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DrZoidberg
08-28-2011, 01:39 AM
You have probably thought of this idea before. But I'll write it anyway.

The beggining of the next book will be a meeting of several protagonists at the field of Merrilor.
What will happen there?

We have several clues.

In TOM Rand thinks that he will make a demand to the others there, as a trade for his own sacrifice.
The demand he will make is that every ruler agree to become a vassal of Seanchan. In exhange the Seanchan would let their channelers free and not use the collar. And they will become Aes Sedais.

But the kings and queens are not likely to agree to this. And the empress wouldnt likely do it either as she probably will have a demand that Rand and all other channelers should bow to her as well.

--------------------------------------

All forsaken have a speciality, something they do extra well with the onepower. The only one we haven't understood what he was extra good at is Lews Therin. We know he cannot heal for example. There must be something he can do extra good with the One Power, because he got to be the leader of the Aes Sedai back then.

The only thing I can think off that Rand has done with ease, that no one else in the serie has done is becoming invisible. He did that at the end of book seven. Maybe that is Lews Therins speciality.
We haven't seen many do illusions either, which use to be common in fantasy.

-----------------------------------------

So I belive that the first that will happen at Merrilor is that Rand will gather Min, Elayne, Avienda and Alanna and ask them to remove the bond. If they don't agree he will do it himself.

After that Rand will speak to Alivia, the seachan woman that Min thinks will kill him. Off course Alivia adores Rand and would never harm him, unless Rand commands her to balefire him during the meeting, when he says a certain word. It's a big sacrifice for her, as she will likely be killed afterwards.

Then they will meet all of them and Rand will speak. I do not belive it's time to destroy the seals yet. There is at least two things that needs to be done before that. Instead Rand will make Perrin a leader of the forces and he will tell his plans to send Mat to Seanchan with a letter that if they release all damane and ban all collars and let them become Aes Sedai, then all kingdom's will be Seanchans. They won't agree to it, of course.

After that Alivia will balefire Rand. But it will not be Rand, but only an illusion of him that Rand has made.

But all of them will belive he is dead and will not refuse Rand's last wish, now that they think everything is over anyway. Seanchan will also accept it, as when the empress no longer has The Dragon as a rival, it's probably the best deal she can get.

Making everyone belive he is dead, gives Rand an advantage to do something he couldnt do before.
And that is to travel to the Black Tower and figure out who is darkfriends or not their.
When he was alive, no one dare would dare to admit they were darkfriends. But maybe Mazrim Taim and all his followers are darkfriend and will proclaim it now. Rand can go there incognito and find it out.

Sorry for the large amount of text, but I think this is one way to do the ending. Feel free to find prophecies that refute it :)

Terez
08-28-2011, 01:52 AM
I think Merrilor is a big, fat red herring, mostly because Caemlyn is being attacked and there's no way they're just going to hang out at Merrilor while that's happening...and no way the Seanchan are just going to show up and say, 'okay, what do we have to do?' They're going to attack. Made a post about it at Dragonmount (http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/62721-merrilor-a-big-fat-red-herring/) recently...though I think I have posted as much here before. I've definitely posted recently about my ideas on the Seanchan truce (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5820). Basically the same deal you had in mind, though I don't think Rand will demand any such thing. More likely the negotiations will happen while he is dead. And he's definitely not going to get away with faking his death. Four separate prophecies say he will die, so it would be extremely lame if he cheated. And Alivia's definitely not going to kill him (fake or otherwise). She's going to help him die - big difference.

Rand al'Fain
08-28-2011, 04:24 AM
I think Merrilor is a big, fat red herring, mostly because Caemlyn is being attacked and there's no way they're just going to hang out at Merrilor while that's happening...and no way the Seanchan are just going to show up and say, 'okay, what do we have to do?' They're going to attack. Made a post about it at Dragonmount (http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/62721-merrilor-a-big-fat-red-herring/) recently...though I think I have posted as much here before. I've definitely posted recently about my ideas on the Seanchan truce (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5820). Basically the same deal you had in mind, though I don't think Rand will demand any such thing. More likely the negotiations will happen while he is dead. And he's definitely not going to get away with faking his death. Four separate prophecies say he will die, so it would be extremely lame if he cheated. And Alivia's definitely not going to kill him (fake or otherwise). She's going to help him die - big difference.

