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Ishara
08-26-2011, 03:57 PM
To recap the concept:

First, pop over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5669) for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

This week, we're discussing Graedal also known as Kamarile Maradim Nindar:

Graendal is a mystery to us. We know that she is truly the only Forsaken with such a delineation between her past before the Bore and afterwards. Note that the BWB doesn't mark that delineation from the time of her going over to the Shadow, but rather associates it with the fact that she likely came to the realization that the world could not live up to her harsh standards. The change is not linked to the Dark One, or to the Bore itself. Could she be one who went over simply because they felt it was the winning side?

Prior to the Bore, she was a noted ascetic who preached to others that living a spare and simple life was the way to go. The BWB further notes that while her public calls for asceticism were moderate, in private she was abrasive and nasty to those who did not live up to her expectations (aka everyone). She was world famous for her abilities to address mental illness that the One Power and Healing could not touch, and was noted to be one of the best at the subtle manipulations of the mind that ever lived.

She made her metamorphosis within 10 years of the Bore, and was believed to have sworn allegiance to the Shadow within the first 25 years of the Collapse.

The really interesting thing about Graedal to me is her complete shift from an ascetic life of simplicity and healing to one of hedonism and harm. She was known to use her skills with mental illness and manipulation to her advantage as Leader of the Shadow and used those skills to harm, to cause suicide, to incite riots and to sway impressionable minds.

How does one truly turn their back on an old way of life? Do we think that she surrounded herself with sex and other hedonistic delights to compensate for missing out? To prove that she could roll with the best of them?

We know that she of all people doesn't actually need to use Compulsion if given the opportunity, and yet her favourite method is closer to a hammer than anything else. It's as if she gave up all attempts at subtlety in her new life. And yet, we see her using those old skills to analyze and react to others, including manipulating Sammael. What else of that old lifestyle, that old contempt, lies beneath the surface?

confused at birth
08-26-2011, 04:18 PM
i liked one theory that she was never good but liked to be better than everyone else which is why she was so good to start with and when she turned she wanted to be better than the others at being bad.

so she made herself to be self indulgent to show how much better at evil she was than the others. and she does think of it as an act at least once but i cant remember which book it was in, but i think that she now has the same problem Rand had is that she played her part for so long it started to become true.

Zombie Sammael
08-26-2011, 04:40 PM
Up until my current re-read, I had always felt Granedal was the least effective of the Forsaken, but now that view has turned on its head. I think my initial position was because every other Forsaken seemed to have a "place" right from the get-go: Ishy was in charge; Rahvin, Be'lal, and Sammael used their powers to take over nations; Lanfear was trying to control Rand; Mesaana was in the Tower; Aginor and Balthamel were dead, then spied on the rebels and the Asha'man; we didn't know what Demandred was doing but we knew he was up to no good somewhere, and for a while we thought he was Taim; Semirhage was in charge of the Seanchan; even Moghedien and Asmodean had been shown to have schemes that backfired. Graendal's mission, for at least the first half of the series, was just to keep herself in comfort and pamper herself, or so it seemed.

But she was also the Forsaken that we got the most POVs of, and in fact the whole time she was manipulating Sammael to her own ends. Her plan to take out Perrin was a good one, foiled only by her self-assurance of her own victory, and her escape from Naetrin's Barrow was clever. She almost seems to have behaved as if she was never a contender for Nae'blis and she knew it, but dammit if she wasn't going to have a lot of fun first. She seems to have gone from ascetism to a sort of nihilistic hedonism that's only concerned with the Great Lord as far as he'll let her do what she wants, and seems to find direct involvement as distasteful as the spider.

Those are my thoughts as far as the end of TPOD, anyway. It'll be interesting to see what I spot in the later part of the series.

Oneirist
08-27-2011, 04:50 AM
Graendal's 180 always seemed as though she had just given up -- at least on trying to appear better than everyone that way. The world just wouldn't live up to her standards, so why should she alone continue to make such an effort? It's understandable, although it always sounded to me as if her asceticism was driven by a holier-than-thou need to appear/feel superior to others. This is expressed in those she surrounds herself with -- that is, her zombie puppets that she forces to worship her. Her narcissism seemed to have been fairly well established even back then; she had just given it free, malignant rein during the Collapse.

Toss the dice
08-27-2011, 11:09 AM
It seems to me that Graendal so far has actually helped the Light more than the Shadow, through her own bumbling.

