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Verin Mathwin
09-08-2011, 02:22 PM
I don't know if this question has already been asked, but I don't feel like looking through all the posts on this thread to check. If so, sorry.

When the Green Man is talking about the eye of the world he said that it was made by 100 Aes Sedai, men and women working together. But isn't the largest circle 72 or something like that? Were they in a circle? Was 100 just a number thrown out there by the Green Man?

Terez
09-08-2011, 02:25 PM
I don't know if this question has already been asked, but I don't feel like looking through all the posts on this thread to check. If so, sorry.
We don't expect anyone to do that.

When the Green Man is talking about the eye of the world he said that it was made by 100 Aes Sedai, men and women working together. But isn't the largest circle 72 or something like that? Were they in a circle? Was 100 just a number thrown out there by the Green Man?
It may be that when someone in the circle died, then someone else jumped in. We don't know any specifics on how it was made, really, so it's hard to guess - but we do know that they all died eventually.

Verin Mathwin
09-08-2011, 02:31 PM
It may be that when someone in the circle died, then someone else jumped in. We don't know any specifics on how it was made, really, so it's hard to guess - but we do know that they all died eventually.

Can you do that with a circle? Just jump in to take someone's place? I guess women could do it. But suppose you have a circle of 26 women and 1 man and the man dies. The circle would automatically break right? Though they probably had more than the bare minimum number of men, but then again maybe not. How many man could they trust at that point?

Terez
09-08-2011, 02:37 PM
Can you do that with a circle? Just jump in to take someone's place?
I don't see why not.

I guess women could do it. But suppose you have a circle of 26 women and 1 man and the man dies. The circle would automatically break right?
They were probably prepared for that.

Though they probably had more than the bare minimum number of men, but then again maybe not. How many man could they trust at that point?
Only the young ones as yet untouched by the taint. We got some more info on that in Rand's trip through the crystal columns. (Though not much.)

Sarevok
09-08-2011, 02:37 PM
How many man could they trust at that point?

As long as a woman controls the circle, trust is not an issue.
Btw, does it say anywhere that it was one cirle? It could have been 2 or 3, for all we know.

Davian93
09-08-2011, 02:39 PM
I always assumed it was a continuity error by RJ and/or that the Circle of 72 was a retcon when he realized he wanted limits on circles later on.

Though I've always thought that he did the same thing with AS ages too (making them able to live far longer than he initially thought during tEotW).

Neither one has any basis in fact though and they are just opinions of mine.

Davian93
09-08-2011, 02:41 PM
As it was a pond of pure saidin, they probably had as many male AS in the circle as possible to make it...I doubt female AS are all that helpful in making saidin (have to assume the cleansing process was similar to Rand's idea of using Saidar as a filter to push out the taint...only the cost being the death of all the AS involved to create only a small "well" of purified OP.

jana
09-08-2011, 09:16 PM
Someshta tinkled

GonzoTheGreat
09-09-2011, 04:17 AM
When the Green Man is talking about the eye of the world he said that it was made by 100 Aes Sedai, men and women working together. But isn't the largest circle 72 or something like that? Were they in a circle? Was 100 just a number thrown out there by the Green Man?It may be that they formed a circle (whether of 72 or fewer), and that group made some sort of filter.
Then the male channelers who were not part of the circle started pushing saidin through the filter. Maybe spare female channelers then directed the resulting liquid saidin into the basin where it was to be stored; or maybe they were standing by to shield any males that went mad.

We don't expect anyone to do that.Actually, we all expect you to do that.
We don't expect anyone else to do it, though.

Enigma
09-09-2011, 05:58 AM
I believe that RJ was asked about the creation of the Eye once. I think the quesion was something along the lines of was the Eye a Well such as Caddy and Nynaeve have. RJ said it was something like a Well but that a Well was like making a flask or something where as the Eye was like storing liquid hydrogen at high pressure, or something like that. I'm not sure if he said anything more about the creation of the Eye but if anyone can dig out that interview it might shed more light on the matter.

Marie Curie 7
09-09-2011, 11:25 AM
I believe that RJ was asked about the creation of the Eye once. I think the quesion was something along the lines of was the Eye a Well such as Caddy and Nynaeve have. RJ said it was something like a Well but that a Well was like making a flask or something where as the Eye was like storing liquid hydrogen at high pressure, or something like that. I'm not sure if he said anything more about the creation of the Eye but if anyone can dig out that interview it might shed more light on the matter.

Yes, RJ did say that the Eye was like a Well...just a very BIG Well, but he didn't provide much additional information about how it was made:

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 23 January 2003, Washington DC Borders Books and Music - Soni reporting

Soni: So the Eye of the World is a well, right?

RJ: [pauses] Yes and no. It's in the same class of objects as a well, but on a different scale.

Soni: So could it be refilled by a male channeler?

RJ: No. Remember, lots of Aes Sedai died to make it.

Soni: To keep it pure.

RJ: That, among other things. Look, a normal well is like this water glass. [he gestures] The Eye is like a liquid nitrogen canister.

Soni: So are wells made with the opposite half of the power that they were meant to contain, like Rand did at Shadar Logoth?

RJ: [sly smile] No, they don't work like that.

kabkaba
09-12-2011, 01:08 PM
Does it say anywhere that those 100 people were working in a circle? They may just be working together and not necessarily in a circle.

Enigma
09-12-2011, 01:27 PM
Given what we saw of the cleansing it would make sense for the pool of saidin to be contained by saidir. One repells the other, Rand was very clear that if he used the male half on its own the conduit would not work.

However it was made does anyone have any idea of what need it was made to meet? Was it simply to give Rand something to find and to protect the Horn and the banner?

Secondly when was the Seal placed there. My understanding was all the seals were at one time in the keeping of the White Tower (hence the Keeper of the Seals title) but they were scattered and the knowledge of their location lost during one of the major wars. Why drop a seal into the well? There must have been easier hiding places to find that a place many have hunted for but few have ever found.

Davian93
09-12-2011, 01:32 PM
I would guess that the Seal was placed there at the time it was made and that there were prophecies involved that showed that the Dragon Reborn would eventually find/need the Eye...thus the Horn and Banner being there too.

They had to have some foreknowledge that it would be very important to the Dragon Reborn or they likely wouldn't have been willing to sacrifice their lives in the process of making it.

confused at birth
09-12-2011, 01:35 PM
My understanding was all the seals were at one time in the keeping of the White Tower (hence the Keeper of the Seals title) but they were scattered and the knowledge of their location lost during one of the major wars.

the tower might have claimed that but i dont think the seals had ever been anywhere close to the tower. the Aes Sedai might have been in charge a guarding the locations but how could Turak have had one if they had all been on the mainland to begin with. If Hawkwings armies had taken it to Seanchan i doubt it would have ended up in a private collection with no one knowing how imporant it was.

more likely Tar Valon gave that title to their leader because it had been the Aes Sedai's responsibility to protect them during the breaking and it would give them a link to their authority in the AoL. when some were found they sent Aes Sedai to watch over them in the towers name instead of risking gathering them all in the same place so that if the shadow made a play for them they could be moved in secret after the first one was lost.

which is probably how they lost, the locations of the ones we saw found on the mainland could have been down to the Aes Sedai Guards hiding them then dying before they could report the new hiding places to the tower. Well apart from the one from Taim because if he is a darkfriend it could have come from anywhere to be used as a way of gaining Rands trust or it could be a fake, we dont know if any of the forsaken know how to make a copy.

Weiramon
09-12-2011, 02:35 PM
Burn my soul, it would not be a surprise to hear that the Amyrlin lost the Seals during the Trolloc Wars. Tar Valon itself was probably sacked by Trollocs and Dreadlords.

confused at birth
09-12-2011, 02:41 PM
Burn my soul, it would not be a surprise to hear that the Amyrlin lost the Seals during the Trolloc Wars. Tar Valon itself was probably sacked by Trollocs and Dreadlords.

