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FelixPax
08-25-2011, 07:17 PM
true it seems more fun to sit on the edge and throw things in to keep them going until they fall asleep

on the topic of throwing things in egwene thinks that when skimming if she falls off she would be ok but someone who cant channel will die falling. so how did they test this because i wouldnt just take her word on it, do you think they just kicked an aes sedai and her warder off to see what would happen?

Egwene al'Vere would be okay, because she is a Dreamer. Any Dreamer should be okay if they fell off a Skimming platform. One problem is for non-Dreamer's, is the Skimming platform occurs outside a Mirror World, say 'Earth'. Whereas, Traveling gateway occurs within a given World. This distinction is one reason, why Moghedien wasn't safe skimming to visit Shayol Ghul.


I do wonder if Trollocs could survive moving from place to place via a Skimming platform?
Hmm...

confused at birth
08-25-2011, 07:20 PM
what did i miss i dont remember skimming and dreaming having a link?:confused::confused::(

this was more about how they tested it, maybe this was tested after bryne said he didnt have enough pikes for heads will all the dragonsworn they have come across.

GonzoTheGreat
08-26-2011, 03:46 AM
I do wonder if Trollocs could survive moving from place to place via a Skimming platform?
Hmm...No, they could not survive that. They would start feeling peckish halfway through, and eat the Skimmmer. After which the skimming platform would disappear, of course, and the Trollocs would all die.

Really, this is rather elementary. If it could be done, then it would have been done. So the fact that it hadn't been done proves my explanation to be accurate.

GonzoTheGreat
08-26-2011, 08:47 AM
Hasn't any one ever wondered how Myrddraal can move from place to place, on an edge of a Shadow?

Do Myrddraal Skim? No. If they did, then Aginor would have figured that out, when he did his research into how exactly they moved around.
Do you have evidence from the books to show that Aginor was not capable of Skimming?

Sei'taer
08-26-2011, 09:11 AM
No. If they did, then Aginor would have figured that out, when he did his research into how exactly they moved around.
Do you have evidence from the books to show that Aginor was not capable of Skimming?

Careful, he's cape-able of having anything. You'll find yourself in a viper pit...or a snake pit.

FelixPax
08-26-2011, 11:51 AM
No. If they did, then Aginor would have figured that out, when he did his research into how exactly they moved around.
Do you have evidence from the books to show that Aginor was not capable of Skimming?

I mentioned only characters known to be "alive", who are Dreamer's or Dreamwalkers.

Aginor (Osan'gar) should have known how to Skim. Osan'gar was able to Travel to Aridhol. If Asmodean and Moghedien could separately teach Rand and Egwene Skimming, I'd find it bizarre if Aginor didn't know how.

I wouldn't be shocked if Aginor/Osan'gar was brought back for a third act, in 'A Memory of Light' book, by the Dark One. Why? Chosen supply shortage.

Davian93
08-26-2011, 11:57 AM
Hey, that could be a way of finding male channelers. Why didn't the Red Ajah ever have this idea?

Somehow, I dont think the Red Ajah have that much interest in tasting any male channeler's "Meat".

Toss the dice
08-26-2011, 12:33 PM
Hey, that could be a way of finding male channelers. Why didn't the Red Ajah ever have this idea?

That sounds more like a task for the Green Ajah.

I'm sure Joline would want to taste Mat, just to make sure:

"What are you doing here Joline?" Mat said, trying to keep the irritation out of his voice. He really didn't like the Green.

Joline sniffed. "Be quiet Cauthon, and lie still for me. This needs to be done."

"What are you ... Ahhhhh! Joline!" Several minutes passed by, while Mat watched Joline in utter shock. Her mouth was blue!

Finally finished, Joline raised her head and slowly eased herself off the bed. "Matrim, you'll be happy to know you can't channel."

"I know that already!" Mat shouted at the slender Green. "Mother's milk in your mouth!"

confused at birth
08-26-2011, 01:34 PM
:eek:blue?????????//:eek:
What the hell have you been drinking to cause that?:eek:

the_collective
08-26-2011, 02:00 PM
:eek:blue?????????//:eek:
What the hell have you been drinking to cause that?:eek:

Heh. Heh-heh-heh-heh-heh-heh... yyyyeeeeeeeaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....

Must've been a Slurpee, eh? One of those ones where you mix all the flavors together and shake it up really well...

That was pretty dirty.

Heh.

Toss the dice
08-26-2011, 02:02 PM
:eek:blue?????????//:eek:
What the hell have you been drinking to cause that?:eek:

Joline likes honey buns. With sprinklewort in them. :)

confused at birth
08-26-2011, 02:04 PM
:Di got that but after what she just did he should have been blue:D
the way that was put it was like you thought something out of mat had caused it and i know of nothing that could change the colour of that:D

confused at birth
08-26-2011, 02:06 PM
i think mat likes honey buns the most but cant do anything about it until his wife returns

Toss the dice
08-26-2011, 02:06 PM
Probably was a little lost in translation from my attempt to be vague enough. Lol. Oh well.

confused at birth
08-26-2011, 02:17 PM
none of this has told me where the link from skimming to dreaming is? i cant think of how that came about

The Unreasoner
08-26-2011, 02:21 PM
People generally seem to think the method of making a platform in the skimming space is akin to manipulating the World of Dreams.

confused at birth
08-26-2011, 02:23 PM
but if that was the case when Rand took the Aiel with him wouldnt things have kept appearing all over the place like noobs learning the dream make whatever they think about show up?

The Unreasoner
08-26-2011, 02:33 PM
Maybe only the person who opened the gateway can do it, or maybe there's less to work with. Maybe it requires a greater amount of willpower. I don't know.

confused at birth
08-26-2011, 02:40 PM
well wasnt Rahvin on Rands mind so that wouldnt have been good, and its not like anyone explain the dream rules to him and willpower isnt an issue for him.

im not saying this is wrong i just never looked at it this way before

Zombie Sammael
08-26-2011, 02:55 PM
Idle speculation, but perhaps the explanation is that the Skimming place is a specialised kind of Tel'aran'rhiod with the function of taking one where one needs to go, as opposed to normal TAR which provides whatever the Dreamwalker needs, or thinks they need. With that in mind, the skimming platform would be a function of said need, but its shape, unlike anything else within the skimming space, would be determined by the user. Thus, the skimming space is literally that which the colloquial name implies; a world created for the purpose of skimming.

If it is, then it suggests that creating worlds within TAR is entirely possible.

confused at birth
08-26-2011, 02:57 PM
but then wouldnt you be running the same risks as TAR in the flesh everytime you did it?

The Unreasoner
08-26-2011, 02:58 PM
Living things are likely more complex (and so more difficult to imagine) than a simple brick platform. It may be that the weave is specifically designed to open a gateway into a space with a sort of willpower threshold and a complexity limit.

The Unreasoner
08-26-2011, 03:02 PM
Idle speculation, but perhaps the explanation is that the Skimming place is a specialised kind of Tel'aran'rhiod with the function of taking one where one needs to go, as opposed to normal TAR which provides whatever the Dreamwalker needs, or thinks they need. With that in mind, the skimming platform would be a function of said need, but its shape, unlike anything else within the skimming space, would be determined by the user. Thus, the skimming space is literally that which the colloquial name implies; a world created for the purpose of skimming.

If it is, then it suggests that creating worlds within TAR is entirely possible.
Hmmm...
Maybe the skimming space is a specially manufactured world, like the Ways? Or a world with certain qualities found, then put to use? The weave to open the gateway may have been created post-discovery/creation.

Tamyrlin
08-26-2011, 03:13 PM
Hmmm...
Maybe the skimming space is a specially manufactured world, like the Ways? Or a world with certain qualities found, then put to use? The weave to open the gateway may have been created post-discovery/creation.

Is the Void. It is outside the Pattern.

confused at birth
08-26-2011, 03:16 PM
It is outside the Pattern.

this is what i always thought but Felix keeps saying different and i started thinking i had missed someithing big

Tamyrlin
08-26-2011, 03:26 PM
He tends to mix and match all of the facts we have about all of the Worlds to the point of making those Worlds much more unknown than they are.

We have many facts about Mirror Worlds and Parallel Worlds and TAR, the GOI, the Ways and the Skimming Space and how they relate to the "real" world. The only "World" that has little to no explanation would be Perpendicular Worlds.

The Unreasoner
08-26-2011, 03:31 PM
Is the Void. It is outside the Pattern.

Okay. But the weave itself could have been constructed to serve a certain purpose, giving the Void properties it would not normally have.

For instance, a limit on creating things from the mind, or perhaps the actual ability to create from the mind itself?

Edited to add:
And air. Musn't forget air.

The Unreasoner
08-26-2011, 03:32 PM
I still think perpendicular worlds don't exist. All worlds are Parallel to Time, some are Parallel to their mirrors, some may intersect with other worlds.

Tamyrlin
08-26-2011, 03:36 PM
I still think perpendicular worlds don't exist. All worlds are Parallel to Time, some are Parallel to their mirrors, some may intersect with other worlds.

(That theory should be up soon btw) I understand how you have extrapolated that theory from the data we've been given. But as to what we know of Perpendicular Worlds, factually, is very little.

Tamyrlin
08-26-2011, 03:37 PM
Okay. But the weave itself could have been constructed to serve a certain purpose, giving the Void properties it would not normally have.

For instance, a limit on creating things from the mind, or perhaps the actual ability to create from the mind itself?

Edited to add:
And air. Musn't forget air.

That's a good point...unless the Void itself has such built in properties...but I'm more willing to err towards your explanation that the Weave is creating the conditions, such as those that in my opinion were used to create the Ways within the Void.

Crispin's Crispian
08-26-2011, 03:48 PM
Living things are likely more complex (and so more difficult to imagine) than a simple brick platform. It may be that the weave is specifically designed to open a gateway into a space with a sort of willpower threshold and a complexity limit.

That would explain why Skimming platforms can only be so big. I liken it to creating a diving bubble for deep-sea diving. You open a portal out to the Void but there has to be some sort of Pattern-bubble along with it. If there weren't, you'd die, plus there'd be one hell of a vacuum.

The Unreasoner
08-26-2011, 04:14 PM
what we know of Perpendicular Worlds, factually, is very little.

Then I suppose my theory is appropriately short. You can take your time posting it, or not post it at all. I've tweaked the other two of the originals to near-unrecognizable levels.

confused at birth
08-26-2011, 05:05 PM
so i made one thread nuts and this one was made.

and now ive made this one sane how does that work

Tamyrlin
08-26-2011, 05:09 PM
Then I suppose my theory is appropriately short. You can take your time posting it, or not post it at all. I've tweaked the other two of the originals to near-unrecognizable levels.

And then I can reject the earlier ones. No reason to post stuff that you've since tweaked significantly. Let me know.

The Unreasoner
08-26-2011, 05:54 PM
Well I didn't submit them at all yet. The only one submitted is the Perpendicular Worlds one, on which my position is unchanged. Or rather, the only thing that changed is the weight I give it.

FelixPax
08-27-2011, 07:59 AM
none of this has told me where the link from skimming to dreaming is? i cant think of how that came about


Dreaming (Imagination, Thought) is the common bond between all the Worlds. Skimming is a way to find the crossroads of all the Worlds. To Skim, requires Dreaming.


One can move by Skimming from World to World to World.

Whereas, one cannot move from World to World to World by a Traveling gateway created by the saidar, saidin. (By World, I specifically mean a foreign World, an outside World. Not say moving from Earth's World of Flesh to Earth's World of Dream, as that's within a given space. Traveling just won't get operate from Earth to say the Ogier's home World. Whereas one could Skim to the Ogier home World.)

