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steave435
09-15-2011, 11:55 AM
Has it ever been confirmed what the answer to Rands question about how he can win the last battle and survive refers to?
I can't find the exact quote, but I remember it goes something like "The north and east must be as one. The west and south must be as one. The two must be as one".
Obviously "the north and east" is the lands controlled by Rand and "the west and south" is the Seanchan, but I'm not so sure about the last part.
From what I've seen googling and generally just lurking around here from time to time during the last few years, noone has ever questioned the general assumption that it refers to the Seanchan and Rand controlled areas.

Does that really fit though? It's quite possible that they will end up forming an alliance in the end, but that doesn't really make them one, which should require them to unite under one ruler and become, effectively, one big country.

So what does it refer to then? Well, obviously, "the two" can be anything that there is atleast 2 of in the world, but considering the context, I think it's most likely the White and Black towers.
The "prophecy" just mentioned the only 2 empires that exist this side of the waste, so to me it would make sense if the third statement was also referring to the (soon to be if this has any merit) third and final unaffiliated superpower in the world, the reunited male and female "Aes Sedai".

Am I missing something?

Terez
09-15-2011, 12:32 PM
Does that really fit though? It's quite possible that they will end up forming an alliance in the end, but that doesn't really make them one, which should require them to unite under one ruler and become, effectively, one big country.
That's precisely what I think will happen. However, the future Aviendha saw might have fulfilled it in the sense that they were 'as one' for the duration of the Last Battle, at which point they went back to being separate but peaceful.

So what does it refer to then? Well, obviously, "the two" can be anything that there is at least 2 of in the worldOnly if you're willing to stretch the wording of the prophecy that far into deception territory. They like to answer in riddles, but saying 'the two' in reference to something other than the two prerequisites just mentioned is not what I would call truthful. And we know that they always tell the truth (in answer to those three questions, anyway) so long as the questions are about your own future.

So, it's very unlikely that they weren't referring to the Seanchan truce. Also worth keeping in mind is that the marriage between Mat and Tuon is probably the essence of the two being as one, and that element of becoming one is strong in marriage symbolism.

That being said, in order for Mat to have bargaining power with Tuon, he'll probably need unity, and IMO that's foreshadowed in Nicola's Foretelling: 'The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.' Rand is dead (yet lives), which fits with Egwene's dream of Logain rising to power over Rand's dead (yet insubstantial) body. Good thing Egwene and Logain are already best friends.

PS - Since this is more theoretical than technical, I made it a thread.

Davian93
09-15-2011, 12:36 PM
Wouldn't it be fun if Logain "let slip" that he lied for Siuan/Leane and Egwene not only knew about the lies but also helped him escape when she was Amyrlin?

I mean, that would just be hilarious.

Terez
09-15-2011, 12:37 PM
Wouldn't it be fun if Logain "let slip" that he lied for Siuan/Leane and Egwene not only knew about the lies but also helped him escape when she was Amyrlin?

I mean, that would just be hilarious.
lol. Well, if he were you, he might do that. But he's Logain.

FelixPax
09-15-2011, 01:43 PM
Has it ever been confirmed what the answer to Rands question about how he can win the last battle and survive refers to?
I can't find the exact quote, but I remember it goes something like "The north and east must be as one. The west and south must be as one. The two must be as one".

Obviously "the north and east" is the lands controlled by Rand and "the west and south" is the Seanchan, but I'm not so sure about the last part.

There's more than one geographically consistent interpretation possible with this particular Aelfinn answer to Rand al'Thor: "The north and east must be as one". (KoD, Chapter 18)



Assumptions nor answers of who or what is the center, the distances involved, nor group units were given by the Aelfinn's answers to Rand al'Thor.


In other words is the Aelfinn's Portal Stone found in Tear the Center? Is a Person the Center? Is a Star in the Sky above, have or possess a Center? Are each of these correct, multiple Center layers?


Additionally, if one alters the focus of how to interpret from Land to Wind... one ends up viewing an equally valid alternative set of foci.


Recollect the Sea Folk Clan's Ancient Oaths spoken by Birgitte? Or one of Tylin's Titles 'Mistress of the Four Winds'? (Now a Title of King Beslan, perhaps restylized as 'Guardian of the Four Winds'? What is does the Wind represent? Wind = Ta'verens. Wind/Storms = Men. Remember Nynaeve al'Meara's Weather Sense.)


Likewise if one refocuses the alternative of Center from Land to the bodies of water or Oceans... one ends up viewing an equally valid alternative set of foci.


Even Crabs, Dolphins, Whales and all Ocean creatures are effected by the Aelfinn's claims of: "The north and east must be as one. The west and south must be as one."



Interestingly, the third sentence the Aelfinn spoken of, does not even have to have a geographical meaning: "The two must be as one.'” (KoD, Chapter 18) It can also represent a union of two souls or two groups.



