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WinespringBrother
08-22-2011, 10:08 AM
To recap the concept:

First, pop over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5669) for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

This week, we're discussing Berelain Sur Paendrag:

So now that she has found her prophesied Man-in-White, what is next for her? She has apparently stopped going after Perrin and Rand for the moment, but will she settle down? She provides ties to Andor, Mayene and Seanchan now (and in some ways she is linked/respected by the Aiel, including Rhuarc and the Wise Ones), that may prove valuable in the final days of this age. She is also a strong leader, having governed Mayene at a young age, and having administered Cairhien for the Dragon Reborn, so will she end up ruling somewhere?

Some have speculated that she has dark secrets, or is masquerading as a certain Aes Sedai... are there any interesting revelations forthcoming in AMOL?

GonzoTheGreat
08-22-2011, 10:22 AM
She may be considered "well born enough" to be acceptable as Overlord (all right, Overlady) of the East. That way, Fortuona can desist from further conquests without loss of face, and Rand won't have the headache of having to listen to hundreds of whining AS. And all the other rulers can then go on doing what they'd been doing anyway: ignore her.

Ishara
08-22-2011, 11:53 AM
Thanks for putting this up WSB! :)

I think people forget the fact that of ALL the Ruling families in Randland, hers is the only one that lays claim to ancestry from Artur Hawkwing. While I think that could put her in the good books with Frtunona when it comes down to actually having to determine waht an alliance and ownership of Randland means for her and the Seanchan, I also feel that it could also put Berelain and Mayene in a great deal of danger.

We've seen how Fortuona feels about Nobles who have failed their people and forsaken their supposed Oaths. If she decides that Berelain's ancestors forsook their Oaths but stayed in power, it could be a silk back in the Tower for her, no?

WinespringBrother
08-22-2011, 03:11 PM
Thanks for putting this up WSB! :)

I think people forget the fact that of ALL the Ruling families in Randland, hers is the only one that lays claim to ancestry from Artur Hawkwing. While I think that could put her in the good books with Frtunona when it comes down to actually having to determine waht an alliance and ownership of Randland means for her and the Seanchan, I also feel that it could also put Berelain and Mayene in a great deal of danger.

We've seen how Fortuona feels about Nobles who have failed their people and forsaken their supposed Oaths. If she decides that Berelain's ancestors forsook their Oaths but stayed in power, it could be a silk back in the Tower for her, no?

You also have Galad and his whitecloaks foreswearing their oaths to one Hawkwing heir (Fortuona) and getting enmeshed with another (Berelain) though they aren't formally serving Mayene obviously since Galad is Perrin's follower.

Davian93
08-22-2011, 06:30 PM
You'd figure that Fortuona will go one of two routes with her:

1. Execute her as a fake and/or possible rival for daring to claim the Paendrag name.

2. Welcome her and place her as a Vice-Roy of even higher stature than Beslan due to her royal blood.



On a side note, Berelain is basically awesome on many levels.

Crispin's Crispian
08-22-2011, 06:56 PM
I wouldn't be at all surprised if part of her upbringing included some version of the Oaths that the Westlanders supposedly foreswore. Look for her to confront one of the Blood and bust out some old saying that actually puts her near the top of the pecking order.

Kind of exciting!

Weiramon
08-22-2011, 08:55 PM
Burn my soul, she was held prisoner . . . I mean, kept as a guest in Tear those months before the Lord Dragon arrived to claim that . . . thing . . . lodged in the Stone. Being from Mayene, she may have in her possession some 300 year-old transcripts about some silly object, the kind of item, ahem, that really should be kept out of sight and mind. Who knows what her Aes Sedai might have advised her to do? A woman like that might look for answers anywhere.

Terez
08-22-2011, 10:23 PM
Foreshadowing:

"Perrin Aybara belongs to me," she snapped. "You keep your hands and your smiles away from him!" She flushed to her hairline when she heard what she had said. She had promised herself she would never do this, never fight over a man like a farmgirl rolling in the dirt at harvest.

Berelain arched a cool eyebrow. "Belongs to you? Strange, I saw no collar on him. You serving girls – or are you a farmer's daughter? – you have the most peculiar ideas."

"Serving girl? Serving girl! I am —" Faile bit her tongue to stop the furious words. The First of Mayene, indeed. There were estates in Saldaea larger than Mayene. She would not last a week in the courts of Saldaea. Could she recite poetry while hawking? Could she ride in the hunt all day, then play the cittern at night while discussing how to counter Trolloc raids? She thought she knew men, did she? Did she know the language of fans? Could she tell a man to come or go or stay, and a hundred things more, all with the twist of a wrist and the placement of a lace fan? Light shine on me, what am I thinking? I swore I would never even hold a fan again! But there were other Saldaean customs. She was surprised to see the knife in her hand; she had been taught not to draw a knife unless she meant to use it. "Farm girls in Saldaea have a way of dealing with women who poach others' men. If you do not swear to forget Perrin Aybara, I will shave your head as bald as an egg. Perhaps the boys who tend the chickens will pant after you, then!"
The interesting bit is that the Firsts of Mayene are probably the descendants of Hawkwing's daughter who was sent to conquer Shara much as Luthair was sent to conquer Seanchan. One expedition succeeded, the other failed miserably.

Enigma
08-23-2011, 07:42 AM
Do we know that she really is descended from Hawkwing's line? From what I recall a lot of nobles made that claim after Hawkwing's death in an effort to hold on to his empire or boost their prestiege. May be Berelain is a descendent or maybe not but one Seanchan already said that she would be honoured provided she didn't try to take the Crystal Throne. I think this was the Seanchan general who ended up with Perrin.

Personally I thought that her character seemed to have been handled a bit differently in the last book but perpaps we never really saw too much of what she was really like.

In the first few books she was cool and collected. She resisted the efforts of the High Lords of Tear to sign a terrible treaty while a 'guest' in the Stone before Rand showed up. When Rand did show up she fumbled with him initially but seemed to find her way with him once she reappeared in Cairhien. She seemed to be loyal and clever and good at politics, exactly the sort of supporter he needed.

Faile got under her skin a bit but there seems to be quite a few posters here and on other boards who don't like Faile either and thats with the benefit of seeing some scenes throught Faile's pov.

Then in the last book it was shown that this woman who seemed to be really good at politicsm reading people and situations and at inspring loyalty in her own people, completly misread Perrin and the situation with him.

