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WinespringBrother
09-06-2011, 10:19 AM
To recap the concept:

First, pop over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5669) for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

This week, we're discussing Mazrim Taim, aka the M'hael of the Black Tower.

Mazrim Taim has been a major source of conflict so far, declaring himself as a False Dragon, and battling Davram Bashere and the armies of Saldaea successfully until his fall and capture after the battle of Falme when the true Dragon Reborn was declared. He was then taken to be gentled, but managed to escape and turned up in Andor, proclaiming his allegiance to Rand, and becoming at the time his right-hand man in terms of setting up his school/safe haven for doomed male channelers. However, despite his rescue of Rand at Dumai's Wells, and his unquestioned success at creating the Black Tower and recruiting channelers and generally exceeding Rand's expectations by far, his loyalties have come into question, with Taim's attempts on Rand's life, Taim's seconds all being proven darkfriends, and general shady doings at the Black Tower.

So given that the long-standing Taimendred theory was soundly debunked by the Creator, what is Taim's real deal? Is he a run-of-the-mill darkfriend, greedy for power? Did he turn to the Shadow to gain protection from the Taint and inevitable madness? Is he, as some speculate, a remnant from the Age of Legends? Has he been unjustly smeared by Logain as a darkfriend?

We know that Rand has finally turned his attention to the Black Tower, sending Naeff there on an undercover mission and bringing the Black Tower timeline current with the main story line. What will Naeff find? Did Rand act too late?

And most importantly, who is the real Mazrim Taim?

GonzoTheGreat
09-06-2011, 10:38 AM
I think that Taim was originally just a fairly standard minor nobleman who just happened to be able to channel. He wasn't all that good with a sword, which of course proved to him that the sword was not much good anyway.
Then he declared himself the DR, probably because he believed that was the best way to power available for him, once he knew he could channel.
After he was captured, he was "rescued" by the Black Ajah, and given an offer he couldn't reject.

Davian93
09-06-2011, 10:41 AM
I think he turned (or was turned) sometime between showing up in Camelyn and Dumai's Wells.

Zombie Sammael
09-06-2011, 10:56 AM
I'm not a hundred percent convinced the man we now know as Mazrim Taim actually is Mazrim Taim, though I can merely speculate as to his true identity. The major evidence for this is Bashere's failure to recognise him when they met in Caemlyn. Of course, we also have the RJ quote about him being "ridden hard and put away wet" and his own statement that he shaved, but still....

Some speculate that Mazrim Taim, if that is indeed who he is, may still have ties to Demandred despite not actually being him. They account for many of his strange statements and mannerisms with this. One thing is for sure; Mazrim Taim is a man of many mysteries, mysteries that no-one has yet managed to convincingly unravel.

David Selig
09-06-2011, 11:53 AM
I think that Taim was originally just a fairly standard minor nobleman who just happened to be able to channel. He wasn't all that good with a sword, which of course proved to him that the sword was not much good anyway.
Then he declared himself the DR, probably because he believed that was the best way to power available for him, once he knew he could channel.
After he was captured, he was "rescued" by the Black Ajah, and given an offer he couldn't reject.
Was he really rescued by the BA? The Black Ajah oaths would've prevented Joiya from tellin the Supergirls that there was such a plan if it was true.

IMO he was Darkfriend from the start of career as a False Dragon, probably trained by Ishy.

GonzoTheGreat
09-06-2011, 12:20 PM
Was he really rescued by the BA? The Black Ajah oaths would've prevented Joiya from tellin the Supergirls that there was such a plan if it was true.Not quite. She would be prevented from telling about it if she had known about it.
What I think happened is that she made up a likely sounding lie, and that some other BA members came up with more or less the same plan independently.

See it as some low level foretelling.
She predicted that Taim would be sprung free (by the BA). He was sprung free.
She predicted that Taim would be set up to commit atrocities in Rand's name. That's what he is going to do.

jeck
09-06-2011, 12:34 PM
one problem with just a dreadlord is his strength.
Do we even know any male channeler except rand and the forsaken who are even close to him in strength?
And we are not even sure we've seen him using 100% of his power.

From Lord of Chaos chapter 3.

"This seems to genuinely alarm Taim, and Rand abruptly asks how strong he is, and orders him to seize saidin, as much as he can hold. Taim obeys, and Rand senses that it is not much less than he himself could hold unaided."

Im not sure if Rand developed how much saidin he can hold through the books but shouldnt this mean Taim is on the same level as Nynaeve or maybe even stronger?

I remember reading that when he was a false dragon they said he was strong but was it really this strong? if not + the fact that Bashere failed to recognise could imply that he isnt the original mazrim. But on the same time I have a hard time thinking he's Moridin.

Why does Mazrim become angry when Rand chose Dashiva as one of his "bodyguards"? If he was below Osan'gar in rank he should just be quite, I mean this is probably exactly what Osan'gar wants.

When Taim order the murder attempt on Rand why did Osan'gar obey if he's below him?

It almost feels like Taim is above Osan'gar in rank(I know there's no evidence for that but)

Something is really strange about him,

Could he be like a proxy to Moridin, that gains a lot of credits for his work, so that he has worked his way up beyond some of the forsaken like Osan'gar?

I cant wait to find everything out in AMoL.

Enigma
09-06-2011, 05:29 PM
Taim does not seem to know that Dashiva is one of the forsaken. He was not included in the orders by Taim to try to kill Rand and Taim was surprised when he learned of his involvement.

We know that Taim is a darkfriend that is not to say that he is close friend and confident to who ever his shadow handler is. The forsaken look down on the modern age channelers, just look at how Mesaana treated the head of the Black Ajah.

Taim wanted one of his cronies with Rand, someone who's first loyalty would be to Taim and would keep him informed what Rand was up to. Dashiva did not fit that description so Taim wanted him off bodyguard duty.

The guy is an asshole no doubt about it but was I the only one who smiled when Elayne tried to put him in his place, that of a commoner in the presence of the daughter heir and Aes Sedai and he was totally unimpresed?

He strikes me as a man of strong will, knows exactly how powerful he is and does not back down often. Also RJ said he was paranoid but then again it seems no one likes him so he had reason to be paranoid.

Its too bad he seems to have been bad from the start. Otherwise it would have been quite reasonable that he was pissed at Rand. Here he is a forsaken class channeler who came to help, he built up the Black Tower in a short few months to become a group that both the White Tower and the Seanchan fear. Rand is an absentee landlord who shows up a barehandful of times but never bothers to include Taim in his plans and feels free to mess with his recruitment and training schedules by taking men off on his raids/battles. Then to top it all the interloper Logain shows up who has done nothing for the dragon yet Rand shows him favour. Taim would have had grounds for being anoyed.

I would love to see him interact with some of the forsaken, for them to try to put him in his place and for Taim to call their bluff.

The Unreasoner
09-06-2011, 06:00 PM
I would really love it if Taim isn't a DF, but rather is like Masema or Niall. Or like I wished the case was with Weiramon.

The theoryette goes like this:
Rand thinks Taim held off the madness. Rand was mistaken. Taim is so far under it's a wonder he can even function. He legitimately thinks he is the Dragon, and thinks that he is serving the Light. He sees Rand as an impostor/agent of the Shadow, and went 'undercover' in a sense. He believes that training superweapons and subverting Rand's authority serves the Light. His intention is to kill the evil False Dragon Rand at any opportunity, and then assume Rand's temporal power. He thinks he is quite clever, letting the False Dragon conquer territories for him. Perhaps there is a Mordeth element as well: using dark powers (or even the True Power) with the intent to serve the Light. Or perhaps his sanity is so far gone that he doesn't recognize forced turnings for what they are, or sees the TP as a power source designated by the Creator as the Dragon's property. Perhaps he thinks the TP is what gives the Dragon the unique powers to defeat the DO. The actual access to the TP (if he has it) might have been given to him by Ishamael just to mess him up even more. Or the access was granted along with Lanfear doing a Masema-like 'revelation' to push Taim further down a certain path.

jeck
09-06-2011, 08:03 PM
Taim does not seem to know that Dashiva is one of the forsaken.

I think you're wrong, taim does clearly not want Dashiva around him, he already has loyal people around Rand. And why doesnt he protest anything against Damer Flinn etc.?


"“I forget nothing, Aes Sedai,” Rand said coldly. “I said six could come, but I count nine. I said you would be on an equal footing with the Tower emissaries, and for bringing nine, you will be. They are on their knees, Aes Sedai. Kneel!”

Coldly serene faces stared back at him. He felt Asha’man readying shields of Spirit. Defiance grew on Kiruna’s face, on Bera’s, on others. Two dozen black-coated men made a ring around Rand and the Aes Sedai.

Taim appeared as close to a smile as Rand had ever seen him. “Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon,” he said softly, “or you will be knelt.”"

The reason for this smile is first of all Taim doesnt like Aes Sedai secondly imo I think Taim was commanded to save Rand by Demandred at this time.
(which had probably planned this kidnap + save with Mesaana to saw chaos) and therefor Taim smileyed because he probably was told of the plan or just puzzled it out.

Sammael thinks is aCoS that Demmandred had something to do with the kidnap aswell IIRC.

Lupusdeusest
09-06-2011, 08:46 PM
The theoryette goes like this:
Rand thinks Taim held off the madness. Rand was mistaken. Taim is so far under it's a wonder he can even function. He legitimately thinks he is the Dragon, and thinks that he is serving the Light. He sees Rand as an impostor/agent of the Shadow, and went 'undercover' in a sense. He believes that training superweapons and subverting Rand's authority serves the Light. His intention is to kill the evil False Dragon Rand at any opportunity, and then assume Rand's temporal power. He thinks he is quite clever, letting the False Dragon conquer territories for him. Perhaps there is a Mordeth element as well: using dark powers (or even the True Power) with the intent to serve the Light. Or perhaps his sanity is so far gone that he doesn't recognize forced turnings for what they are, or sees the TP as a power source designated by the Creator as the Dragon's property. Perhaps he thinks the TP is what gives the Dragon the unique powers to defeat the DO. The actual access to the TP (if he has it) might have been given to him by Ishamael just to mess him up even more. Or the access was granted along with Lanfear doing a Masema-like 'revelation' to push Taim further down a certain path.

That is cool! It wears sunglasses!
Sorry, a little delirious atm, so I am even less coherent than usual. hehe

Juan
09-07-2011, 04:47 AM
Yeah I think the Shadow had to do with Rand's kidnapping as a way to try and break him and possibly then turn him o the Shadow.'

I also thought it'd be funny if Taim wasn't a DF, but he definitely is one and with access to the True power at that. He has that same dark aura of blackbess you can sort of see when not looking at it directly that people who often use the true power have.

And to me it's pretty weird how "everyone" is just a step below Rand, or perhaps better said is slightly weaker. Well not everyone, but many. There's Logain, Taim, Alivia of whom we've read in the actual series. But the. If you read the BWB, Demandred, Aginor, Lanfear, and probably a few others are also just slightly weaker than LTT. I don't remember if Ishy is as strong or just slightly weaker. But I'll expand on this on a separate thread later on.