Everyone knows that Aes Sedai are incompetent at everything but lies so they could have lost them during the Dreadlords siege but if the trollocs got them why doesnt the shadow have them all?

unless there was only the one at Tar Valon which is the one Taim gave to Rand.

Zombie Sammael
09-12-2011, 02:57 PM
A potentially more interesting question, in my opinion, is how they were got away from Shayol Ghul in the first place. One would think that in order to be the focus point for whatever weave bound away the Dark One they would need to be present at the time of the sealing. If that's the case, and the Forsaken were all bound, the army of the Dragon defeated, and the Hundred Companions all mad, why aren't they all still just lying on the slopes of Shayol Ghul? Did somebody go and get them? Who?

confused at birth
09-12-2011, 03:04 PM
is how they were got away from Shayol Ghul in the first place

this could be as simple as they were put in someones pocket before they left for their 3PM kill family appointment.

or the survivors told people what had happened and the sane Aes Sedai launched an all out offensive to recover them before the shadow could regroup from the sealing.

then the breaking happens and they do as i said earlier and scatter them so that they cant all be taken at once if the breaking outlasts the Aes Sedai guarding them.

Enigma
09-12-2011, 05:31 PM
Everyone knows that Aes Sedai are incompetent at everything but lies so they could have lost them during the Dreadlords siege but if the trollocs got them why doesnt the shadow have them all?

If anyone remembers the WoT computer game, the plot revolved around an attack on the White Tower where some of the seals were stolen by forces of the Shadow. The intent was to try some ritual that would break the seals and the player's job was to stop them.

Now the game mechanics have almost no basis in the books. The player is an AS but she has a block and has to pick up ter'angreal almost like picking up guns to fight with.

I think RJ was invovled in shaping/suggesting the plot at least and we know that during the Trollock Wars Shadowspawn did breach the walls of Tar Valon thought that was hushed up.

As for how the seals were taken from SG when all the soldiers died and LTT and the companions went nuts? Someone was able to report, all be it in a garbled way what had happened. The taint takes everyone differently. Perhaps one of the companions was functioning enought to go back home and give clues of what happened before he started to rearrange the world. I'm thinking of something similar to the Asha'man who went mad and wanted to rearrange the palace to protect Min. He became child like but one could get scaps of info from someone like that.

Davian93
09-12-2011, 05:58 PM
LTT was a good enough military leader that he likely left an Op Plan stating what he and his 100 Companions were up to in the event that they were all lost. He probably also left word for the other leaders of the Light when he left as he would know by then that it would be too late to stop him either way. Hell, the Light probably very shortly sent a party to investigate what the hell he did with his 100 Companions as it was the key event of the Age. Think of it as similar to the AS sending residue readers to the site of the Cleansing immediately following that...only more organized with far more experienced AS involved.

Enigma
09-12-2011, 06:34 PM
LTT and the others believed that the strike was a one way trip and that at best they would not be comming back. They did it because they believed there was no other choice.

Given that, I think its reasonable to assume that they would have left notes, letters, AoL equivlent of emails for their family and loved ones telling them what they were going to do.

As for the light sending other forces to SG to check on them? I'm not so sure about that. At the time all the armies of the Light were fully committed to trying to hold back the Shadow's advance. We know that things began to fall apart for the Shadow after the sealing as the Shadow's General Staff were gone but it would have taken time for that to happen and time for the forces of the light to learn that a lot of the top dogs were gone. SG was still Shadow central and I wonder if the light could to there to check out what happened. They probably did not have an army to spare to send to SG at least until the divisions between Shadow generals began to fracture their offensive and any gateway to SG would probably be detected making it a suicide mission for a small group to go.

Davian93
09-12-2011, 06:38 PM
They wouldn't need an army...they could just send a couple of scouts to gate in and gate out...hell, they could have reversed the weaves to make them invisible. Odds are it was likely a sheet of glass type of place anyway with no Shadow forces present anyway.

confused at birth
09-12-2011, 08:03 PM
They wouldn't need an army...they could just send a couple of scouts to gate in and gate out...hell, they could have reversed the weaves to make them invisible. Odds are it was likely a sheet of glass type of place anyway with no Shadow forces present anyway.

Well it sort of depends on the shadows response to the attack. if someone forsaken strength seized control i would say they would have to fight it out to get them back.

If all the remaining high command are shell shocked standing around waiting for someone to give orders a few people could move in like looters after an earthquake. give 12 small groups a list of targets and drop them behind enemy lines then attack the front lines with everything you have left.

FelixPax
09-13-2011, 12:26 PM
As it was a pond of pure saidin, they probably had as many male AS in the circle as possible to make it...I doubt female AS are all that helpful in making saidin (have to assume the cleansing process was similar to Rand's idea of using Saidar as a filter to push out the taint...only the cost being the death of all the AS involved to create only a small "well" of purified OP.


In theory, females AS did not need male AS to create the Eye of the World, if they had used an item of the power akin to the Bowl of Winds. It drew saidin, with not a single male channeler present.

Davian93
09-13-2011, 02:51 PM
In theory, females AS did not need male AS to create the Eye of the World, if they had used an item of the power akin to the Bowl of Winds. It drew saidin, with not a single male channeler present.

Of course, we know for a fact that the DID use men so your point, such as it is, is irrelevant.

Yellowbeard
09-13-2011, 04:20 PM
LTT escaped SG after the raid, even being mad and all. He to have in order to have gotten home and performed the Kinslaying.

Chances are LTT had the seals on his person before, during, and after the raid on SG.

I've always envisioned that battle as LTT working with the seals solo while the companions and troops held a perimeter to protect him long enough to finish the job. When he finished, and the DO tainted the source, LTT and the companions would have been incapacitated or otherwise made ineffective combatants, and the rank and file soldiers would have then been wiped out.

LTT and at least some surviving companions WERE able to escape though as the Kinslaying was after the battle obviously and Strike at Shayol Ghul also records that surviving Companions did leave there and go on rampages.

Once LTT was back, the seals would have either stayed with him, or been put into a secure location by the sane leaders of the light.

Then they were simply lost one way or another later during the Breaking. After the Breaking, as the geography of the planet was totally transformed, the seals could literally have been anywhere...the Waste, Randland, Seanchan, Isle of Madmen,...anywhere.

I'm sure the surviving AS and others aware of their existence and importance would have then gone in search of them, and they could have then ended up being found, lost, found again...etc.

GonzoTheGreat
09-13-2011, 04:27 PM
LTT didn't do it on his own:
Letter to Paul Ward from RJ - March 2000

Q: (paraphrased) How did the 100 Companions link to make the seals on the DO's prison?
RJ: ... they did not do it linked. They worked together individually, which made it more difficult, and that is part of the reason the seals have weakened so quickly. I never meant to imply linking. It is possible for large numbers to do a large project without linking, although it is more easily done in a circle.

Zombie Sammael
09-13-2011, 04:29 PM
LTT didn't do it on his own:

That doesn't mean (necessarily) that they didn't "work together" by protecting LTT while he did the important stuff.

FelixPax
09-13-2011, 05:46 PM
Of course, we know for a fact that the DID use men so your point, such as it is, is irrelevant.

Readers only know female Aes Sedai intended to link in a circle with male Aes Sedai to create the Eye of the World. It never was shown, only implied.

Assumptions can be incorrect.


(Fact) If the Eye of the World wasn't created, Rand al'Thor wouldn't know what untainted saidin felt like, versus the tainted saidin.

(Theory) If the Eye of the World wasn't created, the Heroes of the Horn would not have followed Rand al'Thor, Matrim, Perrin, Hurin commands at Falme. Why not? Because the Heroes claimed to need either that Banner hidden at the Eye of the World or the Dragon there. Only the Banner was with the four of them. Valan Luca was elsewhere.