Just to say, those at Merrilor have no clue what is going on in Caemlyn, but I do believe they will find out somehow and that negotiations will be put on hold until it is saved (even if Tuon spontaneously appears, as she is prone to do, as even she is aware of the Trollocs).
Plus, "help him die" means being an accessory to killing him, at least, if not outright killing him with someone else.

Anyways, on topic;
1. Elayne and other leaders not under Seanchan rule will say "HELL NO!" to becoming vassals to the Seanchan. But I can see a treaty of some sort coming having to do with no more aggressive expansion and slavery.

2. LT is not a Forsaken.;) But was said to be the most powerful in the One Power, and pretty much the best at whaever he did.

3. I think bonds can only be shifted to another person, but unless one or the other dies, there is no way to get rid of a bond.
Personally, not a fan of balefiring Rand, as it could have huge ramifications other than "making the day dawn twice :confused: ."
I think Mat may be more of a link to all forces, as Tuon knows she can trust him, and many of those allied or under Rand's control know of his abilities. Plus Elayne and Eggy would approve him over anyone else.
And with the Dreamspike, no one can travel in or out of the Black Tower. Plus, Logain was already sent to check it out.

Enigma
08-28-2011, 07:15 AM
Its hard to say what is going throught Rand's mind after his transormation as BS was carefuly to let us have no useful pov from Rand in the last book. Saying that why would Rand demand that all the nations effectivly surrender to the Seanchan?

He's met Tuon. Not under the best circumstances but he's learned enought about the Seanchan to know how they operate. The Seanchan will accept kings/queens who swear the oaths as regional administratorys but they will want all the female channelers collared and all the male channelers killed. Then Tuon will want to rund the Last Battle as she things that as Empress its her job.

Would Rand trust a woman he barely knows with the fate of the world?

My take was that Rand wanted the armies of the light gathered (at least those not directly under his command) and instead of spending time he did not have to arrange this, he manipulated Egwene to do the job for him. I think that he probably plans something along the lines of telling the nobles that he will go to SG for them but in turn they will all pledge to follow his orders for the duration of the last battle. Otherwise they can go meet the DO themselves.

Landfear messing with his dreams and the attack on Caemlyn could well chance what ever he has planned. Not to mention Mat is likely to show up with Moiraine who may have some valuable intel. Lastly Aviendha may well return on a mission to change what she saw as the future of the Aiel. When you add all those things into the mix things may not play out exactly the way Rand or Egwene planned. In fact I can see the meeting start when all hell breaks loose and people have to react to multiple crises.

Terez
08-28-2011, 01:04 PM
Just to say, those at Merrilor have no clue what is going on in Caemlyn
Really?? We would never have known that if you hadn't told us!

Rand al'Fain
08-28-2011, 02:20 PM
Really?? We would never have known that if you hadn't told us!
And yet you think those at Merrilor will magically know what is going on in Caemlyn during a surprise attack that even those just outside the city walls didn't know about until after it began. Maybe there are some Kinswomen there that are strong enough to travel to Merrilor, but you'd think that they would be needed to try and fight off the trolloc attack, that is if they are not running around like chickens with their heads cut off or getting killed off.

Terez
08-28-2011, 02:22 PM
And yet you think those at Merrilor will magically know what is going on in Caemlyn during a surprise attack that even those just outside the city walls didn't know about until after it began.
Do I really? Perhaps you can point out to me where I believe that. Or perhaps you're just trolling?

Ieyasu
08-28-2011, 03:37 PM
Do I really? Perhaps you can point out to me where I believe that. Or perhaps you're just trolling?