Enigma
09-07-2011, 09:41 AM
I think you're wrong, taim does clearly not want Dashiva around him, he already has loyal people around Rand. And why doesnt he protest anything against Damer Flinn etc.?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure I follow, you think that Taim does not want Dashiva around Taim or Rand? Taim was not trying to offload Dashiva on Rand, in fact he tried to not have him assigned to Rand's guard. The reason I figure is that Taim has no problem with who is on the guard as long as at least one of them is loyal to Taim. If he could have all the Guard loyal to him, that would be great but one is all he needs to be close to Rand and keep Taim informed on what is happening in Rand's inner circle.

"“I forget nothing, Aes Sedai,” Rand said coldly. “I said six could come, but I count nine. I said you would be on an equal footing with the Tower emissaries, and for bringing nine, you will be. They are on their knees, Aes Sedai. Kneel!”

Coldly serene faces stared back at him. He felt Asha’man readying shields of Spirit. Defiance grew on Kiruna’s face, on Bera’s, on others. Two dozen black-coated men made a ring around Rand and the Aes Sedai.

Taim appeared as close to a smile as Rand had ever seen him. “Kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon,” he said softly, “or you will be knelt.”"

The reason for this smile is first of all Taim doesnt like Aes Sedai secondly imo I think Taim was commanded to save Rand by Demandred at this time.
(which had probably planned this kidnap + save with Mesaana to saw chaos) and therefor Taim smileyed because he probably was told of the plan or just puzzled it out.

I think that Taim has at least two reasons to be happy here, hence the almost smile. First he does not like Aes Sedai. What man who could channel would. Taim knows what its like to have them come at him an a battle, presumably with a circle of 13 and take him prisoner. Yes I know the visions of Rand knocked him off his horse etc but when he was down the AS scooped him up.

Seconly it strengthens Taim's position as effective leader of the BT if there is open war between the White Tower and Rand. That has the simple result of making sure that the only organised channeling group Rand can expect help from is the Asha'man.

If Rand and the Aes Sedai are friendly Taim and his men (as he sees it) are not the only game in town. Rand is not dependant on the BT.

Add those together and he has every reason to be happy. He may also have had orders to keep Rand safe but RJ was asked about why/how Taim showed up to save Rand and he specifically said that Taim was paranoid and showed up at the palace looking for Rand, found him missing, found the Aes Sedai gone and found that a lot of Rand's closes supporters were also gone. Taim sussed that something was up and went hunting for Rand, found out what had happened then called in backup. There was no mention of order from the Shadow. That does not rule out those orders of course but it is suggestive that Taim acted on his own.

Sammael thinks is aCoS that Demmandred had something to do with the kidnap aswell IIRC.

He has every reason to. Mesaana always acted with Semirhage and Demandred. They were a pacgage deal for most of the time. If the Tower AS kidnap Rand that points to Mesaana, and its not too much of a stretch for Sammael to think that she had Demandred backing her up. Mesaana does not seem to have moggy's reputation among the forsaken but some of the later pov from the forsaken make it clear that she is considered the weaker of the partnership comming after Demandred & Semirhage.

Weiramon
09-07-2011, 02:17 PM
Here he is a forsaken class channeler who came to help, he built up the Black Tower in a short few months to become a group that both the White Tower and the Seanchan fear. Rand is an absentee landlord who shows up a barehandful of times but never bothers to include Taim in his plans and feels free to mess with his recruitment and training schedules by taking men off on his raids/battles. Then to top it all the interloper Logain shows up who has done nothing for the dragon yet Rand shows him favour. Taim would have had grounds for being anoyed.



Burn my eyes, a man can be most loyal to the Lord Dragon and carry out his will, and still suffer belittlement and accusations of betrayal.


Clearly no one sworn to the . . . Dark One . . . would present one of the seven seals to the Lord Dragon - one might as well suggest the ridiculous notion that the Shadow was not fighting this war in the manner many think, and wanted the Lord Dragon to break the seals.

The Unreasoner
09-07-2011, 10:49 PM
Burn my eyes, a man can be most loyal to the Lord Dragon and carry out his will, and still suffer belittlement and accusations of betrayal.

This...
Sometimes I wonder why Terez sees red herrings with such frequency, but in cases like this I understand. A dismissal of evidence because it supports dull and mundane storylines. Taim appears to be a darkfriend, Weiramon seemed to serve the shadow, but neither storyline is particularly satisfying.

FelixPax
09-08-2011, 11:27 AM
And most importantly, who is the real Mazrim Taim?


A False Dragon, whom Joiya directly and indirectly refers to, when confessing plans of the Shadow know to her.


Mazrim Taim's depredations are to be blamed upon Rand al'Thor. Taim's very existence, his claims, is a clue that Rand al'Thor is himself a False Dragon.


Many HCFF's at Theoryland have discounted the major points Joiya's confession about Mazrim Taim, Rand al'Thor, and the Shadow's Plans know to her.


Granted Joiya's confession, like Verin's later to Egwene al'Vere in 'The Gathering Storm' (book) is subject to the limitations of the Oaths given to Black Ajah. Meaning Joiya can use Liandrin's name in place of other members of the Shadow, because Egwene and Nynaeve already know Liandrin is a B.A. In other words, Joiya isn't telling a secret completely accurately. Yet the general gist of her confession is accurate.


Joiya indirectly confesses that one of the Shadow's Plans is to pull the Borderlander's Rulers, towards Rand al'Thor. Why? Divide and Conquer Tactics.

Who didn't hear this confession? Elayne. Who did hear it? Aviendha. Aviendha, who should have figured this puzzle out in Andor, when the Borderlander's armies came southward looking for the Dragon Reborn. :rolleyes:


What's also curious about Joiya's confession, is how she agrees with the claim Rand al'Thor is the Dragon Reborn, when Mazrim Taim is known to be a False Dragon or imposter to her. There seems to be a tension or paradox on this subject. Nynaeve's publicly states Rand is the Dragon Reborn, yet privately doubts. Joiya publicly states Rand is the Dragon Reborn, yet acknowledges Mazrim Taim is a known False Dragon.

How does one squarely Joiya's claim to Verin's claim? One Black Ajah claim to another Black Ajah murmuring? What does Verin know of Mazrim Taim?


Verin: Rand al'Thor proclaimed himself

“Most importantly, then, Rand al’Thor has proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn.”

Siuan felt a tightness loosen in her chest. “I hoped it was he,” she said softly. “I have had reports from women who could only tell what they had heard, and rumors by the score come with every trader’s boat and merchant’s wagon, but I could not be sure.” She took a deep breath. “Yet I think I can name the day it happened. Did you know the two false Dragons no longer trouble the world?”

“I had not heard, Mother. That is good news.”

“Yes. Mazrim Taim is in the hands of our sisters in Saldaea, and the poor fellow in Haddon Mirk, the Light have pity on his soul, was taken by the Tairens and executed on the spot. No one even seems to know what his name was. Both were taken on the same day and, according to rumor, under the same circumstances. They were in battle, and winning, when suddenly a great light flashed in the sky, and a vision appeared, just for an instant. There are a dozen different versions of what it was, but in both cases the result was exactly the same. The false Dragon’s horse reared up and threw him. He was knocked unconscious, and his followers cried out that he was dead, and fled the field, and he was taken. Some of my reports speak of visions in the sky at Falme. I’ll wager a gold mark to a week-old delta perch that was the instant Rand al’Thor proclaimed himself.”

“The true Dragon has been Reborn,” Verin said almost to herself, “and so the Pattern has no room for false Dragons anymore. We have loosed the Dragon Reborn on the world. The Light have mercy on us.”


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 12 "The Amyrlin Seat" -- Siuan point of view; with Verin in Tar Valon


How certain is Verin? How certain is Joiya?


Joiya's Confession

“Let us see if Joiya still tells the same tale, too.” Even so, she had to take herself in hand before she could unravel the flows of Air woven around the Darkfriend.

Joiya must have been stiff from standing so still for so long, but she turned smoothly to face them. The sweat beading her forehead could not diminish her dignity and presence, any more than her drab, rough dress lessened the sense of her being there by choice. She was a handsome woman with something motherly about her face despite its ageless smoothness, something comforting. But the dark eyes set in that face made a hawk’s look kind. She smiled at them, a smile that never reached those eyes. “The Light illumine you. May the hand of the Creator shelter you.”

“I will not hear that out of you.” Nynaeve’s voice was quiet and calm, but she tossed her braid over her shoulder and gripped the end in her fist, the way she did when angry or uneasy. Egwene did not think she was uneasy; Joiya did not seem to make Nynaeve’s skin crawl as she did Egwene’s.

“I have repented my sins,” Joiya said smoothly. “The Dragon is Reborn, and he holds Callandor. The Prophecies are fulfilled. The Dark One must fail. I can see that, now. My repentance is real. No one can walk so long in the Shadow that she cannot come again to the Light.”

Nynaeve’s face had grown darker by the word. Egwene was sure she was furious enough to channel now, but if she did it would probably be to strangle Joiya. Egwene did not believe Joiya’s repentance any more than Nynaeve, of course, but the woman’s information might be real. Joiya was quite capable of a cold decision to go over to what she believed would be the winning side. Or she might only be buying time, lying in hope of rescue.

Lies should not have been possible for an Aes Sedai, even one who had lost all right to the name, not outright lies. The very first of the Three Oaths, taken with the Oath Rod in hand, should have seen to that. But whatever oaths to the Dark One were sworn on joining the Black Ajah, they seemed to sever all Three Oaths.

Well. The Amyrlin had sent them out to hunt the Black Ajah, to hunt Liandrin and the other twelve who had done murder and fled the Tower. And all they had to go on now was what these two could, or would, tell them.

“Give us your tale again,” Egwene commanded. “Use different words, this time. I am tired of listening to memorized stories.” If she was lying, there was more chance she would trip herself up telling it differently. “We will hear you out.” That was for Nynaeve’s benefit; she gave a loud sniff, then a curt nod.

Joiya shrugged. “As you wish. Let me see. Different words. The false Dragon, Mazrim Taim, who was captured in Saldaea, can channel with incredible strength. Perhaps as much as Rand al’Thor, or nearly so, if the reports can be believed. Before he can be brought to Tar Valon and gentled, Liandrin means to break him free. He will be proclaimed as the Dragon Reborn, his name given as Rand al’Thor, and then he will be set to destruction on such a scale as the world has not seen since the War of the Hundred Years.”

“That is impossible,” Nynaeve broke in. “The Pattern will not accept a false Dragon, not now that Rand has proclaimed himself.”

Egwene sighed. They had had this out before, but Nynaeve always argued the point. She was not sure Nynaeve really believed that Rand was the Dragon Reborn, no matter what she said, no matter the Prophecies and Callandor and the fall of the Stone. Nynaeve was just enough older than he to have looked after him when he was a child, just as she had after Egwene. He was an Emond’s Fielder, and Nynaeve still saw her first duty as protecting the people of Emond’s Field.