Crispin's Crispian
09-13-2011, 06:43 PM
Sorry, Felix. Based on all our available knowledge (Someshta), both men AND women were involved, and linked.

"I will not go in with you," the Green Man said. The butterflies around him swirled as if they shared some agitation. "I was set to guard it long, long ago, but it makes me uneasy to come too close. I feel myself being unmade; my end is linked with it, somehow. I remember the making of it. Some of the making. Some." His hazelnut eyes stared, lost in memory, and he fingered his scar. "It was the first days of the Breaking of the World, when the joy of victory over the Dark One turned bitter with the knowledge that all might yet be shattered by the weight of the Shadow. A hundred of them made it, men and women together. The greatest Aes Sedai works were always done so, joining saidin and saidar, as the True Source is joined. They died, all, to make it pure, while the world was torn around them. Knowing they would die, they charged me to guard it against the need to come. It was not what I was made for, but all was breaking apart, and they were alone, and I was all they had. It was not what I was made for, but I have kept the faith." He looked down at Moiraine, nodding to himself. "I have kept faith, until it was needed. And now it ends."

Also...



(Theory) If the Eye of the World wasn't created, the Heroes of the Horn would not have followed Rand al'Thor, Matrim, Perrin, Hurin commands at Falme. Why not? Because the Heroes claimed to need either that Banner hidden at the Eye of the World or the Dragon there. Only the Banner was with the four of them. Valan Luca was elsewhere.

You're incorrect again, Felix.

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. "I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself. We will drive these invaders out for you." His warhorse pranced, and he looked around, frowning. "Something is wrong here. Something holds me." Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. "You are here. Have you the banner?" A murmur ran through those behind him.
"Yes." Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon's banner. It filled his hands and hung almost to his stallion's knees. The murmur among the heroes rose.
"The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters," Artur Hawkwing said. "You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon." Hurin made a faint sound as if his throat had seized.

A few things to note:

1) Hawkwing recognizes Rand as Lews Therin reborn. Do you dispute that Lews Therin was the Dragon?

2) Hawkwing twice notes that Rand is there, in reference to the Heroes ability to act.

3) Hawkwing notes, finally, that the Heroes must follow the banner AND the Dragon, not either or. Moreover, his comments to Rand about "you are here" make no sense if Rand is not the Dragon (Reborn).

The Heroes followed the Dragon. Or was Valan Luca hiding out nearby?

kabkaba
09-14-2011, 10:06 AM
Sorry, Felix. Based on all our available knowledge (Someshta), both men AND women were involved, and linked.



Involved but not necessarily linked.

Davian93
09-14-2011, 10:10 AM
Involved but not necessarily linked.

Somestha's comment of "all the greatest accomplishments were done together" pretty much means linking. Occam's Razor and all that.

Add in the fact that the female AS needed to find males not really affected by the taint and it even implies that they needed a man to lead the circle...otherwise, his sanity wouldn't matter as he wouldnt have any control on the circle anyway. They needed male channelers they could trust in a circle...a tough task after the taint.

The Unreasoner
09-14-2011, 10:21 AM
Somestha's comment of "all the greatest accomplishments were done together" pretty much means linking. Occam's Razor and all that.

I don't know about that. Inevitably, when linking, the circle will show bias towards one style of weaving over the other. If a man and a woman were entirely on the same page and could perfectly work together, they could remain unlinked: greater total power, diversified competence, and multiple active channelers. I agree that the Eye was probably done by a link, but everything we know suggests that there is more potential without one. A situation where the men and women are so in tune with one another may be rare, bordering on impossible, but a circle is not a theoretical upper bound for awesomeness.

Crispin's Crispian
09-14-2011, 11:11 AM
I don't know about that. Inevitably, when linking, the circle will show bias towards one style of weaving over the other. If a man and a woman were entirely on the same page and could perfectly work together, they could remain unlinked: greater total power, diversified competence, and multiple active channelers. I agree that the Eye was probably done by a link, but everything we know suggests that there is more potential without one. A situation where the men and women are so in tune with one another may be rare, bordering on impossible, but a circle is not a theoretical upper bound for awesomeness.

Oh c'mon. Are you really going to split such fine hairs? I'm glad you agree it was a link, though.

Someshta says:

A hundred of them made it, men and women together. The greatest Aes Sedai works were always done so, joining saidin and saidar, as the True Source is joined.


It's not in the same sentence, but is it really worth arguing about?

Enigma
09-14-2011, 06:06 PM
Add in the fact that the female AS needed to find males not really affected by the taint and it even implies that they needed a man to lead the circle...otherwise, his sanity wouldn't matter as he wouldnt have any control on the circle anyway. They needed male channelers they could trust in a circle...a tough task after the taint.

Its not a question of who would lead the circle but could they get a male AS to link with them. A sane male channeler who was aware of the plan and had volunteered can link with them but an insane male might not. We know that a large enough circle can draw in a woman even against her will but no circle can drawn in a male against his will. One of the AS commented on linking, I think to the Windfinders, and said that it was an area of research after the breaking to try to deal with insane male channlelers i.e. drawn them into a link but it could not be done hence the gentling approach.

FelixPax
09-14-2011, 06:21 PM
Sorry, Felix. Based on all our available knowledge (Someshta), both men AND women were involved, and linked.

Yes, Someshta does speak of females & males creating the Eye of the World. Good Point. Thanks for the quotation. Too bad Someshta isn't a channeler of the One Power.



Note to Readers, tangents from Thread Topic began to occur at this point.


Oh c'mon. Are you really going to split such fine hairs? I'm glad you agree it was a link, though.

Explain who placed Callandor at the Stone in Tear?

Egwene al'Vere deduced that both Saidar and Saidin were used to placed Callandor (TDR book).

Same group as those who created the Eye of the World? Or a small group of Aes Sedai who broken off? A group of Aes Sedai perhaps who included Mordaine, Narisse and Dermon?

Callandor was set to be released by Rand al'Thor soul curiously.

Yet years later a dark blue eyed Aes Sedai claims:

“Whichever of us comes to you will lead the Aiel?”

“No.” The word came thin as a whisper, but strong enough to fill every ear. It came from the dark eyed Aes Sedai sitting in her carved chair with a blanket across her legs as if she felt cold under the broiling sun. “That one will come later,” she said. “The stone that never falls will fall to announce his coming. Of the blood, but not raised by the blood, he will come from Rhuidean at dawn, and tie you together with bonds you cannot break. He will take you back, and he will destroy you.”


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 25 "The Road to the Spear" -- Mandein point of view & Rand al'Thor point of view

Tricky Prophecies, with multiply meanings, persons, groups, bonds and events.


These three Aes Sedai learned of a misconception about the Dragon's or Snake's identity very late in life, if one goes by Dermon's claims below:

“It is our purpose,” Dermon replied calmly. “For long years we searched for this place, and now we prepare it, if not for the purpose we once thought. We do what we must, and keep faith.”


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 25 "The Road to the Spear" -- Mandein point of view & Rand al'Thor point of view





You're incorrect again, Felix.


"The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters," Artur Hawkwing said. "You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon." Hurin made a faint sound as if his throat had seized.


The Great Hunt


Tell me, how many periods does Artur Hawkwing use in the bolded text?

Two:

...but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.

There are Two objects the Heroes of the Horn of Valere will "follow": One is the Banner. One is the Dragon.


A few things to note:

1) Hawkwing recognizes Rand as Lews Therin reborn. Do you dispute that Lews Therin was the Dragon?

It's more subtle than that. L.T.T. was proclaimed publicly the Dragon in the 2nd Age, however L.T.T. was not the true Dragon soul of the 2nd Age (privately).


Charn did not claim L.T.T was the Dragon in his stories, that's a clue something else truly occurred during the 2nd Age.


