, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, heís seeing part of his past life, but heís going insane. Itís the immense pressure thatís doing this.Ē In looking through the notes, and seeing what Rand has to go through, itís hard not to sympathize with the poor guy.

Robert Jordan once said in an interview, when someone tried to get him to boil down the series to its core-he first said, you canít boil down this series. I wrote it as long as I did because thatís how long I needed to tell the story, and so boiling it down doesnít work. But he finally did say this: At itís essence, this series is about what itís like to be told that you need to save the world, and that itís probably going to cost your life. Even all of the other characters, you could say that that is a theme for them, too. Egwene has had to give up the life that sheíd assumed that she was going to live, and to adopt this other life in the name of the greater good. And thatís happening to everybody. Kings and queens are being cast down, and people who thought that their lives were just going to be normal and stable, and thatís all they really wanted, are being forced to take upon themselves these mantles of responsibility. And Rand is at the very heart of that. Rand is the center, the example for all of them of what theyíre having to go through, and itís the worst for him.

Anyway, I'll just be wandering on along.

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

Terez
08-11-2011, 12:17 AM
Thanks to Marie for digging this one up. I bet Brandon has been scared all this time we'd find it. :D In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Isa saw it before and didn't tell anyone. I tweeted about it, and Brandon hasn't commented beyond saying this (http://twitter.com/#%21/BrandSanderson/status/101499251930038274). At which point Luckers assured him that he hadn't actually confirmed anything. Ha! So we argued back and forth a bit including Brandon in our tweets. But I imagine that the pool of diehard real'ers has to get much smaller at this point. Even Luckers is not really a real'er; he's just a semantic champion. But Brandon says clearly that RJ's notes indicated that the voice was a delusion caused by madness.

Isabel
08-11-2011, 01:45 AM
BS: Robert Jordan dropped a bomb at the end of Knife of Dreams, with what Semirhage was saying about or to Rand, talking about his level of stability. I remember as a reader, going through as a kid-I think Robert Jordan blindsided me with Lews Therin, because I’d been told that “Rand will go mad, Rand will go mad,” but I didn’t accept that voice as Rand going mad. I accepted that as another person, inside of Rand’s head, and not a delusion or anything like that. Across the course of the books, Robert Jordan brought together this thing that he’d promised: “No, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, he’s seeing part of his past life, but he’s going insane. It’s the immense pressure that’s doing this.” In looking through the notes, and seeing what Rand has to go through, it’s hard not to sympathize with the poor guy.


Let's dissect this quote:Brandon is refering to a quote by Semirhage:

He’s insane. Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin could know. Clearly he is hearing Lews Therin’s voice.
It makes no difference that this voice is real, however.Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be abrupt.
(KoD, a plain wooden box, Semirhage, p 592)

Semirhage said that Rand is insane, but still hearing a real voice. So no that doens't mean that Brandon confirmed the construct theory here.

Terez
08-11-2011, 01:55 AM
Yes, actually, it does. One thing I've tried to stress to you real'ers before is that the word 'real' does not mean what you think it does in that context. Brandon is the proof of that - he didn't have the history with the fandom and the debate and all the connotations that were ascribed to the word 'real', and as a fan, he read the Semirhage passage in a completely different way than you did. He realized that Semirhage was saying that Rand heard the voice because he was insane. Specifically, he realized that the voice was a delusion. And this was in the notes. So you can't try to reconstruct what Brandon said based on your faulty assumptions. His meaning is clear. If he meant what you thought, then the passage would make no sense at all, because Semirhage would have been confirming his previous assumptions.

AbbeyRoad
08-11-2011, 01:57 AM
So no that doens't mean that Brandon confirmed the construct theory here
Confirmed? Perhaps not.

Strongly, strongly implied? I'll let you answer that one with your own rational judgement...

Terez
08-11-2011, 02:32 AM
Brandon sent a response to Luckers, not sure through which medium (I was expecting a hedge post, so this comes as no surprise):

I stand by everything I said in those interviews; I did not make any miss-steps. However, there is one big misinterpretation. Terez says that I was asked by Team Jordan to be more secretive. That's not the case. There was one time when Harriet asked me to be more secretive, but that was in regards to spoilers about TofM when I was working on it, and she felt (rightly) that I was hinting about too many things that would come in the book.

I have not settled, and do not intend to settle, this debate except in regard to the things placed specifically in the books. The Geekdad interview response is primarily talking about my own reactions as a reader the first time I read specific scenes, long before I saw what was in the notes. At that point, as a fan, my view of the books shifted.

Those views may have shifted again while looking at the notes. I have not said, and will continue not to say, what was in them on this point. There are clues in the text. That is always the way it has been, and I think that is sufficient for this conversation. However, I can explicitly say there was no "Team Jordan order of silence" on this particular point. In fact, there have been few (or none) of those except in regards to spoiling surprises for the books not yet in print. I prefer to keep it that way, which is why I generally ask interviewers to run my interviews past Team Jordan for clarification, and so that they know what I'm saying and can steer me if I do happen to stray into areas best left quiet.
And this is my response to Luckers on Dragonmount:

It was expected, actually. His wording is even further confirmation, and follows on a point I just made to Isa at Theoryland. (He won't lie, so things like 'Those views may have shifted again while looking at the notes' are huge red flashing arrows.) Clearly, his views shifted when reading the Semirhage passage, which confirms that he didn't read into the word 'real' in the same way that the real'ers did at all...and he wouldn't have spoken about it in that way if the notes had contradicted his feelings.
Brandon can't dance around this one, no matter how hard he tries. :D

Isabel
08-11-2011, 02:39 AM
Yes, actually, it does. One thing I've tried to stress to you real'ers before is that the word 'real' does not mean what you think it does in that context. Brandon is the proof of that - he didn't have the history with the fandom and the debate and all the connotations that were ascribed to the word 'real', and as a fan, he read the Semirhage passage in a completely different way than you did. He realized that Semirhage was saying that Rand heard the voice because he was insane. Specifically, he realized that the voice was a delusion. And this was in the notes. So you can't try to reconstruct what Brandon said based on your faulty assumptions. His meaning is clear. If he meant what you thought, then the passage would make no sense at all, because Semirhage would have been confirming his previous assumptions.

Nope, the voice can be real and it can still mean Rand is insane.

Brandon hasn't confirmed any of the theories, so you can't claim victory, however you want it.