“Is that what Moiraine told you?” Joiya asked with a touch of contempt. “Moiraine has spent little time in the Tower since she was raised, and not much more with her sisters anywhere. I suppose she knows the workings of village life, perhaps even something of the politics between nations, but she does claim certainty about matters learned only through study and discussion with those who know. Still, she might be correct. Mazrim Taim might well find it impossible to proclaim himself. But if others do it for him, is there a difference that matters?”

Egwene wished Moiraine would come back. The woman would not speak so confidently if Moiraine were there. Joiya knew very well that she and Nynaeve were only Accepted. It made a difference.

“Go on,” Egwene said, almost as harshly as Nynaeve. “And remember, different words.”

“Of course,” Joiya replied, as though responding to a gracious invitation, but her eyes glittered like chips of black glass. “You can see the obvious result. Rand al’Thor will be blamed for the depredations of . . . Rand al’Thor. Even proof that they are not the same man may well be dismissed. After all, who can say what tricks the Dragon Reborn can play? Perhaps put himself in two places at once. Even the sort who have always rallied to a false Dragon will hesitate in the face of the indiscriminate slaughter and worse laid at his feet. Those who do not shrink at such butchery will seek out the Rand al’Thor who seems to revel in blood. The nations will unite as they did in the Aiel War . . . ” She gave Aviendha an apologetic smile, incongruous beneath those merciless eyes. “ . . . but no doubt much more quickly. Even the Dragon Reborn cannot stand against that, not forever. He will be crushed before the Last Battle even begins, by the very ones he was meant to save. The Dark One will break free, the day of Tarmon Gai’don will come, and the Shadow will cover the earth and remake the Pattern for all time. That is Liandrin’s plan.” There was not a hint of satisfaction in her voice, but no horror, either.

It was a plausible story, more plausible than Amico’s tale of a few eavesdropped sentences, but Egwene believed Amico and not Joiya. Perhaps because she wanted to. A vague threat in Tanchico was easier to face than this fully fleshed plan to turn every hand against Rand. No, she thought. Joiya is lying. I am sure she is. Yet they could not afford to ignore either story. But they could not chase after both, not with any hope of success.

The door banged open, and Moiraine strode in, with Elayne following. The Daughter-Heir was frowning at the floor in front of her toes, lost in dark thoughts, but Moiraine . . . For once the Aes Sedai’s serenity had vanished; fury painted her face.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 5 "Questioners" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with Nynaeve al'Meara, Aviendha, Joiya, Amico in a underground room in the Stone

Enigma
09-09-2011, 07:22 AM
Does anyone have any thoughts on was Taim a darkfriend from the day we first heard of him, or was his conversion more recent?

I think he was probably a darkfriend from when Rand first met him but one could spin it that he was just a false dragon who turned bacause he became unhappy with his treatment by Rand. It could mirror how some of the forsaken turned because they were under appreciated.

Zombie Sammael
09-09-2011, 07:47 AM
Does anyone have any thoughts on was Taim a darkfriend from the day we first heard of him, or was his conversion more recent?

I think he was probably a darkfriend from when Rand first met him but one could spin it that he was just a false dragon who turned bacause he became unhappy with his treatment by Rand. It could mirror how some of the forsaken turned because they were under appreciated.

Some people think he was a Darkfriend long before he proclaimed himself as a False Dragon, having received early training from Ishamael. There are some quite detailed theories on the matter and his release from AS imprisonment.

The Unreasoner
09-09-2011, 04:05 PM
That is cool! It wears sunglasses!
I would normally think I was being mocked with this. Like Jokeslayer did with science's hat.
But:
Sorry, a little delirious atm, so I am even less coherent than usual. hehe
seems to warn me not to take it too personally. Although the actively nonexistent title really threw me (and I prefer thin crust for my pizza).

That last sentence had relevance, lol.
Happy rendering wolf.

Heinz
09-09-2011, 05:33 PM
How certain is Verin? How certain is Joiya?


I would actually be curious to learn exactly what could have been possible here. I have always assumed there was no possibility of Taim being proclaimed a (false) Dragon, by himself or by others. If the Pattern has no more room for false Dragons, then it has no room. I would think it can handle the distinction between Taim himself saying it, or another. The fact that he's a false Dragon would remain.

Enigma
09-09-2011, 06:19 PM
Some people think he was a Darkfriend long before he proclaimed himself as a False Dragon, having received early training from Ishamael. There are some quite detailed theories on the matter and his release from AS imprisonment.

One of the ones I favoured was that Taim was uncovered during the vileness or at least at the end of it. The BA were hunting lucky men in their seek and destroy mission but that stopped with Ishamael got free and learned what they had done.

The last head of the BA had an 'accident' with a ter'angreal as punishment. I could see a long term planner like Ishamael telling the BA that if they did come across any male chanellers to bring him to Ishamael who would then check if it was the Dragon Reborn. Taim gets scooped up and Ishamael finds that he is not the Dragon but makes him an offer he can't refuse in exchange for some training and a seat at the winners enclousre after the end of the world.

One of the main problems with that theory is that Taim would have had to survive years of the Taint. One might suggest that he could get the same protection the male forsaken got but RJ specifically said that the protection was only put in place just before Aginor & co got out.

15 to 20 years depending on when Taim might have been caught it a lot of taint to take in, especially for someone as strong as Taim. He should be non functioning insane.

Zombie Sammael
09-09-2011, 06:29 PM
15 to 20 years depending on when Taim might have been caught it a lot of taint to take in, especially for someone as strong as Taim. He should be non functioning insane.

Kind of makes The Unreasoner's theory look good, doesn't it? Of course, it's also possible that he was regularly being healed by Ishamael with the TP; we know from "Dragonmount" that it was possible.

FelixPax
09-09-2011, 07:07 PM
I would actually be curious to learn exactly what could have been possible here. I have always assumed there was no possibility of Taim being proclaimed a (false) Dragon, by himself or by others.

What do you make of Taim's choice of title, M'Hael?Or his "a black coat with fancy embroidery" in Tam al'Thor words?


If the Pattern has no more room for false Dragons, then it has no room. I would think it can handle the distinction between Taim himself saying it, or another. The fact that he's a false Dragon would remain.

As far as I know, Joiya never did learn if Taim was successful freed by the Shadow or not. She died before that occurred.

In terms of Verin's beliefs about Rand al'Thor, she never learned that Tigraine was his biological mother. If she had, I strongly believe she'd have serious doubts about who Rand al'Thor truly is. Verin had to know, Tigraine was wed to a man. One of spies in Caemlyn, worked for the Brown Ajah--if not the Black Ajah too: the 2nd Librarian.

Verin has discounted evidence, clues that someone else is the Dragon. Curiously, Verin seems to know Taim is up to no good at all, at the Black Tower in a point of view of hers' set in Caemlyn.


IMHO, both Taim and Rand al'Thor are False Dragons. If the claim "the Pattern has no room for False Dragon" is true, Taim existence is quite telling about Rand al'Thor own claims. Delusional.

The Unreasoner
09-09-2011, 10:03 PM
My thoughts on some quotes...


HBFFerreira on Twitter - 20 July 2010 2:35 pm

The Gathering Storm: Rand's dark aura was an effect of channeling the True Power, right? Winter's Heart prologue: didn't Taim cast a similar aura?

Brandon - 21 July 12:18 am

You're the first to notice that that I've seen.
While my Taim-is-a-lunatic theory doesn't rule out the possibility of him channeling the TP, the aura isn't definitely caused by using it, at least in Taim's case. It could be metaphorical. And Brandon may have meant something like "You're the first to notice that. You may be reading way too far into it though. Two Rivers cats have six toes, and Taim was introduced in book six. Is there something there too?"

Towers of Midnight book tour 6 November 2010, Bailey's Crossroads, VA - Robert Mee reporting

Taim may not be a standard Third-Ager. Brandon wouldn’t say any further because he has about 5 chapters revolving around the Black Tower to write for the beginning of the next book and he didn’t want to spoil, so it was half a RAFO.
One way I fit this into my theory was that Taim's madness lets him hear the real voice of his past life as an AoL general. It could explain his vast knowledge, recognition of the seal, knowledge of the Old Tounge, use of the "so-called Aiel" phrase, and impressive competence.

WinespringBrother on Twitter 8 November 2010
Is Taim a Darkfriend?

Brandon
Wow. I could really blow things up with that one, eh? I'll be safe and RAFO.
While Team Jordan likes to mess with us by not confirming or denying some 'obvious' theories, this may mean that it is not obvious. Many of the biggest mysteries concerning characters blurred the line between darkfriend and lightfriend. Like Verin, Ingtar, Fain, Masema, Elza, Lanfear, and Asmodean.

WinespringBrother reporting:

WinespringBrother: How old is Taim and has he slowed?
RJ: Taim has slowed, but one thing I am not going to reveal it in the books, so I'll tell you, men slow later than women do. And yes, he has slowed, and he is in his late twenties, yes his late twenties.
Taim was only about Olver's age even at the end of the Vileness. So it seems unlikely that the Red or Black sisters found him. Not impossible, certainly, if the "lucky men" criteria was used. But unlikely. Unless he began channeling unnaturally early, like Aviendha's 'kids' seemed to. Which could explain the 'not a standard Third-Ager' line.




[WILD SPECULATION]Maybe Taim was one of the Hundred Companions, died at Shayol Ghul, and had his soul 'caught' by the DO before the sealing. Maybe he was turned while being held, maybe just made nuts, or maybe was 'altered' like Slayer. Immunity to the Taint, access to the True Power, instant obedience to the DO's 'voice' in his head (similar to Moridin's direct line), important knowledge of weaves (like Fain and the Ways), and maybe even a mark like Alviarin. All without turning him, so that even under the strongest Compulsion he could deny serving the Shadow, and would be immune to whatever Rand Sedai is doing to Darkfriends.[/WILD SPECULATION]

Anyway, I first brought up the theory here (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5516). It was mostly dismissed, but there was a lot of good discussion on other points.

The Unreasoner
09-09-2011, 11:30 PM
IMHO, both Taim and Rand al'Thor are False Dragons.

Wouldn't it be a cool shout-out to TL if at the end of AMoL there was something like the ending of ACoS?

The story spread as stories will, and changed as stories change with time and distance, spreading out from Illian by coasting ships, and merchant trains of wagons, and pigeons sent in secret, spreading in ripples that danced with other ripples and made new. An army had come to Illian, the stories said, an army of Aiel, of Aes Sedai appearing from thin air, of men who could channel riding winged beasts, even an army of Saldaeans, though not many believed that one. Some tales said the Dragon Reborn had been presented the Laurel Crown of Illian by the Council of Nine, and others by Martin Stepaneos himself on bended knee. Some said the Dragon Reborn had wrenched the crown from Martin’s head, then stuck that head on a spike. No, the Dragon Reborn had razed Illian to the ground and buried the old king in the rubble. No, he and his army of Asha’man had burned Illian out of the earth. No, it was Ebou Dar he had destroyed, after Illian.

