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Terez
08-20-2011, 06:10 PM
A DM person asked me to give some thoughts on her next blog post on this subject, so I was giving her my rundown of the Mordred thing because she had a theory that Narishma, Alivia, and someone else would use Callandor to go after Dark Rand (who is still lurking, thanks to the link with Moridin and the merge foreseen by Min).

Basically, I think Gawyn will attempt to go after Dark Rand using the Bloodrings (and maybe a friend or two), and that he will manage to mortally wound Rand (perhaps before Rand kills him - we will see). For a moment, the world will hang in the balance, because if Rand dies by any other means than balefire, then the Dark One will have his soul.

Then, Moiraine will show up and balefire him and save the world. I came up with this idea before TOM, but the problem was that Moiraine's strongest balefire was only enough to remove a few seconds from the Pattern, and RJ indicated that the Dark One could still retrieve a soul if the balefire was weak enough. This didn't make sense to a lot of people, but nevertheless RJ said it, and it was a loophole in the theory. However, Moiraine returned, and with the angreal, she's stronger than she was before (despite actually being much weaker). Callandor could also do the trick. I still have to think on that particular detail.

So, that led me to 'twice dawns the day'. I was explaining that, though I think Dragonmount will erupt when Rand dies, since he is one with the land, I don't think that RJ would have stretched the meaning of the word 'dawn' quite so much as to refer to clearing the smoke of Dragonmount's eruption with the Power. Then I brought up the balefire thing, and I told her the same thing I've always told others when they bring it up - what would you have to balefire to make the earth's rotation reverse?

Then it occurred to me that balefiring Rand might actually do the trick, since he is one with the land. Balefiring him really strong - like with Callandor - could revert everything in the world to the point before he merged with Moridin, or the point before his dumb ass broke the seals. And thus Moiraine saves the day.

I know some people are going to react to this idea with something like deus ex machina, but I think it's worth noting that the twice-dawning day is really just a minor detail in the scheme of things. We've been trying to figure out what it means for years, but this is the first idea I've seen or come up with that I think fits RJ's logic. I don't think he would use 'dawn' if he didn't mean the sun rising, and I don't think he would say 'twice dawns the day' if he was referring to two different days. Thus, the earth's rotation has to revert to before dawn. The only logical way to make that happen is balefire, and the only possible explanation for that is the 'Dragon is one with the land' thing. And it fits - with everything, really.

Edit - The quotes that led me to thinking this way (keep in mind I think her questions to the 'Finns were along these lines):

TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 13 - Choices

"A few days respite, and you are ready to give up." Her calm, level voice contrasted sharply with her eyes. "A day or two of quiet, and already you have forgotten Winternight."

"We haven't forgotten," Perrin said. "It's just – " Still not raising her voice, the Aes Sedai treated him as she had the gleeman.

"Is that the way you all feel? You are all eager to run off to Illian and forget about Trollocs, and Halfmen, and Draghkar?" She ran her eyes over them – that stony glint playing against the everyday tone of voice made Rand uneasy – but she gave no one a chance to speak. "The Dark One is after you three, one or all, and if I let you go running off wherever you want to so, he will take you. Whatever the Dark One wants, I oppose, so hear this and know it true. Before I let the Dark One have you, I will destroy you myself."

It was her voice, so matter-of-fact, that convinced Rand. The Aes Sedai would do exactly what she said, if she thought it was necessary. He had a hard time sleeping that night, and he was not the only one. Even the gleeman did not begin snoring till long after the last coals died. For once, Moiraine offered no help.TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 41 - Old Friends, and New Threats

"What do you think to gain, for yourself or anyone else, by dying?" the Aes Sedai asked. Her voice was level, yet sharp. "If the Lord of the Grave has gained as much freedom to touch the Pattern as I fear, he can reach you dead more easily than alive, now. Dead, you can help no one, not the people who have helped you, not your friends and family back in the Two Rivers. The Shadow is falling over the world, and none of you can stop it dead."TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 33 - A Bath

"The viewings?"

She folded her arms and frowned up at him through her lashes. She chewed her lip and frowned at the door. She shook her head and muttered under her breath. At last she said, "There is only one, really. I was exaggerating. I saw you and another man. I couldn’t make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and... " Her mouth tightened worriedly, and she went on in a very small voice. "I don’t know what it means, Rand, except that one of you dies, and one doesn’t. I - Why are you grinning? This isn’t a joke, Rand. I do not know which of you dies."TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 35 - Into the Woods

A tiny stab of guilt made her shift her seat on the coverlet. She had not really lied when he asked what viewings she had kept back. Not really. What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone? He became bleak too easily as it was. She had to keep his spirits up, make him remember to laugh. And of course, there's the thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4409) (and poll (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4561)) I made after TOM came out about breaking the seals.

Terez
08-20-2011, 06:31 PM
Further thoughts:

The big question is how this would affect the people. Rand is one with the Land - does that mean that everyone's actions will revert? Or only his and the earth's actions? What about memories? Will people be able to remember what happened in those hours? It seems that they probably will be able to remember.

Another question is when the merge will happen. I would absolutely LOVE it if Rand woke up that way at Merrilor. I think this is part of the end of TOM that was moved to the beginning of AMOL (to avoid the cliffhanger, I think).

kielbasaj
08-21-2011, 03:52 AM
Surely Rand is so strongly Ta'veren that balefiring him could potentially unravel the Pattern? He's touched so much, that removing his thread from the Pattern too strongly would only accomplish what the DO is ultimately after.
However I can't offer an alternative, it is true that should he die another way, the DO can take his soul for Himself.

Also, it's rather mundane but couldn't 'twice dawns the day' merely mean seeing the dawn in say, Falme, then travelling to the Spine of the World and seeing it dawn again because of the distance?

Terez
08-21-2011, 04:00 AM
Surely Rand is so strongly Ta'veren that balefiring him could potentially unravel the Pattern?
Don't think so, mostly because I think it's necessary. It's a vague-enough area that RJ left himself a lot of room to play with. Balefiring will probably fix more than it screws up - and they still have to fix the Pattern anyway (which is probably what they'll be doing when they seal the Bore).

He's touched so much, that removing his thread from the Pattern too strongly would only accomplish what the DO is ultimately after.
Not if he's only balefired back a few hours.

Also, it's rather mundane but couldn't 'twice dawns the day' merely mean seeing the dawn in say, Falme, then travelling to the Spine of the World and seeing it dawn again because of the distance?
I really doubt it, since the fulfillment would only work for whoever was doing the Traveling.

kielbasaj
08-21-2011, 04:14 AM
Don't think so, mostly because I think it's necessary. It's a vague-enough area that RJ left himself a lot of room to play with. Balefiring will probably fix more than it screws up - and they still have to fix the Pattern anyway (which is probably what they'll be doing when they seal the Bore).


Not if he's only balefired back a few hours.


I really doubt it, since the fulfillment would only work for whoever was doing the Traveling.

He'd have to balefired a lot more powerfully to change the earth's rotation, it's not a normal case of balefiring to erase his presence or his acts alone, but rather that of the whole earth for a few hours. Even if he is tied to the land and the land to him, that's an insane amount of change, with an equal amount of force on the, let's face it, already worse for wear Pattern.

(edit)
Also, for him to bleed on the day that dawns twice, if he were to be balefired in order to create that day, he couldn't bleed twice on it, for he'd have been balefired. It surely couldn't mean that he'd bleed twice, then be balefired, because that could've happened at any time in the series.

Terez
08-21-2011, 04:24 AM
He'd have to balefired a lot more powerfully to change the earth's rotation
I think it's just a matter of time. In other words, he only has to be balefired enough so that his thread is burned back to before dawn. The connection to the land should take care of the rest.

Also, for him to bleed on the day that dawns twice, if he were to be balefired in order to create that day, he couldn't bleed twice on it, for he'd have been balefired.
He doesn't necessarily have to bleed twice on that day (no prophecies explicitly say any such thing). Just once. But if he does have to bleed twice on that day, then he'll likely be resurrected before it's over with. Not that he couldn't do it twice before he died.

kielbasaj
08-21-2011, 04:31 AM
I think it's just a matter of time. In other words, he only has to be balefired enough so that his thread is burned back to before dawn. The connection to the land should take care of the rest.

Sorry, I didn't make it clear before, I mentioned that even if it does occur that way because of his tie to the land, the amount of change in the Pattern is massive. You're only burning his thread with balefire, sure, but you are still removing a few hours from the whole of the Pattern when effectively turning back time.
Unless, of course, you're implying that it is merely reversing the earth's rotation without changing the course of time. I guess that could work, if indeed that's how it's to happen, but would it be instantaneous or would the earth actually change rotation, like rewinding a tape?

Terez
08-21-2011, 04:47 AM
Sorry, I didn't make it clear before, I mentioned that even if it does occur that way because of his tie to the land, the amount of change in the Pattern is massive. You're only burning his thread with balefire, sure, but you are still removing a few hours from the whole of the Pattern when effectively turning back time.
Not the whole Pattern. Just the actions of the planet itself (which are actually quite limited). Rand is one with the Land, not the Pattern. (Or Time, for that matter.)

Rand al'Fain
08-21-2011, 02:47 PM
Not the whole Pattern. Just the actions of the planet itself (which are actually quite limited). Rand is one with the Land, not the Pattern. (Or Time, for that matter.)
Rand may not be one with the pattern, but his importance to an already fraying pattern is probably the most commented on thing in the series. His tavern-ness is already a fate changer, all things considered. And balefiring him very well could throw the entire world out of whack (more than it currently is) and doom everyone. He just has way too many ties for anyone to even consider burning him out of the pattern, even for a short time.

And most of this theory rests on one of your older theories that I still disagree with, so the whole thing is basically a "no dice" for me.

Kimon
08-21-2011, 02:58 PM
Rand may not be one with the pattern, but his importance to an already fraying pattern is probably the most commented on thing in the series. His tavern-ness is already a fate changer, all things considered. And balefiring him very well could throw the entire world out of whack (more than it currently is) and doom everyone. He just has way too many ties for anyone to even consider burning him out of the pattern, even for a short time.

And most of this theory rests on one of your older theories that I still disagree with, so the whole thing is basically a "no dice" for me.

A world w/o beer?

Daekyras
08-21-2011, 05:10 PM
However I can't offer an alternative, it is true that should he die another way, the DO can take his soul for Himself.


Wait, is this true?

Cause wouldn't that mean that everytime rands soul had been spun out he'd died from balefire: like, every time.

The issue i would have with this is that we have seen lews therin die- not balefire. Also in the flash forward episodes of rands lives in the great hunt he seems to die many times by mundane means...

Rand al'Fain
08-21-2011, 05:27 PM
A world w/o beer?
Worse, no alcohol at all!

Terez
08-21-2011, 05:37 PM
And balefiring him very well could throw the entire world out of whack
That's speculation, and has no real basis in fact.

and most of this theory rests on one of your older theories that I still disagree with
Actually, it doesn't.

Terez
08-21-2011, 05:38 PM
Wait, is this true?

Cause wouldn't that mean that everytime rands soul had been spun out he'd died from balefire: like, every time.
Only when the Dark One is unconstrained enough to do something about it.

The issue i would have with this is that we have seen lews therin die- not balefire.
The Dark One was sealed up, if imperfectly.

Also in the flash forward episodes of rands lives in the great hunt he seems to die many times by mundane means...
And how else did those lives end? But the Dark One probably wouldn't be as interested in him if he weren't fulfilling his destiny.

Rand al'Fain
08-21-2011, 06:27 PM
That's speculation, and has no real basis in fact.
Considering what happened when Rand balefired that castle (the world "rippled" for a lack of a better term), when he balefired Rahvin it brought back Aviendha and Mat, and when he balefired those dark hounds it left Mat with only a rash that Moiriane was able to instead of losing his arm if not more.

And considering how unstable the Pattern is right now (you know, with the dead walking, extreme weather, ghost towns long dead appearing, buildings shifting within, and people going nuts, killing eachother, and then waking up with no memory of it the next morning), balefiring probably the most intertwined and important person in the world is not exactly the safest thing to do. The more powerful, the worse the "ripple."
Actually, it doesn't.
Actually, it does. Read below.

could revert everything in the world to the point before he merged with Moridin
I disagree with that premise still. Do I think they are connected? Obviously, with the occasional thought process being shared. But that's it.

FelixPax
08-21-2011, 06:28 PM
Surely Rand is so strongly Ta'veren that balefiring him could potentially unravel the Pattern?

I do not believe Balefire is going to be very effective against individuals who have walked in the Dream World, when Tar'mon Gai'don hits on Sunday. You've read what Perrin did to Egwene's balefire in the TAR, in the most recent WoT book. Nynaeve al'Meara did similar to Lightning, in her Accepted Test.

Moridin's own Balefire won't be effective either. One can't balefire oneself. Considering Moridin is connected to Rand al'Thor's soul, other methods outside of Balefire would be needed to attempt to kill Rand during Tar'mon Gai'don.

If Graendal's source of Balefire is through Moridin (ToM book), it's pretty much useless against Rand al'Thor too.

In any case, there's another vision by Min related to an Oynx hand/glove, implying Moridin is going to try something along the lines of Rahvin, to Rand, in AMoL book.

Rand and Moridin, Luc and Isam have very similar situations actually. Question is what'll be the outcome for Rand and Moridin's soul binding or merger? Failure for Moridin, in place of the relative success of the operation to merger Isam's soul to Luc's?



Also, it's rather mundane but couldn't 'twice dawns the day' merely mean seeing the dawn in say, Falme, then travelling to the Spine of the World and seeing it dawn again because of the distance?


My interpretation of 'twice dawns the days' is there, literally will be Light across Earth within a 24 hour period of time. Neither of which will be a natural Sun rise, because the whole Planet should be covered by a thick black & silver cloud layer by 'Sunday'.


(One question is will ta'veren eye walls remain functional on 'Sunday', outside of the Dragon's own possible eye wall? I do compare the Dragon to a Hurricane. Perhaps comparing the Dragon to Hurricane Hugo which hit Charleston, SC just before TEOTW book was released.)


One caused by Lightning, via Rand al'Thor calling Light down everywhere above ground from the Heavens. Cause? Saidar, Saidin.

One caused by Dreaming, via Valan Luca creating Light by thought and imagination, after the 'World of Dream' and 'World of Flesh' have fully become One in the same on Earth. (Yes, A Mirror World become a Parallel World on Sunday. Seals are broken, then Dark One comes to try to finish the job.)

In both cases, not a Shadow will exist when Dawn comes Twice on Earth.

Terez
08-21-2011, 06:32 PM
Considering what happened when Rand balefired that castle (the world "rippled" for a lack of a better term)
Hundreds of people, done with the Choedan Kal. And only a small blip.

Actually, it does.
No, it doesn't.

I disagree with that premise still.
No one cares.

FelixPax
08-21-2011, 06:44 PM
He doesn't necessarily have to bleed twice on that day (no prophecies explicitly say any such thing). Just once. But if he does have to bleed twice on that day, then he'll likely be resurrected before it's over with. Not that he couldn't do it twice before he died.

Two individuals will bleed on that day, the Plowman Rand al'Thor and the Dragon Valan Luca. :p


Even a runaway Apprentice Talaan din Gelyn knows how to read the Heavens, and taste the Waters. Windfinder's ain't called that for nothing! Read the Heavens, and one reads History.

FelixPax
08-21-2011, 06:55 PM
Considering what happened when Rand balefired that castle (the world "rippled" for a lack of a better term), when he balefired Rahvin it brought back Aviendha and Mat, and when he balefired those dark hounds it left Mat with only a rash that Moiriane was able to instead of losing his arm if not more.

Balefire is not likely the mechanism to bring back the Arad Domani Castle Rand destroyed in TGS book. Osan'gar wasn't bought back to life by Balefire either, when Rand balefired Elza Penfell (TGS book). Dreaming is most likely the mechanism.


Don't you recollect Nynaeve al'Meara creating a Crystal Palace by Dreaming it, in the TAR next to Elayne? Nynaeve al'Meara knows the trick, how to create Physical Structures by Dreaming them. Now put Nynaeve in a World, where thought creates reality....



And considering how unstable the Pattern is right now (you know, with the dead walking, extreme weather, ghost towns long dead appearing, buildings shifting within, and people going nuts, killing eachother, and then waking up with no memory of it the next morning), balefiring probably the most intertwined and important person in the world is not exactly the safest thing to do. The more powerful, the worse the "ripple."

Earth is unstable, partially because a Mirror World is transforming into a Parallel World. Change, it happens.

Rand al'Fain
08-21-2011, 09:08 PM
Hundreds of people, done with the Choedan Kal. And only a small blip. You mean a rather large "blip" that reverberated for quite some distance and shook a city full of people up. Otherwise you are downplaying it quite a bit.

No, it doesn't.Yes, it does. It is a key part to it.


No one cares.
And yet, I still disagree whether you care or not, because you're opinion is not mine, like it or not.

fdsaf3
08-21-2011, 09:17 PM
Can Terez or someone else point me in the direction of what Dark Rand is please?

Terez
08-22-2011, 12:12 AM
Can Terez or someone else point me in the direction of what Dark Rand is please?
Min had a viewing of Rand and Moridin merging. One of them dies, and the other doesn't, but she doesn't know which. Indications are that they are still merging. In other words, Rand warded his brain from the taint on Dragonmount, but Moridin is inside him, so he didn't take care of that problem. Some think he no longer experiences the sickness because he is always connected to the Power.

That could lead to a lot of scenarios, but I expect it will have something to do with breaking the seals.

finnssss
08-22-2011, 12:32 AM
Min had a viewing of Rand and Moridin merging. One of them dies, and the other doesn't, but she doesn't know which. Indications are that they are still merging. In other words, Rand warded his brain from the taint on Dragonmount, but Moridin is inside him, so he didn't take care of that problem. Some think he no longer experiences the sickness because he is always connected to the Power.

That could lead to a lot of scenarios, but I expect it will have something to do with breaking the seals.


To be fair though, Min didn't see Moridin specifically, she saw 2 men that she couldn't make out their faces but knew one was Rand, merge, one dies and one doesn't.

Terez is overstating that it's indeed Moridin. Some believe this has already happened with Rand and LTT on DM.

Moving on though, Terez, I thought you were all gung-ho on the body swap theory?
How does that co-exist with the merging/Dark Rand theory?

Terez
08-22-2011, 01:14 AM
To be fair though, Min didn't see Moridin specifically, she saw 2 men that she couldn't make out their faces but knew one was Rand, merge, one dies and one doesn't.

Terez is overstating that it's indeed Moridin. Some believe this has already happened with Rand and LTT on DM.
It's not overstating. It's simple logic, backed up by several connections in the books. The Lews Therin explanation makes no sense whatsoever. It's obviously the red herring explanation.

Moving on though, Terez, I thought you were all gung-ho on the body swap theory?
No.

FelixPax
08-22-2011, 02:11 AM
You mean a rather large "blip" that reverberated for quite some distance and shook a city full of people up. Otherwise you are downplaying it quite a bit.

Technically speaking, it DOES matter that Amys, Bair, Min, Cadsuane et la could feel the Balescream created by Rand al'Thor balefiring Graendal's pleasure palace (TGS book). Why?


Because Demandred is mostly likely going to gain access to the last remaining male Giant Sa'angreal. One Bayle Domon once described to Thom, Mat Cauthon and Rand al'Thor:

A mountain hollowed into a bowl, and in its center, a silver spike a hundred spans high, and any who comes within a mile of it, dies.

The Eye of the World, Chapter 24 "Flight Down the Arinelle" -- Rand pov


Queen Ethenielle Cosaru Noramaga also once describes this same Giant Sa'angreal in her thoughts in TPoD book.


Rand has also personally heard Balescreams coming from Stone in Aridhol during his fight against Sammael (Lord Brend) too. Thing is Rand did not know that name, Balescream, at the time. The Rand of ToM book should know that name, because of L.T.T's memories.

FelixPax
08-22-2011, 02:26 AM
In other words, Rand warded his brain from the taint on Dragonmount, but Moridin is inside him, so he didn't take care of that problem. Some think he no longer experiences the sickness because he is always connected to the Power.

Rand hasn't had to deal the Taint since fighting Asmodean at Rhuidean--at the latest. That's when Rand become One with the Black Cords. Rand's in with the Dark One.

Rand's current sickness is not the same, as what he suffered before. Rand's current sickness only began to occur since Ishamael was killed at the Stone. Between Ishamael soul's re-birth in a new body as Moridin, and early ACoS Chapters.

Wards did not protect the Asha'man from the Taint. Nor did Wards protect Rand from the Taint. In Rand's case, he ONLY LEARNED of Dream Wards AFTER gaining the Dark One's protection from the Taint.

Wards only protect a person from outside threats, not internal threats.

Rand's current sickness caused by Moridin, is an internal threat.


It's not as if Rand al'Thor didn't foreshadow to reader's the possibility of ASKING THE DARK ONE for help:

“What kind of need would be great enough that we’d want the Dragon to save us from it?” Rand mused. “As well ask for help from the Dark One.”