Am I missing something?

That question is not cut and dry. There is no simple answer.


Who is the Center of the Storm? Who is the Dragon?

steave435
09-15-2011, 01:44 PM
That's precisely what I think will happen. However, the future Aviendha saw might have fulfilled it in the sense that they were 'as one' for the duration of the Last Battle, at which point they went back to being separate but peaceful.
We're pretty close to the end now though, and the Seanchan are still dead set in their belief about what needs to be done to all channelers, and the need to go to war. I have a hard time believing that for example Elayne would be willing to give up her rule and give the Seanchan authority over Andor and Cairhien, and at the same time, it's unlikely Tuon would step aside and let Rand rule Seanchan, especially considering the result of their last meeting. It would require the Seanchan to accept channelers, and Aviendhas vision showed that to be unlikely.
A temporary alliance mediated by Mat is likely, but that is a pretty far away from truly being one rather then 2 loosely affiliated entities.


Only if you're willing to stretch the wording of the prophecy that far into deception territory. They like to answer in riddles, but saying 'the two' in reference to something other than the two prerequisites just mentioned is not what I would call truthful.
Why not? If they don't specify that it is the previous two entities that they're referring to, it's not a lie if they're actually talking about something else. It's the kind of answer an aes sedai could give, while still telling the truth, and from the writers perspective, specifically mentioning the towers that early (I can't remember exactly when we found out about his answers for the first time, but IIRC it was pretty early) would be revealing too much, so it would require some deception.

So, it's very unlikely that they weren't referring to the Seanchan truce. Also worth keeping in mind is that the marriage between Mat and Tuon is probably the essence of the two being as one, and that element of becoming one is strong in marriage symbolism.
Mat isn't in charge of anything except the band though...while he'd make creating an alliance much easier, their marriage can hardly represent the world uniting into one. I'd buy it if Rand was marrying Tuon, but not Mat.

That being said, in order for Mat to have bargaining power with Tuon, he'll probably need unity
Not sure what you mean here, he already has half the world united under Rand.
If you mean unity between the towers, that would IMO further indicate that that's what the third part of the Answer is refering to, requiring the world to be united in 3 groups to give Rands side the strength needed to convince Tuon to temporarily join the alliance.

Regarding Nicola's Foretelling, and several other prophecies similar to it, they emphasize the division in the land too much. For example, assuming that Rand does indeed have to die and yet somehow be alive again while the world is still divided, that further cuts down on the time available for it to happen, and would put it during a time when the last battle has truly started, and they're unlikely to have time for much more then fighting a war.


Finally, do you know where his answers were revealed? I'd like to re-read it, but can't remember.
For example, I can't remember if Rands questions regarding how he can win the last battle and survive were combined into one question or not.
If they were, combining all the nations might not be required in order to win, but to win and let Rand survive.
I think it will be fully fulfilled, but if victory is possible without that complete unity, that opens up possibilities for what might go differently compared to the future Aviendha saw.

The Unreasoner
09-16-2011, 03:30 AM
Finally, do you know where his answers were revealed? I'd like to re-read it, but can't remember.
For example, I can't remember if Rands questions regarding how he can win the last battle and survive were combined into one question or not.
If they were, combining all the nations might not be required in order to win, but to win and let Rand survive.
I think it will be fully fulfilled, but if victory is possible without that complete unity, that opens up possibilities for what might go differently compared to the future Aviendha saw.

As far as I can remember, this specific Q & A wasn't known until KoD, 18. It may have been mentioned earlier though.

The quote itself:
Rand dropped back into his chair, stretching his legs in front of him and crossing his ankles. “It doesn't matter how unpopular it is. I went through that doorframe ter'angreal in Tear, Cadsuane. You know about that?” Golden ornaments bobbled as she nodded impatiently. “One of my questions for the Aelfinn was 'How can I win the Last Battle?'”

“A dangerous question to pose.” she said quietly, ”touching on the Shadow as it does. Supposedly, the results can be quite unpleasant. What was the answer?”

“ 'The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one.'” He blew a smoke ring, put another in the middle of it as it expanded. That was not the whole of it. He had asked how to win and survive. The last part of his answer had been 'To live, you must die.' Not something he was going to bring up in front of Min anytime soon. In front of anyone except Alivia, for that matter. Now he just had to figure out how to live by dying. “At first, I thought it meant I had to conquer everywhere, but that wasn't what they said. What if it means the Seanchan hold the west and south, as you could say they already do, and there's an alliance to fight the Last Battle, the Seanchan with everybody else?”