From what I can remember, she was largely non-existent and noneffective over the long duration of the first 75% or more of the series. Her relatively brief stint afterwards, when she actually had the attention of Rand and moved more in the open, went horribly. Now she is in the clutches of Shaidar Haran for her failures, which were pretty severe.

A quick list from what I can remember:

-helped Sammael with his Shaido/boxes campaign. would be noteworthy, but virtually all of the credit goes to him.

-killed Kumira at the Cleansing

-managed to get her stronghold balefired shortly after drawing the attention of Rand. barely escaped with her life and got Aran'gar killed.

-it is not confirmed for us 100%, but Shaidar Haran blamed her for the death of Asmodean, apparently she was at least involved

-was blamed for the death of Mesaana regarding the White Tower dreamspike incident

-set a noteworthy trap for Perrin, but failed to kill him

I could be wrong and forgetting all sorts of stuff, but to me Graendal has accomplished very little of any measurable value. The first majority of the series she did little besides plot to no real ends. The last couple books, when she actually did something tangible - resulted in nothing but failures, most of them severe. She has been at least partially responsible for three Forsaken deaths.

Overall, I would say Graendal has been a considerable boon to the Light, as she hasn't really accomplished anything to hurt it, and has hurt the Shadow quite severely. In fact, I think she easily ranks up there with Moghedien (information and assistance given while collared) and Asmodean (training Rand) in this regard.

Graendal may be one of the more crafty and conniving Forsaken, but on paper the results of her actions and schemes have been very poor. That's my take.

GonzoTheGreat
08-27-2011, 11:25 AM
She kept the entire west of the continent in a state of continual chaos. If that hadn't happened, if instead the Dragonsworn had gotten control of that area, then Rand might have been in a far stronger position by now.
As a result of her machinations, Shara was thrown into civil war, for the first time since the Breaking. If, instead, that country had pledged to the Dragon, things might be looking rather different now too.
And, when posing as Nakomi ... :D

Toss the dice
08-27-2011, 11:49 AM
She kept the entire west of the continent in a state of continual chaos. If that hadn't happened, if instead the Dragonsworn had gotten control of that area, then Rand might have been in a far stronger position by now.
As a result of her machinations, Shara was thrown into civil war, for the first time since the Breaking. If, instead, that country had pledged to the Dragon, things might be looking rather different now too.
And, when posing as Nakomi ... :D

That's true. I agree that her influences of the West and Shara were big blows to the Light, although I think both situations could have swung either way had her influences not existed. The Sharans could have done anything from stay in Shara (like they did) to basically migrating a vast army to Randland to help. A stable West could have done anything from remaining stable and solid for Rand to attacking the Seanchan and getting slaughtered. It's very hard to guess what probably would have happened in either case.

I don't subscribe to that particular theory concerning Nakomi though.

Weiramon
08-28-2011, 02:39 AM
It seems to me that Graendal so far has actually helped the Light more than the Shadow, through her own bumbling.

//

Overall, I would say Graendal has been a considerable boon to the Light, as she hasn't really accomplished anything to hurt it, and has hurt the Shadow quite severely.

Aye, even the best and most loyal of intentions can lead to less than perfect results.

Rand al'Fain
08-28-2011, 03:07 AM
Aye, even the best and most loyal of intentions can lead to less than perfect results.

Like leading a headlong cavalry charge into entrenched Seanchan infantry that has Damane without second thoughts?

Enigma
08-28-2011, 06:32 AM
Graendal seems to have been the sort that had a few projects of her own,(keeping the west in chaos) but for the most part spent a lot of her time keeping an eye on what the other forsaken were doing and piggybacking on their schemes. First the hooks up with Lanfear Rahvin & Sammael then she moves on to Sammael that that did not work out so well. Finally she hooks up with one of the two recycled forsaken.

What that tells me is that she is for the most part good at manipulating people but she does not seem nearly as good at planning events. If she is with a group she has a fair chance of turning them to her advantage but on her own she sucks at long term plotting and planning. The plan with Rodel Ituralde and Perrin are just a few examples.

Davian93
08-28-2011, 08:10 AM
-it is not confirmed for us 100%, but Shaidar Haran blamed her for the death of Asmodean, apparently she was at least involved


Yes it is confirmed...in the glossary of ToM. Graendal killed him personally.


