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Ishara
08-12-2011, 08:52 PM
To recap the concept:

First, pop over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5669) for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

This week, we're discussing Moghedien also known as Lilen Moiral:


So, here's what we know of Lilen Moiral from before her turning to the Shadow. We know her name (one of the few ugly female names in WoT, in my humble opinion). Note that she never earned a third name, so she wasn't eminent or important or particularly well respected in the AoL. We know that she was a "advisor for investments" who was cautioned several times as well as disciplined for violating the ethics and laws surrounding her profession. Now, while the BWB doesn't define what an advisor for investments is, I feel as if perhaps its not exactly rocket science to deduce the gist of it. And yet, she has long had a reputation for avoiding chance, not gambling or taking risks of any kind, ever. So how do those two concepts mesh? I guess she violated those ethics very carefully...

Her reputation for care and caution earned her the name Moghedien when she turned to the Shadow, named after a tiny, deadly spider in the Age of Legends. I've always believed her to be a coward, but hey, that's me.

We also know that during the War of Power, before she was exposed (killing thousands in her escape), many disasters, betrayals and deaths were attributed to her actions on the "inside." LTT trusted her, at some point. After her exposure, Moghedien plots to take down Lews Therin, but Teadra (Birgitte) foils her plan, and Moghedien basically tells her that she has long memory and won't forget Birgitte's role in her failure.

The last piece of information we have that's solid (apart from reams of evidence that she's a sneaky, conniving piece of work) is that she's not dumb. She researches her options and weighs everything carefully. Except when she's using balefire to erase riverboats.

So...

How could a financial advisor end up in LTT's staff structure? Was she supervising the distribution of grain? Was she a jumped version of Norry?

Her long memory and careful nature can make her a pretty nasty adversary, I guess. Do we think she really hates Moridin and is waiting for him to slip before she strikes? Can she strike when he's still got his mindtrap? What are the implications of the trap? What if he dies before he releases her? Does she die with him?

We also know she hates Cyndane/ Lanfear more than she did before they became trapped together. Is this a case of two cats in a very small box or is it something more?

As much as I have utter disdain for her, she has proved herself dangerous and I don't think we've seen the last of her...

Terez
08-12-2011, 09:29 PM
I think she hates Cyndane more now because, as Cyndane said, Cyndane leads between the two of them. Moghedien doesn't like that she's been subordinated to another of the Chosen. Nae'blis is bad enough.

As for her future role, I imagine Moridin will use her to guard the dreamspike at the Black Tower, now that he knows Slayer isn't enough. Maybe she'll do other things, but with one book left, it's hard to see.

Enigma
08-13-2011, 11:25 AM
I think she hates Cyndane more now because, as Cyndane said, Cyndane leads between the two of them. Moghedien doesn't like that she's been subordinated to another of the Chosen. Nae'blis is bad enough.

On the other hand she is enought of a coward to enjoy having Cyndane take the blame for anything that might go wrong or draw fire from enemies.

Frenzy
08-13-2011, 01:12 PM
Moghedien's enough of a self-serving coward that she'll likely survive the upcoming unpleasantness unless a) someone specifically targets her, b) she gets thrust unwillingly into a situation a la the Cleansing, or c) (and i hope it isn't C) she get's unlucky.

How did she end up as a trusted member of Lews Therin's organization? Wars are expensive, and somebody has to gather in the funds to pay for them.

Moghedien's effectiveness will be directly proportional to how much freedom she has. If she has the ability to tap into an information network and the time to think thru the intel she gathers, she's cunning enough to figure stuff out and use it to her advantage. If she can't, she's just a guard in livery.

sleepinghour
08-13-2011, 02:50 PM
As much as I have utter disdain for her, she has proved herself dangerous and I don't think we've seen the last of her...
She always was a coward, but I'm curious to see if that's changed since Winter's Heart where her last thoughts were: "Strangely, she still felt no fear. She thought if she survived this, she would never feel fear again." It would be fitting, in a way, if Nynaeve was partly responsible for Moghedien losing her greatest weakness--her cowardice--since Moghedien was responsible for Nynaeve losing her block in ACoS.

Enigma
08-13-2011, 08:29 PM
If she has grown a backbone it may be too little too late. Given her circumstances she is as likely to be used by Moridin as cannon fodder as anything else.

Res_Ipsa
08-14-2011, 01:58 AM
While I would agree Moghedien is a coward it is important to note that she would not view herself as a coward. She is alive precisely because she is bendable. Where certain characters are unable to bend and adapt, Moghedien thrives. She has experienced her fair share of disappointments and yet she lives where others of the chosen have fallen.

I am reminded of a real world example.

Following the Vietnam War one of the North Vietnamese generals discussed the war with his US counterpart. The US general reflected that the US had dominated on the land, sea, and air. The North Vietnamese general simply stated that despite those truths, North Vietnam had won the war. The US general blustered but how could he deny the obvious.


The point is what seems to be cowardice, in the case of Moghedien cannot be understood as a simple thing when all that matters is the end result. Yes, she has been punished for her failures and can hardly be said to be free in her own mind and body but she is alive and still able to effect change for the DO. Also, her survival would be frustrating to no end when one views a preconceived notion of "acceptable" conduct on how one should survive. Just like the US general, many would discount her actions without realizing that she has won.