Perhaps you should just answer the fucking question instead of trolling him with sarcasm. Exactly how DO you think they will magically find out about the attack?

Terez
08-28-2011, 03:45 PM
Perhaps you should just answer the fucking question instead of trolling him with sarcasm.
Perhaps you should go back to whatever hole you were hiding in and stay the fuck out of things you don't understand.

Exactly how DO you think they will magically find out about the attack?
If you really care, then read the threads I linked above.

Rand al'Fain
08-28-2011, 03:47 PM
Do I really? Perhaps you can point out to me where I believe that. Or perhaps you're just trolling?
If you so insist.

I think Merrilor is a big, fat red herring, mostly because Caemlyn is being attacked and there's no way they're just going to hang out at Merrilor while that's happening

If that's not outright saying it, it's heavily implying it.

But I'm really not in the mood to get into a "discussion" with someone that doesn't take anyone disagreeing with them well, to say the least.

Terez
08-28-2011, 03:53 PM
If you so insist.

If that's not outright saying it, it's heavily implying it.
It's not. There are several reasons to believe that they will learn about Caemlyn soon, which are detailed in the thread I linked (which was part of what you were responding to).

But I'm really not in the mood to get into a "discussion" with someone that doesn't take anyone disagreeing with them well, to say the least.
And yet, you just can't resist trying every now and then, can you? And it's always trolling - you never say anything worth reading.

Rand al'Fain
08-28-2011, 04:00 PM
It's called a side note. Or in other words, not the key point to my post. Meaning that you were not the point of my post. Get over it already.

The Unreasoner
08-28-2011, 04:12 PM
...but I do believe they will find out somehow

If only Terez had read the line she quoted a little further, we could have avoided this whole argument.

@Rand al'Fain
I've always found your posts worth reading, and it turns out you're a troll? I feel so...dirty.

@Zoidberg
It's a nice theory, but it seems like it would take a while to come to fruition. To be thought dead, word would have to travel, and from reliable sources over reliable networks. And why would the leaders agree to the Dragon's terms just because they think the world is going to end?

Rand al'Fain
08-28-2011, 04:18 PM
@Rand al'Fain
I've always found your posts worth reading, and it turns out you're a troll? I feel so...dirty.
Yes, I am the troll that your mother warned you about as a child! Fear me and my troll powers!

Terez
08-28-2011, 04:27 PM
It's called a side note. Or in other words, not the key point to my post. Meaning that you were not the point of my post.
And yet, you felt the need to say that in response to my post.

Get over it already.
I will get over it when you stop being a troll. I'm about ready to leave Theoryland to you guys; you've turned it into a trash heap. If that's the way it's going to be, then I have no interest in this forum any more. I'd rather post at Dragonmount (and often do).

DrZoidberg
08-28-2011, 04:53 PM
Rand al'Fain wrote:

"3. I think bonds can only be shifted to another person, but unless one or the other dies, there is no way to get rid of a bond. "

Yeah, that is a problem as I do not belive Rand's wifes can keep a secret even if he told them to lie and say they thought he was dead. Alanna cannot lie about it either. But maybe they can do it for a short period of time.
So either find another person who is willing to accept the bond, or there is a way, it's just not known by the Aes Sedai yet.

------------------------------------
About the attack on Caemlyn... Yeah, it's very possible that they get to know of the attack, likely at least those from Caemlyn will leave the meeting and return home.

I think that Tar Valon is also being attacked at the same time, but it is not shown on screen yet. The Empress of Seanchan gave orders to attack Tar Valon, using traveling that Eliada thought them.
Because Rand is Ta'veren he went to the White Tower and told the Aes Sedai that he would destroy the seals and that they should meet him at a certain date at the field Merrilor. Ironically (because he is ta'veren) that was the same day that Tar Valon got attacked by Seanchan.
We don't know how many Aes Sedai followed to Merrilor, my guess is that most of them did, but not all.
Which means that it was clever of Rand to tell the Aes Sedai that he would destroy the seals, if he had just said that he wanted to meet them at Merrilor to discuss Tarmon Gaidon. Than only a few of them would have come. And those that stayed in Tar Valon are either dead/captured by Seanchan now.

