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BobH
08-23-2011, 02:03 PM
Before I get into this, I should mention that I've recently read most of the "Faces of Nakomi" thread that Tamyrlin created when ToM first came out, and I did not see this idea mentioned, although it's quite possible I missed it. If I did miss it, and I'm simply rehasing an old discussion, my apologies in advance.

Anyway, I think Aviendha's 2nd trip through the Glass Column ter'angreal, in which she saw the/a future, may actually have triggered Nakomi's appearance. That is, it caused Nakomi to appear prior to Avi's trip through the ter'angreal, to help prepare her (i.e. get her thinking about "important things") for what she was about to see. In other words, it provided her a guide.

The general idea being that, many many years ago, way back when the ter'angreal was set up to show the Aiel their past through their ancestors, it was foreseen that the time would come (coinciding with the arrival of the Car'a'carn) when the ter'angreal would need to show an Aiel their probable future (through her/his? decendents), if their way of thinking at the time weren't dramatically changed, to a vistor who was in a unique position to change it (and who had the, perhaps, unique ability to trigger the "future show"). This could have happened through a Foretelling, say, much like the Foretelling that resulted in the preparation of Callandor for the Dragon Reborn.

So the ter'angreal was arranged to create some sort of temporary TAR-like reality, in which it could manifest a guide to help prepare this particular vistor.

I think this helps explain, amongst other things:

1. Why the whole scene had a TAR-like reality to it.

2. Why Nakomi seemed to have aspects of a relative to Avi. That is, since the ter'angreal works by using ancestors and decendents to show the vistor past & future, it makes sense (to me, at least) that the "guide" would also have aspects of the vistor's relatives. I don't necessarily think it was a particualr relative, but rather it drew on Avi's ancestral time line to create a guide whom Avi would, consciously or subconsciously, find familiar, and therefore be more predisposed to listen to (rather than treat skeptically, say).

The one thing it doesn't explain so well is why Nakomi said she was far from her clan, or perhaps her clan was far from her, when Avi asked about her clan. My thought there is that maybe the ter'angeral was prepared by members of the Jenn, and so the guide they created thinks of herself as Jenn. It seems a lot of readers think Nakomi is/was Jenn, so this idea fits, a little, with those readers' ideas.

Of course I realize this idea is a paradox, but given the use of paradox throughout the series, I think this is actually a point in favor of the idea! :)

This idea really doesn't seem too weird to me, given other weird things that have happened in the series (and by "weird" I mean things that aren't explained through what we would all consider "normal" workings of the Wheel, the Pattern, and its constituents).

As for why I like the idea ... Nakomi's arrival, and more particularly what she got Avi thinking about, are too closely related to what Avi later saw in the ter'angreal to be mere coincidence, I think. That it why I rule out the idea that Nakomi was anyone in disguise, be it Verin, a Forsaken, or a Light or Dark Wise One. Because if I'm right about the two events being related, the disguised person would need to have had some inkling that not only would Avi see the future during her ter'angreal visit, but also have some idea of what she would see. Both of which I find highly unlikely. *shrugs*

Weird Harold
08-23-2011, 07:01 PM
As for why I like the idea ... Nakomi's arrival, and more particularly what she got Avi thinking about, are too closely related to what Avi later saw in the ter'angreal to be mere coincidence, I think.

I think you are correct that Nakomi's visit and what Aviendha experienced in her second trip through the ter'angreal are connected. However. I also think your explanation is far more complicated and "weird" than is required to explain the connection.

Since you read "the faces of nakomi" thread. you should know that I favor the simple explanation that Aviendha's second "trip" through the ter'angreal is a post-hypnotic hallucination, but almost any of the theories presented in that theread are less complicated, and therefore more likely, than your theory.

Davian93
08-23-2011, 10:11 PM
I do like the idea of Nakomi being one of those weird Pattern Level Events (PLE) that we all enjoy.


This is as good, albeit esoteric and far-fetched, a guess as any.


Oh, and Welcome to Theoryland.

BobH
08-24-2011, 11:47 AM
Since you read "the faces of nakomi" thread. you should know that I favor the simple explanation that Aviendha's second "trip" through the ter'angreal is a post-hypnotic hallucination, but almost any of the theories presented in that theread are less complicated, and therefore more likely, than your theory.

