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WinespringBrother
09-11-2011, 04:36 PM
First, pop over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5669)for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

This week, we're discussing Alanna Mosvani.

By virtue of a seeming spontaneous action in bonding Rand without his informed consent, Alanna became both a major player in the series and a despised figure in the fandom. Questions remain regarding this, such as was it something she did on her own without some kind of compulsion from Verin, will the bond ultimately turn out to be used against Rand in a critical moment, and will she ever be able to mitigate this evil act? There is no indication that she is a Darkfriend, but her act may end up being used against Rand, due to the nature of the warder bond.

It is also curious that she was Verin's companion on her trip to the Two Rivers, seeing as how they are of different ajahs, and with seeming different agendas. Did she have a hidden reason for that trip?

And why did she disappear from the Stone of Tear, leaving behind only an empty ink bottle? Did she get a warning from Verin of Trolloc incursions to her homeland of Arafel and subsequently Travel there, as seems to be the case, based on the clues we have? And what will be her ultimate fate?

Zombie Sammael
09-11-2011, 05:23 PM
Is there anyone who didn't get a letter from Verin? It's starting to seem like it wouldn't be surprising if the next book opened with Moridin opening a note reading: "Dear Elan Morin, have betrayed shadow. Ha! Signed, Verin Mathwin Aes Sedai."

The Unreasoner
09-11-2011, 09:10 PM
I think any significance Alanna has is largely dependent on Verin. If Alanna's role as bondholder of the Dragon is important and was predetermined, it was predetermined only after her status as travel companion to Verin was certain. It may be the case that any companion of Verin in the Two Rivers would have become bondholder. Even a Red (who could spontaneously conclude as Tarna did) or another non-Green already with a Warder. Bonding against the man's will is against custom just as going against the Ajah standard in quatity. And both can be broken on the spot.

Alanna was probably just sent with Verin by the Wheel because she was the best/simplest candidate. She would require fewer mental backflips to bond Rand, could help out in Emond's field with her Warders and expertise, and was not trusted by Egwene-which provided additional wariness on approaching Rand (the lack of communication between Egwene and Rand serves a purpose, possibly rendered slightly more likely by this wariness). Compulsion seems to be behind the bonding, especially with Verin asking Alanna 'why' with legitimate curiosity. Hearing Alanna's rationalization would help her further understand the nature of the weave and the human mind, always a plus for a Brown. It also gave specific insight into Alanna's motivation and thought process, which could potentially ease future manipulation. And Verin may have wanted the precise wording for clues as to whether or not Alanna was a Darkfriend. Verin's note that the question of 'why' should have been a surprising one is interesting however. In Elza's PoVs, her reasoning for swearing to Rand has a persistent presence in her thoughts. Elza would likely not be surprised by the question of 'why'. Or at least would have a response immediately available. This may indicate that Alanna was to bond him anyway (presumably to locate him after his kidnapping). Ta'veren simply forced the action before she needed to find a motive. I do think that the bondholder=Verin's companion, not the bondholder=Alanna.

confused at birth
09-11-2011, 10:16 PM
Bonding against the man's will is against custom just as going against the Ajah standard in quatity

now i know that i should be the last to question anyone else on grammar but i have now idea what you were trying to say here:confused:

apart from that line i agree with most of what you said apart from Egwene. I cant see how Egwene would effect Alanna's choice, at this point Egwene was still a nobody to her.

Kimon
09-11-2011, 10:22 PM
Verin's POV in the chapter just following the bonding scene doesn't really give the impression that Verin was behind the bonding, only that she was making use of it after the fact, along with Owein's death and Alanna's subsequent emotional disarray, to make Alanna "more amenable to guidance".

Here's the noteworthy passage:

For the first time since Alanna had begun to let her emotions over Owein creep to the surface, Verin was glad that she had held them in long enough to become so volatile. In her raveled condition, Alanna was bound to be more amenable to guidance, and Verin knew exactly how some of those questions had to be answered. She did not think Alanna would like some of those answers. Best not to let her learn them until it was to late to change them.

I suppose that those who argue in favor of Verin's influence read this as meaning that Alanna had been more resistent to her compulsion earlier, and that hopefully she would be "more amenable" to further manipulation now, but this certainly seems to read more like taking advantage of the situation after the fact, rather than creating the situation in the first place.

Concerning the mentioned "questions", likely the most important of these (they are explicitly given in the sentences just preceding) were what their stance should be concerning the rebels (Alanna seemed disgusted by the very idea of a rebellion against the Tower, so likely would have been inclined to support Elaida and the Tower unless guided to making the right decision), whether they should try to deliver Rand to the Tower or the rebels, and whether one or both (with the both of course perhaps requiring some nudging to accomplish considering Alanna's obvious green uber-possessivist stance concerning her warders - which we see later even in her interactions with Cadsuane) should try to take Moiraine's place at his side.

There are however earlier potential signs of lack of compulsion, and of this being Alanna's own decision. Alanna, as Egwene noted, had been showing far too much interest in all three boys, but Rand especially, all the way back in TGH in Fal Dara. Perhaps Verin gave her a nudge that early, either initiating that entire line of thought, or merely reinforcing it, but then how do we explain Perrin. Alanna quite clearly had also been thinking of bonding him, yet along with Faile's threats, Verin also warned Perrin to be careful around Alanna. Are we to think that Verin was behind the intent to bond Rand, but not the desire to bond Perrin?

Rand al'Fain
09-11-2011, 10:22 PM
Is there anyone who didn't get a letter from Verin? It's starting to seem like it wouldn't be surprising if the next book opened with Moridin opening a note reading: "Dear Elan Morin, have betrayed shadow. Ha! Signed, Verin Mathwin Aes Sedai."
"P.S. You smell like week old fishguts!"

But its obvious that Alanna got an important (and urgent) letter from Verin, and it really seems like it would have to do with Arafel. However, I don't see what good one Aes Sedai could do against a horde of countless thousands. Even 50,000 well trained and well led men supported by 100 Asha'man were overwhelmed by the vanguard of that force. It maybe that Verin revealed the mastermind/general's whereabouts behind the Trolloc force. It could even be a backup plan for Caemlyn, as you'd only get so far in a head long battle against the trolloc hordes coming out of the Blight. However in a city like Caemlyn, she could be of much more use. Hell, she could even be the reason that the people of Merrilor's Field learn about Caemlyn.

confused at birth
09-11-2011, 10:25 PM
This reads more like taking advantage of the situation after the fact, rather than creating the situation in the first place.

or it could be that she was behind it but wanted to make sure of what Alanna was going to do now that she had him trapped.
You can get someone to do something but not be sure of what they will do next.

Daekyras
09-12-2011, 07:41 AM
I don't think we know enough about Alanna.

During the first few books of the series she is written as an intriguing, mysterious figure. In many ways she embodies the "aes sedai" model that Jordan laid out. She also is a good indicator of the differences between the different ajahs as her mood, description and dress is anathem to that of the Blues and Browns etc.

In many ways she is a victim of what the story became. As more detail was added to the overall plot and more characters got added she becomes lost in the shuffle. As AS were slowly revealed to be very different from "all knowing, all powerful" beings and they became "normal" to us, Alanna seems to become less and less relevant and different.

She has one major impact, the bonding or Rand. However, this is seen by many as her being used as a pawn.

After the bonding of Rand she really seems to become little more than a tool for other, more interesting/important, characters to use to ascertain Rand's position and mood.

Juan
09-12-2011, 09:04 AM
What would be really funny is if Alanna passed the bond to Moridin. I wonder how being bonded would affect Rand and Moridin's alleged merging.

GonzoTheGreat
09-12-2011, 09:13 AM
Intriguing bit from New Spring:
A few of the Accepted were still unsettled enough to giggle, and one or two laughed aloud. Alanna was a shy woman at heart, but she worked hard at being fierce. She told anyone who would listen that she wanted to belong to the Green, the Battle Ajah, and have a dozen Warders. Only Greens bonded more than a single Warder. None had that many Warders, of course, but that was Alanna, always exaggerating.

Weiramon
09-12-2011, 02:03 PM
There are however earlier potential signs of lack of compulsion, and of this being Alanna's own decision. Alanna, as Egwene noted, had been showing far too much interest in all three boys, but Rand especially, all the way back in TGH in Fal Dara.

Aye, it would not be a surprise to hear that other Aes Sedai had considered lying with the Lord Dragon to influence him, or that they would impose this bond on him if it had not already been done. Why, that handsome Cadsuane Melaidhrin probably would have bonded him herself if she had been first.

Burn my soul, an Aes Sedai does not need to be under compulsion to meddle in the affairs of others, and there isn't a woman alive who doesn't think men need to be on apron strings until they are married, and perhaps even after.