The Eye of the World, Chapter 3 "The Peddler" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Perrin, Matrim Cauthon

Daekyras
08-22-2011, 07:04 AM
Only when the Dark One is unconstrained enough to do something about it.
The Dark One was sealed up, if imperfectly.
And how else did those lives end? But the Dark One probably wouldn't be as interested in him if he weren't fulfilling his destiny.

thanks as always T. :)

i didn't realise the amount of freedom of the DO constrained his ability to take souls upon death. Is this mentioned in the interview archive? I always forget to check that awesome device!

As for your last point- i'm not sure i'd agree with that. I'd say the DO wants his hands on the dragon soul no matter what life he leads...

Crispin's Crispian
08-22-2011, 05:32 PM
Assuming one of the dawns is for the mourning of Rand's impending death?

Egwene's dream:
A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important that he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness.

Sadness = mourning, though the joy is a little confusing if Rand hasn't yet saved the world. Maybe the merge happens and everyone thinks Moridrand is actually the Dark One? Ick.

What's the birth, then? Somehow Rand is resurrected/ripped out of TAR/Horn-blown when the sun is coming up again? Or does the world turning backward frighten one of the moms into labor?

I don't know...if this is how it actually happens, I'm going to be thinking about the ridiculous ending to Superman the Movie and might actually cry.

Terez
08-22-2011, 06:56 PM
Birth of a new Age.

GonzoTheGreat
08-23-2011, 03:18 AM
Perhaps Rand will be reborn as the Dragon Reborn's son?
Elayne is gonna pop around that time, after all.

Terez
08-23-2011, 08:33 AM
She should have a few months to go unless something tragic happens.

Crispin's Crispian
08-23-2011, 11:08 AM
Birth of a new Age.
I suppose. That doesn't seem quite specific enough for my taste, but that's just my opinion. ;)

kielbasaj
08-23-2011, 12:04 PM
thanks as always T. :)

i didn't realise the amount of freedom of the DO constrained his ability to take souls upon death. Is this mentioned in the interview archive? I always forget to check that awesome device!

As for your last point- i'm not sure i'd agree with that. I'd say the DO wants his hands on the dragon soul no matter what life he leads...

I'm not sure if it is mentioned in any interviews, but by reading the books carefully you can safely figure out the DO's constraint on resurrecting souls. If he wasn't still imprisoned, he would likely have resurrected Aginor and Balthamel much sooner than he did.
At least that's how I know it :P.

Crispin's Crispian
08-23-2011, 01:38 PM
I'm not sure if it is mentioned in any interviews, but by reading the books carefully you can safely figure out the DO's constraint on resurrecting souls. If he wasn't still imprisoned, he would likely have resurrected Aginor and Balthamel much sooner than he did.
At least that's how I know it :P.

Not to mention the very quote from Moiraine that Terez quoted in the OP:

TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 41 - Old Friends, and New Threats

"What do you think to gain, for yourself or anyone else, by dying?" the Aes Sedai asked. Her voice was level, yet sharp. "If the Lord of the Grave has gained as much freedom to touch the Pattern as I fear, he can reach you dead more easily than alive, now. Dead, you can help no one, not the people who have helped you, not your friends and family back in the Two Rivers. The Shadow is falling over the world, and none of you can stop it dead."
Sure, it's her opinion, but hers is as good as anyone in the books aside from the Forsaken.

Gaidal Cain
08-23-2011, 01:52 PM
If you consider the whole sentence, there's another much simpler interpretation:

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.

That could easily mean that the day when his blood is shed happens twice, as in two separate days that involve his blood being shed.
(This meaning seems clear to me, but maybe it's a non-native speaker thing. Tell me if I'm wrong!)

At least it's much more obvious than balefire making the planet spin back through the Dragon's connection.

If Rand and LTT are one and the same in some senses, this could even mean that one of these days already dawned when LTT shed his own blood by killing his own family. That was a day for mourning if there ever was one.

The other one could be about Elayne's children.
Maybe Galad sacrificing himself to save Elayne and thus shedding the Dragon's blood.

Jmanidb
08-23-2011, 02:10 PM
Aviendha and will figure out time travel. And the Day dawns twice.

sleepinghour
08-23-2011, 02:49 PM
I'm not sure if it is mentioned in any interviews, but by reading the books carefully you can safely figure out the DO's constraint on resurrecting souls. If he wasn't still imprisoned, he would likely have resurrected Aginor and Balthamel much sooner than he did.
At least that's how I know it :P.

Who knows, maybe the DO just wasn't interested in resurrecting a Forsaken incompetent enough to get himself killed by a tree until the others started dropping like flies and he began to suffer a shortage of usable male Forsaken. Aginor and Balthamel were only resurrected after Rahvin had been balefired by Rand. Be'lal was also unavailable for transmigration and Asmodean no longer of any use to the DO at that point.

Since Rand's soul is already bound to the Horn and headed for T'A'R, the DO might not be able to get his soul anyway. I think Rand will probably still need to be balefired, though, if only to keep the DO from transmigrating Moridin's soul.

AbbeyRoad
08-23-2011, 03:58 PM
Terez, I think if your theory is true, then Alivia would be a much more likely candidate to be the one to balefire Rand. Not only is she much stronger, but Min foretold she would "help Rand die." She seems to fit the bill in your theory much better than Moiraine does.

Terez
08-23-2011, 07:06 PM
Terez, I think if your theory is true, then Alivia would be a much more likely candidate to be the one to balefire Rand.
Nope. Min said 'help', not 'kill'. No doubt the distinction is important. Besides, she's not a Mordred parallel, and if such a minor, insignificant character kills Rand, I will desecrate RJ's grave.

Terez
08-23-2011, 07:08 PM
If you consider the whole sentence, there's another much simpler interpretation:



That could easily mean that the day when his blood is shed happens twice, as in two separate days that involve his blood being shed.
(This meaning seems clear to me, but maybe it's a non-native speaker thing. Tell me if I'm wrong!)
I already did in the first post. It has to be the same day, or it's a bullshit prophecy. People have been trying to come up with 'simple' explanations for years. None of them cut it.

Isabel
08-23-2011, 11:32 PM
@terez: So if I understand your theory correctly than you predict a normal dawn and darkness caused by Rand being balefired?
How does that correlate with Dragonmount erupting? Wil it erupt after the second dawn?

Rand al'Fain
08-24-2011, 01:00 AM
If you consider the whole sentence, there's another much simpler interpretation:



That could easily mean that the day when his blood is shed happens twice, as in two separate days that involve his blood being shed.
(This meaning seems clear to me, but maybe it's a non-native speaker thing. Tell me if I'm wrong!)

At least it's much more obvious than balefire making the planet spin back through the Dragon's connection.

If Rand and LTT are one and the same in some senses, this could even mean that one of these days already dawned when LTT shed his own blood by killing his own family. That was a day for mourning if there ever was one.

The other one could be about Elayne's children.
Maybe Galad sacrificing himself to save Elayne and thus shedding the Dragon's blood.
And there is the whole Rising Sun emblem to the Children of the Light as well, and considering Galad became the Captain Commander of them, kind of gives a bit of credence to that.

Terez
08-24-2011, 03:59 AM
@terez: So if I understand your theory correctly than you predict a normal dawn and darkness caused by Rand being balefired?
Right. First a normal dawn, then Rand gets balefired, and because of the Fisher King thing, earth's rotation reverts to before dawn, and then dawn again.

How does that correlate with Dragonmount erupting? Wil it erupt after the second dawn?I'm thinking it will erupt as soon as Rand dies, and that the balefire won't affect it because it's a result of his disappearance more than anything else. This will be particularly confusing for those near enough Dragonmount to see the smoke; they might not realize anything funky happened with the sun itself, at first.

Crispin's Crispian
08-24-2011, 12:14 PM
Right. First a normal dawn, then Rand gets balefired, and because of the Fisher King thing, earth's rotation reverts to before dawn, and then dawn again.

Does this mean that if Rand dies the normal way, the earth stops rotating altogether?

the_collective
08-24-2011, 12:48 PM
Does this mean that if Rand dies the normal way, the earth stops rotating altogether?

HAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

So many reasons to laugh at this post!

Crispin's Crispian
08-24-2011, 02:21 PM
HAHAHAHAhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

So many reasons to laugh at this post!

It wasn't meant as a joke, actually. If he's really that tied to the land, this seems reasonable.


Or, wait...are you laughing at me, not with me? :(

the_collective
08-24-2011, 03:29 PM
It wasn't meant as a joke, actually. If he's really that tied to the land, this seems reasonable.


Or, wait...are you laughing at me, not with me? :(

Well, I certainly thought it was a joke, so my intention was to laugh with you, not at you.

Instead, it seems as though you'd raised your hand in class, then asked the teacher a perfectly legitimate question in earnest while I snickered aloud, alone in the back of the room; thus making an ass out of myself in front of the class.

Go Light.

kielbasaj
08-24-2011, 03:39 PM
Does this mean that if Rand dies the normal way, the earth stops rotating altogether?

If he doesn't sleep at night, does it stay day-time?

Crispin's Crispian
08-24-2011, 05:11 PM
Well, I certainly thought it was a joke, so my intention was to laugh with you, not at you.

Instead, it seems as though you'd raised your hand in class, then asked the teacher a perfectly legitimate question in earnest while I snickered aloud, alone in the back of the room; thus making an ass out of myself in front of the class.

Go Light.

Don't worry. I have a good sense of humor. I try to infuse it into actual discussions. ;)

Terez
08-24-2011, 09:17 PM
Does this mean that if Rand dies the normal way, the earth stops rotating altogether?
Why not?

GonzoTheGreat
08-25-2011, 04:47 AM
Why not?Well, it didn't stop when he died previously, neatly burying himself (in a somewhat ostentatious tomb, I'll admit).

FelixPax
08-25-2011, 05:05 AM
What's the birth, then? Somehow Rand is resurrected/ripped out of TAR/Horn-blown when the sun is coming up again? Or does the world turning backward frighten one of the moms into labor?


I suspect the re-birth of Rand, like the re-birth of the Earth, is not going to occur by Nynaeve or anyone else "ripping" individuals out of the TAR/Dream World.

Moghedien's trick will not continue to operate fully on Earth. Why?


Earth is toast. Rand al'Thor is dead, in this former Mirror World, is transforming into a Parallel World. Different World, Different Rules.

How is Rand al'Thor going to be re-born?

Dreaming it, in a space outside the World called 'Earth'. Dreamers have to create it, together.


Time, Space and reality are subject to those Dreamer's whims.

Zombie Sammael
08-25-2011, 05:09 AM
I think "twice dawns the day" probably refers to either an eclipse or the sun being blotted out by the eruption of Dragonmount, not Rand being Balefired. I doubt that Dark Rand is truly still "hanging around" given what Nynaeve saw in TOM. This is the closest I've ever seen Terez come to a loony theory.

Terez
08-25-2011, 05:21 AM
I think "twice dawns the day" probably refers to either an eclipse or the sun being blotted out by the eruption of Dragonmount, not Rand being Balefired. I doubt that Dark Rand is truly still "hanging around" given what Nynaeve saw in TOM. This is the closest I've ever seen Terez come to a loony theory.
lol. Nice try, but anything equating an eclipse or smoke in the sky to 'dawn' is loony. Dawn means the sun rising.

PS - Nynaeve saw that his brain was warded from the taint. That fixes the taint problem, but does nothing for the link with Moridin. They're unrelated.

Zombie Sammael
08-25-2011, 05:41 AM
lol. Nice try, but anything equating an eclipse or smoke in the sky to 'dawn' is loony. Dawn means the sun rising.

PS - Nynaeve saw that his brain was warded from the taint. That fixes the taint problem, but does nothing for the link with Moridin. They're unrelated.

I think you're applying the term "dawn" too literally. It's pretty clearly intended to be a parallel to the eclipse at the time of the crucifixion. Also, "dawn" doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as "sunrise"; formally, "dawn" is the period of twilight before sunrise, and a period of twilight could just as easily refer to the sun getting blotted out by something.

"Dark Rand", as I understand it, refers to Rand's behaviour up to his awakening on Dragonmount. This was pretty clearly a function of the Taint and his madness coupled with his stress levels prior to the event (which the Shadow intentionally played on to get him to checkmate himself), not to his link with Moridin. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Terez
08-25-2011, 05:46 AM
I think you're applying the term "dawn" too literally.
Of course you do. It's not convenient to your theories, so you write it off as being non-literal. But from a literary perspective, that's cheating.

Zombie Sammael
08-25-2011, 07:49 AM
Of course you do. It's not convenient to your theories, so you write it off as being non-literal. But from a literary perspective, that's cheating.

I then went on to say that actually it was possible you were misinterpreting the term "dawn" and gave an alternate definition for the word. You're the one arguing for a theory - I have a vague notion which disagrees with it. I'm not trying to prove anything.

Terez
08-25-2011, 07:54 AM
I then went on to say that actually it was possible you were misinterpreting the term "dawn" and gave an alternate definition for the word.
One you made up. The word 'dawn' implies sunrise, any way you cut it.

You're the one arguing for a theory - I have a vague notion which disagrees with it. I'm not trying to prove anything.
That's bullshit, actually. You're defending your opinion, same as me. Same rules. If you don't like it, then go away.

Zombie Sammael
08-25-2011, 08:17 AM
One you made up. The word 'dawn' implies sunrise, any way you cut it.

From Wikipedia:

Dawn is the time that marks the beginning of the twilight before sunrise.

From Dictionary.com:

dawn   [dawn] Show IPA
noun
1.
the first appearance of daylight in the morning: Dawn broke over the valley.
2.
the beginning or rise of anything; advent: the dawn of civilization.
verb (used without object)
3.
to begin to grow light in the morning: The day dawned with a cloudless sky.
4.
to begin to open or develop.
5.
to begin to be perceived (usually followed by on ): The idea dawned on him.

So as we can see, a sunrise is not really necessary for a number of different possible interpretations of the word "dawn".

That's bullshit, actually. You're defending your opinion, same as me. Same rules. If you don't like it, then go away.

Whatever.

The Unreasoner
08-25-2011, 08:37 AM
One you made up. The word 'dawn' implies sunrise, any way you cut it.
Or the beginning of a new age, a certain princedom, the first light to appear in darkness. But whatever.
That's bullshit, actually. You're defending your opinion, same as me. Same rules. If you don't like it, then go away.

What's with the fury level today? You make tons of claims all of the time, almost none proven, give debatable evidence, and then claim anyone who disagrees is an idiot or a noob or needs to read what you wrote again. And "Same rules"? Your method of posting doesn't even allow for the potential of honest debate.

For the record, I actually think many of your theories have a great deal of merit. I agree with many of them. But it is perhaps for this very reason that I get annoyed when you get so caught up with some lesser point that you let logic fly out the window.

I like this theory a lot. Although I like (of all people) Felix's quite a bit too, with the New World from the mind of the Dragon. But prophecies are metaphorical all of the time. And, they can be recorded wrong. I mean; blind man, the Amyrlin's anger... Broken Wolf...come on.

I do think you are looking for some things that really aren't there. As the last three books were intended to be one, is it not possible that some of this evidence is red herrings from the filler, and some points you dismiss as red herrings really not? Love the Dawn/balefire thing. Not sure what I think of this whole 'Dark Rand' bit. Definitely do not like the tone.

Terez
08-25-2011, 08:49 AM
From Wikipedia:

From Dictionary.com:
Which is specifically about sunrise.

So as we can see, a sunrise is not really necessary for a number of different possible interpretations of the word "dawn".
Yes, but all of the non-sunrise definitions are non-applicable to a day dawning. If you take the definitions about something beginning, or something new, then the day has to actually begin twice, and you are in an even worse situation than with the 'sunrise' meaning.

Whatever.
Fantastic argument there, champ. You don't get different rules, sorry.

Zombie Sammael
08-25-2011, 09:38 AM
Fantastic argument there, champ. You don't get different rules, sorry.

I was ignoring the part where you decided to be aggressive. That's become SOP with you for me, I'm afraid, because I don't want to have a falling out with you, but arguing with you increasingly feels like banging my head against a brick wall.

Terez
08-25-2011, 09:43 AM
I was ignoring the part where you decided to be aggressive. That's become SOP with you for me, I'm afraid, because I don't want to have a falling out with you, but arguing with you increasingly feels like banging my head against a brick wall.
Probably because you expect me to accept your bad logic. Once you stop that, it will probably get a lot less frustrating for you.

Tamyrlin
08-25-2011, 10:15 AM
What's with the fury level today?


That Terez is pissed at Zombie's:

This is the closest I've ever seen Terez come to a loony theory.

But I could be wrong, and Zombie and Terez are good friends, and the day just dawned twice.

The Unreasoner
08-25-2011, 10:20 AM
Some various relevant bits from mythology and religion. RJ never used a 1:1 mapping. Emphases mine:

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low… you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit. Those who see you will stare at you, and ponder over you: "Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who would not let his prisoners go home?
The Lucifer/Lews Therin and Dark Rand/conqueror Rand, as well as the destructive dragon
Mary Immaculate, Star of the Morning
Chosen before the creation began
Destined to bring, through the Light of your Dawning
Conquest of Satan(Shai’tan?), and rescue to Man...
The 'chosen to save the world', a reference to victory by the dawn.
Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli, "Lord of the Dawn"
One of the skybearers, Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli is a destructive aspect of the Morning Star — according to Aztec myth, the rays of the morning star are capable of harming certain classes of people as well as maize. One myth says that Quetzalcoatl was born from the ashes of Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli's funeral pyre, thus making Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli an incarnation of Quetzalcoatl.

The pyre, the necessary death, rebirth.

The Unreasoner
08-25-2011, 10:41 AM
That Terez is pissed at Zombie's:
[the 'loony' line']
...
Basically, I think Gawyn will attempt to go after Dark Rand using the Bloodrings

I think this is the 'loony' part. And no one should get offended at having a theory reasonably challenged. Gawain has done the whole Arthurian thing; and even if the bodies merge, what makes Terez so sure this is the method for Rand's death? I'm not even sure I think the so-called "Dark Rand" would exhibit "one with the land" properties if Rand is the 'one who dies'. And I see no evidence for Rand being 'turned' by the merging. Rand Sedai vs. Morridin (who I still think is planning to switch teams after experiencing the Epiphany)?

Love the balefire/Dragon bit. Love that it's Moiraine even more. Very symbolically and thematically appropriate.

But Dark Rand? No.

And if you were going to edit, you couldn't have gone with "Intuitively obvious to the most casual observer"?


EDITED TO ADD: Day dawned twice? Did I miss something?
RE-EDITED TO ADD: Oh nm

Tamyrlin
08-25-2011, 11:07 AM
And if you were going to edit, you couldn't have gone with "Intuitively obvious to the most casual observer"?


As that would have suggested it wasn't obvious...which it was. But when you wrote that I did have a moment of regret that I didn't at least think the connection. :)


I think this is the 'loony' part. And no one should get offended at having a theory reasonably challenged.


I don't see anything reasonably challenging the theory's merits in Zombie's post.

Zombie Sammael
08-25-2011, 11:15 AM
As that would have suggested it wasn't obvious...which it was. But when you wrote that I did have a moment of regret that I didn't at least think the connection. :)



I don't see anything reasonably challenging the theory's merits in Zombie's post.

The theory to some extent is hung upon Dark Rand still being around, and as I suggested in my first post, what Nynaeve saw with Rand suggests that he is not. I would suggest this is a challenge on the theory's merits - it's not a particularly good or well thought through one, granted - but there it is.

If you don't like the post I'll edit it - you're the boss.

The Unreasoner
08-25-2011, 11:28 AM
I don't see anything reasonably challenging the theory's merits in Zombie's post.

Whether Zombie adequately demonstrated 'looniness' is debatable. But the rhetoric of the thread seems to permit such language and hyperbolic arguments. My main criticism is the presentation, and the absolute structure. Zombie thought we saw the last of Dark Rand, he thought such a literal treatment of "Dawn" would be a mistake. I thought they were valid points. I am not sure how much weight this theory puts on those assumptions, but given that this is a thread, I thought raising such points would be appropriate.

Tamyrlin
08-25-2011, 11:36 AM
The theory to some extent is hung upon Dark Rand still being around, and as I suggested in my first post, what Nynaeve saw with Rand suggests that he is not. I would suggest this is a challenge on the theory's merits - it's not a particularly good or well thought through one, granted - but there it is.

If you don't like the post I'll edit it - you're the boss.

Your single sentence challenge seemed more like wanting to have an argument but wanting someone else to argue your argument's merit or lack thereof for you.

And why would you edit it? I was merely pointing out the obvious connection between Terez's attitude and your comment, because of the apparent shock on the part of Unreasoner.

Crispin's Crispian
08-25-2011, 11:40 AM
Which is specifically about sunrise.


Yes, but all of the non-sunrise definitions are non-applicable to a day dawning.

For the sake of pedantry, dawn and sunrise aren't always the same thing, T. That's the point ZS was making: dawn can specifically refer to the time of light just before sunrise. It's really irrelevant, though, to distinguish between those two.

