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Aulis Vaara
09-04-2011, 07:07 AM
Because Terez closed the Twice Dawns The Day Theory thread for no apparent reason, and I still wanted to reply to two things.

I agree that the DO didn't want him dead then because he still wanted Rand to turn to the Shadow. My point is that if the DO could take Rand by just killing him sans balefire then what's the point of waiting?

If Rand is dead, the Dark One can get his soul but nothing more. That means that Rand will get a shiny new body with at the very least no Ta'veren influence. He'll go from Fisher King to very powerful soldier, probably not a good first plan. At least not as long as you still have other plans in play to convert him.

I also don't think if there is a merge that it will be certain that Moridin wins. All we've read and seen about Moridin/Rand is that their rather evenly matched, perhaps Rand's soul survives the merge instead of Moridin's.

Or both their souls are destroyed... If they're almost evenly matched, they might just cancel each other out. That's very bad news for the light and very good news for the Dark One. Maybe not in this age, but the next time, there won't be a Dragon Soul to stop him.

The Unreasoner
09-04-2011, 10:34 AM
If Rand is dead, the Dark One can get his soul but nothing more. That means that Rand will get a shiny new body with at the very least no Ta'veren influence. He'll go from Fisher King to very powerful soldier, probably not a good first plan. At least not as long as you still have other plans in play to convert him.
Is this a theory, or fact?
It sounds plausible, but if the ultimate goal is complete annihilation (and if annihilation is possible with a 'recycled' Dragon), does it matter? And I wonder how much 'less' the recycled Dragon would be. No ta'veren? No Fisher King?
Or both their souls are destroyed... If they're almost evenly matched, they might just cancel each other out. That's very bad news for the light and very good news for the Dark One. Maybe not in this age, but the next time, there won't be a Dragon Soul to stop him.
A very common argument for the merge is Min's viewing of the two men becoming one. And one dies (but one lives). So cancelling each other out or co-existing as 'Dark Rand' is unlikely.

Aulis Vaara
09-04-2011, 11:00 AM
Is this a theory, or fact?
It sounds plausible, but if the ultimate goal is complete annihilation (and if annihilation is possible with a 'recycled' Dragon), does it matter? And I wonder how much 'less' the recycled Dragon would be. No ta'veren? No Fisher King?

Not a fact, sadly, but he hasn't made one yet, and I'd think having one would be useful. Plus, since Ta'veren are 'for a time', it almost can't be a soul thing.

A very common argument for the merge is Min's viewing of the two men becoming one. And one dies (but one lives). So cancelling each other out or co-existing as 'Dark Rand' is unlikely.

Point taken. I've been reading to many stories with mutual annihilation in them, I think.

Just to play the devil's advocate, though, there could be mutual annihilation, but due to someone balefiring Rand, he can be revived, but Moridin stays dead due to being out of reach of the Dark One. Not that I believe that will happen, just wanted to be annoying.

The Unreasoner
09-04-2011, 11:18 AM
just wanted to be annoying.

I know the feeling, lol. Hell, I've been fiddling with a theory that treats Fain as the mergebuddy.

finnssss
09-04-2011, 12:33 PM
I know the feeling, lol. Hell, I've been fiddling with a theory that treats Fain as the mergebuddy.


Naw, Perrin kills Fain, no doubt in my mind on that one.

As far as Terez's theory, the big flaw I see is that there is no inclusion of Alivia in Rand's death.
She mentions her from a previous theory and then...nothing.
Incorporating her would definitely strengthen her theory imo.


Anywho, back to Fain and some other crazy ramblings I have been mulling over...

Ok, granted that what follows is based on the assumption that Perrin will indeed be the one to kill Fain.
Also, I am still working some things out so lets call this a preliminary outline ;)

Rand breaks the remaining Seals, darkness ensues for a bit, then light returns. (Twice dawns the day).
Moiriane, recently arrived, tells Rand that defeating the DO lies with Fain and SL evil.
They attempt to lure Fain out.
When Bornhald learns they are after Fain, he comes clean with Perrin over the true deaths of his family.
Fain attacks Rand, Perrin intervenes. His hammer not only kills Fain's shadowspawn pawns but is also able to "burn" Mashadar and keeps it at bay.
Perrin's enhanced senses see right through Fain's illusions and he kills Fain.
Rand takes possession of the Dagger.

Rand once again "meets" with Moridin and appeals to the same logic that made Ishy turn to the Shadow in the first place. Rand tells him that he has a way of effectively killing the DO, or at least making it so that the DO would be replaced/negated with an evil that is not capable of being "bored" into again (the evil of SL).

Moridin, who joined the shadow in the first place because he saw no other way to end his never ending cycle and his insanity, agrees to help.

Alivia, with Moridin's instruction, affects a body swap between Rand and Moridin. (No, I'm still not sold on the body swap theory either but it's what I'm going with for now :p )
Rand, as Moridin, now hooks up with Shadar Haran and, with the SL tainted Dagger, infects the DO through Shadar Haran.
The backlash almost kills Rand but he lives long enough for Moridin to switch back and die in peace.


Kinda out there eh?
Thoughts?

Tamyrlin
09-04-2011, 12:37 PM
Because Terez closed the Twice Dawns The Day Theory thread for no apparent reason, and I still wanted to reply to two things.

Elder and above users on Theoryland are allowed to close threads they create anytime they choose. It's been this way at TL for as long as I can remember. In fact, I'm reviewing current user group abilities, because it seems to me that new users are missing a few things they should be able to do too.

Zombie Sammael
09-04-2011, 12:44 PM
Elder and above users on Theoryland are allowed to close threads they create anytime they choose. It's been this way at TL for as long as I can remember. In fact, I'm reviewing current user group abilities, because it seems to me that new users are missing a few things they should be able to do too.

How about just promoting some of us? :D

Davian93
09-04-2011, 05:43 PM
How about just promoting some of us? :D

~smacks zombie~

Quiet Noob!

Terez
09-04-2011, 08:43 PM
Elder and above users on Theoryland are allowed to close threads they create anytime they choose.
Except when the boss is posting in said thread. (Don't worry - it's rare. ;) )

jeck
09-07-2011, 04:33 AM
Balefire people:
why does the viewings implies that Rand has a dead body when he dies?

How will they be able to revive him if he gets balefired(no dead body)?

GonzoTheGreat
09-07-2011, 04:41 AM
Balefire people:
why does the viewings implies that Rand has a dead body when he dies?

How will they be able to revive him if he gets balefired(no dead body)?As for the latter: they (Nynaeve, specifically) will rip him out of TAR, just as happened with Birgitte.
As for the former: a peculiarly interesting question. I await an answer to this from the ones that support the balefire theory.

jeck
09-07-2011, 08:48 AM
As for the latter: they (Nynaeve, specifically) will rip him out of TAR, just as happened with Birgitte.
As for the former: a peculiarly interesting question. I await an answer to this from the ones that support the balefire theory.

If he gets bailfired are we just guessing he will spunn out asap to T'A'R have this even happend before? I guess the answer to my question will be that the pattern will force him out directly,

If he is reachable for the D.O when he is just killed normally why wasnt Lews Therin soul taken by the D.O when he died? Could it have something with the sealing was stronger at that moment and the D.O couldnt do it? but atm he can?

Isnt there a possibility that Rand dies after the D.O is resealed? (ofc he will die, but I mean the first time)

If now Rand will be revived as Terez said, why does it seem in Aviendahs viewing of the future that Rand dies during Tarmon'gaidon or shortly after(imo) how do you think he will die his final death?

The Unreasoner
09-07-2011, 09:54 PM
As for the latter: they (Nynaeve, specifically) will rip him out of TAR, just as happened with Birgitte.
As for the former: a peculiarly interesting question. I await an answer to this from the ones that support the balefire theory.

Lol, maybe Rand dies three times.
While there is nothing obviously wrong with the balefire theory, I am finding it increasingly unsatisfying. Possibly because it works best when combined with theories I am opposed to. Like Dark Rand.

NargsBrood
09-09-2011, 02:35 AM
Hi Terez.

Now, continuing on:

This "Two Dawn Theory" appears to be advocating the Figurative scenario rather than the Literal.

If baelfire is used to overwrite the first dawn then the first dawn never happened. It no longer "literally" happen. The memories people have of said dawn are false memories that are only hanging around as a side effect of baelfire. No more literal double dawn. Bye Bye.

Hi Terez.

There are a lot more simpler Figurative Theories out there and often the simplest ends up being correct. Simple beats Convoluted 99999 times out of 100000.