However it is clear that this Verin Sedai cannot be trusted. Having witnessed the bonding of the Lord Dragon, and seeing the emotional state of her companion, no doubt she used that moment to exert influence over this Allana Mosvani. Why, it would not be a surprise to hear that even now, this Verin Mathwin woman has sent a missive to Allana Sedai, sending her off to sew further chaos. No doubt in the Borderlands, but perhaps with a visit to Tar Valon along the way.

Strange though, that the other Aes Sedai would not detect her leaving directly from the Stone. It's a puzzlement, her using Illusion to escape her companions before Travelling to the North.

Enigma
09-12-2011, 02:21 PM
As Daekyras has said for someone who has been hanging around a lot of books we don't really know a lot about Alanna.

As far as her interest in Rand goes or her decision to bond him compulsion does not need to be behind it for it to make sense. A lot of Aes Sedai were intersted in Rand & co. Moreover Alanna may have picked up on how obsessed Moiraine was with the three boys and was curious as to what Moiraine saw in Rand or what she was up to.

Did Verin compel her to bond Rand? She could have I suppose but there is no real evidence either way. Alanna does react impulsivly at times. Was she not the AS who wanted penance when Egwene's Accepted test went out of control?

Alanna has suffered the lost of a Warder and had no real time to grieve with the Two Rivers beinga way zone. She bottled up those emotions and that could account for her acting impulsivly. Verin may have given her a nudge but without some clear evidence I think Alanna just reacted.

As for what she is doing now? She can travel and that could be useful but she is not forsaken class. What ever help she could be would be to help save someone or get someone where they needed to be. She is not strong enought to turn the tide of a battle on her own.

confused at birth
09-12-2011, 02:36 PM
Alanna and the other three idiots that bonded Rand have all yet to figure out that they have to stay out of harms way. If any of them are killed because they are to brave for their own good Rand will be insane again and i doubt he has time to get his head fixed.

Alanna going north might be the only way i can think of for the dark Rand returning in the last book without Min dying early on.
she has taken a big risk by trusting that letter to go anywhere near the front lines knowing that if she dies she could take the world with her.:mad:

Zombie Sammael
09-12-2011, 03:08 PM
Alanna and the other three idiots that bonded Rand have all yet to figure out that they have to stay out of harms way. If any of them are killed because they are to brave for their own good Rand will be insane again and i doubt he has time to get his head fixed.

Alanna going north might be the only way i can think of for the dark Rand returning in the last book without Min dying early on.
she has taken a big risk by trusting that letter to go anywhere near the front lines knowing that if she dies she could take the world with her.:mad:

Elayne thought she had absolute protection, but has now learned better; Aviendha is an Aiel and a former maiden, more than capable of looking after herself; Min has largely been with Rand himself. Also, I don't think a warder's death-grief is quite insanity, more like severe depression. I would think whatever protection he has acquired from the effects of the Taint will probably protect him from allowing that to push him over the edge, as well.

confused at birth
09-12-2011, 03:21 PM
Aviendha is an Aiel and a former maiden, more than capable of looking after herself

which is why i was shocked that she agreed at all, she most of all should have known that a battle cannot be predicted and in chaos even the greatest fighter can get a knife in the back.

Elayne bashing is just to easy, but even if the siege had lasted until she dropped her brats she could have been captured and hung after or died on her throne never thinking of what it would do to Rand.

Min knows little about what would happen beyond a what ten minute lecture before hand so she has some excuse for stupidity.

Alanna doesnt have any excuse, she had just lost a warder to an archer, she knows the risks but ignored them which is why i believe there is a chance Verin messed with her. having just seen that even the best get caught with there pants down she wouldnt have been this stupid without something tipping her over the edge.

Verin could have got her to do it to control him then planned to sit in the shadows and knock off anyone she thought a threat while playing Rands enemies against each other. she knows she might have to die to betray the shadow so she cant take the risk herself so she finds someone she is 99% sure isnt a black then gets her to do it.

Weiramon
09-12-2011, 03:43 PM
Burn my soul, a warder - whose Aes Sedain has been killed - can probably be saved. Why, that Myrelle Beregari could probably save more than one.

confused at birth
09-12-2011, 03:45 PM
she is just very skilled in the technique that saves them:D

Weiramon
09-12-2011, 03:51 PM
Aye, backscratching is an art not to be belittled.

confused at birth
09-12-2011, 03:54 PM
Aye, backscratching is an art not to be belittled.

so true my lord, so true

Weiramon
09-12-2011, 04:39 PM
Burn my soul, it is a Lord's duty to inspire, with true words or otherwise.

confused at birth
09-12-2011, 05:01 PM
Burn my soul, it is a Lord's duty to inspire, with true words or otherwise.

ha, actually did anyone ever accuse Weiramon of lying? being a moron and later of being a darkfriend but i cant think of anyone thinking of him telling lies.:confused:

so he must have been very inspiring to follow:D

where is the immigration office in Tear i am fed up with Andor and the borderlands are to cold and full of ugly beasts(and Trollocs:D). its time to move south

Enigma
09-12-2011, 06:40 PM
Alanna doesnt have any excuse, she had just lost a warder to an archer, she knows the risks but ignored them which is why i believe there is a chance Verin messed with her. having just seen that even the best get caught with there pants down she wouldnt have been this stupid without something tipping her over the edge.

From Alanna's pov what she did was for the greater good. I'm not saying I agree with her but look at the world throught her eyes. The Dragon is reborn and needs to be guided if he is to save the world. Except he won't accept guidance, his last guide is either dead or gone and Rand's not looking for a replacement. The world is going to hell, with the White Tower divided. She knows that Siuan has been deposed and it seems that everyone is letting Rand run riot causing chaos and the light knowns what sort of trouble. If he's not careful he could even get himself killed.

So who does she rein him in? Rand has a bigger army than anyone except the DO and has shown that he does not respect AS or give their words any weight. About the only way left to her to try and establish some sort of control (which every single AS except Moiraine before she dies thinks he needs)? She will bond him and if necessary use the bond to keep him in line.

There are a lot of things that could go wrong, in fact the whole idea is a bad one but Alanna is not at her best. Greens take their hierarchys very seriously but now she had no one to give her orders or tell her what needs doing. Her Ajah seems to have split and added to that she is going through the trauma of her warder dying. She is not insance but neither is she acting entirely rationally. I could see how in her own mind, without any compulsion, when Rand planted himself down in front of her, impulse took over and she bonded him.

confused at birth
09-12-2011, 10:43 PM
If he's not careful he could even get himself killed

and now it doesnt matter how careful he is four women can get him killed with their pride or someone learning what they did and targeting them.

she made it so that there was twice the risk of him dying despite knowing the risks.

FelixPax
09-13-2011, 02:06 PM
First, pop over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5669)for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay?


I like Alanna's character, as she did help save Rand's life. Alanna's actions are far better, than Moiraine's ever were for Rand al'Thor. Alanna saved Rand's life, whereas Moiraine's is Rand's death (Theory for AMoL).


“I’ll pay any price in my power if you help him. Anything.”

“Any price,” Moiraine mused, half to herself. “We will speak of prices later, Rand, if at all. I can make no promises. Your Wisdom knows what she is about. I will do what I can, but it is beyond my power to stop the Wheel from turning.”

“Death comes sooner or later to everyone,” the Warder said grimly, “unless they serve the Dark One, and only fools are willing to pay that price.”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 7 "Out of the Woods" -- Rand al'Thor point of view, with Moiraine & Lan

Alanna pretty much did to Rand, what Logain Ablar did to both Toveine & Gabrelle. Save a life or lives, by bonding them. In Logain's case, his hand was limited by what Taim ordered and by a Promise given by Egwene al'Vere as Amyrlin Seat. Egwene offered her protection, if Logain does not harm Aes Sedai. Logain's actions are in line with Alanna's actions.


In other ways, Alanna's character is like Elayne's character, each forces a man to come to her. Or will force a man come in Elayne's future situation with Matrim Cauthon. In both cases, the woman binds the man. Whether Bonding or Betrothal. Submission, then Domination. A man is taken or gives in to woman, then that same man dominates next.

It's Cecil B. DeMille-esque in terms of a conflict model.


This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!


One can like a given character model, and retain critical thinking. ;)


Considering that Alanna Mosvani's (ah-LAN-nah mos-VANH-nie) name possesses the sound of LAN, what does this imply? It's not an accident, that Alanna contains the sound of LAN....

Weiramon
09-13-2011, 03:37 PM
Considering that Alanna Mosvani's (ah-LAN-nah mos-VANH-nie) name possesses the sound of LAN, what does this imply? It's not an accident, that Alanna contains the sound of LAN....

Aye, there are stories of a travelling show led by a fellow who's name contained the sound.