Even when Rand al'Thor used a Portal Stone three times to move, he had to hold an image in his thoughts. That's an aspect of Dreaming.


If one does not Dream or think, one cannot create a Skimming platform.


If one can Dream and think, one can move in any direction of Space, Time. One can literally alter reality, and the rules of a World.

The Dark One is trying to do this very thing, to the 'Mirror World of Flesh' found on Earth, now.


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Once irony of Wheel of Time, is the author Robert Jordan has reversed the meanings of the words Flesh and Dream. Hopper has said as much to Perrin, as has Madoc Comadrin in 'Fog and Steel':

The sweetness of victory and the bitterness of defeat are alike a knife of dreams.


Everything that's occurred in the Wheel of Time, in essence can be considered a nightmare. A nightmare, which everyone can wake-up and vaguely remember. To awake in a new Age.

FelixPax
08-27-2011, 08:48 AM
Is the Void. It is outside the Pattern.

An individual's Void, is within a given World.


Example, Rand's Void is found in the Mirror World called Earth. Rand's Void is not found in the Parallel World of the Aelfinn or Eelfinn. Nor is Rand's Void found presently in a Mirror World called 'In the Mirrors of Darkness' (See 'The Great Hunt, Chapter 16)


Your second sentence's claims, I'm highly skeptical of: "It is outside the Pattern."


Triad of Constants: Dark One + Creator + Dreams Worlds/Third Constant.


Strong Dreamer's can create new Worlds by thought alone. That's not done outside the Pattern, but from within the Pattern itself. The Pattern is part of the Third Constant. The Pattern is part of every Parallel World, every Mirror World.

FelixPax
08-27-2011, 09:01 AM
I still think perpendicular worlds don't exist. All worlds are Parallel to Time, some are Parallel to their mirrors, some may intersect with other worlds.

Perpendicular Worlds do exist.


If a Strong Dreamer or more, imagines a reset point, of a given World, that World will have an alternative set of outcomes produced.

Readers have already seen aspects of Perpendicular Worlds in action:

The Great Hunt, Chapter 37 "What Might Be" -- Rand al'Thor point of view.



Selene/Mierin also described this possibility to Loial, using different words a few chapters earlier:

“She is a fascinating woman, isn’t she? Some of the Elders don’t know as much as she does about history—especially the Age of Legends—and about—oh, yes. She says you were right about the Ways, Rand. The Aes Sedai, some of them, studied worlds like this, and that study was the basis of how they grew the Ways. She says there are worlds where it is time rather than distance that changes. Spend a day in one of those, and you might come back to find a year has passed in the real world, or twenty. Or it could be the other way round. Those worlds—this one, all the others—are reflections of the real world, she says. This one seems pale to us because it is a weak reflection, a world that had little chance of ever being. Others are almost as likely as ours. Those are as solid as our world, and have people. The same people, she says, Rand. Imagine it! You could go to one of them and meet yourself. The Pattern has infinite variation, she says, and every variation that can be, will be.”


The Great Hunt, Chapter 16 "In the Mirrors of Darkness" -- Rand al'Thor point of view, with Loial speaking and Hurin listening

The Unreasoner
08-27-2011, 03:46 PM
Perpendicular Worlds do exist.

Q: Balefire is one of the most confusing things in the book, for me. I find the fine aspects of it, the whole threading together of the things that work in it... Could you be a little more elaborate on that?
RJ: All right. The cosmography we're looking at here, is not the cosmography of here and now. The Wheel of Time is in its way a spinning wheel. The fabric of reality is woven by the threads. Those threads are the lines that are formed by people passing through time. Each person has a thread. The thread has its sole dimension in time, its life is in time. Those are the threads that are used to weave the fabric of reality. When balefire strikes a person, a thread here, it doesn't simply stop the thread there. The thread burns backwards a little bit, like you just took a thread and put a match to it and it burns up a little bit before it goes out. It depends on how hot the flame is how far it's going to burn back and what the material is opposed to. It burns up a little bit, it doesn't just catch fire on the end and go out. So that person that was hit here is burned out of the pattern back to here. What that person did between here and here was no longer done. Other people remember seeing it. They may remember the supposed effects of it but what that person did wasn't done. It didn't happen, it's not real. Now that's a little bit of a shiver on the fabric of reality as it is. The reason that there was an unofficial agreement in the War of the Shadow to not use balefire any more, to stop using it, was simply that several cities were destroyed in that way. Hundreds of thousands of threads were burnt out from the pattern in one go and the fabric of reality began to unravel. And even the guys going for the Dark One knew that there's not a whole lot of point to winning if winning means there's nothing there to rule, nothing there to win. If you burnt out the stakes, forget it. Have I made it a little clearer I hope?
Sole dimension in Time? Definitely Parallel to time...

Explain away...

FelixPax
08-27-2011, 07:47 PM
Sole dimension in Time? Definitely Parallel to time...

Explain away...

That Robert Jordan quotation is not explaining anything outside of one particular Mirror World called Earth.


The thread has its sole dimension in time, its life is in time. Those are the threads that are used to weave the fabric of reality.


If say a group of Dreamers went to a vacuole, they could re-create every single thread they desired to. This group of Dreamers can set Time to Begin, whenever they desired to.

Let say Nynaeve, Lan, Luca, Moghedien decided to Dream of Time Beginning four years before TEOTW book... with the Dark One sealed away totally... the Fabric of Reality would be completely different. New decisions, different decisions would be made by individuals. New leaders, new societies could be created by the Dreamers. Land could be cleansed. The collective nightmare experienced from TEOTW to ToM Book, would be at most a vague echo of memory.


'Worlds that Might Be' are Perpendicular.
Perpendicular because different decisions have been made.

Sei'taer
08-27-2011, 10:48 PM
I know I'm going to regret this.

Where do Ogier come from? Is it a dream world, a parallel world, a perpendicular world or another planet? If they leave before the last battle (which I don't think they will) is their reality burned out? Can Ogier be dreamers and remake their own place in the world? Do they even have threads in the weave because of their not being from this particular place and just kind of happened onto it? Loial obviously doesn't understand parallel worlds because he knows nothing about it until Lanfear explains it. I'm just wondering how the Ogier fit into this?

Terez
08-27-2011, 11:04 PM
I know I'm going to regret this.

Where do Ogier come from? Is it a dream world, a parallel world, a perpendicular world or another planet?
Parallel world.

If they leave before the last battle (which I don't think they will) is their reality burned out?
Most of us believe that the stedding will disappear when they leave (or the physical properties of the stedding anyway).

Loial obviously doesn't understand parallel worlds because he knows nothing about it until Lanfear explains it.
Those were Mirror Worlds. Different thing.

Sei'taer
08-27-2011, 11:50 PM
Parallel world.


Most of us believe that the stedding will disappear when they leave (or the physical properties of the stedding anyway).


Those were Mirror Worlds. Different thing.

If they're in Randland, wouldn't that be a perpendicular world?

I think the steddings will leave too, I think it's a matter of when they will leave more than if.

There's no way in hell I can make heads or tails of Felixs posts because they go in so many directions at once and make my head hurt with all the weird editing so I'm just trying to get some sort of idea what he's saying and why he's going there. I think maybe it's better to quit while I can.

GonzoTheGreat
08-28-2011, 04:26 AM
If one does not Dream or think, one cannot create a Skimming platform.Which, it would seem, is yet another weak point in your "Myrddraal Skim" theory:
"I serve," she said quickly. "I have served the Lord of the Twilight long. Long did I lie imprisoned for my service, in an endless, dreamless sleep. Only Gray Men and Myrddraal are denied dreams. Even Trollocs can dream. Dreams were always mine, to use and walk. Now I am free again, and I will use what is mine."

FelixPax
08-28-2011, 05:46 AM
I know I'm going to regret this.

Where do Ogier come from? Is it a dream world, a parallel world, a perpendicular world or another planet?

A Parallel World.

Can Ogier be dreamers and remake their own place in the world?

Yes, Ogier do Dream. (See 'The Dragon Reborn' book, Chapter 1 "Waiting" -- Loial's comments to Moiraine, Min, Perrin, Uno)

However, Ogier's cannot be linked to Wolves, in the sense of Wolf Dreamers. Two separate species, according to Robert Jordan in a blog posting at Dragonmount years ago.



Loial obviously doesn't understand parallel worlds because he knows nothing about it until Lanfear explains it. I'm just wondering how the Ogier fit into this?

It's been suggested by clues in the series, that Parallel Worlds are Worlds in which, Dream and Flesh are united in one space or area. In other words, a separate TAR did not exist in the Ogier's original Parallel World.



If they're in Randland, wouldn't that be a perpendicular world?

No.

A Perpendicular World, is one which different decisions have been made. I guess one could call it a 'fork in the road' type moment, which have lasting effects.


Both Mirror World's and Parallel World's each have 'fork in the road' type moments, which Robert Jordan has decided to call 'Perpendicular Worlds'.

When Rand, Verin, Loial, Mat Cauthon, Perrin, Uno, Ragan, Hurin and the Shienarians soldiers each saw hundreds to thousands of life possibilities unfold before their eyes... each was a true possibility. Each different choice, and reality led to a perpendicular outcome.


In Rand's point of view readers see how Rand's life could have unfolded:


“ . . . is wrong!” Verin screamed.

The Power was everything.

Flicker. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker. Flicker.

He was a soldier. He was a shepherd. He was a beggar, and a king. He was farmer, gleeman, sailor, carpenter. He was born, lived, and died an Aiel. He died mad, he died rotting, he died of sickness, accident, age. He was executed, and multitudes cheered his death. He proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn and flung his banner across the sky; he ran from the Power and hid; he lived and died never knowing. He held off the madness and the sickness for years; he succumbed between two winters. Sometimes Moiraine came and took him away from the Two Rivers, alone or with those of his friends who had survived Winternight; sometimes she did not. Sometimes other Aes Sedai came for him. Sometimes the Red Ajah. Egwene married him; Egwene, stern-faced in the stole of the Amyrlin Seat, led the Aes Sedai who gentled him; Egwene, with tears in her eyes, plunged a dagger into his heart, and he thanked her as he died. He loved other women, married other women. Elayne, and Min, and a fair-haired farmer’s daughter met on the road to Caemlyn, and women he had never seen before he lived those lives. A hundred lives. More. So many he could not count them. And at the end of every life, as he lay dying, as he drew his final breath, a voice whispered in his ear, I have won again, Lews Therin.

Flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker flicker.

The void vanished, contact with saidin fled, and Rand fell with a thud that would have knocked the breath out of him if he had not already been half numb. He felt rough stone under his cheek, and his hands. It was cold.

He was aware of Verin, struggling from her back to hands and knees. He heard someone vomit roughly, and raised his head. Uno was kneeling on the ground, scrubbing the back of his hand across his mouth. Everyone was down, and the horses stood stiff-legged and quivering, eyes wild and rolling. Ingtar had his sword out, gripping the hilt so hard the blade shook, staring at nothing. Loial sat sprawled, wide-eyed and stunned. Mat was huddled in a ball with his arms wrapped around his head, and Perrin had his fingers dug into his face as if he wanted to rip away whatever he had seen, or perhaps rip out the eyes that had seen it. None of the soldiers were any better. Masema wept openly, tears streaming down his face, and Hurin was looking around as if for a place to run.

“What . . . ?” Rand stopped to swallow. He was lying on rough, weathered stone half buried in the dirt. “What happened?”

“A surge of the One Power.” The Aes Sedai tottered to her feet and pulled her cloak tight with a shiver. “It was as if we were being forced . . . pushed . . . It seemed to come out of nowhere. You must learn to control it. You must! That much of the Power could burn you to a cinder.”