I always cracked up at this. But maybe have the ending rumors something like "Some said it was Logain, the Saldaean leader of the Black Tower who defeated the Dark One. Others asserted that it was the Aiel clan chiefs, and that they were all the Dragon. This rumor was common, as the Aiel chiefs were thought to have created the Dragon Banner to honor themselves, and everyone knew that the most dedicated Aiel believed that they were just a spear for their Dragon leaders. Some people even claimed that the Amyrlin saved the world after gentling Mazrim Taim-who was Demandred all along. No, he was Moridin. Or the Raven Prince. The Empress defeated the Dark One by having him kneel to her after giving him her favorite toy, an eye. A few merchants from Ghealdan claimed that the Ringmaster killed the Dark One, right before convincing the world to turn to the Way of the Leaf. Most Tinkers seemed confused by this rumor, and attributed the victory to the finding of the Song by the departed Ogier. Most people doubted that the Andoran shepherd that had called himself the Dragon was responsible, though they believed he was the Dragon. But if he had gained such glory in defeating the Shadow, where was he now? Why would he avoid such praise? The White Tower's ambassador to Cairhien frequently was mentioned too, but generally dismissed. The Aes Sedai was a once-legendary Green named Cadsuane who had hidden her status as a Damodred from the Amyrlin, and fled with her gleeman lover in disgrace rather than face her anger..."

Anyway, have some of our wilder theories play a cameo as the 'rumors' of the end. I think it would be a cool shout-out.



Irrelevant to the rest of my post (and the thread itself) but I loved the rest of that passage too, one of my favorite endings in all the books:
One fact, though, turned up again and again in those tales. The Laurel Crown of Illian had been given a new name. The Crown of Swords.

And for some reason, men and women who told the tales often found a need to add almost identical words. The storm is coming, they said, staring southward in worry. The storm is coming.

Enigma
09-10-2011, 08:34 AM
Taim was only about Olver's age even at the end of the Vileness. So it seems unlikely that the Red or Black sisters found him. Not impossible, certainly, if the "lucky men" criteria was used. But unlikely. Unless he began channeling unnaturally early, like Aviendha's 'kids' seemed to. Which could explain the 'not a standard Third-Ager' line.


We know that once Ishamael began to emerge from th bore he took the BA in hand and stopped their hunt and destroy operation. We also know that ishamael spent some time and effort into turning Rand.

I don't think its a stretch to say that Ishamael may have left instructions with the BA that if they encountered a male channeler of unusual strenght if at all possible i.e. there were no light AS around, they were to try to capture the male channeller and deliver him to the Shadow.

That way if they catch the Dragon Reborn the DO and Ishamael can control or turn him. If the captive is not the Dragon but could be useful he could be made a great job offer or if he refused he could be turned.

Sodas
09-10-2011, 05:36 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts on was Taim a darkfriend from the day we first heard of him, or was his conversion more recent?

I think he was probably a darkfriend from when Rand first met him but one could spin it that he was just a false dragon who turned bacause he became unhappy with his treatment by Rand. It could mirror how some of the forsaken turned because they were under appreciated.

I agree to some extent. He really had no other choice but to turn.

The Unreasoner
09-11-2011, 09:43 PM
From the database:
Q: Is one of the effects of the taint to lower the boundaries between past lives or is Rand a special case?
RJ: RAFO

Again, a possible explanation for Taim's knowledge, word choice, and maybe even personality. He has been channeling for a while. And he may have held off on proclaiming himself until he was mad enough to actually believe it, and not on orders from Ishamael or for a deal with the Black Ajah.

FelixPax
09-13-2011, 01:04 PM
From the database:

Q: Is one of the effects of the taint to lower the boundaries between past lives or is Rand a special case?
RJ: RAFO]


Rand is not the only character to have memories or echoes of past lives appear in the story.


Matrim Cauthon, Perrin, Egwene al'Vere, Nynaeve al'Meara, Mandein, and Birgitte (of course) all have experienced echoes of the past lives or memories of the past in the narrative. I can give quotes, if requested.


Perrin, Mandein nor Birgitte have not channeled, thus Tainting does not seem to be factor nor influence an individual soul's ability to access past reincarnation memories.



In terms of outside mythological sources, I do wonder if Robert Jordan decided to draw on Greek Mythology in this particular area:


Zeus and Mnemosyne slept together for nine consecutive nights and thereby created the nine Muses. Mnemosyne also presided over a pool in Hades, counterpart to the river Lethe, according to a series of 4th century BC Greek funerary inscriptions in dactylic hexameter. Dead souls drank from Lethe so they would not remember their past lives when reincarnated. Initiates were encouraged to drink from the river Mnemosyne when they died, instead of Lethe. These inscriptions may have been connected with Orphic poetry (see Zuntz, 1971).

Source: Mnemosyne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mnemosyne) at Wikipedia.org


Birgitte's character never had an opportunity to drink from the proverbial river, before entering Randland because of Moghedien's actions.


I wonder if characters like Agni Neres (http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/a/agni_neres.html) (aka Agni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni)), Nemaris (http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/n/nemaris.html) (aka Nemesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_(mythology))) are like Birgitte's character, do they remember their past reincarnations? Hard to say, without a point of view.

At least in the cases of Rand, Matrim Cauthon, Perrin, Egwene al'Vere, Nynaeve al'Meara, Mandein, and Birgitte's characters, reader's have viewpoint examples. Echoes of past reincarnations, which appear as memories.


Does Mierin (aka Nyx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyx)) now have access to her past reincarnations memories, since visiting the Eelfinn? She sure does had an altered demeanor towards Rand al'Thor. If Mat could be given access to memories by the Eelfinn, why not Mierin as well?

The Unreasoner
09-13-2011, 05:31 PM
Rand is not the only character to have memories or echoes of past lives appear in the story.

That's my point. The cases you mentioned might be structurally different though, or even fundamentally so. Of course all information transmitted across lives might be perceived in a different manner, depending on how the 'barrier' is weakened.

But "Not Standard" does not need to be "is Unique".
Among the examples you brought up, Egwene seems to be the best example to be compared with Rand though (and [possibly Taim). Mat's memories were selected by agents according to the Pattern's criteria, as translated by Mat Cauthon. So aside from the fact that Mat's memories may not be his own at all, there is cause for them to be selected by a far more deterministic process than Rand's. They are distinct and independent from one another, and every one seems to exist with sufficient cause. Be it 'generalling' or learning new swear words from the Sea Folk, all of Mat's memories appear to be 'selected'. Rand, and possibly Taim, may be nonstandard because they recall a single life across Age lines. Egwene vaguely rercalls the Old Tongue, but no more.

GonzoTheGreat
09-13-2011, 05:36 PM
Mat started having some old memories in TEOTW, even before they came to Shadar Logoth for the first time.

Zombie Sammael
09-13-2011, 05:37 PM
Mat started having some old memories in TEOTW, even before they came to Shadar Logoth for the first time.

That's because Mat is the Dragon Reborn. Haven't you been paying attention?

FelixPax
09-13-2011, 06:30 PM
Mat started having some old memories in TEOTW, even before they came to Shadar Logoth for the first time.

Yes even later too, as Mat had memories pop up while at the White Tower in Tar Valon. Before Matrim Cauthon left by boat for Tear and Portal Stone for Rhuidean.


“Muad’drin tia dar allende caba’drin rhadiem,” he murmured. The words were only sounds, yet they sparked—something.

The packed lines of spearmen stretched a mile or more to either side below him, dotted with the pennants and banners of towns and cities and minor Houses. The river secured his flank on the left, the bogs and mires on the right. From the hillside he watched the spearmen struggle against the mass of Trollocs trying to break through, ten times the humans’ number. Spears pierced black Trolloc mail, and spiked axes carved bloody gaps in the human ranks. Screams and bellows harried the air. The sun burned hot overhead in a cloudless sky, and shimmers of heat rose above the battle line. Arrows still rained down from the enemy, slaying Trolloc and human alike. He had called his archers back, but the Dreadlords did not care so long as they broke his line. On the ridge behind him, the Heart Guard awaited his command, horses stamping impatiently. Armor on men and horses alike shone silver in the sunlight; neither men nor animals could stand the heat much longer.

They must win here or die. He was known as a gambler; it was time to toss the dice. In a voice that carried over the tumult below, he gave the order as he swung up into his saddle. “Footmen prepare to pass cavalry forward.” His bannerman rode close beside him, the Red Eagle banner flapping over his head, as the command was repeated up and down the line.

Below, the spearmen suddenly moved, sidestepping with good discipline, narrowing their formations, opening wide gaps between. Gaps into which the Trollocs poured, roaring bestial cries, like a black, oozing tide of death.

He drew his sword, raised it high. “Forward the Heart Guard!” He dug his heels in, and his mount leaped down the slope. Behind him, hooves thundered in the charge. “Forward.” He was first to strike into the Trollocs, his sword rising and falling, his bannerman close behind. “For the honor of the Red Eagle!” The Heart Guard pounded into the gaps between the spearmen, smashing the tide, hurling it back. “The Red Eagle!” Half-human faces snarled at him, oddly curved swords sought him, but he cut his way ever deeper. Win or die. “Manetheren!”

Mat’s hand trembled as he raised it to his forehead. “Los Valdar Cuebiyari,” he muttered. He was almost sure he knew what it meant—“Forward the Heart Guard,” or maybe “The Heart Guard will advance”—but that could not be. Moiraine had told him a few words of the Old Tongue, and those were all he knew of it. The rest might as well be magpie chatter.

“Crazy,” he said roughly. “It probably isn’t even the Old Tongue at all. Just gibberish. That Aes Sedai is crazy. It was only a dream.”


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 19 "Awakening" -- Matrim Cauthon point of view


Only a dream, ha!
Where did Birgitte have memories & knowledge of her past reincarnations originally?
In a World of Dreams.

The Unreasoner
09-14-2011, 08:25 AM
Mat started having some old memories in TEOTW, even before they came to Shadar Logoth for the first time.

Within a single Age though. Like Egwene's partial recollection.

Zombie Sammael
09-14-2011, 08:42 AM
Within a single Age though. Like Egwene's partial recollection.

Where is Egwene's partial recollection? I don't recall it, and I'm fascinated by the idea that she might have done.

The Unreasoner
09-14-2011, 09:06 AM
Where is Egwene's partial recollection? I don't recall it, and I'm fascinated by the idea that she might have done.
From the Eye of the World, Chapter 18:
After a few minutes Egwene spoke to Rand quietly, casting an uneasy eye at the still-arguing pair. “Those things you were shouting at the Trollocs.” She stopped as if unsure how to proceed.

“What about them?” Rand asked. He felt a little awkward—warcries were all right for Warders; Two Rivers folk did not do things like that, whatever Moiraine said—but if she made fun of him over it . . . “Mat must have repeated that story ten times. ”

“And badly,” Thom put in. Mat grunted in protest.