And I agree with what others said. She was probably the most successful forsaken thanks to her completely destabilizing Almoth Plain and Arad Doman along with Shara. She basically completely and utterly destroyed Arad Doman. It took Jesus Rand to even bring a tiny bit of order to the country. She also massively wounded the Seanchan thanks to her messages to Ituralde. How many hundreds of thousands of soldiers did she get killed as a result of that? All soldiers that could have fought for Rand at Tarmon Gaidin.

Enigma, how was her plot with Ituralde unsuccessful? It destabilized Arad Doman, got entire armies of Seanchan destroyed and even would have gotten Ituralde killed (along with tens of thousands of more Seanchan in a brutal battle) if not for Jesus Rand rescuing him at the last second.

Zombie Sammael
08-28-2011, 10:28 AM
This is nothing more than an idle thought, with little evidence one way or the other, but does anyone else think Graendal's sudden switch from ascetic to hedonist might have come about because she was turned to the Shadow forcible, with a circle of 13 channelling through Myrddraal? We have little evidence of the behaviour of turned people, but we do know that all the good parts of their personality are repressed:

They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

It also appears that the 13x13 turning trick was known before the Trolloc Wars:

It is a thing not done, so far as I know—Light send it has not been done!—since the Trolloc Wars. (emphasis mine)

All in all, Graendal's personality shift - and the fact that the dating for discovery of the trick would appear to be during the War of the Power - makes me think there is a reasonable chance she might have actually been turned.

Ishara
08-28-2011, 11:53 AM
Mmmmmm....

Except for the fact that her 180 change happened gradually, over about 10 years. It wasn't overnight. How do we explain that?

Also, for the little that it's worth the BWB does clearly state that the change in her lifestyle/ personality wasn't linked to her turning to the Shadow...

Zombie Sammael
08-28-2011, 01:12 PM
Mmmmmm....

Except for the fact that her 180 change happened gradually, over about 10 years. It wasn't overnight. How do we explain that?

Also, for the little that it's worth the BWB does clearly state that the change in her lifestyle/ personality wasn't linked to her turning to the Shadow...

The BWB is, obviously, of questionable accuracy, let alone canonicity, but where do you get the idea that it's a "fact" that he change happened over about ten years? No doubt it's "The Wheel of Time series of novels", but I don't recall seeing it so if you have a quote or a specific reference that would help.

Terez
08-28-2011, 01:16 PM
Yes it is confirmed...in the glossary of ToM. Graendal killed him personally.
The glossary wasn't clear enough for some, so we badgered Brandon about it until he confirmed she did it personally.

Enigma
08-28-2011, 01:17 PM
Enigma, how was her plot with Ituralde unsuccessful? It destabilized Arad Doman, got entire armies of Seanchan destroyed and even would have gotten Ituralde killed (along with tens of thousands of more Seanchan in a brutal battle) if not for Jesus Rand rescuing him at the last second.

The plan to keep the various factions divided and at each other's throats was great but she took her eye off the ball. Using her forged orders Ituralde was able to unite a large portion of Arad Doman's military strenght to hold back the Seanchan who at the time were more of less under the control of Suroth (a darkfriend) and Semirhage. It was just by good fortune for her that Tuon took care of Suroth and Rand dealt with Semirhage. At the time the General was doing his thing he was effectivly keeping a Shadow proxy from his nation.

Then he turns around and because Graendal has completly cut him loose, and is scooped up by Rand and help hold off a massive invasion from the blight inflicting some considerable casualties on the Shadow army. If Ituralde had not been there the Shadowspawn would have free range of Saladea and be heading south as fast as they could run.

Put it another way I think Granedal is great at spreading chaos and controling small groups but when it comes to large groups that she is trying to direct as opposed to scatter etc, thats where she runs into problems because as Mat said no plan survives contact with the enemy. She set plots in motion but was then distracted and not around to keep them on course.

Toss the dice
08-28-2011, 02:08 PM
Yes it is confirmed...in the glossary of ToM. Graendal killed him personally.


And I agree with what others said. She was probably the most successful forsaken thanks to her completely destabilizing Almoth Plain and Arad Doman along with Shara. She basically completely and utterly destroyed Arad Doman. It took Jesus Rand to even bring a tiny bit of order to the country. She also massively wounded the Seanchan thanks to her messages to Ituralde. How many hundreds of thousands of soldiers did she get killed as a result of that? All soldiers that could have fought for Rand at Tarmon Gaidin.

I realize Graendal threw the West into complete chaos, which has tended to have a much more lasting effect than other Forsaken who have taken control of various regions. However, she has also had very big failures as well. Being responsible for three Forsaken deaths is pretty bad, although I suppose killing Asmodean was a good move for the Shadow so he doesn't count.