“Verin, I . . . I lived . . . I was . . . ” He realized the stone under him was rounded. The Portal Stone. Hastily, shakily, he pushed himself to his feet. “Verin, I lived and died, I don’t know how many times. Every time it was different, but it was me. It was me.”

“The Lines that join the Worlds That Might Be, laid by those who knew the Numbers of Chaos.” Verin shuddered; she seemed to be talking to herself. “I’ve never heard it, but there is no reason we would not be born in those worlds, yet the lives we lived would be different lives. Of course. Different lives for the different ways things might have happened.”

“Is that what happened? I . . . we . . . saw how our lives could have been?” I have won again, Lews Therin. No! I am Rand al’Thor!

Verin gave herself a shake and looked at him. “Does it surprise you that your life might go differently if you made different choices, or different things happened to you? Though I never thought I—Well. The important thing is, we are here. Though not as we hoped.”



The Great Hunt, Chapter 37 "What Might Be" -- Rand al'Thor point of view

Note: This above scene of text is PACKED with details!! It's an extremely important chapter scene, yet it is filled with distractors.


Basically each World, and each being in a Mirror World has an untold number of choices and outcomes. These untold number of choices and outcomes, are perpendicular to a given World (Mirror or Parallel).

For example, Nynaeve al'Meara chooses to live in a Perpendicular World (of Earth), where the Dark One is sealed away, and a happy beginning exists. Instead of choosing to live in a Perpendicular World (of Earth) where the Dark One wins. Same Mirror World, same people, totally different outcomes and reality.



There's no way in hell I can make heads or tails of Felixs posts because they go in so many directions at once and make my head hurt with all the weird editing so I'm just trying to get some sort of idea what he's saying and why he's going there. I think maybe it's better to quit while I can.

What are you finding confusing?


Which, it would seem, is yet another weak point in your "Myrddraal Skim" theory:

Yes, perhaps the Dark One has an alternative mechanism of transportation, as I mentioned in another thread posting recently?

Myrddraal Skimming is more a working hypothesis, than a full blow Theory. To become a Theory, in my view, it needs more evidence, more proof.

In Randland on Earth, a character can Skim regardless of lighting concerns, yet Myrddraal require a Shadow to move. Perhaps this limitation is a clue to a separate mechanism for long-distance movement to different Worlds.



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The Dark One's Constant is Dreamless, according to multiple Chosen's comments.

Yet Shaidar Haran sure seems to be the avatar of the Dark One. Quite fitting considering both the Dark One and Myrddraal lack dreams.

Sei'taer
08-28-2011, 09:12 AM
So you can make a coherent and reasonable post! I'm proud of you Felix. That was fantastic and actually quite nice to read.

Lupusdeusest
08-29-2011, 12:30 AM
I like his formatting. It warns me to think in a Felix way when I read that post!
I remember one Felix post a month or so back that was not formatted in the same manner and seeing his username there threw me completely.

phil01
08-29-2011, 07:15 AM
The whole idea of parallel/perpinduclar worlds grates me as it takes the responsibility of making a decision away.

If for every major decision that is made a new world starts where the opposite decision is made then this whole story is a waste of time. If the dark one wins because Rand made a bad decision in this world then the dark one will lose in one of the other worlds where Rand made the other decision. So it doesn't matter what decision Rand makes as on one world it will be fine and on another it will de a disaster. He lives in both worlds and it can't be the same result in both worlds. One will work out good one bad.

Zombie Sammael
08-29-2011, 07:29 AM
The whole idea of parallel/perpinduclar worlds grates me as it takes the responsibility of making a decision away.

If for every major decision that is made a new world starts where the opposite decision is made then this whole story is a waste of time. If the dark one wins because Rand made a bad decision in this world then the dark one will lose in one of the other worlds where Rand made the other decision. So it doesn't matter what decision Rand makes as on one world it will be fine and on another it will de a disaster. He lives in both worlds and it can't be the same result in both worlds. One will work out good one bad.

I think that's why they are mirror worlds rather than true "parallel universes" in the classical sense. I've often thought of them as the reflections in two mirrors placed either side of the "true" reality; the reflections get more distorted the further away they go from the centre, but all are merely reflections of the real world. It is the Dark One's defeat or victory in that centre reality which matters; he has no reflection in the others (because reflections are made of light, and he is pure darkness which cannot be reflected), and thus no matter what the forces which serve light or dark do in those worlds, his freedom can never come in them.

The Unreasoner
08-29-2011, 07:50 AM
I would be careful how far you take that, Zombie.

And people may have (relatively) free will in the true world, while the mirrors are just automatons, and act in a deterministic sense with respect to their respective world.

Zombie Sammael
08-29-2011, 08:05 AM
I would be careful how far you take that, Zombie.

And people may have (relatively) free will in the true world, while the mirrors are just automatons, and act in a deterministic sense with respect to their respective world.

I'm never careful.:p What do you mean? It seems like a good analogy.

The Unreasoner
08-29-2011, 08:11 AM
The Dark One has no 'reflection' in the true world either. Only his agents do. It may be the case that he cannot become completely free in a mirror, or it may be the case that he just hasn't yet. Or maybe he's gobbling up failing mirrors as fast as new ones are created.

Zombie Sammael
08-29-2011, 08:22 AM
The Dark One has no 'reflection' in the true world either. Only his agents do. It may be the case that he cannot become completely free in a mirror, or it may be the case that he just hasn't yet. Or maybe he's gobbling up failing mirrors as fast as new ones are created.

I would suggest that, while it might be possible to visit Shayol Ghul in a mirror, the bore in a mirror is merely a reflection of the bore in the true world, and thus communication with the DO is not possible. You cannot reflect darkness.

The Unreasoner
08-29-2011, 08:48 AM
A thought potentially supported with the following:
Behind her, a voice rasped like rock being ground to dust. “The Great Lord thought you might not take their word, Graendal. The time when you could go your own way has passed.” A ball of . . . something . . . appeared in the air, a dead black globe, but a silver light filled the room. The mirrors did not shine; they seemed to dull in that light. The birds went still, silent; somehow, Graendal knew they had frozen in terror.

Tamyrlin
08-29-2011, 09:34 AM
So you can make a coherent and reasonable post! I'm proud of you Felix. That was fantastic and actually quite nice to read.

Felix speaks of Perpendicular Worlds without stating that everything he just wrote about them would be his theory on Perpendicular Worlds based on little to no actual data about Perpendicular Worlds.

It's been suggested by clues in the series, that Parallel Worlds are Worlds in which, Dream and Flesh are united in one space or area. In other words, a separate TAR did not exist in the Ogier's original Parallel World.

And Felix is wrong about this, making a theory by ignoring some facts. Parallel Worlds are real worlds and are connected by TAR.

The Unreasoner
08-29-2011, 09:46 AM
What a fun thread.

A certain Mirror Thread just got a little crazier.



I must have missed the bulk of the Skimming stuff. But, with the prefix "Felix", I suppose this thread is named appropriately

confused at birth
08-29-2011, 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by Sei'taer
So you can make a coherent and reasonable post! I'm proud of you Felix. That was fantastic and actually quite nice to read.

Felix speaks of Perpendicular Worlds without stating that everything he just wrote about them would be his theory on Perpendicular Worlds based on little to no actual data about Perpendicular Worlds.


dude Sei'taer said coherent not correct:D

Crispin's Crispian
08-29-2011, 02:39 PM
I think that's why they are mirror worlds rather than true "parallel universes" in the classical sense. I've often thought of them as the reflections in two mirrors placed either side of the "true" reality; the reflections get more distorted the further away they go from the centre, but all are merely reflections of the real world. It is the Dark One's defeat or victory in that centre reality which matters; he has no reflection in the others (because reflections are made of light, and he is pure darkness which cannot be reflected), and thus no matter what the forces which serve light or dark do in those worlds, his freedom can never come in them.

A thought potentially supported with the following:
This is good stuff. I have never even considered the idea that the DO cannot exist in mirror worlds because he is darkness. I mean, it's obviously metaphor, but then it might be a blending of metaphor and reality.

I'm glad Felix posted the Portal Stone scene with Rand and Verin, as I think that speaks volumes about the nature of the Pattern and "perpendicular"* worlds. Rather than every Mirror World world being just as real or valid as our own, it's stated at least once or twice that many are not. See my Chronicle (http://theoryland.com/chronicles.php?user=sdog&page=b)from so long ago.

Rand lived out a bunch of lives that were not the life he was Patterned to live. The Wheel is weaving the Pattern in such a way to be self-sustaining, while trying to account for limited free will. In order to sustain itself, the Wheel needs Rand to follow a specific path. That path is encoded in prophecy and can be viewed cryptically by Dreamers and by Min. But it hasn't happened yet, and there is just enough free will that Rand could have taken a different path.

But it is extremely unlikely, because the Pattern is setting everything up so he does what he is supposed to do.

As far as Dreamers being able to create their own reality, I don't think it's quite that easy. We know that Dreamers can alter Tel'aran'rhiod, and very strong ones can probably create "worlds" there. But even the strongest can't maintain that world when they are not Dreaming or in the Flesh, nor could they if a stronger Dreamer decided to change it.

Moreover, we have absolutely no evidence that Mirror or Parallel Worlds can be created in or via Tel'aran'rhiod.

I do like the idea of RJ reversing the Flesh vs. Dream imagery though. The Aiel are expecting wake up when they die. ;)



*Just a side note--two worlds can be perpendicular to one another, yet parallel to time. Think of drawing an "x" on a table. The lines are perpendicular to one another, but the plane on which they were drawn in parallel to the table.

GonzoTheGreat
08-29-2011, 03:03 PM
*Just a side note--two worlds can be perpendicular to one another, yet parallel to time. Think of drawing an "x" on a table. The lines are perpendicular to one another, but the plane on which they were drawn in parallel to the table.Side note to the side note: they are both perpendicular to time too. That's why time is called an extra dimension. :D

confused at birth
08-29-2011, 03:10 PM
Hi everyone.

The Unreasoner
08-29-2011, 03:57 PM
This is good stuff. I have never even considered the idea that the DO cannot exist in mirror worlds because he is darkness. I mean, it's obviously metaphor, but then it might be a blending of metaphor and reality.
It might. But although I like Zombie (and threw him what I thought would be a useful quote), if he's right on this I need to seriously retool some of my positions.
I'm glad Felix posted the Portal Stone scene with Rand and Verin, as I think that speaks volumes about the nature of the Pattern and "perpendicular"* worlds. Rather than every Mirror World world being just as real or valid as our own, it's stated at least once or twice that many are not. See my Chronicle (http://theoryland.com/chronicles.php?user=sdog&page=b)from so long ago.