Terez
08-11-2011, 02:39 AM
Ah, but I can, and I do. The delusional few (or two) don't change the facts and the logic.

Luckers
08-11-2011, 02:45 AM
I asked Brandon about this, and here was his reply.

James,

Feel free to post this response from me.

"I stand by everything I said in those interviews; I did not make any miss-steps. However, there is one big misinterpretation. Terez says that I was asked by Team Jordan to be more secretive. That's not the case. There was one time when Harriet asked me to be more secretive, but that was in regards to spoilers about TofM when I was working on it, and she felt (rightly) that I was hinting about too many things that would come in the book.

I have not settled, and do not intend to settle, this debate except in regard to the things placed specifically in the books. The Geekdad interview response is primarily talking about my own reactions as a reader the first time I read specific scenes, long before I saw what was in the notes. At that point, as a fan, my view of the books shifted.

Those views may have shifted again while looking at the notes. I have not said, and will continue not to say, what was in them on this point. There are clues in the text. That is always the way it has been, and I think that is sufficient for this conversation. However, I can explicitly say there was no "Team Jordan order of silence" on this particular point. In fact, there have been few (or none) of those except in regards to spoiling surprises for the books not yet in print. I prefer to keep it that way, which is why I generally ask interviewers to run my interviews past Team Jordan for clarification, and so that they know what I'm saying and can steer me if I do happen to stray into areas best left quiet."

Best,

Brandon

I'm fine with the fact that Brandon does not reguard his comments to have settled this debate, since nor do I.

Nor do I reguard it to have particularily shaded the argument. Brandon thought the manifestation of Lews Therin was completely unrelated to madness when he was a fan, the notes changed that but he will not say how. Since my theory (the Real Madness Theory), actually requires that the voice be the result of the taint and the basis of Rand's mental instability, I'm good with that.

You Constructionists don't own madness or delusion, you know. It's presence doesn't lend weight to your argument--Semirhage was quite clear. That the manifestationd of a past life voice is real means nothing. The descent to terminal insanity occurs just the same. :)



Oh, and Terez, it was via email.

Terez
08-11-2011, 02:48 AM
I'm fine with the fact that Brandon does not reguard his comments to have settled this debate, since nor do I.
LOL. What did you expect him to say? "Oh, my bad...yeah, I accidentally confirmed construct theory."

Nor do I reguard it to have particularily shaded the argument. Brandon thought the manifestation of Lews Therin was completely unrelated to madness when he was a fan, the notes changed that but he will not say how. Since my theory (the Real Madness Theory), actually requires that the voice be the result of the taint and the basis of Rand's mental instability, I'm good with that.
Again, he also changed his opinion on whether or not the voice was a delusion. Obviously, Semirhage convinced him that it was...and obviously, the notes confirmed that impression or he wouldn't have spoken about it in the interview in the way that he did.

Luckers
08-11-2011, 02:56 AM
Yes... obviously...

*rolls eyes*

Southpaw2012
08-11-2011, 04:04 AM
I don't care what Brandon or anyone ever says, I'm still sticking by my opinion I had when first reading through the books. Rand, knowing he was the Dragon Reborn, began going mad and heard voices based on the madness. At the same time though, he was remembering memories of Lews Therin. So that combined with his madness created the imaginary voice and which is then further confirmed at the ending of TGS saying that they had never been two people because they weren't... Just Rand the whole time.

Zombie Sammael
08-11-2011, 05:26 AM
Southpaw, that is exactly my reading of it. You can even, on a re-read, determine the point at which he started repressing the memories and subconsciously creating the LTT personality (it was during TSR and TFOH). Rand starts having AOL memories, he doesn't like them, he represses them, and then LTT appears; later, he experiences an epiphany at Dragonmount and accepts the memories and personality, becoming one. That's all there is to it.

Daekyras
08-11-2011, 09:57 AM
it kinda does seem to confirm the construct theory.

In fact, denying it may be as bad as denying who killed asmodean at this point!

One quick question, since this is hardly likely to play a major part of aMoL why wouldn't brandon just confirm it either way? It just seems needless to keep this going...

Zombie Sammael
08-11-2011, 10:04 AM
it kinda does seem to confirm the construct theory.

In fact, denying it may be as bad as denying who killed asmodean at this point!

One quick question, since this is hardly likely to play a major part of aMoL why wouldn't brandon just confirm it either way? It just seems needless to keep this going...

Probably because it's rather clearly and explicitly stated in the books. He's RAFO'd questions the answers to which can be found on a careful reading before.

The Unreasoner
08-11-2011, 10:11 AM
I never knew that this was even a real issue. I mean, I knew RJ would RAFO it, and I've heard it is not something to expect an answer on, but I never really thought anyone doubted that Rand was nuts.
(Hey Terez, something we agree on!)

Actually, some of Rand's odder moments remind me of what it's like right before a seizure.

SauceyBlueConfetti
08-11-2011, 10:12 AM
since this is hardly likely to play a major part of aMoL why wouldn't brandon just confirm it either way? It just seems needless to keep this going...

I always wondered if RJ never clearly stated it in the notes. Definitively anyway.

EDIT: and let me say, I do agree it is a construct and I think most of the notes and last couple of books have confirmed that. What I am saying is a five or six word sentence in the notes. Lews Therin's voice is a construct.

EDIT 2: Hi C. Miss ya round here :)

Mik
08-11-2011, 10:50 AM
The delusional few (or two) don't change the facts and the logic.This is actually the only part I wholeheartly agree with, Terez.

"You never escape the traps you spin yourself"

That goes for both you and Lews Therin.
One has to admire the irony.

Weiramon
08-11-2011, 11:24 AM
In fact, denying it may be as bad as denying who killed asmodean at this point!



Burn my soul, you may as well claim that Verin Sedai abandoned the Lord Dragon in Tear to bring the Borderlander armies to heel.

Terez
08-11-2011, 12:35 PM
This is actually the only part I wholeheartly agree with, Terez.

"You never escape the traps you spin yourself"

That goes for both you and Lews Therin.
One has to admire the irony.
In case anyone is wondering, Mik is in denial because he has a theory that Lews Therin Mindtrapped himself, and he's sticking to it. :rolleyes:

Grig
08-11-2011, 12:36 PM
One quick question, since this is hardly likely to play a major part of aMoL why wouldn't brandon just confirm it either way? It just seems needless to keep this going...