Hi Terez:

1 - I think at one point I read that you believe the world would be set back to an earlier phase of its rotation but instead of replaying the rotation the planet would stop because Rand will have died?
This would destroy the face of the planet. Run a google search for "What would happen if the earth stopped rotating?" Hi Terez.

2 - You say that the only baelfire needed to throw the entire earth and all it's contents back far enough to cause a second dawn would be enough to fry Rand. And that his Connection to the Land will take care of the rest. Er herm. You are defining attributes of the "Connection to the Land" mechanism that have no basis in anything in the books in regards to "it will take care of the rest". Will it "take care of the rest?" This is wild speculation at best.

If it cannot "take care of the rest" and we have no reason to beleive that it will, then enough baelfire is needed to send the entire world and all of its contents back far enough in time to warrant the idea of a second dawn. I dont think any circle moiraine could form with any combination of sa'angreals would be strong enough to reverse the world and its contents back even microseconds. There is too much.

3 - If there was some way to use enough baelfire to send Rand's thread back several hours (though there isnt) then it would destroy the pattern. If it was some other Joe's thread then that's fine since not many other threads are woven to his. However, Rand's thread has millions of other threads knotted to it. Removing his thread would throw everything out of whack. What would all these threads do if they no longer have his dominating thread? The pattern would fail.

Blurg Blurg Blurg Blurg

NOTE:
I suppose my post crossed the line! Thanks for editing it for me, Tam! If anyone is interested in viewing the original message, here it is! (http://tinyurl.com/pq24rx) It is pretty nasty though so I wouldnt advise reading it!

NOTE: No worries Narg, I understand you are screwing around.

NOTE: Vigilant Tam. I can put it in my sig that way it will be more cumbersome for you (an extra few seconds) to modify haha. jk

The Unreasoner
09-09-2011, 02:53 PM
Last edited by Tamyrlin; Today at 10:04 AM. Reason: Add video link.

And the link is:
RickRoll'D (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0&feature=fvst).

What?!?

Edited to add:
Oh wait, never mind.

(Sorry Unreasoner - I didn't edit anything, but accidentally clicked Save - Tam).

Terez
09-09-2011, 03:15 PM
Hi Terez.

Now, continuing on:

This "Two Dawn Theory" appears to be advocating the Figurative scenario rather than the Literal.

If baelfire is used to overwrite the first dawn then the first dawn never happened. It no longer "literally" happen. The memories people have of said dawn are false memories that are only hanging around as a side effect of baelfire. No more literal double dawn.
It's as literal as you're going to get. The distinction you're making is not one that is important to me. The distinction between a day actually dawning twice and, say, and eclipse...that is an important distinction. Technically, Mat didn't die and live again, did he? Because technically, he never died. Yet RJ is on record several times saying that the Aelfinn prophecy was fulfilled in Caemlyn.

There are a lot more simpler Figurative Theories out there and often the simplest ends up being correct. Simple beats Convoluted 99999 times out of 100000.
Simple/convoluted is a very subjective distinction (which became clear in the real vs. construct debates). IMO this one is pretty simple.

I think at one point I read that you believe the world would be set back to an earlier phase of its rotation but instead of replaying the rotation the planet would stop because Rand will have died?
This would destroy the face of the planet. Run a google search for "What would happen if the earth stopped rotating?"
Run a search in my interview database for 'nova'. It should be in the Workings of the Wheel category.

You say that the only baelfire needed to throw the entire earth and all it's contents back far enough to cause a second dawn would be enough to fry Rand. And that his Connection to the Land will take care of the rest. Er herm. You are defining attributes of the "Connection to the Land" mechanism that have no basis in anything in the books in regards to "it will take care of the rest". Will it "take care of the rest?" This is wild speculation at best.
I'm looking for a literal explanation for the prophecy, actually. Since no one has defined the properties of 'one with the land', then it's a pretty open field for speculation, and there is nothing in what Brandon has said about it (or what he's pointed out from the early books about it) to contradict it. Furthermore, Brandon's insistence that 'one with the land' will play a major role seems to encourage the idea. Of course, there are many other things he could be referring to. But we don't know, do we? This one is a possibility, and it's the only possible literal interpretation of the prophecy. (Again, you can harp on the semantics of it if you like, but I just don't care about that distinction. Not all distinctions are equal.)

If it cannot "take care of the rest" and we have no reason to beleive that it will, then enough baelfire is needed to send the entire world and all of its contents back far enough in time to warrant the idea of a second dawn.
I see this confusion a lot. You're confused because your notions of time are bound up with the earth's rotation. But the earth's rotation is not time itself. It's just a regular feature of our environment that happens to give us a relatively stable and consistent clock that we can use to measure the passage of time. All the earth has to do is revert to its pre-dawn position. Presumably everyone on the planet will remember what happened in the interim - that's how it works - and presumably their movements, always relative to surface landmarks, will be unchanged. It doesn't take too much power (i.e. RJ's comments on balefiring the Dark One) because Rand, being one with it, makes a convenient target, and the mysterious nature of the connection makes a convenient landscape against which we can make suppositions about certain paradoxes inherent in the mechanics of balefire.

If there was some way to use enough baelfire to send Rand's thread back several hours (though there isnt)
Oh, but there is. Rand sent Rahvin back at least half an hour with just the fat man.

then it would destroy the pattern.
It theoretically might, but there's nothing to say that it necessarily will. Also, what if Rand's actions in the meantime furthered the destruction of the Pattern?

However, Rand's thread has millions of other threads knotted to it. Removing his thread would throw everything out of whack.
I have a feeling that it's necessary regardless of the theoretical consequences. It's also probably a part of why Mat and Perrin are needed.

NargsBrood
09-09-2011, 05:50 PM
Hi Terez.

Now, continuing on:

It's as literal as you're going to get. The distinction you're making is not one that is important to me.
As literal as you're going to get is not not true. There are a few weird literal theories out there and those are actually "Literal". And it IS important to you. You stated that this is the only plausible LITERAL theory out there and that all the others are garbage.

The distinction between a day actually dawning twice and, say, and eclipse...that is an important distinction.
Agreed. If the eclipsed happend, it would be a literal happening. If the Twice Dawn theory you've outlined happens then it is a figurative happening since the first dawn didnt actually happen.

Technically, Mat didn't die and live again, did he? Because technically, he never died. Yet RJ is on record several times saying that the Aelfinn prophecy was fulfilled in Caemlyn.
Some believe the hanging fits this prophecy. It doesnt matter. If you're trying to start a discussion of whether Mat's death was literal or figurative then start a new thread :P You cannot use it as a comparison for this prophecy.

Simple/convoluted is a very subjective distinction (which became clear in the real vs. construct debates). IMO this one is pretty simple.
Of course Simple/convoluted is subjective. Your interprutation to the "Twice Dawns the Day..." is subjective. Hi Terez.

Run a search in my interview database for 'nova'. It should be in the Workings of the Wheel category.
If it is relavant to the discussion then paraphrase it here or at least provide a link if its too long.

I'm looking for a literal explanation for the prophecy, actually. Since no one has defined the properties of 'one with the land', then it's a pretty open field for speculation, and there is nothing in what Brandon has said about it (or what he's pointed out from the early books about it) to contradict it. Furthermore, Brandon's insistence that 'one with the land' will play a major role seems to encourage the idea. Of course, there are many other things he could be referring to. But we don't know, do we? This one is a possibility, and it's the only possible literal interpretation of the prophecy. (Again, you can harp on the semantics of it if you like, but I just don't care about that distinction. Not all distinctions are equal.)
You are defining the attributes to suit your theory. Again, highly subjective and biased. You can not declare yourself the foremost expert since you have not seen any other theory definitions of the mechanics of said device.

I see this confusion a lot. You're confused because your notions of time are bound up with the earth's rotation. But the earth's rotation is not time itself. It's just a regular feature of our environment that happens to give us a relatively stable and consistent clock that we can use to measure the passage of time. All the earth has to do is revert to its pre-dawn position. Presumably everyone on the planet will remember what happened in the interim - that's how it works - and presumably their movements, always relative to surface landmarks, will be unchanged. It doesn't take too much power (i.e. RJ's comments on balefiring the Dark One) because Rand, being one with it, makes a convenient target, and the mysterious nature of the connection makes a convenient landscape against which we can make suppositions about certain paradoxes inherent in the mechanics of balefire.
Au contraire - you are confused. All actions are anchored to time including the rotation of a planet. Maybe you're not as familiar with the affects of baelfire as you believe? Baelfire burns the thread back to a certain point whether minutes or hours. Everyone and Everything that interacted with that thread during the section that was burned has to backup and replay the scenario without the original thread. They dont ACTUALLY go back to replay it. It happens instantaneously. There are no Deja Vus. Its more of an -->"I remember what really happened but I can remember something else happened but didnt happen. Weird!"<-- type of thing. One of the major side effects is the residual false memories that stick around.

always relative to surface landmarks
The surface of the planet couldnt possibly be the the anchor to one's position. The time anchor is much more believable though subjective you'll claim, no doubt.