Moreover, there are enough other dawn/sunrise references to support the idea that something about the actual day dawning is important. The two big ones are the Dragon's association as Lord of the Morning and He Who Comes With the Dawn.

But all that said, I have a problem with balefire causing the world to jump back before dawn based on Rand's rather tenuous "[tie] to the Land." That, IMO, is the weakest part of the theory.

GonzoTheGreat
08-25-2011, 11:42 AM
For the sake of pedantry, dawn and sunrise aren't always the same thing, T. That's the point ZS was making: dawn can specifically refer to the time of light just before sunrise. It's really irrelevant, though, to distinguish between those two.Not necessarily. If you're far enough up north (which Shayol Ghul may be), then at certain times of the year you could have dawn without actually having a sunrise.

Tamyrlin
08-25-2011, 11:44 AM
Whether Zombie adequately demonstrated 'looniness' is debatable.


No, he didn't demonstrate such, but I understand your desire to debate whether or not he did.


But the rhetoric of the thread seems to permit such language and hyperbolic arguments. My main criticism is the presentation, and the absolute structure. Zombie thought we saw the last of Dark Rand, he thought such a literal treatment of "Dawn" would be a mistake. I thought they were valid points. I am not sure how much weight this theory puts on those assumptions, but given that this is a thread, I thought raising such points would be appropriate.

I addressed the above in my last reply to Zombie. No one has a problem with raising legitimate counter ideas, although it gets a bit boring if points are raised without substantiating said points. Especially when such unsubstantiated points are followed by "your idea is loony" type commentary which would suggest that the purpose of the initial unsubstantiated point was merely an excuse to make the second.

Zombie Sammael
08-25-2011, 11:49 AM
No, he didn't demonstrate such, but I understand your desire to debate whether or not he did.



I addressed the above in my last reply to Zombie. No one has a problem with raising legitimate counter ideas, although it gets a bit boring if points are raised without substantiating said points. Especially when such unsubstantiated points are followed by "your idea is loony" type commentary which would suggest that the purpose of the initial unsubstantiated point was merely an excuse to make the second.

Honestly, I now want to remove or change the post, because it wasn't my intent to "start something", the loony thing was just intended as a throwaway comment, the same as Terez's usual "all your arguments are illogical". I am genuinely sorry if that did upset anyone, especially Terez, and I'm even more disappointed that it appears to have blown up into a thing.

I'm not out to prove anything by arguing with Terez, and as I've said many times I have every respect for her and the work that she's done on WOT and on these boards. That doesn't change the fact that I reserve the right to disagree with her, and when I do I tend to give as good as I get, as anyone arguing with her (or anyone else) on these boards does.

Tam, you are totally right that my comments weren't fully formed ideas; I posted first thing this morning before I'd had breakfast, let alone any caffeine. I guess it's up to you and your moderators what you want to do about it now.

Crispin's Crispian
08-25-2011, 11:52 AM
Not necessarily. If you're far enough up north (which Shayol Ghul may be), then at certain times of the year you could have dawn without actually having a sunrise.

Sure, but that's irrelevant to the idea of BFing Rand to get the dawn twice. It doesn't matter if the sun actually comes up or not the second time, so long as it is up long enough the first time for dawn to end, Rand to be BF'd, and dawn to happen again.

I was just thinking about this in relation to Joshua and his attacks on Canaan:

(12) Then Joshua spoke to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, "O sun, stand still at Gibeon, And O moon in the valley of Aijalon."
(13) So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. (14) There was no day like that before it or after it, when the LORD listened to the voice of a man; for the LORD fought for Israel.


Seems like a pretty obvious parallel. It's just that--a parallel--but it does lend literary credence to the idea of some planetary-level event (PLE').

Sei'taer
08-25-2011, 11:58 AM
Ok, I'm just trying to understand this, but if there is a "Dark Rand" How is Maoiraine strong enough to make balefire that will actually reverse the spin on Randland? I understand she has this new ring, but is it alone strong enough for that? Is Callandor even that strong? The twins were barely strong enough to clean the source and they are supposedly two of the most powerful sa'angreal ever made, and it destroyed them in the process. I don't think there is anyone on the lights side strong enough to make that kind of Balefire. It also seems like kind of a cop-out when the dawn could be the beginning of the new age.

I'm just not a fan of the Dark Rand theory or using something like Balefire to make a prophecy come true. If everyone thought the breaking was bad, then let's spin Randland backward a few hours and see what happens sounds really shitty. If you could do that, then why not just Balefire the source and be done with it? No source, no Rand that could menace the world, no problem. I mean, he's supposedly a badass but one man can only stand against many for a few seconds or minutes at the most. It also takes care of the dark forces, the Seanchan, and the Dark one all at the same time.

I'm with ZS on this one, it pushes too far.

kielbasaj
08-25-2011, 12:00 PM
I'm still confused about the Earth rotation reverse, would it be instantaneous (like Nynaeve's boat jumping back down river), would it actually stop, then start spinning the other way (throwing everyone into space), or what? Just wondering your thoughts on this Terez, or anyone else who wants to answer.

Also, since it was mentioned, if Rand is resurrected and pulled out of TAR, it wouldn't technically be Rand. It would be the Dragon, such as Birgitte was Birgitte as opposed to her previous life, she mentions herself she lives a different life under a different name everytime. Why would anyone want that?

Tamyrlin
08-25-2011, 12:01 PM
Tam, you are totally right that my comments weren't fully formed ideas; I posted first thing this morning before I'd had breakfast, let alone any caffeine. I guess it's up to you and your moderators what you want to do about it now.

Like I said. It seemed obvious why Terez got agitated since it seemed like the two thoughts were enmeshed. Let's move on with the conversation and the merits of Dark Rand.

As to the non fully formed ideas...I do it all of the time and so do others. I only brought it up in light of subsequent questions about the agitation. Feel free to bring up as many non fully formed ideas as you would like.

The Unreasoner
08-25-2011, 12:03 PM
because of the apparent shock on the part of Unreasoner.

"Shock" is a bit strong. It actually may be more of a timing issue than anything else. I came straight to the first page of this thread (Rand v. Terez) after perusing the rules one (Isabel v. Terez(which for the record, I'm on the side opposing the provability of the issue, but my belief is that Rand was nuts.)).

The balefire is interesting. I like the thematic appropriateness of having Moiraine do it. I don't seem to have the same reservations with the time/land/Dragon thing others do.

But why Dark Rand and Bloodknife assassins? Why not a mortal wound from Demandred or Fain? Or even Shaidar Haran? Creatures like those may have weapons that can damage the soul itself, and Moiraine could 'cauterize' it with balefire.

I am unsure how I see balefire in a thematic sense. Is it "perfectly ordered destruction of reason and reality?" If so, I would associate it with Morridin, and a generally negative thematic connotation. Is it "a simple weapon, a tool, with semi-significant consequences (like all weapons have)?" Because then I would associate it with Demandred and the Dragon Emperor Warlord (also negative). Or is it cauterization, sterlization, "a liquid light that banishes all shadows?" Can its thematic qualities be judged by its effects? Bringing Mat and Aviendha back to life? Major plus. But what if the vanishing villages are related to? Were Moiraine and Cadsuane right (for once)? "Not balefire. Not ever."

Of course, one recurring theme seems to be that the ends will have to justify the means: the riots in Samara for the ship, Rand protecting the gates of Cairhien, "take what you want, then pay for it", "others will pay for my mistakes." Maybe balefire just serves to drive this point home.

EDITED TO ADD:
Feel free to bring up as many non fully formed ideas as you would like.

*(We can always delete them later.)*

Crispin's Crispian
08-25-2011, 12:04 PM
I don't think there is anyone on the lights side strong enough to make that kind of Balefire.
Not if Rand gets balefired at 20 minutes after dawn. How far back did he send Rahvin in Caemlyn?

It also seems like kind of a cop-out when the dawn could be the beginning of the new age.Could be both?

I'm just not a fan of the Dark Rand theory or using something like Balefire to make a prophecy come true.
Good point. When Mat died and lived again, it was (arguably) via balefire, right? And the Ael'finn were able to see that future. But it seems like one of those paradoxes where balefire changes the very Pattern that is being read, so there's no way to predict that. ~shrug~

If everyone thought the breaking was bad, then let's spin Randland backward a few hours and see what happens sounds really shitty. Because it's not about time. Balefiring Rand doesn't turn back time, it only undoes the actions he performed. Terez's idea is that it also somehow undoes whatever magical force ties Rand's existence to the rotation of the earth. It's not about reversing time at all.

Crispin's Crispian
08-25-2011, 12:16 PM
I'm still confused about the Earth rotation reverse, would it be instantaneous (like Nynaeve's boat jumping back down river), would it actually stop, then start spinning the other way (throwing everyone into space), or what? Just wondering your thoughts on this Terez, or anyone else who wants to answer.

Can't speak for her, but as I see it the jump would be instantaneous. Just like Mat coming back to life. Although... That raises a good point. We didn't see how that worked, and IIRC it was just as if Mat never died and went on to fight the Trollocs. But that doesn't really compare to Rand having some sort of connection to the land that forces the world to rotate. Hmmm...

Also, since it was mentioned, if Rand is resurrected and pulled out of TAR, it wouldn't technically be Rand. It would be the Dragon, such as Birgitte was Birgitte as opposed to her previous life, she mentions herself she lives a different life under a different name everytime. Why would anyone want that?
Rand is already the Dragon.

The Unreasoner
08-25-2011, 12:17 PM
Because it's not about time. Balefiring Rand doesn't turn back time, it only undoes the actions he performed. Terez's idea is that it also somehow undoes whatever magical force ties Rand's existence to the rotation of the earth. It's not about reversing time at all.

This I did not know. I don't quite see how 'severing' such a connection is possible. And I'm not sure how it's relevant. For the purposes of establishing a "Dawn", time would have at least the effect of reversing (or reverting) in some instances.

And it would be a function of power either way. How long does a dawn/sunrise last? If he is only burned back 10 minutes, wouldn't that be the same dawn? Or is the theory that any interruption/continuation would constitute two dawns?

Zombie Sammael
08-25-2011, 12:23 PM
Because it's not about time. Balefiring Rand doesn't turn back time, it only undoes the actions he performed. Terez's idea is that it also somehow undoes whatever magical force ties Rand's existence to the rotation of the earth. It's not about reversing time at all.

And herein is another major problem: the Dragon is one with the land, not the Earth. Specifically, he appears to be one with the continental area described by the Aiel as "the Wetlands", although I'll admit we have no idea if unnatural summers, food spoilage, and villages disappearing are problems in Shara or Seanchan. Rand's new power seems to be making things grow; he can also sense the whereabouts of people and arguably may be able to sense Darkfriends. None of that ties him to the planet in a broader sense; the land is where the food grows that sustains the people, etc. It's the Dark One who has the broader power over the world, not Rand al'Thor.

Crispin's Crispian
08-25-2011, 12:26 PM
This I did not know. I don't quite see how 'severing' such a connection is possible. And I'm not sure how it's relevant. For the purposes of establishing a "Dawn", time would have at least the effect of reversing (or reverting) in some instances.

And it would be a function of power either way. How long does a dawn/sunrise last? If he is only burned back 10 minutes, wouldn't that be the same dawn? Or is the theory that any interruption/continuation would constitute two dawns?

Terez's theory says:

Important to note is that I'm not suggesting Rand has a link with Time itself. Time won't be reversed when he is balefired beyond the usual effects of balefire. Only the Earth's rotation will be reversed. It may be that rivers will also revert, but beyond that, I don't expect too many obvious effects from 'actions' of the Land being reversed (via Rand being balefired). An avalanche might reverse. Flowers might revert to buds. In other words - minor things. Even the movements of the people and animals on the surface of the planet shouldn't be affected, since those positions are always relative to the surface.This is really the key point I have a problem with. If he's not linked with time, how does the Earth's rotation reverse? It shouldn't reverse, it should be as if that dawn never happened. The world would immediately be thrown back into night (depending on the power), and (because Rand is dead) the rotation of the world would stop. It would not start again until he is resurrected, I presume.

I'm curious as to what people will be doing in the dark, while the world literally stops turning. Maybe they'll melt with one another. ;)

Crispin's Crispian
08-25-2011, 12:33 PM
And herein is another major problem: the Dragon is one with the land, not the Earth. Specifically, he appears to be one with the continental area described by the Aiel as "the Wetlands", although I'll admit we have no idea if unnatural summers, food spoilage, and villages disappearing are problems in Shara or Seanchan. Rand's new power seems to be making things grow; he can also sense the whereabouts of people and arguably may be able to sense Darkfriends. None of that ties him to the planet in a broader sense; the land is where the food grows that sustains the people, etc. It's the Dark One who has the broader power over the world, not Rand al'Thor.
Hmm... I see what you're saying, but this is a pretty weak counter-argument. If all Rand can do is make things grow, that hardly qualifies for being "one with the land."

Sei'taer
08-25-2011, 12:33 PM
Not if Rand gets balefired at 20 minutes after dawn. How far back did he send Rahvin in Caemlyn?

Could be both?.


He did it. Not Moiraine.


Good point. When Mat died and lived again, it was (arguably) via balefire, right? And the Ael'finn were able to see that future. But it seems like one of those paradoxes where balefire changes the very Pattern that is being read, so there's no way to predict that. ~shrug~

Again, who did that Balefiring?


Because it's not about time. Balefiring Rand doesn't turn back time, it only undoes the actions he performed. Terez's idea is that it also somehow undoes whatever magical force ties Rand's existence to the rotation of the earth. It's not about reversing time at all.

It is about time. The only way the sun can go away and return is if the sun moves back and starts over. Dawn and dusk and the rising of the moon are all times. Most people use the sun as a reference for it in randland and it's constantly used as a reference in our world. That's part of the reason there was sun worship and gods of the sun and such. It's all about time.

Something just doesn't seem right about it. Compared to some of Terez's other theories, this one just seems weak to me. I've got to go back and read the passages about Rahvin.

Tamyrlin
08-25-2011, 12:38 PM
Terez's theory says:
This is really the key point I have a problem with. If he's not linked with time, how does the Earth's rotation reverse? It shouldn't reverse, it should be as if that dawn never happened. The world would immediately be thrown back into night (depending on the power), and (because Rand is dead) the rotation of the world would stop. It would not start again until he is resurrected, I presume.


The earth's rotation wouldn't reverse, just it's position at the current time would revert to a previous moment in its rotation. A good comparison would be Lan/Moiraine on the boat (that is to say, I don't have the time to try to break that down and find the relevant quotes regarding that event.)

I do like the notion that the rotation of the earth might stop at that point...and maybe such a moment causes Dragonmount to erupt and the world to begin "breaking" until somehow Rand returns. Ugh...i can't believe I'm starting to talk myself into accepting Rand dying and returning from the dead unrelated to this specific theory.

Zombie Sammael
08-25-2011, 12:47 PM
Hmm... I see what you're saying, but this is a pretty weak counter-argument. If all Rand can do is make things grow, that hardly qualifies for being "one with the land."

I have no doubt that the connection goes deeper than that. In fact, the wound in Rand's side is comparable with Shayol Ghul*. That doesn't change the fact that Rand is one with the land rather than the world. The depth of that connection doesn't change the fundamental fact that his association is with the land, not the entire planet. If you're going to run with such a literal interpretation of "dawn", I would suggest you need to take the word "land" just as literally.

*which might open up some interesting ideas about Fain, come to think of it...

Tamyrlin
08-25-2011, 01:02 PM
I have no doubt that the connection goes deeper than that. In fact, the wound in Rand's side is comparable with Shayol Ghul*. That doesn't change the fact that Rand is one with the land rather than the world. The depth of that connection doesn't change the fundamental fact that his association is with the land, not the entire planet.

What distinction(s) are you using to disassociate land from entire planet? Are you saying the water wouldn't shift, because it is not land? Or that land doesn't include crust? Entire planet seems more generic, not more specific.

What are your arguments from the text that suggest Rand's connection only extends to something other than the "entire planet"?


If you're going to run with such a literal interpretation of "dawn", I would suggest you need to take the word "land" just as literally.

It doesn't logically flow that if you are examining a theory in consideration of a literal interpretation of one phrase, that every phrase you examine within that theory must be literal in its interpretation. As though Mat's hand must then be red if Mat is brought into the discussion of the theory.

Zombie Sammael
08-25-2011, 01:33 PM
What distinction(s) are you using to disassociate land from entire planet? Are you saying the water wouldn't shift, because it is not land? Or that land doesn't include crust? Entire planet seems more generic, not more specific.

Exactly - that's the problem. "Land" suggests the living portion of the land, especially in the light of Rand's ability to, as Crispin said, make things grow. Additionally, the ordinary usage of the word "land" is not to mean "planet".

What are your arguments from the text that suggest Rand's connection only extends to something other than the "entire planet"?

I cannot point to a specific quote or quotes, but the general importance of the Wetlands (and the Waste) as opposed to Seanchan or Shara or the Land of Madmen implies the the land with which the Dragon is one is that specific area of land. Additionally, we've seen Rand causing apple trees to grow and causing sunlight to shine on a cloudy day, but we've not seen anything which suggests quite such a deep and important connection to the entire planet.

And here's another argument: if Rand's connection was so deep as to mean the entire planet, wouldn't "land" in that context mean the entire universe, including all elements of the pattern? If it did, why would this cause only the one single planet to reverse through time? The bore exists everywhere at once, remember; presumably that "everywhere" means the entire universe if the bore is a cosmic event. On the other hand, it clearly has a geographical connection despite its cosmic nature; this suggests to me that the Dragon does as well. If the Dragon is also cosmically omnipresent, the Light alone knows what balefiring him might do.


It doesn't logically flow that if you are examining a theory in consideration of a literal interpretation of one phrase, that every phrase you examine within that theory must be literal in its interpretation. As though Mat's hand must then be red if Mat is brought into the discussion of the theory.

It does follow that to construct a logical argument you don't use a double standard in the creation of that argument. To suggest that "dawn" must mean literally "daybreak" within the context but that "land" can metaphorically mean "world" is at the very least disingenuous. If you were to bring Mat into the discussion, you could make a distinction based on the evidence clearly showing the Band of the Red Hand, but that wouldn't change the idea that it is inconsistent to interpret one phrase literally and another metaphorically without a rational reason for the distinction.

The Unreasoner
08-25-2011, 02:07 PM
To suggest that "dawn" must mean literally "daybreak" within the context but that "land" can metaphorically mean "world" is at the very least disingenuous.

I had a hard enough time wrapping my head around the 'one with the land' bit from the start. Applying geographic filters is beyond me. Look at my theories thread, I just put forward my best guess: one with the collective awareness of the world.

And anyway, we're against the literal translation, remember?

Although I suppose I am for logical consistency...

Zombie Sammael
08-25-2011, 02:14 PM
I had a hard enough time wrapping my head around the 'one with the land' bit from the start. Applying geographic filters is beyond me. Look at my theories thread, I just put forward my best guess: one with the collective awareness of the world.

He's either one with the land, specifically, in which case Terez's theory doesn't work, or he's one with the cosmos, generally, in which case Terez's theory doesn't work. My point, as you may have guessed, is that Terez's theory doesn't work; the notion that he might be one with just the planet but not the rest of the universe is illogical, and the notion that he might be one with a specific geographic parcel of land and therefore the entire planet is also illogical.

And anyway, we're against the literal translation, remember?

Although I suppose I am for logical consistency...

This is my point; that in fact you can't have it both ways. It must be one or the other, but unfortunately, if it's either, Terez's theory doesn't work. The more I think about it, the more I favour the "entire cosmos" explanation, but either way it's difficult to see how it can possibly be the case that balefiring Rand would cause just one single planet to reverse through time because of the link. I favour the broader interpretation of "dawn", and I suppose that means I am obliged to also favour the broader interpretation of "land", but as I think I've made clear, extending that only as far as planet doesn't make sense.

Crispin's Crispian
08-25-2011, 02:17 PM
Exactly - that's the problem. "Land" suggests the living portion of the land, especially in the light of Rand's ability to, as Crispin said, make things grow. Additionally, the ordinary usage of the word "land" is not to mean "planet".

Aside from Rand's new fecundity, why else does "Land" suggest only the living portion of the...uh...land. I can accept that "Land" may be metaphorical for something other than "entire planet," but the living portion doesn't really hold water.

And here's another argument: if Rand's connection was so deep as to mean the entire planet, wouldn't "land" in that context mean the entire universe, including all elements of the pattern? This may be a relevant point--why is Rand's connection limited to single planet only? I'm afraid we'll never get that answer. Why is the Dark One most able to be sensed at Shayol Ghul? Why was the savior of the universe born on this planet only?


It does follow that to construct a logical argument you don't use a double standard in the creation of that argument. To suggest that "dawn" must mean literally "daybreak" within the context but that "land" can metaphorically mean "world" is at the very least disingenuous. If you were to bring Mat into the discussion, you could make a distinction based on the evidence clearly showing the Band of the Red Hand, but that wouldn't change the idea that it is inconsistent to interpret one phrase literally and another metaphorically without a rational reason for the distinction.