Perhaps it was only me but would someone who is good with people as apparantly Berelain is, get things that wrong? It is certainly possible but I would have thought that even if she misjudged Perrin at first she spent enought time with him to figure him out without having to have Faile draw her a map.

I would love it if Rand decided to have Galad made King of Cairhien and unite Cairhien and Mayne under Galad and Berelain. With her political skills and knowing how the world works and his idealism it would be a good match. Plus it would put Elayne's nose out of joint if Cairhien was snatched away from her. That petty I know but her sense of entitlement to Cairhien annyoed me.

Ishara
08-23-2011, 08:44 AM
I'm re-posting one of Eclipse's theories from way back in the Yuku days. It's awesome.

Berelain is Moiraine (http://www.theoryland.com/chronicles.php?user=eclipse&page=b)

*Page # are from paperbacks as far as I know.

THIS one, my friends and colleagues, is a doozy . Understand, this is my pet. It’s more of a joke than anything. I’ve never heard anyone allow even a possibility for this one, let alone say they actually believe in it. I hope this is just a fun read. That, upon reading, you think to yourself “Wow. That was a real trip.” If you want to reply with faults, mistakes, and absolute theory breakers, feel free. Truthfully, I looked for those myself, but all I found was as circumstantial as what I pulled together to make this thing what it is. But then, I have a bit of bias.

I will try to follow my own conventions throughout, but keep in mind I spent an hour at least just assembling all my notes from previous posts and my reread. It is possible for me to make a mistake here and there. When I use full names, it means the originals. When they are shortened, that indicates the switch has been made. Also, all the notes and references are, for the most part, in book and page order.

Without further ado. The Ber is Moi Theory.

First, as much as some of you want it, Moiraine is not gone for good. She will be back, and I’ll try to show this as much fait accompli as I can.

TSR - Pg. 279 “I will tell you the names of those Red Sisters when I see you next.” Moiraine to Thom. If she is saying she will TELL him, then what is on the note Mat relays to her from Rand? She says she WILL see him again, and if she knows this, why bother to tell him the names with a note when the Oaths should bind her to wait and tell him when she sees him next?

LoC - Pg 784 “Good news? I haven’t puzzled that out yet.” Thom about the note Rand gave to Mat to pass on. It’s not the names of the Reds (those would not present a puzzle, and that list is something he wants). Thom then complains about women liking to be mysterious (referring to Moiraine and her letter). The note was probably a hint about seeing him later with the information she promised, and not to worry. I would guess the information that she’s dead would have been passed on via Egwene to Elayne/Nynaeve to Thom.

Some viewings from Min:
ACoS pg 696 - Rand - Will almost certainly fail without a woman who is dead and gone.
ACoS pg 700 - Moiraine - In reference to Min's thoughts, Jordan states "Moiraine was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed."
These two together, while not conclusive, are hard to deny when coupled with Moiraine’s own words to Thom about seeing him again.

That out of the way, let’s move on to the guts of my pet. The Berelain we see now in the south with Perrin is NOT the original Berelain. She is what I call Ber. She is Moiraine, returned from the Eelfinn - and now I call her Moi - and has been playing the role of Ber since sometime after Berelain came to Cairhien to act as regent in Rand’s name. I will begin with the foreshadowing.

The Dragon Reborn -

Pg. 124 “I already have a Warder, Perrin.” Her lips quirked almost into a smile. This is Perrin asking for dream protection by Moiraine like Lan. Then he thinks, “Light! Bound to an Aes Sedai for the rest of my life? That’s as bad as the wolves.”

Pg. 391 “You sometimes forget, Perrin, that you are a good looking young man.” Moiraine tells Perrin this after he mentions Faile looking at him in the common room. She smiles a bit too.

Pg. 392 Perrin stands in the hall outside Moiraine’s room and thinks about how good looking she is and the appeal of her seminaked body (she had to pull up her drooping robe when he entered). Confused or not, Perrin is obviously attracted to Moiraine in a very male way.

Pg. 404 “Every queen of Manetheren was an Aes Sedai, and the king the Warder bound to her.” Faile explaining about Manetheren to Perrin on the boat to Illian. This is a solid bit of foreshadowing. Whether or not it truly relates to Perrin, it will be proved again in the future, when New Manetheren rises, and the first King and Queen reign.

The Shadow Rising -

Pg. 126 “I could wager I know the face of the man I will marry better than either of you knows that of your future husband.” Moiraine says nothing of love, at this moment, only marriage. Her love for Perrin will come later. Also, there is too much straightforward (forceful) hinting at Moiraine and Thom. On that alone, I don’t believe Thom and Moiraine will happen.

Lord of Chaos -

I didn’t note the page (sorry), but I think everyone remembers when Faile told Perrin that, should she die, she expects him to mourn a suitable time, and then move on to another, whom she expects she would approve.

Winter’s Heart

Missed the page again. Faile was upset that Ber (that trull) was the one to escape. She thinks she could actually have liked Berelain if not for Perrin being between them.

After the foreshadowing comes all the rest. Hints and questionable moments galore.

Edit: this is from The Eye of the World. When in Baerlon, Moiraine says wryly that Min “saw a great many things,” after viewing the Emond’s Fielders. I think this is the part where Moiraine first learns that she has a future with Perrin.

The Dragon Reborn -

Pg. 674 The original Berelain comes into the room and first flirts with Rhuarc, then tells the women and Mat that she will be having dinner with the Dragon. This is weak, but relevant. This is very different behavior from what we see later, particularly from what we read about later in Cairhien and with Perrin in Winter’s Heart. It is not simply that this woman is amazingly forward, but that it fits with all the rumors about her. This woman, flirting with Rhuarc, and then bluntly telling the women in the room - with Rhuarc looking on - she will be giving her attentions to Rand later, does not jibe with a woman who has only shared her bed with two men.

The Shadow Rising -

Pg. 76+ Berelain comes to Rand’s chambers in a sheer robe and even sheerer “teddy” underneath. She has every intention of shagging him and this is NOT the Berelain we see in WH who claims only two men have shared her bed. Her words are, “We are not so formal in Mayene.” By every other indication we see in the Stone, she takes full advantage of this fact.

