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Zombie Sammael
09-05-2011, 06:25 AM
“I have the most wonderful news, Cadsuane.” By the sound other, she was not all certain how wonderful it was. “I know you said I should keep Damer busy here in the Palace, but he insisted on looking at the sisters still in the Aiel camp. Mild-tempered as he is, he’s very insistent when he wants to be, and sure as the sun there’s nothing can’t be Healed. And, well, the fact of it is, he’s gone and Healed Irgain. Cadsuane, it’s as if she’d never been . . . ” She trailed off, unable to say the word. It hung in the air even so. Stilled.

“Wonderful news,” Cadsuane said flatly. It was. Every sister carried the fear somewhere deep inside that she might be cut off from the Power. And now a way to Heal what could not be Healed had been discovered. By a man. There would be tears and recriminations before this was done with. In any case, while every sister who heard would consider it a world-shaking discovery—in more ways than one; a man!—it was a storm in a teacup compared to Rand al’Thor. “I suppose she is offering herself up to be beaten like the others?”

“She won’t need to,” Verin said absently. She was frowning at an inkstain on her finger, but she seemed to be studying something beyond. “The Wise Ones apparently decided that Rand had punished Irgain and the other two sufficiently when he . . . did what he did. At the same time they were treating the others like worthless animals, they have been working to keep those three alive. I heard talk about finding Ronaille a husband.”

“Irgain knows all about the oaths the others swore.” Corele’s voice took on tones of amazement. “She started weeping for the loss of her Warders almost as soon as Damer finished with her, but she’s ready to swear, too. The thing of it is, Damer wants to try with Sashalle and Ronaille, too.” Surprisingly, she drew herself up almost defiantly. She had always been as arrogant as any other Yellow, but she had always known where she stood with Cadsuane. “I can’t see letting a sister remain in that condition if there’s a way out, Cadsuane. I want to let Damer try his hand with them.”

And of course, later in the book he succeeds with both Sashalle and Ronaille, too.

Now, very little has been made of these three other than that they've been healed, and we've generally assumed it was done just to show that Flinn could do it and that a woman healed by a man would go back to full strength. However, it occurred to me this morning that here we have three AS, apparently sworn to Rand, none of whom are bound by the Three Oaths, and no-one has realised. It would be terrible if one of them were black, or even if one of them merely decided their loyalties lay in a direction other than Rand (for example, Egwene and the Tower), and did something about it. They're barely mentioned again as far as I can tell from the encyclopedia, but I'm inclined to think that everything happens, for some reason...

GonzoTheGreat
09-05-2011, 06:29 AM
Siuan and Leane would know, just as soon as they heard about it. Now, if only people shared news, instead of merely trading gossip ...

Zombie Sammael
09-05-2011, 07:04 AM
Siuan and Leane would know, just as soon as they heard about it. Now, if only people shared news, instead of merely trading gossip ...

The problem being that if Siuan and Leane wanted to call the other healed sisters' bluffs, they'd have to show their own hand. Which could cause all kinds of problems for Egwene and the Tower.

GonzoTheGreat
09-05-2011, 07:34 AM
The problem being that if Siuan and Leane wanted to call the other healed sisters' bluffs, they'd have to show their own hand. Which could cause all kinds of problems for Egwene and the Tower.Fun, isn't it?

Of course, Egwene has a fairly good list of BA members, so she can send someone over to Rand to help him root out any untrustworthy AS from his entourage. Assuming, of course, that she thinks of doing that.

Weird Harold
09-05-2011, 12:39 PM
... it occurred to me this morning that here we have three AS, apparently sworn to Rand, none of whom are bound by the Three Oaths, and no-one has realised. It would be terrible if one of them were black, or even if one of them merely decided their loyalties lay in a direction other than Rand ...

Sashalle is taking charge in Cairhein over Samitsu. Other than that you are correct that all three are relegated to "spear-carrier" status.

None of the three are named as BA. But Irgain explicitly, and all of the captured TAS from Dumai's Wells, implicitly, were subjected to Verin's interrogation and Suggestion Weave which binds them to ensuring that the Dragon Reborn survives to stand at T'G.

Kimon
09-05-2011, 12:47 PM
And of course, later in the book he succeeds with both Sashalle and Ronaille, too.

Now, very little has been made of these three other than that they've been healed, and we've generally assumed it was done just to show that Flinn could do it and that a woman healed by a man would go back to full strength. However, it occurred to me this morning that here we have three AS, apparently sworn to Rand, none of whom are bound by the Three Oaths, and no-one has realised. It would be terrible if one of them were black, or even if one of them merely decided their loyalties lay in a direction other than Rand (for example, Egwene and the Tower), and did something about it. They're barely mentioned again as far as I can tell from the encyclopedia, but I'm inclined to think that everything happens, for some reason...

Are you sure about that? Take a look again at Verin's reaction. Her response need not imply anything dire to the extent of any of the three being Black Ajah, but she certainly seems troubled by the news. Sashalle at the very least is in a position to cause trouble, and her letter back to Tar Valon was sent to Galina (assuming her to still be Ajah Head), and keep in mind, that Pevara noted that Tsutama made sure to not let her (or Javindhra) see the letter, or to share all its contents, but noted that Tsutama seemed to have not liked much that she had read...

Zombie Sammael
09-05-2011, 12:54 PM
Sashalle is taking charge in Cairhein over Samitsu. Other than that you are correct that all three are relegated to "spear-carrier" status.

That right there is a worry, surely? If she's the head of the AS delegation in Cairhien yet able to lie and be disloyal to Rand... well, very worrying.

None of the three are named as BA. But Irgain explicitly, and all of the captured TAS from Dumai's Wells, implicitly, were subjected to Verin's interrogation and Suggestion Weave which binds them to ensuring that the Dragon Reborn survives to stand at T'G.

But, to be fair, it's not like we've actually seen Verin/Egwene's big list of the names; Verin still allowed Elza to run loose, as well. They will have to get the Dragon to TG, but they are uniquely placed in that unlike the other sworn sisters, they are not oath-bound. I think there must be some purpose to that.

GonzoTheGreat
09-06-2011, 03:24 AM
Verin was still bound to the Shadow when she left Rand and Elza, so she couldn't do anything about it then.

And, just for fun: if one (or more) of the three is BA, then she has been freed from the Black Oaths now. Which may change things anyway.

Zombie Sammael
09-06-2011, 04:45 AM
Verin was still bound to the Shadow when she left Rand and Elza, so she couldn't do anything about it then.

Verin would still have been bound to the Shadow when these three AS were healed, as well.

And, just for fun: if one (or more) of the three is BA, then she has been freed from the Black Oaths now. Which may change things anyway.

True, but I'm of the school of thought that says being released from oaths - any oaths - merely makes one more dangerous.

