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FelixPax
08-19-2011, 08:35 PM
Edit: I could go more into detail and depth, however this was only a quick rough gist of a broader theory.

Actually, none of them are post-TPOD. The Foreshadowing was in TGH, and Perrin met Bashere in LOC. The line of succession was made clear in TOM, but we always suspected Faile was second based on the fact that Bashere and Faile are Tenobia's only relatives we know of. We know she doesn't have children.

Present does not absolutely predict nor determine the Future.


Tenobia is still of childbearing age, though. Who's to say if Queen Tenobia's future soulmate is searching for her, a kin to Birgitte's own Gaidal Cain?

Considering how Robert Jordan seems to enjoy creating bonds among States, Groups by marriage:


High Seat Caroline Damodred engaged to King Darlin of Tear
Four Wise Ones sought to have Aviendha wed to "He Who Comes With the Dawn".
Elayne gained Rand al'Thor love.
Tuon strong belief that Omens and a Foretelling pushed her to give her marriage vows to Matrim Cauthon.

I'm of the view that, Queen Tenobia soulmate is someone in particular she has not met yet. Who might that individual be? Yes, this is a Theory...One, King Beslan of Altara, a man who dislikes women who wear veils. Be it, Taraboner Nobles or Seanchan Blood.


Titles married: The Shield of the North and Sword of the Blightborder, a High Seat three times over shall wed the Grace of the Light, King of Altara, Master of the Four Winds, Guardian of the Sea of Storms, and a High Seat to boot.

Tenobia has given an Oath to Rand al'Thor, meanwhile Beslan has given an Oath to Fortuona and the Seanchan Empire. Unifying Tenobia to Beslan, helps to unite the Griffin Pact to the Seanchan Empire without further fighting. Peace will slowly come, post-Last Battle.


Metaphorically speaking, the ruling titles for Tenobia and Beslan are related to Matrim Cauthon and Valan Luca souls. Tenobia is "The Shield", as Matrim Cauthon is a "Shield, as Artur Hawkwing is "The Shield". Beslan is a Guardian of "the Sea Of Storms", as the Dragon is the Storm/Hurricane, as Valan Luca is the true blinded Dragon.

Their collected Titles--Shield, Guardian--imply that each will have a role to play in the near future protecting both Matrim Cauthon and Valan Luca. (AMoL Prediction.)

Tenobia's Broken Crown of Saldaea, shall be reforged by marriage, to King Beslan. In terms of emotions & actions, their 'two peas in a pod'.
She was a good ruler, neither too heavy-handed nor too light, intelligent if not always wise, brave without being foolhardy, but impulsive was a mild description of her. Sometimes, hotheaded was mild. And he was as sure as he could be that she had her own goal aside from whatever the others aimed at.


Crossroads of Twilight, Prologue "Glimmers of the Pattern" -- Davram Bashere point of view; his thoughts “Mat won’t corrupt Beslan,” Birgitte said dryly as the door closed behind the men. “I doubt nine feather dancers with a shipload of brandy could corrupt him. They wouldn’t know where to begin.”

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 21 "Swovan Night" -- Nynaeve point of view, BIRGITTE speaking“Just be sure your visit is brief. Stab my eyes, but Davindra will be one of those widows who wants comforting, and then you will either have to marry her or kill her brothers .” By her tone, the first alternative was much the worse, the second merely a nuisance. “This is Master Mat Cauthon, my son. He is ta’veren. I hope you will make a friend of him .


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 16 "A Touch on the Cheek" -- Matrim Cauthon point of view; Tylin making a request to her son Beslan.Davindra is akin to Elayne, Min, Aviendha coming situation after Rand al'Thor is killed in AMoL book. Matrim Cauthon will be given a situational choice, which Beslan already understands:
Hunting, Beslan called it, and when Mat said hunting for girls without thinking—he would never have said that in front of somebody’s mother had he thought—the boy laughed and said, “A girl or a fight, pouting lips or a flashing blade. Whichever dance you’re dancing at the moment is always the most fun. Wouldn’t you say so, Mat?” Tylin smiled at Beslan fondly.