Pg. 79 “If you think you must be harsh with me then be harsh, so long as you hold me.” Definitely not the same Berelain with Perrin. There is also something at this very moment that helps in one way, yet can easily lead to a similar, but different conclusion. As she touched his face sparks “leapt from her fingers,” before he shoved her back with the OP (edit: as Uncle questions, static from the carpet? Heh heh ). This original Berelain is an AS (even if she hasn’t “bound” herself to cause the agelessness), and if this isn’t enough, her behavior and words in later books (especially in WH if that woman truly is the original Berelain) remove the doubt. Now, being Aes Sedai, it makes her cooperation with the switch later even more believable. Berelain being the First of Mayene, and having to deal with Tear - which hates Aes Sedai with a passion - no way is she going to advertise by word or deed that she is connected to the Tower, let alone that she is a sister. Considering only what is in Winter’s Heart, I think most just jump on the fact she is an Aes Sedai, and leave it there; that her being a sister explains all the niggling question mark moments. I disagree, especially considering all the other bits of info I’ve collected.

Pg. 236 “Too much like me.” Berelain muttering to herself about Mat as she passes him, in the Stone. If this Berelain is too much like Mat, it is hard to believe she’s only known two men previously. Mat is a true hound, and Berelain’s own words damn her. Moiraine having only known two men based on political reasons, I could buy. Berelaine, I find it hard to believe.

Pg. 244 “I will keep him as a pet... you can have him when I’m finished.” Berelain sounds nothing like this later on. This is one easy woman wanting to play. The WH Ber is not like this at all. She’s serious about her pursuit and doesn’t give the impression she plans on letting him go once she’s won him.

The Fires of Heaven

Pg. 901 In Moiraine’s letter to Rand, she says to give Thom the second letter, as “there is a small matter that I once told him of which I must make clear for his peace of mind.” This letter is NOT the list of names. It is something to give Thom pause, as it does when he reads it later. I believe it says not to worry, she would keep her promise that she gave him in the Stone. Hence, his words of not understanding the cryptic nature of the message.

Lord of Chaos -

Pg. 23 Moiraine had known the invisibility weave and had figured out Balefire on her own. She had also hinted at a way to sense what a man had woven (pg. 324), so it’s not farfetched if the ability to hide channeling ability was another of her secrets. She tells Perrin and co. in tDR that she had gotten more powerful since first meeting the Rivers folk. (edit: whoever she may have wanted to hide the ability from, I can only guess, but I would never say that skill is totally unknown among today’s AS).

Pg. 395 Ber asks after Mat and Perrin’s health. Rand thinks to himself that she always does this, even after he has already apprized her of their most recent situations.

Pg. 397 Ber approves of the daughters of nobles playing at swords. It’s possible Ber (or even Berelain) would see an advantage in using some of them as eyes and ears.

Pg. 398 Ber calls some of the youngsters trying to follow ji’e’toh “young men” even though she’s not any older than Nynaeve (should she be the original Berelain).

Pg. 404 “She seems a different woman altogether,” Rand thinks to himself of Ber as she discussed the business side of Cairhien.

Pg. 419 Wise Ones “treated her as a woman of sense and respect,” and for no reason Egwene could think of.

Pg. 430 According to Rand, “She (Ber) might as well have been a Wise One.”

The last six notes (just above) are all very circumstantial. There is no way, at the times of those passages, to tell if it is Ber or Berelain. I believe both Ber and Berelain are in Cairhien at this time, and they are working together, but even still, the original Berelain placed in control of Cairhien could justifiably be credited with these six notes. I still say they point to Ber (Moiraine). I’m sure you are asking, why go to the trouble of the disguise. I think it gives her more maneuverability. Moiraine is only a legend in the eyes of the rebel Aes Sedai. There are plenty out there still connected to the Tower (and probably not a few among the rebels) that think she is the cause of the Tower’s current situation. Her and Siuan. Siuan has been severely punished and brought low. Moiraine, has not. Should she come out into the open, she would have to deal with the stained reputation she left behind with her “death.” Then there is the issue of Lan. I realize he is married and learning to enjoy life again, but who can say how he would react if Moiraine were to return before time? He might feel honorbound to return to Moiraine (he did make certain vows to her) and demand Myrelle transfer the bond back, while believing his marriage is enough of a bond to Nynaeve. After all, he still belongs to her, but no need for her to suffer after his death via the broken bond. Maybe not, but it’s a possible issue better left moot

Pg. 495, 496 Amys kisses Berelain’s forehead and both cheeks as she would a daughter, but no telling which of the two it is. Probably it’s Berelain by the way the WO and Rhuarc sometimes (note, not all the time) treat her. She says Rhuarc reminds her of her father too much some times and grimaces. “I have dealt with Aes Sedai before,” the woman said dryly (to Egwene). “Berelain said in a carefully neutral voice, ‘I would appreciate it if you did not tell Rhuarc.’” The W.O. agree not to tell. I think Rhuarc has noticed the dichotomy in Berelain, and she was going to the W.O. for advice on how to handle it. Also to let them know how Berelain and Ber would be adapting their “roles.” There are a few times when they are in a scene together that Rhuarc seems pensive over Ber/Berelain, like he’s trying to figure something out.

Pg. 624 Berelain seems to have gone into hiding and only bothers to see those she must. Rhuarc even started taking her to task, but it doesn’t do any good. This may be Ber and Berelain plotting which of them to be seen when, and for what reasons (busy with something anyway). I think Berelain was to be the one in the open with the day to day running of Cairhien and dealing with Rhuarc, but when events called for Aes Sedai business involving the Dragon Reborn, Ber came out.

Pg. 885 A man in white will make her fall head over heels; Min’s viewing. This goes back to Moiraine saying she probably knows the face of her husband, and saying nothing of love at the time. When Faile dies, Perrin will put on white, which is the customary color of mourning in Two Rivers. Nynaeve reveals this (off screen actually), and Elayne picks it up when Nynaeve and Elayne are going to Mat to apologize for mistreating him in aCoS. Ber will then fall in love.

Pg. 887 - 893 Berelain is chasing Perrin around the palace. I think this is the real Berelain. She’s acting the scamp, has had an eye on Perrin since the Stone anyway, and Ber can see it as a possible “assist” for her future, so makes no complaint.