The soldiers fascinated him, men and Ogier, the way a colorful poisonous snake might. They killed. His father’s greatfather, Charn, claimed there had been no soldiers once, but Coumin did not believe it. If there were no soldiers, who would stop the Nightriders and the Trollocs from coming to kill everyone? Of course, Charn claimed there had not been any Myrddraal or Trollocs then, either. No Forsaken, no Shadowwrought. He had many stories he claimed were from a time before soldiers and Nightriders and Trollocs, when he said the Dark Lord of the Grave had been bound away, and no one knew his name, or the word “war.” Coumin could not imagine such a world; the war had been old when he was born.

He enjoyed Charn’s stories even if he could not make himself believe, but some earned the old man frowns and scoldings. Like when he claimed to have served one of the Forsaken, once. Not just any Forsaken, but Lanfear herself. As well say he had served Ishamael. If Charn had to make up stories, Coumin wished he could say he had served Lews Therin, the great leader himself. Of course, everyone would ask why he was not serving the Dragon now, but that would be better than the way things were. Coumin did not like the way citizens looked at Charn when he said that Lanfear had not always been evil.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26 "The Dedicated" -- Charn point of view & Rand point of view


Charn served Mierin, before the Bore was Drilled. Charn survived. Charn in all likelihood knew who the Dragon's soul truly was, in the 2nd Age. Beidomon.

Who did Charn serve, after Mierin took on the self-created name of Lanfear? Beidomon?


Think about how old Charn was, when the Bore was re-sealed in the 2nd Age. He went from serving Mierin before the Bore was drilled, to a great grandfather. Beidomon would have aged another 80 to 100 years too--if not more. (Charn decided to marry at his twenty-fifth naming day. Naming Day concept & usage creates some uncertainty.) Yet both Mierin and Beidomon were working together on the project to drill the Bore. Was the Bore re-sealed by a man, towards the end of his natural lifespan? The same man, who accidental drilled the Bore in the first place? Beidomon.


Who did Charn give an Oath to serve?


With the first spurt of fire, Charn broke into a run toward the Collam Daan, but he knew he was too late. He was sworn to serve Aes Sedai, and he was too late. Tears rolled down his face as he ran.

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26 "The Dedicated" -- Charn point of view & Rand point of view

Not a single Aes Sedai, but plural Aes Sedai too.



2) Hawkwing twice notes that Rand is there, in reference to the Heroes ability to act.


Hawkwing never claims Rand is the Dragon.


In fact, Hawkwing is extremely tricky in his usage of the word "our".


“The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,” Artur Hawkwing said.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 47 "The Grave Is No Bar to My Call" -- Rand point of view; with Matrim Cauthon, Hurin, Perrin Aybara and the Heroes of the Horn of Valere.

More than ONE meaning of "our" is used simultaneously by the author Robert Jordan here.


"Our" as in to mean two or more individuals
"Our" as in a collective group

As in:


Rand and Lews Therin
The Dragon soul halters Rand and Lews Therin
The Dragon soul halters Matrim Cauthon and Artur Hawkwing
Matrim Cauthon, Rand al'Thor and Hawkwing
Rand al'Thor, Matrim Cauthon, Perrin Aybara and Hurin
All of Earth.
Birgitte, Matrim Cauthon
Birgitte, Dragon's soul {Wind metaphor: "Her cloak billowed on an arid gust of wind." TSR, Ch.39}
Birgitte, Nynaeve al'Meara
Birgitte, Elayne
The Heroes of the Horn of Valere and All of Earth's Beings.

Min and Matrim Cauthon (as in future newly weds)



What rhymes with "our"?

ar, are, bar, barre, car, char, czar, far, gar, gnar, guar, jar, Lar, mar, moire, noir, par, parr, Parr, R, Saar, scar, spar, SPAR, star, tar, tahr, yare

Source: www.m-w.com

Rhymes matter because Robert Jordan wrote to a rhythm, he claimed previously in interviews.


(Theory) Cauthon is to be, the publicly proclaimed Dragon at the end of the 3rd Dragon, the start of the 4th Age (when Rand gives up his claims). This distinction is important, 'publicly proclaimed'. Neither Matrim Cauthon nor Rand al'Thor is the true Dragon reborn's soul.


These distinctions are fairly obvious if one views Stars represent Souls.


The Dragon or Snake (Westlands & Aiel names for)
The Shield
The Plowman


Three different Stars, Three different Souls.
Mat Cauthon and Egwene al'Vere each speak of these three Star names.

It's point out repeatedly throughout the series, who can locate Stars. Windfinder's as collective group, orient themselves by Starlight. Verin's library rooms possess ample numbers of Star Constellation Charts. Bayle Domon and his Second, navigate by Star Light in the Ocean. Tuatha'an like Raen look to the Skies for Omens of the future.


3) Hawkwing notes, finally, that the Heroes must follow the banner AND the Dragon, not either or. Moreover, his comments to Rand about "you are here" make no sense if Rand is not the Dragon (Reborn).

Incorrect. Hawkwing uses two periods in two sentences, not one period in one sentence.



The Heroes followed the Dragon. Or was Valan Luca hiding out nearby?


Valan Luca was in the general area, based on:


Leya's 'Hunters' comments to Perrin, Moiraine. (TDR, Ch.3)
Cerandin and her three s'redit joined Luca's Circus, after Falme. (TFoH,Ch17)



Luca's general traveling outline since the Great Hunt book, is from Illian to:


(A big mystery between Illian to Cairhien. Possibly by Sea Folk ship to Tear & Haddon Mirk, Stedding Jenshin. Clue include a Bittern musician companion of the "Hunters'" at 'The Nine Rings Inn', and a non-channeling False Dragon in Haddon Mirk.)
(A mystery if Caemlyn was visited or not.)
Cairhien foregate
Cairhien
The Nine Rings Inn: so claims Mistress Madwen.
Ogier Stedding Tsofu
(A mystery if Tar Valon was visited or not.)
(A mystery if Green Man was visited or not.)
Shienar's capital
Fal Dara
Arafel
Kandor's capital
Saldaea
Almoth Plain
Tarabon
Amadicia
border of Samara, Ghealdin
Amadicia (south): (Nynaeve's Weather Sense of Men; Thom's comments)
Altara
near the border of Murandy (KoD book)



Luca's travel outline before arriving and leaving Illian, in the Great Hunt book is far more vague. Less certain. Only hints or clues seem to exist, not absolute certainty. Thus, in random order:


Tar Valon: Birthplace of Valan Luca, in a Ogier Grove with Tuatha'an Trumplets Blowing.
Stedding Shangtai: as a Tuatha'an Seeker (Loial comments, Rand POV)
Mayene: large snake found there, a metaphor for Luca (Nesune's comments to Verin, Cadsuane POV)
Ghealdin: location of a False Dragon, Logain.
Two Rivers, Emond's Field: as a Gleeman (Perrin POV memory, when he was a child still)
Caralain Grass
Aiel Waste or Three-Folds Land: Sand Badger's den is empty (Amys comments); Bair and Amys reaction upon hearing Elayne mention Valan Luca's name & Circus (Egwene al'Vere POV). Luca's visited more than once likely, based on Ila & Raen comments.
Shara southern port town(s): Sea Folk Wavemistresses comments about escaping Seanchan vessels to the East; suspension that Valan Luca killed or harmed individuals in Shara to escape Shara alive (a later reason he's cast out of Tuatha'an); one original reason to go to Shara for Luca is likely to seek Treesongs.
Seanchan southern continent: Plow metaphor is used; thus directly implying Valan Luca has visited that place previous to Aviendha & Rand. (Rand POV, with Aviendha); The origin and mix of Valan Luca's "Grand Traveling Show and Magnificent Display of Marvels and Wonders" likely came from his previous visit to Seanchan Empire. See High Lady Suroth Sabelle Meldarath comments of missing her personal Menagerie:

Such screens were considered vulgar, but Suroth liked animals. Unable to bring her menagerie with her across the Aryth Ocean, she had had the screens made to depict her two favorites. She had never taken kindly to being balked in anything.

