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View Full Version : Food Spoilage, Belief and Order, etc.


JOS
08-19-2011, 11:28 AM
Food is spoiling across Randland, spontaneously and randomly, but there seems to be a loophole in the spoilage. Perrin had to sift through the So Harbor stores, and Mat mentions spoilage in Caemlyn at an inn, but both are mentioned dining and thoroughly enjoying meals in TGS and ToM at various times. When anyone else eats, there is always hesitation due to the spoilage.

Perrin does not seem to have any spoilage in his army's food stores.

Mat does not seem to have any spoilage in The Band's food stores.

Is there something to this? I may have missed mention of it, but are there are any accounts of their stores doing the random spoilage thing?

GonzoTheGreat
08-19-2011, 11:35 AM
The land is one with the Dragon, the Dragon is one with the land.
Apparently, it's a three headed dragon.

Enigma
08-19-2011, 11:36 AM
Added to that Perrin said that some people joined up to his army simply because he could feed them, strongly indicating that food he acquires does not spoil beyond what is normal.

Why? Perhaps its because that Mat & Perrin are like Rand the focus points of opposition to the power of the Dark One (the vision of all the fireflys comming off them and holding back the dark). Rand has enough juce now to make spoiled food get better. Perrin & Mat are not that powerful but the pattern is more resistant to the DO's touch near them and so he can corrupt things as easily around them.

Davian93
08-19-2011, 11:53 AM
The land is one with the Dragon, the Dragon is one with the land.
Apparently, it's a three headed dragon.

This is all a setup for the inevitable comic crossover into Westeros...


Seriously though, yeah, it goes back to the firefly vision that Min had in tEotW and the "Cut one leg of the tripod, and it all falls down" theory the Shadow seems to have. All 3 are important to the Light's victory...all 3 Ta'veren can prevent spoilage by their curative effect on the Pattern.

Rand's portion of it is emphasized even more strongly due to the unique nature of the Land/Dragon bond and his stronger ta'veren effect.

Heinz
08-29-2011, 06:08 PM
Food is spoiling across Randland, spontaneously and randomly, but there seems to be a loophole in the spoilage....
Is there something to this?

My initial thought when I noticed the same while reading was as others have replied, that it was related to the three ta'veren. Rand's seeming ability to reverse spoilage and make things grow seemed to reinforce this. But more and more, I believe Rand's recent abilities are Rand's alone.

The lack of food spoilage, or at least a lesser rapidity of it, seems more related to something Herid Fel, Rand's scholar, once said: "Belief in order give strength." IIRC, some others on these boards have voiced similar thoughts. People following Mat and Perrin to seem to have a belief in their leaders, for various reasons. Both characters had a process in coming to accept that as well, sometimes painfully so to some readers.

The main bit that convinced me that the lack of spoilage wasn't related to ta'veren though was that we haven't ever heard of issues in the lands the Seanchan have conquered. Instead, we hear about how strong a society, how orderly and relatively free of crime it is. After fleeing Arad Doman and leaving silent, starving people and their once vibrant and colorful lifestyle, Rand ends up in Ebou Dar where people are happy for stability and wondering if they can get their latest crop to market or buy a nice silk dress they've wanted. Not starving people.

I also noticed that under Elaida, Tar Valon really took a nose-dive. While it could be simply an omission in the detail since Egwene has taken over, I have wondered if the city cleanliness and food stores have recovered some? And what about Caemlyn? I know Elayne was having some troubles feeding the quantity of people there, but I didn't recall spoilage on the level of Arad Doman, or Almen Bunt's apple orchard (opening pages of TOM).

Terez
08-29-2011, 06:54 PM
The lack of food spoilage, or at least a lesser rapidity of it, seems more related to something Herid Fel, Rand's scholar, once said: "Belief in order give strength." IIRC, some others on these boards have voiced similar thoughts.
Indeed. Elayne notices an improvement after she rounds up the Darkfriends in KOD, and that was what clued us in (I think Callandor was the first to point that out after KOD came out).

confused at birth
08-29-2011, 06:59 PM
I also noticed that under Elaida, Tar Valon really took a nose-dive. While it could be simply an omission in the detail since Egwene has taken over,

may not have changed by the amount in the rebel camp when she was in charge things are pretty much the same in the tower as they were in the camp

Davian93
08-29-2011, 09:46 PM
Indeed. Elayne notices an improvement after she rounds up the Darkfriends in KOD, and that was what clued us in (I think Callandor was the first to point that out after KOD came out).

It could also be that she's carrying dragonspawn in her belly...

Order out of chaos is the biggest part of it though I think.

Terez
08-29-2011, 09:48 PM
It could also be that she's carrying dragonspawn in her belly...
That might make sense if it weren't for the fact that food is increasingly spoiling more around Rand, and it's not spoiling in places like Seanchan territory where it's hard to credit Rand.

Davian93
08-29-2011, 09:49 PM
Like I said, Order is clearly the biggest aspect of it but Jesus Rand is also have an affect all on his own just by being in the area...perhaps his spawn also do that.

JOS
08-30-2011, 11:20 AM
Belief and order make a lot more sense than just accrediting the non-spoilage to Ta'veren or Dragon powers.

There seems to be stages and levels of spoilage around Elayne, Egwene, and Rand's dominions, but the absense of spoilage in Mat and Perrin's camps is almost absolute. While they may still have DF's in their camps, Mat's ability to inspire confidence and loyalty is almost unmatched and Perrin does very well with order and belief despite his grumblings.

Perhaps the only comparable loyalty to that of the Ta'veren camps in the Seachan lands, which thrive despite some obvious infiltration by DF's.

The Two Rivers seem to be spared with regards to spoilage too ...

Thanks for all the answers/thoughts!

GonzoTheGreat
08-30-2011, 12:03 PM
The Whitecloaks did not seem to lack in order and belief either, but there was spoilage there nonetheless.

Heinz
08-30-2011, 12:31 PM
I think the Whitecloaks are less orderly than one might believe. Just look at their recent history from the top of the ranks down. They've gone through 3 Lord Captain Commanders, had a High Inquisitor act as Lord Captain Commander of a split force of Children while the 3rd Lord Captain Commander had his own group, had a ranking officer (Bornhald) pursue a personal vendetta which unwittingly aided Padan Fain's own agenda/vendetta, had their Fortress taken from them. Not to mention, people not in the Children also rarely looked up to them, just saw them as a militarily strong group that they must obey/endure.

I would not consider them a source of order and stability at this point.

And with Rand's new Dragon Powers, they seem separate from the lack of spoilage. The noted lack there is seen, as we've said, largely in Mat and Perrin's camps, and in Seanchan held territories. Caemlyn comes to mind as well. Rand, however, straight up reverses already rotted apple orchards to make them grow. It would seem a different 'power' to me, and more likely linked with the 'The Land is one with the Dragon, and he one with the Land' prophecy.

Tamyrlin
08-30-2011, 12:59 PM
I have a thought on this that may explain something Loial told Rand in TEoTW and it is working itself into a theory on the Song, Balance, Order, etc.

greatwolf
09-01-2011, 11:53 AM
Seriously though, yeah, it goes back to the firefly vision that Min had in tEotW and the "Cut one leg of the tripod, and it all falls down" theory the Shadow seems to have.


Gonzo was thinking of a three headed dragon while you might be talking of a three legged dragon. You might both be referring to the same beast though.:p

greatwolf
09-01-2011, 12:01 PM
The lack of food spoilage, or at least a lesser rapidity of it, seems more related to something Herid Fel, Rand's scholar, once said: "Belief in order give strength." IIRC, some others on these boards have voiced similar thoughts. People following Mat and Perrin to seem to have a belief in their leaders, for various reasons. Both characters had a process in coming to accept that as well, sometimes painfully so to some readers. .


A very good post. However, I'm not entirely sure that quote is accurate. I'll check when I get home. Secondly, with the seanchan, it may be more of lack of chaos than order or belief. They simply have been the focus of major chaos attacks.

Davian93
09-01-2011, 12:27 PM
A very good post. However, I'm not entirely sure that quote is accurate. I'll check when I get home. Secondly, with the seanchan, it may be more of lack of chaos than order or belief. They simply have been the focus of major chaos attacks.

Quick game:

Q. What is a lack of chaos?

A. Order

GonzoTheGreat
09-01-2011, 12:40 PM
A very good post. However, I'm not entirely sure that quote is accurate. I'll check when I get home. Secondly, with the seanchan, it may be more of lack of chaos than order or belief. They simply have been the focus of major chaos attacks.More accurate quote:
Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl. Too pretty.
FelWhich, of course, raises the question: is the world doomed because of pretty girls?

greatwolf
09-02-2011, 04:50 AM
More accurate quote:
Which, of course, raises the question: is the world doomed because of pretty girls?

You missed the adam and eve story? :)

Quick game:

Q. What is a lack of chaos?

A. Order

I'm actually referring to active efforts to spread chaos by the chosen and the DO. From what RJ said, human actions can strengthen (or influence?) the DO. So the use of BF for instance, can increase the DO's influence, but its use by the Dragon who is tied to the land could be very fulfiling for the DO.

So negative actions/lack of order from Rand would have a greater multiplier effect on the areas around Rand than in other areas. With the efforts of the shadow focused on nudging Rand more and more toward the dark side, it may not be any surprise that the areas around him will experience a lot more of the chaos effects than other areas especially the seanchan lands.

But the reverse is also likely true. The more Rand embraces order, the less the effects of chaos would be. The areas around Rand could soon be a haven of sorts and the range of his influence could expand very rapidly.

The difference between his territories and the seanchan teritories helped open his eyes. He might also remember the effects of Loial and Somestha's songs on the land around. LT should actually know all this, but then we're talking about Rand not LT aren't we? :)