GonzoTheGreat
09-06-2011, 04:54 AM
Verin would still have been bound to the Shadow when these three AS were healed, as well.But she could still have included their names in her neat little book, couldn't she?


True, but I'm of the school of thought that says being released from oaths - any oaths - merely makes one more dangerous.Maybe whichever of them used to be Black has been spilling Shadow secrets for weeks now, but it all happened off screen, so that we have not (yet) seen anything of it.
Then again, maybe not.

Zombie Sammael
09-06-2011, 05:14 AM
But she could still have included their names in her neat little book, couldn't she?

It's not like there's any particular evidence other than inaction that their names aren't in the notebook. There are a multitude of reasons why Egwene might not have contacted Rand about it, all of which are completely reasonable. For example, if you were in a dispute with someone about taking a course of action which you believed there was a reasonable chance might destroy the world, you might be inclined to think that a note saying "By the way, these three people who you trust are in fact untrustworthy Darkfriends" might not be very well received.

GonzoTheGreat
09-06-2011, 05:49 AM
It's not like there's any particular evidence other than inaction that their names aren't in the notebook. There are a multitude of reasons why Egwene might not have contacted Rand about it, all of which are completely reasonable. For example, if you were in a dispute with someone about taking a course of action which you believed there was a reasonable chance might destroy the world, you might be inclined to think that a note saying "By the way, these three people who you trust are in fact untrustworthy Darkfriends" might not be very well received.On the other hand, if you think that that someone is about to make a big mistake which might result in the destruction of the world, and you know that is precisely what Darkfriends are aiming for, then you might (if you're not Egwene) reason that specifically DFs like that could possibly be influencing Rand in his determination. Furthermore, if you knew that Rand is not really sworn to the Shadow, then you might consider the possibility that he would be willing to remove known DFs from his councils, or at least to take into account their bias.

Letting a petty snit get in the way of informing a supposed friend about a serious threat to his life (and the existence of the entire universe) is a bit low. I do admit that it seems something Egwene would do.

Zombie Sammael
09-06-2011, 09:58 AM
On the other hand, if you think that that someone is about to make a big mistake which might result in the destruction of the world, and you know that is precisely what Darkfriends are aiming for, then you might (if you're not Egwene) reason that specifically DFs like that could possibly be influencing Rand in his determination. Furthermore, if you knew that Rand is not really sworn to the Shadow, then you might consider the possibility that he would be willing to remove known DFs from his councils, or at least to take into account their bias.

Letting a petty snit get in the way of informing a supposed friend about a serious threat to his life (and the existence of the entire universe) is a bit low. I do admit that it seems something Egwene would do.

You love Egwene. Admit it. ;)

There is also the possibility that she simply might not know. Verin's list was not entirely comprehensive, as I believe Verin herself admitted.

skaywalker
09-07-2011, 02:32 AM
There is also the possibility that she simply might not know. Verin's list was not entirely comprehensive, as I believe Verin herself admitted.


Well there's that:

Each name was like a thorn through Egwene's skin. Dagdara Finchey, who had healed Egwene once when she'd stumbled and twisted her ankle. Zanica, who had taught Egwene lessons and had seemed so pleasant. Larissa Lyndel. Miyasi, for whom Egwene had cracked nuts. Nesita. Nacelle Kayama. Nalaene Forrell, who—like Elza—was bound to Rand. Birlen Pena. Melvara. Chai Rugan. . . .

So she knew for at least two black members with Rand but didn't bother telling him.

GonzoTheGreat
09-07-2011, 04:02 AM
So she knew for at least two black members with Rand but didn't bother telling him.This dedication to the well being of her friend, I have to say, is one of the qualities that affects precisely how much I love Egwene.

WinespringBrother
09-07-2011, 08:29 AM
FWIW: (I'm not going to bother multiquoting my responses, but it will be apparent what they are pertaining to)

Elza was already dead by the time Egwene learned of her dark allegiance.

Egwene had no idea where Rand was or how to contact him. Also, she has legitimate reasons for not revealing this information about who is in the Black Ajah, since its source was confidential and it is an internal White Tower issue.

The whole removing oaths through either reswearing or being stilled cat is out of the bag, due to Egwene's scheme to have everyone reswear their oaths.

Besides, Siuan and Leane have retaken their oaths.

GonzoTheGreat
09-07-2011, 09:00 AM
Did Egwene know that Elza was dead?
Did Egwene know that Nalaene Forrell was dead?

Has Egwene tried to set up some way of contacting Rand if that were to become necessary?
Say, for instance, if she, the Watcher of the Seals, discovered actual evidence that the DO was actually breaking free, then it might potentially be useful if she, the Watcher of the Seals, informed the Dragon Reborn, who is supposed to respond to that kind of thing, that there's a problem.

An "internal White Tower issue". I wonder whether Rand would have agreed with that assessment if he'd ended up killing Min as a result of that internal White Tower issue.

And, as for not knowing where Rand was or how to contact him: she could, in theory, theoretically speaking, perhaps, maybe, possibly, have known where he was when he strolled into the White Tower and had his audience with her.
If you want to claim that she could not have passed on this information, then I would want some actual textual evidence showing that she never met him, in defiance of what chapter 3 (The Amyrlin's Anger) of ToM suggests happened.

WinespringBrother
09-07-2011, 09:53 AM
Did Egwene know that Elza was dead?
Did Egwene know that Nalaene Forrell was dead?

Has Egwene tried to set up some way of contacting Rand if that were to become necessary?
Say, for instance, if she, the Watcher of the Seals, discovered actual evidence that the DO was actually breaking free, then it might potentially be useful if she, the Watcher of the Seals, informed the Dragon Reborn, who is supposed to respond to that kind of thing, that there's a problem.

An "internal White Tower issue". I wonder whether Rand would have agreed with that assessment if he'd ended up killing Min as a result of that internal White Tower issue.

And, as for not knowing where Rand was or how to contact him: she could, in theory, theoretically speaking, perhaps, maybe, possibly, have known where he was when he strolled into the White Tower and had his audience with her.
If you want to claim that she could not have passed on this information, then I would want some actual textual evidence showing that she never met him, in defiance of what chapter 3 (The Amyrlin's Anger) of ToM suggests happened.

1. No, but it is a moot point. Elza was dealt with.
2. No, but it is apparently a moot point since Nalaene is not in Rand's presence (she is presumably in the Aiel camp being pampered and mollycoddled by the Wise Ones).
3. Not sure what this has to do with my post, but anyway, no, but it is a moot point, since Rand pretty much told Egwene that when they communicate it will be on his terms. He can be mule-headed in that regard sometimes.