Because of this, I disagree that she was the most successful Forsaken. Ishamael/Moridin easily wins by default, even due alone to what he did during the times he was temporarily freed from the Prison. I would even say Lanfear tops Graendal due to causing the death of Moiraine, which severely hurt Rand mentally. Mesaana is another that I would put above Graendal, for all that she did in the White Tower. Semirhage is yet another and could even be argued as being more successful than Moridin. Quite aside from taking Rand's hand and her work with the Seanchan - she forced Rand to almost kill Min. That set the stage for "Darkest" Rand, leading to his scene on Dragonmount. Rand could have gone either way, with one direction being the world's doom and the other side his current transformation.

No, I wouldn't say Graendal was the most successful Forsaken. She had great successes, horrible failures, and to me is best known for her longevity due to essentially hiding for most of the series. And as soon as she drew the attention of Rand, things went downhill incredibly quickly for her. Since then, she has had nothing but failures and hasn't even come close to being a danger to Rand. I also agree with Enigma. Graendal did very well with the West, but dropped the ball after she initially got it rolling. Must have been too busy with her servants I guess.

Enigma
08-29-2011, 07:56 AM
Dont laught but technically Moggy has been one of the most sucessful forsaken at personal survival. She had encountered the wondergirls and lived to tell the tale. Then she brushed up against Rand after her went after Rahvin and survived that battle. Finally she showed up at the cleansing and survived. As far as what she has acheived its not a lot but more forsaken seem to die as soon as they draw the attention of either Rand or the three ladies.

Moridin/Ishamael has, at least in my opinion, been the most sucessful forsaken at setting up the world for a Shadow victory. He destroyed the Ten Nations, ensured Hawkwing's empire would not survive the kings death. He twisted things around with the proto Seanchan empire. Not to mention he founded the Black Ajah. More recently he has had his hands full making sure that the forsaken's various plots don't mess with the DO's overall intentions and near the finish line has most of the forces of the Shadow all pointed in the same direction instead of 13 different factions.

Going back to Grendal I would say that she was one of the more dangerous of the forsaken to be around because one could find oneself being used very easily. She is cautious but not afraid to take risks. SH even seemed to respect her to a degree when he first met her.

Unfortunatly a person can be good at messing things up, that does not mean that they can shape an evil empire. Yet given that the DO seems to feed on chaos, perhaps that's why she was initially favoured, she was providing dessert.

confused at birth
08-29-2011, 01:24 PM
yes but when i read about the evil version of Doutzen Kroes im never sure if she wants to the most sucessful or if she is just waiting for the rest to die and is just going through the motions until she can find a way to get rid of the rest

Ishara
08-29-2011, 09:35 PM
The BWB is, obviously, of questionable accuracy, let alone canonicity, but where do you get the idea that it's a "fact" that he change happened over about ten years? No doubt it's "The Wheel of Time series of novels", but I don't recall seeing it so if you have a quote or a specific reference that would help.

The BWB - which we acknowledge is less than canon and more than conjecture.

Enigma
08-30-2011, 05:26 AM
The BWB is written as if authoried by an Aes Sedai with fragmented records so there can be some parts of it spot on, some nearly right and some completly false.

Leaving that aside I seem to recall that Graendal's suggen personality change was commented on by one of the forksaken when remembering the AoL. I think it was one of their meetings. I don't have the books right in front of me but it could have been one of the times Sammael met her and played her.

Juan
08-30-2011, 01:10 PM
Graendal seems like she'd be amazing in bed. Really.

On a more serious note, I thought Graendal using the dove to spy on Rand before he balescreamed her tidy little fortress was pretty cool. I don't recall that ability even being mentioned in the series before. It seems like a pretty useful ability when it comes to spying. I expect people like Moghy and Mesana and Graendal would be the Forsaken who could put that to use most effectively.

That does lead me to wonder if there's a way to detect someone doing that. Rand had no clue when she did it to him.

Enigma
08-30-2011, 04:45 PM
From the brief exposure we had in that scene it appears that this is an ability that can only be gained by using the True Power, or at least no one has figured out how to use the One Power to see/hear/contrl a bird. One of the big bonus points about using the True Power is that no one except the Dark One can feel what you are doing.

