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Denul
09-13-2011, 12:07 AM
While re reading The Great Hunt I found a clue in Nynaeve's Accepted test as to how the bore is to be sealed. I think that the wheel uses the threads of the One Power to created everything in the randland universe.

Chapter 28 The Testing

Saidar was a torrent racing through her. She could fel the rocks aroud her, and the air, feel the tiny, flowing bits of the One Power that suffused them, and made them.


I honestly believe that LTT orignal plan would have worked had he had female channelers with me. He was going to re create the piece of the pattern that was destroyed during the boring, and tie it into the original pattern with the seals. Then with the Aiel sing the patch to life with the Song.

Terez
09-14-2011, 12:23 AM
1. RJ said that if the women had assisted Lews Therin then saidar would have been tainted as well.

2. There is no song.

GonzoTheGreat
09-14-2011, 05:20 AM
1. RJ said that if the women had assisted Lews Therin then saidar would have been tainted as well.

2. There is no song.True, but if you discount those facts (either one of which is admittedly enough to scuttle this theory), then it's not a bad idea at all.

Welcome to The Board, Denul. May you find water (you could use some right now, having been set on fire by Terez already) and shades (to protect your eyes from the glare of our brilliance).

Terez
09-14-2011, 06:11 AM
What's funny is that I posted about the tainted saidar thing at the Malazan forums relatively recently (and this one would appear to be a Malaz fan from the name). I wasn't trying to flame anyone though. Just saying.

Crispin's Crispian
09-14-2011, 12:08 PM
There is no song? When did that become a fact?

Rand al'Fain
09-14-2011, 12:48 PM
There is no song? When did that become a fact?

Well, the song that the Tinkers are looking for is the one that the Aiel and Ogier are singing to make the plants grow. So, it did exist, but it doesn't hold the power that the Tinkers think it does.

Davian93
09-14-2011, 12:50 PM
Well, the song that the Tinkers are looking for is the one that the Aiel and Ogier are singing to make the plants grow. So, it did exist, but it doesn't hold the power that the Tinkers think it does.

Well, it grows crops that are immune to blight (something that would be important if one were to say, get rid of the Blight) so it actually does kinda hold some power. Also, getting rid of blight might be helpful in getting rid of say, The Dark One who caused the Blight.

Its not all that ridiculous...despite claims to the contrary.

Rand al'Fain
09-14-2011, 01:02 PM
Well, it grows crops that are immune to blight (something that would be important if one were to say, get rid of the Blight) so it actually does kinda hold some power. Also, getting rid of blight might be helpful in getting rid of say, The Dark One who caused the Blight.

Its not all that ridiculous...despite claims to the contrary.
Don't the Tinkers believe that the song would make the "world go Tinker," for lack of a better phrase? Not saying it doesn't have power, just not the power that the Tinkers believe it has.

Juan
09-14-2011, 01:03 PM
No no no. The song is that since of Jak whatever the rest is. The one Mat sung and his Band adopted as their theme song. Jak o the shadows or something like that. That's the song. :P

Zombie Sammael
09-14-2011, 01:29 PM
I'm kinda glad that there aren't songs in WOT. They were the worst part of Lord of the Rings.

Davian93
09-14-2011, 01:37 PM
Dont forget the walking and more walking and more walking...also, Tom Bombadil, the numerous plot inconsistencies, the tacked on ending (both in the books and the movies...albeit at least the 3rd movie didnt add another 45 min to show us the Shire getting burned), the walking, more walking, some more walking, etc etc.

Zombie Sammael
09-14-2011, 01:39 PM
Dont forget the walking and more walking and more walking...also, Tom Bombadil, the numerous plot inconsistencies, the tacked on ending (both in the books and the movies...albeit at least the 3rd movie didnt add another 45 min to show us the Shire getting burned), the walking, more walking, some more walking, etc etc.

But even with all that, the absolute worst part was still the songs. That's why the Tinkers can't find one in Randland; they're all in Middle Earth.

Weiramon
09-14-2011, 01:56 PM
Burn my soul, there is no song. Don't let those peddlers let anyone think otherwise. Worse than peasants, impossible to collect levies on them, and as for pressing them into foot, they aren't even good for that.

No, the Last Battle will be won the old way. By force of arms. No doubt a magnificent cavalry charge will carry the day.

As for any Aes Sedai who might claim that the Great . . . I mean the Dark One . . . is not fighting this battle the way many think, any claims from such an Aes Sedai should be dismissed, as she is likely a known liar and it would not be a surprise to hear she is Black Ajah.

The Lord Dragon himself knows this, commanding that Mazrim Taim fellow to make weapons out of the Asha'man. It is clear there is no disagreement that the Lord Dragon is infallible.