Pg. 925 Ber brings Rand’s sword to Perrin’s rooms and everyone realizes he’s been taken. Moi rooting around in Rand’s stuff after his disappearance after dealing with AS sounds right. Berelain going through his stuff does not. No reason for real Berelain to do that, and after Rand scared the peawads out of her in tSR, I don’t see her taking the initiative. Once more, this is Moi doing her best to see that Rand makes it to Tarmon Gaidon prepared. (Here is a little note that troubles me; it doesn’t have to mean anything, and it’s no proof against my theory, but it’s still strange; Ber brought the sword wrapped in a blanket. Why? This is the exact same way Aviendha brought the sword to Rand, because an Aiel won’t touch a sword)

A Crown of Swords -

Pg. 412 Ber is furious about Rand sending her back to Mayene. He wonders why she desperately wants the thankless job of running Cairhien. Actually, Ber just wants to stay close to Rand, which is to be expected, considering how desperate Moiraine was before her “death” to stay close to Rand and see him properly prepared for Tarmon Gaidon. She’s saying, “Why are you sending me away? We had a deal remember! I obey, and you keep me close to listen to my advice.”

Pg. 416 After Cadsuane barges in, Ber stands gaping like the others, but not because of all the hubub; she would have been under the impression that Cadsuane was dead too, but she certainly can’t voice it.

Pg. 417 “My Lord Dragon, I will serve you wherever and however you desire.” Ber to Rand as Cadsuane asks her to leave the room. Sounds like Moiraine’s Oath to obey from tFoH.

Pg. 565 “The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills,” Perrin said. Loial blinked at that echo of Moiraine. Perrin had been thinking of her a lot recently, the passage says. Unknowingly, I think his senses have been cued by Ber, but the idea would never occur to him. Moiraine and Berelain? One and the same? No way he’d come to that conclusion.

Pg 571 From this page on, Ber/Moi must be with Perrin; they go to Ghealdan. Why is Ber casually giving up her place in Cairhien, next to Rand, after the big to-do just before Cadsuane made her appearance? Because she knows, if she doesn’t take at least this much, Rand will be sending her back to Mayene where she can do exactly squat to help Rand along. With Perrin, she gets to assist Rand in more than a small way. Also, Moi is aware of what her future holds, which is Perrin.

Pg. 674 Min talks of Ber chatting with the Sea Folk. This doesn’t sound so much Berelain as it does Moiraine doing as much as she can for the Dragon to succeed. Sure, the Sea Folk are not something to be shrugged off, and Berelain has the responsibility of Cairhien, where the Folk are anchored, so she has a good reason to speak with them. But Ber has been spending much time with the Folk, not just making the dutiful visit of Cairhien’s regent.

Path of Daggers -

Pg. 170 Ber is wearing much more sensible clothing, and has been since leaving Cairhien, even at times when she is “working on” Perrin. The beginning of her conservative transition.

Pg. 663 Once again (very common now) Ber is dressed very conservatively. The dresses go all the way up to her chin now.

Winter’s Heart -

This is mentioned in PoD and WH, so no page number. Ber was the only one to escape the Aiel when they took Faile. Ber was not the ONLY one on a horse, but for some reason, she WAS the only one to escape. This wouldn’t be too difficult for an AS familiar with the Mask of Mirrors.

Pg. 104 “Sometimes you are a very large fool, Perrin Aybara. Quite often in fact.” Annoura after Perrin snarls at Ber to cut her act. Faile has already been taken, so this makes very little sense, her saying that to Perrin after his losing control. All he did was tell her to stop teasing him, if it was heated in its delivery. Perrin didn’t understand why she said that either. Perrin thinks to himself that Annoura seems to take pleasure in Ber’s pursuit, and even aids her now and again. So Annoura knows who Ber is, and gives a hint that things are not as Perrin believes.

Pg. 145 When Perrin was in Tel’aran’rhiod searching for Faile, he was there overlong and too “deeply,” for lack of a better word. Ber says that he felt like he was already dead, soulless. Annoura had confirmed this with a previous touch. A rather interesting talent for the apparent First of Mayene. Sounds more like the talent of someone like Verin or Moiraine.

Pg. 146 “She would do what she promised, but like an AS, for her own reasons, and the things she had made no promises about could stab you in the back." Perrin thinking to himself about Ber. Whatever reason Perrin had to think this, Jordan had a good reason to print it.

Pg 146 "I want you to know that no one hopes Faile is alive more than I." And "Her expression was so open and honest...she even managed to smell honest!" Ber may realize that Faile has something she needs to accomplish yet before her end; something that pulls Perrin to act a certain way, or something she (Faile) just has to do herself, that helps set the Pattern correctly. She may also have already begun developing deep feelings for Perrin and doesn’t relish the idea of him suffering over Faile’s death.

Pg. 146 She said firmly, "You can’t just ignore Aes Sedai. You are not Rand al’Thor, as they will prove to you sooner or later." Hint, hint. This could also be taken as foreshadowing.

Pg. 147 “But she left the tent, letting in a swirl of cold air. In her displeasure, she did not even bother to take a cloak." Once more, Jordan is printing this for a good reason, and it’s not to tell us that Ber is really upset.

Pg. 150 "Despite what you may have heard, you will be only the third man to share my bed." And, "The other two were politics. You will be pleasure. In more ways than one," she finished with a surprising touch of bite. Yes, it will be a pleasure, especially when he finds out the new woman in his life is not only an Aes Sedai, but his old, dead (?) friend, Moiraine.

__________

That is all the information I have collected in my reread. While nothing is conclusive (hardly that) concerning my theory that Ber is Moi, it is obvious that the woman with Perrin (most believe, I’m sure, she is the very same Berelain from the start), is Aes Sedai. Taking my theory for truth, I will explain the ending concerning Ber and Perrin.

Faile is destined to die. For a list of foreshadow: the Broken Crown, the Man in White vision, white being the color of mourning in Emond’s Field, Perrin and Faile discussing her death and that Perrin is expected to move on after proper mourning to a woman Faile would approve of, the vision of Aram stepping closer and closer to Perrin and the increasing feeling of doom (Aram may help urge Perrin to fight to get Faile back and that causes her death), and the vision of Perrin running away from the Tinker (guilt for taking the bait to fight, resulting in Faile’s death).

After Faile dies, Perrin will put on Two Rivers white and mourn her. Ber’s heart will ache for his pain, and she will then fall in love with her man in white. The “image” of raising Manetheren from its ashes will become a reality, and Perrin will end up assuming the throne of the new land, with his Aes Sedai wife, Moiraine. This follows the foreshadowing by Faile: the Aes Sedai queen and Warder king of Manetheren, and his remarrying of someone she approves of. This may or may not happen before Tarmon Gaidon (their union and rise to the throne), but either way, Perrin will be able to bring a large chunk of the Westlands to Rand’s aid for the Last Battle.

And THAT, as they say, is that.