As for my tongue-in-cheek assessment of White Tower politics, I think Rand would have had other problems besides Min's death to fret about if he hadn't escaped Semirhage at that time. Again, a moot point since Egwene did not know at the time that Elza's attack was taking place that Elza was Black Ajah since a) she was still a novice under Elaida's thumb and b) Verin had not outed Elza yet. And another reason I forgot was that it is possible that if Egwene tipped off Rand somehow, lets say after she got Verin's notes(Rand was MIA, don't forget), that she may have botched the capture and execution of those that didn't get away, making a bad situation worse.

As for her passing that information to Rand during their audience, perhaps she didn't due to ta'veren influence, or Rand was double-parked and left abruptly before she could mention it, or any of a number of reasons that don't leave Egwene guilty of whatever you are implying by your somewhat sarcastic tone.

As for your last sentence, I'm not sure what evidence you want (I don't recall what you are saying that chapter 3 suggests happened, can you provide a quote?) I don't have a quote that says she could not have passed on this information, but there are reasons to suggest why she didn't, including limiting the length of an already behemoth book. Because talking about the Black Ajah (which IIRC Rand has never gotten involved in hunting or dealing with) would lead to other plots not appearing in this book.

GonzoTheGreat
09-07-2011, 10:28 AM
As far as I know, Egwene does not know that Elza is dead. As far as I know, Egwene does not know precisely which AS are or aren't in a position to get close enough to Rand to balefire him at the wrong moment.

Rand did start to leave fairly abrubtly, and then Egwene called him back to natter about the Seals. She could have taken the opportunity to warn him about danger, instead, and leave the actual job of fighting the DO up to the one single person who is capable of handling that job.

As for the evidence, I was trying to point out that you can not possibly have such evidence. We know that Egwene and Rand communicated after Egwene got that list. We know that Egwene did not bother to pass on the information, for whatever reason she might have had to keep it secret.

Rand had gotten involved in dealing with the BA when Liandrin attacked him in TGH. Rand had gotten involved in dealing with the BA when they dug up the E've that was later used by Semirhage. Rand had gotten involved with the BA when Galina became head of his kidnappers. Rand had gotten involved with the BA when Elza helped Semirhage.

And, of course, it would be exceedingly stupid if Egwene actually believes that the BA would ignore the DR because she does not tell him about them.

WinespringBrother
09-07-2011, 11:46 AM
As far as I know, Egwene does not know that Elza is dead. As far as I know, Egwene does not know precisely which AS are or aren't in a position to get close enough to Rand to balefire him at the wrong moment.

Rand did start to leave fairly abrubtly, and then Egwene called him back to natter about the Seals. She could have taken the opportunity to warn him about danger, instead, and leave the actual job of fighting the DO up to the one single person who is capable of handling that job.

As for the evidence, I was trying to point out that you can not possibly have such evidence. We know that Egwene and Rand communicated after Egwene got that list. We know that Egwene did not bother to pass on the information, for whatever reason she might have had to keep it secret.

Rand had gotten involved in dealing with the BA when Liandrin attacked him in TGH. Rand had gotten involved in dealing with the BA when they dug up the E've that was later used by Semirhage. Rand had gotten involved with the BA when Galina became head of his kidnappers. Rand had gotten involved with the BA when Elza helped Semirhage.

And, of course, it would be exceedingly stupid if Egwene actually believes that the BA would ignore the DR because she does not tell him about them.


1. Rand has already been warned to trust no Aes Sedai, and he doesn't. Egwene knows that he doesn't trust Aes Sedai. It may be belaboring the point for her to tell Rand not to trust certain Aes Sedai who are Black Ajah and running around god knows where, not to mention that there are probably a few that Egwene doesn't know about. At this point, it isn't a game-changer, since Rand is focussed on his plans, and according to all the foretellings and prophecies that Rand knows about, he will make it to Shayol Ghul and die with Alivia's assistance at some point. I think it would be nice for Egwene to warn Rand, but what would Rand's response be anyway? Not to mention, it kind of ties in with the ongoing themes of lack of communication between the protagonists.

2. I thought Rand was the one person capable of fighting the DO. Are you referring to 2 different people in the 2nd sentence ("him" and "single person who is capable of handling that job) or is it just a run-on sentence.

3. I am still not sure what evidence (or evidence of what argument I am making) you are referring to that I cannot possibly have. Please elaborate.

4. I am not sure what Liandrin, Galina and Elza have to do with this discussion since they are ancient history for all intents and purposes. And Rand certainly needs no warnings about Liandrin and Galina, he already knows how dangerous they are.

5. I am not sure what is the point of you saying the last sentence, since I would not and have never taken the stance that Egwene believes that. Unless you are trying to drum up some Egwene bashing, to which I say BA!

So, to sum things up, Egwene didn't fully disclose her knowledge of active agents of the Black Ajah (nor her suspicions of Mesaana but you didn't mention that) to Rand and this may end up coming back to haunt Rand. That is definitely possible, I won't debate that. But then again, Verin could have suicided and given the info to Rand directly, so bad on her also, no? (though I guess it's possible that there was some interesting tidbits in the note Rand got from Tiana)

GonzoTheGreat
09-07-2011, 12:18 PM
1. But Egwene now has a list of specific AS sworn to the Shadow. She knows that some of those are reputedly serving Rand. She could have told him about them.
She could have offered to send a squad along with him to arrest them. Instead she lets them continue serving the DO in whatever way they see fit.

2. It was a run on sentence. My point is that Egwene is questioning Rand's fitness to fight the DO based on nothing more than her unwillingness to believe that he actually could do the job.

3. Evidence that she never was in a position in which she could tell him anything, nor could ever have passed on any information to him.
Since they met, that's a rather impossible standard to meet.

4. My point here is that saying "the BA are a WT affair, no one else should get involved" is ludicrous.
Lots of others are involved, often simply because they have been tortured or killed (or both) by BA members. It would be like the Italian American community telling the FBI to stop bothering the Maffia, as that was an Italian issue, and thus not something the Federal government should interfere in.

5. Here, the following two quotes from you are what I was responding two:
Also, she has legitimate reasons for not revealing this information about who is in the Black Ajah, since its source was confidential and it is an internal White Tower issue.
Because talking about the Black Ajah (which IIRC Rand has never gotten involved in hunting or dealing with) would lead to other plots not appearing in this book.You suggest that Egwene would believe that the BA is an internal WT issue, with no repercussions at all for anyone outside the WT, and that the DR has not had any dealings with the BA.
Neither point is convincing, I think you'll agree. Yet I do think that I've reasonably fairly restated your claims.
So I hope that you understand why I do not think that Egwene has any good reason to keep the BA secret, and specificially that she does not have any good reason to keep the BA members close to Rand secret from him.

The fact that she did keep them secret is not a surprise to me; it is very consistent with her behavior in the rest of the series.

WinespringBrother
09-07-2011, 03:03 PM
1. But Egwene now has a list of specific AS sworn to the Shadow. She knows that some of those are reputedly serving Rand. She could have told him about them.
She could have offered to send a squad along with him to arrest them. Instead she lets them continue serving the DO in whatever way they see fit.