A show said to have been fleeing to Lugard. An excellent suggestion, that this Alanna Mosvani intercepted this caravan of marvels, and used the One Power to rip out the throat of its hapless leader, and then spread rumours that it had been done by a bloodthirsty creature from legend.

The Unreasoner
09-13-2011, 04:37 PM
Is it a coincidence that both of my prime suspects for Brandon's TL alter-ego are posting at the same time? Perhaps he has multiple IDs, and is attempting to divert the conversation around a point raised elsewhere?

And for Alanna, there does seem to be solid evidence for Verin not Compelling her. Although given Alanna's impulsive nature, Verin should not have thought it too odd that Alanna was surprised at the question.

Maybe Verin Compelled Alanna without really knowing why. Maybe the Pattern and ta'veren 'Compelled' Verin, who Compelled Alanna. Verin might have suspected the Pattern's hand when she could not understand her own motives for the specific Compulsion.

GonzoTheGreat
09-13-2011, 05:06 PM
For those who think Verin used Compulsion to make Alanna bond Rand: when would she have done so?

As far as I know, they didn't know that Rand was going to visit them at the time. Verin definitely didn't do it while Rand was watching; her way of using Compulsion is too slow for that.

Zombie Sammael
09-13-2011, 05:22 PM
For those who think Verin used Compulsion to make Alanna bond Rand: when would she have done so?

As far as I know, they didn't know that Rand was going to visit them at the time. Verin definitely didn't do it while Rand was watching; her way of using Compulsion is too slow for that.

I think Verin's method of compulsion is loose enough that she could actually just suggest "IF we meet Rand, THEN bond him" and it would work. That seems to be the advantage to a method that requires the victim to rationalise their actions themselves; you can suggest something that might not happen.

GonzoTheGreat
09-13-2011, 05:31 PM
I think Verin's method of compulsion is loose enough that she could actually just suggest "IF we meet Rand, THEN bond him" and it would work. That seems to be the advantage to a method that requires the victim to rationalise their actions themselves; you can suggest something that might not happen.Maybe, but trying to bond Rand in the wrong circumstances would likely have turned out rather disastrous, which Verin did not want. So it seems unlikely that she would have taken the risk of setting something like that up, when she had no idea when or even if Alanna would ever meet Rand again.

The idea that it really was an impulse action by Alanna herself is a lot more believable.

Zombie Sammael
09-13-2011, 05:36 PM
Maybe, but trying to bond Rand in the wrong circumstances would likely have turned out rather disastrous, which Verin did not want. So it seems unlikely that she would have taken the risk of setting something like that up, when she had no idea when or even if Alanna would ever meet Rand again.

The idea that it really was an impulse action by Alanna herself is a lot more believable.

I'm not sure he would have reacted any worse or better than he did in any circumstances. Unless Alanna just asked him and he said "Yes" but that wasn't going to happen.

FelixPax
09-13-2011, 06:11 PM
Is it a coincidence that both of my prime suspects for Brandon's TL alter-ego are posting at the same time? Perhaps he has multiple IDs, and is attempting to divert the conversation around a point raised elsewhere?

Sounds as if Brandon Sanderson desires to read a Character Parallels Essay about Valan Luca soon, if I don't miss my guess. :cool:


The root of Lan in Valan's name in Wheel of Time terms (only) is related:


Lan, Tar Valon, Horn of Valere, Mierin's taken name of Lanfear, Adsalan (Warder), Anselan (Warder to Barashelle during Trollocs Wars), Beslan, Blacklane (a snake, Tuon's type?), Lord Brelan (KoD, Ch.11), Pelivar Coelan, Culan Cuhan (a 2nd Age location), Dhowlan (a post-Trollocs nation), Doilan (a Shaido Gai'shian in Cairhien), Dorlan (a village just east of Tar Valon. Produces cheese for mice ;) ), Drowned Lands (north of Mayene), Elan Morin Tedronai (a trouble maker), Elandria Borndat (scholar, writer of 'Seeing Through the Breaking'), Elansu (shatayan of Fal Dara, who is Mat's type of woman), Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlan (aka Tuon's prior reincarnation), Eleyan al'Landerin (an Amyrlin Seat raised from the Green Ajah); TGS Chapter 26), Flann Barstere (a Farmer from Two Rivers area), Flann Lewin (another Two Rivers Farmer), Gainor Furlan (Innkeeper of Wayland's Forge in Remen), Gallanha (wife of a Blacksmith in Oak Water village, TGS Prologue), Ghraem'lan ( Forked Lightning Trolloc Clan name), Haesel Palan (a plump Murandian rug merchant), Halan (Ogier Loial's grandfather), Jalanda son of Aried son of Coiam (Ogier historian), Jalani (Aiel Maiden of Spear, with a plump face), Julanya Fote (Kinswoman, plump & pretty with dark hair), Katrine do Catalan a'Coralle (The First Queen of Murandy), Tornay Lanasiet (Dragonsworn Taraboner Captain, who abandons Rodel Ituralde for Tarabon instead), Lanelle (a Seanchan sul'dam: TGS,Ch19), Lanita (in training with Salidar Aes Sedai: LoC,Ch14), Lannis ( past scholar from the Blue Ajah: ToM, Ch15), Lara Ayellan (Emond's Field girl), Leuese Mulan (rich Tairen Fisherman & Trader, friend of Mother Guenna aka Siuan's mother), Guardsman-Lieutenant Martyn Tallanvor (current husband of Morgase), High Lord Meilan of House Mendiana (Tairen Lord, murdered), Lord Melanril of House Asegora (Tairen Lord, killed in battle), Meri do Ahlan a'Conlin (Murandian noblewoman, should be now be between 40s & 60s in age), Pelanna (Sea Folk Wavemistress, her Windfinder is Caire din Gelyn Running Wave), Lord Piqor Ramshalan (a Domani nobleman), Rolan (Mera'din who joined Shaido Aiel, killed by Faile with a knife in the back), Rulan Allwine (Market Sheran Innkeeper: TEotW, Ch.33), Selande Darengil (a Cairhien minor nobleswoman, currently leader of the Cha Faile), Sevlana Meseau (a famous Gray Ajah in history), Shelan Sept (a sept of the Daryne Aiel, assumed to be last in Cairhien as of LoC book), Solanje (an area in Arad Doman, where Rodel Ituralde won a battle), Sorelana Alsahhan (a scholar during the Trollocs Wars, who's wrote of Darkhounds: CoT,Ch7), Sun Lance (Bukama's horse during Aiel War: NS, Ch1), Tallan (a Ghealdan village: TDR, Ch.33), Three-Folds Land, Timolan (Miagoma Aiel Clan Chief), Westlands, Captain of the Air Lord Abaldar Yulan (Seanchan military leader) among a few others.


However, Lan's own last name Mandragoran possesses the root sound of Gara, according to Robert Jordan's Dragonmount.com blog. Merchant trader Weilin Aldragoran's last name possesses the same root sound of Gara.


And for Alanna, there does seem to be solid evidence for Verin not Compelling her. Although given Alanna's impulsive nature, Verin should not have thought it too odd that Alanna was surprised at the question.

I do not think Alanna was under any Compulsion, when she bonded Rand as a Warder.

Who knows what occurred on that long trip on the River Queen, with Verin along for the ride, from Tar Valon to near Fal Dara in TEotW and TGH books?


Aye, there are stories of a travelling show led by a fellow who's name contained the sound.

A show said to have been fleeing to Lugard. An excellent suggestion, that this Alanna Mosvani intercepted this caravan of marvels, and used the One Power to rip out the throat of its hapless leader, and then spread rumours that it had been done by a bloodthirsty creature from legend.

Is Weiramon claiming Alanna is a darkfriend?

Where is Weiramon getting his (mis)information from again? :confused:

The Angry Druid
09-13-2011, 07:56 PM
Always kind of liked Alanna, despite the bonding.

And she was significant not only for the bond, but for being able to lead Perrin and the other AS to him after he was kidnapped and assisting the rescue at Dumai's Wells.

She is also instrumental in getting Rand to let his bond AS help him (ACoS/WH). And she also led Cadsuane to him in Far Madding (which turned out to be huge).

While I don't know what Alanna is doing in the Borderlands, I must say the degree to which Rand and Egwene let them fall on their own (aside from Maradon), repeating the mistakes of Malkier, and abandoning Lan, was one of the most frustrating things about aMoL.

