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Zombie Sammael
09-05-2011, 05:37 PM
Now, friends don't let friends read Goodkind, so I'm trying to persuade him onto WOT. I've told him it's derivative and that the politics are the politics of madness. What else should I say? I know focusing on the merits of WOT is probably a better way to persuade someone than to trash something they like, so I'd look more for that sort of praise, but it obviously needs to be a bit comparative.

PS I'm not trying to start a debate about the merits of Goodkind and Sword of Truth, nor is it my intention purely to trash him, for the Goodkind fans. But this is Theoryland; we would debate the sun rising in the East if Terez had quotes.

Terez
09-05-2011, 06:00 PM
Apparently you aren't influential enough with your friends. One of my friends told me he was reading Goodkind (he'd only started the first book). I told him it sucked, and he stopped reading it. Simple as that.

Zombie Sammael
09-05-2011, 06:02 PM
Apparently you aren't influential enough with your friends. One of my friends told me he was reading Goodkind (he'd only started the first book). I told him it sucked, and he stopped reading it. Simple as that.

It's an old friend, not someone I'm presently good friends with, but reconnecting with. Normally my powers are reasonably strong.

Terez
09-05-2011, 06:17 PM
Show your friend some of his interviews. That might do the trick.

Davian93
09-05-2011, 09:46 PM
If a friend of mine said that, I'd blind them and blow out their eardrums and consider it a favor.

confused at birth
09-05-2011, 10:43 PM
i have never heard of Goodkind before so i will assume its crap.:confused:

i have got 3 friends to read WoT so far, how does that rank my friend control powers?:cool:

Daekyras
09-06-2011, 07:17 AM
i have never heard of Goodkind before so i will assume its crap.:confused:

i have got 3 friends to read WoT so far, how does that rank my friend control powers?:cool:

Not good enough. Convince more!

Back on track, kinda, you could try saying this:

There are very few "new" ideas. Every fantasy novel he reads will in some way thread over themes, story arcs and characters that he has read before. And I'm not just talking standard fantasy arcs either.

However, there is a big difference in the style and standard of writing. Jordan writes at an elevated level in comparison to most of his peers. He writes with a subtle storytelling hand and yet maintains a panache for describing major plots and events in great detail yet keeping them immediate. His writing skill is aking to that of a great painter.

Goodkind writes with the subtlety and panache of a 300lb silverback that has a raging hard on trying to paint using a broken stick onto a paint by numbers board. He is the actual defintion of derivative and has, seemingly, a love of sexual torture.

That is all.
Should do the trick.

maacaroni
09-07-2011, 06:42 AM
Tell him that if he reads it he might get a raptor gaze and an urge to kick children in the face.

I'll be fair, he can write a good action scene, but with his tea party ultra-libertarian objectivist preaching, it is diluted to such a degree that all you can do is grit your teeth.

the_collective
09-08-2011, 07:16 PM
Tell him that if he reads it he might get a raptor gaze and an urge to kick children in the face.

THIS.

All kidding aside, I've read through both entire series' (excepting of course AMoL) and while I don't agree with Goodkind's politics, and certainly do agree that he's an asshole by any definition of the word, there are several things that I did like about the Goodkind books. I'd be a fool to go into any of that here, of course, as clearly I'm in the minority.

Have you considered letting him stop reading it of his own accord? I certainly did the first time I tried to read it (stopped after reading book 4 or 5). It took an effort of will to give it a second chance because of all the bias I'd built up against it inside my head (not to mention the bias against it that covers the walls of this place and many reputable sites like it).

Point is: it's crap and this friend of yours will see that eventually and thank you for trying to dissuade them in the first place. Perhaps making snide jokes about the series during the next few weeks/months as he reads will point out exactly how silly it is, but he may just have to find out for himself.

On second thought, how about we just assume that this person will in fact stop reading it at some point before he reaches the end simply because the series sucks. Does anyone want to take some bets on how many books he'll get through before independently reaching this decision?

GonzoTheGreat
09-09-2011, 05:00 AM
Ah, but perhaps you could lure him into reading it all by promising (quite honestly) that while the series gets less good the whole time, the actual ending surpasses that by a wide margin.
In order to solve the problem he's been building up the whole series, Goodkind needs to totally violate his entire philosophy of individual responsibility. The fun bit is that he does not even seem to notice it himself.

Gilshalos Sedai
03-08-2012, 01:48 PM
Now, friends don't let friends read Goodkind, so I'm trying to persuade him onto WOT. I've told him it's derivative and that the politics are the politics of madness. What else should I say? I know focusing on the merits of WOT is probably a better way to persuade someone than to trash something they like, so I'd look more for that sort of praise, but it obviously needs to be a bit comparative.

PS I'm not trying to start a debate about the merits of Goodkind and Sword of Truth, nor is it my intention purely to trash him, for the Goodkind fans. But this is Theoryland; we would debate the sun rising in the East if Terez had quotes.

Quite easy: tell him Goodkind deludes himself into thinking he's the Ayn Rand of Fantasy who doesn't write fantasy, but has an S & M fetish.

His writing is clunky and derivative and I kept hoping it would get better... but I made it to book 8 and it didn't.