Rand lived out a bunch of lives that were not the life he was Patterned to live. The Wheel is weaving the Pattern in such a way to be self-sustaining, while trying to account for limited free will. In order to sustain itself, the Wheel needs Rand to follow a specific path. That path is encoded in prophecy and can be viewed cryptically by Dreamers and by Min. But it hasn't happened yet, and there is just enough free will that Rand could have taken a different path.
I think in the Worlds thread awhile back, an idea was bounced around that these specific lives seen en route to Toman Head were not exactly 'true'. Or perhaps lacking in substance. IIRC, the idea came about because Rand 'lost' in all of them, and it was also concerned with the sustainability/durability of the doubles. I think the spectrum went from "specific virtual reality engineered (in some fashion) by Ishamael" to "a root-level function of the supercomputing Wheel simulating countless scenarios in an effort to determine what set of Talents and Turning points optimizes success at Tarmon Gaidon" to the interpretation you provided.
I like all three, and I especially like your emphasis on at least a modicum of free will. Of course, how you see Verin's statement that free in one=free in all, and whether you accept Zombie's belief that the DO is unreflected are two points to consider.
But it is extremely unlikely, because the Pattern is setting everything up so he does what he is supposed to do.
I don't know how restrictive the Wheel would be. It could be that the Mirror Worlds exist to provide a data source to optimize conditions, and of their own accord. And if the Pattern was completely deterministic, why allow the Bore in the first place?
*Just a side note--two worlds can be perpendicular to one another, yet parallel to time. Think of drawing an "x" on a table. The lines are perpendicular to one another, but the plane on which they were drawn in parallel to the table.
Theorykiller. (actually I pointed out that very point in my theory, all's good ;))

Crispin's Crispian
08-29-2011, 05:02 PM
I think in the Worlds thread awhile back, an idea was bounced around that these specific lives seen en route to Toman Head were not exactly 'true'. Or perhaps lacking in substance. IIRC, the idea came about because Rand 'lost' in all of them...
I don't think they were true, or even real, per se. If they were real, it would have taken a lot longer than four months for him to have lived out thousands of lives. Of course, in some worlds time moves a lot faster, I guess. But in some, it's slower, so on average you'd think it would even out. I speculate that rather than transport himself et al. to various Mirror Worlds, Rand actually activated some kind of "What If" modeling function of the Stones that used the Mirror World projections to show them what might have happened.

I like all three, and I especially like your emphasis on at least a modicum of free will. Of course, how you see Verin's statement that free in one=free in all, and whether you accept Zombie's belief that the DO is unreflected are two points to consider.
I am still not sure about the DO shadow/light thing. To me, the simplest answer is that there is only one real world, and only one Dark One. The Mirror Worlds are just reflections. As to why the Dark One isn't free in some crazy Mirror World reflection where Ishamael marries Rand on Sunday, I'm not sure. It probably has to do with the idea that the conditions have to be perfect for his freedom, and that can only happen one way. So far no decisions have been made that would cause that as an unintended consequence.

Or Verin is just wrong. ~shrug~

And if the Pattern was completely deterministic, why allow the Bore in the first place?Oh, it's not completely deterministic. I think Rand's meditation on Dragonmount is the strongest evidence for this. That was one of the major turning points in the whole series. If he's allowed his darker elements to win out, he would have broken the world.

"ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL."

Whether that was the Creator or the Dark One speaking doesn't matter in this context.

The Unreasoner
08-29-2011, 05:27 PM
I meant deterministic in the mathematical sense. Any state can be used to calculate all future ones. Completely predictable.

And while it seems reasonable that the DO's paradoxical nature does not preclude a completely deterministic Pattern (as the DO is beyond the Pattern and unknowable within it), my desire for (some) free will does (lousy argument, I know)

phil01
08-29-2011, 07:43 PM
I like your idea about the mirror worlds but how do you determine what remains the true world and what becomes the mirror world. Up to the point the decision is made everything is the same and then suddenly there is two worlds which one is now the mirror world and which one is the true world. How does the pattern determine it? If I was the pattern i would choose the world that the right decision was made and therefore Rand can never lose because there will always be a world where he made the right decisions.

The Unreasoner
08-30-2011, 01:42 PM
Oh, it's not completely deterministic.

I somehow completely missed the "not" on the first read through, sorry about that.

Crispin's Crispian
08-30-2011, 02:22 PM
I like your idea about the mirror worlds but how do you determine what remains the true world and what becomes the mirror world. Up to the point the decision is made everything is the same and then suddenly there is two worlds which one is now the mirror world and which one is the true world. How does the pattern determine it? If I was the pattern i would choose the world that the right decision was made and therefore Rand can never lose because there will always be a world where he made the right decisions.

It doesn't get to choose. There is only one actual decision, right or wrong (usually right). The Pattern doesn't get to decide which Mirror World is the best one.

Zombie Sammael
08-30-2011, 03:10 PM
It doesn't get to choose. There is only one actual decision, right or wrong (usually right). The Pattern doesn't get to decide which Mirror World is the best one.

This. The mirror worlds are just reflections - though apparently the Pattern can weave in and out of them, so to describe them as just reflections is an analogy that breaks down eventually. Also, bear in mind that the Wheel and the Pattern do have something approaching a rudimentary intelligence; I think RJ once described the Wheel as the most intelligent super-computer in the universe, so it's capable of making decisions based on tiny fluctuations in chaos theory in order to generate the proper outcome. This also doesn't mean that the Dark One might not be as intelligent and capable of playing the system against itself.

FelixPax
08-31-2011, 04:30 AM
And Felix is wrong about this, making a theory by ignoring some facts. Parallel Worlds are real worlds and are connected by TAR.

I see someone is not grasping basic facts, who then makes false generalizations on an incomplete understanding. I have ignored nothing.


Your complaint is noted.


What is the 'World of Dreams' like?


An Onion, an Eggshell, an Apple.


What do these all have in common?

Seals. Walls. Layers.

Dreams within Dreams within Dreams...

Ignorance too.

Yes, even immortal souls have knowledge and understanding limitations, where All Time exist. Be it, Hopper, Birgitte, L.T.T., Eelfinn, Aelfinn, Dark One and so on.




Each Dream can have it's own rules or properties of Time, Space, Outcome. When one enters another's Dream, one loses absolute control. Be it, an individual's personal dream (Egwene in Gawyn's) or rules of a broadly created realm (Mirror, Parallel). All facts.

phil01
08-31-2011, 06:03 AM
It doesn't get to choose. There is only one actual decision, right or wrong (usually right). The Pattern doesn't get to decide which Mirror World is the best one.

this is in reply to above (sorry don't do this often so don't know how to quote or anything). My understanding of this whole concept is the world is chugging along and it comes to a big decision. A decision is made but there is a mirror world that appears where the opposite decision was made. Everything that happened before that decision is exactly the same so which decision is now the true world and which is the mirror world. Surely the new mirror world is essentially created at that point it hasn't co-existed the whole time waiting for this one decision where it would be different. To me it is like a branch that forks in the middle and one goes one way and the other goes the other way. So if they both stem from the same place and essentially go in different directions at that point which world is the mirror and which is the true world.

sorry if i started rambling it's been a long day.

As a side note if you balefire someone back before they made a decision that created a mirror world does that mean a whole lot of mirror worlds would suddenly cease to exist because the decision they made that created the mirror world was essentially never made. Man thats getting complex.

Zombie Sammael
08-31-2011, 06:33 AM
It doesn't get to choose. There is only one actual decision, right or wrong (usually right). The Pattern doesn't get to decide which Mirror World is the best one.

this is in reply to above (sorry don't do this often so don't know how to quote or anything). My understanding of this whole concept is the world is chugging along and it comes to a big decision. A decision is made but there is a mirror world that appears where the opposite decision was made. Everything that happened before that decision is exactly the same so which decision is now the true world and which is the mirror world. Surely the new mirror world is essentially created at that point it hasn't co-existed the whole time waiting for this one decision where it would be different. To me it is like a branch that forks in the middle and one goes one way and the other goes the other way. So if they both stem from the same place and essentially go in different directions at that point which world is the mirror and which is the true world.

sorry if i started rambling it's been a long day.

As a side note if you balefire someone back before they made a decision that created a mirror world does that mean a whole lot of mirror worlds would suddenly cease to exist because the decision they made that created the mirror world was essentially never made. Man thats getting complex.

No. It's not like a traditional parallel universe with the diverging pathways. It's clear that only a certain number of mirror worlds are capable of existing. The one Rand, Hurin, Loial and Lanfear visited was clearly nearer to the edge of possibility, so it's pretty clear that eventually such massive divergences would take place in the mirror that the world would cease to exist.

Also, if there were limitless mirror worlds, a la traditional parallel universes, how would Portal Stones work? You can use the symbols to travel between stones or between worlds, but if the symbols represent mirror worlds there can only be a set number of symbols, and thus a set number of worlds. There's no evidence that the number of symbols or the symbols themselves change and grow, and no reason to think - especially given Rand's experience with the Cairhien stone - that there are more worlds than are accessible via Portal Stone.

As for Balefire, the mirror world would continue to reflect what it reflected before. Obviously the "two mirrors reflect a chair, and the chair is the real world" analogy breaks down at some point, but it's reasonable to think that the reflections can in some way move about and become more or less possible, as we saw with Rand's trip to the world of Grolm.

phil01
08-31-2011, 07:34 AM
the question still remains when are the mirror worlds created. are you saying at the dawn of time that a certain amount of mirror worlds were created and were predestined to change at certain points?

As for the portal stones they may have just not made roads (for lack of a better word) to all of the mirror worlds. This does not prove that there are only a certain amount of mirror worlds.

It is also possible that they are only created when certain important decisions are made hence not an unlimitless number however you would then have the problem of what is construed as an important decision.

And with the balefire how can a mirror world reflect something that was technically not there to be reflected.

Zombie Sammael
08-31-2011, 07:45 AM
the question still remains when are the mirror worlds created. are you saying at the dawn of time that a certain amount of mirror worlds were created and were predestined to change at certain points?

As for the portal stones they may have just not made roads (for lack of a better word) to all of the mirror worlds. This does not prove that there are only a certain amount of mirror worlds.

It is also possible that they are only created when certain important decisions are made hence not an unlimitless number however you would then have the problem of what is construed as an important decision.

And with the balefire how can a mirror world reflect something that was technically not there to be reflected.

If there are only "roads" to a certain number of mirror worlds, why were Rand and co able to experience such a large number of different mirror lives? It's implied they experienced every possible permutation, which implies there are in fact only a certain limited number of permutations. If the mirrors are only created when a decision is made then that implies the creation of a Portal Stone is impossible. Logically, there has to be a limited number of mirror worlds.

As for Balefire, if the real world is the light bouncing off the chair between the two mirrors, it takes a certain amount of time for that light to reach a mirror world - in the analogy, an infinitesmally short amount of time, but there's no reason to think that it need actually be that quick in a real Mirror World. As such it would take a certain amount of time for the change - the removal of a bit of the chair - to be reflected in all of the reflections, one by one. This might be one reason why balefire is so dangerous; aside from just potentially causing the actual pattern to unravel, it also mucks up the Wheel's decision making mechanism, which is to glance at the mirrors and see how a certain decision would go.

Sei'taer
08-31-2011, 08:43 AM
I see someone is not grasping basic facts, who then makes false generalizations on an incomplete understanding. I have ignored nothing.


Your complaint is noted.


What is the 'World of Dreams' like?


An Onion, an Eggshell, an Apple.


What do these all have in common?

Seals. Walls. Layers.

Dreams within Dreams within Dreams...

Ignorance too.

Yes, even immortal souls have knowledge and understanding limitations, where All Time exist. Be it, Hopper, Birgitte, L.T.T., Eelfinn, Aelfinn, Dark One and so on.




Each Dream can have it's own rules or properties of Time, Space, Outcome. When one enters another's Dream, one loses absolute control. Be it, an individual's personal dream (Egwene in Gawyn's) or rules of a broadly created realm (Mirror, Parallel). All facts.