Hope Verin helps Alanna make amends, and hopefully Rand and Egwene do as well.

confused at birth
09-13-2011, 11:14 PM
And she also led Cadsuane to him in Far Madding (which turned out to be huge).


but if Cadsuane hadnt gone to Far Madding Nyn wouldnt have known how to use her belt so they wouldnt have gone in that way and might not of needed saving.

every time you see Cadsuane save Rand, look back a chapter and you can see how she put him in danger:D

Kimon
09-13-2011, 11:44 PM
but if Cadsuane hadnt gone to Far Madding Nyn wouldnt have known how to use her belt so they wouldnt have gone in that way and might not of needed saving.

every time you see Cadsuane save Rand, look back a chapter and you can see how she put him in danger:D

Well, I suppose her slap in the woods outside Cairhien was somewhat ill-timed, but that said, she did warn Nynaeve about how the Guardian worked, and she did intimidate the leaders of Far Madding into releasing him rather than selling him to Tar Valon.

confused at birth
09-13-2011, 11:49 PM
Well, I suppose her slap in the woods outside Cairhien was somewhat ill-timed, but that said, she did warn Nynaeve about how the Guardian worked, and she did intimidate the leaders of Far Madding into releasing him rather than selling him to Tar Valon.

she did this so many times i thought it might be how she was trying to get close to him. nearly everything she has done has made things worse but she seems to be good at fixing her own mistakes:)

if she hadnt made flinn into a pet he could have left the city got Bash, Logain and the legion to show up by morning.
i think that would have been as good a way to intimidate them, they couldnt threaten to hurt him, the legion would have killed everyone in the city if they had pulled that stunt.

GonzoTheGreat
09-14-2011, 05:17 AM
I'm not sure he would have reacted any worse or better than he did in any circumstances.Suppose they had met elsewhere, Alanna stepped up and bonded him, a Maiden jumps in and slits her throat. Rand then first kills the Maidens and then himself.
How's that not a worse outcome than the one they got now?

One of the reasons why things didn't go very badly wrong was that Rand did not have any body guards around. But that's not the normal situation for him anymore.

Zombie Sammael
09-14-2011, 06:14 AM
Suppose they had met elsewhere, Alanna stepped up and bonded him, a Maiden jumps in and slits her throat. Rand then first kills the Maidens and then himself.
How's that not a worse outcome than the one they got now?

One of the reasons why things didn't go very badly wrong was that Rand did not have any body guards around. But that's not the normal situation for him anymore.

How would the Maiden have known what had happened or had any clue at all that something bad was happening unless she could channel? Don't the run of the mill Aiel still have a modicum of respect for Aes Sedai (especially at that stage in the story)?

GonzoTheGreat
09-14-2011, 06:50 AM
She wouldn't have known what had happened, obviously. If she had, then she would know that killing the AS was not a good solution.
But from Rand's reaction she would have known that something had happened. It would have looked like an attack. And in such a case, getting rid of the attacker first and asking questions later is how most competent body guards would react.

If I dashed through the cordon of guards around president Obama, touched him and he jerked away and acted frightened and confused, then I wouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt either. I might not be slain out of hand, but on the other hand, I might be. And I think that Maidens are less hippie like than the American Secret Service guarding the president is, so they would be more likely to react with lethal force.

Zombie Sammael
09-14-2011, 06:56 AM
She wouldn't have known what had happened, obviously. If she had, then she would know that killing the AS was not a good solution.
But from Rand's reaction she would have known that something had happened. It would have looked like an attack. And in such a case, getting rid of the attacker first and asking questions later is how most competent body guards would react.

If I dashed through the cordon of guards around president Obama, touched him and he jerked away and acted frightened and confused, then I wouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt either. I might not be slain out of hand, but on the other hand, I might be. And I think that Maidens are less hippie like than the American Secret Service guarding the president is, so they would be more likely to react with lethal force.

I think she would have found a spear at her throat before she knew what was going on, possibly several, but I equally doubt the Maidens would have outright killed an AS without knowing exactly what had happened.

Besides, what would Verin have known about Aiel Maidens guarding the Dragon Reborn, or anyone guarding him? She knew Rand, not his exact circumstances.

GonzoTheGreat
09-14-2011, 07:02 AM
No, she didn't. Nor did she know how much precisely he himself knew about the Warder business. So he too could have killed Alanna right after being bonded, which would have been just as bad, I suspect.

The guardians might have been Defenders of the Stone instead (who did not have the same attitude towards AS). Or they might have been some of Masema's fanatics, or some similar group. Or it might have been Lanfear herself, for that matter.

Point is, Verin did not have any reason to think it would be safe, and she did have good reason (simple logic) to think that it probably would not be safe. Given those odds, I do not think she would have taken the risk.

Zombie Sammael
09-14-2011, 07:16 AM
No, she didn't. Nor did she know how much precisely he himself knew about the Warder business. So he too could have killed Alanna right after being bonded, which would have been just as bad, I suspect.

The guardians might have been Defenders of the Stone instead (who did not have the same attitude towards AS). Or they might have been some of Masema's fanatics, or some similar group. Or it might have been Lanfear herself, for that matter.

Point is, Verin did not have any reason to think it would be safe, and she did have good reason (simple logic) to think that it probably would not be safe. Given those odds, I do not think she would have taken the risk.

Unless there was a very good reason for her to take that risk. Given that it appears her last actions involved instructions to Alanna (among others), there might well have been.

GonzoTheGreat
09-14-2011, 07:33 AM
Unless there was a very good reason for her to take that risk. Given that it appears her last actions involved instructions to Alanna (among others), there might well have been.But by then, the situation had changed enormously, and Verin knew a lot more about it than she did when she might have influenced Alanna to Bond Rand.

The Unreasoner
09-14-2011, 08:21 AM
As I have already said, Verin may have had no reason. She may have been just as surprised at using Compulsion as Gonzo would be. Perhaps the Pattern forcing Verin to Compell even when it was ultimately unnecessary showed her the value of redundancy in even the best of plans.

GonzoTheGreat
09-14-2011, 08:32 AM
All right, then I'll ask again: when might she have done this?

I doubt it was in the scene we've seen, where she was surprised at having the DR appear in the inn she'd stuffed all those girls in.
I doubt it was on the way to Caemlyn, when they had to babysit lots of country rubes in rather unsettled times.
It might have been in the TR, of course. If they had had time. But then they knew that Rand was far away, and making a plan like this would seem rather useless at best.
Or it might have been before they even got to the TR. In which case it is not clear to me why would bother with such a scheme at all.

Zombie Sammael
09-14-2011, 08:41 AM
All right, then I'll ask again: when might she have done this?

I doubt it was in the scene we've seen, where she was surprised at having the DR appear in the inn she'd stuffed all those girls in.
I doubt it was on the way to Caemlyn, when they had to babysit lots of country rubes in rather unsettled times.
It might have been in the TR, of course. If they had had time. But then they knew that Rand was far away, and making a plan like this would seem rather useless at best.
Or it might have been before they even got to the TR. In which case it is not clear to me why would bother with such a scheme at all.

She could have done it at any time prior to the scene, and I would suggest that whilst "babysitting lots of country rubes" would probably be the most convenient and likeliest time. The TR girls might be bumpkins but they were unlikely to need watching 24/7. Even if they did, it could have been left to a Warder while Verin spoke to Alanna about "something important".

WinespringBrother
09-14-2011, 09:53 AM
All right, then I'll ask again: when might she have done this?

I doubt it was in the scene we've seen, where she was surprised at having the DR appear in the inn she'd stuffed all those girls in.
I doubt it was on the way to Caemlyn, when they had to babysit lots of country rubes in rather unsettled times.
It might have been in the TR, of course. If they had had time. But then they knew that Rand was far away, and making a plan like this would seem rather useless at best.
Or it might have been before they even got to the TR. In which case it is not clear to me why would bother with such a scheme at all.

For the sake of argument, I see two different times that it would have been logical for Verin to compel Alanna to bond Rand (though I don't recall the exact timing of the events from these chapters):

1. After Verin deduced that Rand was the Dragon Reborn (and possibly in need of protection) when they were in Fal Dara. Though that would have been a risky time for Alanna to bond Rand with all the other sisters around.

2. When Verin and Alanna were traveling to the Two Rivers. Though they arrived before the Whitecloaks/Fain/Slayer/the trap for Rand, Verin could have had some kind of advance notice of the trap and thought it might lure Rand there.

confused at birth
09-14-2011, 12:20 PM
You know her orders might not have been to bond him exactly. she might have given her the order to get close to him and try and form a bond he wouldnt want to break, maybe the order was for Alanna to try and get into his bed as a way to control him.

We have seen other Aes Sedai try this even if it didnt work as well as they thought because men are not as dumb as they seem to think we are like Logains girlfriend thinking she knew everything he was doing just because they were sleeping together. So Alanna messed up the order because she was stressed out after losing her warder and wanted to replace him and lots of women seem to find that lanky ginger git attractive so she might have wanted to use the bond to make it more fun for her.