One's definition of cowardice would appear relative if you consider a priority list with survival at the top, and so long as you succeed in that category all other considerations can be explained away by ones own reasoning (deluding or lying to one's own self). I would definitely argue that the Spider is able to convince herself of anything so long as she can survive in the process.

Enigma
08-14-2011, 07:16 AM
Appearing to be a coward could certainly be a useful plot for survival among the forsaken. If one compares Moggy to say someone like Demandred most of the forsaken view Moggy with contempt and while they all say one has to keep an eny on her, none of them seem to take her too seriously unless they are virtually on their death bed.

If she actually had a bit of courage she could use that contempt. All the forsaken are certain she would never try a srike one on one and tend to let their guard down. She could take one completly by surprise and if it was done right, none of the other's would ever know what she had done.

Demandred on the other hand is widely feared/respected by the others and they all keep their guard up when he is around so he had no real opening for a strike.

The trouble is that the spider lacks the determination to take a chance. The only example I can think of her ever risking anything was her attack on Nynaeve by balefire and that was driven by very very strong hatred that she seems to lack for any of the other forsaken.

She might survive to the end game but the way the Shadow is organised survival is not enough. True survival means you have to be No 1 otherwise eventually when the numbers are wittled down even the spider will stand out and end up being used by who ever is in charge.

Juan
08-14-2011, 12:54 PM
@enigma
True survival means staying alive... Which is has so far.

She might have not killed any Forsaken for her own reasons.

Also, if you recall reading Graendal's POV in ToM, you'll find that if you're gonna actually kill a forsaken, you better have a damn good reason to, else the DO will get pissed. He doesn't like losing his Chosen because they don't trust each other or get along. It's one thing that he encourages competition and distrust, and manipulation, and lies, etc. It's another thing to actually lose them because they all try to kill each other. If that was the case, the Shadow woulnt be as organized as it is, because they'd be constantly killing each other when the opportunity presented itself.

Enigma
08-14-2011, 03:40 PM
@enigma
True survival means staying alive... Which is has so far.

Yes survival means staying alive but that is only in the short to medium term among the shadow. If you survive long enought but don't gain rank eventually someone who has grained rank can put you in a position thats very hazerdous to your health and all for some gain that your superiour wants, not necessarily you want.

Granted even the braver forsaken such as Demandred now find themselves having to jump when Moridin says hop and while the DO may not like loosing forsaken I think both Moridin, SH and the Dark One will not loose to much sleep if they lose some forsaken getting some advantage this close to the lans battle.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-14-2011, 04:53 PM
Moghedien, along with Graendal (but for Graendal I've other reasons) is... possibly the most "understandable" of the Forsaken for me. Spider in the web, the puppetmaster. You know, when I was little I used to dream that when I grew up, I'd become Richelieu from the Three Musketeers. The puppetmaster, the spider in the web, the Gray Cardinal. He's always portrayed in such bad light but the guy was really awesome. He kept the country from falling apart while the king thought it might be nice to give the soldiers some haircuts. And he was either modest enough or very clever to describe himself as (I'm paraphrasing) "I am like a 0. I need a 1 to stand in front of me to be anything at all".

Moghedien, on the other hand has made a few fairly bad decisions on when to strike. However, through it all she is still alive, still plotting and still vicious. I find it interesting that she joined the Shadow only after the Bore was drilled, although, so did quite a few others. It sounds like a very calculated move: she picked the side most likely to get her where she wants - on top of the world, ruling everything like the master puppeteer she thinks she is.

Although, to be honest until now I'd never looked at her real name. Lilen. Switch the L-s to N-s and N to L and turn the name around, what do you get? Coincidence? Financial adviser indeed...

In certain ways Moghedien is the perfect counterpoint to Graendal: while Graendal delves deep into one subject and one alone, pushing all distractions to the side as much as possible, Moghedien divides her attention in as many ways as possible. Graendal's strongest point was the study of the mind - the waking mind. But Moghedien's is Tel'aran'rhiod - the sleeping mind.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-15-2011, 01:48 AM
so while I was sleeping, ironically enough, it occurred to me that it wold make perfect sense for Moghedien to have been punished for spying in people's dreams. Imagine if you were working on Wall street and had access to the dreams of Steve Jobs? Not only to glean knowledge of his next moves but also perhaps to influence his moves...

Enigma
08-15-2011, 04:41 AM
so while I was sleeping, ironically enough, it occurred to me that it wold make perfect sense for Moghedien to have been punished for spying in people's dreams. Imagine if you were working on Wall street and had access to the dreams of Steve Jobs? Not only to glean knowledge of his next moves but also perhaps to influence his moves...

It sounds like the sort of thing that she would have done but I don't think she was ever caught. I'm going from memory and I can't recall if it was in the Guide or elsewhere but I thought it was said that she was on LTT's staff as a mid level official and she caused a public transport disaster to cover her tracks when she was discovered and had to run.

The point is would LTT or the Light allows say a stock broker with a conviction for unethical behavour onto his staff and at middle management position. Granted she was not a top general or such but it seems very stupid that in a fight to the death against the forces of evil you give responsiblity to somoene who has proved that they are suceptible to evil.

Zombie Sammael
08-15-2011, 05:06 AM
Granted she was not a top general or such but it seems very stupid that in a fight to the death against the forces of evil you give responsiblity to somoene who has proved that they are suceptible to evil.