I agree that your "post-hypnotic hallucination" idea is simpler, but it relies on a few premises that I disagree with.

-- That Nakomi is an agent of the Dark. I just don't believe this.

-- That said agent knows enough about Avi to create an elaborate hallucination that seems entirely plausible to both Avi and the reader. And why would the agent create a hallucination that had Avi's 4 children capable of channeling from birth? It's a totally trivial thing to include, if the purpose is to manipulate Avi.

-- That said agent would use such an elaborate scheme to manipulate Avi when Compulsion would probably have sufficed (especially if Graendal was the agent, as you suggested).

-- That Avi's 2nd trip through the ter'angreal didn't really occur.

The bottom line is, I think Nakomi was an agent of the Light, and that Avi's 2nd trip through the ter'angreal was "real", and exactly as it was shown to us. And that Nakomi's appearance, and what Avi saw during that 2nd trip, are connected.

Clearly our opinions differ. Which is fine. I'm not claiming my opinions and theories are any more valid than anyone elses. I'm simply trying to find a theory that fits my opinions. :)

As for the other ideas presented in the Faces of Nakomi thread ... the problem I have with all of them is that they don't sufficiently address all 4 of the issues I think any theory on this topic needs to address. Which are:

1. How can Nakomi's appearance, and Avi's 2nd trip through the ter'angreal, be connected?

2. Why did the scene with Nakomi have a TAR-like quality to it?

3. Why did Nakomi have aspects of a relative to Avi?

4. Why did Nakomi respond so cryptically to Avi's question about her clan?

And because of what I believe, the questions need to be addressed within the context of Nakomi being an agent of the Light.

The various theories in the thread address some of these issues, but not all of them together. At least, not sufficiently to me. Which is what ultimately lead me to my idea - it was the only way I could think of to satisfactorily answer all of these questions. I agree that the idea is complicated and far-fetched, but I couldn't think of a simpler one.

BobH
08-24-2011, 12:08 PM
I do like the idea of Nakomi being one of those weird Pattern Level Events (PLE) that we all enjoy.

It's not that I prefer a PLE explanation (although they can be fun, I agree), it's just that I couldn't think of any non-PLE explanations that satisfactorily addressed all of the questions I had about that scene.

See my reply to Weird Harold.

This is as good, albeit esoteric and far-fetched, a guess as any.

Thanks, I agree that it is far-fetched. I tried fetching closer to home, but nothing seemed to work (well enough for me, anyway). :)

Oh, and Welcome to Theoryland.

Thank you. It's good to be here.

Juan
08-24-2011, 12:53 PM
People usually divide between Nakomi being evil or being good. Or perhaps more precisely, an agent of the shadow or the light.

Weird idea:
What if.... Nakomi was an agent of the eel and aelfinn. I mean they seem to be the ones who live beyond the ter'angreal doors which connect to their world. And if Avi is going through them.. Well you can see how they might be related. Also, they're the ones who can see into the future and all that good stuff. I think it makes more sense than many of the other ideas.

Weird Harold
08-24-2011, 02:02 PM
I agree that your "post-hypnotic hallucination" idea is simpler, but it relies on a few premises that I disagree with.

-- That Nakomi is an agent of the Dark. I just don't believe this.

I don't really make any determination as to motive; the method works for anyone willing to use compulsion or some other hypnotism analog. Granted, more DF's than LFs or neutrals fit that profile but anyone with an agenda and the ability to fog aviendha's mind could use the method I proposed.

-- That said agent knows enough about Avi to create an elaborate hallucination that seems entirely plausible to both Avi and the reader. And why would the agent create a hallucination that had Avi's 4 children capable of channeling from birth? It's a totally trivial thing to include, if the purpose is to manipulate Avi.

You apparently missed the assertion that the T'A'R-like events were Aviendha's momentary escapes from a trance state where she was being interrogated -- anything that Aviendha knew or feared would be available to the interrogator. Chief among those bits of information would be where Aviendha was going and what she intended to do there.

-- That said agent would use such an elaborate scheme to manipulate Avi when Compulsion would probably have sufficed (especially if Graendal was the agent, as you suggested).

Complicated manipulation is Greandal's style. but she's just one of many suspects from the full spectrum of alignments.