It doesn't take too much power (i.e. RJ's comments on balefiring the Dark One) because Rand, being one with it, makes a convenient target, and the mysterious nature of the connection makes a convenient landscape against which we can make suppositions about certain paradoxes inherent in the mechanics of balefire....
....
Oh, but there is. Rand sent Rahvin back at least half an hour with just the fat man.

Its obvious it doesnt take much power to burn someone's thread back a few hours! It doesnt take much power to revert one person's thread or even a handful or a crowd. But when you are talking billions of threads all around the world which is what would be required to revert the rotation of the earth then you're gonna need one hell of a lot of power.

It theoretically might.
It theoretically would.

Also, what if Rand's actions in the meantime furthered the destruction of the Pattern?
Then Rand's actions further the destruction of the Pattern. His actions dont destroy it unless that was RJ's goal for linear time.

Hi Terez.

It's also probably a part of why Mat and Perrin are needed.
I dont follow. It doesnt seem plausible Mat and Perrin's threads could compensate for the lack of Rand's.

the_collective
09-09-2011, 05:58 PM
Wow, Narg. I have an overwhelming urge to duck and cover.

Hey, Dav - is there room on that ESC couch of yours? :D

Terez
09-09-2011, 06:03 PM
And it IS important to you. You stated that this is the only plausible LITERAL theory out there and that all the others are garbage.
Nope, sorry. It's not important to me. I understand that you can't comprehend it, though. That has never been your strong suit. Trolling is more your thing, isn't it?

Tamyrlin
09-09-2011, 06:48 PM
I'd rather not continue editing posts.

NargsBrood
09-09-2011, 06:52 PM
That's all you have to say.
That's acceptable.

Nope, sorry. It's not important to me. Subjective but okay.

I understand that you can't comprehend it, though. That has never been your strong suit.Come on now. You're going to stoop to my level and resort to personal attacks? I thought you were above that!

I figure I raised some valid arguments against your theory yet you dont address them. Your choice. Acceptable.

Trolling is more your thing, isn't it? I am merely conveying my strong feelings against your theory. Its subjective feeling that you consider it trolling. I have baited you but I wouldnt consider it trolling. If it is, whatev

Tamyrlin
09-09-2011, 07:15 PM
This "Two Dawn Theory" appears to be advocating the Figurative scenario rather than the Literal.

If baelfire is used to overwrite the first dawn then the first dawn never happened. It no longer "literally" happen. The memories people have of said dawn are false memories that are only hanging around as a side effect of baelfire. No more literal double dawn. Bye Bye.


Strangely, Unreasoner made this same reply a day before you did on this same point. Anyway, attempting to make an issue out of the use of "literal" in this theory seems like playing semantics to score some imaginary notch in the belt. With the use of balefire, what happened before did happen and then it was overwritten, according to the view point of the writer and the reader, at the very least. And the rest is your interpretation of how balefire works to rework literal into figurative, which doesn't really work the way you want it to...although to you it does. Odd thing to argue Nargs.

FelixPax
09-09-2011, 07:21 PM
It's as literal as you're going to get. The distinction you're making is not one that is important to me. The distinction between a day actually dawning twice and, say, and eclipse...that is an important distinction. Technically, Mat didn't die and live again, did he? Because technically, he never died. Yet RJ is on record several times saying that the Aelfinn prophecy was fulfilled in Caemlyn.

Why did Matrim Cauthon's flesh need to die? Why did Robert Jordan confirm Matrim Cauthon's flesh did die, to lightning in Caemlyn? Why indeed.


Ultimately why? One possibility is by dying in Caemlyn, Matrim Cauthon possibly cut the cord placed upon himself by Ishamael. A cord put into place, back in TEotW book, in a dream. Matrim Cauthon told Rand al'Thor, that Ishamael now claimed to know who he was.


Suddenly he realized Mat was twisting and moaning in his sleep. He shook him, and Mat came awake with a whimper.

“My eyes! Oh, Light, my eyes! He took my eyes!”

The Eye of the World, Chapter 33 "The Dark Waits" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Mat speaking

It's a notice worthy scene. Particularly when one notes many servants of the Shadow possess no eyes, at all. Matrim Cauthon has been marked.


Whereas both Perrin and Rand al'Thor can each be found by Ishamael/Moridin in their dreams. Each has been marked. Matrim is free from Ishamael/Moridin's touch in his dreams, because he once died. Additionally the Foxhead Necklace provides continued protection from any new cords or marks being placed upon Matrim Cauthon in his dreams.


In terms of distinctions, I believe Terez claims are both correct and incorrect. It's subtle.



Matrim Cauthon's soul did not die. Everywhere.
Matrim Cauthon's Flesh & Dreams in this Mirror World called Earth did die.
Matrim Cauthon's soul was seemingly re-born on Earth by the Pattern in the person of Olver. A young Mat. Question is when was Olver's Flesh & Dream created?
Matrim Cathon's soul was brought back to existence by Rand al'Thor thoughts of eliminating Rahvin in a World of Dream.


In nutshell, in depends on how the World of Dream function. Earth is just one Dream, as so the Shadow wants character's to believe.



The special case of Olver's existence, has previous parallels in the special case of Rhea's existence and marriage to Caar One-Handed in Aramaelle (roughly current day Kandor, Arafel). Who was Rhea's soul again? Mierin, aka Lanfear and Selene's soul.

Souls can be spun out in multiple Worlds, and exist in multiple Worlds. Ishamael is a liar.




I'm looking for a literal explanation for the prophecy, actually.

What is dawn?
Light shining; the Sun rising up to the sky.

Who's the essence of the Sun?
Plowman: Rand al'Thor
Dragon; Snake:Valan Luca


His coming shall be like the sharp edge of the plow, turning our lives in furrows from out of the places where we live in silence.

—from Commentaries on the Prophecies of the Dragon,
by Jurith Dorine,
Right Hand to the Queen of Almoren,
742 AB, the Third Age

Rand al'Thor character in some ways is akin to John the Baptist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Baptist), for Valan Luca's character being Christ-like figure of the Wheel of Time. In the sense of a forerunner. Of course, Robert Jordan used ample amounts of other mythologies as we both know of, too. An alternative mythological character parallel for Valan Luca is Ganesha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha). Valan Luca's Circus is an embodiment of the very symbols of Ganesha's. In terms of Wheel of Time symbols, Rand is the Plow to Valan Luca's Mule.


Who's to call the Light to rise twice?
Rand al'Thor once.
Valan Luca once.

Will the Sun rise naturally on Sunday?
I doubt it. Why?
Planet wide dense cloud cover, which allows no natural light to breach it.


What's a purpose of the Dragon?


The breaker of bonds; the forger of chains. The maker of futures; the unshaper of destiny.

—from Commentaries on the Prophecies of the Dragon,
by Jurith Dorine,
Right Hand to the Queen of Almoren,
742 AB, the Third Age


Translation: The Dragon is an extremely strong male Dreamer. A Destroyer; a Creator. A Union maker.


Furthermore, Brandon's insistence that 'one with the land' will play a major role seems to encourage the idea.

True.


Speculations:


Valan Luca has lost a hand already.
Valan Luca has lost his wife, Latelle Luca. Murdered.
Murandy is a very nasty place now. Even the outlying Farmers are weary of outsiders, according to Rand's point of view just outside of Far Madding (ToM book).
The Land aches because of Valan Luca's heartache and pain.




I have a feeling that it's necessary regardless of the theoretical consequences. It's also probably a part of why Mat and Perrin are needed.

Valan Luca has connections to both Matrim Cauthon and Perrin. For Mat it's obvious, for Perrin's it's more subtle. Think a Tuatha'an with a Sword, of Aram, and what Perrin's now believes he should had done.

Aram is a bloody counterpoint of Valan Luca's character. Aram like Valan Luca has ties to Ila, Raen's Tuatha'an band.

The minor Old House of Matherin is needed too. Got to track down and catch that wild chicken, err Gara. :D ;)

NargsBrood
09-09-2011, 07:46 PM
I will keep all personal attacks out with the OCCASIONAL "Hi Terez!" instead of spamming it at the beginning of my posts. *Sighs and walks away hanging is head*

The Unreasoner
09-09-2011, 08:05 PM
Strangely, Unreasoner made this same reply a day before you did on this same point.
Indeed I did. In fact, the timing of Narg's post and the video link 'proof' made me think he was mocking me.