Rand al'Fain
09-14-2011, 01:56 PM
No no no. The song is that since of Jak whatever the rest is. The one Mat sung and his Band adopted as their theme song. Jak o the shadows or something like that. That's the song. :P

Of course! In this world, the answer to everything is 42, in WOT, the answer to everything is the song Jak o the Shadows!:D

Weird Harold
09-14-2011, 02:00 PM
Well, the song that the Tinkers are looking for is the one that the Aiel and Ogier are singing to make the plants grow. So, it did exist, but it doesn't hold the power that the Tinkers think it does.

The original "tinkers" werem't looking for a song, they were looking for a safe place to sing:

Sulwin stepped back, then held his ground with his companions. "No, Adan. We are supposed to find a place of safety, and some of us mean to do that. My greatfather used to tell me stories he heard as a boy, stories of when we lived in safety and people came to hear us sing. We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again."

"Sing?" Adan scoffed. "I have heard those old stories, too, that Aiel singing was a wondrous thing, but you know those old songs no more than I do. The songs are gone, and the old days are gone. We will not give up our duty to the Aes Sedai to chase after what is lost forever."

"Some of us will, Adan." The others behind Sulwin nodded. "We mean to find that safe place. And the songs, too. We will!"


Note the plural of songs.

By the time of the Peace of Rhuidean, the Tinkers had forgotten they were looking for a safe place to sing, butt hey were still looking for songs, plural:

The Jenn had made things to draw up water and spill it into great stone basins. He had fought battles over less water than one of those tanks held, with people walking by as though water was of no consequence. A strange forest of glass rose in the center of all their activity, glittering in the sun, and near it the tallest tree he had ever seen, at least three spans high. Their stone structures looked as if each was meant to contain an entire hold, an entire sept, when done. Madness. This Rhuidean could not be defended. Not that anyone would attack the Jenn, of course. Most avoided the Jenn as they avoided the accursed Lost Ones, who wandered searching for the songs they claimed would bring back lost days.

A thousand years or so has corrupted the Tinkers search even further, to the point where they are seeking a single song -- a single song that has never existed.

The Tinkers right from the very beginning searched for something that doesn't exist and never has existed.

Davian93
09-14-2011, 02:08 PM
Seed Singing DOES exist though...it just requires Ogier and most likely Nym too. So, the essence of what they're searching for is theoretically out there. Just as soon as they get some AS to Construct some Nym for them.

Enigma
09-14-2011, 02:13 PM
And given that a lot of food is going off in seconds, the world could really do with Seed Singing about now.

The Aiel in the AoL were invovled in the Seed Singing. I wonder is it a requirement that the people invovled avoid committing violence? If it is a requirement the only group left to fit the bill would be the Tinkers.

Weird Harold
09-14-2011, 02:37 PM
Seed Singing DOES exist though...it just requires Ogier and most likely Nym too. So, the essence of what they're searching for is theoretically out there. Just as soon as they get some AS to Construct some Nym for them.
Seed Singing is only a very small part of what the proto-tinkers were looking for -- and is probably known, in the form of Ogier Treesinging, to present-day tinkers.

The "Song" doesn't exist and never has existed. Aiel singing, especially seed singing, may well figure in the patching of the Pattern, but it isn't the song the Tinkers are searching for.

AbbeyRoad
09-14-2011, 02:54 PM
A thousand years or so has corrupted the Tinkers search even further, to the point where they are seeking a single song -- a single song that has never existed.
'The song' is a metaphor. It's just too bad the Tinkers are confused about that fact.

Davian93
09-14-2011, 02:56 PM
'The song' is a metaphor. It's just too bad the Tinkers are confused about that fact.

Well, in their defense, it has been 3500 years since the Breaking.

Crispin's Crispian
09-14-2011, 03:04 PM
Well, in their defense, it has been 3500 years since the Breaking.

LTT to Isha'mael: "Have you the Voice?"

There are many indications that the Song of the Tuatha'an is a metaphor for something real. Sure, they search is for the wrong thing, but its roots may be in a real phenomenon that could potentially help someone, somewhere.

The "Song" doesn't exist and never has existed. Aiel singing, especially seed singing, may well figure in the patching of the Pattern, but it isn't the song the Tinkers are searching for. You're telling me you don't think it's possible that some Aes Sedai will be discovered to have The Voice, and will sing along with Loial in the presence of some Tinkers who will whip out a 1,500 year old book that has scraps of song lyrics?

C'mon. That's totally going to happen.

Zombie Sammael
09-14-2011, 03:29 PM
You're telling me you don't think it's possible that some Aes Sedai will be discovered to have The Voice, and will sing along with Loial in the presence of some Tinkers who will whip out a 1,500 year old book that has scraps of song lyrics?

C'mon. That's totally going to happen.