-- That Avi's 2nd trip through the ter'angreal didn't really occur.

This is the key point where everyone objects to Svengali Nakomi, but even without Nakomi's involvement, the second trip is a complete reversal of how the ter'angreal was generally understood to work; impossible details like Aviendha's children bein able to channel at birth also overturn the way the WOT cosmology has been understood.

There is more evidence, to my mind, that the second trip never happened than there is that it did -- no matter what Aviendha might have perceived.

JOS
08-24-2011, 02:39 PM
the second trip is a complete reversal of how the ter'angreal was generally understood to work;

There is more evidence, to my mind, that the second trip never happened than there is that it did -- no matter what Aviendha might have perceived.

I think it is worthwhile to bring up Aviendha's known and also suspected/disputed talents.

First: We know that she has a talent for identifying what ter'angreal do. Could this talent have helped her to understand that the columns did more than what they appeared to do?

Second: There is also the disputed talent of "special" gateways that she may make. If she has a talent for manipulating/bending time, the talent could be applied to the use of the columns and modify the outcome. Consider Nynaeve's test for Aes Sedai. Her experience in the testing ter'angreal was drastically modified by her experience with TAR. Egwene feared what would happen if she took the test. Aveindha's abilty to touch the future, combined with the ter'angreal's ability to delve the history of the ancestors of those that enter, could have constructed a vision of a possible future. This extrapolation would be based on the best available information, gathered by the ter'angreal from Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs over the history of the Aiel, as well as from Aviendha's own mind and history. The columns do some "calculations" and run a "model" of the most probable future outcome.

BobH
08-24-2011, 02:44 PM
You apparently missed the assertion that the T'A'R-like events were Aviendha's momentary escapes from a trance state where she was being interrogated -- anything that Aviendha knew or feared would be available to the interrogator. Chief among those bits of information would be where Aviendha was going and what she intended to do there.

OK, that's reasonable. But it doesn't explain why the interrogator would implant the info about Avi's children being able to channel from birth. What purpose could that possibly serve, in terms of furthering the interrogator's agenda?

This is the key point where everyone objects to Svengali Nakomi, but even without Nakomi's involvement, the second trip is a complete reversal of how the ter'angreal was generally understood to work; impossible details like Aviendha's children bein able to channel at birth also overturn the way the WOT cosmology has been understood.

There is more evidence, to my mind, that the second trip never happened than there is that it did -- no matter what Aviendha might have perceived.

I agree that the 2nd trip, if real, was a complete reversal of what we knew of that ter'angreal's abilities. But Min, the 'finn, and the 3 Arches ter'angreal in Rhuidean are all able to provide info about the future, so I see no reason why the Glass Columns ter'angreal couldn't also. That part of it is nothing new, re WoT cosmology.

To me, it's far more likely that the Glass Columns ter'angreal had the yet-to-be-revealed ability to show the future (just like Mat's ashanderei had the yet-to-be-revealed ability to provide Mat with the means to leave the land of the 'finn), and happened to show Avi that her children would channel from birth (because it's true), than it is that some nefarious person implanted that (almost certainly false, in this case) info in Avi's head, that serves no purpose.

Weird Harold
08-24-2011, 06:11 PM
But it doesn't explain why the interrogator would implant the info about Avi's children being able to channel from birth. What purpose could that possibly serve, in terms of furthering the interrogator's agenda?

That assumes that everything Aviendha experienced was the result of Nakomi's direct instruction. Verin's suggestion weave, cobbled together from a hundred or so "selfish brat" wilders, leaves motivation up to the victim's subconcious. There's no reason to assume that whatever suggestion implanted in Aviendha was complete and detailed in every respect -- i.e. that the descriptions and abilities of Aviendha's children came from Nakomi instead of Aviendha's subconscious.

I agree that the 2nd trip, if real, was a complete reversal of what we knew of that ter'angreal's abilities. But Min, the 'finn, and the 3 Arches ter'angreal in Rhuidean are all able to provide info about the future, so I see no reason why the Glass Columns ter'angreal couldn't also. That part of it is nothing new, re WoT cosmology.

That's a bit like saying spreadsheets and accounting software manipulate numbers so a word processor or game program should be expected to manipulate numbers with the same facility.