But I wasn't attempting to troll (even with the line giving a shout out to finnssss, but I suppose that the q-word has a certain connotation. I'll use "semi" next time. And like Terez said, figurative/literal is partially subjective). While "knee-deep" in the balefire thread, this thought came to me. So I legitimately raised what I saw as a legitimate point, which I think was legitimately addressed with:
RJ is on record several times saying that the Aelfinn prophecy was fulfilled in Caemlyn.
So unless Kin Tovere/Archimedes gets a place to stand, this theory is functionally as literal as we can hope for.
(Sorry Unreasoner - I didn't edit anything, but accidentally clicked Save - Tam).
Lol. So my thoughts are my own. But I wonder if all these random "Hi ______" are due to your Compulsion? I've seen you turn my laughter into tears before. Someone once theorized that balefiring you could erase everyone's Compulsions, but the theory sang its swan song after RJ commented on it:
Q: Why doesn't somebody just balefire the Lord of the Board? It worked for Ramshalan.
RJ: The quantity necessary would destroy Theoryland.
In any case, arguing with Terez...been there, done that. Future disputes to be held off until after Terez and I eat some cow together. So...
Hey, Dav - is there room on that ESC couch of yours? :D
Scoot over.

Terez
09-09-2011, 08:13 PM
No fireworks. I didn't even read past the last line of his I quoted, since that line made it clear there was no point.

Tamyrlin
09-09-2011, 08:15 PM
Q: Why doesn't somebody just balefire the Lord of the Board? It worked for Ramshalan.
RJ: The quantity necessary would destroy Theoryland.

That you should be rep'd for...I can do that right? (Goes to look for the rep button...)


Lol. So my thoughts are my own. But I wonder if all these random "Hi ______" are due to your Compulsion? I've seen you turn my laughter into tears before. Someone once theorized that balefiring you could erase everyone's Compulsions, but the theory sang its swan song after RJ commented on it:


Compulsion through the use of the One Edit Power. That's a good way to look at it. :)

NargsBrood
09-09-2011, 08:20 PM
Strangely, Unreasoner made this same reply a day before you did on this same point. Missed it. I guess he and I agree.

Anyway, attempting to make an issue out of the use of "literal" in this theory seems like playing semantics to score some imaginary notch in the belt.I actually have real belt with notches but to some degree, yeah. Remember the head banging on the brick wall comment? This mostly stems from that general feeling.


With the use of balefire, what happened before did happen and then it was overwritten, according to the view point of the writer and the reader, at the very least. Agree that it did happen. I brought up the term "overwrite" so let me define my intent with its usage by citing an example: "The file no longer exists. It was overwritten by another file." If you want to get technical I will but I believe you understand my intent? So for all intents and purposes, the first dawn hadn't happened after it was overwritten.

And the rest is your interpretation of how balefire works to rework literal into figurative, which doesn't really work the way you want it to...I have no proof that it does... or does not. Unless you know of some for the contrary?

Odd thing to argue Nargs.Dont think so. Her theory is prefaced with the idea that this is the definitive "Literal" theory and all the other Figurative theories are just imitating. If this is a figurative theory then we can compare apples to apples. But to say that this "literal" theory sits in a camp by itself with no serious competition is unfair. It does have other figurative theories to compete with. In this case, semantics are important.

Tamyrlin
09-09-2011, 08:29 PM
Agree that it did happen. I brought up the term "overwrite" so let me define my intent with its usage by citing an example: "The file no longer exists. It was overwritten by another file." If you want to get technical I will but I believe you understand my intent? So for all intents and purposes, the first dawn hadn't happened after it was overwritten.


It happened and then what happened is overwritten imperfectly. Those imperfections make it possible for a literal interpretation. If somehow balefire erased all existence of the event from the Pattern, all memories of both those inside and outside the books, I could buy your figurative argument, but it doesn't.


Dont think so. Her theory is prefaced with the idea that this is the definitive "Literal" theory and all the other Figurative theories are just imitating. If this is a figurative theory then we can compare apples to apples. But to say that this "literal" theory sits in a camp by itself with no serious competition is unfair. It does have other figurative theories to compete with. In this case, semantics are important.

Um...

Many have tried to interpret the prophecy literally using balefire as an explanation, but the problem has always been: What exactly do you balefire to make the earth's rotation revert to pre-dawn? I think I have finally come up with an explanation that will work.

She in fact says that many try to use Balefire, but she never found the idea plausible until adding the component of the connection between the Dragon and the Land. Where is the "in a camp by itself" coming from?

NargsBrood
09-09-2011, 08:34 PM
So unless Kin Tovere/Archimedes gets a place to stand, this theory is functionally as literal as we can hope for.

Disagree. It doesn't matter when or where the prophecy was fulfilled. Whether in Rhuidean or in Caemlyn..

You can have the same argument about Mats prophecy being literally fulfilled or figuratively. The prophecy was fulfilled but was he literally killed or figuratively? Until I accept it as fact that his was a literal fulfillment, I cannot accept it as definitive proof that the baelfire scenario in this dawn theory is literal. Does this line of thinking seem illogical?

Terez
09-09-2011, 08:43 PM
Hi Nargsbrood. :)

Tamyrlin
09-09-2011, 08:43 PM
Disagree. It doesn't matter when or where the prophecy was fulfilled. Whether in Rhuidean or in Caemlyn..

You can have the same argument about Mats prophecy being literally fulfilled or figuratively. The prophecy was fulfilled but was he literally killed or figuratively? Until I accept it as fact that his was a literal fulfillment, I cannot accept it as definitive proof that the baelfire scenario in this dawn theory is literal. Does this line of thinking seem illogical?

As the writer creates the prophecies and is aware of the order of events in which these things happen and then shows us these events, I don't see how you can disregard "literal fulfillment" as being a valid interpretation. There are other reasons why a literal interpretation is valid, but as we are outside looking in, in the same manner as the author, why we can't take his view in our interpretations.

NargsBrood
09-09-2011, 08:47 PM
It happened and then what happened is overwritten imperfectly. Those imperfections make it possible for a literal interpretation. If somehow balefire erased all existence of the event from the Pattern, all memories of both those inside and outside the books, I could buy your figurative argument, but it doesn't.
Possibly the device that allows them to remember is the same as the device that lets Heroes in TAR remember events from when they are alive. They no longer have a physical brain so how can they remember anything?

She in fact says that many try to use Balefire, but she never found the idea plausible until adding the component of the connection between the Dragon and the Land. Where is the "in a camp by itself" coming from?

Let me define what I mean by "In a camp by itself". Supposedly it is of a higher caliber than other literal theories because they're all in adequate. It is therefore in its own camp. It is
own camp. It is also not in the same camp as figurative theories since it is supposedly a Literal Theory.

When this figurative theory is compared to other apples, it suddenly loses some of is weight because it does have other theories to compete with in its "class".

If you still don't understand my intent with the use of "In its own camp" then I can reword it again and provide more examples.

NargsBrood
09-09-2011, 08:49 PM
As the writer creates the prophecies and is aware of the order of events in which these things happen and then shows us these events, I don't see how you can disregard "literal fulfillment" as being a valid interpretation.
I don't disregard it but I am definitely arguing against it.

... Therefore,
There are other reasons why a literal interpretation is valid, but as we are outside looking in, in the same manner as the author, why we can't take his view in our interpretations.

I agree and it doesn't change my stance in the slightest.

NargsBrood
09-09-2011, 08:50 PM
Hi Nargsbrood. :)

LoL ;)

Tamyrlin
09-09-2011, 09:05 PM
I don't disregard it but I am definitely arguing against it.

... Therefore,

I agree and it doesn't change my stance in the slightest.

As long as we are in agreement that the concept of a literal interpretation is a valid one, I don't feel like it's necessary to convince you of anything else.

NargsBrood
09-09-2011, 09:18 PM
As long as we are in agreement that the concept of a literal interpretation is a valid one, I don't feel like it's necessary to convince you of anything else.
:eek:
If your only qualm was that you thought that "Nargsy feels that it is impossible for this to be a literal prophecy" then I am sorry to have conveyed that message. Nargsy belives "it is very unlikey or improbable." If you find resolution in this then great! You could have asked in the beginning. ;)

Terez
09-09-2011, 09:21 PM
Some people don't read Aes Sedai too good.

(In other words, I think Tam's post was a diplomatic version of what I said in the post he edited, lol.)