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 1 "Seeds of Shadow" -- Suroth point of view, on the Sea Folk Island of Cantorin



Where has Valan Luca NOT been?


Aridhol. The lands of Aridhol. How is this known? The lack of a Plow metaphor mentioned by Perrin specifically.



Two days from the river the land changed to thickly forested hills, as gripped by the tail end of winter as everywhere else, and a day after that the hills flattened out again, the dense forest broken by glades, often a mile or more across. Snow still lay in hidden hollows , and the air was brisk of a morning, and the wind cold always. Nowhere did they see a road, or a plowed field, or chimney smoke in the distance, or any other sign of human habitation—at least, none where men still dwelt.

The Eye of the World, Chapter 23 "Wolfbrother" -- Perrin point of view, with Egwene al'Vere


Just AFTER this above scene's text, a foreshadowing of Moghedien's future doings AND the Tower's destruction is given.

Once the remains of tall stone ramparts encircled a hilltop. Parts of roofless stone houses stood inside the fallen circle. The forest had long swallowed it; trees grew right through everything, and spiderwebs of old creeper enveloped the big stone blocks. Another time they came on a stone tower, broken-topped and brown with old moss, leaning on the huge oak whose thick roots were slowly toppling it. But they found no place where men had breathed in living remembrance. Memories of Shadar Logoth kept them away from the ruins and hurried their footsteps until they were once more deep in places that seemed never to have known a human footstep.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 23 "Wolfbrother" -- Perrin point of view, with Egwene al'Vere



Valan Luca's coming to Tar Valon, is tied to The White Tower's destruction as a building.
Moghedien's plan to strike back at Elayne, Nynaeve, Birgitte is tied to either Caemlyn's Palace or Cairhien's Palace destruction in terms of imagery. At least here, the foreshadowing is open-ended as to the location(s) of Moghedien's spiderweb trap(s).



I could mention more about those two plot arcs, but I think that should be discussed in another thread.



================================================== ================================================== ==============


A related abstract observation: Charn; Charnal.


What word is related to Charn's name? Charnal.
Who uses that specific word in WoT? Min.


“This truly would be a charnel house then,” Min said.

Knife of Dreams, Chapter 20 "The Golden Crane" -- Rand al'Thor point of view, with ALOT of individuals in the scene

Who house would become a 'charnel house'? Lord Algarin of House Pendaloan.

Who's Lord Algarin alter-ego name in Tower of Midnight book? Emarin Pendaloan. Algarin's dead brother, who could channel.

Who's dwellings became charnel? Charn's inn at the end the 2nd Age; Lord Algarin Pendalpan's country estate, Algarin who is called Emarin in Towers of Midnight book.

What believe system do the Tinkers or Tuatha'an hold? They do not actively seek to channel the One Power, according to Verin Sedai.

Aisling Noon of the Green Ajah possesses a Tinker background. Liandrin of the Red Ajah possesses a background of one who's parents likely were 'Cast Out' of the Tuatha'an, to live in an city or village.

(Aisling Noon as King Easar Togita of Shienar's advisor, likely met Valan Luca in Fal Dara. Just after the Amyrlin Seat party & Ingtar's party left Fal Dara {TGH book}.)(Liandrin, her sister Rendra are one Ila and Raen's of Lost Ones.)


Assumptions


Tuatha'an belief of not seeking to channel the One Power, was previously associated with the Da'Shain Aiel at some point in their collective history.
Charn a Da'Shain Aiel individual, possessed the ability to channel but choose not to 'learn'.
Ability to channel is genetic according Robert Jordan, however I will assume that the distinction between Learner AND Sparker is also genetic too.
Algarin Pendalon is a Learner.
Emerin Pendalon was a Sparker. He agreed to be severed, according to Cadsuane's comments.


An Iffy Working Hypothesis: Lord Algarin Pendaloan or his brother Emerin Pendaloan is the re-born soul of Charn. The first, a man in this Age decides to learn how to channel the One Power, after it has been 'Cleansed'. The second, a man who decided as a true Tuatha'an would, to be severed from the saidin to avoid the (pre-Cleansing) Taint of the Dark One's compulsion.


Thus, the soul (Charn) who knew Beidomon during 2nd Age, has most likely already met Beidomon's soul in the 3rd Age. Translation: Algarin Pendaloan has previously met Tuatha'an Seeker Valan Luca at his estate.


The Pendaloan estate lands are near to Mayene, Stedding Shangtai, the Drowned Lands, a Pass to Three-Folds Lands, Tear's capital city, Haddon Mirk forest and Tzora location (2nd Age City turned to glass, a Sea Folk Island now).

A Tuatha'an Seeker could seek out an old minor Lord on the way to an Ogier Stedding. It's a question of location. Tuatha'an do not like villages, or cities. Pendaloan estate possesses neither, as it is a country estate.

Pendaloan House offers one thing few have in-depth knowledge of, in the Westlands: Sea Folk customs, society, songs, trading patterns, old knowledge.


I have assumed Valan Luca already possessed some knowledge of Ogier's society, customs, songs. Based on Raen & Ila comments to Perrin, Egwene in TEotW book. However the House of Pendaloan does have a decent knowledge of the Ogier too.


An Odd Fact:

The House of Pendaloan's colors of red, blue or yellow match the colors of Ila's livery.

A plump woman, as gray as Raen but smooth-cheeked still, came out of the wagon and paused on the steps at its back end, straightening a blue-fringed shawl on her shoulders. Her blouse was yellow and her skirt red, both bright. The combination made Perrin blink, and Egwene made a strangled sound.

Chapter 25 "The Traveling People" -- Perrin point of view; with Egwene, Elyas, Raen, Ila et la

Drafts along the corridors rippled the few tapestries on the walls, all in old styles and showing the wear of having been taken down and rehung many times. The manor house had grown like a rambling farmhouse rather than being built large, with additions added whenever the family’s fortunes and numbers waxed. House Pendaloan had never been wealthy, but there had been times they were numerous. The results showed in more than worn, old-fashioned wall hangings. The cornices were brightly painted, red or blue or yellow, but the hallways varied in width and height, and sometimes met at a slight skew. Windows that once had looked to the fields now looked down on courtyards, usually bare except for a few benches and placed purely to provide light. Sometimes there was no choice in getting from here to there except to take a roofed colonnade overlooking one of those courtyards. The columns were wooden more often than not, though bravely painted even where not carved.


Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 23 "Ornaments" -- Rand al'Thor point of view

How the imagery is described at the House of Pendaloan, is a clue for events in 'A Memory of Light' book.

From Fields to Courtyard to proverbial Storks being forced on to a Roof. Stork's are one of Cenn Buie's omens for good luck (TEoTW book). Rand, Matrim each have Stork associations.

It's parallels a similar scene where Egwene and Matrim Cauthon have a discussion overlooking a Courtyard with Gardener's (aka Seanchan Ogiers), at the Stone in Tear.


The common colors of the House of Pendaloan and the Earth Goddess character of Ila, are symbols for what is to come. Red. Yellow. Blue.


Yes, Ila is later also seen sporting a Green Shawl instead of Blue Shawl too.

fdsaf3
09-15-2011, 08:55 AM
A question (to try and get the discussion back on track a bit).

The banner referred to by Artur Hawkwing at the Battle of Falme was the one found in the Eye, correct? The one which had the image of the Dragon on it?

The reason I'm asking is because I'm wondering out loud what the Heroes would have done if Rand hadn't been there. Just hung out? Gone back to TAR?

Also, the Heroes' success in battle was directly tied to Rand's battle with Ishamael/Ba'alzamon. Is this a literal connection to the statement Hawkwing makes about "following the Dragon", or some other connection between Rand and the Heroes which I am unaware of?

GonzoTheGreat
09-15-2011, 09:02 AM
The banner referred to by Artur Hawkwing at the Battle of Falme was the one found in the Eye, correct? The one which had the image of the Dragon on it?Yep. Yep.