2. It was a run on sentence. My point is that Egwene is questioning Rand's fitness to fight the DO based on nothing more than her unwillingness to believe that he actually could do the job.

3. Evidence that she never was in a position in which she could tell him anything, nor could ever have passed on any information to him.
Since they met, that's a rather impossible standard to meet.

4. My point here is that saying "the BA are a WT affair, no one else should get involved" is ludicrous.
Lots of others are involved, often simply because they have been tortured or killed (or both) by BA members. It would be like the Italian American community telling the FBI to stop bothering the Maffia, as that was an Italian issue, and thus not something the Federal government should interfere in.

5. Here, the following two quotes from you are what I was responding two:

You suggest that Egwene would believe that the BA is an internal WT issue, with no repercussions at all for anyone outside the WT, and that the DR has not had any dealings with the BA.
Neither point is convincing, I think you'll agree. Yet I do think that I've reasonably fairly restated your claims.
So I hope that you understand why I do not think that Egwene has any good reason to keep the BA secret, and specificially that she does not have any good reason to keep the BA members close to Rand secret from him.

The fact that she did keep them secret is not a surprise to me; it is very consistent with her behavior in the rest of the series.

1. There is a BIG timing problem with that. Rand showed up 3 days after the Black Ajah outing party, so any sisters still in Rand's party would have heard the news and run for the hills. As for any in Aiel custody still somehow, they would likely be dealt with. There is the possibility of some falling through the cracks, but don't forget, Egwene would be assuming by this time that all the darkfriend sisters would have used common sense and fled. Besides, Egwene could find the last known location of the Aes Sedai in Rand's party from their Aiel babysitters, and go behind Rand's back to deal with them, no need to get Rand involved at all (if she thought it would do any good).

2. Egwene's opinion of Rand's fitness (in all honesty it was horrible until his awakening at DM) deserves its own thread, but has no real bearing on oath-free Aes Sedai running loose.

3. Whether she could possibly communicate with Rand is not the issue. I only said that Egwene didn't know how to contact Rand, since he was moving around (the readers don't even know where Rand was for long stretches of TofM, hopefully that info will be revealed in AMOL) - that's a long way from claiming that it was impossible to contact him. And Egwene isn't omniscient to be able to conjure a way to easily communicate with someone who doesn't even stay near his own allies/protectors all the time. I suppose it's possible that Egwene could invade people dreams until she finds someone in Rand's vicinity to be her messenger but thats a bit ludicrous. See point 1 for an alternate means for Egwene to deal with this. And I've listed in my previous posts reasons why she wouldn't disclose fully, whether those reasons are justifiable or not.

4. Did you miss the "tongue-in-cheek" commentary? Besides, how are you comparing Rand to the FBI? I could see Egwene as the (God)Mother though =) And the White Tower does see itself as the ultimate authority in the land so them wanting to dispense justice to their own initiates should not come as a shock. I'm sure Rand is happy to let them deal with it, with everything he already has on his plate.

5. I said what Egwene believes that the Black Ajah is an internal issue to the White Tower to resolve. I can't understand how you interpret that to mean anything like Egwene believing there are no repercussions outside the WT or that the Dragon Reborn had not had dealings with the Black Ajah. Of course neither point is convincing, I am not trying to make either point. And I would say that you have not reasonably restated my claims. If you want to refute my point, then show me someone who could reliably apprehend or kill rogue darkfriend channelers besides other channelers. If you say the Black Tower, I will laugh, since many of them like as not will side with the renegade sisters. Which brings me to another point, how would Rand be a good choice to hunt down darkfriend Black Ajah, when his own (Black Tower) house is in disarray/infected with darkfriends?

GonzoTheGreat
09-08-2011, 04:20 AM
Rand would not bother with trying to hunt BA members, true.

But with Rand running around who knows where (as you point out, it's unclear where he goes or what he does there) he could very easily accidentally run into some BA members. That's what ta'veren is all about: making the unlikely happen all the time. If he had a list then at least he could find out that they were not trustworthy before turning his back on them to walk on.

As for the channelers who could help hunt down the BA: apart from the BT, there are also the WOs (who might or might not cooperate with Egwene if she doesn't tell them what it is about) and the Windfinders (who almost certainly have not heard from Egwene precisely who is on the BA list).

Finally there is the possibility that Rand would have said "tricky problem, I don't have any good suggestions right now, I know that you will do whatever is possible". In that case, Egwene would have been no worse off than she is now, but she would have given Rand some reason to actually consider her anything other than merely someone who is only looking out for the narrow interests of the AS only.

WinespringBrother
09-08-2011, 08:22 AM
Rand would not bother with trying to hunt BA members, true.

But with Rand running around who knows where (as you point out, it's unclear where he goes or what he does there) he could very easily accidentally run into some BA members. That's what ta'veren is all about: making the unlikely happen all the time. If he had a list then at least he could find out that they were not trustworthy before turning his back on them to walk on.

As for the channelers who could help hunt down the BA: apart from the BT, there are also the WOs (who might or might not cooperate with Egwene if she doesn't tell them what it is about) and the Windfinders (who almost certainly have not heard from Egwene precisely who is on the BA list).

Finally there is the possibility that Rand would have said "tricky problem, I don't have any good suggestions right now, I know that you will do whatever is possible". In that case, Egwene would have been no worse off than she is now, but she would have given Rand some reason to actually consider her anything other than merely someone who is only looking out for the narrow interests of the AS only.

Somehow I get the feeling that even if Rand had all the names/descriptions of the stray Black Ajah, that he might not recognize one to see them, since they know they are hunted and they will presumably know how to disguise themselves.

I'm glad that you agree that Egwene would be better off telling the Wise Ones instead of bothering Rand about this (besides, it's not like the Wise Ones are going to take orders from Rand anyway). They probably aren't suited to hunting Black Ajah but they can certainly secure the ones already in their custody (if they are still around-I think I will see if I can ask Brandon what happened to them). I can't see the Atha'an Miere taking a part in hunting shorebound darkfriends though.

As for Rand's pat on the back for Egwene, I think Eggy is confident enough without it. Maybe it would have changed Rand's attitude but even if it did, given their recent history, it's probably too little, too late and thus not even worth the effort.

FelixPax
09-08-2011, 03:58 PM
And of course, later in the book he succeeds with both Sashalle and Ronaille, too.

Now, very little has been made of these three other than that they've been healed, and we've generally assumed it was done just to show that Flinn could do it and that a woman healed by a man would go back to full strength.

It's shows that both genders need each other, to make the most of their abilities. A counter example, is Nynaeve's healing of Leane and Siuan, versus Nynaeve's healing of Logain. Damer Flinn's healing of Sashalle gives a good clue, that both genders of channelers need each other.