NargsBrood
09-09-2011, 09:27 PM
No fireworks. I didn't even read past the last line of his I quoted, since that line made it clear there was no point.

No point? Hmmm. I didn't write a post to not have a point. Its not fair for you to ignore the post that I took time writing for you because you disagreed with the first line.

Why not read it? Come on! Just go read it!! No? You mad bro?

Oh well. I cannot force you to read it. You might like it though... no telling! Everyone else is reading it though. Might be good to know what it says in case it comes up in the future since it is directly about you.

:p

NargsBrood
09-09-2011, 09:28 PM
As I always say

:eek:
If your only qualm was that you thought that "Nargsy feels that it is impossible for this to be a literal prophecy" then I am sorry to have conveyed that message. Nargsy belives "it is very unlikey or improbable." If you find resolution in this then great! You could have asked in the beginning. ;)

NargsBrood
09-09-2011, 09:39 PM
I did a quick search for Nova in the WoT Resources board but found 0 results. Can someone more familiar with the location of said interview point me in the right direction?

Terez
09-09-2011, 10:08 PM
The google docs where the database is hosted are not part of the resources forum. You have to actually go to the interview database and choose a category. Then you can use CTRL-F. ;)

NargsBrood
09-09-2011, 10:16 PM
Too complicated and needless work for every reader of this thread to hunt down and read. It would be more helpful if you posted it here. It is after all a point You were trying to make. ;)

Terez
09-09-2011, 10:21 PM
A point which I am disinclined to argue with you. Either you are interested enough to look it up, or you aren't. *shrug*

NargsBrood
09-09-2011, 10:33 PM
A point which I am disinclined to argue with you. Either you are interested enough to look it up, or you aren't. *shrug*

The latter I suppose. But I do find that that kind of act(not citing reference) and now your position on the lack thereof rather rude. Oh well. What comes around goes around. Weather is nice down here, eh? Cheerio!

Sodas
09-10-2011, 05:13 PM
There is no evidence in the books that suggest that Rand's connection to the Land would effect the Sun. Rand's connection has effected the decay and growth of food, the lives of people, even the weather, but never the Sun. If the phrase was "twice grows the grass," then you may have a point.

Otherwise, I'll stick to the theory that when Rand removes the rest of the Seals, that the Dark One will reach out across the sky and turn it black. Then, when Rand seals it back up, the Sun will dawn once again as the DO's shadow is removed.

Acaelus
09-10-2011, 05:40 PM
This may be somewhat stupid given the amount of research and effort that has gone into theories concerning this prophecy.

However I would like to point out a few possible ways this could be achieved.

These are: Portal Stones, The Three Rings in Rhuidean and perhaps a more vivid Dream that we haven't experienced yet.

The latter being very unlikely. However a previous encounter with Portal Stones which suits this theory the best would be when Rand tried to use the Portal Stone outside Stedding Tsofu in Cairhien as an alternate form of transport after the Ways were blocked in tGH to catch Fain. During this process the group experienced something strikingly similar to what Moiraine describes of her experience through the Rings. Each individual experienced what seemed to be the many paths their lives could take. Supposedly this was an insight into the infinite parallel worlds that are connected via Portal Stones. Each "life" being a parallel world that will and is and had happened. The Portal Stones contain many symbols, perhaps one exists that can show the day in question before it happens.

My argument for the three Rings is similar, although stronger as we have clear evidence of the Three Rings capability to show a persons futures. Moiraine also elaborates that certain "key" events stay with you more strongly while others fade. Moiraines supposed death and Avienda succumbing to her feelings for Rand can both be considered key events, and both Avienda and Moiraine knew of these beforehand.

I struggle to think of an event more key then the Last Battle. If Rand were to enter the Rings he would surely be shown what would happen, or at least be given a sense of what would happen. Thus the prophecy would be fulfilled figuratively.

However many of the prophecies have been extremely literal. Examples being the prophecy

"Twice and twice shall he be marked,
twice to live and twice to die.
Once the heron, to set his path.
Twice the heron, to name him true.
Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.
Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay."

He was literally marked four times. Also note the importance on twice. So while the options stated above seem plausible, I am inclined to believe RJ intended to follow with this theme and have the day dawn twice. On this point I agree with those theorising that either Dragonmount or Shayol Ghul will erupt and darken the sky obscuring the sun.

My view is that our(the reader) interpretation of the word dawn is the problem. We are educated. You see we know that dawn is when the sun appears on the horizon after the earth has completed a turn on it's axis. However the people in Randland and the Wheel of Time do not know this. To them dawn is when the sun appears to chase away the night. They do not know anything about a planets rotation around the sun. So from their point of view, not ours if the sky is covered in ash and the sun is completely blocked, when it appears again it could very well be heralded as a second dawn. Particularly is the Ash is cleared by the One Power shorty after it's appearance when the sun is still low in the sky.

I don't know, but I feel that we are imparting too much of our reality into theirs. I don't believe the second dawn will actually be a second dawn by the world being reversed on it's axis to a point before dawn. that just seems too literal.

Zombie Sammael
09-10-2011, 05:46 PM
However many of the prophecies have been extremely literal. Examples being the prophecy

"Twice and twice shall he be marked,
twice to live and twice to die.
Once the heron, to set his path.
Twice the heron, to name him true.
Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.
Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay."

He was literal marked for times. Also note the importance on twice. So while the options stated above seem plausible, I am inclined to believe RJ intended to follow with this theme and have the day dawn twice.

Just as an aside, if that prophecy is as literal as you are suggesting, most people forget that Rand/LTT has already lived twice and died once; once each as Lews Therin, and lived once more as Rand al'Thor. So it is arguable this prophecy is almost fulfilled in its entirety, and that there is nothing truly remarkable about it.

Acaelus
09-10-2011, 06:00 PM
I notice you quoted me before I finished my big edit. However you do bring up a surprisingly obvious and valid point. One which I missed.

Taken from the viewpoint that the prophecy is about Rands Soul, and not the man himself then you are right the prophecy could be fulfilled very soon.

Lupusdeusest
09-10-2011, 06:20 PM
I'm a bit late stating this - but perhaps a better analogy would be once upon a time you typed those posts to contain what they do on the Nargsbrood site, but then Tam balefired them, and now what is written in this world aka this thread is what is there currently, and we have but the memories of what was there. We just have to imagine that Tam traveled back in time to do the mighty bale-edit.

Pointless typing this now but eh.

Lupusdeusest
09-10-2011, 06:26 PM
So my visit can at least be of some use:
Question Part 1: In the Wheel of Time there is focus on events occurring again and again throughout history. Is it just history which is circular, or is it time itself which is in a loop?
Jordan: If you think of history being in a loop, then time must be in a loop. The Greeks were the first, as far as we know, to think of time being linear which allows for change. Almost every other culture prior to them had believed in circular time. If time is a wheel there is no possibility of change. Whatever I change now, whatever injustices I correct, the wheel will inevitably return, the inequities will return, there is no possibility for change, therefore there is not impetus to change. So time and history are in a loop in this world, a large enough loop . . . that it is really quite immense.
Question Part 2: So, the sun will never go nova, will never die?
Jordan: In this universe, no.

Tamyrlin
09-10-2011, 06:53 PM
And it could lend itself to be interpreted as the Wheel having much more to do with the connection of the Dragon to the Land...as it would appear the Wheel is able to reset the cosmos. So, the Wheel is more important to this equation than our knowledge of physics.

Sodas
09-10-2011, 08:03 PM
The name of the series is the Wheel of Time. A Wheel implies circular events. Things don't change. Of course the sun doesn't go nova if time keeps repeating. I don't see why that is surprising to you, Tam.



"And it could lend itself to be interpreted as the Wheel having much more to do with the connection of the Dragon to the Land"

:rolleyes:

The Unreasoner
09-10-2011, 09:19 PM
Just as an aside, if that prophecy is as literal as you are suggesting, most people forget that Rand/LTT has already lived twice and died once; once each as Lews Therin, and lived once more as Rand al'Thor. So it is arguable this prophecy is almost fulfilled in its entirety, and that there is nothing truly remarkable about it.

Even more of an aside: If it's as literal as Acaelus said and your reasoning is correct, it would be remarkable. The kestral champion's soul was only born twice so far?

Res_Ipsa
09-10-2011, 09:57 PM
The name of the series is the Wheel of Time. A Wheel implies circular events. Things don't change.

Continuity, as opposed to circular, seems more appropriate. I could be wrong but continuous is what it always struck me as.

Tamyrlin
09-10-2011, 10:04 PM
The name of the series is the Wheel of Time. A Wheel implies circular events. Things don't change. Of course the sun doesn't go nova if time keeps repeating. I don't see why that is surprising to you, Tam.