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 16 "A Touch on the Cheek" -- Matrim Cauthon point of view; with Tylin, Beslan.Beslan can be indeed be loyal to his Mother Tylin's request, his Oath to Fortuona, and to Matrim Cauthon request to wait on Rand.


Similarly Queen Tenobia can be loyal to her given Oaths to the Griffin Pact, to her People, to Rand al'Thor and still find her soulmate in the midst of Epic Wars of Roses, Light & Shadow.

Beslan up to the task of kissing Tenobia, no less:What’s the fun of kissing a woman without the risk she’ll decide to stick a knife in you?”

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 38 "Six Stories" -- Matrim Cauthon point of view; Beslan speakingKnife as in Marriage or Death.Who is an equal of a King? A Queen.
Who is an equal of a Queen? A King.

Tenobia needs an equal; Beslan needs an equal. One who is not lesser. One who is similar enough to themselves. One who each can love. One who can aid removing the threat of the Seanchan Empire to their lands.


Beslan like Elayne understands the importance of who ruler's wed, as does Suroth too.
Suroth says I should marry one of their Blood and shave the sides of my head, and mother is listening to her. Suroth might pretend they are equals, but she has to listen when Suroth speaks. No matter what Suroth says, Ebou Dar isn’t really ours anymore, and the rest won’t be either. Maybe we can’t push them out by force of arms, but we can make the country too hot to hold them. The Whitecloaks found out. Ask them what they mean by ‘the Altaran Noon.’ ”


Winter's Heart, Chapter 16 "An Unexpected Encounter" -- Matrim Cauthon point of view; with Thom, Olver, Beslan Beslan like Tenobia, has a desire to fight, to go to war, to lead a military effort. Yet each if given a fair choice will choose a durable peace over a war. Marriage.
I've always gotten a good laugh, at how RJ metaphorically described Beslan's childhood (lost) toys:“Everything is quite filthy, and I am afraid mildew has ruined several of my Lord’s best coats.”

“They were all in a cupboard with Prince Beslan’s childhood toys, my Lord,” Lopin laughed, tugging at the lapels of a dark coat like Juilin’s.

...

I doubt anyone has been in that cupboard since the Prince put his toy soldiers away .”


Winter's Night, Chapter 18 "An Offer" -- Matrim Cauthon point of view; with Nerim, Lopin at the Ebou Dar Palace Beslan and Tenobia together can have their uprising, to gain their freedom.
“The people will rise when I give the word,” Beslan went on. “My friends and I have talked to men all over the city. They are ready to fight!”

Sighing, Mat eased his weight more onto his good leg. He suspected that when Beslan gave the word, he and his friends would rise alone. Most people were more willing to talk about fighting than to do it, especially against soldiers. “Beslan, in gleeman’s tales, grooms with pitchforks and bakers with cobblestones defeat armies because they want to be free.” Thom snorted so hard, his long white mustache stirred. Mat ignored him. “In real life, the grooms and the bakers get killed. I know good soldiers when I see them, and the Seanchan are very good.”

“If we free the damane along with the Aes Sedai, they will fight beside us!” Beslan insisted.

“There must be two hundred or more damane up in the attic, Beslan, most of them Seanchan. Free them, and like as not, every last one will run to find a sul’dam. Light, we couldn’t even trust all the women who aren’t Seanchan!” Mat held up a hand to forestall Beslan’s protest. “We have no way to find out which we can trust, and no time to. And if we did, we’d have to kill the rest. I’m not up to killing a woman whose only crime is that she’s on a leash. Are you?” Beslan looked away, but his jaw was set. He was not giving up.