It's not a double standard at all. Besides, as I've pointed out, "dawn" doesn't have to mean "daybreak" for this theory to still hold true. Whether it's the literal sunrise or the lightening time prior to that, the logic would still work. Moreover, these are different sections and translations of the prophecy, as far as we know, so it's not like they represent the same exact thing.

Finally, there is a ton of stuff in the prophecy associating the Dragon with the dawn and with the bringing of light. Just go here (http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/)and look. The Crossroads of Twilight have already been passed, and the world is just about to be engulfed in night-time. What ends the night-time? Dawn.

Crispin's Crispian
08-25-2011, 02:23 PM
I do like the notion that the rotation of the earth might stop at that point...and maybe such a moment causes Dragonmount to erupt and the world to begin "breaking" until somehow Rand returns.
That's a very interesting thought. I was thinking, "how could anything survive if the earth just stopped moving?" But really, I imagined it would mostly be magnetic and tectonic issues? I guess I should look that up. Maybe Gonzo can lend some insight into what immediately happens when a planet just stops rotating.

Tamyrlin
08-25-2011, 02:26 PM
Exactly - that's the problem. "Land" suggests the living portion of the land, especially in the light of Rand's ability to, as Crispin said, make things grow. Additionally, the ordinary usage of the word "land" is not to mean "planet".


Why are you thinking about the connections that have been established between Rand and the "Land" as prescriptive and not descriptive? We've learned more and more what this connection entails, but you are attempting to create barriers on how far those connections can extend without justification from the text do so.

What has Rand affected?
Simply meant to be the beginnings of a list. Here are a few we know for sure:

Weather/Seasons
Plant life/Growth

How is he affecting these things?
How exactly does Rand make things grow? What power/connection is required to make apples grow and mature within seconds? Is he affecting everything at a genetic level? What is required to make the sun shine where he travels? Is this something he is doing through the Wheel? It seems to me that the nature of his connection to the Pattern and this World is the very understanding we don't have quite figured out, but that it is undoubtedly a significant influence.

It's the lack of knowing exactly what Rand is doing and how he is doing it that confuses me about your statement:

but we've not seen anything which suggests quite such a deep and important connection to the entire planet.

What leads you to believe firmly that Rand is not connected in similar fashion to the entire planet? In other words, if he traveled to Shara, you don't believe the Sun would shine there? Or that he could make plants grow in Shara if he wanted to?

I cannot point to a specific quote or quotes, but the general importance of the Wetlands (and the Waste) as opposed to Seanchan or Shara or the Land of Madmen implies the the land with which the Dragon is one is that specific area of land.

Do we have any evidence that the other continents/nations of the world have not been affected by Rand's connection to the land?


And here's another argument: if Rand's connection was so deep as to mean the entire planet, wouldn't "land" in that context mean the entire universe, including all elements of the pattern?


Why would it naturally follow that if Rand's connection was to the entire Planet, then it must be the entire Universe? That question being asked, I think it is clear that Rand is connected in a significant way to the Pattern and that in that sense, it is simple to theorize that Rand is connected to everything the Pattern touches as some kind of Super Ta'veren. Some evidence of this can be seen in Perrin's visit to TAR and Rand's transcendent moment on Dragonmount affecting the Unseen World too.


If it did, why would this cause only the one single planet to reverse through time? The bore exists everywhere at once, remember; presumably that "everywhere" means the entire universe if the bore is a cosmic event. On the other hand, it clearly has a geographical connection despite its cosmic nature; this suggests to me that the Dragon does as well. If the Dragon is also cosmically omnipresent, the Light alone knows what balefiring him might do.

It would depend on us knowing the entirety of what One with the Land means to answers those questions definitively. But we don't have the exact definition. We can speculate as to him not being connected to it, or compare him to the Dark One's connection, but nothing definitive enough to make prescriptive arguments against the theory.


It does follow that to construct a logical argument you don't use a double standard in the creation of that argument. To suggest that "dawn" must mean literally "daybreak" within the context but that "land" can metaphorically mean "world" is at the very least disingenuous. If you were to bring Mat into the discussion, you could make a distinction based on the evidence clearly showing the Band of the Red Hand, but that wouldn't change the idea that it is inconsistent to interpret one phrase literally and another metaphorically without a rational reason for the distinction.

The theory is based on the hypothesis (as far as I understood it) that Dawn in this instance will be literal whether the end of night or the coming of light, and if so, how could that play out. It isn't based on a second hypothesis that Land must mean a specific and contained geographic area. If it were, then we could argue the merits of viewing Land in that specific literal context. There is nothing disingenuous about it.

Crispin's Crispian
08-25-2011, 02:28 PM
He's either one with the land, specifically, in which case Terez's theory doesn't work, or he's one with the cosmos, generally, in which case Terez's theory doesn't work. My point, as you may have guessed, is that Terez's theory doesn't work; the notion that he might be one with just the planet but not the rest of the universe is illogical, and the notion that he might be one with a specific geographic parcel of land and therefore the entire planet is also illogical.
Well there's nothing saying all the planets in the universe won't stop rotating. That very idea sounds hilarious, though. But the other alternative is that "land" is metaphorical and doesn't necessarily mean some discrete and specific thing. That is, the rotation of the planet would be included in it, but that's not the only limitation.


This is my point; that in fact you can't have it both ways. It must be one or the other, but unfortunately, if it's either, Terez's theory doesn't work. The more I think about it, the more I favour the "entire cosmos" explanation, but either way it's difficult to see how it can possibly be the case that balefiring Rand would cause just one single planet to reverse through time because of the link. I favour the broader interpretation of "dawn", and I suppose that means I am obliged to also favour the broader interpretation of "land", but as I think I've made clear, extending that only as far as planet doesn't make sense.
Eh, I think you're thinking too narrowly. There's no reason it can't be both a literal and a metaphorical dawn.

And please keep in mind, I tend to argue on specific points, so while I may disagree with you about some things, it doesn't mean I believe this theory is correct. I prefer the dialectic approach, but I only call it that when I'm feeling pretentious.

The Unreasoner
08-25-2011, 02:29 PM
\I can accept that "Land" may be metaphorical for something other than "entire planet," but the living portion doesn't really hold water.
I favor the living/conscious model:
Loial spoke as if he had not heard. “Everything is . . . linked, Rand. Whether it lives or not, whether it thinks or not, everything that is, fits together. The tree does not think, but it is part of the whole, and the whole has a—a feeling. I can’t explain any more than I can explain what being happy is, but . . . Rand, this land was glad for a weapon to be made. Glad!”

This may be a relevant point--why is Rand's connection limited to single planet only? I'm afraid we'll never get that answer. Why is the Dark One most able to be sensed at Shayol Ghul? Why was the savior of the universe born on this planet only?
Well, we assume he was only born on this planet. And the Dark One 'anchoring' himself to Shayol Ghul could be a function of sparse awarenesses, an idea bandied around TL a little while ago.
What ends the night-time? Dawn.
Well, twilight, then dawn. But with all of these gathering storms, who knows? I don't have enough money for a clock.

Crispin's Crispian
08-25-2011, 02:31 PM
Your Loial quote actually contradicts your argument. Living and non-living are all linked.

The Unreasoner
08-25-2011, 02:36 PM
Now we're just splitting hairs. The 'collective awareness of the living world' primarily directed by conscious, living, free-willed people.

The awareness is strongest with the presence of observers.

Crispin's Crispian
08-25-2011, 02:39 PM
What? Loial says living and non-living are all part of the whole, and the whole has a "feeling" he can't explain. Where are you getting this observer-created reality stuff? I mean, in terms of your argument?

The Unreasoner
08-25-2011, 02:49 PM
What? Loial says living and non-living are all part of the whole, and the whole has a "feeling" he can't explain. Where are you getting this observer-created reality stuff? I mean, in terms of your argument?


In the usual course I can find anyone who knows they are in the World of Dreams; there is a feel, like ripples spreading through the air from them. Or perhaps from their awareness; I do not know, really. I am a soldier, not a scholar.

I think all of the worlds are subsets of T'A'R. But even if you don't, the "belief and order give strength" line indicates T'A'R-like properties. And a more "aware" being contributes more belief and order than a rock or cactus.

I used the word alive: I think of it as alive. But perhaps I would have been more precise to say 'aware'.

The Unreasoner
08-25-2011, 02:58 PM
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/images/evo/bat_echolocation_225.gif

Sort of like echolocation...the collective awareness of the world defines the world. Humans have better awareness than cows, cows have more than grass, which has more than dust. Awareness is the echolocation.

And Rand post-epiphany has the most acute awareness of all. To the extent that he could flame-void integrate with the world and command it to his will.

Terez
08-25-2011, 03:02 PM
Ok, I'm just trying to understand this, but if there is a "Dark Rand" How is Maoiraine strong enough to make balefire that will actually reverse the spin on Randland?
Depending on how far past dawn it is, she might be strong enough to do it alone with her angreal...but if not, she can always use a circle.

Is Callandor even that strong?
Most definitely. We only have to burn Rand back a few hours probably, and that's not much more than Rahvin was burned back, and Rand only had the fat man. Moiraine could probably beat that with a circle.

I'm still confused about the Earth rotation reverse, would it be instantaneous (like Nynaeve's boat jumping back down river), would it actually stop, then start spinning the other way (throwing everyone into space), or what?
It would just be automatically in its previous pre-dawn position, just like Nynaeve's boat was automatically down the river.

Also, since it was mentioned, if Rand is resurrected and pulled out of TAR, it wouldn't technically be Rand.
Sure he would. Just because he remembers more past lives doesn't make him a different person - he's the same person with more memories.

The Unreasoner
08-25-2011, 03:17 PM
Sure he would. Just because he remembers more past lives doesn't make him a different person - he's the same person with more memories.

But the 'merge' could make him a different person. One lives, one dies. If Rand dies, I'm not really sure what could be done. Unless you think balefiring Moridin (whatever skin is 'final') would bring Rand back. Moridin is not one with the earth, whatever skin he happens to be wearing. But a regular balefire resurrection could work. But of course, no Dark Rand, no balefiring the 'one with the earth' property, no bloodknife/warders going after him.

Crispin's Crispian
08-25-2011, 03:39 PM
OK, I see what you're saying. Your quote from Loial still doesn't support that, but I appreciate the background to help explain your argument.

I'm not sure we have enough evidence to ascribe volition to the "oneness" at this point. I think Rand knows what his presence does, but I don't see evidence he controls it yet. Or maybe I just can't remember anything right now.

Weiramon
08-25-2011, 03:48 PM
Rand's new power seems to be making things grow; he can also sense the whereabouts of people and arguably may be able to sense Darkfriends.

Easy lad.

One loony theory at a time.

JOS
08-25-2011, 04:32 PM
Also, since it was mentioned, if Rand is resurrected and pulled out of TAR, it wouldn't technically be Rand.

Sure he would. Just because he remembers more past lives doesn't make him a different person - he's the same person with more memories.

I agree with Terez on this point. If I remember right, Brigette's last "offical trip" out of TAR was as Brigette, as in, Brigette is the most recent incarnation of her soul. The same would hold for Rand. He would appear in TAR after death as Rand, be called by the horn as Rand, and if he were "pulled" or "ripped" out of TAR he would be Rand (with enhanced memory).

How far back did Brigette remember prior to being ripped out of TAR? All past lives? How far back will Rand be able to remember when/if he dies? If it is all past lives, he will be quite well prepared to defeat the DO (remembering what he did at every confontation). Someone may need to talk to him before he gets ripped out of TAR, in case he forgets the older memories too fast.

Another issue, Gaidal was royally pissed with Brigette for breaking the "Hero" code of ethics. Seems to me the Dragon would be even more devoted such a code. How does this play into willingly getting thrown back into the pattern?

On a seperate, but related note: A second arrival of the Lord of the Morning in the same age could be interpereted as a day dawning twice.

JOS
08-25-2011, 04:36 PM
But the 'merge' could make him a different person. One lives, one dies. If Rand dies, I'm not really sure what could be done. Unless you think balefiring Moridin (whatever skin is 'final') would bring Rand back. Moridin is not one with the earth, whatever skin he happens to be wearing. But a regular balefire resurrection could work. But of course, no Dark Rand, no balefiring the 'one with the earth' property, no bloodknife/warders going after him.

Even Slayer still seems to have two seperate souls, I don't think the merge destroys the Dragon soul or the Ishmael soul. Stuck in the same body with only one soul driving at a time is more likely ... like what Rand thought was happening with the LTT construct in his head.

Edit: Can't seem to spell.

kielbasaj
08-25-2011, 04:58 PM
An interesting (and simpler) way of looking at 'twice dawns the day' would be taking it to mean two different days. I believe this has already been mentioned and was thrown away by Terez, but I just had a quick thought.
"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed, once for mourning, once for birth."
If it is two different days, then the first day has already happened. When Rand left Rhuidean at dawn. He emerged bleeding quite a bit. Once for mourning? He lived out some pretty sad moments in his ancestors lives not too long ago.

Zombie Sammael
08-25-2011, 05:31 PM
An interesting (and simpler) way of looking at 'twice dawns the day' would be taking it to mean two different days. I believe this has already been mentioned and was thrown away by Terez, but I just had a quick thought.
"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed, once for mourning, once for birth."
If it is two different days, then the first day has already happened. When Rand left Rhuidean at dawn. He emerged bleeding quite a bit. Once for mourning? He lived out some pretty sad moments in his ancestors lives not too long ago.

Although I would agree that many of the prophecies about Rand living and dying can be explained in a similar, simpler, manner, the language used here is rather explicit, regardless of your view on what "dawn" means. It has to be the same day twice.

kielbasaj
08-25-2011, 05:49 PM
Although I would agree that many of the prophecies about Rand living and dying can be explained in a similar, simpler, manner, the language used here is rather explicit, regardless of your view on what "dawn" means. It has to be the same day twice.

I haven't changed the meaning of "dawn" here. I'm saying that depending on how you read the words, different meanings are taken. I'm using "dawn" exactly as anyone else is. Beginning of a day, sunrise, twilight etc.
There's no reason it has to be the same day twice. Why is that explicit? I gave that short bit about Rhuidean merely as an example, I'm not claiming that's what'll be, but it makes more sense than moving the Earth.
"Twice dawns the day" alone says that it will be on the same day, but when used with the rest of it's sentence in the propechy, "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed", it means something entirely different. That he will bleed on two different days. When the sentence is used as a whole, "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed, once for mourning, once for birth." it shows that not only will he bleed on two different days, they are both significant events themselves.
This sentence from the prophecy shouldn't be wholly disregarded to make it fit into a Superman-esque ending, built on a rather shaky assumption that Rand's connection to the land will save the day when he's balefired, rather than rip the Pattern apart.

Crispin's Crispian
08-25-2011, 06:25 PM
I agree with kielbasaj, insofar as the language doesn't preclude two different days. It's a little awkward, but I don't think the language is that restrictive.

And just for S&Gs, I found this article to be pretty interesting:

Eclipse Made 'Day Dawn Twice' in China : NASA Scientist Solves Ancient Riddle (http://articles.latimes.com/1987-01-25/local/me-5800_1_earth-and-moon)

Eclipse Made 'Day Dawn Twice' in China : NASA Scientist Solves Ancient Riddle
January 25, 1987|LEE SIEGEL | Associated Press

A NASA astronomer solved a Chinese riddle about the time "the day dawned twice" because of a solar eclipse, placing a date on a king's reign and learning how much faster the Earth turned in 899 BC.

The discovery that a day on Earth was 43-thousandths of a second shorter in 899 BC than it is today "doesn't change the price of tea in China, but it's something of scientific interest," said Kevin D. Pang, who presented his study at the annual meeting of the American Astronomical Society.

The finding is based on a study of ancient Chinese chronicles by Pang of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Jet Propulsion Laboratory; physicist Kevin C. Yau of the University of Durham, England, and Hung-hsiang Chou of the East Asian languages and cultures department at UCLA.

The chronicles, called the Bamboo Annals because they were written on bamboo strips, recorded "all important events from the earliest in China down to about 299 BC," Pang said. "It was probably passed down through the ages and was constantly updated by the (royal) court chroniclers."

One passage in the annals says, "In the spring of the first year of the reign of King I of the Western Zhou dynasty, the day dawned twice at a place called Zheng," which is near the present-day Hua District in Shaanxi Province.

Pang and his colleagues performed a computer simulation of the history of the rotation of the Earth around the sun and of the moon around the Earth, determining that the annals must have referred to an eclipse of the sun by the moon shortly after dawn on April 21, 899 BC.

"We solved the riddle of an ancient text, which is of historical interest because it puts an exact date (year) on the beginning of the king's reign, which wasn't known until now," Pang said.

By calculating the positions of the sun, Earth and moon during the eclipse, Pang also was able to determine that the Earth revolved 43 milliseconds faster in 899 BC than it does now, meaning that days were that much shorter then.

"It's generally known that the Earth has been spinning ever slower from at least 4 billion years ago," Pang said, adding that before his study, the exact rotation rate was known only as far back as 700 BC.

The day dawned twice on April 21, 899 BC, because the real dawn was interrupted by the solar eclipse just before the sun rose.

The Bamboo Annals ended in 299 BC, when the bamboo strips were buried with King Hsiang of the Wei Kingdom. Pang said that saved them from destruction by a later ruler, Chin Shi Huang Ti, who helped build China's Great Wall and army of terra cotta figures, and burned all the books he could find.

Grave robbers opened Hsiang's tomb in AD 281, stealing jewels and other valuables but leaving the annals behind for study by "the most eminent scholars of the Pu Dynasty" and subsequent researchers, Pang said.

So there is a "historical" basis for the eclipse theory, and interestingly also plays on the "new age" idea. A little, anyway.

FelixPax
08-25-2011, 07:04 PM
That's bullshit, actually. You're defending your opinion, same as me. Same rules. If you don't like it, then go away.

Best to simply ignore Terez's house of cards theories about 'Twice Dawns the Day' or the 'Battle of Caemlyn'. Why?

She just misses too many important details about world changes and characters changes. Her theories are worth a letter grade of a C-

Terez
08-25-2011, 08:08 PM
I only worry when you like my theories, Felix.

FelixPax
08-26-2011, 08:13 AM
I only worry when you like my theories, Felix.

Well, we do not disagree about every fact or theory. Just your loony theories. ;)

Sei'taer
08-26-2011, 08:18 AM
Depending on how far past dawn it is, she might be strong enough to do it alone with her angreal...but if not, she can always use a circle.


Most definitely. We only have to burn Rand back a few hours probably, and that's not much more than Rahvin was burned back, and Rand only had the fat man. Moiraine could probably beat that with a circle.


It would just be automatically in its previous pre-dawn position, just like Nynaeve's boat was automatically down the river.

Ok, I see where you're coming from (still don't like the Dark Rand part lol). Out of curiosity, how will people know it dawned twice if everything just reverts back? This isn't going to be the kind of blast that only affects one area, the whole entire world is going to be influenced. Is it enough for it to happen according to prophecy if nobody really knows it happens?

Sei'taer
08-26-2011, 08:19 AM
Best to simply ignore Terez's house of cards theories about 'Twice Dawns the Day' or the 'Battle of Caemlyn'. Why?

She just misses too many important details about world changes and characters changes. Her theories are worth a letter grade of a C-

So Terez makes better grades than you? Interesting.

Terez
08-26-2011, 10:31 AM
Ok, I see where you're coming from (still don't like the Dark Rand part lol). Out of curiosity, how will people know it dawned twice if everything just reverts back? This isn't going to be the kind of blast that only affects one area, the whole entire world is going to be influenced. Is it enough for it to happen according to prophecy if nobody really knows it happens?
People aren't going to forget. Only the rotation will revert; not everything that happened on the planet in the meantime. Rand is one with the Land, not the People.

Crispin's Crispian
08-26-2011, 10:54 AM
People aren't going to forget. Only the rotation will revert; not everything that happened on the planet in the meantime. Rand is one with the Land, not the People.

I'm trying to remember... When Rand balefired Rahvin, Rand was the only one who remembered the events prior, right? Everyone else had no idea what had happened. So people won't know there was already a dawn.

GonzoTheGreat
08-26-2011, 11:07 AM
Read and find out:
Tucking his harp under his arm, Asmodean drifted away from Mat and Aviendha. He enjoyed playing, but not for a pair who did not listen, much less appreciate. He was not sure what had happened that morning, and not sure he wanted to be sure. Too many Aiel had expressed surprise at seeing him, had claimed they had seen him dead; he did not want details. There was a long gash down the wall in front of him. He knew what made that sharp edge, that surface as slick as ice, smoother than any hand could have polished in a hundred years.
Edited to add:
"Nynaeve, I was right behind your boat. I saw what happened. You were fifty paces ahead of me, and then fifty paces behind, sinking. It had to be balefire." He did not need to say more; she said it for him, and with more knowledge than he had.