“However he told it,” Rand said, “we’ve all heard it any number of times. Besides, we had to shout something. I mean, that’s what you do at a time like that. You heard Lan.”

“And we have a right,” Perrin added thoughtfully. “Moiraine says we’re all descended from those Manetheren people. They fought the Dark One, and we’re fighting the Dark One. That gives us a right.”

Egwene sniffed as if to show what she thought of that. “I wasn’t talking about that. What . . . what were you shouting, Mat?”

Mat shrugged uncomfortably. “I don’t remember.” He stared at them defensively. “Well, I don’t. It’s all foggy. I don’t know what it was, or where it came from, or what it means.” He gave a self-deprecating laugh. “I don’t suppose it means anything.”

“I . . . I think it does,” Egwene said slowly. “When you shouted, I thought—just for a minute—I thought I understood you. But it’s all gone, now.” She sighed and shook her head. “Perhaps you’re right. Strange what you can imagine at a time like that, isn’t it?”

“Carai an Caldazar,” Moiraine said. They all twisted to stare at her. “Carai an Ellisande. Al Ellisande. For the honor of the Red Eagle. For the honor of the Rose of the Sun. The Rose of the Sun. The ancient warcry of Manetheren, and the warcry of its last king. Eldrene was called the Rose of the Sun.” Moiraine’s smile took in Egwene and Mat both, though her gaze may have rested a moment longer on him than on her. “The blood of Arad’s line is still strong in the Two Rivers. The old blood still sings.”

Zombie Sammael
09-14-2011, 09:25 AM
From the Eye of the World, Chapter 18:

Hmmm. Is that the only example? That might just indicate a talent for languages (that will never be developed in this world) rather than strictly an actual past life recollection.

Davian93
09-14-2011, 09:30 AM
Hmmm. Is that the only example? That might just indicate a talent for languages (that will never be developed in this world) rather than strictly an actual past life recollection.

Exactly...she thought she recognized some of it because its the Old Tongue and the current new tongue is very similar to it just pronounced very differently...thus, she "thought she almost understood" probably along the same level if you came up and spoke to me in late Old English/early Middle English. I'd be able to pick up a word or two but not have any comprehension. For example, I can read and understand Chaucer (Middle English) without too much issue...particularly once I get into it...I can also recognize some Old English when looking at original manuscripts of it. It probably helps that I took 5 years of Latin but still...

The Unreasoner
09-14-2011, 10:06 AM
Maybe. It's why I used "partial". And in any case, my point is that memories or knowledge from past lives is probably not totally uncommon. But memories from past lives in another Age is. Standard Third Agers do not have personal recollections of the Second Age. People who lived through the transition (the Forsaken, and anyone alive Third Age, Day 1), Heroes, and Rand are not standard. Taim has exhibited lots of knowledge from the Second Age. The fist clutching lightning insignia seems to be a Second Age symbol, "so-called" Aiel is a Second Age name for Third Age Aiel, and recognition of the Seals for a man seems to be very rare indeed in the Third Age. Fluency in the Old Tongue is statistically more likely to be seen in a Second Age person, as is vast knowledge of male channeling weaves. This did not come from thin air. If the knowledge was given to Taim by a Forsaken, the Forsaken was not just creating a tool that knew what it needed to.

Seal recognition could have been necessary for an objective, and "so-called" could have been idly spoken and then overheard. But the overall magnitude of knowledge imparted to Taim suggests a teacher that actually cared to teach, and for its own sake. Ishamael does fit that profile, but none of the other Forsaken do. And any other Forsaken would have avoided 'power and skill residing together'. But Ishamael is unlikely to have the insignia displayed everywhere/anywhere (seems to be a field officer symbol, but even if it is just male Fosaken/AoL Elite, Ishamael belives he is more than simply that) to be copied from, and would only have taught Taim of it if he saw it as important. Perhaps it was taught for its own sake, perhaps taught so Taim would recognize it and obey, perhaps taught so Taim could use it himself. But it would have needed to be taught. Or remembered. If the taint does make it easier to access memories from other Ages, Taim easily has been tainted enough that this would render him Not Standard.

kabkaba
09-14-2011, 11:01 AM
Wouldn't it be a cool shout-out to TL if at the end of AMoL there was something like the ending of ACoS?



I always cracked up at this. But maybe have the ending rumors something like "Some said it was Logain, the Saldaean leader of the Black Tower who defeated the Dark One. Others asserted that it was the Aiel clan chiefs, and that they were all the Dragon. This rumor was common, as the Aiel chiefs were thought to have created the Dragon Banner to honor themselves, and everyone knew that the most dedicated Aiel believed that they were just a spear for their Dragon leaders. Some people even claimed that the Amyrlin saved the world after gentling Mazrim Taim-who was Demandred all along. No, he was Moridin. Or the Raven Prince. The Empress defeated the Dark One by having him kneel to her after giving him her favorite toy, an eye. A few merchants from Ghealdan claimed that the Ringmaster killed the Dark One, right before convincing the world to turn to the Way of the Leaf. Most Tinkers seemed confused by this rumor, and attributed the victory to the finding of the Song by the departed Ogier. Most people doubted that the Andoran shepherd that had called himself the Dragon was responsible, though they believed he was the Dragon. But if he had gained such glory in defeating the Shadow, where was he now? Why would he avoid such praise? The White Tower's ambassador to Cairhien frequently was mentioned too, but generally dismissed. The Aes Sedai was a once-legendary Green named Cadsuane who had hidden her status as a Damodred from the Amyrlin, and fled with her gleeman lover in disgrace rather than face her anger..."

Anyway, have some of our wilder theories play a cameo as the 'rumors' of the end. I think it would be a cool shout-out.



Irrelevant to the rest of my post (and the thread itself) but I loved the rest of that passage too, one of my favorite endings in all the books:

I really like this idea. It totally makes sense.

Tree Brother
09-21-2011, 03:19 PM
Yes even later too, as Mat had memories pop up while at the White Tower in Tar Valon. Before Matrim Cauthon left by boat for Tear and Portal Stone for Rhuidean.


And of course, he didn't need a translator when when dealing with the first Finn's. He could fluently speak the old tongue even before he was given the memories of other men.

The Unreasoner
09-21-2011, 07:31 PM
And of course, he didn't need a translator when when dealing with the first Finn's. He could fluently speak the old tongue even before he was given the memories of other men.
I always wondered what to make of this. Later on (after Rhuidean) Birgitte notes that he has multiple accents. Was that just a side effect of integration? His original fluency could have been defined by the life Mat 'saw' in Tar Valon.

GonzoTheGreat
09-22-2011, 05:55 AM
He might have had a bunch of accents when speaking to the *finns too. The fact that they were too polite to comment on it does not prove anything, after all.

greatwolf
10-08-2011, 07:33 AM
One of the ones I favoured was that Taim was uncovered during the vileness or at least at the end of it. The BA were hunting lucky men in their seek and destroy mission but that stopped with Ishamael got free and learned what they had done.


Ishamael had dreadlords (male and female) during the trolloc wars so we can assume that he has been actively recruiting male channelers, maybe since the breaking. But we don't know how or where he trains them.

If he recruited Taim, then he may have been training him since mid teens, maybe ten years by now. Letting Taim become a false dragon would be the kind of thing we can expect from ishy, especially with Taim's resemblance to Demandred. So if orders were left to the BA about Taim, they likely came from Ishamael before he was killed in the stone.

But none of the above explains why Taim acts like an aoler. Or how much he seems to know or him using the TP. In fact Taimandred remains the best explanation for Taim so far. Just that it cannot explain a few things. Like why RJ killed it :) .

GonzoTheGreat
10-08-2011, 08:22 AM
Ishamael had dreadlocks ...Warning: misreading can lead to bemusement.

If he recruited Taim, then he may have been training him since mid teens, maybe ten years by now. Letting Taim become a false dragon would be the kind of thing we can expect from ishy, especially with Taim's resemblance to Demandred.An interesting fact is that in the following, Taim isn't mentioned as a WT puppet:
The flames laughed. "So there is some spirit in you after all. Perhaps you are the one. Little good it will do you. The Amyrlin Seat will use you until you are consumed, just as Davian was used, and Yurian Stonebow, and Guaire Amalasan, and Raolin Darksbane. Just as Logain is being used. Used until there is nothing left of you."

The Unreasoner
10-08-2011, 03:42 PM
Warning: misreading can lead to bemusement.
I'd be careful. Intentionally misquoting someone for the sake of comedy used to be a bannable offense, back in the days when I was banned.

But on Taim:
Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand’s body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.

I commented on this in the second half of my thoughts on the prophecies (I need to get around to adding actual references, to satisfy popular demand. I just think it will be a pain the ass, so I keep putting it off. Anyway, the other half will be up eventually).

What if Taim is the one on the funeral bier? It has been said over and over: 'when looking at Taim, you would think he was the Dragon himself.' A literal translation would likely be a mistake (especially for Egwene's dreams. A viewing may ultimately be pretty literal, but Aes Sedai are not birds being gobbled by a snake. Not even Nesune). And I can't even imagine the point of having an actual paper puppet of Rand. Maybe instead of Real Rand/Dragon-False Body we have something like False Dragon/Rand-Real Body. The paper puppet may appear to be Rand at first glance, but it is not. And Taim may appear to be the Dragon, but is not. In both cases a minimal amount of effort can reveal the truth: touching the puppet destroys it, and not being in a coma should be enough to convince someone Taim is not the Dragon (It's really not, but it is pretty damn easy. Tattoos, ta'veren, Callandor. Oh and the patches of clear sky that follow him around are kind of a dead giveaway).

This view certainly makes Logain's significance in the dream very clear. And it in no way rules out my 'Taim is not a Darkfriend' theory.

GonzoTheGreat
10-09-2011, 05:51 AM
I'd be careful. Intentionally misquoting someone for the sake of comedy used to be a bannable offense, back in the days when I was banned.My purpose wasn't just the misquote. It was pointing out the misread I'd done myself. I reread it because I thought "Ishamael with dreadlocks, that can't be correct", and it wasn't.

The Unreasoner
10-09-2011, 07:18 AM
"Ishamael with dreadlocks, that can't be correct", and it wasn't.
Maybe not 'correct,' but certainly awesome.

Enigma
10-10-2011, 07:48 AM
Ishamael had dreadlords (male and female) during the trolloc wars so we can assume that he has been actively recruiting male channelers, maybe since the breaking. But we don't know how or where he trains them.

Presumably Ishamael can only train such men during his temporary releases. The darkfriend network is big enought to find men who can channell but we know from RJ that the filter against the taint was only put in place before Aginor & co were released. That means any male darkfriend channeler will still go mad. When Ishamel is not around who would train them?

The Black Tower worked because Rand cleansed the taint before they could all go mad and at best it was going to be a short term operation pre cleansing. If one tried to set up a male channeling school after a few years all the experienced students would be mad and unable to teach.