Didn't Jordan say that he wasn't going to confirm or deny whether LTT voice was "real" or not (for whatever meaning of real we're going to use), and BS is just continuing that position due to it being what the original author wanted?

Zombie Sammael
08-11-2011, 12:37 PM
In case anyone is wondering, Mik is in denial because he has a theory that Lews Therin Mindtrapped himself, and he's sticking to it. :rolleyes:

Huh? How would he even... no, wait, I'm not going to go there.

Terez
08-11-2011, 12:45 PM
ZS, why do you have a really huge sig? It's annoying.

Zombie Sammael
08-11-2011, 12:52 PM
Is that a little better?

Terez
08-11-2011, 01:09 PM
A little, yes.

The Unreasoner
08-11-2011, 01:39 PM
@zombie
Why not:
"I honestly don't care, as long as it's not murandy."
-The Unreasoner, giving his thoughts on Demandred's whereabouts.

That way you could put gonzo back in there. Maybe quote Terez too. "Why do you have a really huge sig?"
-The Quotemistress, giving her thoughts on my signature.

Zombie Sammael
08-11-2011, 01:48 PM
@zombie
Why not:
"I honestly don't care, as long as it's not murandy."
-The Unreasoner, giving his thoughts on Demandred's whereabouts.

That way you could put gonzo back in there. Maybe quote Terez too. "Why do you have a really huge sig?"
-The Quotemistress, giving her thoughts on my signature.

Because then I would be trolling Terez twice. In my signature. Uh-oh. :eek:

The Unreasoner
08-11-2011, 01:58 PM
Get her permission, lol.

Crispin's Crispian
08-11-2011, 02:29 PM
I never knew that this was even a real issue. I mean, I knew RJ would RAFO it, and I've heard it is not something to expect an answer on, but I never really thought anyone doubted that Rand was nuts.


I don't know a single "Real'er" that thought Rand wasn't crazy, or at least well on his way. I'm surprised that Brandon did. There are so many other clues about Rand's madness...

Nor do I reguad it to have particularly shaded the argument. Brandon thought the manifestation of Lews Therin was completely unrelated to madness when he was a fan, the notes changed that but he will not say how

It definitely seems like he's saying that the Semirhage quote opened up the possibility that the Voice was actually a symptom of Rand's madness. I'm not sure how you can argue that. So that was the first shift: "Oh crap, he might not be hearing the real Lews Therin after all!"

I don't see it as a confirmation of Construct Theory at all, just that it opened his eyes to that as a possibility whereas he previously thought only that Lews Therin was the real guy.

Then he says something "may have" shifted again with his reading of the notes. Terez of course thinks this OBVIOUSLY means he completely converted to Construct Theory. ~shrug~


Again, he also changed his opinion on whether or not the voice was a delusion.
That's a bit stronger than what he actually said, but of course you'd assume that.

Obviously, Semirhage convinced him that it was...and obviously, the notes confirmed that impression or he wouldn't have spoken about it in the interview in the way that he did. hahaha...

Terez
08-11-2011, 02:57 PM
I don't know a single "Real'er" that thought Rand wasn't crazy, or at least well on his way.
That's because you didn't pay attention.

I'm surprised that Brandon did. There are so many other clues about Rand's madness...I'm not surprised because RJ wrote it really well. He wrote it so that we would see it through Rand's perspective almost entirely. We want what Rand wants, and Rand wants to stay sane long enough to make it to the Last Battle, and he constantly tries to convince himself that he's still sane. RJ draws a contrast between Rand and Lews Therin - the latter is the gibbering madman in Rand's head, and Rand is still functional, so obviously he's the sane one. It's not his fault he has a crazy guy inside his head, and obviously that's going to make Rand act a little strange from time to time. And by the time Lews Therin starts to seem sane in contrast to Rand, you're already on Rand's team. You want to believe what he believes, and you've already got your reasons for believing it well-established. (Obviously, I'm not talking about you, but about the average reader. Many recognize he's starting to lose it a little bit, but most don't know how badly, because of the 'Lews Therin is real' explanation.) When you see Rand talking to himself in Egwene's POV, you think Egwene just doesn't understand. Rand has a crazy guy in his head talking to him. It's real - it's Lews Therin! He's not going insane.

It definitely seems like he's saying that the Semirhage quote opened up the possibility that the Voice was actually a symptom of Rand's madness. I'm not sure how you can argue that. So that was the first shift: "Oh crap, he might not be hearing the real Lews Therin after all!"

I don't see it as a confirmation of Construct Theory at all, just that it opened his eyes to that as a possibility whereas he previously thought only that Lews Therin was the real guy.I see it as confirmation because he's telling us he realized that this was the madness, and the pressure that was doing this to him. He was so excited that he went on about Rand and Lews Therin when that's not what the question was really asking about at all. (I sympathize with him - I was like that as a new convert to construct theory.) Further confirmation is in Brandon's response to Luckers:

I have not settled, and do not intend to settle, this debate except in regard to the things placed specifically in the books....Those views may have shifted again while looking at the notes. I have not said, and will continue not to say, what was in them on this point. There are clues in the text.
And we all know what was in the text, which is why everyone hopped over to construct theory when they read TGS - they were not two men, and never had been. And therefore, Rand will never hear the voice again. Along with 'may have', I don't see how you can read it any other way.

hahaha...
Is that an argument? Have you been taking lessons from Mr. Unreasoner?

Zombie Sammael
08-11-2011, 03:03 PM
I would also like to add that, personally, I never liked the Lews Therin in Rand's head because he seemed very different from the Lews Therin who appeared in the "Dragonmount" prologue. Even when insane, that Lews Therin seemed to be written very differently. The Lews Therin in Rand's head always seemed to conveniently be thinking about things Rand could understand and process, and even insane-prologue-LTT seemed more together than it.

Terez
08-11-2011, 03:27 PM
I would also like to add that, personally, I never liked the Lews Therin in Rand's head because he seemed very different from the Lews Therin who appeared in the "Dragonmount" prologue. Even when insane, that Lews Therin seemed to be written very differently. The Lews Therin in Rand's head always seemed to conveniently be thinking about things Rand could understand and process, and even insane-prologue-LTT seemed more together than it.
That's because the Lews Therin that Rand constructed was based on his perception of the man before the memories. It wasn't the real Lews Therin at all - it was a vague impression of the Kinslayer, a face and a name to give to Rand's inconvenient thoughts and emotions. In a way, it helped to keep him sane. For a little while.