David Selig
08-23-2011, 09:45 AM
Awesome theory, thanks for posting it.

Anyway, while I rereading ToM, I noticed that Berelain's explanation to Faile why she was chasing Perrin doesn't make much sense. She claimed that she thought Rand wanted her to hook up with Perrin as a political move to tie her and Mayene more firmly to his cause and that's why he sent her with Perrin on the mission in Ghealdan. But at this point Perrin was already married to Faile and that marriage is much more beneficial to Rand politically since the tiny Mayene really can't be compared to Saldaea in terms of what it can offer to Rand. Even House Bashere on its own probably has much bigger armies and lands than Mayene. Plus why would Rand want to anger one of his top advisers Davram Bashere by ruining his daughter's marriage?

No divorces has been mentioned so far in the series, so they must'be extremely rare in Randland. Given that, Berelain's plan to get a political marriage to Perrin after he came back married from Two Rivers was an extremely long shot unless she was planning to assassinate Faile, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Zombie Sammael
08-23-2011, 09:55 AM
No divorces has been mentioned so far in the series, so they must'be extremely rare in Randland.

Hmmm. No tigers have been mentioned, either, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're extinct.

GonzoTheGreat
08-23-2011, 10:01 AM
Sister-wives have been mentioned, and Berelain had been talking to Rhuarc.

Terez
08-23-2011, 10:02 AM
TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 22 - To Make an Anchor Weep

Harine jerked so hard she spilled wine over the back of her hand, then took another long swallow. But, no, Zaida would divorce Amel and marry a ballast stone before she sent Harine din Togara as her ambassador. Still, even the thought of it was enough to make her tongue stick to the roof of her mouth. Even becoming Mistress of the Ships might be insufficient recompense for being forced to endure Cadsuane any longer.
.

David Selig
08-23-2011, 10:09 AM
Yeah, I remember that passage, I was just too lazy to explain it in detail in the previous post. It shows that divorce exists in Randland, but it's only a hypothetical case here. Unless I am forgetting something, we haven't seen any cases of it happening for real, no divorcees or even people thinking about it as an option in their own marriage.

Zombie Sammael
08-23-2011, 10:11 AM
Yeah, I remember that passage, I was just too lazy to explain it in detail in the previous post. It shows that divorce exists in Randland, but it's only a hypothetical case here. Unless I am forgetting something, we haven't seen any cases of it happening for real, no divorcees or even people thinking about it as an option.

We haven't seen anyone battering a fish, either.

JOS
08-23-2011, 10:14 AM
@Ishara: Lots of fun to read, despite what we have learned from ToM.

So now that we know Moiraine is back as herself, what if Thom and Faile fall in battle (or to assasins). This could segway into the Moiraine-Perrin connection.

Davian93
08-23-2011, 11:35 AM
Two things to consider on Perrin's "accidental" walking in on Moiraine in the TDR:

1. Moiraine would be able to sense Perrin coming up to the door as she had healed/delved him before.

2. Moiraine left her door unlocked AND left her robe open.

Clearly, this was a planned seduction in line with Min's visions of them ending up together.

alleluia_cone
08-24-2011, 12:40 AM
Awesome theory, thanks for posting it.

Anyway, while I rereading ToM, I noticed that Berelain's explanation to Faile why she was chasing Perrin doesn't make much sense. She claimed that she thought Rand wanted her to hook up with Perrin as a political move to tie her and Mayene more firmly to his cause and that's why he sent her with Perrin on the mission in Ghealdan. But at this point Perrin was already married to Faile and that marriage is much more beneficial to Rand politically since the tiny Mayene really can't be compared to Saldaea in terms of what it can offer to Rand. Even House Bashere on its own probably has much bigger armies and lands than Mayene. Plus why would Rand want to anger one of his top advisers Davram Bashere by ruining his daughter's marriage?

No divorces has been mentioned so far in the series, so they must'be extremely rare in Randland. Given that, Berelain's plan to get a political marriage to Perrin after he came back married from Two Rivers was an extremely long shot unless she was planning to assassinate Faile, which doesn't seem to be the case.

This whole concept is rather amusing in retrospect now that she'll probably end up marrying Rand's brother, so she'll be tying herself to Rand regardless, perhaps even more so, since she'll be his sister-in-law.

Enigma
08-24-2011, 08:09 AM
Will they ever know the relationship between Galad and Rand? The only person who knows for certain is Rand and he is a bit busy at the moment thought he might drop it into conversation if/when he meets Galad. Moiraine might also know given that she knew a lot of background info about Rand from her search and was around when he leared from the Wiseones about his mum. The Aiel don't know enought about Andoran politics to get a full picture but Moiraine most cerainly would.

Ishara
08-24-2011, 09:30 AM
Awesome theory, thanks for posting it.

Anyway, while I rereading ToM, I noticed that Berelain's explanation to Faile why she was chasing Perrin doesn't make much sense. She claimed that she thought Rand wanted her to hook up with Perrin as a political move to tie her and Mayene more firmly to his cause and that's why he sent her with Perrin on the mission in Ghealdan. But at this point Perrin was already married to Faile and that marriage is much more beneficial to Rand politically since the tiny Mayene really can't be compared to Saldaea in terms of what it can offer to Rand. Even House Bashere on its own probably has much bigger armies and lands than Mayene. Plus why would Rand want to anger one of his top advisers Davram Bashere by ruining his daughter's marriage?

No divorces has been mentioned so far in the series, so they must'be extremely rare in Randland. Given that, Berelain's plan to get a political marriage to Perrin after he came back married from Two Rivers was an extremely long shot unless she was planning to assassinate Faile, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Well, my personal feelings on berelian are fairly well known, but I chalk it up to the fact that she's the kind of woman who has no respect for boundaries or the intentions of others when those intentions stand in her way.

I'm annoyed with myself because I can't seem to find ANY of my previous posts on Berelain on yuku, or here. Which is frustrating because I know I've articulated my dislike of her before...

GonzoTheGreat
08-24-2011, 09:50 AM
I'm annoyed with myself because I can't seem to find ANY of my previous posts on Berelain on yuku, or here. Which is frustrating because I know I've articulated my dislike of her before...You mention her here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2438&highlight=berelain).
You also mention her here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3526&highlight=berelain&page=2).
And, apparently, in this thread too (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4070&highlight=berelain), though I haven't found precisely where, yet. Guess that's a case of read and find out.

I used the "Advanced search", and looked for Berelain, with you as poster. More threads were shown, but I haven't bothered checking them. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.