Oneirist
08-30-2011, 09:09 PM
This is nothing more than an idle thought, with little evidence one way or the other, but does anyone else think Graendal's sudden switch from ascetic to hedonist might have come about because she was turned to the Shadow forcible, with a circle of 13 channelling through Myrddraal? We have little evidence of the behaviour of turned people, but we do know that all the good parts of their personality are repressed:



It also appears that the 13x13 turning trick was known before the Trolloc Wars:

(emphasis mine)

All in all, Graendal's personality shift - and the fact that the dating for discovery of the trick would appear to be during the War of the Power - makes me think there is a reasonable chance she might have actually been turned.

Graendal was one of the first to swear to the Shadow long before the actual War of Power.


Mmmmmm....

Except for the fact that her 180 change happened gradually, over about 10 years. It wasn't overnight. How do we explain that?

Also, for the little that it's worth the BWB does clearly state that the change in her lifestyle/ personality wasn't linked to her turning to the Shadow...

During the Collapse, certain negative characteristics were supposed to have been expanded upon because of the Dark One's influence. Kamarile Maradim Nindar was always supposed to have been something of a narcissistic perfectionist -- perhaps that, in conjunction with the overall degradation of society, gave her a good nudge to the Dark Side?


The plan to keep the various factions divided and at each other's throats was great but she took her eye off the ball. Using her forged orders Ituralde was able to unite a large portion of Arad Doman's military strenght to hold back the Seanchan who at the time were more of less under the control of Suroth (a darkfriend) and Semirhage. It was just by good fortune for her that Tuon took care of Suroth and Rand dealt with Semirhage. At the time the General was doing his thing he was effectivly keeping a Shadow proxy from his nation.

Then he turns around and because Graendal has completly cut him loose, and is scooped up by Rand and help hold off a massive invasion from the blight inflicting some considerable casualties on the Shadow army. If Ituralde had not been there the Shadowspawn would have free range of Saladea and be heading south as fast as they could run.

Put it another way I think Granedal is great at spreading chaos and controling small groups but when it comes to large groups that she is trying to direct as opposed to scatter etc, thats where she runs into problems because as Mat said no plan survives contact with the enemy. She set plots in motion but was then distracted and not around to keep them on course.

Shadow proxy or not, the Seanchan would've restored order to Arad Doman, the same as they did with Tarabon. Arad Doman was in tatters because of Graendal, with nearly everyone a starving refugee. Ituralde was operating inadvertantly under her orders, and although she didn't anticipate his success, so long as the Seanchan didn't establish order in her territory she seemed to be content. Chaos was her goal.


The BWB is written as if authoried by an Aes Sedai with fragmented records so there can be some parts of it spot on, some nearly right and some completly false.

Leaving that aside I seem to recall that Graendal's suggen personality change was commented on by one of the forksaken when remembering the AoL. I think it was one of their meetings. I don't have the books right in front of me but it could have been one of the times Sammael met her and played her.

It was Sammael in LoC. He mentions how it seemed "as if she had deliberately become the opposite of everything she had been before."


On a more serious note, I thought Graendal using the dove to spy on Rand before he balescreamed her tidy little fortress was pretty cool. I don't recall that ability even being mentioned in the series before. It seems like a pretty useful ability when it comes to spying. I expect people like Moghy and Mesana and Graendal would be the Forsaken who could put that to use most effectively.

That does lead me to wonder if there's a way to detect someone doing that. Rand had no clue when she did it to him.

I wonder if it could be used on another human?

Enigma
08-31-2011, 05:56 AM
That's a good point about the Seanchan bringing order even if they did have darkfriends holding the reins of power. Perhaps that was part of the good she did by accident.

I wonder if it could be used on another human?

I doubt it. Humans are a lot more complex that simple birds plus it would be so useful that if it could have been done surely it would have been done before now.

Then again what about the messanger Sammael sent to Rand with the offer of truce?

Toss the dice
08-31-2011, 07:15 AM
Then again what about the messanger Sammael sent to Rand with the offer of truce?

That's possible but I would guess it's a completely separate weave. Where Sammael received a proverbial "alarm" or notice when the messenger was given his answer, along with another when he died. Or something similar.

Oneirist
08-31-2011, 03:21 PM
Then again, it's apparently been possible to do that trick with a rat or raven this whole time and we've only just heard about it. Maybe that's how the Grey Men are controlled?

the_collective
08-31-2011, 04:35 PM
I wonder if it could be used on another human?