Zombie Sammael
08-11-2011, 03:31 PM
That's because the Lews Therin that Rand constructed was based on his perception of the man before the memories. It wasn't the real Lews Therin at all - it was a vague impression of the Kinslayer, a face and a name to give to Rand's inconvenient thoughts and emotions. In a way, it helped to keep him sane. For a little while.

I actually wouldn't got that far. I think the LTT in Rand's head (henceforth I shall refer to him as Head-Lews, for the BSG fans) was where he shunted all of his inconvenient past life thoughts and memories which he didn't want to or couldn't deal with. You can actually see this happening throughout TSR and TFOH; I'm meant to be working at the mo but if I can find a decent quote later I shall. In this sense, Head-Lews was "real" in that he was made up of real thoughts and memories, but he wasn't "real" in the sense of being an actual separate person speaking in Rand's head.

You are right, I think, that Rand got the working personality circuits; prologue-LTT acts a lot more like Rand throughout the series, though interestingly not much like Rand Sedai.

Grig
08-11-2011, 03:39 PM
That's because the Lews Therin that Rand constructed was based on his perception of the man before the memories.

Not wholly. While I've been on the Construct side of things for a few books, just pointing out that I don't think Rand perceived Lews Therin to like meat pies, or see a reason to think that was just a random made-up factoid by Rand to give his Construct more depth. There was definitely bleedthrough from the past Dragon memories into Rand's construction of the LTT persona. There were also definitely inconsistencies between the persona and the actual LTT, as Zombie Sammael notes.

Terez
08-11-2011, 03:41 PM
I actually wouldn't got that far. I think the LTT in Rand's head (henceforth I shall refer to him as Head-Lews, for the BSG fans) was where he shunted all of his inconvenient past life thoughts and memories which he didn't want to or couldn't deal with.
That's a part of his inconvenient thoughts and emotions. You can see the difference clearly in one of the earlier instances, before he starts talking to the 'voice':

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 43 - This Place, This Day

A memory slid across the emptiness. Not his; Lews Therin's. For once he did not care. In an instant he channeled, and a ball of fire enveloped the top of a hill nearly five miles away, a churning mass of pale yellow flame. When it faded, he could see without the looking glass that the hill was lower now, and black at the crest, seemingly melted. Between the three of them, there might be no need for the clans to fight Couladin at all.

Ilyena, my love, forgive me!

The Void trembled; for an instant Rand teetered on the brink of destruction. Waves of the One Power crashed through him in a froth of fear; the taint seemed to solidify around his heart, a reeking stone.

Clutching the rail until his knuckles ached, he forced himself back to calmness, forced the emptiness to hold. Thereafter he refused to listen to the thoughts in his head. Instead he concentrated everything on channeling, on methodically searing one hill after another.
Helpful memories are acceptable. Grief and pain, on the other hand...he would rather forget it.

In this sense, Head-Lews was "real" in that he was made up of real thoughts and memories, but he wasn't "real" in the sense of being an actual separate person speaking in Rand's head.
Lews Therin's memories came directly to Rand far more often than they came from the voice in his head:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon

Oh, Light, why do I have this voice in my head? Lews Therin moaned. Why can I not die? Oh, Ilyena, my precious Ilyena, I want to join you. He trailed off into weeping. He often did when he spoke of the wife he had murdered in his madness.


It did not matter. Rand suppressed the sound of the man crying, pushed it down to a faint noise on the edge of hearing. He was certain that he was right. But who was the fellow? A Darkfriend, for sure, but not one of the Forsaken. Lews Therin knew their faces as well as he knew his own, and now Rand did, too. A sudden thought made him grimace. How aware of him was the other man? Ta’veren could be found by their effect on the Pattern, though only the Forsaken knew how. Lews Therin certainly had never mentioned knowing—their “conversations” were always brief, and the man seldom gave information willingly—and nothing had drifted across from him on the subject. At least, Lanfear and Ishamael had known how, but no one had found him that way since they had died. Could this link be used in the same fashion? They could all be in danger. More danger than usual, as if the usual were not enough.Rand reasoned out what had happened with Moridin on his own - Lews Therin wasn't much help. The main defining characteristic of Lews Therin that defines the voice is the grief over Ilyena. But that goes along with other inconvenient thoughts and emotions, like those concerning Torval in TPOD, when Lews Therin magically returned after his vacation. Like Rand's desire to kill Taim. His fear and paranoia around Aes Sedai after Dumai's Wells. His tormented memories of Far Madding, and the box. Etc.

AbbeyRoad
08-11-2011, 08:21 PM
This again? I thought we were done with this... :p

Terez
08-11-2011, 11:43 PM
I'm interested to see if anyone is going to try to make a serious argument that the debate isn't over. If in the meantime we have a conversation about Lews Therin, I'm always down. ;)

Daekyras
08-12-2011, 04:06 PM
I'm interested to see if anyone is going to try to make a serious argument that the debate isn't over. If in the meantime we have a conversation about Lews Therin, I'm always down. ;)

I can't see there being an actual meaningful argument.

On a crazy theory note, maybe one of the books in Bran Al'Vere's collection was Magician by Raymond E Feist and Rand had just read it before the series began.

Then, as he started having memories that were not his own he projected them unto the Ashen Shugar/Tomas storyline...:cool:

Zombie Sammael
08-12-2011, 04:12 PM
I'm interested to see if anyone is going to try to make a serious argument that the debate isn't over. If in the meantime we have a conversation about Lews Therin, I'm always down. ;)

The construct vs real debate is over for sure, and in fact having reviewed the books last night I'm leaning more towards your theory on how he was constructed, as well. You win, Terez... this time.

GonzoTheGreat
08-12-2011, 04:22 PM
I'm interested to see if anyone is going to try to make a serious argument that the debate isn't over. If in the meantime we have a conversation about Lews Therin, I'm always down. ;)For now, I'll try it with the following quote:
In the darkness, Fain laughed. "It's never over, al'Thor. Never."I may (or may not) find even more later.

Terez
08-12-2011, 04:30 PM
Good to know we can still count on Gonzo for a serious argument.

confused at birth
08-24-2011, 10:13 PM
[50 posts counting this one were moved from the rules thread]

how far back do the achives go ive seen lots of the yuku stuff im just not sure how far they go back i stopped when i reached the place where everything was repeated but with less fact before the last few books

im stand by my statement going by how hard people stamp on any of the who killed him posts.

the two souls, one soul minds or just nuts wars are kinds of scary the first post i saw here was one and i nearly didnt come back

Terez
08-24-2011, 10:27 PM
That's because Isa made us mad a lot.

confused at birth
08-24-2011, 10:33 PM
who?