How will that influence the meeting I don't know. The Wheel turns as the Wheel wants to after all.

--------------------------------------------------

About the deal with the Seanchan. There are some more hints in the book that there will not be a fullscale war of magic between Randland and Seanchan.
But yeah, it seems unlikely now that either side wants a peace right now. Only a major event can change that, like they all beliving that the Dragon is dead.

One is in the end of book 12 when Rand travels alone to Eubo Dar and wants to destroy the palace where the Empress lives. But he is not allowed by the pattern to do that, even if he wants to.

---------------------------------------------

Terez wrote:
"And he's definitely not going to get away with faking his death. Four separate prophecies say he will die, so it would be extremely lame if he cheated."

The only reason as I see it why he wouldn't get away with faking his death is that he is bonded to four women.
I don't think it would be lame for him to fake his death, I think that would be cool. But I have read other theories of Rand dying and then being brought back to life via the dreamworld like Birgitte. I think that would be lame.

But of course Rand might die at the end of the book. So the prophecies were correct all along, they just weren't interpreted right. When he fakes his death.

Rand al'Fain
08-28-2011, 05:30 PM
I tried to post something, it showed up for a second, I go to edit it slightly, and it gets deleted. What gives?

The Unreasoner
08-28-2011, 05:36 PM
I tried to post something, it showed up for a second, I go to edit it slightly, and it gets deleted. What gives?

It's obvious: you must have been trolling.

Rand al'Fain
08-28-2011, 05:49 PM
It's obvious: you must have been trolling.

Must have been. I gues I missed the new "troll definition" where saying how not to let someone's posts/comments/whatever get you is now part of the definition. Ah well, shit happens.

DrZoidberg
08-28-2011, 06:12 PM
Please take the discussion about trolling to the Non WOT Forum section. After all there is no trolls in Randland, only Trollocs!
Thanks in advance.

Rand al'Fain
08-28-2011, 06:15 PM
Please take the discussion about trolling to the Non WOT Forum section. After all there is no trolls in Randland, only Trollocs!
Thanks in advance.
Yeah, sorry about that. My bad.

Lupusdeusest
08-29-2011, 01:15 AM
Although the above makes me wonder what the effect of a multiple bonding would be - and how Min would pass her bond along. For Min, would it be like the hankie trick (or to put it better, the ignoring-cold trick)? And would multiple bondings of the same person cancel each other out or make a super-bond?

(And, pet question I recall being discussed here some time ago - man-on-man bonding.)

Terez
08-31-2011, 10:17 PM
Shillster (http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/k0fp8/iama_professional_fantasy_novelist_named_brandon/c2gk9uc): Why does Verin make Mat promise to obey her letter if he opened it in ToM? In my mind of course if he would have obeyed the letter if he read it. All that Verin had to do was say "Mat, read this in a few days it's super important" then since he didn't have any reason not to read the letter he would read it and prevent the horrible battle with the trollocs. What was Verin's reasoning?

Brandon: A couple of things here.

The primary one is that Verin had to work around her oaths, which required her to go through some strange mental gymnastics. She actually tried out different ways of getting this information across, and could never make it work. (In her pouch was actually a letter that said something similar to Mat, but which read "Ignore what I say and open this immediately.) She couldn't pick it up at the moment, however. The oaths were binding. She would either have had to take poison right then, or bet on Mat being too impatient to wait.

Second thing is this, and it's a slight spoiler for the next book. [She did build in redundancy.]

Shillster (http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/k0fp8/iama_professional_fantasy_novelist_named_brandon/c2gkfo8): My question isn't regarding the loophole that she found, the question is as to why make Mat promise to obey the letter. She could have made him promise not to open the letter for 3 days and still maintained her loophole. It's the promise to obey the letter that makes Mat not read it and now they are in a whole lot of trouble because of it.