So who made the mirror worlds? Some random person and the portal stones are dream ter'angreal helping you to enter their dream?

confused at birth
08-31-2011, 10:03 AM
As for Balefire, if the real world is the light bouncing off the chair between the two mirrors, it takes a certain amount of time for that light to reach a mirror world - in the analogy, an infinitesmally short amount of time, but there's no reason to think that it need actually be that quick in a real Mirror World. As such it would take a certain amount of time for the change - the removal of a bit of the chair - to be reflected in all of the reflections, one by one. This might be one reason why balefire is so dangerous; aside from just potentially causing the actual pattern to unravel, it also mucks up the Wheel's decision making mechanism, which is to glance at the mirrors and see how a certain decision would go.


why would it have to affect them at all? decisions could still be made but now it could compare to worlds where nearly the same actions happened but someone lived because balefire brought them back and in the other they died.

FelixPax
09-01-2011, 01:14 PM
Advanced notice, perhaps the best way to think of this long posting is as a FAQ or Q&A discussion.

It wanders across the topics, themes from fact to hypotheses to theories to unknowns to outside influences upon Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time series.

Some theories, I haven't seen discussed previously either: Nine Rods of Dominion, Two Ravens, the King & Easing a Badger for example. Nor have I seen many HCFF's try their hand at WoT based anagrams strangely enough. Remember Robert Jordan is a Poet.


Skimming and the World of Dreams is a focus. Just not the only focus.


Yes, the below text jumps around... it's a rough draft... if I was unclear, anything seemed confusing, please point it out. I'll try my best to illuminate upon the topic at hand.



It doesn't get to choose. There is only one actual decision, right or wrong (usually right). The Pattern doesn't get to decide which Mirror World is the best one.

You've touched on one very important topic indirectly in your comments. Why is this particular Mirror World called Earth, of the larger World of Dreams important? Additionally, who's Dream created this particular Pattern?


My gut feeling to the first question, is the Star's have fled one realm of the World of Dreams to this Mirror World. There's a good reason why the Skimming Skyline is pitch black (Egwene pov, Rand pov, and Lan's seen it twice at least). Light has died or fled to another part of the worlds of dreams: Mirror Worlds, Perpendicular Worlds et al. Recall the Ogier fled from a Parallel World to a Mirror World too. Why did the Ogier need to switch to a new World within the World of Dreams?


An answer to the second question, is hinted additionally in Nyn-a-eve's own name! :D
(That is if names are a type of destiny in WoT?)

Nynaeve = Now a beginning... The Eye of a Charmingly Rich World... Now a beautiful creation...



Nyn can mean:

In Hindi: (1) Eye; (2)Rich; (3)Charming, Beautiful to Look At

In Greek: (1) Now

Middle English, from Old English nū; akin to Old High German nū now, Latin nunc, Greek nyn

Source: www.m-w.com (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/now)

In biblical terms & definitions, the word Nyn has a manifold set of meanings as is shown in Geoffrey W. Bromiley's 'The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (http://books.google.com/books?id=Zkla5Gl_66oC&pg=PA554&lpg=PA554&dq=nyn+meaning&source=bl&ots=o24lNR-dz0&sig=wWrON-UzbTp3OXmcvFqWqYcU2n0&hl=en&ei=MkhfTv69AZLKiALw9dmiDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBzge#v=onepage&q=nyn%20meaning&f=false)'. Excellent source.

Considering the sheer number of Biblical materials photographed inside Robert Jordan's home office, it would be foolhardy to ignore biblical sources.

To take only one short section Bromiley's essay on Nyn, I liked how it discusses the 'Nyn concept in relation to Veils'. There seems to be a WoT parallel between the Aiel with Veils and Darkness in relation to:

Jews who "until today" have a veil over their hearts and do not understand the true meaning of the Torah (2 Cor. 3:14-16), and who are "now" (nyn) disobedient (Rom. 11:31; cf Jn. 8:52; 15:22-24). 1 Jn 2:9 says that anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother "is in the darkness until now {heos arti}." In Lk. 6:25 woe is pronounced upon those who are "full now {nyn}" and "laugh now."

Nakomi's character in Towers of Midnight, notably lacks a veil and helps bring Light into existence (fire).



In terms of the Eve part of Nyn-A-Eve, I'll leave you all with Wikipedia's backgrounder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eve).

Granted Moghedien using compulsion on Masema, speak to Nynaeve al'Meara as if she already knows who she truly is. Moghedien is unique being able to identify who Nynaeve al'Meara is, even behind illusions (See TPoD book). Her Dreams, her soul. Eve similarities in bold:

“Peace favor your sword,” Uno said, echoed by Ragan.

“Peace favor the Lord Dragon” was the reply, “and his Light illumine us all.” Nynaeve’s breath caught. There was no doubt to his meaning; the Lord Dragon was the source of the Light. And he had the nerve to speak of blasphemy from others!

“Have you come to the Light at last?”

“We walk in the Light,” Ragan said carefully. “As always.” Uno kept silent, his face blank.

Weary patience made an odd play on Masema’s sour features. “There is no way to the Light save through the Lord Dragon. You will see the way and the truth in the end, for you have seen the Lord Dragon, and only those whose souls are swallowed in the Shadow can see and not believe. You are not such. You will believe.”

In spite of the heat and the wool shawl, goose bumps crawled along Nynaeve’s arms. Total conviction filled the man’s voice, and this close she could see a glint in his nearly black eyes that bordered on madness. He swept those eyes over her, and she stiffened her knees. He made the most rabid Whitecloak she had ever seen appear mild. Those fellows in the alley were only a pale imitation of their master.

“You, woman. Are you ready to come to the Light of the Lord Dragon, abandoning sin and flesh?”

“I walk in the Light as best I can.” She was irritated to find herself speaking as carefully as Ragan. Sin? Who did he think he was?

“You are too concerned with the flesh.” Masema’s gaze was withering as it swept over her red dress and the shawl wrapped tightly around her.

“And what do you mean by that?” Uno’s eye widened in startlement, and Ragan made small shushing motions, yet she could as soon have flown as stopped. “Do you think you have a right to tell me how to dress?” Before she quite realized what she was doing, she had untied the shawl and looped it over her elbows; it really was much too hot, anyway. “No man has that right, for me or any other woman! If I chose to go naked, it would be none of your concern!”


The Fires of Heavens, Chapter 39 "Encounters in Samara" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, with Ragan, Uno, Masema and Moghedien in the Kitchen in front of a soup kettle needing stirred.

Laughing, line by line this above scene's chapter is LOADED with imagery and echoes of things to come. I fully expect both Brandon Sanderson and Team Jordan have picked over Nynaeve's chapters in particular.


However, I think Robert Jordan is going somewhere else with Nynaeve's character than towards a classical biblical tale. His use of Eve's name within Nynaeve, seems to be similar his prior use of Tolkien's imagery up to 'The Nine Rings' Inn in TEOTW book. Just a hint something else is a foot. Each literary illusion is quite fishy, all is not is how it seems at first glance or reading: be it the Tolkien's The Nine Rings references (a Kinswomen who rebelled and married a man in secret? A Kinswomen eyes & ears innkeeper watching the Giant female Sa'angreal in Cairhien, for who?) or Nynaeve's own name within a name. Where to? South Asia mythologies combined with Australian aboriginal 'Dreamtime' folklore & myths in particular.


Outside of Nyn-a-eve:

Other broader WoT influences include Ovid's 'Metamorphoses'; Mark Twain; Jane Austin; Joseph Campbell's 'Hero of Thousand Faces', Fon Kings (Dahomey of West Africa & later Charleston, South Carolina -- Elayne's female Queens Guards are a kin to Fon King's female Amazon Guards; Leopard metaphors found across WoT are also a kin to Fon King's thousands of leopard wives--hints at parallels towards Matrim Cauthon's future relationship to female channelers in AMoL book (Yes, a prediction! Women will want Matrim, like a cat in heat advertises for a mate.)); Robert Heinlein's 'World as Myth' series ('To Sail Beyond the Sunset' reference was given as a direct clue: Loial's reading book.). Repeatedly in interviews RJ heaped praise upon praise for Robert Heinlein's writings & books.






As a side note if you balefire someone back before they made a decision that created a mirror world does that mean a whole lot of mirror worlds would suddenly cease to exist because the decision they made that created the mirror world was essentially never made. Man thats getting complex.


Answer: No.

Balefire is a mechanism found in this particular Mirror World. Balefire is dependent on this particular Pattern's Creator(s) allowing it.

Perpendicular Worlds cannot be balefired. Why not? Because Perpendicular Worlds are a layer within the broader World of Dreams. Perpendicular Worlds are a type of reservoir or a constant data back-up mechanism.


I do find it curious that of all individuals, Nynaeve al'Meara used the balefire weave in a moment of need, without anyone ever having to teaching her it. It's the scene when Nynaeve meets Rhuarc the first time in Cairhien (See 'The Dragon Reborn' book).



Skimming


Argh, this thread posting has touched the surface many different facts, ideas, hypotheses, theories, parallels... yet really hasn't focused on Skimming per se.


What is Skimming? It's a layer within the World of Dream, a layer of glue interconnecting a manifold of Dream Worlds, and a manifold of Patterns. Skimming as a mechanism surrounds each space or void.

Is there only one Pattern?
No.

Is there one 'True World'?
No.

What is there?
A World of Dreams. A Third Constant.
A place of open-ended possibilities, 'endless worlds beyond'.


Irritably, Rand pushed his sleeves down and dropped into a chair. What he had done made no matter to Logain. The man knew saidin was clean, but he could not believe Rand or any man had actually done the cleansing. Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffering? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nodding in approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered before Lews Therin. How much space remained between them?


Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 24 "A Strengthening Storm" -- Rand al'Thor point of view with L.T.T. thoughts, while facing Logain and others.




Why did Selene once use the term 'True World'?
Possibly because Stars have been re-born in the Flesh, in a World Selene considers home. It is the specific Dream, Selene recognizes and desires to live it.

Separately, Selene seems to have a concept that saidar & saidin together with two giant sa'angreal can successfully challenge the Dark One or Creator. One of my working hypotheses is Mierin/Lanfear/Selene is incorrect about this assumption.


We can destroy the others. The Great Lord will not care. We can destroy all of them, even Asmodean, once he has taught you all you need to know. You and I can rule the world together under the Great Lord, forever.” Her voice dropped to a whisper, equal parts eagerness and fear. “Two great sa’angreal were made just before the end, one that you can use, one that I can. Far greater than that sword. Their power is beyond imagining. With those, we could challenge even . . . the Great Lord himself. Even the Creator!”


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 9 "Decisions" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Mierin/Lanfear/Selene

Mierin sees Saidar, Saidin as being more powerful than imagination, more powerful than Dreaming. Yet Mierin has less of fully rounded understanding of the Worlds of Dreams, than Moghedien does. However, even Moghedien has grave limitations in her knowledge... or she'd never have chosen to Skim to Shayol Ghul to meet the Dark One.

One other hint is the fact, Shaidar Haran can seemingly prevent channeling around himself, sort of like the effects of the Guardian ter'angreal in Far Madding (which then brings to mind, 'Wells' in Cadsuane & Nynaeve's possession). What can stop the Dark One? Dreaming it. Dreaming is more powerful than Saidar, Saidin or the True Power. To the Eelfinn, "The Power" includes Dreaming. How did readers know this? Matrim Cauthon's Medallion protects its wearer's Dreams.


Is there one real world?
No. There are a manifold number of real worlds, just as there are a manifold number of dreams.

For example, a Crystal Palace balefired in one Dream of Flesh (TGS book by Rand), can spring back to existence in yet another Dream. Nynaeve al'Meara has already once done this:


Creating fantastical flowers or shapes by thinking of them was much more fun. The effort involved seemed related to both how large the thing was and whether it might really exist. Trees covered with wildly shaped blossoms in red and gold and purple were harder to make than a stand-mirror to examine what you had done to your dress, or what the other woman had done to it. A gleaming crystal palace rising out of the ground was harder still , and even if felt solid to the touch, it changed whenever the image in your mind wavered and vanished as soon as the image did. They quietly decided to leave animals alone after a peculiar thing—much like a horse with a horn on its nose!—chased them both up a hill before they could make it vanish.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 49 "To Boannda" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, her thoughts

Existence depends on a Dreamer's imagination & beliefs.