Winter's Heart, Chapter 28 "News in a Cloth Sack" -- Matrim Cauthon point of view; with Thom, Beslan et alBeslan stubbornness is going to payoff, in AMoL book. Grooms and Bakers will win their freedom, including the White Tower's Mistress of Kitchens herself. Beslan knows how Matrim Cauthon will act, if pushed to the choice of killing a damane (Elayne), or marrying her. Beslan judgment is correct, the damane will fight with them, if given their freedom by Matrim Cauthon. Shalon's Sea Folk will fight, with Mat Cauthon too.

Beslan, like Tenobia, is a key to the Last Battle, to uniting the Seachan Empire to the Westlands.





Beslan, Tenobia are two character's there has not been enough discussion about, on any Wheel of Time forum. Be it at, Dragonmount, Tar Valon, 13th Depository, RAFO, Leigh Bulter's Tor.com comment pages.


For an added spice, who believes they can win at Snakes and Foxes?

Beslan... Unfortunately, Beslan was another who seemed to think you could win at Snakes and Foxes.Who else?

Olver.

Young Mat and Olver... their future is bright together.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Recall what the former King of Amadicia's Titles were? Ailron, Anointed by the Light, King and Defender of Amadicia, Guardian of the Southern Gate.... 'The Southern Gate' is wide open, now. Welcome to Amadicia... here comes Shadowspawn.

Bix
08-19-2011, 09:44 PM
Go Away.

Davian93
08-19-2011, 10:57 PM
As this is a theory, not a WoT question, I assume you accidentally posted it in the wrong thread and have thus moved it to its own discussion for better flow.

Enjoy.

FelixPax
08-26-2011, 08:55 AM
what did i miss i dont remember skimming and dreaming having a link?:confused::confused::(

What did might you have missed?


No Wind is present in the Skimming zone (Egwene pov). Hence, none of the "Nine Winds" nor "Stormbringer" are (natively) present in the "Skimming" zone.

A World of Dreams is present in every Mirror World, Parallel World.


In a Parallel World, Dreams and Flesh exist in the same space, time dimension. In a Mirror World, Dreams and Flesh exist in separate spaces, time dimensions.

Some individuals in a Mirror World can exist consciously in both spaces, times dimensions. These are some individuals who are Dreamers or Dreamwalkers; do note their particular degree of talent, ability, knowledge, and understanding can and does vary widely:
Amys (of Taardad Aiel),
Bair (of Shaarad Aiel),
Melanie (of Goshien Aiel),
Nynaeve al'Meara,
Elayne Trakand,
Amathera Aelfdene Casmir Lounault (an overthrown Panarch of Tarabon),
Anaiyella Narencelona (Tairen High Lady),
Siuan,
Leane Sharif,
Rand al'Thor,
Perrin Aybara (Wolfbrother),
A Sharan noble whom Perrin watches die,
Elyas (able to, yet chooses not to),
Therava (of Shaido Aiel),
Gera (a Salidar Aes Sedai Cook, who dreams of becoming Green Ajah),
Liandrin,
Morvrin (former Salidar Brown Ajah Head),
Beonin (former Salidar Gray Ajah Head, & Elaida mole),
Myrelle (former Salidar Green Ajah Head),
Aviendha (has with Twisted Ring),
Birgitte (has with Twisted Ring), aka Moondancer
Moghedien,
Mierin, aka Selene, Lanfear, Moonhunter
Demandred,
Graendal,
Alviarin Freidhen, (with a Dream ter'angreal)
Moridin, aka Ishamael
Elaida, aka Suffa (LoC, Ch.7),
Lord Captain of the Panarch’s Legion (who knows where he is now? Tarabon to Two Rivers? Tarabon to Salidar Aes Sedai army?),
Valan Luca (a snake with legs)(implied Dreamer repeatedly, not direct evidence)


A World of Dreams is not present, where and when the Dark One rules. Recall, Mierin had a 'dreamless sleep' for 3,000 years.