Brandon: Let's just say that Verin...didn't understand Mat as well as she thought that she did.
The comment about redundancy seems relevant.

Marie Curie 7
08-31-2011, 11:49 PM
So I belive that the first that will happen at Merrilor is that Rand will gather Min, Elayne, Avienda and Alanna and ask them to remove the bond. If they don't agree he will do it himself.


3. I think bonds can only be shifted to another person, but unless one or the other dies, there is no way to get rid of a bond.

Nope, sorry. Not only can a Warder bond be transferred (like Moiraine did with Lan), but the bond also can be removed:

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

Week 13 Question: Is the White Tower currently aware of any way to completely dissolve/undo the bond between an Aes Sedai and her Warder so that the link no longer exists and all the positive and negative effects of the bond are removed?

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes, they are. It is called releasing a Warder, and an Aes Sedai who is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a little more time that laying on the bond. If they are physically apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, touch on him.

It has also been used to get rid of a Warder who proved to be unsuitable in some way, such as a man who is discovered to be a thief or who takes reckless chances, a fighter of duels who won't stop without the bond being used to force him. No sister is going to want a Warder who will risk getting himself killed, with all the attendant results to her, for no very good reason.

Although use of the bond in that way (controlling) was not unknown in the past, it came to be regarded as a form of Compulsion to use it so except in the slightest forms. Besides, using the bond to control a Warder all the time is a lot of work. An Aes Sedai wants somebody who can watch her back and keep it safe, not somebody she has to work on all the time. (Which is one of the reasons Aes Sedai stopped bonding men against their will. Not ethical concerns or ethical growth, I'm afraid; it was just not very practical really) Better simply to release the fellow who can't measure up and find another who will.

By the by, releasing a Warder except for cause (the Aes Sedai's imminent death, his own unsuitability) or because he has asked for release is something that JUST IS NOT DONE! It would gain the sister considerable opprobrium from other sisters. A sister certainly would be looked at askance if she released a Warder who was dying, for example, just to avoid the effects on her of his death. When an Aes Sedai bonds a Warder, she is expected to buy in for the full ride. For that matter, releasing him for unsuitability is considered to reflect on the sister's judgment. She should have known better about him from the start.

DrZoidberg
09-02-2011, 06:11 AM
I hadn't read that quote either. But what Robert writes makes sense.
A clever Aes Sedai would then dismantle the bond if there was a high risk of his warder dying. To not lose prestige among the other Aes Sedai, you could always keep it a secret and act sick for a while.

Elayne might actually agree on dismantling the bond. As she wouldn't want Rand to go to Shaoyl Ghul (at least before her children is born) with him still bonded.

greatwolf
09-02-2011, 08:07 AM
Nope, sorry. Not only can a Warder bond be transferred (like Moiraine did with Lan), but the bond also can be removed:

I don't see Avi agreeing to let Rand go simply because he's about to die in battle. She might do it for the babes, but is there any evidence that the bond affects the babes in any way? Because its been there all their lives (;)) and removing it might bactually be worse than leaving it.

David Selig
09-02-2011, 11:52 AM
Instead Rand will make Perrin a leader of the forces and he will tell his plans to send Mat to Seanchan with a letter that if they release all damane and ban all collars and let them become Aes Sedai, then all kingdom's will be Seanchans. They won't agree to it, of course.

After that Alivia will balefire Rand. But it will not be Rand, but only an illusion of him that Rand has made.

But all of them will belive he is dead and will not refuse Rand's last wish, now that they think everything is over anyway.
I don't understand - why would Rand's death, if he got killed by a Seanchan woman, make everyone accept joining the Seanchan Empire? It doesn't make sense. So what if it was his last wish? The whole thing will only make everyone more hostile and distrustful of the Seanchan, especially his closest friends, who just happen to be the most powerful leaders at Merrilor.