It would depend how desperate that fight to the death was; we know that by the time of the strike at Shayol Ghul, it was very desperate indeed, so it depends upon how late in the day Moggy actually went over.

Enigma
08-15-2011, 05:19 AM
I don't think we are ever told when she was publically outed. The first 3 years in the war saw a lot of territory taken by the Shadow. Over the next 4 years the light reclaimed a lot of ground. Then there was year of stalemate before the shadow started its final push.

Its a guess but she was probably in place for at least the early years but would she have been one of the top 13 if she was still a spy and LTT was reclaiming a lot of territory during the 4 year period? Doesn't sound like a great spy.

In any event things only got really bad for the light at the end. Before that I can't think that they would be able to reclaim so much territory but be so short of staff that an ethically channeleged stock broker would have to be given a mid ranking position in the commander in chief's staff. Thats a bit like putting notorous gossip to work in the CIA or pentagon during time of war.

Ishara
08-15-2011, 08:02 AM
It sounds like the sort of thing that she would have done but I don't think she was ever caught. I'm going from memory and I can't recall if it was in the Guide or elsewhere but I thought it was said that she was on LTT's staff as a mid level official and she caused a public transport disaster to cover her tracks when she was discovered and had to run.

The point is would LTT or the Light allows say a stock broker with a conviction for unethical behavour onto his staff and at middle management position. Granted she was not a top general or such but it seems very stupid that in a fight to the death against the forces of evil you give responsiblity to somoene who has proved that they are suceptible to evil.

Thanks to the BWB, we know for sure that she was caught being unethical and charged before she turned. We also know that she was an operative for a fair amount of time before being exposed and staging that transit explosion to cover her escape. We also know that she was responsible for the deaths (indirectly and directly) of more than a few of LTTs higher-ups. Now, yes, the BWB is not the most accurate source of info, but we have to contest it with right now. So it seems that yeah, he did hire the unethical stock broker into his team knowingly. But if LTT was anything like Rand (LOL) then we know he was likely to give people a second chance...

WinespringBrother
08-15-2011, 08:50 AM
Thanks to the BWB, we know for sure that she was caught being unethical and charged before she turned. We also know that she was an operative for a fair amount of time before being exposed and staging that transit explosion to cover her escape. We also know that she was responsible for the deaths (indirectly and directly) of more than a few of LTTs higher-ups. Now, yes, the BWB is not the most accurate source of info, but we have to contest it with right now. So it seems that yeah, he did hire the unethical stock broker into his team knowingly. But if LTT was anything like Rand (LOL) then we know he was likely to give people a second chance...

Considering how long the Black Ajah has remained hidden within the White Tower, it isn't surprising that the Shadow was able to infiltrate LTT's army. The Shadow is just sneaky that way. Also, Moggy has shown that she can go undercover (Gyldin, Marigan).

I'd like to know what the Dark One was talking about when he said that Moggy did some good by accident.

Zombie Sammael
08-15-2011, 08:56 AM
I'd like to know what the Dark One was talking about when he said that Moggy did some good by accident.

Possibly leading the Shadow to the rebels?

sleepinghour
08-15-2011, 09:51 AM
I'd like to know what the Dark One was talking about when he said that Moggy did some good by accident.

The incident with Birgitte revealed that the Heroes of the Horn reside in T'A'R where they can be killed. Imagine Mat blowing the Horn during the Last Battle only to discover the Heroes aren't coming because Slayer already killed them all in T'A'R... That's probably not going to happen, but I think it would have made an interesting twist and made Slayer seem far more menacing as a villain.

And we still don't know what Moghedien ordered the remaining three Black sisters in Liandrin's group (Jeaine Caide, Rianna Andomeran, Berylla Naron) to do. They haven't been seen or heard of since TFoH.
Possibly leading the Shadow to the rebels?
The Shadow could easily have found out about Salidar from the Black sisters there, so I don't think it's that.

GonzoTheGreat
08-15-2011, 10:16 AM
The Shadow could easily have found out about Salidar from the Black sisters there, so I don't think it's that.Jedi hand wave: "These are not the rebels you were searching for."

Davian93
08-15-2011, 10:25 AM
Jedi hand wave: "These are not the rebels you were searching for."

Well, she might be considered to have inadvertantly revealed the existence of the Kin by giving Nynaeve/Elayne so much info that they were promoted/sent to Ebou Dar.

That's kinda big.

WinespringBrother
08-15-2011, 10:48 AM
Well, she might be considered to have inadvertantly revealed the existence of the Kin by giving Nynaeve/Elayne so much info that they were promoted/sent to Ebou Dar.

That's kinda big.

The Kin weren't really a secret though, except to the Accepted, I mean Nynaeve and Elayne :p

Davian93
08-15-2011, 10:53 AM
The Kin weren't really a secret though, except to the Accepted, I mean Nynaeve and Elayne :p

I thought there was some quote out there about the Shadow not knowing about the Kin or not knowing their true extent of something like that. A part of why the Black Sisters in Ebou Dar didn't think it was a big deal to torture/kill a couple of them.

I dont have a full search available but here's WoT Encyclopedia:

"WH,Ch8 - Elayne and Nynaeve believe there are no Darkfriends among the Kin, else Ispan would have known much more about them. "

WinespringBrother
08-15-2011, 11:16 AM
I thought there was some quote out there about the Shadow not knowing about the Kin or not knowing their true extent of something like that. A part of why the Black Sisters in Ebou Dar didn't think it was a big deal to torture/kill a couple of them.