Terez
08-24-2011, 10:35 PM
Isabel, also known as Isabela Sedai, also known as Emma.

confused at birth
08-24-2011, 10:39 PM
which side was she on rand is nuts or has two souls

Terez
08-24-2011, 10:50 PM
The latter. When RJ debunked that, she switched to 'Lews Therin is real'. When Brandon debunked that, she resorted to irrational denial of the truth.

confused at birth
08-24-2011, 10:54 PM
denial of the truth is not always irrational.

when the police ask where your ex went can be a good time for denial

did he actually debunk or just slip up

Terez
08-24-2011, 10:59 PM
Both.

confused at birth
08-24-2011, 11:02 PM
yes ok i think of seen this but sometimes slips arent very clear so people think their pet theory is true and the next book comes out and they are still crazy

confused at birth
08-24-2011, 11:05 PM
if someone stops a rant does that mean you have proved your point or are they saving up to rip you apart later

cause i may be in trouble:eek::(

Isabel
08-24-2011, 11:42 PM
Terez: as you know no theory has been debunked.
Brandon has said that he wrote the book that both theories could be correct.

The Unreasoner
08-25-2011, 03:05 AM
if someone stops a rant does that mean you have proved your point or are they saving up to rip you apart later(

hahaha. Have some youngling rep- or get an avatar, then I'll add you.

if you don't want an avatar, just pm me and I'll add you as is. I would just like it if the official record could be kept short.

Terez
08-25-2011, 06:24 AM
Terez: as you know no theory has been debunked.
Brandon has said that he wrote the book that both theories could be correct.
Only because you badgered him about it. It's debunked, get over it.

confused at birth
08-25-2011, 08:56 AM
hahaha. Have some youngling rep- or get an avatar, then I'll add you.

if you don't want an avatar, just pm me and I'll add you as is. I would just like it if the official record could be kept short.
__________________
what do you guys mean by rep anyway?

add me to what?

Sei'taer
08-25-2011, 09:36 AM
__________________
what do you guys mean by rep anyway?

add me to what?

See the little green dots on the top right of your post. that's rep. Younglings can't give rep, so Unreasoner has devised his own way of handling it. If you go to your User CP (control panel) you can see how much rep you have received, for which posts and if they sign it, you can see who gave it to you.

Isabel
08-25-2011, 09:38 AM
Only because you badgered him about it. It's debunked, get over it.

I never talked to him about it. I only asked him a couple of questions about it in public.
So no, he has no reason to be nice to me in this instance.
He says it's not been debunked, so it hasn't been.

Terez
08-25-2011, 09:41 AM
I never talked to him about it. I only asked him a couple of questions about it in public.
So no, he has no reason to be nice to me in this instance.
He says it's not been debunked, so it hasn't been.
He said in his recent email that he didn't intend to settle it outside the books, which means it's settled in the books. He said there and other places that there are clues to the truth in TGS. He made it clear after the release of TGS that he sees Lews Therin as a construct. So, it's debunked, whether or not you like it.

The Unreasoner
08-25-2011, 09:46 AM
what do you guys mean by rep anyway?

add me to what?

*considers changing his mind about the whole thing*

...Ahem:
Youngling Rep: (http://goo.gl/ntTv2)
http://goo.gl/QZNHd
The full explanation of the process is in the youngling rep link.

As for avatars...
They are the little pictures.
Weird Harold has a pretty good guide. (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=60)

Otherwise...
See Sei'taer's post above.

confused at birth
08-25-2011, 09:50 AM
ive been reading the posts not googling the lingo and it takes me awhile to find anything still

you may change your mind at anytime about anything because sanity is a cop out

this is why the dinosaurs gave up one hint and their off to the nut house:D

Enigma
08-25-2011, 11:39 AM
He said in his recent email that he didn't intend to settle it outside the books, which means it's settled in the books. He said there and other places that there are clues to the truth in TGS. He made it clear after the release of TGS that he sees Lews Therin as a construct. So, it's debunked, whether or not you like it.

How does not settling it outside the books means that its settled in the books? Could it not simply mean that RJ wanted it ambiguous with no clear 100% answer and that Brandon was going to stick to that wish.

Sei'taer
08-25-2011, 12:28 PM
How does not settling it outside the books means that its settled in the books? Could it not simply mean that RJ wanted it ambiguous with no clear 100% answer and that Brandon was going to stick to that wish.

Trust me, not worth getting in the middle of this one.

Tamyrlin
08-25-2011, 01:43 PM
Trust me, not worth getting in the middle of this one.

Can we move this discussion out of this thread and merge it with one of the many that came before?

Ishara
08-25-2011, 09:06 PM
hahaha. Have some youngling rep- or get an avatar, then I'll add you.

if you don't want an avatar, just pm me and I'll add you as is. I would just like it if the official record could be kept short.
__________________
what do you guys mean by rep anyway?

add me to what?

Okay - another tip. You can make someone else's post appear to be "quoted" in yours (like above) by pressing the "quote" button at the bottom of their post, OR you can quote multiple posts of various people by pressing the " button, right beside it. This feature is great as it allows to you respond to multiple posts at a time.

You should really hop on over to the noob board where all these things are explained in detail.

Davian93
08-25-2011, 09:29 PM
Okay - another tip. You can make someone else's post appear to be "quoted" in yours (like above) by pressing the "quote" button at the bottom of their post, OR you can quote multiple posts of various people by pressing the " button, right beside it. This feature is great as it allows to you respond to multiple posts at a time.

You should really hop on over to the noob board where all these things are explained in detail.

That is so cool!!!

confused at birth
08-25-2011, 09:34 PM
these tips are helpful but i dont have a "quote" button on posts just above the text box

Isabel
08-26-2011, 12:00 AM
He said in his recent email that he didn't intend to settle it outside the books, which means it's settled in the books. He said there and other places that there are clues to the truth in TGS. He made it clear after the release of TGS that he sees Lews Therin as a construct. So, it's debunked, whether or not you like it.

It's not settled. I asked him after TGS if he wrote the book in that way that both theories would be true.
He said he wrote it in that way.