As for why Taim speaks with such reference to the AoL perhaps he picked it up from Ishamael. He would not be the first guy to try and imitate those he thought were cool and bad ass.

Destrina
10-12-2011, 11:46 PM
I'm in the probably new, Taim is Be'lal camp.

Some points of evidence, these are from my post in the True Origins of Mazrim Taim theory on the main page:

"THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. THOSE WHO BETRAY ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVED WELL YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME."

The DO specifically does not mention Be'lal, Aginor, Balthamel, Lanfear, or Ishamael. All four of the others have been transmigrated.

Moiraine says, when explaining balefire, that she can only remove a person from the pattern for a few seconds. Conceivably this could be a short enough time that Be'lal could be revived.

Be'lal has the knowledge to call the Aiel, "so called Aiel." He is one of the Forsaken, and could produce the ravings of LTT in Rand's head, and since we know this wasn't really LTT, and furthermore since Rand believes Be'lal is permanently dead, LTT's voice would never attribute Taim as being Be'lal.

Finally Taim's disdain of swords. It could be because his new body is clumsy and lacks the muscle memory required to be a true blademaster, or it could simply be that he hates others using something that is "his". Be'lal was dubbed "The Envious" for a reason. If he is Taim, he also has no reason to carry a physical sword, as he has demonstrated the ability to channel one anyway.

Oden later posted this:

RJ: "There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the pattern."

Enigma
10-13-2011, 08:15 AM
Be'lal was also called the 'netweaver' because of his careful plots and plans. Sending his known associates and top lieutenants after Rand is not exactly subltle.

As for his new body not being very good with swords, he might lack the muscle memory but he would still know technique where as Taim seems totally clueless about swords and holds them in contenmpt. A Blademaster, even an ex blademaster would still respect the skill of a skilled fencer and know that he could be dangerous in the right circumstances, even to a powerful channeler.

Destrina
10-13-2011, 09:11 PM
While he sent his known associates after Rand, he also immediately came to Rand and told him that they were now deserters and would be hunted down.

He struck without being seen and managed to implicate his tools as the ones who contrived his plot. Pretty sneaky.

Enigma
10-14-2011, 09:31 AM
The trouble with having your lieutenants try to kill your boss is that even if you deny any involvement and claim that they have gone renegade people are still suspicious of you. This was what happend to Suroth when her man tried and failed to kill Tuon.

A skilled planner would have picked out some Asha'man who were not as closely associated with Taim to try and kill Rand.

One other point about Taim not being Be'lal is that Taim gave orders to the renegate Asha'man but so did other forsaken. As important as the BT is would two forsaken be assigned to it. There was only one forsaken working with the Seanchan and one with the White Tower. A second was only brought in when the Tower split and they needed one in each camp. Why then have two overseeing the Black Tower.

Destrina
10-14-2011, 10:22 PM
The trouble with having your lieutenants try to kill your boss is that even if you deny any involvement and claim that they have gone renegade people are still suspicious of you. This was what happend to Suroth when her man tried and failed to kill Tuon.

A skilled planner would have picked out some Asha'man who were not as closely associated with Taim to try and kill Rand.

One other point about Taim not being Be'lal is that Taim gave orders to the renegate Asha'man but so did other forsaken. As important as the BT is would two forsaken be assigned to it. There was only one forsaken working with the Seanchan and one with the White Tower. A second was only brought in when the Tower split and they needed one in each camp. Why then have two overseeing the Black Tower.

Rand doesn't really know what's going on in the BT at all. He doesn't even know there are separate factions. He also doesn't know Jahar, Damer, and Eben(RIP) are on the traitor's list. Rand doesn't know anything about the BT so there is nothing to hide from him.

Furthermore, there are only so many Darkfriends in the BT (at this point in the story especially), and of those Darkfriends only so many can stand up to Rand, even in a group. It's not like the BA. They've had 3000 years to infiltrate the WT, and have sisters across the spectrum of strength in the OP.

And your second point isn't a point at all. Mesaana is the Forsaken in the White Tower, does that stop any of the other Forsaken from ordering around members of the BA. Not at all. The Forsaken are constantly giving orders to whatever darkfriends they find, sometimes they conflict, sometimes they don't. The Forsaken are constantly at odds, they rarely work together and even more rarely share pertinent information. Getting orders from two Forsaken is quite the opposite of impossible, it's nearly routine.

GonzoTheGreat
10-15-2011, 05:30 AM
Yes, but the Forsaken also take some care not to go head to head unnecessarily. So they don't intrude into each other's bailiwick without either permission or a lot of stealth, and then only temporarily.

Demandred wouldn't have set up shop as a mercenary captain in either Rahvin's Andor or Sammael's Illian.
And in the same way, having two Forsaken in the BT would have led to a fight for supremacy, which would have left at least one of them dead. Unless they had very explicit orders from the DO not to do that, of course.

Destrina
10-15-2011, 01:42 PM
I'd just like to mention that Moridin also gives Rochaid, Kisman, etc. orders to steal Rand's stuff (he knows Rand has the access keys), and only kill him if they have to, around the same time Demandred tells them to kill him, which is around the same time Taim tells them to kill him.

No offense, but this is seriously not a point worth discussing, it happens ALL the time. It simply doesn't prove anything one way or another. Darkfriends get ordered about by whichever Forsaken notices them.

Ishara
10-19-2011, 02:24 PM
This has been touched upon, but I wanted to devote some time to the context of it as well...

We know that the first time that Rand meets Taim, he's with Bashere and that Bashere definitely doesn't recognize Taim. We also know that one of the things that convinced Bashere that it was Taim was not the suggestion that he had shaved (which is fishy on its own - a Saldaen shave?), but that he referenced a covert attack that Bashere had orchestrated and the negative outcome on the men (and their wives) that occurred when it failed.

He describes something that essentially sounds as if he put them under the sort of Compulsion that Graendal favours - sheer stupid will to please. Which would never be soemthing that someone just "picked" up. It's not a useful trick like a Sparker would normally learn, and there would be no one to teach him "real" weaves if he wasn't either a fake, or being taught by a Forsaken.

Just something to chew on...

We know he's not Demandred, and he's not Moridin, but he says way too much that sounds weird, and knows way too much to be from this Age. He's been channeling for 10 years, max, and yet he's neither obviously insane or falling apart of leprosy-like degeneration. Nor does he have those dead eyes that the others at the Black Tower have who have been forcibly turned. We have been shown a defineble characteristic of that, thanks to Working Leather. So, he's evil of his own free will? I'd like to say that he's like Masema (i.e. crazy and misguided, but not a Darkfriend), but just ToM proved that we were wrong about that. He *is* a Darkfriend - we just don't know what else he is...

The Unreasoner
10-19-2011, 03:50 PM
He describes something that essentially sounds as if he put them under the sort of Compulsion that Graendal favours - sheer stupid will to please.
Maybe simmilar in effect, but it wasn't Compulsion:
For kolp, Oberonus and NaClH2O, what Taim did to those Saldaeans wasn’t Compulsion. They just don’t have the intelligence left that would be needed for anything too exacting.
RJ seems to imply an important distinction. Graendal's signature Compulsion seems to cause devotion first, and any intelligence loss is secondary. Taim's weave seemed to target inteligence, and the 'desire to serve' was secondary. Also Graendal's servants weren't necessarily made mentally handicapped (some could function with a modicum of independence), and they all only wished to serve her. The Saldaeans are apparently all thoroughly mentally handicapped, and presumably would be content serving anyone.
Which would never be soemthing that someone just "picked" up. It's not a useful trick like a Sparker would normally learn, and there would be no one to teach him "real" weaves if he wasn't either a fake, or being taught by a Forsaken.
I don't know about that. Liandrin (and numerous other Third-Age sparkers) independently developed lesser Compulsion weaves. In fact, it may be the case that the 'tricks' sparkers develop are related to their personalities. Moiraine enjoys discovering secrets (think of the 'itch' she described in New Spring), so she develops an eavesdropping weave. I am not surprised at all that Liandrin would want the ability of Compulsion (power over others, the essential Darkfriend desire). I could easily believe Taim discovered some weave that destroys the minds of his enemies. Or, as I said before, if he has his own real voice from madness, he could have learned it from that.
We know he's not Demandred, and he's not Moridin, but he says way too much that sounds weird, and knows way too much to be from this Age.
Has it been confirmed that he isn't Moridin? I never thought he was, but this is good to know. As for the rest, I think I have given at least a long-shot alternative explanation earlier in the thread.
So, he's evil of his own free will? I'd like to say that he's like Masema (i.e. crazy and misguided, but not a Darkfriend), but just ToM proved that we were wrong about that. He *is* a Darkfriend
ToM did not prove anything of the sort. It heavily implied what you say, but it did not prove.

Maybe we are both wrong, and he isn't a super-Darkfriend or a Masema-esque madman. Maybe he's like Saruman. Always a bad guy, but never was on the side of the Shadow, though for a time he pretended to be. Saruman's incredible knowledge helped him use the tools of the Shadow for his own ends. Maybe Taim is using the 13x13 in the same way. How the knowledge came to him, I cannot yet say, though if he was an AoL Chosen, a real voice coulod have told him. Although I still favor the Masema-like Taim theory.

Ishara
10-20-2011, 11:19 AM
Maybe simmilar in effect, but it wasn't Compulsion:

RJ seems to imply an important distinction. Graendal's signature Compulsion seems to cause devotion first, and any intelligence loss is secondary. Taim's weave seemed to target inteligence, and the 'desire to serve' was secondary. Also Graendal's servants weren't necessarily made mentally handicapped (some could function with a modicum of independence), and they all only wished to serve her. The Saldaeans are apparently all thoroughly mentally handicapped, and presumably would be content serving anyone.
Thanks for the quote - it is a useful distinction, and actually bolsters my opinion that it wouldn't be leaned like a Sparker trick.

I don't know about that. Liandrin (and numerous other Third-Age sparkers) independently developed lesser Compulsion weaves. In fact, it may be the case that the 'tricks' sparkers develop are related to their personalities. Moiraine enjoys discovering secrets (think of the 'itch' she described in New Spring), so she develops an eavesdropping weave. I am not surprised at all that Liandrin would want the ability of Compulsion (power over others, the essential Darkfriend desire). I could easily believe Taim discovered some weave that destroys the minds of his enemies. Or, as I said before, if he has his own real voice from madness, he could have learned it from that.
The "tricks" that Sparkers learn are little ones designed usually to help them get what they want (like Liandrin's) or help them learn new things (like Moiraine). Verin speaks to this when she contemplates ho she developed her own weird weave akin to Compulsion. They are always "small," always localized (i.e. one person or thing at a time), and always discreet. It would never serve the purpose of a Sparker to develop a trick that exposed their ability to channel to others (wther they knew personally or not), nor would they normally have the strength or control to broaden the net, so to speak.