The reason I'm asking is because I'm wondering out loud what the Heroes would have done if Rand hadn't been there. Just hung out? Gone back to TAR?Dunno. Maybe.

Also, the Heroes' success in battle was directly tied to Rand's battle with Ishamael/Ba'alzamon. Is this a literal connection to the statement Hawkwing makes about "following the Dragon", or some other connection between Rand and the Heroes which I am unaware of?Dunno.

Glad to have been of service. :D

Crispin's Crispian
09-15-2011, 11:56 AM
Yes, Someshta does speak of females & males creating the Eye of the World. Good Point. Thanks for the quotation. Too bad Someshta isn't a channeler of the One Power.

As far as you know he isn't. But as far as the rest of us know, he was there at the creation of it, or in any case is the only being to have any kind of knowledge of how it was created. We have nothing close to contradictory evidence that linking wasn't used, nor that females worked alone. As such, the beat approach is to assume the obvious--men and women linked to create the Eye of the World.




Tell me, how many periods does Artur Hawkwing use in the bolded text?

Two:



There are Two objects the Heroes of the Horn of Valere will "follow": One is the Banner. One is the Dragon.


1. Tell me why it matters that there are two periods. There are two objects, yes, and punctuation does not matter, because Hawkwing uses the world "and." Moreover, the rest of the passage indicates he is talking about Rand, who is Lews Therin Reborn, who was the Dragon. There is no reason for Hawkwing to be tricksy.


2. Tell me why you have to indent things.


It's more subtle than that. L.T.T. was proclaimed publicly the Dragon in the 2nd Age, however L.T.T. was not the true Dragon soul of the 2nd Age (privately).

Nothing you have provided is any sort of positive evidence that Lews Therin Telamon was not the Dragon (in public and in private).

Was the Bore re-sealed by a man, towards the end of his natural lifespan? The same man, who accidental drilled the Bore in the first place? Beidomon.
Are you asking a question, or making a supposition? Do you have any evidence whatsoever that Beidomon sealed the Bore, or that Charn worked for him?


Hawkwing never claims Rand is the Dragon.

In fact, Hawkwing is extremely tricky in his usage of the word "our".

Are you actually this obtuse, or are you just trying to wriggle your way out of obvious evidence so that you can continue arguing your Valan Luca theory?

I think I know the answer. I just don't know why.


More than ONE meaning of "our" is used simultaneously by the author Robert Jordan here.

"Our" as in to mean two or more individuals
"Our" as in a collective group

As in:


Rand and Lews Therin
The Dragon soul halters Rand and Lews Therin
The Dragon soul halters Matrim Cauthon and Artur Hawkwing
Matrim Cauthon, Rand al'Thor and Hawkwing
Rand al'Thor, Matrim Cauthon, Perrin Aybara and Hurin
All of Earth.
Birgitte, Matrim Cauthon
Birgitte, Dragon's soul {Wind metaphor: "[I]Her cloak billowed on an arid gust of wind." TSR, Ch.39}
Birgitte, Nynaeve al'Meara
Birgitte, Elayne
The Heroes of the Horn of Valere and All of Earth's Beings.

Min and Matrim Cauthon (as in future newly weds)



What rhymes with "our"?



Rhymes matter because Robert Jordan wrote to a rhythm, he claimed previously in interviews.


(Theory) Cauthon is to be, the publicly proclaimed Dragon at the end of the 3rd Dragon, the start of the 4th Age (when Rand gives up his claims). This distinction is important, 'publicly proclaimed'. Neither Matrim Cauthon nor Rand al'Thor is the true Dragon reborn's soul.


Here's where you lost me. Well...here's where I truly decided that I should stop debating you and starting having a good time. The big part you're missing is that Rand al'Thor fulfilled most of the prophecies, and Mat hasn't really done jack shit in that arena. He has some serious catching up to do.

You know what rhymes with "Rand al'Thor'"? Nothing. That's because Rand is the only true Dragon.


These distinctions are fairly obvious if one views Stars represent Souls.

[INDENT]
The Dragon or Snake (Westlands & Aiel names for)
The Shield
The Plowman


Three different Stars, Three different Souls.
Mat Cauthon and Egwene al'Vere each speak of these three Star names.

It's point out repeatedly throughout the series, who can locate Stars. Windfinder's as collective group, orient themselves by Starlight. Verin's library rooms possess ample numbers of Star Constellation Charts. Bayle Domon and his Second, navigate by Star Light in the Ocean. Tuatha'an like Raen look to the Skies for Omens of the future.


I think any of the characters can locate stars, if there are no clouds. As long as it's night time. Well, the sun is a star. Whose soul is that? Someone really big, like Vanin. His name sounds suspiciously like Valan. Do you think Vanin is actually Valan Luca, just in hiding so he can give Mat the information he needs to pretend to be the Dragon Reborn?

Incorrect. Hawkwing uses two periods in two sentences, not one period in one sentence.
You are correct. But also your point is irrelevant.




stuff about Valan Luca and a bunch of other stuff.

tl;dr Also, far too tangential; dr

kabkaba
09-15-2011, 01:46 PM
Here's where you lost me. Well...here's where I truly decided that I should stop debating you and starting having a good time.

Most people arrive here some time and then start having a good time reading Felix's posts.

Crispin's Crispian
09-15-2011, 02:00 PM
I know. I usually start out with the good time, but I couldn't let some of the illogic slip by. Silly me. I'm an idealist.

kabkaba
09-15-2011, 02:15 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charnel_house
True reason why RJ named the Aiel in Rand's experience as Charn. He eventually wanted to make the Aiel's house a 'Charnel House'. This is so that Min can use the word and leave hints at the true nature of House of Algarin. It is a place for the true Dragon to gain important information. It is highly likely that modern English in our age retains that word from the second and third age.

Another important evidence about the true Dragon. What does Dragon rhyme with? - Beidomon. Lews Therin was intentionally given the third name of Telamon to rhyme with Dragon so that public will not know the true Dragon and to confuse them. Moreover it is logical that Dragon should travel in a Wagon. So Dragon is certainly related to peddlers, Tua'than and Menageries.

FelixPax
09-15-2011, 02:21 PM
1. Tell me why it matters that there are two periods. There are two objects, yes, and punctuation does not matter, because Hawkwing uses the world "and."

Poppycock. Artur Hawkwing's punctuation absolutely matters.

Do you completely understand what a Full Stop or a Period definition is? How about Clauses?



When does Hawkwing's use the word "And"? After claiming "we must follow the banner." Hawkwing tacks on "And the Dragon" after exclaiming "The banner is here". Artur Hawkwing never claims nor states that the Dragon is at Falme or in front of him (TGH, Chapter 47)


Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing’s gauntleted fist. “I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself. We will drive these invaders out for you.” His warhorse pranced, and he looked around, frowning. “Something is wrong here. Something holds me.” Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. “You are here. Have you the banner?” A murmur ran through those behind him.

“Yes.” Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon’s banner. It filled his hands and hung almost to his stallion’s knees. The murmur among the heroes rose.

“The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,” Artur Hawkwing said. “You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.” Hurin made a faint sound as if his throat had seized.




Moreover, the rest of the passage indicates he is talking about Rand, who is Lews Therin Reborn, who was the Dragon. There is no reason for Hawkwing to be tricksy.

Why does Artur Hawkwing state this, again Crispin's Crispian?


“Something is wrong here. Something holds me.”

That's a HUGE clue. A Ta'veren clue, if Birgitte's later words to Perrin are one indicator.

Recollect, the Artur Hawkwing at Falme cannot break the Precepts. Later on Birgitte's situation is unique, because she breaks a few of the Precepts. There are reasons for Birgitte breaking those Precepts later at least: The Wind (Dragon), Ta'veren influences among others. However Artur Hawkwing is not touched by the Wind at Falme.


The wind did not touch the heavy fog, only the banner.