If you have another quote by Brandon that specifically says that the LTT is real theory is wrong, than post it.
You don't have it.

Davian93
08-26-2011, 09:22 AM
Note: If a moderator desires, to split this post into a thread, your welcome to.

http://collider.com/wp-content/uploads/billy_madison_principal_no_points_mercy_soul_movie _image_01.jpg

I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.

frenchie
08-26-2011, 09:34 AM
Come on, I have him blocked for a reason.

Terez
08-26-2011, 11:30 AM
Felix, if you do that again, your posts will be deleted rather than moved.

confused at birth
08-26-2011, 12:29 PM
if you really think that he is real watch the stargate atlantis episode called duet and if you still believe Rand could have lasted all this time with another person in head then i can do nothing to help you:mad:

confused at birth
08-26-2011, 01:24 PM
ok realized i posted something in the wrong place when i was looking at 2 pages the other day do i move it or repost it?

The Unreasoner
08-26-2011, 01:33 PM
ok realized i posted something in the wrong place when i was looking at 2 pages the other day do i move it or repost it?
I was going to suggest editing the post to include a quote for context, but given that this new thread really only is relevant to some of the recent posts, you may consider reposting (whatever it was supposed to be) in a new thread. There is a Felix one, Terez has a few. Even I have some (though I doubt I would be confused for a girl).

Tamyrlin
08-26-2011, 01:57 PM
I haven't done so in a long time, but I plan to prune this thread a bit...in a bit.

st122
08-29-2011, 04:13 PM
Ok, I'm going to be a noob here. (Sorry Terez, I know you just complained on Twitter about noobs)

I've read a lot about the voice in Rand's head, but I just wanted to ask something that I've not read before.

Take Min's viewing of Rand merging with someone. Rand seems to think it is him and Lews Therin. However, we have also seen that it could refer to his merging with Moridin.

The merger of Rand/Moridin is generally seen as beginning with the Balefire merging. Ishamael does, however, stab Rand and in so doing adds another evil to the wound.

So, what I'm getting at is it possible that the voice of Lews Therin might be Moridin? With the voice growing steadily stronger as the bond strengthens. With Moridin being more adept, might it not be possible for him to recognize the interaction with Rand earlier and thereby manipulate it to his ends.

This might also explain why Brandon's views changed upon reading the notes...? This is probably not the case. I just wanted to ask what you think and it is bugging me. (Oh and if it was asked before, I did search, but try finding something with Lews and Moridin... or am I just not skilled enough in the ways of Theoryland?)

Flame away at my post... :)

AbbeyRoad
08-29-2011, 04:26 PM
So, what I'm getting at is it possible that the voice of Lews Therin might be Moridin? With the voice growing steadily stronger as the bond strengthens. With Moridin being more adept, might it not be possible for him to recognize the interaction with Rand earlier and thereby manipulate it to his ends.
If that were the case, why did the voice disappear after the climax of TGS, when Rand integrated the voice?

Also, the voice of "LTT" clearly knows many things Moridin could not have known.

confused at birth
08-29-2011, 04:31 PM
Hi AbbeyRoad.

st122
08-29-2011, 04:40 PM
haha...

It could be explained by Moridin just sitting back while things go according to plan... but yes that is a problem.

The voice could also be partly Rand and partly Moridin who is using it to plant seeds in Rand's head in the same way he might have used herid fel (i think). Two people with the same idea, both whom Rand trusts. It would be rather sneaky from Moridin.

Anyway this is just a random thought that I thought could be interesting, since I've not seen it before.

confused at birth
08-29-2011, 04:41 PM
the theory is sound after looking around this place you just drop a strange thought and watch it take on a life of itds own

The Unreasoner
08-29-2011, 05:04 PM
the theory is sound after looking around this place you just drop a strange thought and watch it take on a life of itds own

Are you a construct?

confused at birth
08-29-2011, 05:06 PM
s

Lupusdeusest
08-29-2011, 10:22 PM
If the two men merging are LTT and Rand, how can they are the same man and always have been? How can one live and one die?

Lupusdeusest
08-29-2011, 10:24 PM
I may have put that comment in the wrong thread. I went off to search for the quote I wanted and must have used the wrong tab to do so... bother!

Wunderwaffe
08-30-2011, 09:01 AM
I think it is overwhelmingly clear that the voice in Rand's head was not the real Lews Therin Telamon. Those who hold on to their stubborn belief that it is -- abandon your foolish pride and admit you were wrong. You will feel better for it.

Isabel
08-30-2011, 09:45 AM
Wunderwaffle: Brandon said he wrote the book so that both theories are still valid. So we don't have to admit anything and I won't :D

Zombie Sammael
08-30-2011, 09:49 AM
Wunderwaffle: Brandon said he wrote the book so that both theories are still valid. So we don't have to admit anything and I won't :D

Putting aside what Brandon said and what he didn't, how do you account for the fact that the Lews Therin in Rand's head is clearly written very differently from the Lews Therin in "Dragonmount", the prologue to TEOTW?

GonzoTheGreat
08-30-2011, 10:04 AM
Putting aside what Brandon said and what he didn't, how do you account for the fact that the Lews Therin in Rand's head is clearly written very differently from the Lews Therin in "Dragonmount", the prologue to TEOTW?Stress?

In the prologue, LTT was either mad, under considerable stress, or both.

confused at birth
08-30-2011, 10:07 AM
pretty much stress free i would think, no kids, no wife and no santiy.
why would he be stressed?

Zombie Sammael
08-30-2011, 10:15 AM
Stress?

In the prologue, LTT was either mad, under considerable stress, or both.

LTT in the prologue behaves and acts more like pre-Dragonmount Rand than anything else. Even his thought processes seem similar. He was also mad for a considerable period, but his madness is nothing like the ravings of the madman "Lews Therin" in the back of Rand's mind throughout much of the series. If LTT was real you would expect his words and behaviour when in Rand's mind to be more like his behaviour in the prologue. This is not the case.

Isabel
08-30-2011, 10:51 AM
LTT in the prologue behaves and acts more like pre-Dragonmount Rand than anything else. Even his thought processes seem similar. He was also mad for a considerable period, but his madness is nothing like the ravings of the madman "Lews Therin" in the back of Rand's mind throughout much of the series. If LTT was real you would expect his words and behaviour when in Rand's mind to be more like his behaviour in the prologue. This is not the case.