It matter's for Valan Luca storyline in AMoL book, in my judgment. Why? There are clues that Valan Luca was severed in the past. If the Dragon is to help re-seal the Bore, perhaps channeling might be needed? (Other alternatives exist too: Dreaming, abandoning one World for another).


And of course, later in the book he succeeds with both Sashalle and Ronaille, too.

Now, very little has been made of these three other than that they've been healed, and we've generally assumed it was done just to show that Flinn could do it and that a woman healed by a man would go back to full strength.

That's not exactly true, as Sashalle Anderly is acting like an full Aiel Wise One, since being healing by Damer Flinn.

It's a big deal, because Samitsu Tamagowa cannot get Sashalle Anderly to obey Aes Sedai customs. (See CoT book, Prologue "Glimmers of the Pattern".) Why? Because Sashalle Anderly has learned lessons Egwene al'Vere has NOT FULLY LEARNED as an Apprentice. Sashalle Anderly has become a Wise One, meanwhile Egwene al'Vere has not become a Wise One yet.

Sashalle Anderly healing has placed her in an unique position, one of three individuals who are both full Aes Sedai and Wise Ones. The Three Oaths did not make one an Aes Sedai in the Second Age, nor in the early history of the White Tower.


When Sashalle fingers her necklace, she is recalling the difference between Aiel AND Wise Ones… and what her identity is now.


Fingering her Aiel necklace, Sashalle seemed unaware that Samitsu had any grievance, unaware of Samitsu’s scrutiny. “This may be nothing, or it may warrant looking into,” she said, “but Corgaide was only reporting what she heard. If we want to learn anything, we must go and see for ourselves.” Without another word, she gathered her skirts and started out of the apartments, leaving Samitsu only a choice between following or remaining behind. It was intolerable! Yet remaining was unthinkable.


Crossroads of Twilight, Prologue "Glimmers of the Pattern" -- Samitsu point of view; with Sashalle in Cairhien


Sashalle chooses to follow Aiel Customs rather than Aes Sedai customs:


Status gained by Will and Voice (merit trait); rather than Status gained by Level of Strength in Saidar (in-born trait).

Necklaces are a sign of Office or Status, among the Aiel Peoples. It's similar to necklaces among Majors, Governors, Rulers among Randlanders. It's what both Bran al'Vere, Matrim Cauthon necklaces and Corgaide's heavy silvery ring of long keys at her waist all signify: status, office, adulthood, a degree of independence.


What really discomfited her, though, was the woman with her hair in ringlets to her shoulders standing in the middle of the carpet, fists on her hips, a belligerent set to her chin, and a frown narrowing her blue eyes. Sashalle wore the Great Serpent ring, of course, on her right hand, but also an Aiel necklace and bracelet, fat beads of silver and ivory intricately worked and carved, gaudy against her high-necked dress of brown wool, which was plain if fine and well cut. Not crude pieces, certainly, but . . . flamboyant, and hardly the sort a sister would wear. The oddity of that jewelry might hold the key to much, if Samitsu could ever find the reason behind it. The Wise Ones, especially Sorilea, looked at her as if she were a fool for not knowing without asking, and refused to be bothered with answering. They did that all too often. Most especially Sorilea. Samitsu was unused to being thought a fool, and she disliked it immensely.


Crossroads of Twilight, Prologue "Glimmers of the Pattern" -- Samitsu point of view; with Sashalle in Cairhien


However, it occurred to me this morning that here we have three AS, apparently sworn to Rand, none of whom are bound by the Three Oaths, and no-one has realised. It would be terrible if one of them were black, or even if one of them merely decided their loyalties lay in a direction other than Rand (for example, Egwene and the Tower), and did something about it. They're barely mentioned again as far as I can tell from the encyclopedia, but I'm inclined to think that everything happens, for some reason...

Note the Encyclopedia is not up to date, about Samitsu or Sashalle Anderly doings as of Towers of Midnight book IRC.


Who did you think Sorilea will go to, if she has a question to ask about how the White Tower customs operate? If I was her, I'd ask the three Wise Ones, who are also Aes Sedai.


Sashalle Anderly (Red Ajah)
Ronaille Vevanios
Irgain Fatamed


If need be Sorilea can force Egwene al'Vere stubborn hand, in any number of ways.

These three Aes Sedai-Wise One's are akin to the three Aes Sedai-Sea Folk sisters, they each have dirt on the White Tower as an institution.

FelixPax
09-08-2011, 04:18 PM
Sashalle is taking charge in Cairhein over Samitsu. Other than that you are correct that all three are relegated to "spear-carrier" status.

None of the three are named as BA. But Irgain explicitly, and all of the captured TAS from Dumai's Wells, implicitly, were subjected to Verin's interrogation and Suggestion Weave which binds them to ensuring that the Dragon Reborn survives to stand at T'G.

Question is did Damer Flinn's Healing also find and eliminate any weaves Verin's may have placed upon these three Aes Sedai-Wise Ones?

If I was Verin, I'd have wondered if Damer Flinn noticed saidar upon these three Aes Sedai-Wise One during a delving?


More abstractly in terms of metaphors, Sashalle seems to be tied to the ferret metaphor:


Suppressing a triumphant smile, Samitsu moved up beside the Red sister. So Sashalle thought she could simply push her aside and ferret out what was going on, did she? The woman was in for a surprise.

Crossroads of Twilight, Prologue 'Glimmers of the Pattern' -- Samitsu point of view; with Loial, Karldin, Sashalle, Mistress Beldair, Eldrid Methin (Chief Cook, Cairhien Palace)

Acaelus
09-09-2011, 05:33 PM
Somehow I get the feeling that even if Rand had all the names/descriptions of the stray Black Ajah, that he might not recognize one to see them, since they know they are hunted and they will presumably know how to disguise themselves.


This is just a little something I thought I should bring to light in this discussion. Rand no longer has any need for a list of names. After his transformation he clearly states that the time for hiding and manipulating is over.

Somehow his transformation has given him the ability to recognise those who have sworn oaths to the Dark One. Evidence being when he lined up the High Lords and Ladies of Tear and removed the Darkfriends from their midst.

It is an assumption, but I believe it to be a correct one. That we can assume this new "sight" or "ability" will extend to all Darkfriends, including Black Ajah. Therefore the danger posed by sleeper cells of Black Ajah in Rand company taking him by surprise no longer exists. However that does not mean they pose no danger, just that the element of surprise is not a factor any more.

However, Egwene does not know this so her choice not to impart such crucial knowledge on a potentially world ending threat - the possibility of Rand being killed prematurely by Black Ajah Agents - is a very big oversight. The fact that it is unlikely to happen is no excuse. When the fate of your world hangs in the balance you don't play around.