The Eye of the World


Hawkwing was not tricky at Falme, you say?


Who is Artur Hawkwing's re-born soul on Earth, again? Soul re-born in a World of Flesh?


Matrim Cauthon. Literally at Falme two essence's of the very Soul were looking at one other. Cauthon to Hawkwing, same Soul. One essence in the TAR, one essence in the Flesh. This is one reason Hawkwing states this:


Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing’s gauntleted fist. “I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern.


Standing side by side, and working together are the re-born souls of Lews Therin (Rand) and Artur Hawkwing (Mat) in the Flesh at Falme. The man with the Sword of Justice in his gauntleted fist recognizes that fact.

Crispin's Crispian
09-15-2011, 02:59 PM
Poppycock. Artur Hawkwing's punctuation absolutely matters.

Do you completely understand what a Full Stop or a Period definition is? How about Clauses?



When does Hawkwing's use the word "And"? After claiming "we must follow the banner." Hawkwing tacks on "And the Dragon" after exclaiming "The banner is here". Artur Hawkwing never claims nor states that the Dragon is at Falme or in front of him (TGH, Chapter 47)


Let me sum this up for you, so that you can see how every person on earth except you understands the scene.

1) Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin."

2) The Heroes tease Rand about wanting to save Egwene, because they know that Lews Therin, the Dragon soul, has always had a weak spot for women. It's gotten him into some trouble before.

3) Hawkwing agrees that the Heroes would fight at Falme, but he can't. Something holds him.

4) He looks at Rand, recognizing Rand is the Dragon, so that part of the Pattern's need is being fulfilled. He even says, "You are here." You left that part out of your argument.

5) He thinks, "if the Dragon is here, why can't I move. Oh yes, we need the banner, too!"

Because the Heroes follow the banner. And the Dragon. They don't follow the banner only if the Dragon isn't there. That wasn't part of the equation and you're just trying to twist the language to make it seem like that's what he meant. There is zero evidence for this assertion.


Why does Artur Hawkwing state this, again Crispin's Crispian?
First, please call me Crispian. No need to be so formal.

Second, state what? You threw a quote from me in there, so I don't know if you're talking about my quote or the "something holds me" quote.

That's a HUGE clue. A Ta'veren clue, if Birgitte's later words to Perrin are one indicator.

A "ta'veren clue?" What does that mean?


There are reasons for Birgitte breaking those Precepts later at least: The Wind (Dragon), Ta'veren influences among others. However Artur Hawkwing is not touched by the Wind at Falme.
You'll have to explain that one better. The Wind is the Dragon, so because Hawkwing's clothes don't blow around, the Dragon is not there? Then what's blowing the banner? Furthermore, what are the implications of this for Halfmen, whose cloaks don't blow in the breeze either. Are you saying only Fades can kill the Dragon Reborn?

"Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time." So Valan Luca rides himself? I guess that explains a few things.

Hawkwing was not tricky at Falme, you say?

Who is Artur Hawkwing's re-born soul on Earth, again? Soul re-born in a World of Flesh?

Matrim Cauthon.
Now we're cooking. Mat Cauthon is Hawkwing Reborn?


Literally at Falme two essence's of the very Soul were looking at one other. Cauthon to Hawkwing, same Soul.
You're going to have to substantiate this a bit more. First, we know from Birgitte's comments that Heroes don't hang out in Tel'aran'rhiod when they're reborn, so that makes what you're saying impossible. Moreover, if it were possible, why isn't the Dream World essence of the Dragon soul there? Wouldn't it be easier if both essences could fight side by side?

[INDENT]Standing side by side, and working together are the re-born souls of Lews Therin (Rand) and Artur Hawkwing (Mat) in the Flesh at Falme. The man with the Sword of Justice in his gauntleted fist recognizes that fact.

So many indents! What is the deal with you and indenting?!

At least you acknowledge that Rand is Lews Therin reborn.

But as I understand you, Lews Therin was not the true Dragon.

Can you please, for the love of Tamyrlin, provide some proof of this? Anything other than flimsy or nonsense arguments about Beidomon and Charn? Something that gives even a vague clue that this may be the case? Something that provides even a pebble of weight against the kilotons of evidence that Lews Therin was the Dragon?

Crispin's Crispian
09-15-2011, 03:03 PM
Moreover it is logical that Dragon should travel in a Wagon. So Dragon is certainly related to peddlers, Tua'than and Menageries.
You sir, or madam, are a genius.

Juan
09-15-2011, 11:25 PM
If there's one eye. Shouldn't there be another eye? Maybe now that one eye is gone. The world is like a pirate. Has an eyepatch in the old eye. The other eye must still be around.... :rolleyes:

Rand al'Fain
09-16-2011, 12:54 AM
If there's one eye. Shouldn't there be another eye? Maybe now that one eye is gone. The world is like a pirate. Has an eyepatch in the old eye. The other eye must still be around.... :rolleyes:
Ar, ye maties!

As for the making, well, we'll learn of it eventually when the world gets back to that point again.:D

GonzoTheGreat
09-16-2011, 03:50 AM
So Mat will now be the one to wear the Eyepatch Of The World?

FelixPax
09-16-2011, 05:08 AM
You sir, or madam, are a genius.


Moreover it is logical that Dragon should travel in a Wagon. So Dragon is certainly related to peddlers, Tua'than and Menageries.


Chuckling...


Of course two future False Dragons have already done that!


An hour beyond the town a farmer gave them a ride in his half-empty haywain. Rand had been taken by surprise while lost in worry about Mat. Mat shielded his eyes from the sun with his hand, weak as the afternoon light was, squinting through slitted lids even so, and he muttered continually about how bright the sun was. When Rand heard the rumble of the haywain, it was too late already. The sodden road deadened sound, and the wagon with its two-horse hitch was only fifty yards behind them, the driver already peering at them.

To Rand’s surprise he drew up and offered them a lift. Rand hesitated, but it was too late to avoid being seen, and refusing a ride might fix them in the man’s mind. He helped Mat up to the seat beside the farmer, then climbed up behind him.

Alpert Mull was a stolid man, with a square face and square hands, both worn and grooved from hard work and worry, and he wanted someone to talk to. His cows had gone dry, his chickens had stopped laying, and there was no pasture worth the name. For the first time in memory he had had to buy hay, and half a wagon was all “old Bain” would let him have. He wondered whether there was any chance of getting hay on his own land this year, or any kind of crop.

“The Queen should do something, the Light illumine her,” he muttered, knuckling his forehead respectfully but absentmindedly.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 33 "The Dark Waits" -- Rand al'Thor point of view, with Mat Cauthon & farmer Alpert Mull

Haywain as in Wagon, Farm Cart.
The Shaido's carts for children & dolls are haywains.


Yet who'd have also guessed, there is a Star in the Night's Sky called a Haywain. Even an Innkeeper's daughter knows this!


One step into the room, she stopped and stared. Shelves lined the walls, except for one door that must lead to inner rooms and except for where maps hung, often in layers, and what seemed to be charts of the night sky. She recognized the names of some constellations—the Plowman and the Haywain, the Archer and the Five Sisters—but others were unfamiliar.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 21 "A World of Dreams" --Egwene al'Vere point of view, in Verin Sedai's library rooms



Even Deira perhaps expresses a dry sense of humor about a haywain:


“We will do what we must, Deira t’Bashere,” Dorindha said calmly; she was seldom anything but. “Hold to your courage, and we will arrive where we must go.”

“When you leap from a cliff,” Deira replied, “it is too late for anything but holding to your courage. And hoping there’s a haywain at the bottom to land in.” Her husband chuckled as though she was making a joke. She did not sound it.

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 7 "Pitfalls and Tripwires" -- Rand al'Thor point of view, in Caemlyn


This above passage, seems to parallel similar comments about cliff jumping & courage given by Birgitte, Elayne and a few other elsewhere in the series.