Huh, I would say that he does match the LTT in the prologue. I don't see why he wouldn't match. Provide quotes in which it doesn't match.

Any differences occur, because you have essential two reincarnations in one head. So they would be influencing each other.

JOS
08-30-2011, 11:27 AM
the theory is sound after looking around this place you just drop a strange thought and watch it take on a life of itds own

Are you a construct?

LOL

A construct would be more literate.

confused at birth
08-30-2011, 11:30 AM
say that again?

who said i must make sense to be here

JOS
08-30-2011, 12:31 PM
say that again?

who said i must make sense to be here

Here you go:

the theory is sound after looking around this place you just drop a strange thought and watch it take on a life of itds own

Are you a construct?

LOL

A construct would be more literate.

Just observing something that I thought you were proud of. For reference, follow the link in the quote below:

i am the king of rome and above grammar
grammar is of no value to me as long as you got what i meant

EDIT to add: Anyway, if you were a construct of The Unreasoner's mind, as was implied jokingly, I would expect your style, grammar and such to resemble that of your host. Like a mad version of a past life, based on the mind's interpetation of a probable insane personality that fits memories and thoughts that cannot be otherwise accounted for or coped with. Or something like that.

confused at birth
08-30-2011, 12:37 PM
still not sure what you are getting at,
grammar is optional
spelling has been proved to be unnecessary
logic has no value in real life
i dont get your point
im going to get more toast now

The Unreasoner
08-30-2011, 12:58 PM
If you remember in the PM I sent you, I pointed out that a modicum of sanity was necessary for meaningful communication.

Seems the same could be said for grammar.

confused at birth
08-30-2011, 01:03 PM
i have very meaningful communication with my metal bug quite often and meaningless communication with real people daily so which is more important.

i use enough most of the time




how can i unforget something that has not happened yet?

Tamyrlin
08-30-2011, 01:05 PM
EDIT to add: Anyway, if you were a construct of The Unreasoner's mind, as was implied jokingly, I would expect your style, grammar and such to resemble that of your host. Like a mad version of a past life, based on the mind's interpetation of a probable insane personality that fits memories and thoughts that cannot be otherwise accounted for or coped with. Or something like that.

is a good theory...well, speculation, I probably wouldn't post it up on the site without a more detailed analysis, quotes, etc.

Terez
08-30-2011, 01:06 PM
He's probably posting one account from his laptop and the other from his phone.

confused at birth
08-30-2011, 01:08 PM
but you seem to post from both sides of your brain with different voices so am i nuts or are you a computer desk

The Unreasoner
08-30-2011, 01:42 PM
He's probably posting one account from his laptop and the other from his phone.

This is ridiculous. Ask Tamyrlin to check our IPs. Again, as I seem to remember you accusing me of this before. Do a frequency analysis on our word choices.

Terez
08-30-2011, 01:43 PM
This is ridiculous. Ask Tamyrlin to check our IPs.
We're not that stupid. Hence the phone/laptop comment.

Do a frequency analysis on our word choices.
Why would you post the same under an alt account?

The Unreasoner
08-30-2011, 01:47 PM
I doubt you think I am intelligent enough to be able to consciously influence something so broad. And IPs can be geographically traced.

Zombie Sammael
08-30-2011, 01:51 PM
Whilst it's not conclusive, The Unreasoner has been PMing me rather a lot of... criticism of Confused to actually be him. I would lean towards them being two different people.

confused at birth
08-30-2011, 01:51 PM
that right Terez get out your tracing paper and a map and prove im not the crazy voice in that bad mans head

The Unreasoner
08-30-2011, 01:53 PM
Whilst it's not conclusive, The Unreasoner has been PMing me rather a lot of... criticism of Confused to actually be him. I would lean towards them being two different people.

I think I criticized his grammar.

Zombie Sammael
08-30-2011, 01:54 PM
I think I criticized his grammar.

You shouldn't say mean things about people's grammars. Most are sweet old ladies.

confused at birth
08-30-2011, 01:55 PM
Zombie Sammael, really sounds fun dont have to PM as i dont get insulted by strangers opinions.

and its not like you know if im trying to make sense or not.

The Unreasoner
08-30-2011, 01:56 PM
You shouldn't say mean things about people's grammars. Most are sweet old ladies.

Didn't you bring it up in the first place?

confused at birth
08-30-2011, 01:56 PM
yes dont say things about her she has alzheimer's and will make you repeat it 5 times before it hurts her

The Unreasoner
08-30-2011, 01:58 PM
yes dont say things about her she has alzheimer's and will make you repeat it 5 times before it hurts her

Please shut up. You're not helping either of us.

Terez
08-30-2011, 01:59 PM
Everyone stop spamming the thread or posts will get deleted.

Tamyrlin
08-30-2011, 02:02 PM
This is ridiculous. Ask Tamyrlin to check our IPs. Again, as I seem to remember you accusing me of this before. Do a frequency analysis on our word choices.

I just said it was a good theory. I'd take Sei'taer as Confused as a good theory too...I mean, hell, I sold Aviendha killed Asmodean as a good theory.

confused at birth
08-30-2011, 02:04 PM
I sold Aviendha killed Asmodean as a good theory.

and people think im nuts

Tamyrlin
08-30-2011, 02:06 PM
and people think im nuts

Unfortunately wrong though.

confused at birth
08-30-2011, 02:12 PM
Hi Tamyrlin

Wunderwaffe
08-30-2011, 02:29 PM
Wunderwaffle: Brandon said he wrote the book so that both theories are still valid. So we don't have to admit anything and I won't :D

Both theories can't be valid. One is right, the other is wrong. I'm not going to argue this subject because its been done over, and over, and over, and over. I think Brandon's statement reeks of political correctness -- he doesn't want to step on anyone's toes or shatter anyone's dreams. He doesn't want to divide the WoT community; he wants to unite us. And if he were to come out and say "the voice in Rand's head was not the real LTT" a lot of people would (irrationally) feel betrayed.

That's the way I feel about it, anyway.

I also feel that the proponents of the "LTT is real" camp have been holding on to their belief for so long, that admitting defeat is no longer an option, regardless of how much evidence is arrayed against their theory.

The Unreasoner
08-30-2011, 02:32 PM
One is right, the other is wrong.

Have you heard of SchrŲdinger's cat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat)? Jordan linked the physicist's view of the scenario with the ability to write fantasy.