I wish I had the quote, but at the end of TEotW, after Fain is caught snooping around in Fal Dara and Moiraine has her first tete-a-tete with him in the dungeons, she comes back up to join the group and relay what she has learned.

In her account of what Fain said, when Fain was driven to the Waygate in Caemlyn to continue following the group, he says something like he watched his hands move of their own accord in order to activate the Waygate. He mentions a complete inability to control his own body and he's watching himself do things he doesn't know how to do, plus it was very very painful for him to try to resist.

Anyway, it seems to me like this is an example of a human being used in the same way (by Ishamael, in my opinion) that the bird was being used by Graendal in TGS.

Juan
08-31-2011, 04:38 PM
The more intelligent the animal, the harder it is to control. If Graendal had such a hard time with a dove, I doubt shed be able to with a mammal, much less a human, the most complex and intelligent of animals.

the_collective
08-31-2011, 04:48 PM
The more intelligent the animal, the harder it is to control. If Graendal had such a hard time with a dove, I doubt shed be able to with a mammal, much less a human, the most complex and intelligent of animals.

Well, assuming there's any credence to the notion that creatures such as "ravens" or "rats" are somehow "tied" to the Dark One in some way, we can probably assume that a dove is NOT a creature easily controlled by the Dark One or his associates, while someone that has been to Shayol Ghul to make certain promises to the Dark One's face (such as Fain) might have a metaphysical conduit standing ready for advantage to be taken of it.

GonzoTheGreat
09-01-2011, 03:43 AM
Quote:
"If Fain was half mad by the time he reached Caemlyn, he sank even further when he realized that only two of those he sought were there. He was compelled to find all of you, but he could do no other than follow the two who were there, either. He spoke of screaming when the Waygate opened in Caemlyn. The knowledge of how to do it was in his mind; he does not know how it came there; his hands moved of their own accord, burning with the fires of Ba'alzamon when he tried to stop them. The owner of the shop, who came to investigate the noise, Fain murdered. Not because he had to, but out of envy that the man could walk freely out of the cellar while his feet carried him inexorably into the Ways."

maacaroni
09-01-2011, 07:50 AM
I think her relative success is a matter of opinion. On the grand scale, she 'let the lord of chaos' rule more than most. But she also directly and indirectly caused the death of three other chosen...now one could argue that this was Shai'tan's ultimate aim - selfishness - to it's ultimate conclusion, but you can't help thinking that by removing three players from the game it reduced the Dark One's options.

I think she failed most in her direct attacks to the Wunderkids.

What I always found hardest was any mythological allusions from her name. Graendel is based on the Grendel from Beowulf...but that's about it.

As for her reasons for turning to the shadow, she basically abandoned every aspect of her old life, for asceticism read hedonism, for mental health read compulsion. She saw the battle as hopeless so joined the winning team in heart and in soul.

the_collective
09-01-2011, 05:39 PM
Thank you Gonzo for providing that quote. It does illustrate my point as intended. :)

WinespringBrother
09-01-2011, 08:11 PM
Well, assuming there's any credence to the notion that creatures such as "ravens" or "rats" are somehow "tied" to the Dark One in some way, we can probably assume that a dove is NOT a creature easily controlled by the Dark One or his associates, while someone that has been to Shayol Ghul to make certain promises to the Dark One's face (such as Fain) might have a metaphysical conduit standing ready for advantage to be taken of it.

There is also the possibility that Fain had post-hypnotic suggestions standing by, just as Bors did:

Crown of Swords CHAPTER: 15 - Insects
Suddenly he felt as though a knotted rope had been fastened around his head and was being drawn ever tighter. For an instant a race hidden behind a red mask filled his vision. Night-dark eyes stared at him, and then were endless caverns of flame, and still staring. Within his head, the world exploded in fire, cascading images that battered him and swept him beyond screaming. The forms of three young men stood unsupported in air, and one of them began to glow, the form of the man in the street, brighter and brighter till it must have seared any living eyes to ash, brighter still, burning. A curled golden horn sped toward him, its cry pulling his soul, then flashed into a ring of golden light, swallowing him, chilling him until the last fragment of him that recalled his name was sure his bones must splinter. A ruby-tipped dagger hurdled straight at him, curved blade striking him between the eyes and sinking in, in, until gold-wrapped hilt and all was gone, and he knew agony that washed away all thought that what had gone before was pain. He would have prayed to a Creator he had long abandoned if he remembered how. He would have shrieked if he remembered how, if he remembered that humans shrieked, that he was human. On and on, more and more....