I dont have a full search available but here's WoT Encyclopedia:

"WH,Ch8 - Elayne and Nynaeve believe there are no Darkfriends among the Kin, else Ispan would have known much more about them. "

The Shadow didn't learn of the existence of the Kin from Nynaeve/Elayne. The supergirls learned of the Kin at the same time that the Kin found out that one of their members, Callie, was found killed (at the hands of Ispan and Falion, who presumably knew she was with the Kin and would lead them to the *angreal stash because of that association).

I suppose it is possible that Moghedien found out about the secret existence of the Kin off-screen and sent Falion and Ispan after them. However, I don't think that is likely that the Shadow didn't know about the Kin, since the White Tower knew about their existence, so therefore the Black Ajah would have known about them.

Enigma
08-16-2011, 06:28 AM
Don't forget that Moghedien also sent various BA sisters out on missins that we did not see. Perhaps one or more of them caused some mischief.

Davian93
08-16-2011, 09:01 AM
The Shadow didn't learn of the existence of the Kin from Nynaeve/Elayne. The supergirls learned of the Kin at the same time that the Kin found out that one of their members, Callie, was found killed (at the hands of Ispan and Falion, who presumably knew she was with the Kin and would lead them to the *angreal stash because of that association).

I suppose it is possible that Moghedien found out about the secret existence of the Kin off-screen and sent Falion and Ispan after them. However, I don't think that is likely that the Shadow didn't know about the Kin, since the White Tower knew about their existence, so therefore the Black Ajah would have known about them.

Well, even the full AS didn't know the true extent of the Kin...they just thought it was an informal group solely based in Ebou Dar...they were just as shocked as Nynaeve/Elayne on there being thousands of members throughout Randland...and them hiding a HUGE cache of angreal/ter'angreal/sa'angreal.

WinespringBrother
08-16-2011, 09:18 AM
Well, even the full AS didn't know the true extent of the Kin...they just thought it was an informal group solely based in Ebou Dar...they were just as shocked as Nynaeve/Elayne on there being thousands of members throughout Randland...and them hiding a HUGE cache of angreal/ter'angreal/sa'angreal.

It's likely that in some ways, the Shadow actually knew more about the Kin than the White Tower, even though no Kin were darkfriends. After all, if the Tower knew or even suspected that the Kin were hiding that cache, they would have been all over the Circle and Ebou Dar trying to track it down. And Sammael and Moghedien knew enough to send their own hunters for that treasure.

Davian93
08-16-2011, 09:23 AM
It's likely that in some ways, the Shadow actually knew more about the Kin than the White Tower, even though no Kin were darkfriends. After all, if the Tower knew or even suspected that the Kin were hiding that cache, they would have been all over the Circle and Ebou Dar trying to track it down. And Sammael and Moghedien knew enough to send their own hunters for that treasure.

But both tracked down that cache with no knowledge whatsoever of the Kin. Had they known, it would have been far easier for both of them.

WinespringBrother
08-16-2011, 10:24 AM
But both tracked down that cache with no knowledge whatsoever of the Kin. Had they known, it would have been far easier for both of them.

I was under the impression that Falion and Ispan were sent to interrogate the Kin to track down the cache, but it seems they did that under their own initiative. My bad. So how did the different Forsaken (Sammael and Moghedien) independently (since it seems like they were not cooperating with each other) track down the items? Moggy sent Falion and Ispan off on their mission in TFOH. Sammael somehow knew about the cache and hinted at it in LOC to Graendal. Not to mention, Nynaeve and Elayne found it on their own, in tel'aran'rhiod, using need. Perhaps Moggy knows of using need, but would Sammael?

Davian93
08-16-2011, 10:27 AM
Well, Sammael's a general so he might have just reasoned it out of historical reports or something.

Otherwise, I have no idea what the "accidental good" that Moggy might have done could possibly be.

Perhaps it was by building a false sense of security that Moggy would be the only Forsaken in the Rebel camp so once she was gone, Egwene never even thought to suspect another was there, let alone Halima?

GonzoTheGreat
08-16-2011, 10:36 AM
Egwene wouldn't have suspected anyone anyway, so I don't think that's it.

Davian93
08-16-2011, 10:41 AM
Egwene wouldn't have suspected anyone anyway, so I don't think that's it.

Well, a normal intelligent person would have given that Forsaken have shown up in every other center of power within Randland.

WinespringBrother
08-16-2011, 10:57 AM
Well, a normal intelligent person would have given that Forsaken have shown up in every other center of power within Randland.

Given that Egwene was hiding a Forsaken as her maid, the fact that another Forsaken infiltrated the rebel camp is kind of beside the point :rolleyes:

Davian93
08-16-2011, 11:07 AM
Given that Egwene was hiding a Forsaken as her maid, the fact that another Forsaken infiltrated the rebel camp is kind of beside the point :rolleyes:

Not really. The point is that Egwene probably figured that the Forsaken sent to infiltrate her camp had already been caught...and thus, she wasn't even looking for one. Unlike when she was in the White Tower and was frantically looking for Mesaana.