We know the glass columns keyed on blood ties/blood memories to show a supplicant's family connection to Aiel history -- absolute, unchangeable, history.

Most speculators concede that Aviendha can change the "history" she saw in the second trip, which is just one way that the two sets of visions differ at a fundamental level.

To me, it's far more likely that the Glass Columns ter'angreal had the yet-to-be-revealed ability to show the future ... and happened to show Avi that her children would channel from birth (because it's true), ....

Since Channeling seems to be linked to puberty it is extremely unlikely that Aviemdha's -- or anyone's -- children should be able to channel from birth. I shudder to think what an infant or toddler might might do with the ability to Channel but without at least a teenager's ability to forsee consequences.

The 'ability' of Aviendha's children to channel from birth is one of the impossibilities within Aviendha's second 'trip' that make a post-hypnotic hallucination more likely than a true vision of the future (or even a possible future.)

Whether that particular impossibililty is a product of Aviendha's subconscious fears or a deliberate and specific insertion by Nakomi, the impossibility of four infants being able to Channel from birth casts doubt on the entire experience. Combined with the similarity of Aviendha's conversation with Nakomi to dozens of descriptions of drug-assisted interrogations from the victim's POV -- esp. where the victim drifts in and out of lucidity -- I really have trouble understanding how anyone can think Aviendha's "second trip through the columns" has even one iota of truth in it.

Lupusdeusest
08-25-2011, 08:58 AM
When I read Nakomi's words and actions again, I get a very strong impression she is craftily nudging Avi into thinking those things herself. If we look at the Accepted t'a it takes what you expect to be the future or worst case scenario future in your head and mixes it with a bit of truth and then some dreamy crazy. Could not the columns be the same on the reverse trip?
(What happens to those who enter the wrong side of the arches? Is there a wrong side to the arches? We know the result of such an event for the oval t'a, but whilst it is still t'a'r based, it is another kettle of silverpike.)

Davian93
08-25-2011, 10:09 AM
I think Avi just accidentally made some Peyote tea one night on her way to Rhuidean...the entire trip was in her mind.

Lupusdeusest
08-26-2011, 12:29 AM
I think Avi just accidentally made some Peyote tea one night on her way to Rhuidean...the entire trip was in her mind.

Oosquai! Too much oosquai!
That must have been what was in the "water"skins. Perhaps an integral part of the vision-inducing ceremony? Sounds like elements of a Native American ceremony.
(Felix is better than me at this.)

the_collective
09-14-2011, 05:29 PM
It occurred to me today that this quote may be relevant to the discussion:

The Great Hunt, Chapter 36: Among the Elders:

"What we need," Hurin said diffidently, "is one of those Portal Stones." He looked at Alar, then Verin, and when neither told him to stop, he went on, sounding increasingly confident. "The Lady Selene said those old Aes Sedai had studied those worlds, and that was how they knew how to make the Ways. And that place we were...well, it took us two days--less--to travel a hundred leagues. If we could use a Portal Stone to go to that world, or one like it, why, it'd take no more than a week or two to reach the Aryth Ocean, and we could come back right on Toman Head. Maybe it isn't so quick as the Ways, but it's a long sight quicker than riding off west. What do you say, Lord Ingtar? Lord Rand?"

Verin answered him. "What you suggest may be possible, sniffer, but as well hope to open this Waygate again and find Machin Shin gone as hope to find a Portal Stone. I know none closer than the Aiel Waste. Though we could go back into Kinslayer's Dagger, if you, or Rand, or Loial think you could find that Stone again."

Then, later:

The Great Hunt, Chapter 37: What Might Be

Verin sighed. "The symbols at the bottom indicate Stones at other places. If you know the trick of it, you could take us, not to this same Stone in another world, but to one of those others there, or even to one of them here. It was something akin to Traveling, I think, but just as no one remembers how to Travel, no one remembers the trick. Without that knowledge, trying it might easily destroy us all." She pointed to two parallel wavy lines crossed by an odd squiggle, carved low on the column. "That indicates a Stone on Toman Head. It is one of three Stones for which I know the symbol; the only one of those three I've ever visited. And what I learned--after nearly being caught by the snows in the Mountains of Mist and freezing my way across Almoth Plain--was absolutely nothing. Do you play at dice, or cards, Rand al'Thor?