Isnt this what Egwene thought she had done when she heard that Alanna was up to something. she also assumed that if an Aes Sedai got into his bed she would be able to control him pretty easily by morning.

Verin shocked at how bad she messed up demands answers from Alanna to figure out how to control the situation without getting Rand killed or Alanna realise she is being controlled.

this way its still Verin's fault:D

Rand al'Fain
09-14-2011, 12:45 PM
I personally, don't buy that Alanna was, is, or will be under compulsion. In the New Spring, she puts on the act of being a "fiery" tempered woman. You act as something long enough, you become it. Ad that too her being impulsive (for Aes Sedai) and being an emotional wreck on the inside due to losing her warder, plus the commonly held view amongst the Aes Sedai that the Dragon Reborn needs to be reeled in, it makes sense that she would do such a thing.

confused at birth
09-14-2011, 12:54 PM
I personally, don't buy that Alanna was, is, or will be under compulsion.

this may or may not be true but ever since Verin's lie in the great hunt i have looked at everything she has done as suspicious and tried to figure out how it would bite the good guys in the butt.

ok turns out she was a black hoping to help the good guys but i still look at her every act in a dark way. even giving up the list to Egwene could have been for the good of the shadow, lets Egwene think she had crippled the black then gets killed in the dream or something.

and of course Egwene believes she was a good person at heart so she most have been a secret hitler wannabe. i will accept Egwene being right about something the day 50 cats tap dance on the moon

Juan
09-14-2011, 12:58 PM
Alanna killed Asmodean. Graendal bonded Rand.:rolleyes:

Enigma
09-14-2011, 02:02 PM
ok turns out she was a black hoping to help the good guys but i still look at her every act in a dark way. even giving up the list to Egwene could have been for the good of the shadow, lets Egwene think she had crippled the black then gets killed in the dream or something.

Darkfriends want power, they will do a lot of things to help the cause of the Shadow but dying for the DO is not one of them.

confused at birth
09-14-2011, 02:15 PM
Darkfriends want power, they will do a lot of things to help the cause of the Shadow but dying for the DO is not one of them.

Fanatics die for the cause all the time didnt you watch the news yesterday? like in any faith some darkfriends must really believe in the Dark One even if those at the top are just using him to advance themselves.

she died a darkfriend and wasnt balefired so she could still be reborn as a blonde.
i know this isnt going to happen i just have never trusted her and it is annoying to have somene you dont trust do something you cant blame them for.
like when Egwene manages not to mess something up yes it moves the story along but ive spent 5 years waiting for someone to kill her and when she finally gets it right she is safe again:(

having spent so long thinking Verin is evil i cant believe that she didnt have something to do with Alanna bonding Rand because of the many ways it has hurt him. plus the whole creepy factor of having someone elses feelings in your head all the time must have helped him go nuts.

Enigma
09-14-2011, 07:14 PM
Fanatics die for the cause all the time didnt you watch the news yesterday? like in any faith some darkfriends must really believe in the Dark One even if those at the top are just using him to advance themselves.

Have we seen any single Dark Friend willingly take one for the team? Most darkfriends don't know about the DO recycling policy. Verin knew a lot of things so lets say she did know. So far you have to be in the forsaken club to be recycled. The DO does not care enought about the rest of his servents, aside from the forsaken they are all replacable.

The sort of fanatics in our world who die for a cause expect to get a reward in the next life. That does not apply at all here. At best they are reborn at some stage in the future and if the DO wins it would mean that they would have to start from scratch building up a power base against those who never died and had time to establish themselves in the new order. Hell, even Semirhage said that she would not be sacraficed i.e. die. Why would Verin make that leap of faith.

FelixPax
09-14-2011, 08:14 PM
Have we seen any single Dark Friend willingly take one for the team?

Rand al'Thor is a darkfriend too. :D Rand is tainted by:

By his own actions of accepting help from the Dark One in Rhuidean, while in the Void (TSR book);
By Moridin's 'dagger of the mind' to use a term Shakespeare found in Hamlet, and much later in a Star Trek episode. It's the cause of Rand's second channeling sickness symptoms. (ACoS book to ToM book);
By the True Power usage (TGS book);


Rand is going to take one for the Team.


Willingly?

Now, that is a good question. Does anyone truly seek Death, but fools?

WinespringBrother
09-14-2011, 08:44 PM
Have we seen any single Dark Friend willingly take one for the team? Most darkfriends don't know about the DO recycling policy. Verin knew a lot of things so lets say she did know. So far you have to be in the forsaken club to be recycled. The DO does not care enought about the rest of his servents, aside from the forsaken they are all replacable.

The sort of fanatics in our world who die for a cause expect to get a reward in the next life. That does not apply at all here. At best they are reborn at some stage in the future and if the DO wins it would mean that they would have to start from scratch building up a power base against those who never died and had time to establish themselves in the new order. Hell, even Semirhage said that she would not be sacraficed i.e. die. Why would Verin make that leap of faith.

Gray men give up their souls for a living death, which I would call "taking one for the team."

The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CH: Gray Men

Not all Shadowspawn were constructs. There were some creatures, like those called Gray Men, who were in truth ordinary living men and women. They did not merely pledge their souls to the Shadow, as Darkfriends did, but actually give them away. To all intents and purposes, although they continued to move and think, they are already dead. These ďsoullessĒ are extremely effective assassins, for their lack in some way makes them so ordinary-looking that even the most searching gaze can slide right over them. They are literally beneath any notice. This allows them to infiltrate even busy public areas with ease. In many cases the intended victim does not even see them after the strike, and there have been occasions where passersby who watched the victim fall failed to see the killer.

Kimon
09-14-2011, 08:50 PM
No, she didn't. Nor did she know how much precisely he himself knew about the Warder business. So he too could have killed Alanna right after being bonded, which would have been just as bad, I suspect.


Is there really good reason to believe that Alanna's death ever (as in even before his bonding to Min, Elayne, and Aviendha) would have had such dire repercussions? We've seen what happens to a non-channeling warder when his Aes Sedai dies, and we've seen what happens to a channeler when her non-channeling warder dies, and we've even seen an channeler mourn their bonded warder-channeler. We've yet to see, however, a bonded warder-channeler mourn the loss of their Aes Sedai (or asha'man - which might well also come to pass). Is there really good reason to believe that the reaction would be the same?

Prior to his bonding by the other three, after which would have almost certainly allowed enough emotional stability from their continuing bonds to offset, or at least lessen, the emotional devastation caused by her (Alanna's) death (and even if he did still require some emotional re-stabilizing to overcome this extreme PTSD, clearly Min would be more than up to the task of "comforting" him), would he not still have had that key component that left Aes Sedai mourners just really depressed rather than suicidal - the source. I see no reason to believe that had Alanna died that his reaction would not have been more in line with that of a mourning Aes Sedai than with a suicidal warder.

Rand al'Fain
09-14-2011, 09:03 PM
Is there really good reason to believe that Alanna's death ever (as in even before his bonding to Min, Elayne, and Aviendha) would have had such dire repercussions? We've seen what happens to a non-channeling warder when his Aes Sedai dies, and we've seen what happens to a channeler when her non-channeling warder dies, and we've even seen an channeler mourn their bonded warder-channeler. We've yet to see, however, a bonded warder-channeler mourn the loss of their Aes Sedai (or asha'man - which might well also come to pass). Is there really good reason to believe that the reaction would be the same?

Prior to his bonding by the other three, after which would have almost certainly allowed enough emotional stability from their continuing bonds to offset, or at least lessen, the emotional devastation caused by her (Alanna's) death (and even if he did still require some emotional re-stabilizing to overcome this extreme PTSD, clearly Min would be more than up to the task of "comforting" him), would he not still have had that key component that left Aes Sedai mourners just really depressed rather than suicidal - the source. I see no reason to believe that had Alanna died that his reaction would not have been more in line with that of a mourning Aes Sedai than with a suicidal warder.
Except that Rand would have blamed himself for her death and would have added her name to the "list,"
and due to him being bonded to her, it could have affected him MUCH worse and we might have seen Dark Rand much sooner.

Kimon
09-14-2011, 09:18 PM
Except that Rand would have blamed himself for her death and would have added her name to the "list,"
and due to him being bonded to her, it could have affected him MUCH worse and we might have seen Dark Rand much sooner.

Think of that first name on the list. Sure he seemed at a loss, wandered off, read her letter, cried, but he didn't go into instant berserker mode, and that was Moiraine. He clearly blamed himself for her "death", yet nonetheless, Dark Rand was still far off on the horizon. Now, admittedly, he wasn't bonded to Moiraine, but her pseudo-death still had a massive psychological impact. So, would a less integral to the well-being of his psyche character - Alanna - really have had such a greater impact simply because of that presence of an unwanted bond, or would it have been but a minimal, and acute, depressive episode that would have been tempered by the presence of the source at any time, and moreover by the source and Min (and the other two annoying biddies) later. If later, I don't see how there's even room for argument, he would have been okay. If before, I find it hard to believe that the source wouldn't have kept him going long enough for Min to show up and raise his spirits.