Crispin's Crispian
08-26-2011, 11:34 AM
Right, OK. So the memories are still there for people who saw what happened, just not for people who died before the balefire was used. What do those people remember about the intervening time? What do the Aiel remember about the intervening time as far as where Asmodean, Mat, and Aviendha were post-lightning but pre-balefire?

In either case, it sound like Terez is right: people will remember the dawn already having happened. Unless they were dead by Rand's hand.

Terez
08-26-2011, 12:30 PM
I'm trying to remember... When Rand balefired Rahvin, Rand was the only one who remembered the events prior, right? Everyone else had no idea what had happened. So people won't know there was already a dawn.
Only the people who died had no idea what happened, and even Asmodean had a clue.

Edit: Some people remembered seeing Asmodean dead, so it stands to reason some people saw Mat and Aviendha dead too (aside from Rand, who remembers everything).

The Unreasoner
08-26-2011, 02:41 PM
You know I tried to comment on the published theory with a quote, but at first the html tags didn't seem to work. Did I do something wrong, which was then fixed? Or does it just take some time to display properly?

My comment basically questions the implications of balefiring the Dragon, and how closely the double dawn is connected to the end of the series. My quote pointed out that balefire originally was intended to prevent rebirth, which would seem to be problematic.

Tamyrlin
08-26-2011, 02:59 PM
You know I tried to comment on the published theory with a quote, but at first the html tags didn't seem to work. Did I do something wrong, which was then fixed? Or does it just take some time to display properly?

My comment basically questions the implications of balefiring the Dragon, and how closely the double dawn is connected to the end of the series. My quote pointed out that balefire originally was intended to prevent rebirth, which would seem to be problematic.

I've read his quote, but I think he needs to be asked if he read something Jordan wrote about it initially, or if this was his impression as a reader of the text that Balefire was the end until Jordan said it was not.

Jordan's intent could always have been that Balefire didn't destroy the soul, but it wasn't a question until later when more of the metaphysics came into play and people wanted a more clear explanation of what Balefire actually did.

The Unreasoner
08-26-2011, 03:58 PM
I've read his quote, but I think he needs to be asked if he read something Jordan wrote about it initially, or if this was his impression as a reader of the text that Balefire was the end until Jordan said it was not.

Jordan's intent could always have been that Balefire didn't destroy the soul, but it wasn't a question until later when more of the metaphysics came into play and people wanted a more clear explanation of what Balefire actually did.

The only other piece of evidence I could find was in the BWB, so questionable canonicity, but for an issue like this, it may be uniquely appropriate:
This weapon was used liberally for a year by both sides—until they discovered its hidden cost. The searing energy of balefire did more than kill or destroy—it actually burned threads from the Pattern. Anything destroyed this way actually ceased to exist before the moment of destruction, leaving only a memory of deeds no longer done and souls forever erased from the Pattern. Not only that; whatever had been done because of those vanished actions also no longer had been done. The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time its victim ceased to exist. During the year of unrestricted use, entire cities were burned from the Pattern, and the world and its universe were threatened by the broken and loose threads. Reality itself was in danger of unraveling.
Either quote on its own may be questioned, but the two together?

Tamyrlin
08-26-2011, 04:17 PM
The only other piece of evidence I could find was in the BWB, so questionable canonicity, but for an issue like this, it may be uniquely appropriate:

Either quote on its own may be questioned, but the two together?

"Anything destroyed this way actually ceased to exist before the moment of destruction, leaving only a memory of deeds no longer done and souls forever erased from the Pattern."

Souls exist outside the Pattern and are woven into the Pattern. So, at the most according to the canon, this statement would support the idea that balefire somehow prevented return of this same Soul into this same Pattern, but not necessarily from being brought back into a new Turning, new Pattern and not the Soul's actual destruction.

Just pointing out that even that quote does not provide support for soul destruction by balefire.

The Unreasoner
08-26-2011, 04:20 PM
Fair enough.
I'm unsure what I think of the "new" Pattern though.

Tamyrlin
08-26-2011, 04:24 PM
Fair enough.
I'm unsure what I think of the "new" Pattern though.

"The Wheel of Time weaves the threads of human lives into the Pattern of an Age, often called simply the Pattern, which forms the substance of reality for that Age." (TEotW,Glossary)

What is "The Pattern" in the BWB? The Pattern of the Age, all the Patterns of all the Ages, the Age Lace? As I mentioned, the BWB's language is hardly definitive.

hawkeye31
08-27-2011, 02:07 AM
I think it's just a matter of time. In other words, he only has to be balefired enough so that his thread is burned back to before dawn.

My memory is a bit rusty but weren't the different nations in Randland in different timezones? If Rand is somewhere in the borderlands and is then balefired far back enough that it is dawn a second time there, could it still be the same day somewhere in Tear?

Tree Brother
08-27-2011, 09:54 AM
Something occurred to me, so I will post it (even though it is Loony :))

Brandon introduced the concept of a reset button: Hinderstap.

What if Brandon wrote Hinderstap as his own foreshadowing? In Hinderstap, the pattern reset itself to how it was 24 hours previously. Kind of like a localized 24 hour balefire event. It wasn't a perfect reset, since the pattern would "fix" things to incorporate anyone new that got caught in its web.

I am still not convinced balefiring Rand would reset the entire pattern back a bit. There could be some other mechanism. Maybe Rand flies around the world turning time back.

Anyway, we one could consider Hinderstap as a foreshadowing of a reset, allowing dawn to occur twice.

Terez
08-27-2011, 12:32 PM
My memory is a bit rusty but weren't the different nations in Randland in different timezones? If Rand is somewhere in the borderlands and is then balefired far back enough that it is dawn a second time there, could it still be the same day somewhere in Tear?
Randland has 2-3 time zones probably. Depending on how far past dawn it is when he's balefired, it could dawn twice in all the Randland nations.

The Unreasoner
08-27-2011, 03:59 PM
his association is with the land, not the entire planet.

Well what do you know...you were right

FelixPax
08-27-2011, 06:54 PM
Randland has 2-3 time zones probably. Depending on how far past dawn it is when he's balefired, it could dawn twice in all the Randland nations.

Ignoring details as usual. :rolleyes:

Your explanation for 'Twice Dawns the Day' is conjuncture, not a theory.

Terez
08-27-2011, 10:23 PM
I've read his quote, but I think he needs to be asked if he read something Jordan wrote about it initially, or if this was his impression as a reader of the text that Balefire was the end until Jordan said it was not.
You should ask him on Twitter when you see that he's around. Here's an anchor link: http://bit.ly/nKpOSS

GonzoTheGreat
08-28-2011, 04:18 AM
Randland has 2-3 time zones probably. Depending on how far past dawn it is when he's balefired, it could dawn twice in all the Randland nations.That is the Wetlands. There's also the Waste, Shara and Seanchan. Adding those would very significantly increase the number time zones.

And, as you should know, the Prophecies are spread far and wide there too, so there's no reason to assume that the "the day dawns twice" wouldn't apply to those parts of the planet as well.

Terez
08-28-2011, 12:05 PM
That is the Wetlands. There's also the Waste, Shara and Seanchan. Adding those would very significantly increase the number time zones.
No shit, Sherlock.

And, as you should know, the Prophecies are spread far and wide there too, so there's no reason to assume that the "the day dawns twice" wouldn't apply to those parts of the planet as well.
Sure there is. I bet if you think about it a little bit, you'll get it.

The Unreasoner
08-28-2011, 03:18 PM
And, as you should know, the Prophecies are spread far and wide there too, so there's no reason to assume that the "the day dawns twice" wouldn't apply to those parts of the planet as well.

I think her point is that only a portion of the world would actually be in the specific day that the balefiring occurs. Of course, that doesn't explain how that day is to dawn twice in places already in the future day or too far back in the past.

The Unreasoner
08-28-2011, 09:27 PM
Was there something wrong with my last comment on the published theory?

Terez
08-28-2011, 09:41 PM
If it hasn't been published, then probably. Don't feel bad; he heavily edited my comment before that. ;)

The Unreasoner
08-28-2011, 10:15 PM
I didn't realize comments were edited. And mine only stated two things:
1. Telling Kamaul that ta'veren isn't the same as "one with the land", and that from "Apples First", 'possible' doesn't seem to apply.

2. Telling Myth that the theory alleges no changes in time, just space, and is consistent with what we know of balefire.

That is the case with your theory, yes? The rotation of the Earth is a function of the Dragon's existence (at least while he's 'spun out')? Therefore the balefiring would force the Earth into a previous physical state (including rotation) commensurate with the strength of the balefire.

Wantfear's comment seems completely irrelevant.

Terez
08-28-2011, 10:18 PM
If you made the comment tonight, then Tam probably just hasn't posted it yet. The comments don't go through automatically; he reviews all of them. I also put in a comment along the same lines to Myth, and I responded to Wantfear.

Tamyrlin
08-28-2011, 11:00 PM
If you made the comment tonight, then Tam probably just hasn't posted it yet. The comments don't go through automatically; he reviews all of them. I also put in a comment along the same lines to Myth, and I responded to Wantfear.

Never. :) Yeah, both comments are posted now.

And Unreasoner, typically I do not edit any content in those comments, but I tend to try to prevent flame wars from breaking out on the main site.

Terez
08-28-2011, 11:01 PM
I remember some hardcore flamewars on the home page. But you paid much less attention when I was a noob.

kielbasaj
08-29-2011, 02:08 PM
Just a quick thought, would the Oaths allow Moraine to balefire Rand?

Terez
08-29-2011, 02:30 PM
Just a quick thought, would the Oaths allow Moraine to balefire Rand?
Probably not. This was one of the things I considered before TOM came out when I was writing up the theory (which I never published, and which had nothing to do with the twice-dawning day in my mind at the time). She might be able to convince herself that Rand is a Darkfriend. (This seems most likely to me.) She might be able to convince herself that she's not using it as a weapon (in that case I think Rand would probably have to ask her to kill him, which seems less likely). She might have asked the Eelfinn to release her from the Third Oath, in which case she would have had to ask for a replacement oath, or use her third wish to ask the Eelfinn to make sure she retained the ageless face, since that requires three oaths according to RJ. (They might have simply had a binder on hand; that is very likely according to what we know about them.) Or, it may be that Mat only saw what he expected to see in Moiraine's face, or that Brandon/Team Jordan blipped (the last option being rather unlikely).

kielbasaj
08-29-2011, 02:41 PM
I did think about it myself also, and one thing I can think of is she convinces herself she's in danger when he breaks the seals, although that's pretty weak.

Terez
08-29-2011, 07:28 PM
I asked Brandon about that signing report.

Terez on Twitter - 29 August 2011 (http://twitter.com/#%21/Terez27/status/108287156648288258)
A signing report implies that you said that RJ changed his mind on whether balefire = eternal death of soul. This true?
Terez (http://twitter.com/#%21/Terez27/status/108287965901488128)
Here is a direct link to that particular report: http://bit.ly/nKpOSS (http://t.co/l9DiIcX) @Blindillusion13 (http://twitter.com/Blindillusion13) is unable to clarify.
Terez (http://twitter.com/#%21/Terez27/status/108288981099220992)
I always assumed what you really said (or really meant) was that you had believed it was the eternal death of the soul...
Terez (http://twitter.com/#%21/Terez27/status/108289620327927808)
...but then when you joined Team Jordan you learned differently (you said elsewhere that @MariaLSimons (http://twitter.com/MariaLSimons) had to convince you).
Brandon (http://twitter.com/#%21/BrandSanderson/status/108313963632144384)
You have the right of it, Terez. I always believed that balefire=Eternal Death.
Brandon (http://twitter.com/#%21/BrandSanderson/status/108314088240726016)
Team Jordan instructed me that this was not the case, and balefire meant the Dark One could not recover the soul.

The Unreasoner
08-30-2011, 01:03 AM
It seems he is saying, "I formerly believed A, and Team Jordan convinced me that the truth of the matter is B." Nothing here seems to speak to whether or not Team Jordan formerly believed A. Except, of course, the 'Terez has the right of it' bit.

Seems that this settles it.

Youngling Rep for objectivity and not just dismissing the issue.

Terez
08-30-2011, 10:42 AM
It seems he is saying, "I formerly believed A, and Team Jordan convinced me that the truth of the matter is B." Nothing here seems to speak to whether or not Team Jordan formerly believed A. Except, of course, the 'Terez has the right of it' bit.
That and the fact that it makes no sense whatsoever for Brandon to tell people that RJ changed his mind on something even if it were true. But logical deductions such as that are inconvenient when you're trolling, aren't they?

The Unreasoner
08-30-2011, 11:09 AM
That and the fact that it makes no sense whatsoever for Brandon to tell people that RJ changed his mind on something even if it were true. But logical deductions such as that are inconvenient when you're trolling, aren't they?

Now I am legitimately confused. My post was intended to concede the point, but now it seems you are arguing the continued possibility of my side.

To be clear, I accept the answer you have provided regarding this issue, and commend you for obtaining it.

And I would never compromise the integrity of Youngling Rep by using it while 'trolling'.

Terez
08-30-2011, 11:14 AM
Now I am legitimately confused. My post was intended to concede the point, but now it seems you are arguing the continued possibility of my side.
I'm saying that you should have realized Brandon would never tell people at a book signing that RJ changed his mind about an important plot point, even if it were true. I'm also saying you should have come to that conclusion before, but since you were trying to troll me rather than trying to make a real argument, it didn't occur to you.

Aulis Vaara
08-30-2011, 01:09 PM
It would just be automatically in its previous pre-dawn position, just like Nynaeve's boat was automatically down the river.

There was a good reason for Nynaeve's boat to be upriver, though (I thought it was upriver and not downriver anyway, because she was going out to one of the Seafolk ships). The reason was pretty damn simple: the oarsmen were killed, and therefore, the balefire erased a good portion of their rowing from the pattern.

The same does not hold true for your theory, Terez. Either the rotation of the earth stops, and everybody dies because not only do they still have their own momentum, but the earth's momentum and angular momentum are all transferred into them (and if I recall correctly, Jordan was a physics teacher, so he would get this right. Then again, gateways work, so, I don't know for sure), or the earth just keeps turning, which means that people just remember the dawn, because it has already occurred. Twice, if you will, but nobody will make that distinction, they'll just remember the dawn.

Another two holes you need to fill, Terez: One. If you think the earth is so closely connected to Rand, why isn't it burned out of the Pattern along with Rand? And two, if you think the earth stops turning when Rand dies: why did it keep turning between the creation of Dragonmount and the Bloodsnow? Furthermore, what will cause it start turning again?

In either case, it sound like Terez is right: people will remember the dawn already having happened. Unless they were dead by Rand's hand.

Indeed they will, but I think that's rather normal for any time after dawn anyway, no?

arguably may be able to sense Darkfriends.

Isn't it obvious that darkfriends simply can't look at Rand, rather than that Rand can see Darkfriends? The one in Maradon screamed about the light, and Weiramon and the woman in Tear couldn't look at Rand directly. You can easily use this to find out who darkfriends are, without needing a darkfriend detector.

like what Rand thought was happening with the LLT construct in his head.

Lews Lerin Telamon? Probably a silly typo, but it occurs all too often when people just think about the letters and not what they are abbreviating in the first place. It's most commonly seen with PPS, which is facepalmingly often written PSS, but even someone who doesn't know any Latin would know something is wrong with Post Scriptum Scriptum.

I just needed to get that off my chest.

Terez
08-30-2011, 01:13 PM
The same does not hold true for your theory, Terez. Either the rotation of the earth stops, and everybody dies because not only do they still have their own momentum, but the earth's momentum and angular momentum are all transferred into them
There is no momentum because balefire negates it.

Another two holes you need to fill, Terez: One. If you think the earth is so closely connected to Rand, why isn't it burned out of the Pattern along with Rand?
Because it's not living.

And two, if you think the earth stops turning when Rand dies: why did it keep turning between the creation of Dragonmount and the Bloodsnow?
Because presumably he's no longer connected to the Land when he dies.

Isn't it obvious that darkfriends simply can't look at Rand, rather than that Rand can see Darkfriends?
To some.

Zombie Sammael
08-30-2011, 01:16 PM
Isn't it obvious that darkfriends simply can't look at Rand, rather than that Rand can see Darkfriends? The one in Maradon screamed about the light, and Weiramon and the woman in Tear couldn't look at Rand directly. You can easily use this to find out who darkfriends are, without needing a darkfriend detector.

There is substantial evidence associating light with the eyes and the eyes with the soul; I have articulated this in the past. The best evidence supporting the notion that Rand can identify Darkfriends by looking into their eyes is what takes place with Weiramon, which is backed up early on in the series (in TSR) by his mistrust of Hadnan Kadere and his comments to Mat about always having to look at the eyes.

Aulis Vaara
08-30-2011, 01:27 PM
It also seems that people don't remember the action that occurred in the "fixed" pattern (i.e. those action that are a result of the balefiring). The aiel seemed to only recall Asmodean and Mat being dead, so even if the days dawns twice through balefire, people would only remember one.

There is substantial evidence associating light with the eyes and the eyes with the soul; I have articulated this in the past. The best evidence supporting the notion that Rand can identify Darkfriends by looking into their eyes is what takes place with Weiramon, which is backed up early on in the series (in TSR) by his mistrust of Hadnan Kadere and his comments to Mat about always having to look at the eyes.

It's true that the eyes are important, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that Rand is able to sense a darkfriend, rather only that he can read a person well enough and has enough information on what that entails in order to tell them apart. The fact that he has to put some effort into it seems to substantiate that.

There is no momentum because balefire negates it.

So A Wizard Did It?

Because presumably he's no longer connected to the Land when he dies.

In that case, he may as well not be connected, because then nothing actually happens. The world keeps turning anyway, whether Rand is there or not. In other words, his connection is meaningless or not even there at all.

The Unreasoner
08-30-2011, 01:40 PM
So A Wizard Did It?

I am not Aulis either.

kielbasaj
08-30-2011, 01:55 PM
After establishing that BF doesn't cause an eternal death of the soul, if a soul were to ignore the prescripts of TAR and make itself known, could it be killed then?
I ask because of this;
JordanCon 24 April 2010 - blindillusion reporting

blindillusion: Is there any way for someone to be removed completely from the Pattern?
Brandon: (Sorry I cannot put out his precise words, but here is the gist) – Jordan started by having balefire do this, but he later debunked this theory by saying someone killed by balefire can be reborn at some point. We currently know of nothing/no method that will completely remove someone from the Pattern.
- I thanked him and turned to walk away at this point, so that he could continue with the signing. But he called me back and commented that: The wolves in the Wolf Dream. We know that in the Wolf Dream something can be completely removed from the Pattern. (Again, not his exact words, but this pretty close. Perhaps J.D can back me up here. He was there.)

Seeing as wolves' souls share TAR with human souls, could the same be applicable to them? It seems the Shadow knows of the wolves' final death, as Slayer seems to be sent to kill them (of course it could just be target practise).
It may be too dangerous entirely to let Rand die, or even do it by the Light's hand with BF, as he's still not safe from the DO.

Terez
08-30-2011, 02:01 PM
It also seems that people don't remember the action that occurred in the "fixed" pattern (i.e. those action that are a result of the balefiring). The aiel seemed to only recall Asmodean and Mat being dead, so even if the days dawns twice through balefire, people would only remember one.
They only recall them being dead because they only saw them dead...until they saw them again. :rolleyes:


In that case, he may as well not be connected, because then nothing actually happens. The world keeps turning anyway, whether Rand is there or not.
The connection is important when he's alive, though. After he's dead, it's inconvenient for the land to depend on his well-being, whether it extends to the rotation of the earth or not.

Aulis Vaara
08-30-2011, 02:09 PM
They only recall them being dead because they only saw them dead...until they saw them again. :rolleyes:

Exactly! Mat would've fought alongside them if he was alive, and thus they should have remembered him doing so, but they didn't. Other explanations and examples of balefire hint at the same thing.

The connection is important when he's alive, though. After he's dead, it's inconvenient for the land to depend on his well-being, whether it extends to the rotation of the earth or not.

I only meant it with regard to the earth rotation thing, it IS obviously important for the other effects.

Crispin's Crispian
08-30-2011, 02:17 PM
The connection is important when he's alive, though. After he's dead, it's inconvenient for the land to depend on his well-being, whether it extends to the rotation of the earth or not.
Sorry, T, but this really makes no sense. Rand is connected to the earth only until he dies, at which point the earth can keep rotating as normal? The only way the connection can be impactful is if Rand is balefired, otherwise it's just as if he weren't connected at all.

That seems rather convenient to your theory.


In either case, it sounds like Terez is right: people will remember the dawn already having happened. Unless they were dead by Rand's hand.
Indeed they will, but I think that's rather normal for any time after dawn anyway, no?
I meant that once the dawn happens again, they will remember it already having happened at that time. This is predicated on there actually being a second dawn caused by the earth reverting back to its previous attitude.