The Dark One can capture Chosen who use Skimming as a mechanism for Traveling. Skimming zone is not safe, from his long Hand. Example: Moghedien

Again—how many times had she done this?—again Moghedien wove a small gateway in the tent. She Skimmed to give herself time to think in the endless dark, but no sooner did she step onto her platform, like a small enclosed marble balcony complete with a comfortable chair, than she arrived on the black slopes of Shayol Ghul, forever shrouded in twilight, where vents and tunnels emitted steam and smoke and harsh vapors, and a Myrddraal came to her in its dead black garb, like a slug-white, eyeless man, but taller, more massive than any other Halfman.


The Path of Daggers, Chapter 25 "Mindtrap" -- Moghedien point of view


Basically every Salidar Aes Sedai knows how and can use Skimming, whether Solo or in a Linked Circle (to get enough Saidar to create the platform).

What Egwene had pried from Moghedien was a way to journey from a place you did not know well to one you did. Slower than Traveling, Skimming was not one of the lost Talents—no one had ever heard of it—so even the name was credited to Egwene. Anyone who could Travel could Skim, so every night sisters Skimmed to Salidar, checking the dovecotes for birds that had returned to where they had been hatched, then Traveled back.

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 9 "A Pair of Silverpike" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; her thoughts while on the border of Murandy-Andor
However, either the Sea Folk Windfinders nor Kinswomen have been seen moving by the Skimming mechanism. A very important point, I suspect.


No Stars have been found in the Skimming zone. Why not? Dark One touch?



I guess the best way to describe Skimming, is it is a place which exists between:


the Creator,
the Dark One,
Mirror Worlds; Parallel Worlds; Worlds becoming a Mirror or Parallel World.

Earth is a 'becoming' World, becoming Parallel. Why?

'The Stars' are falling to the ground.

Examples include: Nemaris, Agni Neres, Valan Luca (The Dragon, The Snake), Matrim Cauthon (The Shield), Bayle Domon (Bear), Birgitte (The Archer), Rand al'Thor (The Plowman), Gawyn (the Stag), Moiraine (the Traveler) et la.

Other Stars include 'Five Sisters', 'Ram', 'Three Geese', 'The Cup', 'The Haywain'.

When one of these individuals dies, a Star will die too--as in both Perrin and Rand's characters.

This is one reason Skimming is slower, than a Traveling gateway... because the sheer distance moved is much further.


Skimming, is a part of what Verin once called the "Third Constant".

The point is that there is a third constant besides the Creator and the Dark One. There is a world that lies within each of these others, inside all of them at the same time. Or perhaps surrounding them. Writers in the Age of Legends called it Tel’aran’rhiod, “the Unseen World.” Perhaps “the World of Dreams” is a better translation.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 21 "A World of Dreams" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view, Verin speaking


The Darkness found in the Skimming zone, is a foreshadowing of what's to later to occur in the Tel'aran'rhoid of Earth: Darkness. This Darkness in the Skimming Zone, Tel'aran'rhoid foreshadowed the same Darkness to occur in the World of Flesh found on Earth too, as of Towers of Midnight book.



Note: If a moderator desires, to split this post into a thread, your welcome to.

FelixPax
08-26-2011, 09:10 AM
No, they could not survive that. They would start feeling peckish halfway through, and eat the Skimmmer. After which the skimming platform would disappear, of course, and the Trollocs would all die.

Really, this is rather elementary. If it could be done, then it would have been done. So the fact that it hadn't been done proves my explanation to be accurate.

Is simply elementary that no Stars exist, in the Skimming zone? Is normal, for a Chosen to be immediately taken to Shayol Ghul upon entering a platform?

Isn't not elementary to claim that the Skimming zone is subject to the Dark One's will? His Hand breaking through the eggshell layers of Worlds?


Dark One --> Skimming zone --> Earth's World of Dreams --> Earth's World of Flesh.


Hasn't any one ever wondered how Myrddraal can move from place to place, on an edge of a Shadow?

Do Myrddraal Skim?

confused at birth
08-26-2011, 03:47 PM
i cant tell if you are making a joke:confused:

Zombie Sammael
08-26-2011, 03:51 PM
i cant tell if you are making a joke:confused:

Don't worry, nor can anyone else.

confused at birth
08-26-2011, 03:54 PM
but how am i to tell what are really posts and when someone is just messing with me?