Mort
03-08-2012, 11:52 PM
Ah, but perhaps you could lure him into reading it all by promising (quite honestly) that while the series gets less good the whole time, the actual ending surpasses that by a wide margin.
In order to solve the problem he's been building up the whole series, Goodkind needs to totally violate his entire philosophy of individual responsibility. The fun bit is that he does not even seem to notice it himself.

So the series is actually over? I havn't been following it since I stopped reading it around book 4 or 5. How did it end by the way? No harm in telling, since it's a shit series anyway.

Maybe the right course here is actually to tell EVERYONE in the whole WORLD how it ends, so no one bothers reading it since the ending is spoiled/liberated ?

How was the series Ayn Randian though? Can't say I remember it had those, should I say, qualities? Although, I had never heard of Ayn Rand when I first read the series.

eht slat meit
03-09-2012, 12:45 AM
So the series is actually over? I havn't been following it since I stopped reading it around book 4 or 5. How did it end by the way? No harm in telling, since it's a shit series anyway.

I don't know if anyone actually reads it, so I'm not going to drop spoilers. However, the main series seemingly ended at 'Confessor' with a rather cheap plot device, then segued into a spin-off book called 'Law of Nines' (the rest of the books look good by comparison), then restarted again with 'The Omen Machine.'

Pretty clear that he's going to keep on going with it. If he'd drop the political speechifying, I'd enjoy the books a great deal more.

Yeah, guilty pleasure here - I -like- the fantasy elements of Goodkind's books and there's some decent storytelling.

If only Richard and Nicci would shut the hell up.

Whizbang
10-03-2012, 04:25 PM
Point him towards Atlas Shrugged and say "Goodkind is a firm believer in this, and uses his fantasy series to sell people on these philosphies".

Take out all of the Ayn Rand crap and you get the start of a pretty interesting fantasy series, but you really need a different set of main characters. Zedd was pretty cool, but got boring in the latter half of the series. Nicci was a waste of a great villain. Jangang was boring, once we realized the bond stopped his power. Jangang vs Richard in a cage match puts Richard on top every time. This is not a good thing. Richard only worked as an underdog because he wasn't a trained wizard, but then throw in the Dues Ex Machina of his gift working through need, and you got yourself an always handy escape route.

And while I didn't see the Sword of Truth being the key for the Boxes of Ordin, I did see it being the key to the end of the war. The series is called "The Sword of Truth", and the thing was mostly useless throughout. Sure, it could cut through anything and made him an expert fighter, but after the first two books, that was really not that impressive. In Stone of Tears, one of the Sisters of the Dark had a similar weapon, and it didn't take the lives of 100 wizards with positive and subtractive magic, neither. The sword turning white was the only thing special about it, and that was mostly useless right up until the end. I just kept waiting for the big twist that would make it central to everything.

Nicholas the Slide was pretty cool. "The Beast" was also great, though it would've been nice to have a more heated battle with it in the underworld. Richard just says "Oh, it's you again. Alright. Here, eat some additive magic." Boom. Done. No suspense, no frantic chase through the underworld as Richard throws everything he can think of at it. Just, plop! no more Beast.

Darken Rahl needed to live through a few more books. Or at least the Gost-Darken should've been used more than just in the Stone of Tears.

And what about Rachel, damnit? She's a "Pebble in the Pond" too. When do we get to see her kick ass? Being raised by Chase has got to make her pretty cool. Give me some of that, rather than more Richard and Kahlan. Richard reached the height of his power in Confessor. Goodkind had to make him take a step back to make him vulnerable again in The Omen Machine. Richard even went as far as knee-jerk reactions to the machine and trying to destroy it, after all his epiphanies about cold logic and reason ruling passion and emotion. Just... Stop. Give me someone else to read about.

Sancus
01-09-2013, 02:21 AM
I've always thought that Scott Bakker's stuff is sort of "Goodkind done right" in the sense that there is a ton of philosophy in The Prince of Nothing and The Aspect-Emperor, but it's handled in a way that it enhances the story rather than using the story as a weapon to bludgeon you over the head with monologues about the author's favourite beliefs.

I'd point someone at Bakker's work if they were interested in philosophy, of course, if they're just interested in a sword and sorcery yarn, honestly Sword of Truth is totally fine for that, at least the first few books worth. IMO it's only in the later novels that he really gets exceptionally preachy and it seems to become the central purpose of the series...

GonzoTheGreat
01-09-2013, 05:58 AM
I'd point someone at Bakker's work if they were interested in philosophy, of course, if they're just interested in a sword and sorcery yarn, honestly Sword of Truth is totally fine for that, at least the first few books worth. IMO it's only in the later novels that he really gets exceptionally preachy and it seems to become the central purpose of the series...
Then again, in the conclusion of the very last book he completely and utterly dumps all of his philosophy, going back to pure socialism instead. So there's that.

Ieyasu
01-10-2013, 04:44 PM
Bad story is bad...

Especially when the author swears up and down that his high fantasy series isn't actually fantasy...

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2013, 05:20 AM
Especially when the author swears up and down that his high fantasy series isn't actually fantasy...
Well, to be fair to him, it seems quite possible that his contribution (whatever that was, once you've stripped out everything he nicked from others) isn't fantasy at all.