FelixPax
09-10-2011, 01:39 AM
It is an assumption, but I believe it to be a correct one. That we can assume this new "sight" or "ability" will extend to all Darkfriends, including Black Ajah. Therefore the danger posed by sleeper cells of Black Ajah in Rand company taking him by surprise no longer exists. However that does not mean they pose no danger, just that the element of surprise is not a factor any more.

Elayne's own repeated Dreams of being captured by the Shadow's agents, bluntly flies in the face of that bolded assumption.

As does Nynaeve al'Meara fears of being tapped on the shoulder by Moghedien.

Both Elayne, Nynaeve's fears & dreams remain valid. The element of surprise remains a factor. Questions of when, where, how, what--remain open-ended.

Just because one knows Black Ajah exist, does not mean one knows their plans of operation.


Just ask a Linebacker or Safety... do you bite on a run looking play or is that hand-off a set-up for a pass instead? Your time window to decide is very limited....

In WoT terms, Graendal simply waited to act too late to flee Earth for a safer Mirror World. Outcome? Graendal has become Shaidar Haren's newly chosen play toy.

Zombie Sammael
09-10-2011, 04:28 PM
This is just a little something I thought I should bring to light in this discussion. Rand no longer has any need for a list of names. After his transformation he clearly states that the time for hiding and manipulating is over.

Somehow his transformation has given him the ability to recognise those who have sworn oaths to the Dark One. Evidence being when he lined up the High Lords and Ladies of Tear and removed the Darkfriends from their midst.

It is an assumption, but I believe it to be a correct one. That we can assume this new "sight" or "ability" will extend to all Darkfriends, including Black Ajah. Therefore the danger posed by sleeper cells of Black Ajah in Rand company taking him by surprise no longer exists. However that does not mean they pose no danger, just that the element of surprise is not a factor any more.

However, Egwene does not know this so her choice not to impart such crucial knowledge on a potentially world ending threat - the possibility of Rand being killed prematurely by Black Ajah Agents - is a very big oversight. The fact that it is unlikely to happen is no excuse. When the fate of your world hangs in the balance you don't play around.

This isn't actually the case, nor is it a new ability. Rand has demonstrated the power to "see" Darkfriends on two or three separate occasions, but each time he had reasons beyond merely looking at them, or looking into their eyes, to suspect the individuals.

The first time was actually in TSR, with Hadnan Kadere in the Waste. There, he had a suspicion that Kadere was involved with something, since he expected the Forsaken to move against him, and his sight amounted to seeing that Kadere was "dangerous" - but crucially not a Darkfriend, specifically. He even comments to Mat about the importance of the eyes.

The most famous time, of course, is the example you cite involving Weiramon, but even here Rand had other reasons to suspect Weiramon, possibly including a letter from Verin to the effect. Looking into Weiramon's eyes confirmed it, but it was purely confirmatory, not indicative. In any case, it is clear the eyes are important to spotting a DF; both instances involve looking at the eyes heavily, and there is a plethora of other evidence and metaphor throughout the series linking eyes to light and to soul, e.g. "Half the Light of the world to save the world".

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that you (and everyone else) is jumping to conclusions about Egwene. She may already have heard about Elza from any of the sisters allied to Rand, and the fact that she hasn't contacted him regarding any other Darkfriend Aes Sedai in his camp may simply indicate that she is not aware of any. This doesn't necessarily mean there aren't any; Verin herself mentioned that she can't be sure the list is completely comprehensive.

GonzoTheGreat
09-11-2011, 04:27 AM
The first time was actually in TSR, with Hadnan Kadere in the Waste.A firster time was actually in TDR, when he killed the female merchant, her guards and her pet gray man.

She may already have heard about Elza from any of the sisters allied to Rand, and the fact that she hasn't contacted him regarding any other Darkfriend Aes Sedai in his camp may simply indicate that she is not aware of any.That could be the case, but if it is, then that's a rather damning indictment of her own intellect. After all, the following is from her own thoughts:
Each name was like a thorn through Egwene's skin. Dagdara Finchey, who had healed Egwene once when she'd stumbled and twisted her ankle. Zanica, who had taught Egwene lessons and had seemed so pleasant. Larissa Lyndel. Miyasi, for whom Egwene had cracked nuts. Nesita. Nacelle Kayama. Nalaene Forrell, who—like Elza—was bound to Rand. Birlen Pena. Melvara. Chai Rugan. . . .If she truly does not even know that she herself is actually thinking of the fact that Nalaene Forrell is bound to Rand, and thus presumably now and then in a position to spy on him or kill him, then she's more stupid than I give her credit for.

This piece was already quoted on page one of this thread.

Zombie Sammael
09-11-2011, 07:01 AM
This piece was already quoted on page one of this thread.

Yes, I became aware of it after I'd posted. I obviously don't re-read the entire thread or remember every single post when responding to the most recent message. No-one does. I think it's rather disingenuous of you to expect me to.

GonzoTheGreat
09-11-2011, 07:26 AM
I didn't expect you to reread it. I expected you to remember it, as I did. The only reason why I (sort of) reread it was that I wanted to quote it. Otherwise I would've simply referred to it without bothering with rereading.

Solmancer
11-14-2011, 12:55 PM
Random comment (oh hi me not lurking):

Remember Sashalle's letter that was addressed to Galina that Tsutama read to Javindhra and Pevara? It seemed to imply that Sashalle was aware of being freed of the Oaths:

... I look forward to my eventual return to the Tower, where I will retake the Three Oaths to reaffirm my dedication to my Ajah and to the Tower.I'm not sure what it means in the long run, if anything, but I think Sashalle knows what's going on with herself.

MissMeggles
09-27-2012, 10:00 AM
Isn't this all moot now that we know Rand can see DF's? If any of those sworn to him are DF's he can see them now. As shown in ToM when he goes to The Stone and casts out the High Lord and Lady because he knows what they are.

Terez
09-27-2012, 10:19 AM
1. He got a tip in Verin's letter.
2. He can't tell Darkfriends on sight; he has to put them on the spot.

That's why he said "It is you" when Weiramon wouldn't meet his eyes. That confirmed what Verin told him.

MissMeggles
09-27-2012, 10:39 PM
1. He got a tip in Verin's letter.
2. He can't tell Darkfriends on sight; he has to put them on the spot.

That's why he said "It is you" when Weiramon wouldn't meet his eyes. That confirmed what Verin told him.

Ok I can buy he got a tip from Verin, and that he can't see DF's. But, DF's can barely stand to look at him, because of "the terrible light." What's his face is Maradon (yes I know bad Meggles I am lazy and don't want to look up the name) said something like "the light killed me" It would make sense to me that those who are of the dark persuasion would be found out quickly due to that fact alone.

GonzoTheGreat
09-28-2012, 03:15 AM
2. He can't tell Darkfriends on sight; he has to put them on the spot.
Are you sure about this?

He also said (I've removed the bits he didn't say): "I want you to deliver a message for me, to the others of your . . . association. Tell them that they cannot hide among my allies any longer. Tell them that I am no longer blind."