Of Egwene’s trick of appearing in their dreams, as she had in Samara, they could puzzle out nothing; calling her did nothing except increase that uneasy feeling of being watched, and she did not make another such appearance. Trying to hold somebody else in Tel’aran’rhiod was incredibly frustrating, even after Elayne hit on the trick, which was to see the other as just another part of the dream. Elayne did it finally—and Nynaeve congratulated her with as good grace as she could muster—but for days Nynaeve could not. Elayne might as well have been the near mist she seemed, vanishing with a smile whenever she chose. When Nynaeve finally managed to fasten Elayne there, she felt the strain as if she were picking up a boulder.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 49 "To Boannda" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, her thoughts


Who is one this Pattern's likely Creators?
Nynaeve al'Meara.


Who helped cleanse Saidin?
One of this Pattern's likely Creators, Nynaeve al'Meara.

“I am an Asha'man, but there is no taint any longer. Saidin is clean. The Creator decided to show us mercy, it seems.

Knife of Dreams, Chapter 22 "To Make an Anchor Weep" -- Harine point of view, of Logain

Can there be more than one Creator?
Yes.

How do reader's know this?
Lan's literal claims to Nynaeve al'Meara given during her Accepted Test.


Can a Pattern be created by a male?
Yes.

Can a Pattern be created by a female?
Yes.

Can a Pattern be created by both a female and a male together?
Yes.

Proof?
'Sun King with Talia'. (ACOS, Chapter 21)


Your claims are full of sheep's dung for evidence...
Nope. Yet dung beetles are really special...:D

Who is a Dreamer?
Snakes with Legs. Males. The Dragon's soul.
What is Gara, once again? A Reptile, as a snake is a reptile.

Genders who can Dream, are Genders who can Create. Males and Female each can be Creators of a patterned dream.


What an anagram meaning of 'Easing the Badger'?
It's too dirty of a storied tale to speak...
But writing is...

"Dagger Is Beneath" (http://wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=Easing+the+Badger&language=english&t=1000&d=&include=dagger&exclude=&n=&m=&source=adv&a=n&l=n&q=n&k=1)

Go Gambler! Go Warrior! Go Trickster!
Meet your collar! Meet your binding! Meet your marriage dagger!

He pushed into an inn, under a sign of a big, white-striped badger dancing on its hind legs with a man carrying a silver shovel. Easing the Badger, it was called, though not even Nieda Sidoro, the innkeeper, knew what the name meant; there had always been an inn of the name in Illian.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 9 "Leavetakings" -- Bayle Domon point of view

Perrin frowned up at the inn sign for a moment before following the others in. A white-striped badger danced on its hind legs with a man carrying what seemed to be a silver shovel. Easing the Badger, it read.
It must be some story I never heard.

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 42 "Easing the Badger" -- Perrin point of view; in Illian


Go Fool! Go bind the Nine Moons of Dominion! Go move two Ravens! See who shall get the last laughs, Trickster! :p

Birgitte Moondancer has a very good joke to show you. ;)


Nine Moons a binding, Two Ravens a fleeing


Translation:

Matrim Cauthon will bind 'nine crescent moons' to him. It's a kin to the Nine Rods of Dominion repeatedly again by the Wheel's variation. The two ravens, are by Blood related to Hawkwing: Fortuona, Berelain.

Matrim Cauthon's carver's ring directly foreshadows events in AMoL book. The ring of Tamyrlin has been spun out as Matrim Cauthon's carver's ring. The symbols recognize individuals and nation-states who have a dominion relationship to King Cauthon. Dominion as in the sense of the British Commonwealth's use of the term.

Elaida/Suffa will be above the hole in the ground, where ALL these events occur. How? She's foretold it, literally.

Once again, the Nine Rods of Dominion are Rulers of nations, whom Matrim Cauthon shall bind to himself. Nine Rods plus the Two Ravens equals eleven individuals, twelve if one includes Matrim Cauthon himself.


I'll have more to come later on this topic.

One curious nugget, is Harine din Togara Two Winds, Wavemistress First Twelve & a future Mistress of the Ships is likely to be one of the Nine Moons. Another wife to be, perhaps an Asa, for Matrim Cauthon. Young Tairen Lords know Lord Mat wanted to cuddle with a Sea Folk woman... for a change. (See 'The Shadow Rising' book's scene, where the Rulers of Flames, Cups, Rods transforms from a playing card to Attacker).

Others include Elayne (Andor), Aviendha (Aiel), Alliandre (Ghealdin), Amathera (Tarabon), Morgase (Amadicia) et la.


More speculative at this time in my mind, is which Kinswomen shall marry Matrim Cauthon in AMoL? Alise Tenjile perhaps?
Twice the speculation is whether King Darlin will die of poison in bed before Matrim Cauthon gets married? (Min foretelling) If so, does his spouse Caroline Damodred become Queen of Tear? Is Caroline one of the Moons to be bound? I'm unsure.
Is Birgitte Moondancer, one of the Nine Crescent Moons to be bound? Isn't odd Birgitte sat in the Throne of Cairhien, first? (See ToM book)
Will Egwene al'Vere even wait around for Matrim Cauthon to arrive? I've skeptical, as she has things to do in a forest and in the Black Hills... Ditto for Nynaeve al'Meara.
Who will Rule Illian, after Rand al'Thor chooses not rule there anymore? Who will choose? The former Illian King presently at Tar Valon?



Note many nations are bond by oath to one individual or another:


King Beslan's Altara gave an Oath to Fortuona
The Four Borderlander's Rulers gave an Oath to Rand al'Thor.
Five Aiel Clan Chiefs gave an Oath to Rand al'Thor to follow Matrim Cauthon, when he arrives in Illian (finally)
Nynaeve al'Meara (Borderlanders Queen) with Elayne Trakand (Andor) each gave an Oath to Matrim Cauthon, in person at Setalle Anan's Inn in Ebou Dar.


Separately, Valan Luca once claimed that Nynaeve al'Meara would choose him (See TFoH book). Meaning if given a choice, Nynaeve al'Meara does not have to choose Matrim Cauthon. Reason being, by choosing Valan Luca, she is bound to his bows to Fortuona. Valan can offer protection to Nynaeve al'Meara, not just Matrim Cauthon. Fortuona's own written warrant can protect Nynaeve al'Meara. Fortuona claims NEVER to have broken her word.




================================================== ==================================================


Fresh off the presses! A sorted tale of scandalous "sheep swallop and bloody buttered onions!” Food fit for a King! ;);)


Humor me, shall you?!


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Responses to Reader's Questions: Part I



The whole idea of parallel/perpinduclar worlds grates me as it takes the responsibility of making a decision away.

I once had a similar feeling on this very same point, except upon reflection I'm noticed Robert Jordan has add a strong degree of agency to his characters & narrative. Even considering the 'Great Person' emphasis baked into the Wheel of Time series.

In terms of professional historical narratives, the ‘Great Man’ concept is dated and out of fashion--as in Hegal, Nietzsche, Thomas Carlyle et la. However, I do expect Robert Jordan has adopted a few more recent historical narrative practices to be seen in ‘A Memory of Light’. By this I mean, more of an emphasis on Society as a shaper, than an object to be shaped by a “Great Man” (e.g. Dragon). Forged. Built.

The character of Valan Luca has been forged by Society. He has been shaped for a reason.


Question what do the Dreamers want to Dream of? Dreaming is indeed a responsibility. Dreaming can heal illnesses, Dreaming can kill, Dreaming is open-ended.



If for every major decision that is made a new world starts where the opposite decision is made then this whole story is a waste of time.

Question is how do individuals act under stress?

It’s a literary story of psychological tensions, under the guise of submission, domination. Conflict. Change. Becoming.

A Metamorpheses meets Mark Twain; Jane Austin meets A Thousand and One Nights; Ganesha meets King Arthur; Homer meets Robert A. Heinlein’s World as Myth: “‘To Sail Beyond the Sunset’.

It terms of film, the Wheel of Time is Cecil B. DeMille-esque. He's a ironic Hollywood Director, who help create the Industry. (See: 'Empire of dreams (http://books.google.com/books?id=jwjXltLIqRoC&lpg=PP1&dq=cecil%20b.%20demille&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false)') Multiple parallels exists between DeMille and one of WoT's own famous characters: Valan Luca.


What’s going to occur if Rand al’Thor dies, yet the Dark One is still free?


Failure.

Oh, to fail...
Like a Falcon, named Fail-e.



If the dark one wins because Rand made a bad decision in this world then the dark one will lose in one of the other worlds where Rand made the other decision.

Chuckles, who do you think Rand al’Thor is?

Who is the Dragon?
Who is a False Dragon?
Who is a Plowman?
Who is the Moon?
Who is the Sun?

Who is Who?
Who made Who?
Who turns the Screw?
Ain’t anyone told You?
Who saves WoT?


Who's sit'n on a harvey blasting AC/DC, with a razor blade, while herding up the hens & swans?





Black Stars Light

It is the Dark One's defeat or victory in that centre reality which matters; he has no reflection in the others (because reflections are made of light, and he is pure darkness which cannot be reflected), and thus no matter what the forces which serve light or dark do in those worlds, his freedom can never come in them.

Technically speaking the Dark One does cast a 'black light' upon his Chosen and peons. Shaidar Haran casts a 'black light' (TGS book). Even some Star's can and do cast a black light:


Absently, she studied the nearest lights in the blackness. She did not recognize any of them. They held absolutely still around her, shimmering stars frozen in clear black ice.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 14 "Dreams and Nightmares" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; in the Tel'aran'rhoid (World of Dreams)


The only being I know of whom casts no light is 'The Creature': Padan Fain Mordeth Sammael. Why? Because the Creature has cut his "cords" to both the Creator, and the Dark One. Why? To rid himself of nightmares, and attacks by agents of the Dark One. Why? To be free, to get revenge upon the Dark One.




Automatons or not?

I would be careful how far you take that, Zombie.

And people may have (relatively) free will in the true world, while the mirrors are just automatons, and act in a deterministic sense with respect to their respective world.

Oh really? An automaton is what Moghedien can become...


His thumb stroked, and she felt that caress across her mind, her soul. Breaking a mindtrap did not require much more pressure than he was using. She could be on the other side of the world or farther, and it would not matter a hair. The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes and hear with her ears, taste what crossed her tongue and feel what touched her, but helpless within an automaton that was utterly obedient to whoever held the cour’souvra.

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 25 "Mindtrap" -- Moghedien point of view; her thoughts upon meeting Moridin.


Laugh, next your going to say Mierin's 'True World' is a 'Fourth Constant'. Mind you, Verin claimed there was only Three Constants: Creator, Dark One, World of Dreams. I don't see any True World on that list. How you like Paradoxes?



Simply put the Skimming space or zone is one Onion like layer of the broader World of Dreams. Between Onion layer space in the World of Dreams is a thin wall. Additionally each manifold World of Dream layers is a kin to an Egg Shell and an Apple. Robert Jordan has used all three metaphors: Onion, Egg Shell, Apple in relation to describing and the catch term World of Dreams.


Time is another layer to the Onion of the World of Dreams:


“Was it real?”

All is real, what is seen, and what is not seen. That seemed to be all the answer Hopper was going to give.

“Hopper, how are you here? I saw you die. I felt you die!”