Wunderwaffe
08-30-2011, 10:31 PM
Of course I'm aware of it, but I fail to see how it has any bearing in this discussion. I find it mildly amusing that one would go to such lengths to attempt to prove a point that requires significantly less thought. The "realer's" are thinking way too deeply into this relatively simple matter. As RJ would put it, the answer is "intuitively obvious to even the most casual of observers."

Robert Jordan wasn't the kind of author who "left things to the reader's interpretation." He knew exactly what was what in his world. I refuse to believe he would intentionally leave something this big to the reader's interpretation. And if he did, then I just lost a profound amount of respect for him.

GonzoTheGreat
08-31-2011, 04:52 AM
Both theories can't be valid. One is right, the other is wrong.But being right or wrong is not the same as being valid or invalid.

A theory is valid if it is logically consistent, explains all the available relevant evidence and is not contradicted by any of that evidence. This may of course mean that evidence which is not avialable (now) contradicts the theory.
A theory is right if it is a perfect representation of reality. In this case, there can not be any contradictory evidence at all.

Specifically: there could be something in the notes which says which theory is right and which is wrong. But if the story is written in such a way that that bit of evidence has not been mentioned, then both theories could still be valid for us, the readers, which is what BS meant.
Or it might be that there is a note which explicitly says that both theories have to be treated as valid throughout the entire series. In that case, there would not be any contradictory evidence for either theory at all.

phil01
08-31-2011, 08:11 AM
I think both answers are correct. Our personalities are made up of our memories and experiences. So whilst Rand constructed a voice to deal with these nmemories the voice came from the experiences of LTT therefore it was really his voice. Part of dragonmount was him coming to terms with these memories and that they weren't 2 people they were one. The new Rand is not like the old Rand or the old LTT he is a mixture of both but they are the same person with just different experiences. Therefore the 2 merged into one. You could almost argue that Rand died to live i.e the old Rand is no longer he is a new Rand.

Charlz Guybon
09-03-2011, 02:13 AM
My problem with the construct vs. real voice argument is that I basically reject the distinction. If Rand's fractured psyche is responding to the influx of memories by constructing Lews Therin's voice to give expression to those memories that counts as a real individual to me.

Maybe I've just read or watched to much transhuman science fiction. But if you upload someone's memories into a clone or an android you've created a new and distinct individual. Rand going mad from absorbing his past life memories and constructing the Lews Therin personality from them is no different to me.

Terez
09-03-2011, 02:20 AM
My problem with the construct vs. real voice argument is that I basically reject the distinction. If Rand's fractured psyche is responding to the influx of memories by constructing Lews Therin's voice to give expression to those memories that counts as a real individual to me.
He doesn't give expression to the memories through the voice, except for the whining about Ilyena. The memories come directly to him. The voice expresses his suppressed thoughts and emotions, up to and including the Ilyena problem, which is why the distinction is necessary. The lines aren't as clear as Rand=Rand, and The Voice=Lews Therin.

GonzoTheGreat
09-03-2011, 03:59 AM
Well, apart from the whining about Ilyena, there's the advice on how to break free from being shielded. And there's the killing of the Trollocs with deathgates. And memories regarding the Forsaken.

Then there's the fight with Lanfear, where LTT almost takes over. And what's one of the possible outcomes that Moiraine knew about? That LTT would take over, and happily run off with Lanfear.

All in all, apart from the evidence, you have a strong case. But if one takes the evidence into account, then it's a lot muddier.
Which, come to think of it, was precisely RJ's intention.

Terez
09-03-2011, 12:55 PM
Well, apart from the whining about Ilyena, there's the advice on how to break free from being shielded.
Not much of it. Rand mostly figured it out on his own.

And there's the killing of the Trollocs with deathgates. And memories regarding the Forsaken.
The voice didn't say anything about this. These examples demonstrate my point, not yours.

Then there's the fight with Lanfear, where LTT almost takes over.
You mean where Rand really wanted to kill her, and fought the urge because he believed it was wrong?

And what's one of the possible outcomes that Moiraine knew about? That LTT would take over, and happily run off with Lanfear.
That Rand would call himself Lews Therin. There was surely something like Compulsion going on there, unless you want to suggest that Lews Therin somehow wanted to do such a thing.

All in all, apart from the evidence, you have a strong case.
And you are a troll.

their ďconversationsĒ were always brief, and the man seldom gave information willingly
That shows you are wrong in a rather over-arching way, which I'm sure RJ intended for those with the wits to pick up on it.

confused at birth
09-03-2011, 02:30 PM
That Rand would call himself Lews Therin. There was surely something like Compulsion going on there, unless you want to suggest that Lews Therin somehow wanted to do such a thing.


Rand might not but Lews Therin why not?

Why wouldnt he want someone from his own time that he can relate to? Yes she is evil but since when has that put men off beautiful women?

And if you could actually stop loving someone completely why do things they do still hurt if they now mean nothing to you?

Terez
09-03-2011, 02:47 PM
In either case, there is only one possible scenario that doesn't involve Compulsion or Rand being turned to the Shadow: he decided to give her what she wanted so she would stop killing people and maybe eventually give up evil altogether. Lews Therin is any stupider on that account than Rand, and if you're going to argue otherwise, you need to provide some evidence from the books rather than your idea that Lanfear's hotness is relevant to anything.

confused at birth
09-03-2011, 02:57 PM
maybe you are right:eek:

But i didnt mean he would join her just because she is beautiful but maybe that he might still love her.

And i thought you didnt believe he is real which might make it more possible if Rand only had the memories of when they were together but LTT isnt real then he might accept those as what LTT really felt for her.

And if he is real well what we have heard from him is mostly nuts so i wouldnt count on him to make any sane picks in love.

there is only one possible scenario that doesn't involve Compulsion or Rand being turned to the Shadow

Only one really?
have you forgotten the training the Seanchan gives their new pets? that really does work on humans not just dogs and captured Aes Sedai, torture mixed with rewards could have turned Rand into her slave even without her having him turned to the shadow first.

Terez
09-03-2011, 03:04 PM
If you're going to bring insanity into it, then the scenario is hardly an indicator that Lews Therin is 'real' and 'took over'. More like, Rand is Lews Therin, so he could go either way.

confused at birth
09-03-2011, 03:08 PM
Rand is Lews Therin, so he could go either way.

a good point, but my post was trying to be very neutral and not get the he is real nutjobs on my back:eek:

Look at my post again and see:D