Have we seen any case of a known DF who managed to avoid detection by the DR since then, even though Rand did see him or her?

eht slat meit
09-28-2012, 11:34 AM
Are you sure about this?

I think it's a matter of sorta-kinda; Rand has suddenly picked up on a pattern of behavior, an inability of darkfriends to look him in the face. I would imagine it's not an easy thing to catch, but once you know how it works, it's just a matter of watch and confirm.

LTT was apparently such an arrogant snot that it's not a surprise that Forsaken the likes of Moghedien managed to hide in plain sight from the Dragon, despite the fact that he probably had the same talents then.

Given that the DFs have absolutely no way of knowing how he's picking them out of a crowd, it's an effective strategy to warn them like that.

Terez
09-28-2012, 11:39 AM
Ok I can buy he got a tip from Verin, and that he can't see DF's. But, DF's can barely stand to look at him, because of "the terrible light." What's his face is Maradon (yes I know bad Meggles I am lazy and don't want to look up the name) said something like "the light killed me" It would make sense to me that those who are of the dark persuasion would be found out quickly due to that fact alone.
Maradon was a different situation entirely because Rand was channeling massive amounts of the Power (and because Weiramon's reaction didn't resemble that even slightly).

Are you sure about this?

He also said (I've removed the bits he didn't say): "I want you to deliver a message for me, to the others of your . . . association. Tell them that they cannot hide among my allies any longer. Tell them that I am no longer blind."
I think Rand was overstating his abilities in that instance. He didn't reveal his tip either. Would you?

Have we seen any case of a known DF who managed to avoid detection by the DR since then, even though Rand did see him or her?
No, but we haven't seen any others uncovered either, and it's not very logical to assume that there are no more Darkfriends hiding in his midst at all. No suspicious disappearances. Either there were no major Darkfriends among the other major-ish characters, or Rand can't tell a Darkfriend on sight. It takes a little effort on his part. And there's no reason to believe that, for example, someone like Sorilea would react the same way as a couple of dorks like Weiramon and Anaiyella, either.

eht slat meit
09-28-2012, 11:43 AM
And there's no reason to believe that, for example, someone like Sorilea would react the same way as a couple of dorks like Weiramon and Anaiyella, either.

They might, however, find an excuse to take off for Rhuidean.

GonzoTheGreat
09-28-2012, 11:54 AM
They might, however, find an excuse to take off for Rhuidean.
Sorilea wouldn't do that, would she?

eht slat meit
09-28-2012, 11:57 AM
Sorilea wouldn't do that, would she?

Umm, not sure this is a spoiler thread, so before I respond:


That's still not confirmation, just a point that one of the two "Aiel Traitor" candidates" has conveniently left the building - Bair. That's convenient for Bair if she's a traitor, but it's also convenient for Sorilea for different reasons; it keeps the non-channeling person who can confirm who revealed Cadsuane's secret safely away from Cadsuane's clutches.

Terez
09-28-2012, 12:03 PM
Bair is not really a candidate. There's not a single clue that she's a Darkfriend, and she doesn't have the ability to betray Cadsuane's weave.

eht slat meit
09-28-2012, 12:14 PM
Bair is not really a candidate. There's not a single clue that she's a Darkfriend, and she doesn't have the ability to betray Cadsuane's weave.

The fact that she is one of exactly two people who Cadsuane gave knowledge of the Domination Band's location to before being betrayed is a giant-sized clue. I don't see a bunch of mini clues necessarily being dropped for that to happen; haven't seen anything by RJ promising such clues.

As far as revealing the precise nature of the weaves, she doesn't have to do that. Just reveal where the Band is, and that it's protected, which isn't really hard to guess, thanks to Aes Sedai reliance on gesturing in weaving.

*edit - Devil's advocacy and hedging aside, I do prefer and believe Sorilea is the more likely candidate, but that Bair cannot be completely eliminated. Actually, I would be horribly disappointed by Bair turning out to be the traitor, because she's practically a non-entity, and would feel like my effort in writing the Aiel Traitor theory joyless use of time.

Terez
09-28-2012, 12:29 PM
The location itself was probably easy enough to guess, but the location wasn't enough. They had to have Cadsuane's weave.

GonzoTheGreat
09-29-2012, 02:44 AM
I just realised there's a Portal Stone close to Rhuidean. Would any Trollocs be interested in a sight seeing tour of the town?

Terez
09-29-2012, 05:56 AM
In the middle of the Dying Ground? Not likely...

GonzoTheGreat
09-29-2012, 06:00 AM
In the middle of the Dying Ground? Not likely...
Point. So maybe their tour operator would have to remain a trifle vague about their precise holiday destination.

Crispin's Crispian
10-01-2012, 04:50 PM
I think Rand was overstating his abilities in that instance. He didn't reveal his tip either. Would you?

It's likely Verin's letter contained the names of a few other people, as well. Rand doesn't have to tell them how he knows where to look--he only has to make them think he knows.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
10-04-2012, 07:16 PM
Hold on. Why would being stilled abolish one's oaths to the DO? Aren't there plenty of non-power-wielding people with oaths sworn to the DO?

Is there a Darksider oath rod that I've forgotten about? Is this something so big and important that I'm gonna kick myself when my re-read takes me to it?

GonzoTheGreat
10-05-2012, 03:06 AM
It depends on whether or not those oaths are One Power enhanced.
If there is such an enhancement, then they would be more binding on channelers than on non-channelers, but channelers could then be freed from the oaths by losing the ability to channel.
If there is no such an enhancement, then they could simply decide to change sides ones again, as Ingtar did, and that would be that.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
10-05-2012, 02:25 PM
It depends on whether or not those oaths are One Power enhanced.

Do we have reason to believe that the oaths are enhanced by the One Power? And, whose Power would do the enhancing? Would it be (a) the Power of the person under oath, (b) the Power of the person/DO accepting the oath, or (c) the Power of a ter'angreal?

On that note, can non-channelers be bound by the WT's oath rod? The trickle of Spirit (or whatever) that is needed to make it work does not need to come from the person taking the oaths, right? If so, then a non-channeler would not have the same oath-escape option of stilling... or, could their oaths be released by stilling the person who did the channeling to power the oath rod?

Similarly, what about bonding? I assume that a Warder bond is severed when the AS is stilled, but what about a first-sister bond? If Elayne is stilled, would she still be bonded [bound?] to Aviendha? What about Min? If Elayne & Aviendha were both stilled, would Rand still be bonded to Min?

What about a first-sister bond between non-channelers? You couldn't break that bond by stilling the WO who laid the weave on them, could you? If you tie-off a weave, then release the Source, the weave stays tied, right? So, if you tie off a weave, then get stilled, that weave should still hold, right?