Taim's actions on those people are very different. First, it's applied to 4 people. If it was a "trick" it would have be done one at a time, as we've seen every other application of such weaves. So, unless he totally diabled all four Saldaens and did it to them in their sleep (which I admit is feasible), not likely to be a trick. Second, it's not all ALL discreet. To put a weave on people that robs them of the intelligence to the point of essentially removing their ability to exercise free will - people notice that sort of thing, you know? They ask questions and start to put things together - not good for a man who channels (obvs before he declared himself to the the Dragon Reborn - which is when he would have developed such a trick).

As such, I don't buy the argumnt that it something he taught himself. The only other person who coul have taught him was a male Forsaken...

Has it been confirmed that he isn't Moridin? I never thought he was, but this is good to know. As for the rest, I think I have given at least a long-shot alternative explanation earlier in the thread.
Well, the burden of proof for a reasonable decision based on the evidence is enough for me to believe that he is not Moridin. But, I'll accept that it may not be enough for everyone.

ToM did not prove anything of the sort. It heavily implied what you say, but it did not prove.

Again, we've seen more than enough to reasonably conclude that he's a Darkfriend - not everything needs to be spelled out explicitly for it to be true. But then again, even when it is (ahem, Graedal) that's not enough for some...

GonzoTheGreat
10-20-2011, 11:39 AM
The "tricks" that Sparkers learn are little ones designed usually to help them get what they want (like Liandrin's) or help them learn new things (like Moiraine).Or like the balefire that Nynaeve learns when she's frightened by a Myrddraal. Or the super-advanced Healing that Nynaeve learned before she came to the WT, when she really did count as a full sparker. Or like the things that Cadsuane learned from that mysterious wilder teacher of hers.

Ishara
10-20-2011, 12:12 PM
Or like the balefire that Nynaeve learns when she's frightened by a Myrddraal. Or the super-advanced Healing that Nynaeve learned before she came to the WT, when she really did count as a full sparker. Or like the things that Cadsuane learned from that mysterious wilder teacher of hers.

The example of Nynaeve's healing falls into the first category. She wants to heal people, so she does. It's still limited to one person at a time, and it's still subtle.

The example of Norla is questionable at best. Cadsuane called her a Wilder, but then she callas ALL Sparkers Wilders, so we have no frame of reference for whether Norla was taught by others (such as the Kin or the Daughters of Silence, for example). We don't know what Cadsuane learned from Norla (beyond humilty...LOL), so it's hard to extrapolate from that.

The third example is simply ot ringing a bell...;)

GonzoTheGreat
10-20-2011, 12:17 PM
By the third example, do you mean the balefire which Nynaeve used when she got captured by random DF brigands somewhere in Cairhien while on the way to getting captured by the BA in Tear?

Weiramon
10-20-2011, 01:38 PM
How the knowledge came to him, I cannot yet say, though if he was an AoL Chosen, a construct voice coulod have told him.

Burn my soul, that's impossible. Suggesting that a man who can channel would have memories from the Age of Legends! Next you'll be suggesting he would shave his Saldean beard because his memories are from another Age, or he scorns the sword because he lived in an Age when swords were merely for sport. No, if such a thing were possible, we would hear him referring to himself in the third person.

The Unreasoner
10-20-2011, 07:04 PM
Thanks for the quote - it is a useful distinction, and actually bolsters my opinion that it wouldn't be leaned like a Sparker trick.
I'm glad you found it useful. I'm not sure I follow your use of it.
The "tricks" that Sparkers learn are little ones designed usually to help them get what they want (like Liandrin's) or help them learn new things (like Moiraine). Verin speaks to this when she contemplates ho she developed her own weird weave akin to Compulsion. They are always "small," always localized (i.e. one person or thing at a time), and always discreet. It would never serve the purpose of a Sparker to develop a trick that exposed their ability to channel to others (wther they knew personally or not), nor would they normally have the strength or control to broaden the net, so to speak.

Taim's actions on those people are very different. First, it's applied to 4 people. If it was a "trick" it would have be done one at a time, as we've seen every other application of such weaves. So, unless he totally diabled all four Saldaens and did it to them in their sleep (which I admit is feasible), not likely to be a trick. Second, it's not all ALL discreet. To put a weave on people that robs them of the intelligence to the point of essentially removing their ability to exercise free will - people notice that sort of thing, you know? They ask questions and start to put things together - not good for a man who channels (obvs before he declared himself to the the Dragon Reborn - which is when he would have developed such a trick).
Hmmm.
I think you're applying overly rigid standards to the thing. Balefire is hardly subtle or discreet. And, as Gonzo pointed out, Nynaeve apparently taught herself how to do it. Healing aside (which fits in with the other 'tricks' quite nicely), and ignoring Rand's self-taught weaves (again, Taim may hear a 'real' voice as well), not all self-taught weaves seem to be discreet.

Taim is arrogant enough that he may not have cared when he developed the weave. Maybe the discreet property only applies when the channeler is trying to remain hidden. Since most women with 'tricks' join the Tower before long (wilders are sort of beside the point: the term 'tricks' comes from Aes Sedai and the Forsaken. We don't know how the Aiel or Sea Folk deal with self-taught weaves, or if they are necessarily discreet at all), the channelers may simply have no opportunity to develop non-discreet weaves. They may have been cautious until they were found. Taim may have begun with 'discreet' weaves, but as he became more arrogant (and more insane) he may have just developed weaves more rapidly, and with less caution. There is no reason to believe this 'retardation' weave was one of the first he learned.

As for using it on four at once...I don't think it matters. And maybe he didn't: four quick weaves (or divided flows) would work just as well. And I would think that inducing retardation would require less finesse than Compulsion: I could easily believe that it is something he just stumbled upon. Perhaps accidently, perhaps even while trying to figure out Compulsion in the first place.
Well, the burden of proof for a reasonable decision based on the evidence is enough for me to believe that he is not Moridin. But, I'll accept that it may not be enough for everyone.
Ah. Well I'm glad we got that in print. Whatever I believe or don't believe, I'd hate for a good idea to not be posted because the would-be poster thinks it has been proven impossible when it has not.
Or like the balefire that Nynaeve learns when she's frightened by a Myrddraal. Or the super-advanced Healing that Nynaeve learned before she came to the WT, when she really did count as a full sparker. Or like the things that Cadsuane learned from that mysterious wilder teacher of hers.
And thank you Gonzo, for reminding me that clever minds can use sarcasm as a succinct argument. Youngling Rep.
By the third example, do you mean the balefire which Nynaeve used when she got captured by random DF brigands somewhere in Cairhien while on the way to getting captured by the BA in Tear?
I'm not sure what she meant. I'd like to hear her thoughts on the balefire issue though. If the argument is 'well, she's a main,' I think the same could be said for Taim.
Burn my soul, that's impossible. Suggesting that a man who can channel would have memories from the Age of Legends! Next you'll be suggesting he would shave his Saldean beard because his memories are from another Age, or he scorns the sword because he lived in an Age when swords were merely for sport. No, if such a thing were possible, we would hear him referring to himself in the third person.
Haha. I should say, real memories. I think Lews Therin was a figment of Rand's imagination. But the memories were real. The same could be true of Taim, and his past life. Maybe as one of the thirty-something AoL Chosen.


On another note, I posted this earlier, but thought I'd bump it. On the Egwene dream of the funeral bier and puppet-Rand:
What if Taim is the one on the funeral bier? It has been said over and over: 'when looking at Taim, you would think he was the Dragon himself.' A literal translation would likely be a mistake (especially for Egwene's dreams. A viewing may ultimately be pretty literal, but Aes Sedai are not birds being gobbled by a snake. Not even Nesune). And I can't even imagine the point of having an actual paper puppet of Rand. Maybe instead of Real Rand/Dragon-False Body we have something like False Dragon/Rand-Real Body. The paper puppet may appear to be Rand at first glance, but it is not. And Taim may appear to be the Dragon, but is not. In both cases a minimal amount of effort can reveal the truth: touching the puppet destroys it, and not being in a coma should be enough to convince someone Taim is not the Dragon (It's really not, but it is pretty damn easy. Tattoos, ta'veren, Callandor. Oh and the patches of clear sky that follow him around are kind of a dead giveaway).

This view certainly makes Logain's significance in the dream very clear. And it in no way rules out my 'Taim is not a Darkfriend' theory.

greatwolf
11-07-2011, 08:25 PM
An interesting fact is that in the following, Taim isn't mentioned as a WT puppet:


I think I've noted this elsewhere before. I hope we can put all the data (inc chronology) on Taim together somewhere very soon. He may have begun his campaign as a false dragon around the time Ishamael was hunting the boys and the forsaken were free. About the same time Logain was already marching from Ghealdan toward Tear.

At this stage, he's probably in his late twenties and has been channeling since maybe late teens or earlier but hasn't gone mad yet. Has anyone gone more than five or ten years without succumbing to the taint?

But Taim has gone at least ten years here. Maybe same for Logain? Anyone with some facts?

Kimon
11-07-2011, 09:56 PM
I think I've noted this elsewhere before. I hope we can put all the data (inc chronology) on Taim together somewhere very soon. He may have begun his campaign as a false dragon around the time Ishamael was hunting the boys and the forsaken were free. About the same time Logain was already marching from Ghealdan toward Tear.

At this stage, he's probably in his late twenties and has been channeling since maybe late teens or earlier but hasn't gone mad yet. Has anyone gone more than five or ten years without succumbing to the taint?

But Taim has gone at least ten years here. Maybe same for Logain? Anyone with some facts?

Logain (according to LoC Ch 52) had been channeling for 6 years prior to his gentling, but obviously quite sane until his severing. His sanity frayed a bit after the severing, understandably, but rebounded back into mental health quite nicely.

Owyn (according to tGH Ch 26) had been channeling for 3 years when the Reds found him. Thom implies that he might have been getting a bit kooky near the end however.

Yurian Stonebow was active from 1300 - 1308 AB. Unclear how sane he was near the end.

Guaire Amalasan from 939-943 FY. Unclear how sane he was near the end.

eht slat meit
11-07-2011, 10:29 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the extent of the madness dependent on how much the man channels? A man who understands this, despite the lure of saidar, would be less inclined to use it unless needed. Rand being an example of this.

Logain was building an army, and Taim seems to have his own secret advantage, one that has allowed him to gain enough mastery in channeling to teach others to do the same and even test for it. All the while avoiding madness.

Seems to me that even though he's associated with Demandred now, Ishamael probably had him first and is responsible for his actions. We know the Forsaken use each other's servants, and it's entirely possible that Taim's use of Demandred's chosen phrase is not a reflection of a master's teachings, but an act of mockery.