Crispin's Crispian
08-26-2011, 04:54 PM
but how am i to tell what are really posts and when someone is just messing with me?

With Felix, it's difficult to tell. Just do your best. There are other people who post where it's hard to tell joke vs. real, but most of us make it pretty clear. If it's not clear, just ask. Most of us.

That said, this theory doesn't seem like a joke at all. Unfounded and lacking evidence, but still not a joke. I've often wondered how the Fades do their trick, and I guess it could be tied to the Skimming space. That would seem unlikely, though, as shadows are still part of reality, not outside the Pattern. Or ARE THEY?!!!

The Unreasoner
08-26-2011, 05:11 PM
shadows are still part of reality, not outside the Pattern. Or ARE THEY?!!!

I'm reminded of the description of the palantiri given in Unfinished Tales, they only show areas that have at least some light.

It may be more of the awareness-defined reality, and similar to TP gateways. Darkness/shadows have weak reality, because light (fundamental to all matter) is nearly absent. Light/illumination may be the most fundamental awareness/acknowledgement that the world possesses. Which, if true, might make the reality of shadows thin enough that Myrdraal can just 'jump' through. Similar to TP Traveling, but Myrdraal can only use available gateways/shadows.

GonzoTheGreat
08-27-2011, 05:12 AM
In regard to a possible link between Myrddraal movement, I think that the following quote is pertinent:
Bloodless lips twisted in a smile. That was its only reply. Turning sharply, it strode away through patches of shadow – and abruptly was gone.
Semirhage wished she knew how Myrddraal did that. It had nothing to do with the Power, but on the edges of shadow, where light was becoming dark, a Myrddraal could suddenly be elsewhere, in another shadow far away. Long ago Aginor had tested over a hundred of them to destruction in a vain effort to learn how it was done. The Myrddraal themselves did not know; she herself had proved that.Bolding mine, of course.

The Unreasoner
08-27-2011, 05:59 AM
My theory still plays. I'm alleging that Myrdraal can use shadows as TP gateways. They cannot channel, but their inherent nature may permit them to pass through the hypothetical gateways anyway. "stepping in and out of the Pattern" could be functionally very similar to "jumping from shadow to shadow".

Skimming or Traveling, I do not know (though I suspect the latter). It seems plausible. And Asmo notes that the Power has little to do with gateways:
Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.

And I suspect that, at least in this respect, Traveling and Skimming gateways are similar. After all, Egwene figured out Travelling from properties of T'A'R.

So the Myrdraal have no need to channel: the shadows/gateways are already 'woven'

Zombie Sammael
08-27-2011, 06:07 AM
My theory still plays. I'm alleging that Myrdraal can use shadows as TP gateways. They cannot channel, but their inherent nature may permit them to pass through the hypothetical gateways anyway. "stepping in and out of the Pattern" could be functionally very similar to "jumping from shadow to shadow".

Skimming or Traveling, I do not know (though I suspect the latter). It seems plausible. And Asmo notes that the Power has little to do with gateways:


And I suspect that, at least in this respect, Traveling and Skimming gateways are similar. After all, Egwene figured out Travelling from properties of T'A'R.

So the Myrdraal have no need to channel: the shadows/gateways are already 'woven'

But True Power gateways are ripping a hole in the pattern, not stepping outside of it.

As an aside, I've always been a little confused on how this is different from the way males create gateways.

FelixPax
08-27-2011, 09:16 AM
And I suspect that, at least in this respect, Traveling and Skimming gateways are similar. After all, Egwene figured out Travelling from properties of T'A'R.

So the Myrdraal have no need to channel: the shadows/gateways are already 'woven'


Constructs cannot survive the use of Traveling gateways.
Myrddraal are constructs.
Trollocs are constructs.
Fact: Rand al'Thor used Traveling gateways to kill Trollocs, Myrddraals in 'Knife of Dreams' book.