Juan
09-15-2011, 02:06 AM
Gray men give up their souls for a living death, which I would call "taking one for the team."

Definitely not in terms of taking one for the team. They don't do it for the team. They do it for themselves.

Enigma
09-15-2011, 07:54 AM
As Kimon has said we have not really seen the full effects of bonding on men who can channell. We know that they are more resistant to being complelled throught the bond and how often were we told how much more alive one felt while channeling even throught the taint.

I don't doubt that Rand or any Asha'man would not be hurt by the loss of their bond mate but they have the fix of the true source to help them get over the loss so I'm not convinced that death of one half of the bond = 100% suicidal.

Going back to the Grey men, they do sacrafice a lot for the Shadow but we don't know exactly what their reward is. Not to mention that their soul may take a walk but their intelect and intelligence remain. Some people even in our world think that their mind is all there is and the soul is just religious nonsence. I could see how some people might think that they will still function but with their weaker parts missing. Death is entirely a different thing.

GonzoTheGreat
09-15-2011, 08:03 AM
Based on their reactions, I do not think that any AS had considered the possibility that Rand's ability to channel might have made any difference in his warderhood*. They all expected him to react as a normal warder would; they were surprised that Alanna couldn't control him as would normally have been the case.

* Warderness? Wardericity? What's the proper term, anyway?

Zombie Sammael
09-15-2011, 08:12 AM
Based on their reactions, I do not think that any AS had considered the possibility that Rand's ability to channel might have made any difference in his warderhood*. They all expected him to react as a normal warder would; they were surprised that Alanna couldn't control him as would normally have been the case.

* Warderness? Wardericity? What's the proper term, anyway?

I had thought that this was more to do with Rand being Rand than his ability to channel. I thought it was a comment on Two Rivers stubbornness, mingled with him being the Dragon Reborn. I can't see why channeling should actually have any impact, other than through the flame and the void; we know the use of that technique doesn't affect it because so many other warders use it (specifically, Lan). I tend to think the same effect or similar might have happened had Mat or Perrin been bonded.

GonzoTheGreat
09-15-2011, 08:29 AM
Possible, but in that case, they had no reason to expect him to react with anything other than suicidal madness if Alanna were to be killed, did they?
Yet not a single AS seems to consider that eventuality.

Zombie Sammael
09-15-2011, 08:38 AM
Possible, but in that case, they had no reason to expect him to react with anything other than suicidal madness if Alanna were to be killed, did they?
Yet not a single AS seems to consider that eventuality.

No, I don't disagree with you that it's a bad idea. I disagree that channeling is what makes Rand better able to resist the bond. There's no evidence Flinn, Narishma, or Hopwil are able to resist the bond, and some evidence that they are not.

David Selig
09-15-2011, 10:10 AM
Rand's whole "I don't care where Alanna goes" attitude in ToM was really idiotic, sure, he won't hide, so she won't be useful for finding him, but the Shadow can still torture or even kill her and caused him all kinds of pain through the bond.

Cadsuane only caring that Alanna could be used to find Rand was even more stupid, given that she knows a lot more about bonding than Rand and doesn't know about Elayne and Avi bonding Rand.

Enigma
09-16-2011, 03:20 PM
No, I don't disagree with you that it's a bad idea. I disagree that channeling is what makes Rand better able to resist the bond. There's no evidence Flinn, Narishma, or Hopwil are able to resist the bond, and some evidence that they are not.

The ability to channell may not be enought to protect a male from the compulsion effects of the bond. When Rand was bonded he immediatly reached for the true source so he was holding the one power when Alanna tried her mojo on him.

I believe that it was either Rahvin or Sammael who gave us a pov where he said that compulsion did not work on those activly holding the power. That is contradicted by the scene where Moggy caught Nynaeve and Elayne by surprise. I can't remember which one of the two ladies was holding the power when Moggy came to visit but she compeled both and one was definatly holding the power.

Now its possible that Sammael/Rahvin was mistaken but I would have thought that protection against compulsion from a rival/enemy would be the sort of important thing that they would have read up on. If the forsaken was not mistaken holding the sourse might only be a protection from compulsions for men.

Have we actually seen any Aes Sedai comple their Asha'man warders? Eben Hopwil& Daigian seem to have a older sister younger brother relationship. Damer Flynn & Corele are more like professional colleagues. Granted Jahar Narishma is under the thumb of Merise but that seems more down to her personality that anything else. She did raise a worry with Cadsuani that he might get stronger that her but there was no evidence that there is much compelling going on.

Kimon
09-16-2011, 04:47 PM
Have we actually seen any Aes Sedai comple their Asha'man warders? Eben Hopwil& Daigian seem to have a older sister younger brother relationship. Damer Flynn & Corele are more like professional colleagues. Granted Jahar Narishma is under the thumb of Merise but that seems more down to her personality that anything else. She did raise a worry with Cadsuani that he might get stronger that her but there was no evidence that there is much compelling going on.

It might be tied to strength differential. Rand is significantly stronger than Alanna. It's unclear whether Corele has ever tried to compel Flinn, but it's also unclear who is stronger, though the impression, considering that Flinn is described as being rather strong, is that he likely is the stronger of the two in channeling strength. Also unclear with Merise and Narishma. She seems to take a more active and assertive role, and while she is described as reasonably strong, Narishma is likely now the stronger of the two. We have seen her approach Cadsuane with her concerns over her arguments with Narishma over his pins, so perhaps she is having trouble compelling him. We have however seen one clear example of a channeler who is clearly stronger than his warders, and who is clearly able to compel them - Logain has compelled Toveine and Gabrelle. So, it might be a consequence of relative strengths in the power, or it might be that Rand being so powerfully ta'veren simply makes it impossible to compel him.

Enigma
09-16-2011, 06:02 PM
Merise did not strike me as the sort to have to rely on compulsion to get her way, she seemed, at least in my view, to be written as someone with a very strong personality. In fact when I first read about her she struck me as a bit of an Aes Sedai dominatrix. She is described as having a very firm control over her warders but having to compel them all the time strikes me as a waste or resources. Forcing obedience throught the power would require a lot of time and effort. Not to mention as a Green she is more likely to be in harm's way and having to compel obedience from a warder in the middle of a battle is questionable.

On the issue of Logain being stronger that the AS he bonded, that bond is different to the one used by the AS. There is a specific bit added to force obedience. From seeing how Lan was dealt with the AS bond does not have the automatic obey requirement and requires active tugging at the bond.

the_collective
09-16-2011, 06:19 PM
Merise did not strike me as the sort to have to rely on compulsion to get her way, she seemed, at least in my view, to be written as someone with a very strong personality. In fact when I first read about her she struck me as a bit of an Aes Sedai dominatrix.

<ahem> Giggity.

That is all.

Weiramon
09-16-2011, 06:27 PM
<ahem> Giggity.

That is all.

Burn my soul, this could turn into a . . . swamp.

Kimon
09-16-2011, 07:14 PM
On the issue of Logain being stronger that the AS he bonded, that bond is different to the one used by the AS. There is a specific bit added to force obedience. From seeing how Lan was dealt with the AS bond does not have the automatic obey requirement and requires active tugging at the bond.

Are you referring to that joke about the "extra bit"? That was just the fact that the bond was learned as a kiss, much as some of the Aes Sedai weaves required a bunch of hand waving, this weave couldn't be done without that extra bit. He issued his commands right after he bonded Toveine, but the scene simply gave the impression that what he had done was just akin to sisters compelling their warders, not anything specifically built into the asha'man weave that guaranteed control.

Toveine does say this in the prologue of WH:

Logain's filthy bond made disobedience impossible, no matter how often she wished it.

But she mentions her "orders" just before this just as she mentions her "instructions" later in the scene.

Briefly she wondered what was keeping Gabrelle. The other sister bonded to Logain had the same instructions she did, and until now she had always been there first.

It's not impossible that there could be something built into the weave itself that has, as you suggest, a compulsory element, but keep in mind that Toveine is a red, which can tend to make her analysis of the bond seem even more a prison than the usual assessment of it. Nonetheless, her description doesn't really seem to require anything more than what we are familiar with from the Aes Sedai and their warders. Logain bonded them, then compelled them, and now they can't disobey.

Weiramon
09-16-2011, 07:20 PM
Burn my eyes, that Toveine Sedai should be made to drink a cup of tea.