GonzoTheGreat
09-02-2011, 12:21 PM
I don't understand - why would Rand's death, if he got killed by a Seanchan woman, make everyone accept joining the Seanchan Empire? It doesn't make sense. So what if it was his last wish? The whole thing will only make everyone more hostile and distrustful of the Seanchan, especially his closest friends, who just happen to be the most powerful leaders at Merrilor.That may be the beauty of it. You're apparently expecting Egwene to react logically. That is not a mistake Rand would make, though. :D

DrZoidberg
09-02-2011, 01:05 PM
I don't understand - why would Rand's death, if he got killed by a Seanchan woman, make everyone accept joining the Seanchan Empire? It doesn't make sense. So what if it was his last wish? The whole thing will only make everyone more hostile and distrustful of the Seanchan, especially his closest friends, who just happen to be the most powerful leaders at Merrilor.

It's a good point and one of the weaknesses with the theory. And it be that some other deal can be made with Seanchan.

Two major things that makes that neither side wants a peace right now. One is that Seanchan wants Rand to bow before the Iron Throne, because of the prophecy. The other is that their channelers are not free. If you get rid of these two it would be possible to take up negotitations.
But the Empress would likely want something major in return, for giving up her main way of controlling the Empire. The deterrence that any rebellion will fought with the use of the one power.

It's seems like there is no real will to fight the Seanchan. Especially among the Aes Sedai, but also among the other nations. Instead of everyone defends by themselves and get conquered by Seanchans, they should have met Seanchan when they first landed in Arad Doman and Tarabon.

If they think Rand is dead it makes sense to move on and think about those who lives and what is best for them. And that would probably be to not fight a war with Seanchan as many would die. Actually that makes the most sense.

@Terez Sorry, I didn't get what was relevant about redundancy in your post and what redundancy means. I'm not familiar with that word.

Tamyrlin
09-02-2011, 01:33 PM
@Terez Sorry, I didn't get what was relevant about redundancy in your post and what redundancy means. I'm not familiar with that word.

Second thing is this, and it's a slight spoiler for the next book. [She did build in redundancy.]


Brandon said that Verin built in secondary plans, backup plans, some redundancy in her plans. Although, he could have just meant for her plan as it pertained to Mat.

Zombie Sammael
09-02-2011, 01:53 PM
Tam, I think Zoidberg actually isn't familiar with the meaning of the word, or the context.

Zoidberg, in this case it means something that isn't necessary but might be used - like a backup. Hope that clears things up a bit (it does have other meanings).

DrZoidberg
09-02-2011, 01:57 PM
I see. Thanks.
That makes it more likely that those at Merrilor will know about Caemlyn, one way or another.

FelixPax
09-04-2011, 08:14 AM
Brandon said that Verin built in secondary plans, backup plans, some redundancy in her plans.

Who? How? For What?


How about Aes Sedai who were given Compulsion suggestions to pledge Fealty to Rand al'Thor? That's one mechanism for Verin's creation of redundancy plans: a Plan B. Why not use of the sister's sent by Elaida & Galina to Cairhien, in LoC book, again? Some of whom are far more truthworthy than others.


Say Nesune?


Take Verin's relationship with Nesune, Nesune's comments about a large snake (gara) in both Illian & Mayene swamps, Nesune's knowledge about the seals on the Dark One's tomb, Verin's use of Compulsion previously upon Nesune, Verin's push for Nesune to be loyal to Rand al'Thor, Nesune's awesome memory recall, Nesune's awareness of a Green sister (Egwene) in Cairhien with Rand, Min's Foretelling of Nesune founding a famous Library (Court of the Sun? Mat Cauthon connection?).

sleepinghour
09-04-2011, 08:43 AM
I see. Thanks.
That makes it more likely that those at Merrilor will know about Caemlyn, one way or another.

My guess is Galad since he was also seen with a letter in ToM. Rand would have been the best one to tell, but in that case he would have done something about the Waygate already.

David Selig
09-04-2011, 11:38 AM
The only way that could work is if Galad was given the letter and made to promise not to open for a certain period, otherwise he would've told Elayne about the invasion when he came to Caemlyn with Morgase.