GonzoTheGreat
08-16-2011, 11:39 AM
Not really. The point is that Egwene probably figured that the Forsaken sent to infiltrate her camp had already been caught...and thus, she wasn't even looking for one. Unlike when she was in the White Tower and was frantically looking for Mesaana.Which, I have to grant Egwene, she came to believe quite soon after Verin and Sheriam banged her over the head about it.
Is there any evidence suggesting that without their information she would've had a clue?

WinespringBrother
08-16-2011, 11:48 AM
Not really. The point is that Egwene probably figured that the Forsaken sent to infiltrate her camp had already been caught...and thus, she wasn't even looking for one. Unlike when she was in the White Tower and was frantically looking for Mesaana.

Even if Egwene suspected there was another Forsaken, how would she initiate a search without either causing a panic, getting accused of starting a witchhunt, giving away Moghedien's presence by mistake, or just in general being dismissed as a clueless novice by the senior Aes Sedai in charge of pulling her puppet strings?

GonzoTheGreat
08-16-2011, 12:14 PM
Even if Egwene suspected there was another Forsaken, how would she initiate a search without either causing a panic, getting accused of starting a witchhunt, giving away Moghedien's presence by mistake, or just in general being dismissed as a clueless novice by the senior Aes Sedai in charge of pulling her puppet strings?She could have asked Rand. He had turned out to be quite adept at smoking out Forsaken.

WinespringBrother
08-16-2011, 12:55 PM
She could have asked Rand. He had turned out to be quite adept at smoking out Forsaken.

Would she have asked for help before or after this scene?

Lord of Chaos CHAPTER: 18 - A Taste of Solitude
His anger was swallowed by a maddening grin; it was frightening how quickly that could happen with him. '"A cat for a hat, or a hat for a cat,' " he quoted.
But nothing for nothing, she finished mentally. She had heard Taren Ferry folk say that when she was a girl. "You put your cat in your hat and stuff it down your breeches, Rand al'Thor," she told him coldly. She managed not to slam the door on her way out, but it was a near thing.

Enigma
08-16-2011, 03:01 PM
She could have asked Rand. He had turned out to be quite adept at smoking out Forsaken.

Politically asking Rand for help would be suicide for Egwene. She would be seen as a tool of the Dragon Reborn. Not to mention her pride would have to take a backseat. She found it hard enought to ask Rand how he travelled.

Not to mention until recently dark Rand was not the sort of person you wanted to be around, let alone loose in a camp of Aes Sedai.

GonzoTheGreat
08-16-2011, 03:18 PM
Far better to be a tool for a Forsaken, you mean?

Enigma
08-16-2011, 03:33 PM
I'm not saying it was the right choice but at the risk of turning this into an Egwene thread the way Egwenen sees the world is as follows:

1 The Aes Sedai are the only transnational group that can look at the big picture as opposed to other groups that follow more limited national interest. As they alone can see the big picture they are key to the light having any hope of winning.

2 None of the rest of the AS see Rand as a person, they see hm as a dangerous eratic creature that must be controled. Egwene wants to do what is right but also honestly believes that she is the best suited to deal with Rand and take him in hand.

3 To be in a position to take Rand's hand and lead him in the right direction and be the buffer between him and the rest of the AS she has to be in charge.

4 To be in charge and given any authority and respect she has to be able to solve the problems herslef and not go running for help.


Put it another way, what do you think would be the reaction in the US if President Obama asked the German Chancelor to come over to Washington and run the US government for a while seeing as the German economy is in a lot better shape that the US?

GonzoTheGreat
08-16-2011, 04:04 PM
1 The Aes Sedai are the only transnational group that can look at the big picture as opposed to other groups that follow more limited national interest. As they alone can see the big picture they are key to the light having any hope of winning.Maybe they could, but they don't. Instead, they look to the limited interests of the White Tower.
That is actually my main criticism of almost all AS. There are a few exceptions (Moiraine, Siuan perhaps, Verin, maybe Cadsuane), but on the whole, AS look out for AS.

Put it another way, what do you think would be the reaction in the US if President Obama asked the German Chancelor to come over to Washington and run the US government for a while seeing as the German economy is in a lot better shape that the US?Let's look at it a bit more realistically, shall we?
How hard would the Republican Party object if Obama got Jesus to take over for a while?

That is the correct analogy, not Egwene stepping aside for Weiramon, as you're suggesting.
And, as you can probably figure out, I expect the Republicans (yeah, even the Tea Party) to be more rational than the average AS is. Caveat: this is not in any way, shape or form intended as a compliment for right wing Americans.

GonzoTheGreat
08-16-2011, 04:06 PM
As an aside, I'm wondering why Moghedien didn't get help from any Black Ajah members. She should have been able to recruit them fairly easily.

JOS
08-16-2011, 04:54 PM
Let's look at it a bit more realistically, shall we?
How hard would the Republican Party object if Obama got Jesus to take over for a while?

That is the correct analogy, not Egwene stepping aside for Weiramon, as you're suggesting.
And, as you can probably figure out, I expect the Republicans (yeah, even the Tea Party) to be more rational than the average AS is. Caveat: this is not in any way, shape or form intended as a compliment for right wing Americans.

First, I wonder how much the Left would object to that arrangement.

Second, is there a parallel going Left-ways? How hard would the Democratic Party object if Obama got _______ to take over for a while?

Hopefully Egwene will think of the grand scheme rather than just the White Tower when it comes to negotiations over breaking the seals, preparing for TG, and "dealing" with male channelers. Stubborn woolhead. I think she will be taken down a notch.