Ishara
08-24-2011, 11:32 AM
Thanks Gonzo - I tried to do that, unsuccessfully from my iPhone. Appreciate you tracking these down for me!

So, the below are mostly re-posts, edited for clarity, spelling and possibly to make more sense.

~~~~~~~~~~
Her Eventual Fate:

I could see her taking the Seanchan Oath, but only if it got her more to rule. She strikes me as pragmatic that way.

Of course, given what happened in the LAST book, and our presumed outcome of the Last Battle, why on earth would the Whitecloaks stand for following Seanchan rule? Seems to me like they could be reabsorbed into their home countries, Amadacia could stay under Seanchan rule and Galad could happily go tromping about with Berelain as a Regent of Mayene (and likely more) with a free conscience.

Her Sexual Aggressiveness:

People like to suggest that Berelain gets a bum rap from all the other women in the series (and lots of readers) because she's pretty and she knows it. We've been told that women just get pissy about it because they're (we're?) so repressed, which explains why the Aiel, who have the fewest sexual hangups of any culture we've met so far, were the first to see Berelain's true value. (This is a slightly reworded quote from one of the threads Gonzo posted, I belive from namless, but the argument is a common one.)

My response is that she gets a bum rap because she's a conniving bitch. I don't care how many men she's slept with. Chasing after another woman's husband is despicable. Doing it for fun, for some game...is just wrong. What exactly is her true value? She has administrative skill and saavy? Oh wait! So do half the other women in this series. She has political power? Ha! Again, so do half of the women in the series, and of bigger and better things than Mayene. Pfft.

My prime areas of difficulty with Berelain are her lack of loyalty (to anyone), and her rampant pursuit of a man who is i) married, and ii) vocally and obviously in love with his wife (which I'll admit are not mutually exclusive). Her lack of respect in that area disgust me sure, but her sexual experience, and the reasons for which she developed that experience? No. Which leads me to:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian
I think Berelain made her own bed to an extent. First she went after Rand, then Perrin, and even though we suspected it was only for reasons of power, she came off as oversexed and disrespectful. Having three partners doesn't equate to being a tramp, certainly. But being sexually aggressive to the point where she could break up an otherwise happy marriage doesn't help.

I don't disagree that it perpetuates misogyny...and I know I'm a man and not a woman...but I think "rampant" might be a bit strong. Certainly there is thinly veiled and/ or latent misogyny among some posters, and it's hard to find men who don't hate Egwene or Faile. But among most of the elder posters, at least, misogyny doesn't seem to fit.

Maybe I'm obtuse.

1. Of course she did (make her own bed). Her reputation from the perspective of other characters (Faile and Elayne, say) is justified, given that they do not have all the facts. We do.

2. It's her sexual aggressiveness in the face of opposition that bothers me - not her sexuality.

3. Rampant may have been a bit strong, but to be clear, I certainly wasn't restricting it to any demographic of posters. I think you can dislike Egwene (or Faile, or Elayne or Nynaeve) without being a misogynist, but the ones who hate on every move, action, thought, page...those make me agree with:

Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael
I've often suspected that a lot of the anti-Egwene sentiment comes from a dislike certain posters have toward a powerful, successful, and above all ambitious woman achieving her goals. Certainly a lot of people seem to hold her to a higher standard than the male... oh Light I just turned this into an Egwene-bashing thread didn't I?

To which: a) yes, and b) LOL. People seemed to hate way less on on Siuan (who held her power almost as an asexual being, and was more masculine in her behaviours) than they do on Egwene. I'm sure that there are many reasons for that, but at the very least a latent sense of misogyny exists, albeit perhaps not in every person in every case. Which agrees with:

Originally Posted by sandoz12
Not all people who hate Egwene are misogynists but some certainly are. In the same way not all misogynists hate Egwene. I can see a Venn diagram with two circles misogynists and non-misogynists with sections of each circle going into the Egwene-hating circle.
Agree.

Note that this is NOT an Egwene thread. I am pulling my own thoughts up rom other older posts to try and explain my complex feelings regarding Berelain.

Davian93
08-24-2011, 12:08 PM
Berelain is the ruler of a tiny, overlooked but coveted city-state. Everything she has ever done has been to ensure the survival and prosperity of her small country.

Her game with Faile is justified in that Faile started the issue by challenging her to a fight and then attacking her. Faile is the one that turned it into uneccessary rivalry with her insecurities. Berelain just enjoys tweaking what she sees as a lesser person with those insecurities.

Berelain is also one of the most capable and loyal supporters that Rand has had. She's one of the very few wetlanders to gain the respect of the Aiel too.

confused at birth
08-24-2011, 01:34 PM
plus shes really hot

well kind of not really my type but lots of people seem to drool over her and i think even cadsuane has a slight crush

Ishara
08-24-2011, 02:27 PM
Berelain is the ruler of a tiny, overlooked but coveted city-state. Everything she has ever done has been to ensure the survival and prosperity of her small country. Agreed - but you'll note that I don't object to her using her sexuality as a weapon against the stupid nobles in Tear, do I? But to say that her actions towards Perrin, her trying to break up a happy marriage and pursuing a married man while his wife is missing? That was not in support of Mayene. She admitted as such and called it a game. That's despicable.

Her game with Faile is justified in that Faile started the issue by challenging her to a fight and then attacking her. Faile is the one that turned it into uneccessary rivalry with her insecurities. Berelain just enjoys tweaking what she sees as a lesser person with those insecurities.
Oh, I think it starte dout that way, which is bad enough. Perrin and Faile were staying together for heaven's sake! It was obvious they were a couple, and you just don't do that if you're a classy girl - which Berelain is not. Faile was immature and had her ass handed to her as punishment, but she fights for what she thinks is hers. The rivalry began when Berelain refused to be satisfied with beating Faile and had to continue trying to tweak her.

To suggest that she's justified in her sexually aggressive pursual of Perrin, when BOTH he and Faile have asked, begged and ordered her to stop is ludicrous.

Berelain is also one of the most capable and loyal supporters that Rand has had. She's one of the very few wetlanders to gain the respect of the Aiel too. Berelain knows where her bread is buttered - she won't be disloyal to Rand partly because she's terrifiedof him, but also because she knows that he is her best chance to increasing her power base. The fact that she's capable is negligible. As I mentioned in my post above, her administration skills are good yes, but no better than those of Suian, Moiraine, Morgase, Elayne, Faile and Leane - to name a few. She's conveniently placed, yes, but not particularly special.

Finally, we don't know for sure WHY the Aiel like and respect her. So, that's not a plus in my books until I have a rationale.

confused at birth
08-24-2011, 04:21 PM