Terez
08-30-2011, 02:20 PM
Sorry, T, but this really makes no sense. Rand is connected to the earth only until he dies, at which point the earth can keep rotating as normal? The only way the connection can be impactful is if Rand is balefired, otherwise it's just as if he weren't connected at all.
You might want to explain that a little better.

Crispin's Crispian
08-30-2011, 02:29 PM
You might want to explain that a little better.

The fact that he's tied to the rotation of the earth means nothing. If he dies, it keeps rotating. If he doesn't die, it keeps rotating. If he is sick, it doesn't rotate slower, etc.

The only way it matters that he's connected to the rotation of the earth is if he is balefired, because then the rotation reverts back to the point to which his thread was burned.

Just seems pretty convenient to your theory that the only way it matters is in the way you want it to matter.

Terez
08-30-2011, 02:31 PM
The fact that he's tied to the rotation of the earth means nothing.
Why does it have to mean anything specific to the earth's rotation?

If he dies, it keeps rotating. If he doesn't die, it keeps rotating. If he is sick, it doesn't rotate slower, etc.Perhaps it would take a little more than sickness to affect that aspect of his link with the land (like death). The crops are surface problems.

Just seems pretty convenient to your theoryOr convenient to the plot, perhaps? We'll find out one day. ;)

confused at birth
08-30-2011, 02:38 PM
Hi Terez.

Crispin's Crispian
08-30-2011, 02:43 PM
Why does it have to mean anything specific to the earth's rotation? Ask Terez. It's her theory.


Or convenient to the plot, perhaps? We'll find out one day. ;)
One day. Yes, one day.

Tamyrlin
08-30-2011, 02:45 PM
The fact that he's tied to the rotation of the earth means nothing. If he dies, it keeps rotating. If he doesn't die, it keeps rotating. If he is sick, it doesn't rotate slower, etc.


Where does the conclusion that the Dragon's death does not affect the earth come from? It would appear in the second age that the Dragon's connection did not stop the earth from rotating. That observation makes us ask: does the Dragon's connection to the Land vary across Ages? However, nothing about what we see with LTT's death indicates that his death did not affect the earth.

Terez
08-30-2011, 02:53 PM
Ask Terez. It's her theory.
Stop being a tard.

Crispin's Crispian
08-30-2011, 03:04 PM
Stop being a tard.

Really? That's the best you can do?

You asked (for some reason):

Why does it have to mean anything specific to the earth's rotation?...when that's the whole point of your theory. Why does it have to mean anything? Because if it didn't, your theory wouldn't be here.

:confused:

Crispin's Crispian
08-30-2011, 03:06 PM
Where does the conclusion that the Dragon's death does not affect the earth come from? It would appear in the second age that the Dragon's connection did not stop the earth from rotating. That observation makes us ask: does the Dragon's connection to the Land vary across Ages? However, nothing about what we see with LTT's death indicates that his death did not affect the earth.

Where does it come from? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Terez indicates that he is connected to the rotation of the earth, but only when he's alive. That makes sense on the surface, but also negates the effect his death may have on the earth. I'm suggesting that she can't have it both ways.

Your other questions are good, but I don't want to get into them right now.

Terez
08-30-2011, 03:11 PM
Really? That's the best you can do?

You asked (for some reason):

...when that's the whole point of your theory. Why does it have to mean anything? Because if it didn't, your theory wouldn't be here.

:confused:
I already addressed that point. You ignored it. (And it has little to do with 'meaning' - you seem to be searching for some sort of significance that just isn't there.)

finnssss
08-30-2011, 03:11 PM
A lot of talk of the rotation of the world itself...sounds a little complicated imo.

I think the answer is far simpler.
We know that the original bore is even "bigger" now than it was 3000 years ago. It has grown over that time and that's why the Seals are breaking down.
When Rand does break the 3 remaining seals, the DO will be able to reach out into the world with an even greater degree than he ever did in the AoL.

We already know what happened when the DO was released in the first place...
tSR chp 26
Darkness spread across the sky. Swallowing the sun in unnatural night.

So I believe the second "dawn" will have nothing to do with the sun actually dawning twice. It will be the sun coming back out again after the initial release of the DO again.

Far simpler and a hell of a lot more likely imo.

Terez
08-30-2011, 03:13 PM
Where does it come from? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Terez indicates that he is connected to the rotation of the earth, but only when he's alive. That makes sense on the surface, but also negates the effect his death may have on the earth. I'm suggesting that she can't have it both ways.
You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. Of course his death is going to have an effect on the planet, but beyond that the connection has to be severed somehow.

Tamyrlin
08-30-2011, 03:14 PM
Where does it come from? That's what I'm trying to figure out. Terez indicates that he is connected to the rotation of the earth, but only when he's alive. That makes sense on the surface, but also negates the effect his death may have on the earth. I'm suggesting that she can't have it both ways.

Your other questions are good, but I don't want to get into them right now.

I'm still confused as to the argument. What are the 'both ways' that conflict? Balefire would affect the rotation is the theory, what is the other way?

It doesn't seem like we have the data to prove what does or does not happen between the Dragon and the Land when the Dragon dies to speak factually about it in this Age or the last.

Terez
08-30-2011, 03:15 PM
So I believe the second "dawn" will have nothing to do with the sun actually dawning twice.
No one cares.

finnssss
08-30-2011, 03:19 PM
No one cares.

Wow...and it still shocks you why you get so many trolls :rolleyes:

Good argument though, kudo's.


What was Rule #5 again....I forget.

Terez
08-30-2011, 03:25 PM
Wow...and it still shocks you why you get so many trolls
What shocks me is that so many people think opinions are important here. We know that most interpretations of this prophecy are non-literal. This theory is an attempt to come up with a literal explanation instead. If you're not discussing the points of the theory, then you're wasting space, because no one cares about your opinion.

Zombie Sammael
08-30-2011, 03:28 PM
A lot of talk of the rotation of the world itself...sounds a little complicated imo.

I think the answer is far simpler.
We know that the original bore is even "bigger" now than it was 3000 years ago. It has grown over that time and that's why the Seals are breaking down.
When Rand does break the 3 remaining seals, the DO will be able to reach out into the world with an even greater degree than he ever did in the AoL.

We already know what happened when the DO was released in the first place...
tSR chp 26


So I believe the second "dawn" will have nothing to do with the sun actually dawning twice. It will be the sun coming back out again after the initial release of the DO again.

Far simpler and a hell of a lot more likely imo.

I for one think this is an interesting theory, especially since other alternatives seem to focus on the idea of an unexpected eclipse or Dragonmount erupting. We know Rand is going to go to Shayol Ghul. I think it's important not to neglect the association made between the Dark One and literal darkness and Shadow. In fact, there might be a lot more evidence for your theory than you think, Finssss:

The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and go. What was, what will be, and what is, may yet fall under the Shadow.

If the seals are broken, it's sensible to think the DO's new found freedom might be enough to cause an unnatural night, given the explicit link between the DO and literal darkness; that's "what is" at least falling under the Shadow.

finnssss
08-30-2011, 03:30 PM
What shocks me is that so many people think opinions are important here. We know that most interpretations of this prophecy are non-literal. This theory is an attempt to come up with a literal explanation instead. If you're not discussing the points of the theory, then you're wasting space, because no one cares about your opinion.


My apologies then.
I just finished reading the Forums Rules (You wrote them right?) again and thought this was a discussion forum.
I guess I also made the mistake of thinking this thread was about theories over one of the prof's. I did not realise that it was your own personal thread where only talk of your theories were allowed.

My bad I guess.

Crispin's Crispian
08-30-2011, 03:40 PM
I already addressed that point. You ignored it. (And it has little to do with 'meaning' - you seem to be searching for some sort of significance that just isn't there.)

Then you've lost me, Terez. I can't figure out what your point is, now.

Crispin's Crispian
08-30-2011, 03:50 PM
I'm still confused as to the argument. What are the 'both ways' that conflict? Balefire would affect the rotation is the theory, what is the other way?

It doesn't seem like we have the data to prove what does or does not happen between the Dragon and the Land when the Dragon dies to speak factually about it in this Age or the last.

Terez thinks that Rand's tie to the land is tight enough that his thread being balefired would revert the rotation of the earth. I would argue that this necessitates some specific connection between Rand and the earth's rotation, which could be in addition to any other specifics.

I made the point long ago that such a connection might cause the earth to stop rotating if he died. Terez disagrees. At least, I think so.

Tamyrlin
08-30-2011, 04:03 PM
My apologies then.
I just finished reading the Forums Rules (You wrote them right?) again and thought this was a discussion forum.
I guess I also made the mistake of thinking this thread was about theories over one of the prof's. I did not realise that it was your own personal thread where only talk of your theories were allowed.

My bad I guess.

There is a time honored tradition around Theoryland that we allow off topic posting. It's just our nature. It is the tradition that allows for someone like Felix to exist on Theoryland. However, from knowing Terez long enough it is clear she isn't fond of the tendency of newer members to take advantage of this quirk on threads she creates to come state their own hypothesis instead of addressing the merits of the theory in question. When that occurs I expect to see her reply, "no one cares," which is code for, "everyone has thoughts and ideas, what made you think to pose the idea here in the midst of this discussion? if you have a different idea, write a theory, support it and make a post and we'll discuss it." At least, that's how I've understood it.

That being said, no one is stopping you from posting your opinion or making an off topic comment (although the absurd and the sarcastic from newer members tends to get edited and/or deleted from time to time), but I wouldn't count on Terez replying with much more than "no one cares."

Tamyrlin
08-30-2011, 04:12 PM
Terez thinks that Rand's tie to the land is tight enough that his thread being balefired would revert the rotation of the earth. I would argue that this necessitates some specific connection between Rand and the earth's rotation, which could be in addition to any other specifics.

I made the point long ago that such a connection might cause the earth to stop rotating if he died. Terez disagrees. At least, I think so.

Wouldn't this supposed necessity assume the same level of influence must exist all of the time for it to exist once?

Whereas, I thought the theory was simply denoting that there is a connection and that such a connection could have a great effect on the earth at one point, not that Rand is always affecting the earth at this same rate/influence all of the time.

The Unreasoner
08-30-2011, 04:21 PM
Terez thinks that Rand's tie to the land is tight enough that his thread being balefired would revert the rotation of the earth. I would argue that this necessitates some specific connection between Rand and the earth's rotation, which could be in addition to any other specifics.

I made the point long ago that such a connection might cause the earth to stop rotating if he died. Terez disagrees. At least, I think so.

Well I guessed, on the published theory:
(Edited to add:the quote I was responding to)
The earth's rotation is presumably only a function of his existence so long as he is alive.

Or it could just be a function of his existence while he is within reality/time. Normally Rand is within either Randland or Tel'aran'rhiod. It may be that that for the period of time between Rand's balefiring and his actual death, he is nowhere. I would rather have a single cause for the Earth's rotation, if possible.

Not saying I believe the theory (or that Terez will accept my explanation), but I like my explanation.

Crispin's Crispian
08-30-2011, 04:34 PM
Wouldn't this supposed necessity assume the same level of influence must exist all of the time for it to exist once?

Whereas, I thought the theory was simply denoting that there is a connection and that such a connection could have a great effect on the earth at one point, not that Rand is always affecting the earth at this same rate/influence all of the time.Whether it exists for all time or just for that moment, the result is the same. Unless you're suggesting that the connection exists just at that exact time he gets balefired so that it can exactly match the prophecy, but otherwise not.

That just seems really contrived to me.

But really, I'm only arguing a point. I don't believe Rand has such a connection to the land that balefiring him will revert the earth backwards to a previous point in its rotation. Or rather, I'm not convinced by the evidence and argument, yet. I'm trying to poke holes in the theory, which is what I do.

Crispin's Crispian
08-30-2011, 04:36 PM
Well I guessed, on the published theory:
(Edited to add:the quote I was responding to)




Not saying I believe the theory (or that Terez will accept my explanation), but I like my explanation.
I kind of like that idea. I still think having it as function of a living Rand negates the function altogether. Or, at least, it makes it seem contrived, as I noted to Tam.

JOS
08-30-2011, 06:18 PM
Lews Lerin Telamon? Probably a silly typo, but it occurs all too often when people just think about the letters and not what they are abbreviating in the first place. It's most commonly seen with PPS, which is facepalmingly often written PSS, but even someone who doesn't know any Latin would know something is wrong with Post Scriptum Scriptum.

I just needed to get that off my chest.

Picky, Picky. Thanks for the long winded explanation of how my typos occur ... :eek: I never knew ...

More importantly, I have some thoughts on the theory.

The Dragon is one with the land, aside from the effect of being Ta'veren, and the effect of order and belief. I do not believe that this connection is necessarily there in every age, as I have found no evidence that LTT had such a connection with the land.

Prior to his death.
EotW, Dragonmount
He drew on the True Source deeply, and still more deeply, like a man dying of thirst. Quickly he had drawn more of the One Power than he could channel unaided; his skin felt as if it were aflame. Straining, he forced himself to draw more, tried to draw it all.

"Light, forgive me! Ilyena!"

The air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied. The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eye that glimpsed it, even for an instant. From the heavens it came, blazed through Lews Therin Telamon, bored into the bowels of the earth. Stone turned to vapor at its touch. The earth thrashed and quivered like a living thing in agony. Only a heartbeat did the shining bar exist, connecting ground and sky, but even after it vanished the earth yet heaved like the sea in a storm. Molten rock fountained five hundred feet into the air, and the groaning ground rose, thrusting the burning spray ever upward, ever higher. From north and south, from east and west, the wind howled in, snapping trees like twigs, shrieking and blowing as if to aid the growing mountain ever skyward. Ever skyward.

At last the wind died, the earth stilled to trembling mutters. Of Lews Therin Telamon, no sign remained. Where he had stood a mountain now rose miles into the sky, molten lava still gushing from its broken peak. The broad, straight river had been pushed into a curve away from the mountain, and there it split to form a long island in its midst. The shadow of the mountain almost reached the island; it lay dark across the land like the ominous hand of prophecy. For a time the dull, protesting rumbles of the earth were the only sound.

I wanted to point out that the stone was not removed, or dissipated like balefired objects, but rather vaporized. This leads me to believe that the weave was not Balefire. The only similar display of such power that we have seen is that of Rand on that very mountain when he had his epiphany in TGS. We have not seen such a weave elsewhere that "turned (the air) to fire, the fire to light liquefied" except for Balefire. Balefire is described as "a bar of white light that (makes) noonday sun seem dark, a bar of fire that (makes) molten metal seem cold." To me, this means that the weaves are comparable, if different.

Which is why I think that Balefire and the “Dragonmount weave” are comparable opposites in function, though both have destructive power.

Also, consider what Perrin saw during Rand's epiphany. There was the gathering storm in TAR, where there is normally no weather, and a reflection of Rand, his darkness, and the power that he held "seeping through" or "crossing over" into TAR from the waking world. Such huge events act upon both the world of dreams and the waking world.

Turn back the clock to LTT's demise. It may well be that the Dragon's body was vaporized in the bar of power, and that his soul and the bar of power existed in both TAR and the waking world at just that moment. As the body was vaporized, the soul was fused to the Earth in TAR. When the Horn was blown, other heroes recognized Rand, or at least his soul, so the Dragon soul was not trapped or destroyed by the blast of power, and by inference, was with the Hero's through the following age in TAR. Anyway, with a possible unknown and immensely powerful weave, touching multiple levels of reality, I think it could have caused the metaphysical phenomenon of the Dragon being one with the land.

If Balefire is the antithesis to that weave of power that linked the Dragon to the land, a very strong weave of Balefire could break the connection to the land (and do all that other nice stuff: free Rand’s soul from the messy merge with Moridin, protect his soul from the DO, and return the Dragon, as Rand, to TAR) and Terez's theorized "jump" or "shift" back to the position of the earth to where Rand's thread was burnt out is quite likely, as the Earth would no longer be connected to the Dragon’s soul and would need to pick up where he left off. Depending on the power of the weave, this would allow for a day to appear to Dawn twice. There could also be other crazy planet level events in addition to this, causing a "breaking" of sorts.

I know a lot of this has been hashed out already, but I thought the events relating to Dragonmount carried a greater significance than we had considered previously.

Tamyrlin
08-30-2011, 06:51 PM
I like the connection between LTT's suicide and creation of Dragonmount and Rand's birth on Dragonmount and his connection to the Land. And then the possibility of severing that connection with his death. Nice. That works well. And I agree that Rand's reintegration on Dragonmount transcending worlds seems to give weight to the idea that his connection and the severing of his connection (his death) would have great repercussions.

Aulis Vaara
08-30-2011, 11:38 PM
Oh, that is very interesting indeed, JOS, and worth considering. But it still does not explain why the earth would stand still between to where Rand's thread was burned back and where he was balefired...

Marie Curie 7
08-31-2011, 12:03 AM
There was a good reason for Nynaeve's boat to be upriver, though (I thought it was upriver and not downriver anyway, because she was going out to one of the Seafolk ships). The reason was pretty damn simple: the oarsmen were killed, and therefore, the balefire erased a good portion of their rowing from the pattern.

That explains only part of it: it explains why the boat was back up the river, not why it was filled with water on the instant of balefire (really before, since its thread was burned back). The specifics of the boat scene result from the fact that everything has a thread, whether animate or inanimate:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Claireducky reporting

Claire: (comment regarding the thread on Dragonmount where some are arguing that by balefiring Graendal's palace, the compulsion disappeared since there'd never had been a palace in the first place, and others are arguing that it doesn't work that way, objects don't have threads).

Brandon: Everything has a thread, not just souls. Even a stone in a wall has a thread in the Pattern.
RJ actually confirmed this long ago:

Letter to Thomas Howard - 14 March 1997

Q: What the hell is up with balefire (in regards to Nynaeve and the boat)? The main issue with this was whether or not balefire burned inanimate objects back through time in addition to living creatures.

RJ: Yes it does.


The same does not hold true for your theory, Terez. Either the rotation of the earth stops, and everybody dies because not only do they still have their own momentum, but the earth's momentum and angular momentum are all transferred into them (and if I recall correctly, Jordan was a physics teacher, so he would get this right. Then again, gateways work, so, I don't know for sure), or the earth just keeps turning, which means that people just remember the dawn, because it has already occurred. Twice, if you will, but nobody will make that distinction, they'll just remember the dawn.

RJ was never a physics teacher - he earned a bachelor's degree in physics from The Citadel.


I think the answer is far simpler.
We know that the original bore is even "bigger" now than it was 3000 years ago. It has grown over that time and that's why the Seals are breaking down.
When Rand does break the 3 remaining seals, the DO will be able to reach out into the world with an even greater degree than he ever did in the AoL.

Sorry, but this is incorrect. From the time the Bore was first opened in the AOL to the time it was sealed, the Bore did increase in size. However, since the time that it was sealed by Lews Therin and companions, the Bore has remained roughly the same size, even with the weakening seals. Per Brandon:

Towers of Midnight Book Tour, Midnight release, Provo, UT 2 November 2010 - Tamyrlin reporting

Matt: Is the Bore larger or smaller than it was at the time of the Sealing?

Brandon: The same size (95% sure)

Matt: So, are the seals, even in their weakened state, the reason the Bore has not grown any larger?

Brandon: As far as I know, yes.

Marie Curie 7
08-31-2011, 12:05 AM
The Dragon is one with the land, aside from the effect of being Ta'veren, and the effect of order and belief. I do not believe that this connection is necessarily there in every age, as I have found no evidence that LTT had such a connection with the land.

Well, Brandon indicated that Lews Therin was tied to the land, too:

Sam Weller's, Salt Lake City, UT 12 January 2011 - Matt Hatch reporting

Luckers: Was LTT one with the land like Rand is?

Brandon: "The Dragon is one with the land...so the answer is yes."

He went on to say that it says the Dragon, not the Dragon Reborn, making the point that it most definitely applied to LTT.


I wanted to point out that the stone was not removed, or dissipated like balefired objects, but rather vaporized. This leads me to believe that the weave was not Balefire. The only similar display of such power that we have seen is that of Rand on that very mountain when he had his epiphany in TGS. We have not seen such a weave elsewhere that "turned (the air) to fire, the fire to light liquefied" except for Balefire. Balefire is described as "a bar of white light that (makes) noonday sun seem dark, a bar of fire that (makes) molten metal seem cold." To me, this means that the weaves are comparable, if different.

Which is why I think that Balefire and the “Dragonmount weave” are comparable opposites in function, though both have destructive power.

We already know that Lews Therin did not use balefire when Dragonmount was created. RJ said that he just drew too much of the power and killed himself:

Letter to Tom McCormick from RJ - November/December 1993

Tom McCormick: Please find out if Lews Therin balefired himself in the prologue in The Eye of the World, or if he just drew too much of the One Power. If it isn't critical to the continuing plot, I'm sure he'll say.

RJ: Lews Therin did not use balefire on himself; he simply drew as much of the One Power as he could, then kept on pulling it in.


Trinity College, Dublin - November 1993

Lews Therin Telamon's suicide was emphatically not balefire, but an overload of the Power.