GonzoTheGreat
11-08-2011, 05:39 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the extent of the madness dependent on how much the man channels?No. Not, at least, according to the available evidence. There's a believable story of someone who went mad on his first day in the BT, when he would have barely started touching the OP. On the other hand, there's Logain, who still seems quite sane despite having channeled a fair bit.

greatwolf
11-08-2011, 08:31 AM
Logain (according to LoC Ch 52) had been channeling for 6 years prior to his gentling,


Thanks Kim. The best defense I got for Taim's longevity against the taint is the sharans:

Shara: A mysterious land to the east of the Aiel Waste which is the source of silk and ivory, among other trade goods. The land is protected both by inhospitable natural features and by man-made walls. Little is known about Shara, as the people of that land work co keep their culture secret. The Sharans deny that the Trolloc Wars touched them, despite Aiel statements to the contrary. They deny knowledge of Artur Hawkwing’s attempted invasion, despite the accounts of eyewitnesses from the Sea Folk. The little information that has leaked out reveals that the Sharans are ruled by a single absolute monarch, a Sh’boan if a woman and a Sh’botay if a man. That monarch rules for exactly seven years, then dies. The rule then passes to the mate of that ruler, who rules for seven years and then dies. This pattern has repeated itself since the time of the Breaking of the World. The Sharans believe that the deaths are the “Will of the Pattern.”

But its unknown if they ever channel at all.

Green Man 22
11-08-2011, 01:33 PM
Be'lal was also called the 'netweaver' because of his careful plots and plans. Sending his known associates and top lieutenants after Rand is not exactly subltle.

As for his new body not being very good with swords, he might lack the muscle memory but he would still know technique where as Taim seems totally clueless about swords and holds them in contenmpt. A Blademaster, even an ex blademaster would still respect the skill of a skilled fencer and know that he could be dangerous in the right circumstances, even to a powerful channeler.

I think Taim being clueless about swords and having contempt for them actually is a good indicator he could be Be'lal.

Think about it. If you are a Forsaken who is probably also the greatest swordsman alive at the time, and you are trying to take on the role of another man, wouldn't you need to hide your skill with the sword? There are a couple of reasons for this.

First, Rand had fought Be'lal recently at the end of TDR. Be'lal was clearly better with the sword and toyed with Rand. If they were to spar with swords, and Be'lal accidentally showed his elite status, that tingling sense in the back of Rand's mind (telling him to kill Taim) could develop into full realization that Taim is really Be'lal.

Second, I would assume that Bashere would know whether Taim used or had any skill with swords, having hunted him. If Be'lal were to manifest his true skill with swords, wouldn't it also arouse further suspicion with Bashere?

If Be'lal caught and dispatched Taim in order to take his place, it is likely that he would have interrogated him in order to make himself a true replacement (like Halima interrogated Cabriana). That would be the source of his knowledge about Taim and his doings (the Saladeans, skill with swords, etc.), which would help him to handle doubters.

Remember, Taim later dismissed Rand's sword instructor from the Black Tower. He says it is because they don't need swords, but could it be that it is really because he knows he can teach them better? Maybe part of the secret lessons to his inner circle include master level sword lessons.

Crispin's Crispian
11-08-2011, 01:36 PM
Thanks Kim. The best defense I got for Taim's longevity against the taint is the sharans:



But its unknown if they ever channel at all.

Well, we have Graendal's POV in LoC:

The very dark man and woman had come to the foot of the dais with their peculiar harps. Sammael supposed the chimes added something to their playing; what, he could not say. They beamed reverently up at Graendal when they saw her watching. Despite her own advice to listen, Graendal went on talking. "A peculiar place they come from. Women who can channel are required to marry the sons of women who can channel, and everyone of those bloodlines is marked with tattoos on their faces at birth. No one with the markings is allowed to marry anyone without; any child of such a union is killed. Tattooed males are killed in their twenty-first year in any case, and cloistered before, ignorant even of how to read."
So she had come back to it after all. She truly must think he was simple. He decided to plant a small barb of his own. "Do they bind themselves like criminals?"
A look of puzzlement flashed across her face and was hastily suppressed. Plainly she had not reasoned it out; there was no reason she should. Few people in their time had ever committed one violent crime, let alone more. Before the Bore, at least. She did not admit her ignorance, of course. There were times when it was best to hide lack of knowledge, but Graendal often carried the practice to a fault. That was why he had mentioned it; he knew it would dig at her, and serve her right for the useless shreds she doled out.
"No," she said as if she had understood. "The Ayyad, as they call themselves, live in their own small towns, avoiding everyone else, and supposedly never channel without permission or orders from the Sh’botay or Sh’boan. In fact, they are the real power, and the reason the Sh’botay and Sh’boan only rule seven years." Rich laughter bubbled up in her for a moment. She herself had always believed in being the power behind the power. "Yes, a fascinating land. Too far from the center to be of any use for many years, of course." She made a slight, dismissive gesture, fluttering beringed fingers. "There will be plenty of time to see what can be made of it after the Day of Return."

Landro
11-08-2011, 02:26 PM
I think Taim being clueless about swords and having contempt for them actually is a good indicator he could be Be'lal.

Think about it. If you are a Forsaken who is probably also the greatest swordsman alive at the time, and you are trying to take on the role of another man, wouldn't you need to hide your skill with the sword? There are a couple of reasons for this.

First, Rand had fought Be'lal recently at the end of TDR. Be'lal was clearly better with the sword and toyed with Rand. If they were to spar with swords, and Be'lal accidentally showed his elite status, that tingling sense in the back of Rand's mind (telling him to kill Taim) could develop into full realization that Taim is really Be'lal.

Second, I would assume that Bashere would know whether Taim used or had any skill with swords, having hunted him. If Be'lal were to manifest his true skill with swords, wouldn't it also arouse further suspicion with Bashere?

If Be'lal caught and dispatched Taim in order to take his place, it is likely that he would have interrogated him in order to make himself a true replacement (like Halima interrogated Cabriana). That would be the source of his knowledge about Taim and his doings (the Saladeans, skill with swords, etc.), which would help him to handle doubters.

Remember, Taim later dismissed Rand's sword instructor from the Black Tower. He says it is because they don't need swords, but could it be that it is really because he knows he can teach them better? Maybe part of the secret lessons to his inner circle include master level sword lessons.

When Rochaid and co were sent after Rand in Far Madding they clearly had little skill with swords. And besides, I believe Taim is Morridin

greatwolf
11-09-2011, 06:35 PM
Well, we have Graendal's POV in LoC:

Yeah but the thing is 7years as ruler and another 7 as consort makes 14. That's likely 14years past adolescence and the time to channel. Unless the selected candidate is shielded, and the shield maintained through the years, they'll definitely channel and very likely will be mad before the 14 years are over.

They'll have to pick a candidate that has not channeled up to time of maturity (or maybe shield prospects earlier -dunno) and as mentally stable as possible. At least I don't see how else they can go about it.

But it should work for the ayyad. The call themselves servants of the throne while they're actually keeping an eye on the rulers and running things. They maintain a strict police state and keep all channelers under control. They also get a neat solution to the problem of the taint without culling the populace.

The fact that they run the society is just an added bonus. So's the fact that the can have a stud when they feel like.

Taim hasn't gone up to 14 years, but he's been channeling long enough to make it quite likely he had some sort of protection against the madness quite a while back.

The Unreasoner
11-10-2011, 05:31 AM
South Park's Thansgiving special may shed some light on the Taim as Be'lal issue.

Enigma
11-10-2011, 01:10 PM
Yeah but the thing is 7years as ruler and another 7 as consort makes 14. That's likely 14years past adolescence and the time to channel. Unless the selected candidate is shielded, and the shield maintained through the years, they'll definitely channel and very likely will be mad before the 14 years are over.

I don't have the Guide with me at the moment but are the Emperess & Emperor in Shara chosen from the channelers. I was under the impression that the channelers live in their own community and had tatooes on their faces. The males were kept ignorent, not able to read or write and killed at a certain young age or younger if they showed signs of channelling. They were effectivly breeding stock and not much more.

The women were only suppost to channell on command but its suggested they are the power behidn the throne. There was nothing to say that the Emperor and Empress could channell. In fact I think Graendal kidnapped them and it might be a bit of a risk to keep channelers as pet even shielded and under heavy compulsion.

greatwolf
11-12-2011, 04:40 PM
I don't have the Guide with me at the moment but are the Emperess & Emperor in Shara chosen from the channelers. I was under the impression that the channelers live in their own community and had tatooes on their faces.

Yes, that has been posted.

Well, we have Graendal's POV in LoC:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOC:6-Threads Woven of the Shadow
The very dark man and woman had come to the foot of the dais with their peculiar harps. Sammael supposed the chimes added something to their playing; what, he could not say. They beamed reverently up at Graendal when they saw her watching. Despite her own advice to listen, Graendal went on talking. "A peculiar place they come from. Women who can channel are required to marry the sons of women who can channel, and everyone of those bloodlines is marked with tattoos on their faces at birth. No one with the markings is allowed to marry anyone without; any child of such a union is killed. Tattooed males are killed in their twenty-first year in any case, and cloistered before, ignorant even of how to read."
So she had come back to it after all. She truly must think he was simple. He decided to plant a small barb of his own. "Do they bind themselves like criminals?"
A look of puzzlement flashed across her face and was hastily suppressed. Plainly she had not reasoned it out; there was no reason she should. Few people in their time had ever committed one violent crime, let alone more. Before the Bore, at least. She did not admit her ignorance, of course. There were times when it was best to hide lack of knowledge, but Graendal often carried the practice to a fault. That was why he had mentioned it; he knew it would dig at her, and serve her right for the useless shreds she doled out.
"No," she said as if she had understood. "The Ayyad, as they call themselves, live in their own small towns, avoiding everyone else, and supposedly never channel without permission or orders from the Sh’botay or Sh’boan. In fact, they are the real power, and the reason the Sh’botay and Sh’boan only rule seven years." Rich laughter bubbled up in her for a moment. She herself had always believed in being the power behind the power. "Yes, a fascinating land. Too far from the center to be of any use for many years, of course." She made a slight, dismissive gesture, fluttering beringed fingers. "There will be plenty of time to see what can be made of it after the Day of Return."


In fact I think Graendal kidnapped them and it might be a bit of a risk to keep channelers as pet even shielded and under heavy compulsion.

Without hesitation, she channeled again, drawing the full strength of the little ring. She did not need it all, or even most, but she wanted every advantage she could find. Attack her, would they! A net of Compulsion tightened on each of them before they could twitch.
She had spun the nets strong, for anger’s sake, nearly strong enough to do harm, and the women stood staring at her adoringly, eyes wide and mouths hanging open in adulation, intoxicated with worship. They were hers to command, now. If she told them to cut their own throats, they would. Suddenly Graendal realized that Moghedien was no longer embracing the Source. This much Compulsion might have shocked her into letting go. The servants by the door had not moved, of course.
"Now," she said a touch breathlessly, "you will answer my questions." She had a number, including who was this Moridin fellow, if there was such a man, and where had Cyndane come from, but one piqued her more than the rest. "What did you hope to gain by this, Moghedien? I may decide to knot those webs on you. You can pay for your game by serving me."

If she could do it to these two, I don't see her hesitating for the sharans.