Enigma
09-16-2011, 07:38 PM
Are you referring to that joke about the "extra bit"? That was just the fact that the bond was learned as a kiss, much as some of the Aes Sedai weaves required a bunch of hand waving, this weave couldn't be done without that extra bit. He issued his commands right after he bonded Toveine, but the scene simply gave the impression that what he had done was

I was referring to the glossery entry, where it said that the warder bond was used by the Asha'man but altered so as to force obedience, to control the captured Aes Sedai. I'm not sure which book the glossary entry was in but I think it was WH.

Kimon
09-16-2011, 07:52 PM
I was referring to the glossery entry, where it said that the warder bond was used by the Asha'man but altered so as to force obedience, to control the captured Aes Sedai. I'm not sure which book the glossary entry was in but I think it was WH.

mea culpa...and yes, you're correct also on it being the WH glossary.

GonzoTheGreat
09-17-2011, 04:29 AM
Are you referring to that joke about the "extra bit"? That was just the fact that the bond was learned as a kiss, ...LOL.

"I could have done without the extra bit," he sighed, patting the horseís neck; the animal snorted, but it no longer leaped about, "yet I suppose it is necessary. Youíre hardly a wife. Be calm. Donít try to escape, donít attack anyone in a black coat, and donít touch the Source unless I give you permission. Now, whatís your name?"If the kiss is the Extra Bit, as you claim, and Logain said that he added that bit because she isn't a wife, then it would stand to reason that they do not ever kiss their wives. Is there evidence supporting that idea?

Enigma
09-17-2011, 09:25 AM
I think that Logain's comment was more to do with the fact that the Asha'man who developed the bond did so because he wanted to stay in contact with his wife. Its probably natural that husband + wife kissed. We know from the AS that if one learns a weave with accompanying physical gestures its hard if not impossible to perform the weave without that gesture.

Bonding a wife while kissing is not a problem, but Logain was uncomfortable at having to kiss a complete stranger who was more that a little hostile to him to perform the weave. It probably struck Logain a bit like the behavour of a mercernary dealing with a captive female.

Going back to the original quesion we don't know if new super Rand would be affected by the death of a bond mate the same way a normal person would let along taking into account the compensating factors of him being bonded to several others and having access to the One Power.

GonzoTheGreat
09-17-2011, 11:45 AM
Going back to the original quesion we don't know if new super Rand would be affected by the death of a bond mate the same way a normal person would let along taking into account the compensating factors of him being bonded to several others and having access to the One Power.Read and find out. :D

FelixPax
09-17-2011, 02:28 PM
Burn my soul, this could turn into a . . . swamp.

Don't miss you, your younger freer years in Drowned Lands? How about them times to come, in an Illian swamp right behind the Dragon Reborn? Just like a snake out for a swim, again. ;)

Oh, the joys of redemption & a good challenge on a horse.

Burn my eyes, that Toveine Sedai should be made to drink a cup of tea.

Of a cup... ?

Lupusdeusest
09-17-2011, 07:58 PM
And was it just the kiss that made her have her... harpstring moment? Or is there an element in the bond?
I'm having all sorts of kinky thoughts right now.

GonzoTheGreat
09-18-2011, 05:25 AM
Let me try to be clear, just for once:

I think that the Asha'man bond (the standard one, between man and wife) is done with a kiss.
I also think that some Asha'man figured out an "extra bit", which undoubtedly generated some discussion over when it was moral to use that.
I think that in order to deal with the AS, Logain and the other Asha'man who bonded those AS used the bond with that extra bit. I don't think the AS detected that until they discovered that they were obeying.

Oh, and if you want to have kinky thoughts: start imagining what other "extra bits" could be added to the bond. Then remember that it is possible for AS to bond Asha'man too, and they could probably also come up with extra bits.

The Unreasoner
09-18-2011, 06:54 AM
I think we all followed your position. We just seem to disagree on what the 'extra bit' was.
Since:
1. Taim frowned on experimentation with the Power, and is hinted to have punished some Asha'man over this very issue

2. The Aes Sedai appeared relatively suddenly (so not much time for modifications to the weave, or at least not much time after the threat was confirmed)

3. Logain seems to have full faith in the weave that protects his men from severing-not indicative of an experimenal weave. Especially given Logain's history with the Tower.

4. The kiss is a necessary/unnecessary part of the weave. Compulsion was not necessary. It may have been practical (as opposed to rotating duty on AS shield patrol), but certainly not necessary.

5. The sentence structure (at least in American English) pretty clearly indicates that the kiss is the 'extra bit'. 'I suppose it is necessary' was an idle tangent, the line of thought itself went from 'I could have done without'=> "why?" (hardly a wife)

GonzoTheGreat
09-18-2011, 07:18 AM
If they had gone with keeping them shielded full time, that would have been a rather bad strain on BT resources, wouldn't it?

I doubt they had all that much experience with keeping channeling women shielded. They would have had to make up for that with brute force. So they would have needed to have the shields maintained by the strongest channelers, just in case one of those women was capable of breaking through a too weak shield.
Maintaining a shield requires some effort. So they couldn't have done it more than, say, 8 hours a day. That means that they would have had 150 of the strongest Asha'man doing nothing more than sit around shielding women. Plus a few extras, in case something went wrong.

Compare that to the current situation, where they don't have to worry about shielding them at all, and all those Asha'man can be off doing more useful things (training, recruiting, killing Trollocs, being turned to the Shadow, whatever).

Landro
09-18-2011, 10:05 AM
I think the pattern forced Alanna. The bond was needed at Dumai's Wells and Far Madding to allow AS and others to find and help Rand.

Without the bond, the people traveling to rescue Rand at Dumai's Wells wouldn't have known Rands location and the urgency of their mission and might have been too late.

At Far Madding, Rand needed Cadsuane's help to get free or he would likely have been "sold" to Elaida and her friends.

Enigma
09-18-2011, 10:17 AM
1. Taim frowned on experimentation with the Power, and is hinted to have punished some Asha'man over this very issue

I don't think there is any arguement there. Grady more or less confirmed what happened to Perrin and the fact that Taim was unhappy. Whether he was unhappy because he does not like his men experementing or that they were able to come up with a non lethal way to contain the Aes Sedai is another question. As Gonzo said shielding the captive AS 24/7 would tie up far too many Asha'man. Without the bond the options were to eitehr kill them, sever them or let them go, the last one not being a great idea as they would now be able to bring back intelligence on the BT to the WT. Dead/Severed AS = bad PR for the Black Tower and good for the Shadow.

2. The Aes Sedai appeared relatively suddenly (so not much time for modifications to the weave, or at least not much time after the threat was confirmed)


Not so suddenly that the BT were caught be surprise. Unless any is suggesting that Logain just happened to go for a ride with a lot of his friends right where the AS were going to be, not once but at least twice. He had previously bonded another AS so that had to have been another encounter.

3. Logain seems to have full faith in the weave that protects his men from severing-not indicative of an experimenal weave. Especially given Logain's history with the Tower.

The Weave containes the AS. Its not the only thing protecting the Asha'man thought. Until recently the AS are surrounded by hundreds of men who could channel so only a fool would start gentling anyone in a black coat. Not to mention the AS are not too keen to find out what happens to them if someone gentles the man who bonded them. Would it sever them? What if the man kills himself? So I don't think Logain is baseing all thier protection on an untried weave.

4. The kiss is a necessary/unnecessary part of the weave. Compulsion was not necessary. It may have been practical (as opposed to rotating duty on AS shield patrol), but certainly not necessary.

[QUOTE=The Unreasoner;163325]5. The sentence structure (at least in American English) pretty clearly indicates that the kiss is the 'extra bit'. 'I suppose it is necessary' was an idle tangent, the line of thought itself went from 'I could have done without'=> "why?" (hardly a wife)

I agree. The Glossary suggests the extra bit is the added obedience weave but in Logain's mind he could have done without having to force himself on a captive and helpless woman. Forcing a kiss is a few steps away from rape in Logain's eyes.

confused at birth
09-18-2011, 01:44 PM
The ability to channel may not be enought to protect a male from the compulsion effects of the bond

maybe but Rand could also ignore the Draghkar while he was channeling add this to the forsaken thinking he was safe from compulsion maybe it is just one of the differences between the powers that men cannot be controlled when they are using it and women can.

maybe its why only the female Forsaken are being turned into Moridinís pets and Demandred is still walking free

Enigma
09-18-2011, 02:34 PM
maybe but Rand could also ignore the Draghkar while he was channeling add this to the forsaken thinking he was safe from compulsion maybe it is just one of the differences between the powers that men cannot be controlled when they are using it and women can.