What happened really isn't that much different than what we know of Queen Eldrene and her last efforts to try to save Manetheren:

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 9 - Tellings of the Wheel

"Now they ran like beasts before a wildfire in the forest, with no thought for anything but escape. North and south they fled. Thousands drowned attempting to cross the Tarendrelle without the aid of the Dreadlords, and at the Manetherendrelle they tore down the bridges in their fright at what might be following them. Where they found people, they slew and burned, but to flee was the need that gripped them. Until, at last, no one of them remained in the lands of Manetheren. They were dispersed like dust before the whirlwind. The final vengeance came more slowly, but it came, when they were hunted down by other peoples, by other armies in other lands. None was left alive of those who did murder at Aemon's Field.

"But the price was high for Manetheren. Eldrene had drawn to herself more of the One Power than any human could ever hope to wield unaided. As the enemy generals died, so did she die, and the fires that consumed her consumed the empty city of Manetheren, even the stones of it, down to the living rock of the mountains. Yet the people had been saved."

Lupusdeusest
08-31-2011, 03:44 AM
So A Wizard Did It?



Damn. Beat me.

GonzoTheGreat
08-31-2011, 04:05 AM
All right, let's suppose that the whole Earth is re-rotated (or whatever the term is) a bit when Rand is balefired.

This means, of course, that the whole Earth is linked to Rand. (Or the meaning goes the other way. Once again, no matter.)
On the other hand, the theory also says that not the entire universe is pushed back in time when Rand is balefired.
But Earth not only rotates on its axis, it also rotates around the center of the Earth-Moon system, and around the Sun.

So, how about the Moon?
If that is not affected, while the Earth is, then balefiring Rand would start the most awful earthquakes anyone ever encountered, the Breaking of the World not excluded, because all sorts of stresses as a result of tidal forces would suddenly be different. If the Moon actually is also brought back in time, then why assume it stops there?

Zombie Sammael
08-31-2011, 04:57 AM
Turn back the clock to LTT's demise. It may well be that the Dragon's body was vaporized in the bar of power, and that his soul and the bar of power existed in both TAR and the waking world at just that moment. As the body was vaporized, the soul was fused to the Earth in TAR. When the Horn was blown, other heroes recognized Rand, or at least his soul, so the Dragon soul was not trapped or destroyed by the blast of power, and by inference, was with the Hero's through the following age in TAR. Anyway, with a possible unknown and immensely powerful weave, touching multiple levels of reality, I think it could have caused the metaphysical phenomenon of the Dragon being one with the land.

There is a problem with this, specifically: if LTT had had ~3500 years in TAR with all the other heroes, why would he (and thus Rand) still be all broken up over Ilyena when he was spun out again? And bear in mind that was a critical plot point at the end of TGS which avoided the Dark Victory of the Light. I can't imagine he would still feel the same level of guilt in quite such an immediate way after three millenia.

As to the rest, what I and others have already said about how fundamental the Dragon's soul would need to be, especially Gonzo's excellent practical example, demonstrates the flaw with that idea. I can follow your theory as far as the Dragon having magicked himself one with the land (though there is some evidence he was even before then), but not all the way to that allowing a turn back in time if he is Balefired. There are simply too many problems with the idea.

Tamyrlin
08-31-2011, 09:01 AM
What happened really isn't that much different than what we know of Queen Eldrene and her last efforts to try to save Manetheren:

Although I doubt he will answer it...well, maybe. We've always assumed (at least I have) that the Breaking of the World was a factor of the insane male channelers...and obviously it was, but I wonder if some of it was attributed to LTT's death. While we know it wasn't balefire, I wonder how much his death contributed to greater effects to the earth.

It would be a good follow up to Luckers' question about LTT and the Land.

confused at birth
08-31-2011, 09:53 AM
What happened really isn't that much different than what we know of Queen Eldrene and her last efforts to try to save Manetheren:

Maybe, yes the city was destroyed but Perrin went past it and it was just a flat lifeless area not a mountain or a crater. this could be because she wasnt as strong, but i have never been sure how much of that story i beleive.

JOS
08-31-2011, 10:08 AM
Well, Brandon indicated that Lews Therin was tied to the land, too

That pokes a hole in the dam, but I think there is some room for interpretation based on how he said it.

We already know that Lews Therin did not use balefire when Dragonmount was created. RJ said that he just drew too much of the power and killed himself

I did not say it was balefire, but it was a comparable, if opposing weave.

What happened really isn't that much different than what we know of Queen Eldrene and her last efforts to try to save Manetheren

It does sound very similar, but the result was different, as what she did stopped at the living rock and what he did drove through the living rock and vaporized it to an unknown depth. It seems that there was intention and direction behind the power in both cases, indicating unique weaves.

Marie Curie 7
08-31-2011, 10:44 PM
That pokes a hole in the dam, but I think there is some room for interpretation based on how he said it.

Well then, you might want to provide some quotes that support your position.


I did not say it was balefire, but it was a comparable, if opposing weave.

Yes, I am aware of what you said, which is why I included the quotes that I did. You said that you BELIEVED that the weave was NOT balefire. I said that we KNOW that the weave was NOT balefire PER RJ. So , if you were paying attention, I was corroborating your belief that it was not balefire with specific evidence from RJ.


It does sound very similar, but the result was different, as what she did stopped at the living rock and what he did drove through the living rock and vaporized it to an unknown depth. It seems that there was intention and direction behind the power in both cases, indicating unique weaves.

Lews Therin drew too much of the Power and killed himself, creating Dragonmount. Eldrene drew too much of the Power and killed herself, destroying Manetheren. The same thing happened to both: they drew too much of the One Power and died as a result. That is the point I was making.

The rest, quite frankly, is just details. It may be that the outcomes were different as a result of the difference between saidin and saidar, or strength in the One Power, or it may have some connection with the original intent of the channeler. Lews Therin was distraught because of the knowledge that he had killed all of his loved ones, so his focus when he drew too much was directed inward; Eldrene was trying to destroy her enemies, so her focus when she drew too much was directed outward.

Tamyrlin
09-01-2011, 10:28 AM
I thought this might be of interest to this discussion:

dustyrueda
Have a Wheel of time question - We see that Dragonmount was created when LTT killed himself. I've always thought this to be 100% an effect of the way he killed himself, but now I'm doubting that to be the whole story. In his death, did LTT's connection to the Land as the Dragon affect the earth in any way? Did his connection contribute to any of the destruction after his death, or even the creation of Dragonmount?

Brandon
His connection was an influence, but not the primary one. He really did build Dragonmount with the power.

Marie Curie 7
09-01-2011, 12:20 PM
I thought this might be of interest to this discussion:

dustyrueda
Have a Wheel of time question - We see that Dragonmount was created when LTT killed himself. I've always thought this to be 100% an effect of the way he killed himself, but now I'm doubting that to be the whole story. In his death, did LTT's connection to the Land as the Dragon affect the earth in any way? Did his connection contribute to any of the destruction after his death, or even the creation of Dragonmount?

Brandon
His connection was an influence, but not the primary one. He really did build Dragonmount with the power.



Nice question. :) Makes me think more about Lews Therin's connections with the land. Maybe that talent of sensing whether or not there are any people in the vicinity is related to being one with the land; that is, he's sensing that the land is empty.

Tamyrlin
09-01-2011, 12:35 PM
Nice question. :) Makes me think more about Lews Therin's connections with the land. Maybe that talent of sensing whether or not there are any people in the vicinity is related to being one with the land; that is, he's sensing that the land is empty.

I'm adding this to my theory about Balance (coming soon...I know I always say that) and the Ogier and how they can sense the land. I think there are some connections.

The Unreasoner
09-01-2011, 02:38 PM
You know:
If Felix is right and Luca is the Dragon, and if Terez's theory is correct...
Since money motivates Luca, money makes the world go 'round (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzaBinatPT0).

alleluia_cone
09-02-2011, 01:19 PM
Basically, I think Gawyn will attempt to go after Dark Rand using the Bloodrings (and maybe a friend or two), and that he will manage to mortally wound Rand (perhaps before Rand kills him - we will see). For a moment, the world will hang in the balance, because if Rand dies by any other means than balefire, then the Dark One will have his soul.

Then, Moiraine will show up and balefire him and save the world.

I just have a few questions regarding the theory (which I like quite a bit):



Will it be clear that Rand is indeed "Dark Rand" when Gawyn attempts to kill him, and to who? And will this attempt be sanctioned by anyone?


Will it be clear to others that Moiraine needs to balefire Rand? And who will know about this sequence of events?


Will Moiraine know ahead of time that there is someway to save Rand even after she balefires him or will she just operate under the assumption that it's better to have no Rand at all than face the possibility he might turn to the Dark One?


I'm also curious what you think the immediate aftermath of Rand's death will be (especially with respect to the participants to his death). Who will take charge? Will there be divisions? Who will think he can be rescued? And so on.

I say all that because I'm one of those that thinks Rand will die and be resurrected (which doesn't interest me all that much, truly, because it's something I've been expecting since the mid-nineties). More fascinating on my end is what will happen in between those two events.

Terez
09-02-2011, 03:13 PM
Will it be clear that Rand is indeed "Dark Rand" when Gawyn attempts to kill him, and to who? And will this attempt be sanctioned by anyone?
Egwene sanctioning it is a high possibility, but some people believe that Gawyn will do it on his own because he believes that Egwene wants him to. It's hard to see her ordering it knowing she's sending a non-channeler against a channeler, unless she talks Elayne into giving her a proper copy of Mat's ter'angreal (which might require linking with a man, or something). I don't know if the Dark Rand thing will be clear when he sets out to do it or not. Gawyn could just be trying to stop him from breaking the seals.

Will it be clear to others that Moiraine needs to balefire Rand? And who will know about this sequence of events?...I think this one is probably more or less impossible to answer. I'm guessing Moiraine knows only because the Aelfinn told her. Something like Mat's experience, actually.

Q: What should I do to help the Dragon Reborn?
A: You must kill him with balefire at the proper time.
Q: Um.....why??
A: Because if you don't the Pattern will be destroyed.
Q: How will I know when the proper time is?
A: (something)

...Will Moiraine know ahead of time that there is someway to save Rand even after she balefires him or will she just operate under the assumption that it's better to have no Rand at all than face the possibility he might turn to the Dark One?I'm assuming she'll figure it out because of Birgitte. (Moiraine was at Falme.) Min will verify that Birgitte is still tied to Gaidal, and therefore probably still tied to the Wheel. Moiraine's Morgan le Fay parallel...she won't be one of the three women on the boat, but she has always been the mastermind of any given situation in which she is involved. All the Supergirls look up to her, and even Nynaeve misses her a little bit. She's over it; she has Lan's bond. The Aes Sedai see Moiraine as a legend. That being said, I don't think she's likely to tell many people before she kills him. Birgitte will just give her some comfort. She might have already suspected something like this was possible. (Note how RJ waited to rip her out until right before Moiraine 'died', and Moiraine didn't know anything about it. But Thom was the first one to figure it out.)

I'm also curious what you think the immediate aftermath of Rand's death will be (especially with respect to the participants to his death). Who will take charge? Will there be divisions? Who will think he can be rescued? And so on.I'm guessing there will be divisions at first, but that before long, Tuon and Mat will take charge. When things go crazy, Mat will probably take the Horn to Illian, order Hawkwing and the Heroes in great detail (that scene will be fun), and conquer the empire. But he will let Tuon have it, essentially, in the end - so long as she meets his terms. ;) Then comes the bargaining with Egwene (and maybe Logain too), and the resurrection.

I say all that because I'm one of those that thinks Rand will die and be resurrected (which doesn't interest me all that much, truly, because it's something I've been expecting since the mid-nineties). More fascinating on my end is what will happen in between those two events.I find all of it interesting. Asmodean was boring. AMOL is going to be fun.

Zombie Sammael
09-02-2011, 03:19 PM
Egwene sanctioning it is a high possibility, but some people believe that Gawyn will do it on his own because he believes that Egwene wants him to. It's hard to see her ordering it knowing she's sending a non-channeler against a channeler, unless she talks Elayne into giving her a proper copy of Mat's ter'angreal (which might require linking with a man, or something). I don't know if the Dark Rand thing will be clear when he sets out to do it or not. Gawyn could just be trying to stop him from breaking the seals.

You think Egwene will be caught in a "Will no-one rid me of this tiresome priest?" situation?

Tamyrlin
09-02-2011, 03:44 PM
You think Egwene will be caught in a "Will no-one rid me of this tiresome priest?" situation?

To what do you refer? I'm not recognizing the reference.

Terez
09-02-2011, 03:45 PM
You think Egwene will be caught in a "Will no-one rid me of this tiresome priest?" situation?
I had to Google that. But yes. (A more useful example would have been Suroth, Alwhin, and Liandrin.)

Edit: Yes as in that's what I meant, not as in that's what I believe. I made that distinction above, I do believe.

Terez
09-02-2011, 03:47 PM
To what do you refer? I'm not recognizing the reference.
LMGTFY (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=will+no+one+rid+me+of+this+tiresome+priest).

Zombie Sammael
09-02-2011, 03:52 PM
To what do you refer? I'm not recognizing the reference.

The murder of St Thomas Becket by knights working on the (perceived) instructions of Henry II. They killed him after the King, in exasperation, said the quote, or something like it (variants include "turbulent" instead of tiresome, or indeed something much less specific about Thomas being a commoner). For more details, well, Terez googled it for you.

There are actually quite a few parallels: the King and Thomas were once good friends (Rand and Egwene were once as good as promised to one another), but fell out after Thomas ascended to Archbishop of Canterbury (Egwene as Amyrlin much different from the Egwene who left the Two Rivers, or even Accepted/Apprentice Egwene); and according to some the King was influential in Becket receiving the position (some think Rand is a puppet of Egwene, others vice versa); they fell out over Becket wanting to reassert the power of the clergy (cf the breaking of the seals, the power of Aes Sedai weakened by swearing to Rand); Becket was sainted after his death, while Henry's power was severely weakened (perhaps explaining why Egwene will require the aid of a Seanchan woman to reach "the top"). Of course, the roles are reversed in some respects, but given Brandon's comments about a GRRM-esque moment I wouldn't be surprised if it was something along these lines.

GonzoTheGreat
09-02-2011, 04:01 PM
To what do you refer? I'm not recognizing the reference.I wouldn't have done this better, I'm afraid. I too would have assumed (incorrectly, apparently) that just about anyone with a modicum of historical knowledge would immediately recognise this rather famous quotation.

Terez
09-02-2011, 04:05 PM
Education just isn't the same over here, you know. On top of that, we feel sort of removed from European history, so in general we don't pay much attention to it.

GonzoTheGreat
09-02-2011, 04:25 PM
It might be considered relevant to learn about one of the reasons (amongst others, of course) why your First Amendment seemed like sort of a good idea to your Founding Fathers. For that matter, the story at the same time also contains reasons for putting limits on said First Amendment.

And, of course, you don't have all that many written pre-Columbian sources from mainland USA, so you might as well learn a bit about other parts of the world.

Heinz
09-02-2011, 04:25 PM
I only know it because of an interest in English history that I pursued on my own. It wasn't taught in any classroom, certainly.

I doubt if Gawyn kills Rand that it will be an equivalent moment, though. Nothing so blatant as Egwene speaking some words in frustration that might be taken to mean Gawyn should go kill the Dragon Reborn, so he does. It just seems a huge stretch. I think it would be an ordered attack, or one of obvious necessity (Rand obviously overtaken by evil/Moridin).

It could be in response to him breaking the Seals, but that seems awefully drastic too. "Yes, I know he has to be at the Last Battle according to our Prophesies, but he's going to break that Seal, the others of which have already been decaying and breaking on their own and will all fail eventually! Kill him so we have the few days/weeks/months left before the rest of the Seals break anyway!" It just does not seem logical at all.

Then again, I shouldn't be shocked by that. People have done some exceedingly illogical things, jumped to horrible conclusions on the stupidest of 'reasoning' before. I shoudln't expect things to suddenly become logical and orderly. (I know, I know, was written that way for a reason, but it still annoys me sometimes. :-P)

The Unreasoner
09-02-2011, 06:53 PM
You think Egwene will be caught in a "Will no-one rid me of this tiresome priest?" situation?

My first thought was an archbishop.

But it was Romero.

alleluia_cone
09-02-2011, 08:06 PM
Egwene sanctioning it is a high possibility, but some people believe that Gawyn will do it on his own because he believes that Egwene wants him to. It's hard to see her ordering it knowing she's sending a non-channeler against a channeler, unless she talks Elayne into giving her a proper copy of Mat's ter'angreal (which might require linking with a man, or something). I don't know if the Dark Rand thing will be clear when he sets out to do it or not. Gawyn could just be trying to stop him from breaking the seals.

I almost prefer the Thomas Becket version of events if for no other reason than because I find it near impossible to envision Egwene retaining any supporters after giving an order for Rand's execution. And even then, I struggle to see how Gawyn would ever come out redeemable after all this, unless you don't think that will be the case.

This is why I'm conflicted about your version of events. It almost seems that everyone who is anybody in the story would have to know that Rand has to be killed in order to prevent wide spread chaos. I mean, what will Elayne, Min, and Aviendha say? Or Perrin and Mat? Or Tuon, and all the monarchs of the world for that matter?

And the breaking of the seals themselves does not seem an adequate explanation to justify Egwene's actions under that scenario, not only to others, but to herself. Has she ever seriously considered fighting the Last Battle without Rand? Wouldn't she have had to reach this point for her to even begin considering such drastic actions?

I'm almost wondering whether it might not be preferable if, say, a Forsaken landed the mortal blow, which would at least allow Rand to come to his allies and tell them to balefire him. I know that might not fit the Mordred parallel but some better justification must be found if we're going to go with the idea that one of his allies will do the deed. I think even Demandred at Caemlyn is easier to reconcile because of these reasons.

As for Moiraine, here also I tend to doubt she'll actually know that Rand can be resurrected. Frankly, from what we have seen, the answers one gets from the Aelfinn are always vague (i.e. "to live, you must die"). I have a hard time imagining that they will have explained to her in detail how Rand can be resurrected. She'll simply see that Rand is dying and that if he doesn't perish via Balefire, the Dark One will be able to claim him. Now that, requires courage -- killing Rand not knowing whether he can come back.

So I guess that's where I am at this point. I'm trying to conceptualize in my head a scenario where Gawyn is ordered to kill Rand by Egwene which would not lead to Egwene getting stilled and executed. The seals -- in my opinion -- don't do the trick, not when he has his fair share of supporters on that count (and sure to draw more via his very nature). Perhaps "Dark Rand" does give rise to a plausible chain of events. But if that's the case, then Rand has to do something that certifiably demonstrates to his allies that he is evil. Not a simple thing in my view.

Either way, Egwene can't simply have Rand killed without justification sufficient to appease everybody from Perrin to Tuon, from Elayne to Min, all the Aei Sedai, and so forth.

Likewise, Moiraine can't simply balefire Rand without everybody being aware why she's doing it or at least without a good explanation to all her allies.

That's the part of the theory or the mechanics of the theory that interest me. How can Rand's allies themselves take such extraordinary measures without alienating Rand's other allies.

Lastly, I wonder if we're not overlooking Lanfear somewhat. She's fresh in Rand's mind at the end of ToM. Is he going to be killed, resurrected and then try to save her? Isn't that a bit odd? I suppose Lanfear might be able to hunt Rand down in Tel'aran'rhiod while he's "dead" but then you have to wonder at the purpose of Rand's dream in the previous book. None of these scenarios seem to fit right.

Terez
09-03-2011, 01:18 AM
I almost prefer the Thomas Becket version of events if for no other reason than because I find it near impossible to envision Egwene retaining any supporters after giving an order for Rand's execution. And even then, I struggle to see how Gawyn would ever come out redeemable after all this, unless you don't think that will be the case.
I think he'll likely be dead. But most people wouldn't understand the difference between what he does and what Moiraine does, not that there will necessarily be any difference beyond the fact that he needs to be killed by balefire. If he's Dark Rand, then he needs to be killed, and there need not be many witnesses.

This is why I'm conflicted about your version of events. It almost seems that everyone who is anybody in the story would have to know that Rand has to be killed in order to prevent wide spread chaos. I mean, what will Elayne, Min, and Aviendha say? Or Perrin and Mat? Or Tuon, and all the monarchs of the world for that matter?
If they don't know who killed him, then there's not much they can say. I don't think everyone needs to know how he died - just that he's dead.

Has she ever seriously considered fighting the Last Battle without Rand?
No. But if he became Dark Rand, she might. I can see her ordering Gawyn to try to stop Rand from breaking the seals, but not ordering him to kill Rand unless he was Dark Rand. But let's not turn this into an Egwene-bashing thread, okay? You seem to be more interested in what she will do than anything else.

As for Moiraine, here also I tend to doubt she'll actually know that Rand can be resurrected.
Why? All it would take is one glance at Birgitte. Did you even read my post? You don't even mention that.

I have a hard time imagining that they will have explained to her in detail how Rand can be resurrected.
I never said they did.