Are there any Forsaken incognito at FoM? Seems like something Mogi would like to peek in on.

Terez
08-16-2011, 05:10 PM
Are there any Forsaken incognito at FoM?
Egwene invited Demandred, but he decided not to come.

the_collective
08-16-2011, 06:01 PM
And we still don't know what Moghedien ordered the remaining three Black sisters in Liandrin's group (Jeaine Caide, Rianna Andomeran, Berylla Naron) to do. They haven't been seen or heard of since TFoH.

I'd like to propose that we may have a hint at what Berylla Naron may be up to (admittedly, it's a tenuous possible-hint).

First of all, in TFoH, Chapter 18 (Liandrin PoV), we have the only physical description of Berylla available in all the books: she is "lean, to the point of being scrawny." She's also noted to be "a manipulator and planner" in the same PoV.

Now I'd like to direct your attention to TGH, Chapter 23, in which Nynaeve enters the testing ter'angreal. In the second of the three rings ("for what is"), Nynaeve ends up in a simulated Emond's Field which is suffering in her absence. The village has been plagued for weeks by a series of unfortunate events starting from the moment 'Malena Aylar' showed up from Watch Hill to relieve Mavra Mallen (whom Nynaeve had appointed as Wisdom in her stead) as Wisdom of Emond's Field. Without going into detail, she poisons several that speak against her (including Bran al'Vere and Haral Luhhan - both very upstanding men), condemning them for Darkfriends and bullies everyone that has a thought to question her motives and/or actions. Toward the end of this little scene-within-a-scene, Malena herself shows up on-screen and she is described thusly: "a tall, scrawny woman..." and then: "Bony as she was, she had a look of wiry strength, and a set, determined slash of a mouth."

As an aside: I've been rereading; I'm only on TGH so far and I just came across this scene yesterday. At first, I thought that maybe this woman bore some physical resemblance to Semirhage, but the modus operandi is not at all the same. For Berylla, the physical description AND modus operandi match (such as it is). So that got me thinking...

Obviously this exact scenario never went down. Emond's Field acquired Daise Congar as their Wisdom instead, and the village was never beset by the Shadow to such a substantial degree as Nynaeve had feared (at this point in the story, anyway). I'm not suggesting that this scene is a prescient look into Nynaeve's future as presented, but rather that there just might be a kernel or two of truth in the scene.

For instance, there is one fact that is true about this scene that Nynaeve could not possibly have consciously known: Tam al'Thor and Abell Cauthon are conspicuously absent of any mention at all. If one looks at the timing of this scene in the grand chronology of the books, the 'real world' reason for this would be that those two gentleman are on their way to Tar Valon, but Nynaeve could not know this. I assert the conjecture that those two men are NOT present in Emond's Field during this scene, not because we were told so specifically (we weren't), but because of the complete absence of any mention of either man. I also assert that this conspicuous absence is a product of the ter'angreal knowing enough of the 'present-day' Pattern (and all the threads therein) to include their absence.

That is - had either man actually been in this fictional Emond's Field, the events described in this fictional scene would have either transpired differently OR would have included them by name as people that had attempted to stand up to this woman and paid for it in some way (just as Bran al'Vere and Haral Luhhan tried to). Therefore, I propose that they were certainly not in this fictional Emonds' Field, they were presumably on their way to the fictional Tar Valon.

So, if you're still with me (and I know that some of you are most definitely NOT with me), I'm suggesting by this omission that the ter'angreal is somehow using actual fact from the actual Pattern (as opposed to that which can be contrived using only Nynaeve's memories/experiences).

To further illustrate, I refer you just a few pages prior (same chapter, the first time she enters the ter'angreal "for what was") to another great example of this ter'angreal taking and using actual FACT from the Pattern completely independent of any preconceived notion of Nynaeve's conscious/subconscious mind:

In this scene, Nynaeve is battling Aginor in a maze of some kind and on two separate occasions during this fight, Nynaeve is capable of not only feeling, but redirecting Aginor's flows of saidin, which is impossible. Nynaeve doesn't know this, of course, but apparently this fictional ter'angreal-created Aginor does:


The Great Hunt: Chapter 23, The Testing

Abruptly there were clouds in the sky, threatening billows of gray and black. Lightning leaped from the cloud, straight for Nynaeve's heart.

It seemed to her, just for a heartbeat, as if time had suddenly slowed, as thought that heartbeat took forever. She felt the flow inside her - saidar, came a distant thought - felt the answering flow in the lightning. And she altered the direction of the flow. Time leaped forward.

With a crash, the bolt shattered stone above Aginor's head. The Forsaken's sunken eyes widened, and he tottered back. "You cannot! It cannot be!" He leaped away as lightning struck where he had stood, stone erupting in a fountain of shards.

Now, I'll finally get back to my original point. If we can accept the possibility that this ter'angreal does somehow access actual factual information about how the Pattern works independent of the knowledge possessed by a given candidate, it seems possible that we may be able to infer the intent/actions of a given member of the Pattern based on what we see here.