Oh yes, Verin's Star charts are consistent so far as Matrim Cauthon's memories agree with Egwene's earlier observations.


There was the Haywain, high overhead, and the Five Sisters, and the Three Geese pointing the way north. The Archer, the Plowman, the Blacksmith, the Snake. Aiel called that one the Dragon. The Shield, that some called Hawkwing’s Shield—that made him shift; in some of his memories he did not like Artur Paendrag Tanreall at all—the Stag, and the Ram. The Cup, and the Traveler with her staff standing out sharp.


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 22 "Heading South" -- Matrim Cauthon point of view





In terms of non-WoT sources, there are two VERY FAMOUS paintings with the name Haywain:

Englishman John Constable's work created in 1821 (http://www.thelilypad.co.uk/haywain.html) (below). Once exhibited with the name 'Landscape: Noon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hay_Wain)'

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/John_Constable_The_Hay_Wain.jpg/800px-John_Constable_The_Hay_Wain.jpg

Hieronymus Bosch's triptych panel painting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Haywain_Triptych) created after 1510, who's outside shutters are titled 'The Path of Life' (below).



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Haywain_left_wing_of_the_triptych_WGA.jpg/180px-Haywain_left_wing_of_the_triptych_WGA.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/Haywain_central_panel_of_the_triptych_WGA.jpg/431px-Haywain_central_panel_of_the_triptych_WGA.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Haywain_Right_Wing_of_the_triptych_WGA.jpg/182px-Haywain_Right_Wing_of_the_triptych_WGA.jpg

The Haywain Triptych is more akin to the whole WoT series, while Constable's work is perhaps more akin an individual scene in TEotW book with Matrim & Rand.

Whereas, the Beginning of the Fourth Age seems to have a feel of one of Hieronymus Bosch's other works titled 'The Garden of Earthly Delights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights)' (below).


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/The_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights_by_Bosch_High_Resol ution.jpg/800px-The_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights_by_Bosch_High_Resol ution.jpg

Sei'taer
09-16-2011, 08:04 AM
Luca: I've got it! I've got it! The pellet with the poison's in the vessel with the pestle; the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true! Right?
Lanfear: Right. But there's been a change: they broke the chalice from the palace!
Luca: They *broke* the chalice from the palace?
Lanfear: And replaced it with a flagon.
Luca: A flagon...?
Lanfear: With the figure of a dragon.
Luca: Flagon with a dragon.
Lanfear: Right.
Luca: But did you put the pellet with the poison in the vessel with the pestle?
Lanfear: No! The pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon! The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!
Luca: The pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon; the vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true.
Lanfear: Just remember that.

Crispin's Crispian
09-16-2011, 11:19 AM
OK, I can play, too.

A person who makes haywains is called a wainwright. Singer and composer Rufus Wainright, son of Loudon Wainright III, recently released an album called "All Days are Night: Songs for LuLu." LuLu being Valan Luca.

Now, if all days are night, it means one can see stars all the time (not just the sun, Vanin, which sounds like Vanir, which is another interesting parallel). Moreover, if all days are night, it means dawn never comes. So a day with two dawns must be truly momentous.

Therefore, Rand will balefire Valan Luca.

Crispin's Crispian
09-16-2011, 11:20 AM
Luca: I've got it! I've got it! The pellet with the poison's in the vessel with the pestle; the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true! Right?
Lanfear: Right. But there's been a change: they broke the chalice from the palace!
Luca: They *broke* the chalice from the palace?
Lanfear: And replaced it with a flagon.
Luca: A flagon...?
Lanfear: With the figure of a dragon.
Luca: Flagon with a dragon.
Lanfear: Right.
Luca: But did you put the pellet with the poison in the vessel with the pestle?
Lanfear: No! The pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon! The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!
Luca: The pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon; the vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true.
Lanfear: Just remember that.

In the immortal words of Valan Luca: "I drank what?"

Davian93
09-16-2011, 11:22 AM
In the immortal words of Valan Luca: "I drank what?"

Real Genius FTW!!!


~tried to rep but am unable to do so~

Juan
09-16-2011, 12:16 PM
We have hijacked this thread, but have made it better in the process.

FelixPax
09-16-2011, 03:26 PM
We have hijacked this thread, but have made it better in the process.

Wasn't my intention... although at least my previous posting of Hieronymus Bosch's triptych panel painting which includes a Wagon Wheel! :p ;)


http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs19/i/2007/226/1/a/Wheel_of_Time_Book_by_coRnflEks.jpg

Verin Mathwin
09-16-2011, 06:30 PM
Oh, Felix what would we ever do without your profound insights. You've explained so much to me about how the Eye was made....




....wait, what?

Wunderwaffe
09-17-2011, 09:09 AM
Felix is like the Dr. Gregory House of The Wheel of Time. I bet his eyes light up and stare off into space just before he develops his "brilliant" insights.

On a side note I'd love a leather bound edition of tWoT. It would look absolutely brilliant on my bookshelf.

skaywalker
09-19-2011, 02:11 AM
Felix is like the Dr. Gregory House of The Wheel of Time. I bet his eyes light up and stare off into space just before he develops his "brilliant" insights.


With the exception that House is right at the end, while Felix....

Wunderwaffe
09-20-2011, 08:51 AM
I thought it was clear that I was being sarcastic. Yet another reason why there needs to be a SARCASM FONT!

GonzoTheGreat
09-20-2011, 09:09 AM
Sarcasm does not exist, so such a font would be unnecessary, which is of course why it hasn't been invented, yet.

Tree Brother
09-21-2011, 03:05 PM
I would assume the Eye was made in a way similar to how Rand did the cleansing. But on a smaller scale.

FelixPax
09-21-2011, 07:27 PM
I would assume the Eye was made in a way similar to how Rand did the cleansing. But on a smaller scale.

Well, it's claim the makers of the Eye of the World died creating it. Rand & Nynaeve did not die 'Cleansing' saidin of the Taint.

For all we know the makers of the Eye of the World used Callandor a sa'angreal in the process.

Tree Brother
09-22-2011, 11:26 AM
Well, it's claim the makers of the Eye of the World died creating it. Rand & Nynaeve did not die 'Cleansing' saidin of the Taint.

For all we know the makers of the Eye of the World used Callandor a sa'angreal in the process.

Well, this is of course all conjecture :). One could ask "Where did the taint go, when creating the Eye" the answer could point to the death of the Eye's creators. Or maybe not.

We do know how the cleansing was done. I was just commenting that the Eye may have been made in a similar way. Perhaps filtering pure saidin through saidar, with the taint washing into all the chanellers present. All conjecture of course.

Enigma
09-22-2011, 06:28 PM
Was there not a quote by the Green man that went something along the lines of "they they (the Aes Sedai) died to make it (the Eye) pure", so it would make sense that the AS drew off the taint into their own bodies.

If they took in enought pure taint in one go it would kill. As we know after madness comes a rotting slow death.

GonzoTheGreat
09-23-2011, 04:08 AM
Yep:
"I will not go in with you," the Green Man said. The butterflies around him swirled as if they shared some agitation. "I was set to guard it long, long ago, but it makes me uneasy to come too close. I feel myself being unmade; my end is linked with it, somehow. I remember the making of it. Some of the making. Some." His hazelnut eyes stared, lost in memory, and he fingered his scar. "It was the first days of the Breaking of the World, when the joy of victory over the Dark One turned bitter with the knowledge that all might yet be shattered by the weight of the Shadow. A hundred of them made it, men and women together. The greatest Aes Sedai works were always done so, joining saidin and saidar, as the True Source is joined. They died, all, to make it pure, while the world was torn around them. Knowing they would die, they charged me to guard it against the need to come. It was not what I was made for, but all was breaking apart, and they were alone, and I was all they had. It was not what I was made for, but I have kept the faith." He looked down at Moiraine, nodding to himself. "I have kept faith, until it was needed. And now it ends."