All are here. All brothers and sisters that are, all that were, all that will be. Perrin knew that wolves did not smile, not the way humans did, but for an instant he had the impression that Hopper was grinning. Here, I soar like the eagle. The wolf gathered himself and leaped, up into the air. Up and up it carried him, until he dwindled to a speck in the sky, and a last thought came. To soar.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 36 “Daughter of the Night” – Perrin point of view, with Hopper in the Wolf Dream


Decisions and their outcomes, are another layer to the Onion like essence of the World of Dreams:

She opened her eyes and smiled up at him. “I kept dreaming you would come, blacksmith.”

“I will have you free in a moment, Faile.” He raised his hammer, smashed one of the bolts as if it were wood.

“I was sure of it. Perrin.”

As his name faded from her tongue, she faded, too. With a clatter, the chains dropped to the stone where she had been.

“No!” he cried. “I found her!”

The dream is not like the world of flesh, Young Bull. Here, the same hunt can have many endings.

He did not turn to look at Hopper. He knew his teeth were bared in a snarl. Again he raised the hammer, brought it down with all his strength against the chains that had held Faile. The stone block cracked in two under his blow; the Stone itself rang like a stuck bell.

“Then I will hunt again,” he growled.

Hammer in hand, Perrin strode out of the room with Hopper beside him. The Stone was a place of men. And men, he knew, were crueler hunters than ever wolves were.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 54 “Into the Stone” – Perrin point of view, with Hopper in a Wolf Dream with multiple endings

Decisions and their outcomes, are inherently Perpendicular in nature.

Yet Wolves do not seem to know or understand everything about the World of Dreams:


I suspect Stars would shine brightly in the Skimming space, if the Dark One was sealed away completely. Problem is the Dark One can and does roam. Dark One has invaded the Skimming space, found in the World of Dreams. Conquered?


Now how to try make sense of World of Dreams multiple layers simply, when change is the norm?



Deterministic?


No, up to Dreamers completely. One can create a Heaven, Hell or both, it's their choice.



“I do not know what is happening, Nynaeve, but I feel as if I were losing you. I could not bear that.” He put a hand in her hair; closing her eyes, she pressed her cheek against his fingers. “Stay with me, always.”

“I want to stay,” she said softly. “I want to stay with you.” When she opened her eyes, the arch was gone . . . come but once. “No. No!”

Lan turned her to face him. “What troubles you? You must tell me if I’m to help.”

“This is not real.”

“Not real? Before I met you, I thought nothing except the sword was real. Look around you, Nynaeve. It is real. Whatever you want to be real, we can make real together, you and I.”

Wonderingly, she did look around. The meadow was still there. The Seven Towers still stood over the Thousand Lakes. The arch was gone, but nothing else had changed. I could stay here. With Lan. Nothing has changed. Her thoughts turned. Nothing has changed. Egwene is alone in the White Tower. Rand will channel the Power and go mad. And what of Mat and Perrin? Can they take back any shred of their lives? And Moiraine, who tore all our lives apart, still walks free.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 23 "The Testing" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view; during her Accepted Test--in a World of Dreams



Ironically the Amayar's belief is partially correct, Flesh is indeed an Illusion.

However the Amayar's difficulty is their apparent belief that Earth's World of Dreams is safer than the World of Flesh from the Dark One's touch. Unfortunately is false, as Birgitte and the Wolves among others know.


Rats, Ravens, Cows and Owls: Beware!



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Responses to Reader's Questions: Part II


Myrddraal

Well, I am working under the assumption that Myddraal aren't just deformed Trollocs, but a different creature altogether.

Myrddraal are a species parallel to mules, if one believes the BWB on this question:

Trollocs do not always breed true; instead they sometimes produce throwbacks to either the animal or the human side of their genetics. The throwbacks to the animal half die, but the throwbacks to the human side usually survive, though corrupted by the evil of their original makers, and are called Myrddraal.

Robert Jordan also gave a WoTmania interview where he claimed:

The True Power as well as the One Power was used in creation of Trollocs, which proved to be uncontrollable and useless as soldiers until the first Myrddraal were born, throwbacks to the human stock used in creating Trollocs, but twisted by the inclusion of the True Power in making Trollocs.

Source: eWoT summary of interview (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/creatures/fade.html)



Considering that Trollocs were originally created using both the True Power and the One Power, one can deduce why Trollocs cannot survive a Traveling gateway. The One Power essence of Trollocs is cut, by the Traveling gateway closing. A slightly similar One Power example, is when Lan's Bond to Moiraine Sedai is cut, when the Eelfinn Portal is destroyed.


Question then arises, why do Trollocs and Shadowspawn die in a Traveling gateway, while Warder's only go into a type of rage? In Lan's case, Moiraine set-up a method so Lan's Warder bond was passed to another. However, for Trollocs the Dark One has not pass nor eliminated their bond(s). Yet Trollocs do not go into a rage when a Myrdraal bond holder dies, they just die.


As the Fade’s head fell to roll across the floor, the remaining Trollocs fell, too, shrieking, kicking, tearing at their heads with coarse-haired hands. It was a weakness of Myrddraal and Trollocs. Even Myrddraal did not trust Trollocs, so they often linked with them in some way Rand did not understand; it apparently ensured the Trollocs’ loyalty, but those linked to a Myrddraal did not survive its death long.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 10 "The Stone Stands" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; in the Stone at Tear.


Bonds of the Shadow: Moridin, Rand


If the Dark One can use Myrddraal to control Trollocs; how about the Dark One using a Chosen like Moridin for a wayward individual like Rand al'Thor? Recollect Rand's channeling sickness found after Lord of Chaos book, that what I'm referring to in particular. If the Dark One cannot freely turn a soul, always an alternate plan. Isam is to Luc, what Moridin is to Rand. A question of linkages or bonds.




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Anagrams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anagram) of character's names


Berelain sur Paendrag (http://wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=Berelain+sur+Paendrag&language=english&t=5000&d=&include=&exclude=&n=&m=&source=adv&a=n&l=n&q=n&k=1)


A Leer Spurned Bargain / A Bargain Spurned Leer
Separable Under A Ring
A Ruler Bargained Pens
A Barraged Eel Rips Nun


I'm sure HCFF's can find far more apt anagrams of Berelain sur Paendrag's name... out of 2673 candidate words (http://wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=Berelain+sur+Paendrag&language=english&t=5000&d=&include=&exclude=&n=&m=&source=adv&a=n&l=y&q=y&k=1) found in the English language.

I groaned horribly, upon reading many of Berelain's anagrams combination candidates.


Ishamael


A Ham Lies
A Ham Isle
Leash Am I / I Am Leash
I Ash Meal / I Male Ash
Ha Sail Em
Me As Hail / Hail As Me



Moridin


Om Rind I / I Rind Om {'Om' in the Sanskit sense}
Om Rid In / Rid in Om
Nimrod I (http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/n/nimrodi.htm)



And so on...

Nynaeve al'Meara (http://wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=Nynaeve+al%27Meara&language=english&t=5000&d=&include=&exclude=&n=&m=&source=adv&a=n&l=n&q=n&k=1)


Why Anagrams?

If it was good enough for Robert Heinlein, it's good enough for a more talented Robert Jordan to try his hand at...

The Unreasoner
09-01-2011, 01:40 PM
So I'm back. Anagrams? Okay.
Nynaeve al'Meara => Ye, A Raven Am Elan

Crispin's Crispian
09-01-2011, 02:46 PM
I think "A Barraged Eel Rips Nun" is certainly the answer.

After spending a great deal of time being "questioned" by the Seanchan (barraged), Berelain will come to follow their philosophy that Aes Sedai (nuns) are marath'damane must be leashed.


For Isha'mael,

A Ham Lies

Indicates his aversion to traditional authority. And,

A Ham Isle

must have something to do with breakfast at Shayol Ghul...before it was corrupted.


ETA:
All kidding aside, you seem to be ignoring the literary and mythological roots of these names, Felix. Isha'mael and Ishmael, Moridin and Mordred or death, Nynaeve and Nimue/Nimian...

FelixPax
09-01-2011, 05:24 PM
For Isha'mael,

A Ham Lies

Indicates his aversion to traditional authority. And,

A Ham Isle

must have something to do with breakfast at Shayol Ghul...before it was corrupted.

Musingly enough, RJ did toss in Ham metaphors all across the series. Teslyn has once been called a 'Summer Ham', by Elayne of all people, back in Ebou Dar. Aviendha was about as confused of this phrase as I once was. Now I have a decent conceptual idea about it's dimensions.


Life's going to get tougher for Rand...
One more hand to lose...

Life's tough for a bloody stump...
What's left of a bloody stump of a ta'veren.



ETA:
All kidding aside, you seem to be ignoring the literary and mythological roots of these names, Felix. Isha'mael and Ishmael, Moridin and Mordred or death, Nynaeve and Nimue/Nimian...

Linda over at Thirteen Depository has a decent size list of mythological & literary for most of major WoT characters, however not Valan Luca, Ila, Nemaris though. I've tried not to repeat her work, yet everyone has seems to have a blind spot. Even yours truly. :o

Granted, I hold a very strong view Linda has come to a series false conclusions about Mierin/Lanfear/Selene/Moonhunter/Elsie Grinwell character names parallels. Easy enough to fall for this particular trap, if one's not paying close attention to details of imagery & psychology in the Wheel of Time.

Outside of WoT itself, one's interpretation of how to view the Moon, depends GREATLY upon the prism of one's sources or customs. Freemason's among others have their own take on the Moon (http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/Moon.html). Robert Jordan has purposely playing with societies varying point views about the Moon. He creates uncertainty groups tied to the Moon: Mierin/Moonhunter, Dragon's Fang, Trollocs Horns, Children of the Light et al.



One of Nynaeve's WoT names or alias, is Nana. That's the name she choose for herself, during the time with Valan Luca's Circus.

An obvious connection that comes to mind is of Nanna Nepsdóttir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanna_(Norse_deity)), the Norse deity, off hand. It terms of WoT based Foretellings & Dreams, some parts of this Norse deity's background fit future scenes of 'A Memory of Light'.

One name parallel of Nynaeve's alias, Nana is the Sumero-Akkadian Goddess of Transoxiana. For example, see Merlin Stone's 'When God was a woman (http://books.google.com/books?id=hI-nMhUxXNcC&lpg=PR11&ots=tPA_MdNG_J&dq=Nana%20god&lr&pg=PA9#v=onepage&q=Nana&f=false)'.

Hear O ye regions, the praise of Queen Nana; Magnify the Creatress; exalt the dignified; exalt the Glorious One; draw nigh to the Mighty Lady

Sumer, Nineteenth Century BC


Nana name origin parallels for Nynaeve al'Meara's Wheel of Time character include:


Nana, Mother goddess Armenia
Nana, Goddess spring Babylon
Nana Buluku Fon, Supreme god Africa {NOTE: The Fon's customs of Plural Family is parallel to Aiel Clans, Da'Shain Aiel's. Many aspects of Fon society & mythology are in parallel to Wheel of Time IMHO.}
Nana Buruku, Goddess of earth and water Cuba
Nanabohozo Ojibwa, God who influences the success or failure of hunters Canada/USA
Nanabush, Creator and good spirit Algonquin
Nanahuatl, Creator god Aztec
Nanai, Stellar deity Sumeria
Nanaja, War and goddess of fertility Babylon/Mesopotamia/Akkadia
Nanan Bouclou, God of herbs and medicine Ewe
Nanautzin, God of disease Aztec
Nanabush Algonquin (Wikipedia's take (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanabozho))

Nanabush (also spelled Nenabush, Nanabozho, Manabush, Manabozho, Manibozho, Nanahboozho, and several other ways.) Nanabush is the benevolent culture hero of the Anishinaabe tribes (sometimes referred to as a "transformer" by folklorists.) His name is spelled so many different ways partially because the Anishinabe languages were originally unwritten (so English speakers just spelled it however it sounded to them at the time), and partially because the Ojibway and Algonquin languages are spoken across a huge geographical range in both Canada and the US, and the name sounds different in different dialects. In the Ottawa dialect, it is usually pronounced nuh-nah-boash or muh-nah-boash, but sometimes the pronunciation can vary from storyteller to storyteller. Nanabush sharessome similarities with other Algonquian heroes such as the Wabanaki Gluskabe, Blackfoot Napi, and Cree Wesakaychak, and many of the same stories are told in different Algonquian tribes with only the identity of the protagonist differing.