Analysis:

So Verin knows three of the symbols (presumably, this means she knows where each of these symbols leads, else there would be no 'meaning' in the symbol - that is, to 'know' a symbol on a Stone is to be aware of what world/location it leads to; you cannot 'know' the one without knowing the other).

Verin has physically been to the location of only one Portal Stone; the one they ultimately arrive at on Toman Head (and she had a rough ride through the Mountains of Mist and Almoth Plain to find it in the first place).

Verin knows the exact location (and, presumably the symbol - afterall, if she knows the exact location of a Stone in the Aiel Waste, where no mapmaker has ever gone, that she has never personally visited, she MUST know the symbol for it) of at least one other Portal Stone located in the Aiel Waste, and this Stone is closer to Stedding Tsofu than the one on Toman Head AND the third Stone that she does not mention the location of. Note that she does NOT include the Stone she heard about on Kinslayer's Dagger in the "three" that she mentions, otherwise she would not need to have Rand or Hurin find it again.

Finally, Verin knows the theory--if not the practical application--of the symbols on the Stones and the difference between World symbols and Location symbols.

Conclusion: A possibility exists (not that it was being contested, specifically) that RJ included this information regarding Verin so that we'd ultimately be able to connect the dots that lead from this statement of hers regarding a Portal Stone in the Aiel Waste (from TGH) all the way to the Nakomi event (in ToM).

This conclusion assumes that there was some significance (see: foreshadowing) in Verin mentioning this Aiel Waste Portal Stone. If this alleged significance does exist, I'm at a loss to figure out what else it could be referring to.

/Aside/
Google Books is awesome! I wouldn't have had any quotes for this post otherwise.

FelixPax
09-14-2011, 09:43 PM
The bottom line is, I think Nakomi was an agent of the Light, and that Avi's 2nd trip through the ter'angreal was "real", and exactly as it was shown to us.

Agent on the side of the Light. FelixPax: Yup.

Regarding Aviendha's 2nd trip, what do you mean by the word "real"?


As for the other ideas presented in the Faces of Nakomi thread ... the problem I have with all of them is that they don't sufficiently address all 4 of the issues I think any theory on this topic needs to address. Which are:

1. How can Nakomi's appearance, and Avi's 2nd trip through the ter'angreal, be connected?

These two events are connected by issues of identity.

Nakomi once was an Aiel women, a member of a Clan. Now Nakomi possesses a new identity inline with her ancestors Oaths to the Aes Sedai.

Aviendha has not yet grasped for certain her very own changing identity. She is a woman between Worlds or Groups. A Warrior. An Apprentice. A Wise One. A Young Woman Who Loves a Man (e.g. Rand). A woman with an Andoran First-Sister (Elayne). Yet Aviendha is an individual who does not know what to believe:


Aviendha hesitated before saying, “I do not know what to believe.” She spoke as quietly as before, yet she sounded angry, and unsure. “There are many beliefs, and the Wise Ones are often silent, as if they do not know the truth. Some say that in following you, we expiate the sin of our ancestors in . . . in failing the Aes Sedai.”

The catch in her voice startled him; he had never considered that she might be as worried as any other Aiel about what he had revealed of their past. Ashamed might be a better word than worried; shame was an important part of ji’e’toh. They were ashamed of what they had been—followers of the Way of the Leaf—and at the same time ashamed that they had abandoned their pledge to it.

“Too many have heard some version of part of the Prophecy of Rhuidean now,” she went on in a more controlled tone, for all the world as if she had heard a word of that prophecy herself before she began training to become a Wise One, “but it has been twisted. They know that you will destroy us . . . ” Her control faltered for the space of one deep breath. “But many believe that you will kill us all in endless dances of the spear, a sacrifice to atone for the sin. Others believe that the bleakness itself is a testing, to wear away all but the hard core before the Last Battle. I have even heard some say that the Aiel are now your dream, and that when you wake from this life, we will be no more.”

A grim set of beliefs, that. Bad enough that he had revealed a past they saw as shaming. It was a wonder they had not all left him. Or gone mad. “What do the Wise Ones believe?” he asked, as quietly as she.