"And it could lend itself to be interpreted as the Wheel having much more to do with the connection of the Dragon to the Land"

:rolleyes:

Up until that moment at DragonCon it hadn't been clear to me how limited in the scope of time the seven ages contained and it also was not clear to me that everything was reset.

As to the other, I was commenting on the fact that this quote would go along well with the theory. If we assume that the Wheel can reset the cosmos at will, the idea of balefire and the earth's rotation being moved backward doesn't seem far fetched.

Sodas
09-11-2011, 03:41 AM
Up until that moment at DragonCon it hadn't been clear to me how limited in the scope of time the seven ages contained and it also was not clear to me that everything was reset.

Meh. 3 thousand years per Age isn't exactly "limited."

If we assume that the Wheel can reset the cosmos at will, the idea of balefire and the earth's rotation being moved backward doesn't seem far fetched.

It does, particularly in light of the fact that even if it worked, those inside the books would not witness a 2nd dawn. It would occur, literally, but it wouldn't be observed.

So then it becomes one of those, if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around...

The Unreasoner
09-11-2011, 04:46 AM
Continuity, as opposed to circular, seems more appropriate. I could be wrong but continuous is what it always struck me as.

Circular time to me sounds like periodic time, or rather periodic history. But the slight variations that compound over the turnings seem to indicate strong recursive properties as well. I always figured that WoT's history was always recursive, with the semi-deterministic properties regulating the recursion the result of an absolute and periodic mechanism. Like the Wheel. For instance, maybe never allowing channelers in the seventh age, or always having the Dragon as ta'veren in the second are consistent laws from the Wheel. Maybe even vastly complex but absolute laws that regulate PLEs: 'If an event is going down that meets these precise criteria; yank the Hornblower's thread until he summons the Heroes, send the Bannerman forward, and have the Dragon proclaim himself. When and if the Nae'blis arrives, project images of the Dragon and the Nae'blis into the sky, at select locations.'

I am unsure what you meant by continuous vs circular though.


Up until that moment at DragonCon it hadn't been clear to me how limited in the scope of time the seven ages contained and it also was not clear to me that everything was reset.
Not sure why Sodas's post was funny...
He has solid points. I would differ on the first one though. Even if 'nothing changes', the sun could have gone nova at a constant point in every turning, provided it was always remade at a second constant point. And since Age length isn't constant between ages, there is no reason why the Wheel wouldn't have enough time to collapse and remake the universe every turning. There was no way or reason to prove that the sun would never go nova until this quote was brought forward.

Although his point about the 'one with the land' property of the Dragon being fundamentally linked to the Wheel could be critical to the weaving. Even vital to resolving these circular time issues. I would have actually thought you and Terez would embrace this belief. I would personally prefer having the physical inefficiencies solved by being nonexistent (like by allowing perpetual motion, infinite energy, no decay of nuclei). Or perhaps with fundamentally different physical properties. Maybe stars shine by a different process, maybe dinosaurs are restocked by the Ogier's other-otherworld neighbors (shepherds not gardeners), and maybe all lava really is the blood of the land (huh. Maybe blood on the rocks is the flooding of the Pit of Doom with lava. Bizarre). In any case, I'll wait for Sodas to flesh this link out.
As to the other, I was commenting on the fact that this quote would go along well with the theory. If we assume that the Wheel can reset the cosmos at will, the idea of balefire and the earth's rotation being moved backward doesn't seem far fetched.

I don't think the Wheel can just 'reset' the universe, and certainly not at will. (I don't actually think this goes against Sodas's theory or Terez's, as Sodas hasn't demanded a reset button or even proposed a reset method yet, and Terez's theory is conceivably unaffected by the physics quirks being potentially resolved.) For one thing, it would seem to violate the 'perfect design' premise. I realize that it isn't direct intervention of the Creator, but by the same note it does seem to force a really shoddy definition of 'perfect', only permitted because of said function. And if the Wheel could 'reset', it would almost certainly need to do so at a constant point along the Wheel, independent of the actions in the Pattern. Otherwise, the Wheel would be required to force a reset when the odds of perpetuating the Pattern fell sufficiently low (arbitrary, and from the Wheel) to anticipate victory for the Shadow.

It seems like it would either always be overkill (by undoing everything, including history) or highly subjective (stars are reset, but not continent shape; dinosaurs come back, but the ToG isn't removed).

Potentially important is the nature of the hypothetical 'reset' function. Balefiring the Dragon only a few hours back already has some people up in arms regarding the potential dangers. Balefiring the entire universe back billions of years (or even just to the last reliable physical state) seems like it might be even more controversial. And balefire seems to be the only candidate for an absolute reset button. Maybe the Song is, if it even exists. The Song could be similar to the music of the Ainur in Tolkien; the blueprint for reality itself. Perhaps singing it with enough 'belief and order' will do it, maybe channelers using weaves like Moghedien used on Birgitte will be necessary to let it Be! Ea!

But taking Sodas's post linking the circular nature of time to the 'one with the land' property along with a post of Felix somewhere on Dreaming (think he meant dreamwalking. Good luck finding it either way), I see another possible alternative theory to reset, with Mirror Worlds. While I would prefer entropy, atom decay, reintroduction of extinct animals, sun going nova, and other similar topics to have no answer (or at least to require none, there are many plausible methods to bring back the dinosaurs); it may be prudent to hedge this position. And not just with this quote...
Q: In the Wheel of Time mythos, how do extinct animals come back into existence when the Wheel comes back around?
RJ: Well, the world I created is based on the ideas and conceptions of the world from a roughly medieval viewpoint; time being circular and such. I didn't quite try to make it completely scientifically accurate, so there really is no answer for the question.

And so I wonder if it may be the case that the True World for Randland is the world Rand is in at the moment, or the world he wills/needs* it to be.. Obviously, stepping out of the world could be problematic with the 'one with the land' trait, but as the current true Randland is full of real and sentient threads; a short trip via Portal Stone, to Finnland, through the Ways, in the Void, to T'A'R, or into the stedding won't usually harm the Pattern.

The theoryette notes:
1. Felix claiming that the Dragon will (or was it just "can"?) create a New World by Dreaming it in T'A'R, or perhaps in the Void; possibly with the aid of the OP.

2. The extreme version of Sodas's theory which would demand some action of Rand to perpetually maintain the loop of time. Without the Dragon, the Wheel would break eventually; although this theory would seem to imply that without the Dragon, the Wheel would not exist.

3.
Q: Are you going to resurrect any more of the Forsaken because isn't that kind of cheating?
RJ: Read and find out. Cheating? It isn't cheating. Remember that the Dark One is called the Lord of the Grave and the part of this whole thing is that the natural order of things is believed to be cyclic. You are born, you die, you are born again. To most of the people in this world the notion of living on forever is at least queasy making and to some considered to be an abomination. They don't want to. It would be doing something unnatural. After all, the next time you might be somebody better, somebody you like better than who you are now. You might be somebody richer or more famous or more skilled, or whatever. If you live forever under this set of beliefs, if you live forever as who you are, that's who you're stuck with. And you will never manage to top it.

The gist: The Fouth age is really the First, and its beginning is marked by the perfect sealing of the Dark One. The sealing was achieved by creating a new world without the Bore; by strongly believing in its existence and willfully imposing world-defining order in the construction space. (maybe the Dark One was left to consume the old world, maybe Demandred rules there, idk and idc).

some points:
Maybe my perrin-leads-interworld-wolf-strikeforce theory can be modified, and have the packs help with the world-building instead of with killing Finnland darkfriends. I especially like it when considering the wolves' nature: they know the world's (both worlds') laws, and their senses give them a higher degree of familiarity with the world's details. They would avoid all imperfections by noting "wrongness" (the incongruity of chaos, the inappropriate role of Fain, the evil of the Shadow, and the threat to reality found in despair).

The wolves may be capable of more fully understanding the world and it's underlying nature than anyone except perhaps Rand Sedai. They can recognize channelers easily, are master dreamwalkers, and if Perrin's smelling emotions or opening Dreamer-like portals are any guide, intuitively familiar with even complex threads.

Perrin could easily will flowers to bloom around him.

The wolves intuitively 'know' their pack structure, and its place and role in the worlds. A better source of belief and order, I know not. Perhaps this was their role at Dragonmount, to give Rand belief/order supplements. Or to potentially delay the world's possible destruction. Maybe their nature drives them to correct 'Pattern errors', and the black hole of despair (or even the impression of a black hole yet to come) summoned them to DM. I mean, look at their reactions to Myrdraal, possibly the closest to the Dark One incarnate that can be witnessed this side of the Bore.