I put forward that the description of Berylla Naron (scant though it may be) matches that of the fictional Malena Aylar (it's important to note that this name is never mentioned anywhere again, implying that either this person is completely a figment of Nynaeve's imagination - which, if true, is the only time an imaginary person shows up in this ter'angreal the we know of - OR the name Malena Aylar is a psuedonym for an individual known by the Pattern. Of course, it's possible that such a Darkriend exists by that name in Watch Hill and hasn't been mentioned ever in the series, but I'm personally not buying that) from Nynaeve's trip into the second ring ("for what is") and that we might be able to use some information from this scene to determine the present-day whereabouts of this Moghedien-controlled Black Ajah Aes Sedai.

As I continue my reread, I'll keep an eye out to see if I can offer more information on the subject.

Southpaw2012
08-16-2011, 08:55 PM
Egwene invited Demandred, but he decided not to come.

hahahaha iiiiii know what you're referring to

Weiramon
08-17-2011, 12:21 AM
No doubt loyal King Roedran has good reason to refuse the invitation to Merrilor.

Burn my soul, it would not be a surprise to hear the loyal king has gathered for war and is even now leading an army to aid those fighting in Caemlyn.

But the loyalty of those mercenary armies besieging Caemlyn is . . . questionable. The loyal King Roedran best destroy all the mercenary armies caught outside the City walls.

FelixPax
08-17-2011, 05:25 PM
No doubt loyal King Roedran has good reason to refuse the invitation to Merrilor.

Burn my thread posting, King Roedran is needs more acres. ;)


Burn my soul, it would not be a surprise to hear the loyal king has gathered for war and is even now leading an army to aid those fighting in Caemlyn.

Burn the hand that takes freely offered aid, King Roedran is only loyal to himself. Bloody hell, that foreigner has even made an alliance with the Seanchan Empire!


But the loyalty of those mercenary armies besieging Caemlyn is . . . questionable. The loyal King Roedran best destroy all the mercenary armies caught outside the City walls.

As in the Band of Red Hand? Lord Aedmun of the House of Matherin?

Tsk. Tsk.

Every reader knows Lord Aedmun's men are loyal to Queen Elayne of Andor. Snow delayed their arrival to Caemlyn, as Elayne's point of view acknowledge's. See 'Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 10'.


Shadow on Weiramon's mind still? Jealous of Talmanes position? Perhaps not... just misinformed?


Hasn't Weiramon ever wondered why the Sky and Land are an utter mess as of ToM book?

'but the Dragon . . . the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon.” (TEOTW, Ch. 34 "The Last Village")

Where was the Dragon last known destination? Murandy.


Me thinks, Weiramon needs to find a Red Apple... a Cape like Anaiyella's.

Imagine Weiramon's calves popping out of his spotless silver boots... fit for a ball... on a gelding. ;)

Weiramon
08-17-2011, 06:10 PM
Where was the Dragon last known destination? Murandy.




Burn my soul, there were stories of a travelling show that disappeared while heading to Murandy, being pursued by a bloodthirsty creature from legend.

yks 6nnetu hing
09-15-2011, 09:26 AM
I'm now almost at the end of FoH in my re-read and here's one thing not yet mentioned for Moghedien:

In chapter 48, the Seal to the DO's prison is still giving out an evil vibe:
TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 48 - Leavetakings.
She was only trying to avoid the washleather purse stuffed right to the back, and she knew it, yet there was not a hair’s difference for ugliness between the purse and the thought of losing to Moghedien again. Drawing a deep breath, she gingerly reached, in and took it up by the drawstrings, and knew she had been wrong. Evil seemed to bathe her hand, stronger than ever, as if the Dark One really was trying to break through the cuendillar seal inside. Better to dwell all day on defeat by Moghedien; there was a world of difference between thought and reality. It had to be imagination-there had been no such feeling in Tanchico-but she wished she could let Elayne carry that, too. Or leave it there.

On the same day, they meet Marigan and bring her with in a group of refugees from Samara:

TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 49 - To Boannda
Marigan, a few years older, had been plump once, but her frayed brown dress hung on her loosely now, and her blunt face looked beyond weary. Her two sons, six and seven, stared silently at the world with too-big eyes; clinging to each other, they seemed frightened of everything and everyone else, even their own mother. Marigan had dealt in cures and herbs in Samara, though she had some odd ideas about both. That was no wonder, really; a woman who offered healing with Amadicia and Whitecloaks right across the river had to keep low, and even from the first she had had to teach herself. All she had ever wanted to do was cure sickness, and she claimed to have done it well, though she had not been able to save her husband. The five years since his death had been hard, and the coming of the Prophet had certainly not helped her any. Mobs searching for Aes Sedai chased her into hiding after she had cured a man of fever and rumor had turned it into bringing him back from the dead. That was how little most people knew of Aes Sedai; death was, beyond the power to Heal. Even Marigan seemed to think it was not. She did not know where she was going any more than Nicola. A village somewhere, she hoped, where she could dispense herbs again in peace.

they spend 3 days on the way to Boannda and a few more days on the way to Salidar. When they reach Salidar, the Seal is broken:

TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 50 - To Teach, and Learn
Beonin had not said a word since the shield of saidar was lowered, but as Nynaeve and Elayne made their curtsies, the Gray sister rose and strode to the table where their things were laid out. “And what of thjs?” she demanded in heavy Taraboner accents, whipping aside the white cloth that covered the seal on the Dark One’s prison. For a change, her large blue-gray eyes looked more angry than startled. “Are there to be no more questions about this? Do you all mean to ignore it?” The black-and-white disc lay there, next to the washleather purse, in a dozen or more pieces, fitted back together as neatly as they could be.
TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 50 - To Teach, and Learn
“It was whole when we put it in the purse.” Nynaeve paused to work moisture back into her mouth. As much as her eyes had avoided the covering cloth before, they could not leave the seal now. Leane had smirked when she saw the red dress unwrapped from around its cargo, and said. . . No, she would not run away from it, even in her head! “Why should we have thought to take special care? It’s cuendillar!”