Skimming and Traveling gateways have very important distinctions.


Myrddraal do not use Traveling gateways, to move around.

The only know mechanism available is Skimming, for Myrddraal. That's what they do, when they find an edge of a Shadow.


Myrddraal have some part of themselves tied to the Dark One, at all times. That is a reason why "The Creature" can't revive Myrddraal. 'The Creature' lives outside the World of Dreams completely, it has no ties to either the Creator or Dark One. The Creature lives only in a World of Flesh found on Earth.

Only Gray Men and Myrddraal are denied dreams. Even Trollocs can dream.

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 36 "Daughter of the Night" -- Perrin point of view; Mierin/Moonhunter/Lanfear speaking

It's as if, Myrddraal are native to the Dark One's own World, not the Creator's World nor the Third Constant. Cutting a Myrddraal's Black Cords to the Dark One, kills it.

FelixPax
08-27-2011, 10:32 AM
Souls exist outside the Pattern and are woven into the Pattern.

What particular definition of "Pattern" are you using again?



Granted Moghedien's give a clue, that Souls are Stars:


Moghedien smiled and took a step nearer. “ . . . travel to other worlds, even worlds in the sky. Do you know that the stars are . . . ” So sure, that smile. So triumphant.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 54 "Into the Palace" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view; with Moghedien speaking

Stars are Robert Jordan's version of Gods.

Birgitte is one of those Gods, and Star's: The Archer.

Yet Birgitte is part of the Pattern, not separate from it. Birgitte is a part of the Third Constant.


The only Being outside the Pattern (I know of) per se now, is Padan Fain Mordeth as 'The Creature'. He's untied from the Dark One, the Creator, the Third Constant. Yet 'The Creature' has possesses no Soul.

GonzoTheGreat
08-27-2011, 10:53 AM
The only know mechanism available is Skimming, for Myrddraal. That's what they do, when they find an edge of a Shadow.Then why did Aginor fail to figure this out, even though he had a whole lot of advantages (such as actually being able to do actual experiments) over you?

FelixPax
08-27-2011, 12:36 PM
Something occurred to me, so I will post it (even though it is Loony :))

Brandon introduced the concept of a reset button: Hinderstap.

Hinderstap is a limited example of Earth's World of Dreams merging with Earth's World of Flesh.

In Hinderstap, Flesh and Dreams existed as one and the same. Hinderstap has become a Parallel World, within the town's limits. This is why suicide will not work, in Hinderstap. There literally is no separate World of Dreams for resident sleepers of Hinderstap.

Hinderstap sort is like that old song, "Hotel California".

Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back
To the place I was before
’relax,’ said the night man,
We are programmed to receive.
You can checkout any time you like,
But you can never leave!


This bizarre phenomena is another reason why Matrim Cauthon's Power-wrought Cuendillar Raven Spear could be damaged in 'Towers of Midnight' book. In places which have become like a Parallel World, Cuendillar can be damaged or destroyed.



I am still not convinced balefiring Rand would reset the entire pattern back a bit. There could be some other mechanism. Maybe Rand flies around the world turning time back.

Anyway, we one could consider Hinderstap as a foreshadowing of a reset, allowing dawn to occur twice.

Agreed, Balefire is a weak mechanism. If Balefire could reset the Pattern... Rand would have already bought Osan'gar back to life, when he Balefired Elza Penfell in TGS Book.

Separately in Towers of Midnight book, Perrin showed reader's Balefire cannot stand up to a person's Dreams or Thoughts.


Balefire is one of RJ's distractors.

The Unreasoner
08-27-2011, 04:41 PM
Felix:distractor::Terez:red herring?

And skimming doesn't explain the apparent speed.

Could it be the case that Myrdraal can pass through gateways? But they do so without knowing how, and can only survive these hypothetical, unwoven, shadow based ones?