Have we seen any female channelers who were overcome by Draghkar while activly holding the one power?

maybe its why only the female Forsaken are being turned into Moridinís pets and Demandred is still walking free

Well Demandred has not exactly messed up yet and while we don't know a lot about him, from the comments we have been given about Deamandred he strikes me as the sort who will break before he bends, i.e. getting him to incline his head and follow general orders is about as much as Moridin can expect. Anything more and Moridin would have a fight on his hands even if he is all anointed by the DO.

confused at birth
09-18-2011, 04:57 PM
Have we seen any female channelers who were overcome by Draghkar while activly holding the one power?


not sure but the time i can think of is moiraine she was useless until warders helped her. Moiraine didnt think that holding the power would save her, maybe it is just something Tar Valon has never learnt

there does seem to be some gender control issues for this, the Aes Sedai couldnt use linking to control men after the breaking but they did for controling each other even if only the blacks remember how. same seems to go for other ways of control maybe its just another of the balances between the powers.fire VS water, earth VS air
men are stronger so women get more skill this could be the way of balancing the fact that women can link but men cant, even if they gang up on a man they cant control him.



or its just that girls have to surrender to control the power and men fight it so women have already surrendered so they can be conrolled maybe thats why a'dams work on them.

Who knows?

Zombie Sammael
09-18-2011, 05:31 PM
not sure but the time i can think of is moiraine she was useless until warders helped her. Moiraine didnt think that holding the power would save her, maybe it is just something Tar Valon has never learnt

there does seem to be some gender control issues for this, the Aes Sedai couldnt use linking to control men after the breaking but they did for controling each other even if only the blacks remember how. same seems to go for other ways of control maybe its just another of the balances between the powers.fire VS water, earth VS air
men are stronger so women get more skill this could be the way of balancing the fact that women can link but men cant, even if they gang up on a man they cant control him.



or its just that girls have to surrender to control the power and men fight it so women have already surrendered so they can be conrolled maybe thats why a'dams work on them.

Who knows?

The forced link was invented in the Third Age, not the Breaking or the AOL. We don't know precisely when it was developed, so it might have initially been used in an attempt to control male channelers, but as it's something used exclusively by the Black Ajah I doubt it.

As for Moiraine and the Draghkar, it's possible that holding Saidar would give protection from various things that might be described as compulsion, but channelling once already under the effect would not.

Interesting observation about the a'dam. That would go some way to explaining why the male equivalent works so poorly; as controlling Saidin in a struggle, so too is controlling a male channeller.

confused at birth
09-18-2011, 05:54 PM
it's possible that holding Saidar would give protection from various things that might be described as compulsion, but channelling once already under the effect would not.


the only times i can remember the men were always already channeling or holding the power so no clue which might give the protection. I think it was Sammael who thought that holding it would be enough to stop compulsion. have never seen women escape compulsion or anything like it without fighting the one trying to control them with the power.

your right that channeling after you get hit with compulsion wouldnt make a difference or it would have been useless, you would have to order them to never use the power again and that would make it a crappy weave that no one in Tar valon would be scared of

As for Moiraine and the Draghkar, it's possible that holding Saidar would give protection from various things that might be described as compulsion, but channelling once already under the effect would not.


she was helpless until Lan and whats his face stabbed it then she managed to clear her head and then intended to kill it but she didnt have any trouble thinking after she was holding saidar but doesnt think that it would be able to protect her.
Aviendha was useless as well but Rand doesnt think about her using the power at all apart from when he thinks she tries to kill him so i dont know if she was using saidar when it caught her.
so these dont show if saidar did offer the same protection so until someone shreds this theory i think it is just the difference in powers giving different benefits.

The forced link was invented in the Third Age

I did say after the breaking :D
Tar Valon has been very naughty even from the beginning:mad:

Enigma
09-19-2011, 09:24 AM
With regard to Moiriane and the Draghkar was Moiraine activly holding the power before it began to sing? I can't recall myself but if she was not holding the power the fact that she needed Lan would prove nothing because Sammael's comment seems to suggest that the ability to channel is not enough, one must be activly channeling. Saying that we still have the problem of Moggy overcoming Nynaeve & Elayne when they were holding the power.

Given that there could be elements of the True Power is some of the Shadowspawn abilities just because they have the same effect it would probably be safer to look at each thing seperatly eg. Compusling throught the bond, ordinary compulsion and then the power of a Draghkar's voice. Protection from one might not protect against another.

As far as the force link goes the only clue I can remember reading was when one of hte AS is explaining to the Windfinders about linking before they use the bowl of winds. She seemed to say that a lot of research was done on links after the breaking with the intent of finding someway to control male channelers who were going mad. They discovered that a man can't be forced into a link but reading between the lines she hinted that the AS discovered that a sufficinetly large circle could draw in a woman against her will.

It does not seem to be something only the BA use. When the bubble of evil struck the rebel AS before Nynaeve overcame her block she tried to embrace the source to join a link and failed several times. The way the scene was written made it seem that the AS holding the link eventually lost patience and pulled Nynaeve in.

Weiramon
09-20-2011, 04:59 PM
Burn my soul, it's worrisome where this Alanna Sedai has gone. It would not be a surprise to hear she has returned to her native Arafel, at the behest of this Verin Sedai.

No doubt this Verin Sedai sought to undermine the Lord Dragon by casting doubts on his most loyal followers. Like that Mazrim Taim, who was in Arafel before joining the Black Tower. Arafel, which faithfully paid tribute to that Nesita Sedai, who was likely murdered in that purge by that young puppet of an Amyrlin. Arafel, where the King's own sister is an Aes Sedai, no doubt as loyal as any to the White Tower.

GonzoTheGreat
09-20-2011, 05:10 PM
With regard to Moiriane and the Draghkar was Moiraine activly holding the power before it began to sing?No, she wasn't. She tried to embrace the OP when she noticed the Draghkar, but by then it was too late.

Another case, less clear:
Rand channeled, and finger-thin balefire burned past her, an arrow of solid light, to take the Draghkar in the head. The effect of that narrower stream was slower, but no less sure than with the Darkhounds. The creature's colors reversed, black to white, white to black, and it became sparkling motes that melted in air.
Aviendha shook herself as the crooning ended, stared at the last particles as they vanished, and turned to Rand, gathering the blanket closer. Her hand came up, and a stream of fire as thick as his head roared toward him.Did she grasp sai'dar while she was turning towards Rand, or had she done so before and had still been enchanted by the Draghkar?

FelixPax
09-20-2011, 10:46 PM
#1 Question for HCFF's: Does Blue Sky or Clouds appear where ever Alanna's goes, in the Towers of Midnight book?



#2 Question for HCFF's: Who do you think or believe is tied to a 'blood-red seal of wax' found in Alanna's quarters in the Stone of Tear?

She reached over to the desk, holding up a sheet of paper that they'd found in the room. It had been folded with a blood-red seal of wax on one side. "Do you recognize this?"

Nynaeve frowned. "No. Should I?"


Towers of Midnight, Chapter "An Empty Ink Bottle" -- Cadsuane point of view, with Nynaeve, Corele, Rafela Cindal, Bera Harkin, Min


A sign and symbol of a letter from Verin Sedai to Alanna?



The forced link was invented in the Third Age, not the Breaking or the AOL. We don't know precisely when it was developed, so it might have initially been used in an attempt to control male channelers, but as it's something used exclusively by the Black Ajah I doubt it.

That's quite a claim, considering how Time is said to operate. It's a Circle! Why? The Creator (Dreamer) made it so.

Let alone taking into account how the Shadow previously sought to turn L.T.T. during the 2nd Age. Mierin/Lanfear mentions it, and Elan Morin Tedronai shows it.

Forced Links existed before the 3rd Age. It isn't new at all, only a variation on a theme.



Interesting observation about the a'dam. That would go some way to explaining why the male equivalent works so poorly; as controlling Saidin in a struggle, so too is controlling a male channeller.

The Male a'dam as a mechanism or narrative tool, is in terms of outcomes in somewhat similar to a Plural Marriage. A marriage where two females wed a single man. In both cases, the man gains more and more control over time. It's akin to a briar patch of thorns.

These parallel outcomes are the exact reason why, Moghedien decides against using the Male a'dam or being part of a Plural Marriage. Moghedien values her independence. Whereas, Elayne and Fortuona ultimately have an alternative set of values & beliefs. Their each a bit native and inexperienced too. Moghedien is neither of those. Nor is Matrim Cauthon inexperienced nor native. (Problem for Matrim is the Aelfinn and Eelfinn have played a grand joke on him. They're set him up for Plural Marriage. Mat's version of the male a'dam does not use the Power, it uses Promises to create the bond that tie.)

Moghedien and Matrim Cauthon ironically enough have quite a bit in common as tricksters. The Spider, The Rabbit.