Egwene can do the Saidar stuff, making it accessible to the new world, for Egwene fans.

Fortuona would be a great source for raw willpower.

Hell, so would Sorilea and Cadsuane. And even Berelain.

Or Galad? Maybe let him create the underlying transcendental morality?

Don't know how to move people from World A to World B. Yet. Maybe they all take the boat with injured Rand and the lovers.

General ignorance/acceptance of physical inconsistencies could be maintained. So even if WoT stars could burn out, stars could be reset to the physical state the world builders assumed/believed.

Could almost certainly explain Aviendha's weird kids. Have you ever tried to make a baby when someone is fiddling with your gravity? Try doing it when someone is tweaking with OP settings and your genetics archive.

Does every Fourth age begin with a new world? Do world threads need to be born, die, and be born again too? Or is this a **LAST** Battle scenario?

Does any Fourth age begin with a new world? Is this unnecessary? Could these things all be done in the original world with the Song, the Power, and T'A'R artifacts like the Horn and Dreamspikes? Or does Rand's world-building complete the circle of the Wheel and allow Time to loop?

Could Rand, with help, build a world with Linear Time?

And: This method of Pattern-maintenance allows the benefits of a reset button along with the significance of action and choice found in more recursive theories.

FelixPax
09-11-2011, 09:56 AM
The name of the series is the Wheel of Time. A Wheel implies circular events. Things don't change. Of course the sun doesn't go nova if time keeps repeating. I don't see why that is surprising to you, Tam.


That claim depends on the nature of the Wheel. Actually the Sun can go nova at every darn single turning of the Wheel.

The circular events is possible because of Dreamer dreaming of a Beginning. A new start, with the Sun returned. A healing of death itself.

Tamyrlin
09-11-2011, 11:02 AM
Meh. 3 thousand years per Age isn't exactly "limited."


In light of the fact that stars exist...but only have existed for thousands of years, but exist in an "aged" state, as though they had existed for billions of years. That's a pretty damn small circle of time.

Tamyrlin
09-11-2011, 11:13 AM
Not sure why Sodas's post was funny...


It was funny, one of those 'you would have had to have been here for the last five or ten years' kind of things I guess.


There was no way or reason to prove that the sun would never go nova until this quote was brought forward.


This is one reason it was surprising to me.


Although his point about the 'one with the land' property of the Dragon being fundamentally linked to the Wheel could be critical to the weaving. Even vital to resolving these circular time issues. I would have actually thought you and Terez would embrace this belief.


I think the theory is fun, and legitimate from a view point of the canon when confronted with a literal view of two dawns; it's not that I believe it to be the actual explanation of what will happen. If a theory is plausible within the canon, it's of interest to me.


I don't think the Wheel can just 'reset' the universe, and certainly not at will. (I don't actually think this goes against Sodas's theory or Terez's, as Sodas hasn't demanded a reset button or even proposed a reset method yet, and Terez's theory is conceivably unaffected by the physics quirks being potentially resolved.) For one thing, it would seem to violate the 'perfect design' premise. I realize that it isn't direct intervention of the Creator, but by the same note it does seem to force a really shoddy definition of 'perfect', only permitted because of said function. And if the Wheel could 'reset', it would almost certainly need to do so at a constant point along the Wheel, independent of the actions in the Pattern. Otherwise, the Wheel would be required to force a reset when the odds of perpetuating the Pattern fell sufficiently low (arbitrary, and from the Wheel) to anticipate victory for the Shadow.


I see no reason the Creator could not have built a reset button just in case the Wheel fails to pass some set of tests designed into the system. A failsafe would seem to make a lot of sense, a very smart failsafe for the most complex "almost sentient" super computer that could be imagined.


Potentially important is the nature of the hypothetical 'reset' function. Balefiring the Dragon only a few hours back already has some people up in arms regarding the potential dangers. Balefiring the entire universe back billions of years (or even just to the last reliable physical state) seems like it might be even more controversial. And balefire seems to be the only candidate for an absolute reset button. Maybe the Song is, if it even exists. The Song could be similar to the music of the Ainur in Tolkien; the blueprint for reality itself. Perhaps singing it with enough 'belief and order' will do it, maybe channelers using weaves like Moghedien used on Birgitte will be necessary to let it Be! Ea!


My point was that the earth actually rotating backward because of the Dragon being balefired, could be a PLE, and not a direct effect of the balefire.


But taking Sodas's post linking the circular nature of time to the 'one with the land' property along with a post of Felix somewhere on Dreaming (think he meant dreamwalking. Good luck finding it either way), I see another possible alternative theory to reset, with Mirror Worlds. While I would prefer entropy, atom decay, reintroduction of extinct animals, sun going nova, and other similar topics to have no answer (or at least to require none, there are many plausible methods to bring back the dinosaurs); it may be prudent to hedge this position. And not just with this quote...


There was a theory posted a while back about a Mirror World melding with the Real World, it was another fun idea.

Zombie Sammael
09-11-2011, 11:30 AM
In light of the fact that stars exist...but only have existed for thousands of years, but exist in an "aged" state, as though they had existed for billions of years. That's a pretty damn small circle of time.

An idea I came up with recently was that the Seventh Age ends with the complete heat death/collapse of the universe, and the first begins with a new Big Bang as a result of the Big Crunch compressing everything together. I doubt Robert Jordan would have liked it, though.

GonzoTheGreat
09-11-2011, 11:55 AM
There is no actual heat death. It's a limit, there is no actual time at which that point would be reached. RJ may very well have been aware of that, though I find it difficult to estimate how likely that is. I have followed a course on Cosmology during my study, which may colour how obvious I consider this.

Zombie Sammael
09-11-2011, 12:07 PM
There is no actual heat death. It's a limit, there is no actual time at which that point would be reached. RJ may very well have been aware of that, though I find it difficult to estimate how likely that is. I have followed a course on Cosmology during my study, which may colour how obvious I consider this.

It's the Big Crunch followed by Big Bang idea, i.e. that at some point the universe would return to it's original state (end of 7th age) then begin again with a new Big Bang (beginning of 1st).

FelixPax
09-11-2011, 01:12 PM
Although his point about the 'one with the land' property of the Dragon being fundamentally linked to the Wheel could be critical to the weaving

The Land is one with Valan Luca, The Dragon is one with the Land. A 'Human Storm'.


"The Queen is wed to the land," "but the Dragon... the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon." :eek: (Source: TEotW, Chapter 34 'The Last Village')


Recollect who tries to get the Daughter Heir's interest in Amadicia? The Showman Valan Luca, aka the blind true Dragon.



Maybe stars shine by a different process

Gawyn's dreams are star like, according to Egwene al'Vere. Gawyn's even made Egwene blush red. :D


I don't think the Wheel can just 'reset' the universe, and certainly not at will.

That event requires 'agency'. A will. Action.



Potentially important is the nature of the hypothetical 'reset' function. Balefiring the Dragon only a few hours back already has some people up in arms regarding the potential dangers. Balefiring the entire universe back billions of years (or even just to the last reliable physical state) seems like it might be even more controversial. And balefire seems to be the only candidate for an absolute reset button.

Rand al'Thor Balefiring Elza Penfell did not bring back Osan'gar life (TGS), according to Brandon Sanderson. Fact.

The Choedan Kal does not presently exist, in Randland, whether the Male or Female versions. Each has been destroyed. The only possible giant sa'angreal which is known to exist is found in the Black Hills.


Balefire will not 'reset' the Wheel. Balefire is a tool of destruction, not creation.


A World is created by a Dream.

Who has created a Crystal Palace from nothing but Imagination and a Dream? Nynaeve al'Meara has. Even Elayne Trakand knows this. Laugh, remember Elayne's 'Unicorn'?


But taking Sodas's post linking the circular nature of time to the 'one with the land' property along with a post of Felix somewhere on Dreaming (think he meant dreamwalking. Good luck finding it either way), I see another possible alternative theory to reset, with Mirror Worlds.

What's needed is imagination, in an area where the Dark One does not control. By imagination, I mean like this (1st example):

Abruptly Nynaeve was jerked from memory back to the night; there really was a hand on her arm. Stifling the cry that rose in her throat, she fumbled for the knife at her belt, her hand closing on the hilt before she realized that the hand was Lan’s.

The Warder’s hood was thrown back, but his chameleon-like cloak blended so well with the night that the dim blur of his face seemed to hang suspended in the night.The hand on her arm appeared to come out of thin air.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 37 "The Long Chase" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view; with Lan


I did not write Dreamwalking, as that implies searching for a given soul, in a World of Dreams.