“That what must be, will be. We will save what can be saved, Rand al’Thor. We do not hope to do more.”


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 46 "Other Battles, Other Weapons" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Aviendha, Asmodean



2. Why did the scene with Nakomi have a TAR-like quality to it?

3. Why did Nakomi have aspects of a relative to Avi?

4. Why did Nakomi respond so cryptically to Avi's question about her clan?


Nakomi cooks good food, akin to how the People's camps always have good food.


“Relax, lad. Take life as it comes. Run when you have to, fight when you must, rest when you can.”

“What are you talking about, something?”

“Have some of this pie. Ila doesn’t like me, but she surely feeds me well when I visit. Always good food in the People’s camps.”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 27 "Shelter From the Storm" -- Perrin point of view; with Elyas, Egwene and Tuatha'an in the background


Nakomi is one of those, who have been taken in by the so-called Lost Ones. Tuatha'an. Taken in after Rand's claims of the Aiel's true history, as Tuatha'an or Lost Ones.


Apparently, Bair had already put the matter out of her mind. “There are more Lost Ones in the Three-fold Land than I can ever remember before,” she said to the tent at large. That was what the Aiel had always called the Tinkers, the Tuatha’an.

“They flee the troubles beyond the Dragonwall.” The sneer in Melaine’s voice was clear.

“I have heard,” Amys said slowly, “that some of those who run after the bleakness have gone to the Lost Ones and asked to be taken in.”


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 5 "Among the Wise Ones" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with Amys, Bair, Melaine


Nakomi is one of those, who have abandoned Clan and Sept. Called the Bleakness, by Amys and other Aiel.

Nakomi unlike some, asked to be taken in by the Lost Ones. Others with the Bleakness joined the Shaido Aiel Clans, as the Brotherless. Two different outcomes.


Nakomi no longer chooses to belong nor identify with the Aiel Clans nor Septs. She is an individual trying to follow her Ancestors Oaths, as best as she can.





On the question of how Nakomi's Food & Fire have a TAR like feeling.

That likely has to due with a Talent found among the Tuatha'an or People which Nakomi has learned.


Additionally parts of Earth has been transforming from a Mirror World to a Parallel World. 'Bubbles of Evil' early in the series are one symptom of this. Ghosts appearing are a second symptom. Hinderstap's zombie show is a third symptom of this outcome.


The Dark One can break out fully, only when Time is broken. First Translation: Not linear. Second Translation: All Time exists, as found in the TAR or Dream World.






On Aviendha's visions of the future, at Rhuidean the second time (ToM book)


When did Aviendha's visions of the future begin?
After she touched the Glass Columns, then "She turned from the glass pillars and took a step." (ToM, Chapter 48 "Near Avendesora).
Then Aviendha re-entered the Glass Columns a third time, by taking another step: "Then took a step." (page 718 USA Hardback edition).
Then Aviendha re-entered the Glass Columns a fourth time: "Gritting her teeth, she took a step forward." (page 720)
Then Aviendha re-entered the Glass Columns a fifth time: "Tears streaking her face, she took the next step." (page 723)
Then Aviendha re-entered the Glass Columns a sixth time: "Aviendha took a step forward." (page 727)
Then Aviendha re-entered the Glass Columns a seventh time: "Cringing, closing her eyes, she stepped forward into the very center of the radiant columns." (page 731)
On Aviendha's eighth attempt to re-entered the Glass Columns:

"There had to be more. Angry, she stood up and took another step. Nothing happened. She walked all the way to the edge of the pillars, then turned, furious.

"Show me more," she demanded. "Show me what I did to cause this! It is my lineage that brought us ruin! What is my part in it?

She walked into the pillars again.

Nothing. They seemed dead. She reached out and touched one, but there was no life. No hum, no sense of Power. She closed her eyes, squeezing one more tear from the corner of each eye. The tears trailed down her face, leaving a line of cold wetness on her cheeks.