That's the part of the theory or the mechanics of the theory that interest me.
Then you might want to go back and actually read what I said about it.

Lastly, I wonder if we're not overlooking Lanfear somewhat. She's fresh in Rand's mind at the end of ToM. Is he going to be killed, resurrected and then try to save her? Isn't that a bit odd? I suppose Lanfear might be able to hunt Rand down in Tel'aran'rhiod while he's "dead" but then you have to wonder at the purpose of Rand's dream in the previous book. None of these scenarios seem to fit right.
Brandon left the dream hanging, and that makes me wonder if Rand won't wake up with a little Moridin problem.

GonzoTheGreat
09-03-2011, 02:51 AM
But if he became Dark Rand, she might.And how could she be certain enough that he had indeed become irredeemable?

If she's seen Star Wars, then she might* know that having Rand Skywalker serve the Emperor for a while as Dark Vader would eventually actually work out all right.
If she has read The Lord of the Rings, then she would know that Bilbo had been correct when he didn't kill Gollum in The Hobbit.

* For others, "would" would be appropriate here. But I do admit that this is Egwene we're talking about.

FelixPax
09-03-2011, 05:15 AM
You know:
If Felix is right and Luca is the Dragon, and if Terez's theory is correct...
Since money motivates Luca, money makes the world go 'round (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzaBinatPT0).

Money in of itself, does not motivate Luca.


What does motivate him?

Music.
Trees.
Survival.
Adventure.
Attention.
People.
Friendship.
Love.
Meeting his Promises, his Vows.
Good cooking.
Creation.

alleluia_cone
09-03-2011, 01:27 PM
I think he'll likely be dead. But most people wouldn't understand the difference between what he does and what Moiraine does, not that there will necessarily be any difference beyond the fact that he needs to be killed by balefire. If he's Dark Rand, then he needs to be killed, and there need not be many witnesses.


If they don't know who killed him, then there's not much they can say. I don't think everyone needs to know how he died - just that he's dead.


But how truly realistic would it be for Rand to die with nobody questioning the manner of his death?

Or are we to assume that some cover story will be propagated by those that wish to conceal that he was actually killed by his own allies (albeit, under necessary circumstances)?


No. But if he became Dark Rand, she might. I can see her ordering Gawyn to try to stop Rand from breaking the seals, but not ordering him to kill Rand unless he was Dark Rand. But let's not turn this into an Egwene-bashing thread, okay? You seem to be more interested in what she will do than anything else.


Not really. I just can't imagine that she'll order someone to kill Rand. It seems far out of character for her -- which is why I'll at least entertain the Thomas Beckett idea, since it does much to absolve her of blame.

Even then, though, I wonder what it is that Rand will do that will clue in others that he is indeed "Dark Rand." Those best positioned to ascertain such would actually be Alanna and the Red, Blonde, and Brunette.


Why? All it would take is one glance at Birgitte. Did you even read my post? You don't even mention that.


I don't think it's as simple as that, even under the fortuitous scenario where Moiraine is able to catch a glimpse of Birgitte before balefiring Rand. It's not as if she has any idea how the latter is even there. Is it precluded that Moiraine would not assume that Birgitte is there as part of her natural cycling? I've not read the books in a while so don't have any solid grounding on whether Moiraine would be in a position to even guess that Birgitte was ripped out of tel'aran'rhiod. And even if that was the case, I find it hard to believe she'd take the issue so lightly or just assume it was all just a simple thing.

Personally, for dramatic reasons alone, I favor Moiraine balefiring Rand simply because she has to, so that he doesn't go to the Dark One, outside of considerations of whether he can be revived or not. It makes the moment all that more dramatic and the choice all the harder for Moiraine to carry out. Her being aware that there's some way to save him . . . I don't know, it seems to cheapen the moment for me (provided it happens).


Brandon left the dream hanging, and that makes me wonder if Rand won't wake up with a little Moridin problem.

I'm still wondering at this. It does seem to suggest a certain storyline, whatever Lanfear's true intentions. And it comes right before the big meeting among Rand's allies.

My general suspicion, much like yours, is that the meeting itself is somewhat of a red herring.

Terez
09-03-2011, 02:01 PM
But how truly realistic would it be for Rand to die with nobody questioning the manner of his death?
Very. They don't have time for a murder mystery - they're going to freak out because their only hope of winning the Last Battle is dead.

Or are we to assume that some cover story will be propagated by those that wish to conceal that he was actually killed by his own allies (albeit, under necessary circumstances)? I like those little rumor scenarios that RJ often ends his books with.

Not really. I just can't imagine that she'll order someone to kill Rand. It seems far out of character for her -- which is why I'll at least entertain the Thomas Beckett idea, since it does much to absolve her of blame. I'm indifferent so long as it's a convincing-enough Guinevere parallel.

Even then, though, I wonder what it is that Rand will do that will clue in others that he is indeed "Dark Rand."Use your imagination. There are a number of things Rand would never do.

Those best positioned to ascertain such would actually be Alanna and the Red, Blonde, and Brunette. But would they kill him?

I don't think it's as simple as that, even under the fortuitous scenario where Moiraine is able to catch a glimpse of Birgitte before balefiring Rand.Fortuitous? Really?? Moiraine is going to Merrilor. Birgitte is at Merrilor. They're going to meet.

It's not as if she has any idea how the latter is even there.Again, did you read my post? Thom knows. He was the first to figure it out. (ETA: Actually, Thom and Juilin saw her appear out of nowhere, so with the silver arrow, it wasn't too difficult a deduction to make, even though neither was at Falme.)

Her being aware that there's some way to save him . . . I don't know, it seems to cheapen the moment for me (provided it happens). That's ridiculous. It just means she's not an idiot.

I'm still wondering at this. It does seem to suggest a certain storyline, whatever Lanfear's true intentions. And it comes right before the big meeting among Rand's allies.It's all a part of the plan. I think the battle itself is mostly Demandred's plan (with Moridin's approval - there are many hints they work together at least somewhat on that front). That's Caemlyn, the Black Tower, the dreamspike, maybe Murandy and the Legion of the Dragon and the 10,000 mercenaries outside the city...and Talmanes' pipe. The dreamspike came from Moridin when he returned, and then they started building the wall. But Moridin began to give Taim direct orders, subverting Demandred's authority somewhat, and so Demandred was somewhat relegated to Murandy. Brandon said that the Shadow considers Demandred its main player for AMOL, but Lanfear was probably all Moridin. Rand showed Moridin how to get in his dreams in TGS (but Rand is often an idiot).

My general suspicion, much like yours, is that the meeting itself is somewhat of a red herring.I wouldn't be surprised to see a formal meeting take place, but I don't expect anything to be resolved because they are set against each other and it will take more than debating to change anything, and the meeting will be interrupted by earthshaking things by noon at the latest.

Zarth
09-03-2011, 05:25 PM
I have a few problems with this.

1. This is more of a personal dislike for what it would mean for the series, I have more logical reasons below. I think it cheapens the entire idea of Rand's sacrifice if he doesn't do it willingly. The way you're describing it, Rand is taken over the Dark One and then Gawyn wounds him and Moraine balefires him. That hardly has the same impact as Rand willingly giving himself up to death. Even besides all of the Jesus parallels of willing sacrifice, you have the focus in TGH on Sheathing the Sword, which is a conscious, willing decision to sacrifice yourself for something that is worth more than your life. Someone else killing Rand without his consent is the exact opposite of what he's been building himself up for.

2. I don't think it would be possible for Galad + Moiraine + anybody else to defeat Dark Rand, in combat. Look at Gawyn at first, suppose he uses the bloodknives to try and attack Rand (who I'm assuming nobody else knows is actually Dark Rand or else why would they leave it to Gawyn?). This isn't like the Tower where the bloodknives were attacking lone, unguarded Aes Sedai. Rand is surrounded Aiel Maidens as a guard again. I find it unlikely that Gawyn would be able to get past them unseen seeing as the bloodknives were unable to get past him in the tower. Once seen Gawyn would have little chance against Rand even if he had Mat's medallion. Rand is obviously cognizant of such ter'angreal and how to counteract them (he commented on Cadsuane's). Also recall the outcome of the Cyndane/Alivia fight in WH. Cyndane ended up fleeing, but I think that was more of a function of the big ball of black fire than losing to Alivia. Alivia ended up with a mangled arm (later healed), we don't hear anything of her defeating her combatant. Hell, even Teslyn realized how to battle the gholam.

As for Moiraine, she has even less of a chance than Gawyn of defeating a Dark Rand. Consider that Rand with the fat little man(he now has Callandor) battled Lanfear to a standstill while she had the same angreal that Moiraine now has, and this is when Rand was not fully integrated and Lanfear is an order of magnitude more powerful and knowledgeable than Moiraine.

3. Your theory rests on the conjecture that the Dark One is assured victory by Rand dying by non balefire means. If this is the case then why was Semirhage not told to simply kill him? From all we've seen from Shaidar Haran he could have ordered Semirhage to do it and be reasonably confident she would. There would be no reason for her to use the sad bracelets.

4. Continuing on from 3, your response might be that the Dark One doesn't have this power until the seals are broken. I think this is unlikely because he's already been resurrecting people who've died in book 1!

You might respond that he can only take Rand if he dies without balefire while controlled by Moridin after the seals are broken. We can assume, I think, that Moridin is at least as knowledgeable about this specific topic as anyone else and the Dark One more knowledgeable still. If Moridin takes over Rand and can assure the Dark One's victory by dying without balefire then all he has to do is travel to the middle of the Blight and stab himself in the heart, no reason to wait for Gawyn to do it. Remember that if Rand is going to be taken over it will be by Moridin who is the only Forsaken who knows what the Dark One really intends and seems OK with it. Moridin would be quite willing to kill himself/Rand in the middle of the Blight if it meant the pattern ends.

finnssss
09-03-2011, 05:39 PM
3. Your theory rests on the conjecture that the Dark One is assured victory by Rand dying by non balefire means. If this is the case then why was Semirhage not told to simply kill him? From all we've seen from Shaidar Haran he could have ordered Semirhage to do it and be reasonably confident she would. There would be no reason for her to use the sad bracelets.

4. Continuing on from 3, your response might be that the Dark One doesn't have this power until the seals are broken. I think this is unlikely because he's already been resurrecting people who've died in book 1!


Some good points overall, especially about the meaninglessness of Rand's death if it's not at his own choosing/sacrifice but the above is actually even easier to explain than you think.
The DO didn't want him dead at that time because Rand was still in a state of flux if you will, with the possibility of turning him to the Shadow still looming.

Terez
09-03-2011, 06:21 PM
I have a few problems with this.

1. This is more of a personal dislike for what it would mean for the series, I have more logical reasons below. I think it cheapens the entire idea of Rand's sacrifice if he doesn't do it willingly.
He's had that mindstate for a long time now. He knows he'll probably die at Shayol Ghul, and he's willing. There has to be a reason for him to die, and the Moridin link is the only really feasible reason for it. Unless he's caught in some in-between mindstate where he knows about the merge but can't fight it, then him asking someone to kill him doesn't make any sense. Maybe you can come up with a scenario that's logical, though. That's more helpful than saying 'I don't agree because of x.'

2. I don't think it would be possible for Galad + Moiraine + anybody else to defeat Dark Rand, in combat.No one said anything about Galad.

Look at Gawyn at first, suppose he uses the bloodknives to try and attack Rand (who I'm assuming nobody else knows is actually Dark Rand or else why would they leave it to Gawyn?). This isn't like the Tower where the bloodknives were attacking lone, unguarded Aes Sedai. Rand is surrounded Aiel Maidens Hold up, have you seen what Brandon has written already on AMOL? You could share, you know.

Rand is obviously cognizant of such ter'angreal and how to counteract them (he commented on Cadsuane's).He's not prepared for a combination of a weave-breaker and a Bloodring.

As for Moiraine, she has even less of a chance than Gawyn of defeating a Dark Rand.That's bullshit. All she has to do is catch him off guard long enough to balefire him, like she did Be'lal.

3. Your theory rests on the conjecture that the Dark One is assured victory by Rand dying by non balefire means.That's the presumed reason why he has to be balefired, but it also happens to explain 'twice dawns the day', otherwise the two theories would be unconnected. The one theory came before the other, but when the evidence works together, it's wise not to dismiss it as 'conjecture'. It's better supported than any other theory.

If this is the case then why was Semirhage not told to simply kill him?She wasn't told to do what she did. But I'm assuming that the Dark One prefers to win him some other way, and that stealing his soul is a back-up plan.

Remember that if Rand is going to be taken over it will be by Moridin who is the only Forsaken who knows what the Dark One really intends and seems OK with it. Moridin would be quite willing to kill himself/Rand in the middle of the Blight if it meant the pattern ends.Presumably the Dark One has different plans.

confused at birth
09-03-2011, 07:01 PM
It's better supported than any other theory.


yes but how many from here have been right to make you think that will matter?:D

Terez
09-03-2011, 07:14 PM
yes but how many from here have been right to make you think that will matter?:D
Quite a few, actually.

The Unreasoner
09-03-2011, 07:17 PM
Good cooking (motivates Luca)
What a remarkably well developed character.

Personally, for dramatic reasons alone, I favor Moiraine balefiring Rand simply because she has to, so that he doesn't go to the Dark One, outside of considerations of whether he can be revived or not. It makes the moment all that more dramatic and the choice all the harder for Moiraine to carry out. Her being aware that there's some way to save him . . . I don't know, it seems to cheapen the moment for me (provided it happens).
I agree 100%. The themes of incomplete intel, fog of war, the 'price' of victory...they could all be highlighted here, to great effect.

Fortuitous? Really?? Moiraine is going to Merrilor. Birgitte is at Merrilor. They're going to meet.
Hmm. There are at least several hundred thousand people at Merrilor. But with two ta'veren in the vicinity, what must be will be. However improbable.

3. Your theory rests on the conjecture that the Dark One is assured victory by Rand dying by non balefire means. If this is the case then why was Semirhage not told to simply kill him? From all we've seen from Shaidar Haran he could have ordered Semirhage to do it and be reasonably confident she would. There would be no reason for her to use the sad bracelets.
A valid question...but I feel it was adequately addressed. I do like your #1 though.
And:
No one said anything about Galad...Hold up, have you seen what Brandon has written already on AMOL? You could share, you know...That's bullshit...
With that, Zarth, welcome to Dusty's Wheel (The Dusty Wheel/The Rumor Wheel/Theoryland)! ;)

But, you know, if you have some dirt on AMoL, do share.

confused at birth
09-03-2011, 07:17 PM
Quite a few, actually.

really. i know i havent seen all the old ones but a lot of the newer ones seem to be quite gaga.
of course they might have been about simple things that any NOOB could pick up on but still bravo:D

And I would have taken 1 as good enough

Zarth
09-03-2011, 08:00 PM
Some good points overall, especially about the meaninglessness of Rand's death if it's not at his own choosing/sacrifice but the above is actually even easier to explain than you think.
The DO didn't want him dead at that time because Rand was still in a state of flux if you will, with the possibility of turning him to the Shadow still looming.

I agree that the DO didn't want him dead then because he still wanted Rand to turn to the Shadow. My point is that if the DO could take Rand by just killing him sans balefire then what's the point of waiting?

I don't think there's much of a difference between Rand going to the Darkside on his own as almost happened on Dragonmount and what Terez describes as what will happen if he is killed without balefire. At the end of the day the DO would have Rand and the vision of the wolves would come. Nothingness.


He's had that mindstate for a long time now. He knows he'll probably die at Shayol Ghul, and he's willing. There has to be a reason for him to die, and the Moridin link is the only really feasible reason for it. Unless he's caught in some in-between mindstate where he knows about the merge but can't fight it, then him asking someone to kill him doesn't make any sense. Maybe you can come up with a scenario that's logical, though. That's more helpful than saying 'I don't agree because of x.'

It's quite feasible for him to simply just get stabbed again at Shayol Ghul while sealing the bore and die that way.

If he has to die to sever the link to Moridin, (which is a pretty good idea) then I think it would play out much like was foreshadowed in Egwene's Accepted test. Rand begging her to do it because he's attempting to fight off Moridin at that instant and realizes that he's losing. In this situation there is no reason for Gawyn to be the one to kill him. Instead I see it being someone like Perrin.

I also don't think if there is a merge that it will be certain that Moridin wins. All we've read and seen about Moridin/Rand is that their rather evenly matched, perhaps Rand's soul survives the merge instead of Moridin's.


No one said anything about Galad.

I got my brothers confused. :(


Hold up, have you seen what Brandon has written already on AMOL? You could share, you know.
What are you talking about? What does anything Brandon has written so far have to do with this? We know that Rand is surrounding himself with Aiel bodyguards again. Unless you're supposing that as one of his first Dark Rand acts he sends away all the Aiel so he can be evil all by himself?


He's not prepared for a combination of a weave-breaker and a Bloodring.

How so? An unaugmented Gawyn survived fighting 3 bloodknives for a good long while before he turned the lights off. Warder Rand only has to survive for long enough to realize the weave breaker is there and to counteract it. Even without his hand and without any advance warning from Aiel guards I think he could do that against Gawyn.


That's bullshit. All she has to do is catch him off guard long enough to balefire him, like she did Be'lal.


Read the passage with Be'lal again. Moiraine caught Be'lal off guard because he underestimated her and he didn't know she knew the balefire weave until it was too late (he even had time to go on a nice evil rant!). Neither of those apply to Rand. Furthermore if Rand still has Callandor it is not at all obvious that her balefire would be effective!


That's the presumed reason why he has to be balefired, but it also happens to explain 'twice dawns the day', otherwise the two theories would be unconnected. The one theory came before the other, but when the evidence works together, it's wise not to dismiss it as 'conjecture'. It's better supported than any other theory.

It is your presumed reason why he has to be balefired. I disagree that he has to be balefired, I think it would be sufficient for him to die by other means. It is also a pretty big reach to suppose that Rand's connection with the land has anything to do with the rotation of the earth. What have we seen with Rand's connection to the land? Food spoiling and then not spoiling. As far as I remember, the actual weather patterns WERE determined by the DO's touch and counteracted by the Bowl of the Winds. I don't recall nights being any longer or anything that would suggest the rotation of the earth factors into it. Hell, has there even been anybody in story that talk about rotation of the earth?

Finally let's just think about what happens if Rand wakes up merged with Moridin as Dark Rand. It makes no sense for him to walk around trying to be like Rand so that only Egwene in her greatness realizes it. It makes a ton of sense for him to grab Callandor and just destroy everyone around him. If Rand ever goes over to the Dark nobody would have enough time to realize it and act on it.

Just to recap:
Rand dying to break the tie to Moridin - possible to probable. If he does it I think it will be a sacrifice he makes because he knows he's losing the fight for himself.

Gawyn killing Rand - doubtful. He's just not good enough.

Rand needing to be balefired - doubtful. If the Dark One could get him that easily he'd have done it already.

Terez
09-03-2011, 08:02 PM
really. i know i havent seen all the old ones but a lot of the newer ones seem to be quite gaga.
Don't confuse Felix or the average noob with Theoryland.

Terez
09-03-2011, 08:07 PM
I agree that the DO didn't want him dead then because he still wanted Rand to turn to the Shadow. My point is that if the DO could take Rand by just killing him sans balefire then what's the point of waiting?The same questions could be asked about many things. We don't know enough about how the Dark One things to try to understand it.

If he has to die to sever the link to Moridin, (which is a pretty good idea) then I think it would play out much like was foreshadowed in Egwene's Accepted test. Rand begging her to do it because he's attempting to fight off Moridin at that instant and realizes that he's losing. In this situation there is no reason for Gawyn to be the one to kill him. Instead I see it being someone like Perrin.
There isn't any foreshadowing at all indicating that Perrin will kill Rand, nor is Perrin a Mordred parallel, so it isn't likely to happen despite what you would like.

What are you talking about?
You are acting as if you know for sure that Rand couldn't possibly be unguarded at any point in AMOL. You can't assume that he will be.

How so? An unaugmented Gawyn survived fighting 3 bloodknives for a good long while before he turned the lights off.
Brandon said he was a lot luckier than he realized. Also, it's a bit easier for a Bloodknife to hide in an open space as opposed to a bedchamber.

Warder Rand only has to survive for long enough to realize the weave breaker is there and to counteract it.
He can't counteract it if he can't see his target.

confused at birth
09-03-2011, 08:12 PM
well that is a nice, well thought out response but Zarth is wrong here he does have time to act like a twat before getting blasted. But Zarth has Rand never stood around talking or being stupid with an enemy before?

Don't confuse Felix or the average noob with Theorylandeveryone is an average noob at some point it is what you do with it that matters, coming here can either help move you beyond this or will make you worse which could explain Felix

The Unreasoner
09-03-2011, 08:23 PM
it's a bit easier for a Bloodknife to hide in an open space as opposed to a bedchamber.

Is this accurate?

Terez
09-03-2011, 08:24 PM
Felix has been a nut from day one.

Thread closed. (Again.)