Nynaeve's memory & imagination will not allow Lan to die. He can literally appear out of thin air, in a World of Dreams. How? Nynaeve's agency alone.


A 2nd example

Or a memory of Nynaeve's like this:

Sunrise creeping across the River Arinelle found its way into the hollow not far from the riverbank where Nynaeve sat with her back against the trunk of a young oak, breathing the deep breath of sleep. Her horse slept, too, head down and legs spraddled in the manner of horses. The reins were wrapped around her wrist. As sunlight fell on the horse’s eyelids, the animal opened its eyes and raised its head, jerking the reins. Nynaeve came awake with a start.

For a moment she stared, wondering where she was, then stared around even more wildly when she remembered. But there were only the trees, and her horse, and a carpet of old, dry leaves across the bottom of the hollow. In the deepest dimness, some of last year’s shadowshand mushrooms made rings on a fallen log.

“The Light preserve you, woman,” she murmured, sagging back, “if you can’t stay awake one night.” She untied the reins and massaged her wrist as she stood. “You could have awakened in a Trolloc cookpot.”

The dead leaves rustled as she climbed to the lip of the hollow and peeped over. No more than a handful of ash trees stood between her and the river. Their fissured bark and bare branches made them seem dead. Beyond, the wide blue-green water flowed by. Empty. Empty of anything. Scattered clumps of evergreens, willows and firs, dotted the far bank, and there seemed to be fewer trees altogether than on her side. If Moiraine or any of the younglings were over there, they were well hidden. Of course, there was no reason they had to have crossed, or tried to cross, in sight of where she was. They could be anywhere ten miles upriver or down. If they’re alive at all, after last night.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 21 "Listen to the Wind" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view


Dreaming outside of the space & time on Earth, where the Dark One is freed. Dreaming outside of a space & time on Earth, when it is transforming from a Mirror World to a Parallel World to a World conquered by the Dark One.


Too bad Robert Jordan had not created vocabulary to distinguish different parts of the World of Dreams in more detail. He uses the same word, Dream(ing), to define a manifold of Realities or Worlds or Space & Time Continuums. By keeping the terms Dream & Dreaming relatively undefined (vague), it enables author Robert Jordan has retained an ample narrative advantages.

'All-Time' exists in the Dream of Worlds, according to Birgitte at Falme. The Dark One cannot go back in Time, according to Demandred point of view. In other words, the Dark One cannot access Perpendicular Worlds or alternative Time & Space Contunuums.


And so I wonder if it may be the case that the True World for Randland is the world Rand is in at the moment, or the world he wills/needs* it to be..

'True World' is a phrase, only Mierin/Selene/Lanfear character has used in the Wheel of Time. (Note Cyndane never used this term.) This phrase has grave limitations, because Mierin does not fully understand how the broader World of Dreams operates. Mierin seem to believe channeling DRIVES the World. It does not. Mierin believes channeling is MORE POWERFUL than imagination. It is not.

Imagination, Memory and Belief are stronger than Channeling, in a place where Dreams reign. Want an example? Perrin stopped Egwene al'Vere's balefire by Imagining it, in one part of a World of Dreams in a Mirror World called Earth (See 'Towers of Midnight').


The theoryette notes:
1. Felix claiming that the Dragon will (or was it just "can"?) create a New World by Dreaming it in T'A'R, or perhaps in the Void; possibly with the aid of the OP.

Channeling is not needed to Dream. Wise Ones Bair and Seana were/are able to Dream, yet neither was a channeler.

Yes, I support a Theory that the true Dragon is a Dreamer. I support a Theory that the Dragon was severed by a member of the White Tower. I support a Theory that the Dragon is Valan Luca. I support a Theory that Valan Luca has dreamed of Nynaeve al'Meara's future actions, hence his Vow to Nynaeve al'Meara in TFoH book.



Philosophical Parallels of WoT in Indian Thought


Anyone here knowledgeable of about the Nagarjuna school views on the dharmas (world constituents), that all is void? Likewise anyone knowledgeable about the Hindu Nyaya school of logic?

I mention these two schools of thought, because both are found in India. Philosophy matters, because Robert Jordan drew heavily on Indian mythology, folklore & thought (e.g. Ganesha, Shiva)


Causality and potentiality became sites of argument over the reality and plurity of substance. Nagarjuna had pointed up the problem by defining the real as that which is causually efficacious. Therefore, since everything is linked in a chain of causes, nothing is independently real, possessing its own nature. There are non universals and no substance. Out of this stance the Yogacara school propounded a full-fledged Idealism: what appear to be world objects are supplied by the mind, which imposes the relation of externality on subjective ideas.


Source: Randall Collins, 'The Sociology of Philosophies: A Global Theory of Intellectual Change', Harvard University Press, published 1998.

the_collective
09-11-2011, 03:11 PM
Just as an aside, if that prophecy is as literal as you are suggesting, most people forget that Rand/LTT has already lived twice and died once; once each as Lews Therin, and lived once more as Rand al'Thor. So it is arguable this prophecy is almost fulfilled in its entirety, and that there is nothing truly remarkable about it.

I want to point out that the prophecies/Foretellings that comprise the Karaethon Cycle did not even begin to come into existence until after Lews Therin had created Dragonmount. Ergo, the "Twice and twice shall he be marked" prophecy is all about Rand al'Thor and not at all about Lews Therin Telamon, in the same way that all of Min's prophetic sightings are of future events (or possible future events in the case of visions seen post-LoC, or whenever "order" really started breaking down in the Pattern).

Zombie Sammael
09-11-2011, 04:26 PM
I want to point out that the prophecies/Foretellings that comprise the Karaethon Cycle did not even begin to come into existence until after Lews Therin had created Dragonmount. Ergo, the "Twice and twice shall he be marked" prophecy is all about Rand al'Thor and not at all about Lews Therin Telamon, in the same way that all of Min's prophetic sightings are of future events (or possible future events in the case of visions seen post-LoC, or whenever "order" really started breaking down in the Pattern).

There's no reason a prophecy can't reference a past event. In fact, they almost have to, to give any context at all. "He will be reborn" doesn't make a lot of sense unless you know who "he" is in the first place. In this case, the prophecy does exactly that. It's telling you LTT will be reborn, live and die again.

Sodas
09-11-2011, 11:14 PM
Not sure why Sodas's post was funny...
He has solid points. I would differ on the first one though. Even if 'nothing changes', the sun could have gone nova at a constant point in every turning, provided it was always remade at a second constant point.

Thank you.

I think the problem may be is that you are looking at it scientifically. The Sun in Randland was created by the Creator. There was no Big Bang. This is not a scientific explanation of the universe, where the universe had to create itself. An entity, the Creator, made it. And the concept is it will keep going until the Dark One destroys it. Therefore, we can surmise there wouldn't be a big collapse either.

I really thought the BWB explained it best long ago,

"In this world there is no one beginning or one end, for each spoke of the great Wheel represents one of the seven Ages, receding into the past and returning in the future as the Wheel spins, the fabric of each age changing only its weave and pattern with each passing." - Chapter 1 BWB

Basically, Time repeats, with small variations. But in general, they make the 7 changes that can be defined as Age changing moments. But there is no particular moment of recreation. "There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time." The Wheel of Time is continous. It won't end unless the Dark One is free to destroy it.


Think about applying the notion of the Sun going Nova each turning. The Sun going Nova means the destruction of the planet. That couldn't happen often or there wouldn't be remains from civilizations long ago, such as the Portal Stones, or the Red Stone Doorways, etc. So the books don't support a notion that the planet is recreated over and over again.

What happens is that the Wheel determines when it needs to change it's Ages, and does so creating an endless loop. Mankind reaches apex of society (Age of Legends), so it then ends up destroying itself back to the stone age. Time continues on, to start over again, repeating the same process.

GonzoTheGreat
09-12-2011, 04:00 AM
A far stronger reason to doubt the nova/Big Crunch idea can be found in the first chapter of every main book of the series. The ToM version:
In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, ...Now, add to this that the Ages are indeed rather easy to distinguish from each other (at least, there's a good boundary between Second and Third Age, and also between Third and Fourth based on what we know), then it makes no sense to have any doubts about which precise number any specific Age should have, if the universe really does begin each time in a Big Bang. In that case, the first Age after the BB would be the First Age.

But if you have a situation where the world continues to exist during the transition from Seventh Age to First Age, then assigning definite number to each Age becomes a lot more arbitrary. In that case, the sentence I've quoted does have enough validity to justify its inclusion in all those books.