Recollect Aviendha was allowed to wear the Twisted Dream Ring, her first-sister Elayne lend to her in Caemlyn. (KoD Book)


It is known that the flecked stone Twisted Dream Ring ter’angreal allows one to MOVE INTO THE FUTURE, in a World of Dreams. Nynaeve and Elayne each previously experienced this phenomenon, using Need. See: Lord of Chaos book, Chapter 13 "Under the Dust", for more the whole scene. A short section of chapter is below:


There were no lions, yet what there was was disturbing. It was bright midday, but that did not bother her; time flowed differently here. She and Elayne were holding hands in a cobblestone street, surrounded by buildings of brick and stone. Elaborate cornices and friezes decorated houses and shops alike. Ornate cupolas decorated tile rooftops, and bridges of stone or wood arched across the street, sometimes three or four stories up. Heaps of garbage, old clothes and broken furniture stood piled on street corners, and rats scurried about by the score, sometimes pausing to chitter fearless challenges at them. People dreaming themselves to the brink of Tel’aran’rhiod flickered in and out of existence. A man fell shrieking from one of the bridges and vanished before he hit the cobblestones. A howling woman in a torn dress ran a dozen paces toward them before she too winked out. Truncated screams and shouts echoed through the streets, and sometimes coarse laughter with a maniacal edge.


“I don’t like this,” Elayne said in a worried tone.

In the distance, a great bone-white shaft reared above the city, far overtopping other towers, many of them linked by bridges that made those where they were seem low. They were in Tar Valon, in the part where Nynaeve had caught a glimpse of Leane last time. Leane had not been very forthcoming about what she had been doing; increasing the awe and legend of the mysterious Aes Sedai, she had claimed with a smile.

“It doesn’t matter,” Nynaeve said stoutly. “Nobody in Tar Valon even knows about the World of Dreams. We won’t run into anybody.” Her stomach turned over as a bloody-faced man suddenly appeared, staggering toward them. He had no hands, only spurting stumps.



Question is did Aviendha's Twisted Dream Ring break? Break on the Eighth try?

Recall how this same Twisted Dream Ring reacted to Egwene al'Vere's Accepted Test in Tar Valon?


“Had I done as I should,” Alanna maintained, “it would never have happened. The only time I have ever seen anything like it was once years ago when we tried to use a ter’angreal in the same room with another that may have been in some way related to it. It is extremely rare to find two such as that. The pair of them melted, and every sister within a hundred paces had such a headache for a week that she couldn’t channel a spark. What’s the matter, child?”

Egwene’s hand had tightened around her pouch till the twisted stone ring impressed itself on her palm through the thick cloth. Was it warm? Light, I did it myself.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 23 "Sealed" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view


Sheriam's description of the Three Rounded Silver Arches used for during the Accepted Test in Tar Valon gives some clues, about the Rhuidean version.

“Ter’angreal do many things, child. Like angreal and sa’angreal, they are remnants of the Age of Legends that use the One Power, though they are not quite so rare as the other two. While some ter’angreal must be made to work by Aes Sedai, as this one must, others will do what they do simply with the presence of any woman who can channel. There are even supposed to be some that will function for anyone at all. Unlike angreal and sa’angreal, they were made to do specific things.


The Great Hunt, Chpater 23 "The Testing" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, with Sheriam speaking



Aspects of the World of Dreams, and Earth's Changing World


Birgitte has previously stated at Falme, that All Time exists in a World of Dreams.

The Aelfinn & Eelfinn's Worlds are unique, because All Time exists where Flesh exists too. Those two realms are Parallel Worlds: Dream and Flesh are One.



Rhuidean before Rand and Asmodean's fight in the city, possessed the characteristics of an alternate World.
The Green Man's location, likewise possessed the characteristics of an alternate World in TEotW book.
The Tree of Life currently found in Rhuidean, was not always been in Rhuidean. The Green Man made a comment to Matrim Cauthon about it in TEotW book. Verin's later comments to Siuan & Moiraine that the Tree of Life location from Almoth Plain to Tarabon.