comparing her skills in administration to moraine and faile confuses me. i cant think of when moraine has served in an administration at all
faile might become good at this but there wasnt much to do the two rivers and in perrins army therer are a lot of competent people under her and perrin, berelain are also doing her part.

berelain mostly ran Cairhien by herself with advise from the wise ones and chiefs on dealing with the aiel and rhuarc keeping the peace and getting her intel

she was a pain going after perrin but faile made it worse by not trusting him and not siding with him to make her go away. she admits she played that game herself and if she hadnt berelain could have backed off and saved face.

berelain doesnt seem to think breaking up a husband and wife a big deal so blame her mum and dad for how she was raised. like suldam think they are doing the right thing to because they were told its ok to enslave people.

and if she thinks faile only married him for politics what would braeking them apart matter.

were they staying in the same rooms? faile left in sulk but perrin didnt think it strange that she didnt stay the night

Ishara
08-24-2011, 04:48 PM
comparing her skills in administration to moraine and faile confuses me. i cant think of when moraine has served in an administration at all
faile might become good at this but there wasnt much to do the two rivers and in perrins army therer are a lot of competent people under her and perrin, berelain are also doing her part.

berelain mostly ran Cairhien by herself with advise from the wise ones and chiefs on dealing with the aiel and rhuarc keeping the peace and getting her intel
Both Moiraine and Faile came from High Born ruling families and were exposed to the practice and theory of running huge households and cities. Those would have been skills they would started to learn at a very young age, which is consistent with the role women played in their cultures.

I don't deny that Berelain AND Dobraine played a large role in running Cairhien smoothly. But just because she did a good job doesn't mean that someone else couldn't have done the same. We've seen direct evidence of Faile's ability to collect intel - especially in Cairhien - and if Rand had known who Faile was (beyond Perrin's girlfriend) then he would have also called upon her skills.

she was a pain going after perrin but faile made it worse by not trusting him and not siding with him to make her go away. she admits she played that game herself and if she hadnt berelain could have backed off and saved face.

berelain doesnt seem to think breaking up a husband and wife a big deal so blame her mum and dad for how she was raised. like suldam think they are doing the right thing to because they were told its ok to enslave people.

and if she thinks faile only married him for politics what would braeking them apart matter.
The fact that "saving face" would have an impact on her continuing to harass a married man and put significant strain on his marriage is further evidence that she's not a classy girl. I don't think that Berelain didn't think it was wrong, I think she knew it was and delighted in doing it anyways. She doesn't care about others. Just herself and her own advancement and/ or amusement. The suggestion that she may have felt that their marriage was for political reasons is again wrong. She didn't know who Faile was, and Perrin was a blacksmith when she first met him. He grew into his role during their travels. How would their marriage have been political? Nevermind the fact that Berelain, more than most, would understand that political unions are sometimes more important and more strategically necessary than love-matches. If she thought that Rand had set them up for a reason, there's no way she would have stepped in.

confused at birth
08-24-2011, 05:09 PM
being taught something doesnt make you good at it no matter how well you learnt the classroom isnt real life so they may have been good students but crack in real life when they dont have a back up plan and no one to take over when they hit a snag im not saying it would have happened that way but they have yet to show while berelain has ruled for years

and i might be wrong but i thought after their little talk faile believed that to berelain marriage was only political and as she hadnt actaully been in love before which is why she didnt think it was wrong

Davian93
08-24-2011, 05:22 PM
Both Moiraine and Faile came from High Born ruling families and were exposed to the practice and theory of running huge households and cities. Those would have been skills they would started to learn at a very young age, which is consistent with the role women played in their cultures.

I don't deny that Berelain AND Dobraine played a large role in running Cairhien smoothly. But just because she did a good job doesn't mean that someone else couldn't have done the same. We've seen direct evidence of Faile's ability to collect intel - especially in Cairhien - and if Rand had known who Faile was (beyond Perrin's girlfriend) then he would have also called upon her skills.

The fact that "saving face" would have an impact on her continuing to harass a married man and put significant strain on his marriage is further evidence that she's not a classy girl. I don't think that Berelain didn't think it was wrong, I think she knew it was and delighted in doing it anyways. She doesn't care about others. Just herself and her own advancement and/ or amusement. The suggestion that she may have felt that their marriage was for political reasons is again wrong. She didn't know who Faile was, and Perrin was a blacksmith when she first met him. He grew into his role during their travels. How would their marriage have been political? Nevermind the fact that Berelain, more than most, would understand that political unions are sometimes more important and more strategically necessary than love-matches. If she thought that Rand had set them up for a reason, there's no way she would have stepped in.

If Faile were a little more mature and willing to put the good of the Light over that of her own personal wants, perhaps she should have let Rand know who her father was so he could better utlize her. Instead, she ran off to have her little adventures in the Two Rivers and later with the Shaido while Berelain was busy helping the Lord Dragon in his effort to save the world.

Just selfish.

Juan
08-24-2011, 05:29 PM
Berelain is very socially adept.. She can handle and manipulate people in the environment she's used to-- political one. So when someone untainted by the politics (Perrin) comes along, she finds it fascinating because it's so different. But because she knows she's socially adept, she applies the same rules she would to political people, to Perrin. Which is where she goes wrong. Credit, though, has to be given where it's due.

confused at birth
08-24-2011, 05:30 PM
actually didnt Dobraine take over from her after rand sent her away with perrin.

i thought rand only really trusted Dobraine after he tried to save him

he then proved he works well with rhuarc so they were sent to arad doman together so that he had a pair he trusts and that respect each other on the front lines not somewhere stable even an Aes Sedai could run

GonzoTheGreat
08-25-2011, 05:44 AM
Both Moiraine and Faile came from High Born ruling families and were exposed to the practice and theory of running huge households and cities.So was Weiramon. Do you want to to make and argument in favor of his competence? :p

confused at birth
08-25-2011, 08:57 AM
yes he was very competent at being a moron and getting rands men killed

how many did he manage to get killed in his attack on illian?

Sei'taer
08-25-2011, 10:05 AM
I don't like Berelain. I pretty much agree with all of the reasons Ishara gave.

I would bang her like the Beastie Boys though.