At this point there are only 3 unbroken seals left. Now, I'm not entirely sure what it takes to break a seal. Nynaeve and Elayne certainly didn't detect Moggy channeling, but then again they didn't detect her until some time later and she'd been doing it all along (IIRC).

Did Moghedien "help" to break that seal? I think yes she did.

GonzoTheGreat
09-15-2011, 09:31 AM
I don't think so. If she could have, then she would not have left the seal where it was when she first found it.

FelixPax
09-15-2011, 02:46 PM
Question for you all: Where is Moghedien planning to trap Birgitte, Elayne Trakand, Nynaeve al'Meara at?


I'm specifically asking for discussion, because of this particular Moghedien point view:

Stepping out from behind a thatch-roofed house, Moghedien wondered idly where this little village was. Not the sort of place she would expect to see banners flying. The girl had been stronger than she had thought, to escape her weaving of Tel’aran’rhiod. Even Lanfear could not improve on her abilities here, whatever she claimed. Still, the girl had just been of interest because she was speaking to Elayne Trakand, who might lead her to Nynaeve al’Meara. The only reason to trap her had simply been to rid Tel’aran’rhiod of one who could walk it freely. It was bad enough that she must share it with Lanfear.

But Nynaeve al’Meara. That woman she meant to make beg to be bound in her service. She would take her in the flesh, perhaps ask the Great Lord to grant her immortality, so Nynaeve could have forever to regret opposing Moghedien. She and Elayne were scheming with Birgitte, were they? That was another she had reason to punish. Birgitte had not even known who Moghedien was, so long ago, in the Age of Legends, when she foiled Moghedien’s finely wrought plan to lay Lews Therin by his heels. But Moghedien had known her. Only, Birgitte—Teadra, she had been then—had died before she could deal with her. Death was no punishment, no end, not when it meant living on here.

Nynaeve al’Meara, Elayne Trakand, and Birgitte. Those three she would find, and deal with. From the shadows, so that they would not know until too late. All three, without exception.

She vanished, and the banners waved on in the breeze of Tel’aran’rhiod.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 25 "Dreams of Galad" -- Moghedien point of view




Jewelry of a Ruler


Does Moghedien retain the Queen's Jewelry of Ghealdan still? The queen's necklace Masema took or stole from Alliandre?




I'm not saying it was the right choice but at the risk of turning this into an Egwene thread the way Egwenen sees the world is as follows:

1 The Aes Sedai are the only transnational group that can look at the big picture as opposed to other groups that follow more limited national interest. As they alone can see the big picture they are key to the light having any hope of winning.


Technically speaking, Egwene al'Vere does refer to the Kin as transnational group. A group that can disappear at will. See Egwene's comments in Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 30 "What the Oath Rod Can Do".

yks 6nnetu hing
09-16-2011, 04:55 AM
Question for you all: Where is Moghedien planning to trap Birgitte, Elayne Trakand, Nynaeve al'Meara at?
Er... it's pretty straightforward, as Moggy goes: she disguised herself as Marigan and attached herself to the trio. Thus gaining especially Nynaeve's sympathy and trust and entering Salidar. Sure, she probably had several more plans going on at the time but she made sure she was physically close to her targets.



Jewelry of a Ruler


Does Moghedien retain the Queen's Jewelry of Ghealdan still? The queen's necklace Masema took or stole from Alliandre?

when did she get her hands on it and why is it important?

FelixPax
09-19-2011, 02:38 PM
Egwene invited Demandred, but he decided not to come.

False. Terez is incorrect.

Egwene al'Vere only invited the King of Murandy, in ToM book. (Grant that particular Chapter in ToM book, felt off in terms of Egwene's PoV. Details.)


Terez continues to try to sell a theory, at Demandred is King Roedran. :rolleyes:


================================================== =======


I'm a bit amusing no one has tried to sell this idea yet at Theoryland forum:


If Demandred is impersonating anyone, outside of the two Shadow Mountain Coast nations, who to say it's not as the current King of Tarabon? A person Suroth formally put into power over Tarabon, no unless.

Who controls a darkfriend like Suroth? Chosen do.

FelixPax
09-20-2011, 10:14 PM
Er... it's pretty straightforward, as Moggy goes: she disguised herself as Marigan and attached herself to the trio.

True, good point.

I have more to write about Moghedien, however I need to edit my lengthy response first.


when did she get her hands on it and why is it important?

1st Short Answer: From Masema, in Samara.

2nd Short Answer: It ties directly to a Foretelling Dream Egwene al'Vere had early in the series. Moghedien is one of Chosen who have acquired the symbols of a Ruler.


Moghedien is the one who rules Ghealdan, in terms of power relations for a long part of the book via the Prophet of the Dragon Reborn. Not Queen Alliandre.

Moghedien is the one who is likely responsible for the death of the Panarch prior to Amathera Aelfdene Casmir Lounault. Moghedien is one of those who created chaos in Tarabon.