Tamyrlin
09-15-2011, 02:48 AM
As for why I like the idea ... Nakomi's arrival, and more particularly what she got Avi thinking about, are too closely related to what Avi later saw in the ter'angreal to be mere coincidence, I think. That it why I rule out the idea that Nakomi was anyone in disguise, be it Verin, a Forsaken, or a Light or Dark Wise One. Because if I'm right about the two events being related, the disguised person would need to have had some inkling that not only would Avi see the future during her ter'angreal visit, but also have some idea of what she would see. Both of which I find highly unlikely. *shrugs*

I like your idea and it isn't one that came to mind; it's a plausible variation. Nice. Although, I do believe that the Wise One's gift of Dreamwalking is explicitly not discussed by Jordan in any detail whatsoever because it is meant to hide an extremely powerful gift that removes some of the suspense of what we experience as readers. I believe that the Dreamwalking gift can and did make the Wise Ones aware of Aviendha and what she would see in her future and what the future of the Aiel looked like through her lineage and that they used something/someone they saw in their dreamwalking, the idea of her to represent their ideas in a Dream, in order to prepare her for what would happen because they knew she needed to learn something to change the future. But...thanks to my extremely slow re-read I haven't written up the actual theory ever since I brought this up when the book came out...some day soon I hope to have the evidence in hand.

Anyway - to your idea, I do like the thought that, considering what the Ter'angreal shows and how it shows it to the individual using it, that it has a unique connection to the Real World which allows it to manipulate the world, T'A'R and Dreams in such a way that it could do as you theorize.

BobH
09-16-2011, 03:11 PM
Thanks for the kind words re my idea - I appreciate it. :)

Regarding your idea ... I think it plausibly addresses the same set of issues I was trying to address with mine (you seem to have tried to construct a theory around roughly the same set of requirements I did).

You didn't really mention why, with your idea, Nakomi would have responded about her clan so cryptically to Avi. Do you have some thoughts on that? That was the hardest thing to explain, re my own idea.

Our ideas are quite similar, actually. They both rely on someone(s) having foreseen what would happen to Avi, and what she would see, in that ter'angreal, and so arranged a guide to help her. Just the timing of the foreseeing, and the mechanism for arranging the guide, are different. My idea requires a little more WoT-magic than yours, in that respect, which probably makes it less likely.

BobH
09-16-2011, 04:20 PM
Thanks for the detailed reply. I will try to summarize and respond to some of your key points. But first, I will answer your question.

When I suggested that Avi's future-seeing trip through the ter'angreal was "real", I meant "real" in the same way that the past-seeing trips are "real". That is, Avi triggered the ter'angreal to show her the/a future through her descendants, and that's exactly what happened, and all that happend; there wasn't a behind-the-scenes force manipulating events there. I was trying to distinguish that from Weird Harold's idea that Avi's future-seeing trip had nothing to do with the ter'angreal, but was, rather, some sort of post-hypnotic suggestion, or false memory implant, or something along those lines.

Now, on to your key points (as I understand them).

1) Nakomi has left her clan and joined the Traveling People.

That would explain her cryptic comments about her clan to Avi very well, especially the "perhaps they are far from me" part. If she truely has embraced the Way of the Leaf as the proper Aiel way of life, then you can see how she'd think her former clan were far from her (i.e. far from their proper purpose) more so than her being far from THEM.

By itself, I think it's quite plausible.

2) Connecting Nakomi and Avi's future-seeing trip in the ter'angreal through "identity".

I agree with your (astute) comments there, but I think the connection was more tangible than that. What I was trying to say is, I beleive Nakomi's appearance was arranged (somehow, by someone(s)) because of what Avi would see during her future-seeing trip in the ter'angreal.

Tamyrlin suggests Nakomi's visit was arranged by the Aiel Dreamwalkers, which seems to fit with your comment that Amys likely knew Nakomi had joined the People (which I think is plausible, too). If so, she could very well have used Nakomi for the purpose of guiding Avi.

3) Nakomi's Food & Fire having a TAR like feeling likely has to due with a Talent found among the Tuatha'an or People which Nakomi has learned.

Possibly, but my gut-feeling is that there was more to the TAR-like quality of the scene than that. Specifically, that it was NEEDED for the scene to occur as it did, not just an incidental by-product of the scene.

4) Avi's twisted Dream Ring ter'angreal played some part in enabling her future-seeing trip through the Rhuidean ter'angreal.

I'm not really sure what point you were trying to make, there. It's possible you are right, but I'm not sure how it is relevant to solving the riddles here, aside from the riddle of why the ter'angreal showed the future in the first place.

Was that all you were trying to address?

5) Aspects of the World of Dreams, and Earth's Changing World.

Your observations in that section are interesting, but I'm not sure how they shed light on the riddles under discussion.