I'm looking forward to the bit where Rand gets stabbed with Callandor then stands up and uses it as a conductor's baton, myself.

Davian93
09-14-2011, 03:46 PM
LTT to Isha'mael: "Have you the Voice?"

There are many indications that the Song of the Tuatha'an is a metaphor for something real. Sure, they search is for the wrong thing, but its roots may be in a real phenomenon that could potentially help someone, somewhere.

You're telling me you don't think it's possible that some Aes Sedai will be discovered to have The Voice, and will sing along with Loial in the presence of some Tinkers who will whip out a 1,500 year old book that has scraps of song lyrics?

C'mon. That's totally going to happen.

The capitalization hints that its an actual Talent so it would be interesting to see it happen in aMoL.

Crispin's Crispian
09-14-2011, 04:15 PM
I'm looking forward to the bit where Rand gets stabbed with Callandor then stands up and uses it as a conductor's baton, myself.

Me, I'm looking forward to hearing Loial sing "Freebird."

Weird Harold
09-14-2011, 04:16 PM
There are many indications that the Song of the Tuatha'an is a metaphor for something real. Sure, they search is for the wrong thing, but its roots may be in a real phenomenon that could potentially help someone, somewhere.

The proto-tinkers didn't go in search of something tangible, they went in search of "a safe place to sing" The metaphorical Song modern tinkers are seeking has its roots in that "safe place to sing" but has morphed into a singular song that will create that "safe place to sing" -- no such song exists nor ever has existed.

Seed-singing, or some close relation like tree-singing, may well play a part in aMoL, but that isn't the Song, even metaphorically, that the tinkers seek.

LTT to Isha'mael: "Have you the Voice?"You're telling me you don't think it's possible that some Aes Sedai will be discovered to have The Voice, and will sing along with Loial in the presence of some Tinkers who will whip out a 1,500 year old book that has scraps of song lyrics?

C'mon. That's totally going to happen.

Rand has the Voice and so does Loial. It is entirely possible that some of the Aiel clan chiefs have the Voice -- and will break the taboo against Aiel Singing.

However, IMHO, the Tinkers aren't going to be involved in any way with any magical singing -- 1500/yo songbook or no. Various Tinkers over the years have probably had, and cultivated, the Voice but dismissed it and tree-singing as not relevant to the Song. The Tinkers, IMHO, will be punished by the Pattern by a non-tinker and Aiel showing them what they've forgotten.

Juan
09-14-2011, 05:01 PM
Me, I'm looking forward to hearing Loial sing "Freebird."

Lol every time I play with my band at a show, one of my friends screams out Free Bird. Last time that happened I figured wed play it to shut them up hahah.

AbbeyRoad
09-14-2011, 06:54 PM
Last time that happened I figured wed play it to shut them up hahah.
Did you include the ridiculously long guitar solo? Because the first part is rather bland, IMO.

Terez
09-15-2011, 12:26 AM
I'm kinda glad that there aren't songs in WOT. They were the worst part of Lord of the Rings.
I set this one to a four-part chorale in my head:

Still 'round the corner
There may wait
A new road
Or a secret gate
And though I oft'
Have passed them by
The day will come
At last when I
Shall take the hidden
Paths that run
West of the moon,
East of the sun.

^^ That one rocks.

Lupusdeusest
09-15-2011, 12:32 AM
I'm kinda glad that there aren't songs in WOT. They were the worst part of Lord of the Rings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNVt_r7TRNY
The Shadow Rising, chapter 42.

Lupusdeusest
09-15-2011, 12:33 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNVt_r7TRNY
The Shadow Rising, chapter 42.

Hur, hur. Just noticed "42". I guess this links it back to Jack o' the Shadows.

Roker
10-08-2011, 04:38 AM
Hey everybody! Had to register since I was puzzled about a thing considering the Tinkers..

..is it possible they would be allowed to visit Rhuidean now, or say, Rand would take their leader or 'most prominent' there and they would rediscover something more about singing the song?

I'm sorry if it's been said somewhere that there is absolutely no possibility for there being a song for assisting in pwning the Dark One, but I'd feel bummed out if it didn't play a major role in the last book :P

I know the Nym are believed to be extinct which is a bummer surely, but who knows..

GonzoTheGreat
10-08-2011, 06:34 AM
I'm not sure it would be a matter of "being allowed". I don't think the Aiel would try to keep Tinkers out, as that would have to involve violence (or the threat thereof), and they don't use that against Tinkers.
But I don't think any Tinkers have even considered going to Rhuidean, which makes it a rather moot point.

For quite a couple of books, I thought that Aram would end up going there. That seems unlikely, now.

padfoot89
10-08-2011, 11:53 AM
Rand has the Voice and so does Loial.

Rand has the Voice ? When did this happen ?