The sheriff's after me for what I did to his daughter I did it like this - I did it like that...

confused at birth
08-25-2011, 10:10 AM
never said i liked her that much she is funny sometimes

I would bang her like the Beastie Boys though

how by throwing something through her window?

Enigma
08-25-2011, 12:03 PM
yes he was very competent at being a moron and getting rands men killed

how many did he manage to get killed in his attack on illian?

Technically given his true allegiance Weiramon was very compitent in getting soldiers sworn to the Light killed.

On the issue of Berelain's compitence as an administrator she does seem to be good at it. By all accounts her city state is well run and prosperous. Yes all nobles get training in that sort of thing but not all of them are very good at it.

There are other women who are probably as good that Rand could use. I saw Elayne and Faile mentioned before. Faile might have the skills but she would not have the political clout that Berelain had. Berelain was the head of a state, a small state but still a state. Faile on the other hand is just a high ranking noble close to a royal family. That would matter. Faile would be totally dependant on Rand's authority where as Berelain would garner some small respect or fear/waryness in her own right.

The reason that Berelain is important and useful is that she has experience and skill but most importantly her interests ally 100% with Rand.

Take Elayne for example. A clever player of the Game of Houses, has the political weight of being the heir to perhaps the most powerful nation in the Westlands, these are all good qualities however Elayne's priorities are No 1 Andor, No 2 The Aes Sedai No 3 Rand.

With a lot of skilled and experienced players Rand would face the problem Hawkwing had when he had a lot of AS governors. Hawkwing was not their number 1 priority, the White Tower was. Due to Mayene's size going with what ever Rand wants is its and Berelain's priority and its not powerful enought for its/her interest to differ from Rands.

Its a pity we never had an RJ written pov from her. I would love to know is she really a nice person who cares about her people with her persuit of Perrin a blip or is she simply clever enought to know that you get more loyalty from your supporters if you appear to care and really we saw her true colours when she went after Perrin. As others have said trying to break up a marriage simply because one half of the couple annoyed you is not cool.

confused at birth
08-25-2011, 02:39 PM
now that i think on it he was very incompitent all he managed to do was get those decent and respectful men with horses killed and let those lazy peasants slack off while their betters were dying for an outland tyrant.

the only thing he did was make those illian bred pigs feel good and feed the aiel savages his own horses

Ishara
08-25-2011, 09:12 PM
If Faile were a little more mature and willing to put the good of the Light over that of her own personal wants, perhaps she should have let Rand know who her father was so he could better utlize her. Instead, she ran off to have her little adventures in the Two Rivers and later with the Shaido while Berelain was busy helping the Lord Dragon in his effort to save the world.

Just selfish.

But I'm not defending Faile - she *is* selfish (or at least she was. She *did* start shit with Berelain. I'll even go so far as to admit that she may have confused Perrin enough in front of others that it could have been perceived to have been a less than solid marriage. But that's not my point.

So was Weiramon. Do you want to to make and argument in favor of his competence? :p

:rolleyes: The roles of women and men in nobility were very different, as you well know. I wasn't saying that Berelain didn't do an excellent job, just that others could have done as good a job.

Davian93
08-25-2011, 09:30 PM
Personally I like both Berelain and Faile and end up defending both of them usually.

confused at birth
08-25-2011, 09:35 PM
i used to like faile then she got married and got really annoying and played really silly games with Berelain and took it out on Perrin for not being able to read her mind.

Davian93
08-25-2011, 09:37 PM
i used to like faile then she got married and got really annoying and played really silly games with Berelain and took it out on Perrin for not being able to read her mind.

She's an insecure 18 year old girl (16 when she met Perrin in TDR)....look at it from that perspective and it all makes sense. Even her issues with Berelain all make sense when you realize she's a younger, not nearly as good looking or as powerful a young woman who is worried "her man" might not really love her despite everything. Berelain is considered the premier beauty in Randland from all accounts...she's basically the Mierin of the 3rd Age. Its only natural that Faile is a tad worried about her.

confused at birth
08-25-2011, 09:44 PM
she might have felt like or even had a good reason for how she acted but i get annoyed be people who break up because one of them never asked the simple question that would have stop the problem before it started.

and a clashing of cultures wouldnt have helped what was going on but after living with him in his homeland she had an idea how he would deal with things.

never got why girls are insecure but ive always been more into slightly older women so i have little experience with teenage girls outside the friend zone

Toss the dice
08-26-2011, 06:35 AM
I don't like Berelain. I pretty much agree with all of the reasons Ishara gave.

I would bang her like the Beastie Boys though.

This. Although, while I really don't like her as a person (she truly is despicable), I don't mind reading about her and like her character.

One more thing. From my take on the descriptions in the books, I wouldn't vote Berelain as the most attractive female of the 3rd Age. That award would go to Sarene Nemdahl.

Berelain is merely a close 2nd, artificially inflated (no pun intended) by the fact that she is the biggest tease in Randland.

David Selig
08-26-2011, 07:42 AM
Whenever Berelain's away from Perrin, she's awesome. But the whole mess with her, Perrin and Faile is one of the worst things in the series for me, really annoying and pointless. Why did Berelain spend so much time chasing this doofus Perrin anyway when she could do so much better? I don't buy her explanation in ToM.

At least now this is over now, finally. And Berelain can get her dream marriage to the best looking guy in Randland who's also related to most of the really powerful persons in Randland (Rand, Elayne, Egwene, even Darlin through Caraline Damodred).

I really want to see Egwene and Elayne's reactions when they learn that Berelain will be their sister-in-law, should be fun.

Toss the dice
08-26-2011, 08:07 AM
That reminds me. From what I can remember, Rand is still the only person who knows Galad is his brother. Do you think that will be revealed in AMoL finally?

GonzoTheGreat
08-26-2011, 08:25 AM
Whenever Berelain's away from Perrin, she's awesome. But the whole mess with her, Perrin and Faile is one of the worst things in the series for me, really annoying and pointless. Why did Berelain spend so much time chasing this doofus Perrin anyway when she could do so much better? I don't buy her explanation in ToM.Tunnel vision. She got focused on a goal, and didn't think of asking herself anymore why she would pursue that goal in the first place.

Much like the Dragon, really, who keeps trying to get in a position where he'll have happiness and sanity in his next life, without seeing that it is all just a phantom, and he would be better off to end it all decisively.

confused at birth
08-26-2011, 12:20 PM
i thought only men got tunnel vision in their lovelives:D

well i guess women can but i would either have to be drunk or she had done something really great before asking.:eek: