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Juan
08-30-2011, 01:30 PM
We all know balefire's bad because it destabilizes the pattern. (Why is that exactly?).

Apart from this, it's not that bad, and in fact, it's kind of a good thing.

I used to think one of the main reasons balefire was bad was because it destroyed the soul. Soul was gone forever. We've learned this isn't the case; instead, it actually bypasses the DO so he doesn't have access to them.

So apart from the whole pattern gets destabilized, wouldn't it behoove the Light to balefire their dying so that they don't have the possibility of being snatched up by the DO? For example, Verin could face serious punishment for what she did since he is the Lord of the Grave and can seek retribution. But if she was balefired, he wouldn't be able to do this.

When thought of like that, balefire isn't so bad.

kielbasaj
08-30-2011, 01:35 PM
Balefire destabilizes the Pattern because of how it burns threads out of it. Burn enough threads and any weave will fall apart. This can be seen when Rand balefires Graendal's palace (can't remember the name of it). It causes so much disbalance and pressure on the Pattern it even emits a Balescream, affecting people in a very wide perimeter.

As for the rest of your post, yeah. I guess balefire is handy in small doses.

The Unreasoner
08-30-2011, 01:38 PM
Well, for the Verin case specifically, Jordan said that although the DO is capable of some nasty punishment, he generally wouldn't care.

Enigma
08-30-2011, 04:53 PM
... unless it serves as an example to his other servants.

I would have thought that helping dismantle one of the most potent tools in the Shadow arsenal is probably not the sort of example the DO wants his followers setting. Saying that given its literally a few days before D-Day the DO may have other things occupying his attention that punishing a renegade.

Heinz
08-30-2011, 05:27 PM
Does the DO know of Verin's betrayal of the Shadow at the time of her death, in time to capture/catch/whatever-it-is-he-does her soul? I've never been able to determine what exactly the DO can know, and how he can know it.

Omniscient? I don't think so.

Some kind of link to his Darkfriend/Black Ajah servants? The Chosen seem to be linked in some way, which would explain how he knew Aginor and Balthamel had died rather than the next thought. But are all Darkfriends linked/marked in some fashion, if not exactly the same as a Chosen mark? Black Ajah specially? Doubtful, I think, since Alviarin was struck by the sudden and great honor, and potential peril, of being marked by the Great Lord.

A network of eyes and ears, human and/or otherwise, which then have to report back to the DO or SH or something? This would fit why Chosen are going back to report to the DO. Sure, they aren't positive on what the DO knows and doesn't know and fear that lack of knowledge, but they never venture as to HOW he knows.

I find it doubtful then that the DO knows, at the time of Verin's death, what Verin had been doing for her final hour. He knows she died, but nothing else.

But then.. does the DO know which souls are going at which time? I would assume so, but again, I can't think of any specifics talked about in the books. I could see him picking out a Chosen's soul, based on his link with them. And I could see him picking out Rand, as the Dragon, or any ta'veren. What about plain, ordinary Verin? That is where I'm uncertain, based on lack of knowledge.

Oneirist
08-30-2011, 09:27 PM
In Verin's case, I don't see punishment serving any real purpose other than revenge. She's not one of the Forsaken, so there's no point in intimidating or torturing her since she's not going to be transmigrated. And she won't serve as an example if others can't see her being punished.

Darkfriends might not be marked in the same way as Alviarin (which is just supposed to protect her from certain Shadowspawn), but there's apparently something there since Fain can sense them, and those Darkfriends in ToM either couldn't meet Rand's eyes or went crazy because of his presence.

Juan
08-31-2011, 10:17 AM
Channelers are marked in a special way that non channelers are not.

And Verin was pretty high up from what I could gather from Sheriam's comment. Being able to betray the DO sets a dangerous precedent for him. I'd imagine it would be in his best interest to close the loophole and to punish traitors.

greatwolf
08-31-2011, 11:08 AM
Channelers are marked in a special way that non channelers are not.

And Verin was pretty high up from what I could gather from Sheriam's comment. Being able to betray the DO sets a dangerous precedent for him. I'd imagine it would be in his best interest to close the loophole and to punish traitors.


Not the first, there's asmodean, moghedien and Lanfear before this. Maybe even Amico and Joiya and who knows who else? It may be better for the DO to be silent about Verin sidestepping the oath or even better, close the loophole. But how will he know?

Juan
08-31-2011, 11:13 AM
For people that swear their actual soul to the DO, like greymen. I imagine you could save them by balefiring them. Unless the soul is the same every single time, meaning, next time they're born, they'll simply swear their soul to the DO again. If not, though, you could save some souls that way.

GonzoTheGreat
08-31-2011, 11:42 AM
Maybe the DO doesn't worry about cases like Verin. Sure, they will be troubling to his underlings. But then, they're underlings, so he doesn't have to keep them all that happy, does he?

From the DO's point of view, all that matters at this stage is Rand. And for that, Verin was no more than a sideshow. You could even argue that by letting Elza get into Rand's circle of "sort of trusted AS" Verin did the Shadow a big service.

the_collective
08-31-2011, 12:01 PM
For people that swear their actual soul to the DO, like greymen.

This made me think of a topic brought up in another thread recently and a possible link between the two subjects...

We know from Lanfear that only Myrddraal and Grey Men are "denied dreams" (except you, for as long as you share the DO's prison of course); is it possible that having dreams in this world is directly tied to ownership of a soul (or at least harmony between your physical brain and your metaphysical soul, in the case of the sealed-off Chosen)?