Or, what if...? Or...? Or....?!? Argh! Why does every question lead to so many more questions?!

GonzoTheGreat
10-06-2012, 03:52 AM
Well, from what I remember (haven't bothered to reread the thread now), this is specifically about people who were turned with the 13x13 trick. That works only on people who can channel, so it makes sense that their own power would be involved in it somehow. Thus, it seems at least possible (not certain, granted) that Severing and then Healing them could undo the effects of the 13x13 trick.
I would say that the idea is sound enough to give it a try, though not so sound that I would hold out very much hope of it actually working.

What about Min? If Elayne & Aviendha were both stilled, would Rand still be bonded to Min?
Now that one is a nice question. Let's try it, shall we?

Tree Brother
10-15-2012, 12:19 PM
Do we have reason to believe that the oaths are enhanced by the One Power? And, whose Power would do the enhancing? Would it be (a) the Power of the person under oath, (b) the Power of the person/DO accepting the oath, or (c) the Power of a ter'angreal?

The Oath Rod only works on chanellers. Oaths disappear on severing, and do not come back when severing is healed (See Siuan).

It is too bad Verin did not know this. She could have asked Egwene for stilling. This would not free her from the DO (still have the DF connection) but there would be no Oaths (capitalized) holding her.

GonzoTheGreat
10-16-2012, 03:48 AM
First, it is not clear that Egwene would have done it. Second, it is not clear that Egwene could have done it; stilling an AS requires a certain minimum amount of power, and it isn't certain Egwene, doped up as she was, had enough of it.
Third, it is quite clear that Verin's oath prevented her from taking such an approach. That one is a rather serious problem with the idea, I would say.
'I swear not to betray the Great Lord, to keep my secrets until the hour of my death.'
If she'd just said "still me", Egwene wouldn't have done it. But she could not explain because the oath she wanted to get rid of explicitly prevented her from doing so.

Sarevok
10-16-2012, 06:28 AM
If she'd just said "still me", Egwene wouldn't have done it. But she could not explain because the oath she wanted to get rid of explicitly prevented her from doing so.

She could have said "Stilling me is imperative to save the tower". Presuming Verin was bound by the oaths, this would have meant to Egwene that she actually believed it.

GonzoTheGreat
10-16-2012, 09:58 AM
She could have said "Stilling me is imperative to save the tower". Presuming Verin was bound by the oaths, this would have meant to Egwene that she actually believed it.
In Egwene's Accepted test, Rand told her "killing me is imperative to save the world" and she didn't do that. Is there any indication that she's learned anything since then?

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
10-17-2012, 01:25 PM
The Oath Rod only works on chanellers. Oaths disappear on severing, and do not come back when severing is healed (See Siuan).

It is too bad Verin did not know this. She could have asked Egwene for stilling. This would not free her from the DO (still have the DF connection) but there would be no Oaths (capitalized) holding her.

So, you're saying that there is a Darkside Oath Rod? It's not Verin's WT Oaths that are keeping her from spilling DF secrets.

GonzoTheGreat
10-18-2012, 03:22 AM
So, you're saying that there is a Darkside Oath Rod? It's not Verin's WT Oaths that are keeping her from spilling DF secrets.
No there isn't, and yes they were (and weren't).
The oath that prevented that spilling was sworn on the standard White Tower Oath Rod. But it wasn't the WT Oaths which did this, it was the BA Oaths which she'd sworn to replace the WT ones. So if she had been able to remove those BA Oaths, then she would have been able to blab.

On the other hand, a DF who has actually dedicated him or her self to the Shadow, has a connection to the DO whether or not that person can channel. The clearest evidence for this comes from Padan Fain, who can actually see the marks of this. That connection doesn't prevent the DF from spilling the beans on Shadow plots, but it does provide the Shadow a way of finding the bean spiller and dispensing chastisement.

FelixPax
10-30-2012, 11:38 AM
But it wasn't the WT Oaths which did this, it was the BA Oaths which she'd sworn to replace the WT ones. So if she had been able to remove those BA Oaths, then she would have been able to blab.

*If* Verin Sedai have become an experienced Dreamwalker, she could have fully removed the Black Ajah Oaths herself.

How?

Dream of an Oath Rod as being 'real', as being solid. Then renounce the Black Ajah Oaths, as Talene Minly once did.

Egwene al'Vere did a similar thing, in the The Dragon Reborn book, upon stilling Amico Nagoyin in a Dream. Egwene choose to keep Amico stilled, yet Egwene choose to undo all the changes to physical objects done in the Dream.

Whereas Nynaeve al'Meara and Elayne Trakand each can permanent build castles in the sky and keep it that way, if they choose to. It's one of major keys to how 'A Memory of Light' will unfold.

Huh?

Ditch this Nightmare. Create a new Dream World anew. From what? Memory. Desire.


On the other hand, a DF who has actually dedicated him or her self to the Shadow, has a connection to the DO whether or not that person can channel. ding the bean spiller and dispensing chastisement.

Yes. However, that link to the Dark One can be fully removed. Just as the taint on the mind, has been removed from multiple Asha'man by Nynaeve al'Meara previously.

FelixPax
10-30-2012, 11:51 AM
I just realised there's a Portal Stone close to Rhuidean. Would any Trollocs be interested in a sight seeing tour of the town?

Actually there's repeated foreshadowing, that Shadowspawn will visit Rhuidean in AMoL book. Who is foretold to see this? Moiraine. Matrim Cauthon.


Who among the Chosen knows where Rhuidean is?

Demandred.
Moghedien.
Lanfear.
Osan'gar. (He's died twice before. Had knowledge of Rhuidean, because of his role in Shara earlier.)
Asmodean. (Now reborn once again as a Chosen named "Young Asmodean", who's to guide the true Dragon Reborn in A Memory of Light.)
Rand al'Thor/Moridin. (Moridin can see through Rand's eyes and hear what is said too. Rand and Moridin possess the same mind. Each is the opposite face of the other.)

Cortar
10-30-2012, 03:04 PM
Actually there's repeated foreshadowing, that Shadowspawn will visit Rhuidean in AMoL book. Who is foretold to see this? Moiraine. Matrim Cauthon.


Who among the Chosen knows where Rhuidean is?

Demandred.
Moghedien.
Lanfear.
Osan'gar. (He's died twice before. Had knowledge of Rhuidean, because of his role in Shara earlier.)
Asmodean. (Now reborn once again as a Chosen named "Young Asmodean", who's to guide the true Dragon Reborn in A Memory of Light.)
Rand al'Thor/Moridin. (Moridin can see through Rand's eyes and hear what is said too. Rand and Moridin possess the same mind. Each is the opposite face of the other.)


But wait, how will Luca get to Rhuiden in time to save it? He is still in Ebou Dar as of chapter 7 in AMoL (where Matt is)

I think Luca will stay away from there to draw attention away from the newly founded city.