Source (http://www.native-languages.org/ottawa-legends.htm)

Inana (http://books.google.com/books?id=aqDC5bwx4_wC&lpg=PA11&ots=0-45hyqn2Q&dq=Aksayajnana%20Karmanda&pg=PA137#v=snippet&q=Inana&f=false), Goddess of fertility, of love and war Mesopotamia/Sumeria (See link (http://books.google.com/books?id=aqDC5bwx4_wC&lpg=PA11&ots=0-45hyqn2Q&dq=Aksayajnana%20Karmanda&pg=PA137#v=snippet&q=Inana&f=false)to 'Dictionary of gods and goddesses By Michael Jordan')
Innana, Goddess of love, procreation, and war Sumeria
Jnanadakini (http://books.google.com/books?id=aqDC5bwx4_wC&lpg=PA11&ots=0-45hyqn2Q&dq=Aksayajnana%20Karmanda&pg=PA149#v=onepage&q=Jnanadakini&f=false) (knowledge), Goddess. Buddhist (Mahayana). An emanation of the AKSOBHYA and the SAKTI of yogambara. Color: blue. Attributes: ax, bell, club, cup, staff and sword.
Aksayajnana-Karmanda (http://books.google.com/books?id=aqDC5bwx4_wC&lpg=PA11&ots=0-45hyqn2Q&dq=Aksayajnana%20Karmanda&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q=Aksayajnana%20Karmanda&f=false) (undecaying knowledge of Karma) -- One of a group of 12 DHARANIS. The deification of literature. Buddhist. Color: red. Attributes: basket with jewels, and staff.



Nanna parallels?


Nanna, Goddess of plants and flowers germanic
Nanna, Goddess of the moon norse
Nanna, God of the moon Mesopotamia/Sumeria/Iraq
Manannan, God of fertility and the ocean Celtic
Manannan Mac Lir[Llyr], Shape shifter and chief sea god Ireland/Welsh



================================================== ==================================================


Was the character of Ishara, re-born as the soul of Nynaeve al'Meara?

A possibility, indeed.
Elayne's ancient forebear was Nynaeve's soul? :rolleyes:

Remember the Sword the House of Matherin, gave to the first Queen of Andor, Ishara? :D



================================================== ==================================================


A Big Deal Theory: Dark Prophecy, a 3rd unremarked upon story



Recently upon reflection, I've wondering if Nynaeve al'Meara is the embodiment of "the moon", as a Wheel of Time character.

For the first time, he realized that Nynaeve was not wearing the Two Rivers woolens he was used to. Her dress was pale blue silk, embroidered in snowdrop blossoms around the neck and down the sleeves. Each blossom centered on a small pearl, and her belt was tooled in silver, with a silver buckle set with pearls. He had never seen her in anything like that. Even feastday clothes back home might not match it.

“You’re going to the feast?”


The Great Hunt, Chapter 6 "Dark Prophecy" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Nynaeve al'Meara


Not who I've for a long time have considered a Moon tied character, Mierin. Mierin seems to hunt for the moon, if her Wolf given Name is accurate to go by? Moonhunter.

I'm undecided about Nynaeve connection to the Moon, but I can see this as a possibility. Silver reflects the Sun's light at night. If the Sun is Valan Luca, the Moon is Nynaeve al'Meara.


Lanfear or Mierin never was given the Name "Daughter of the Night". Mierin had to created or take this Name from someone else, in the Second Age. Mierin needs to create a Stage name, a lie, for the Dark One.

Lanfear. In the Old Tongue, Daughter of the Night. Nowhere was her real name recorded, but that was the name she had taken for herself, unlike most of the Forsaken, who had been named by those they betrayed.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 7 "Blood Calls Blood" -- Moiraine point of view, with Verin, Siuan


Silver jewelry has a special set of meanings to Miao/Hmong Clans found in Vietnam, China and elsewhere. Meanings which I do believe, Robert Jordan has drawn from.


“Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.
Who shall stand against her coming?
The Shining Walls shall kneel.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 7 "Blood Calls Blood" -- Moiraine point of view; Verin speaking, Siuan listening

Yes, the Dark Prophecy given in Blood Calls Blood has at least two obvious meanings, if not three meanings. That's three story lines or possibilities running parallel:

Who is the Daughter of the Night?


Cyndane as the Daughter of the Night (a Creation of Moridin's compulsion)
Mierin as the Daughter of the Night
Nynaeve's soul as the Daughter of the Night--I limit this particular comparison to "the Moon".



Who is the Daughter of the Night's new lover?


If one believes Cyndane plot arc, it's Rand al'Thor
If one believes Mierin plot arc, it's Rand al'Thor
If one believes Nynaeve al'Meara plot arc, it's either Lan or Valan Luca


Granted Mierin's and Rand al'Thor story is a parallel.

However, I now tend to favor the 3rd outline of possibility with Valan Luca as the 'new lover', if one's looking at the 'Dark Prophecy's' meanings specifically.



Nynaeve al'Meara will choose Valan Luca's protection in the end. Luca knows this, in his heart of hearts (TFoH book).
Valan Luca is the one ultimately whom, Fortuona is thinking about, when referencing the Dragon of the Essanik Cycle.
Valan Luca has already bowed to Tuon, when she was Empress unknowingly. Neither understood the importance of those bows, at the time (KoD book).
By accepting Luca's protection, Nynaeve protects herself from the Seanchan Empire and its a'dam. Why? Tuon claims to NEVER has broken her word.


As much I've enjoyed Valan Luca's character over the years, in marked contrast to most other HCFF seemingly... it's a bit sad to strongly suspect Valan Luca is going to die.

Oh well, it's only a Flesh Dream after all. :D

final death
02-18-2012, 06:12 PM
Felix while your posts and discussions are amusing i do think your either a troll or completely insane. That said you are amazing with your continually assertion that valan luca is the true dragon reborn despite all evidence to the contrary. On the other hand when you post stuff even I sometime think you have decent proof for your theories. Which in turn makes me think your insanity is contagious. Kind of like mad cow disease.

Terez
02-18-2012, 06:19 PM
Felix while your posts and discussions are amusing i do think your either a troll or completely insane. That said you are amazing with your continually assertion that valan luca is the true dragon reborn despite all evidence to the contrary. On the other hand when you post stuff even I sometime think you have decent proof for your theories. Which in turn makes me think your insanity is contagious. Kind of like mad cow disease.Have you seen his cow spies theory? It's so awesome, it won an award.

I had to footnote his questions a few times in the database so the readers wouldn't be scratching their heads and wondering what they were missing. And so Felix tells me on Twitter today:

Felix (https://twitter.com/TinkerPride/status/170797369238093824)
It's a large improvement, over what existed previously, in terms of convenience. Though, I don't agree with some of the commentary.
Felix (https://twitter.com/TinkerPride/status/170798181129531392)
I'm referring to some of glaring offensive, commentary about Felix Pax in particular. It's unnecessary.And then I had to explain to him that, no really, it was necessary.

suttree
02-18-2012, 10:07 PM
Have you seen his cow spies theory? It's so awesome, it won an award.

I had to footnote his questions a few times in the database so the readers wouldn't be scratching their heads and wondering what they were missing. And so Felix tells me on Twitter today:

And then I had to explain to him that, no really, it was necessary.

LOL

Terez
02-18-2012, 11:14 PM
Felix (https://twitter.com/#!/TinkerPride/status/171091818811895808)
If #WoT forums are filled up with 'normal people', then the sheer majority of readers are missing why RJ wrote the way he did..

FelixPax
02-25-2012, 06:11 AM
.

Yes, that's my point of view.

It's also a reason why I suspect most reader's tended to approved of Brandon's style of writing #TGS, #ToM books MORE THAN, how Robert Jordan wrote #ACoS to #CoT books.

Most #WoT readers seem to dislike #ACoS to #CoT books, because they do not understand what Robert Jordan was doing. There's an alternative narrative underneath the Rand centered Dragon narrative... and Robert Jordan's unique prose is a window into narrative.

In my own case, it took a very long time for me to apprentice Robert Jordan's style of prose. However after paying better attention to details, word definitions, and poetic styles of writings--I find this structural style of a narrative attractive. It's more fluid, dynamic and descriptive.


It's quite jarring to read, Brandon Sanderson's style of prose in the Wheel of Time in contrast. Perhaps this is because Brandon, does not fully grasp, how Robert Jordan interwove his net of symbolic prose?


One just cannot grasp Robert Jordan prose, by reading an eWoT summary of the #WoT series. It's simply is NOT possible. eWoT like the vast majority of #WoT fan forum writers, has blind spots and misses where Robert Jordan's prose is heading to.


After reading two #WoT books, with Brandon Sanderson's impressions place upon them, I am hesitant to trust his literary judgment in this universe. He once had my trust, but has since lost it. At this point, I question whether his heart & mind are into writing an high quality book, or has this become a marketing pump and dump operation?


I'm love to listen to what Harriet's, Alan's and Maria's point of view is, after everything is said and done. Afterall, #WoT has been is their livelihood for years and years. Unlike Brandon, the #WoT series is their only baby. Whereas Brandon has his hands in multiple other ongoing series. There's an inherit incentives conflict:


Brandon's a Pluralist.
Team Jordan is a Monogamist.

Terez
02-25-2012, 06:42 AM
After reading two #WoT books, with Brandon Sanderson's impressions place upon them, I am hesitant to trust his literary judgment in this universe. He once had my trust, but has since lost it. At this point, I question whether his heart & mind are into writing an high quality book, or has this become a marketing pump and dump operation?
I think the indications at this point are that Brandon is taking fan criticism to heart, and is dedicated to making AMOL better than the previous books. He won't match RJ when it's done, but I think he will get closer, and that's all we can ask for at this point. I mean, at least he can construct sentences properly. We could be reading WoT written by Felix. :p

I'm love to listen to what Harriet's, Alan's and Maria's point of view is, after everything is said and done. Afterall, #WoT has been is their livelihood for years and years. Unlike Brandon, the #WoT series is their only baby. Whereas Brandon has his hands in multiple other ongoing series. There's an inherit incentives conflict:


Brandon's a Pluralist.
Team Jordan is a Monogamist.

lol. I think that's not so much a conflict as a balance. Now, there's the fact that Brandon is a bit of a minimalist, and RJ hated minimalism. But at the same time, Brandon feels weird trying to write any other way. I think he came a long way between Mistborn and TGS. It still wasn't perfect, but it showed the ability to improve.

suttree
02-25-2012, 11:03 AM
eWoT like the vast majority of #WoT fan forum writers, has blind spots and misses where Robert Jordan's prose is heading to.


So most people don't understand what Jordan is doing(including possibly BS) and are wrong about where it is heading but you have managed to "crack the code"? Good work old boy, should be interesting to discuss post aMoL.