TP gateways for travelling: no turning/cutting, undetectable, and maybe a way to frame Shaidar Haran's abilities.

Zombie Sammael
08-27-2011, 05:00 PM
Felix:distractor::Terez:red herring?

And skimming doesn't explain the apparent speed.

Could it be the case that Myrdraal can pass through gateways? But they do so without knowing how, and can only survive these hypothetical, unwoven, shadow based ones?

TP gateways for travelling: no turning/cutting, undetectable, and maybe a way to frame Shaidar Haran's abilities.

I can think of one major problem with this idea: when Mazrim Taim and Moridin use the True Power, we know that they are surrounded by darkness visibly to some extent (I'm too lazy to find a quote from the books right now but if someone really needs it I'm sure they'll let me know). But Myrddraal do not create darkness when they "fade", they disappear into an existing area of shadow. Either the suggestion must be that the effect when they channel the TP is different, or they must not be channelling.

A couple of interview quotes (they're easier to find) that back up my thoughts on this issue:

Matt: Ok, so, what is then the nature of the Dark One’s relationship with the True Power? In other words...is he the Power or it is separate like the One Power?
Brandon: When people bored into his prison they were searching for a new source of power, they found him. Alright? Now, that leaves a strong implication that the True Power is the essence of the Dark One.

Now, that seems to back up the "Channelfade" (as I dub it) theory, but:

Q: (paraphrased) Is the DO pure TP? Why does the Creator ignore Randland except to talk to Rand at the end of TEotW?
RJ: No, the Dark One is not pure True Power. Who says the Creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind? And I will neither confirm nor deny that the Creator spoke to Rand.

RJ: The taint and the True Power are both manifestations of the Dark One -- they are the same substance, but those who access it are not destroyed in the same way.

So we know there are multiple manifestations of the DO's Power. We also know the TP was involved in the creation of Trollocs, and thus Myrdraal. I would suggest, putting the above together, that the Myrdraal are drawing upon the power of the Dark One in some way when they "fade" in shadow, or disappear upon turning sideways, but not channelling the True Power, as Moridin and maybe Taim do. Also:

Question: Can a person who cannot channel the One Power, can they use the True Source of the Dark One?
Jordan: No.

Myrddraal are not Trollocs who can channel. Their powers are totally independent from the One Power.

I think that kills that one dead. Sorry.

The Unreasoner
08-27-2011, 05:10 PM
when Mazrim Taim and Moridin use the True Power
CONJECTURE!




In all seriousness, I didn't really mean the Myrdraal were channeling. What I did mean, I'm not quite sure. Definitely not that, though.

I'm trying out some different ideas: this Myrdraal theory really encapsulates them.

Essentially what I am arguing is that if there were some way to get real info on the mechanics of shadowhopping, it would appear very similar to TP traveling, if not indistinguishable.

Zombie Sammael
08-27-2011, 06:04 PM
CONJECTURE!




In all seriousness, I didn't really mean the Myrdraal were channeling. What I did mean, I'm not quite sure. Definitely not that, though.

I'm trying out some different ideas: this Myrdraal theory really encapsulates them.

Essentially what I am arguing is that if there were some way to get real info on the mechanics of shadowhopping, it would appear very similar to TP traveling, if not indistinguishable.

It would probably be not outside the realms of reason (heh) to suppose that when Myrddraal travel it entails tearing a hole in the pattern in a similar manner to TP travelling - other than that Aginor was unable to figure it out, and he clearly had access to the True Power, and presumably would have known how TP travelling worked.

I support the theory that Mazrim Taim can channel the True Power.

FelixPax
08-27-2011, 08:26 PM
Felix:distractor::Terez:red herring?

And skimming doesn't explain the apparent speed.


I cannot recall one single example of Myrddraal nor Shaidar Haran moving end to end, from one point to another point. Difficult to gauge apparent speed when one only sees them disappear. Reader's need more information, to deduce how speedy Myrddraal move via an edge of a Shadow.


Unless Brandon and Robert Jordan come up with another mechanism to move Myrddraal & Shaidar Haran by, reader's are left with Skimming as one possibility. Do you know of another?


At least with another WoT big mystery, Demandred's plans, reader's have multiple other data points to work with. (See Matrim Cauthon's Eelfinn given memories; Sammael's comments; Lan's comments about Trollocs; quietness along Tarabon-Amadicia borderline to Shadow Coast Mountains (Galad PoV); Morgase's 'Southern Gate' question; among many others.)


Could it be the case that Myrdraal can pass through gateways? But they do so without knowing how, and can only survive these hypothetical, unwoven, shadow based ones?

If by Gateway, you mean a Traveling gateway? No. If by Gateway, you mean a Skimming method? Yes.

Myrddraal are to Trollocs, what Mules are to Horses: sterile. Constructs, like Myrddraal and Trollocs, cannot survive the use of Traveling gateways.


Separately Trollocs and Myrddraal can survive moving by Portal Stone. At least two examples have been shown of this, first in TEOTW book in a Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, then second in ToM book in a Perrin Aybara point of view.

The Unreasoner
08-28-2011, 02:16 AM
If by Gateway, you mean a Traveling gateway? No. If by Gateway, you mean a Skimming method? Yes.
A gateway is just the means to enter the skimming space, or to Travel. I'm saying that the Myrddraal do a sort of gatewayless True Power travelling. I am claiming that the 'space between' true power gateways is fundamentally different than the 'space between' normal travelling gateways. Stepping out of the Pattern (and Reality) sounds similar to 'slightly out of phase with time and reality'. Unmoving cloaks further the point. What if, in shadow, they are completely out of phase with time and reality?
Myrddraal are to Trollocs, what Mules are to Horses: sterile. Constructs, like Myrddraal and Trollocs, cannot survive the use of Traveling gateways.
They're not sterile:
the Myrdraal isn't sterile, but its sperm kills both human and Trolloc ova
Separately Trollocs and Myrddraal can survive moving by Portal Stone. At least two examples have been shown of this, first in TEOTW book in a Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, then second in ToM book in a Perrin Aybara point of view.
The sterility thing is interesting, but unrelated to the constructs and gateways point. If you remember, I argued that the gholam were constructs based on this very fact.

One interesting point I did not originally consider:
Why are deathgates travelling gateways and not skimming ones? I assumed it was just inefficient planning, as travelling gateways could cause a great deal of accidental damage, but what if the skimming gateways don't kill shadowspawn? I doubt it. But who knows?

FelixPax
08-28-2011, 07:20 AM
A gateway is just the means to enter the skimming space, or to Travel. I'm saying that the Myrddraal do a sort of gatewayless True Power travelling. I am claiming that the 'space between' true power gateways is fundamentally different than the 'space between' normal travelling gateways. Stepping out of the Pattern (and Reality) sounds similar to 'slightly out of phase with time and reality'. Unmoving cloaks further the point. What if, in shadow, they are completely out of phase with time and reality?

Considering Birgitte once claimed 'All Time' exists in the World of Dreams, to the heroes at Falme; the same likely exists for the Myrddraal, considering their tied to the Dark One's Constant.


Myrddraal do not seem to be a species, from this Mirror World called Earth. They operate according to different rules.

Hmm... where do Trolloc's do it at?

They're not sterile:

Myrddraal's do not reproduce by themselves. Myrddraal are screwed up Trolloc throwbacks, according to Robert Jordan.

Creatures like Mules can be sterile, yet retain and produce sperm. Ditto for Myrddraal.


Myrddraal have the equipment, just the messed up sperm. Moghedien, Graendal unfortunately know Shaidar Haran is able and willing....

The Unreasoner
08-28-2011, 04:25 PM
Hmm... where do Trolloc's do it at?

Well, I am working under the assumption that Myddraal aren't just deformed Trollocs, but a different creature altogether.

I think you could further your Myrdraal-skimming theory with the point I raised about Deathgates.