I don't have much else to say on the topic, or at least not much else fully vetted and ready to go, but I have some thoughts:

1. You raise what I think is a very valid point, one that I have not seen really discussed. Or at least, when the thought came to me before, I looked and found nothing. But:
For example, I can't remember if Rands questions regarding how he can win the last battle and survive were combined into one question or not.
If they were, combining all the nations might not be required in order to win, but to win and let Rand survive.
And they were combined. Could it be that whatever mechanism grants the Aelfinn foresight is more restricted than we believe? Maybe frivolous questions aren't punished because of some judgment by the Aelfinn, but because of the laws regulating the process itself. I seem to remember that staying and hearing the complete answers is required. And that frivolous questions asked by one person are not always frivolous coming from another. Maybe asking frivolous questions is more or less the same as asking questions concerning the history of another. Maybe an answer demands on the immediate presence of a thread that would be significantly affected by the outcome. If the future of the thread posing the question would be unaffected by the answer, 'punishment' may be being required to remain and hear an answer that cannot ever come, as it requires a sort of metaphysical 'division by zero'. The punishment may be nothing more than the natural consequence of metaphysical law interacting with circumstance.

And if the Aelfinn are constrained by the process even further, every answer is conceivably always to the entire question, and cannot be parceled with meaning. It may be possible that if Rand had not asked about surviving, the answer wouldn't just drop the last line but be entire different. Maybe something as simple as: use a circle with the Choedan Kal to launch an attack at SG. Anyway..

2. The wording of the last bit is absolutely uncertain. It was originally heard by Rand as spoken in the Old Tounge, and so it was translated at least once. And we have two descriptions of it: "If you would live", and to live" (you must die). In fact, if I were a pessimist, I might conclude for Rand to live, things will have to play out so that Rand will have no desire to. Or if I liked being bored, I would think it simply was saying "to live (again), you must die (now)"

3. "As one" is a tricky thing. One state/nation wouldn't do it. It's likely correlated though. But barring massive and immediate changes, it won't happen in the east. And Aviendha's visions suggest that it doesn't need too. Not to mention that America directly before the Civil War was only 'one nation' in name. Even if everyone swore fealty to Tuon today, the mental identities of the leaders and their people would remain distinct. And not just distinct, but not Seanchan.

It does seem that we generally have the right of it though. 'As one' in the east may be something like what already exists for the Borderlands. A shared opposition of the Shadow, a pledge of mutual support, and allied to the White Tower. The "two as one" could allow further basic differences, like with saidin and saidar. Two halves but One Power.

Terez
09-16-2011, 03:36 AM
We're pretty close to the end now though, and the Seanchan are still dead set in their belief about what needs to be done to all channelers, and the need to go to war.
The need to go to war is more of a belief that everyone should be a part of the Empire. RJ often said he was a monarchist, which means he probably believed that absolute power is the simplest way of going about things (saves a lot of bureaucracy and such) and works best if you have people in power who know what they're doing and don't abuse it much.

Take Hawkwing, for example. He was, by all appearances, the sort of monarch RJ had in mind when he thought of himself as a monarchist. What's interesting is that Hawkwing was, by virtue of being the very first Emperor, very harsh on the monarchs and nobility that he conquered. He erased the national borders and made districts that drew out completely new territories. They were generally governed by people from elsewhere in the Empire. He was, therefore, much loved by the common people for bringing order to the land and much despised by the nobility because he took away everything they cared about. (Not everything, since Hawkwing was not stupid and therefore recognized that rulers were trained to be administrators, and he often made them governors, but what is that to a king?)

Apparently, Tuon is also an example of someone who will be an excellent dictator. She has weaknesses, but a couple of them are weaknesses that Mat won't live with. He won't ever come take his place by her side so long as she collars channelers, for example. Fortunately, that system is already vulnerable to collapse simply by virtue of the secret of the sul'dam. And there is one area where she trumps Hawkwing, which brings me to your next objection:

I have a hard time believing that for example Elayne would be willing to give up her rule and give the Seanchan authority over Andor and Cairhien, and at the same time, it's unlikely Tuon would step aside and let Rand rule Seanchan, especially considering the result of their last meeting. It would require the Seanchan to accept channelers, and Aviendhas vision showed that to be unlikely.Rand's not going to rule anything. He's going to die, and then he's going to be resurrected, and then he's going to go live in the Westwood with Min (and when Min dies Elayne and Aviendha will join him). Technically, Aviendha's future didn't show anything to be likely or unlikely - it just showed one possible future, which was presumably the most likely possible future at the time she touched the columns. She didn't see Mat, and with Mat's survival uncertain at Ghenjei, that might make all the difference.

As for Elayne and everyone else, note the contrast between Hawkwing and Tuon in her dealings with Tylin and Beslan. Tuon was even friendly with Tylin and treated her as an equal under the veil. Tylin was not only still queen of Altara, but by virtue of the Empire's support, she controlled all of Altara for the first time in generations. Elayne herself showed a great deal of empirical ambition in TOM, and I get the feeling like Brandon was trying to make us anticipate with eagerness the scene in AMOL where she will be forced to show some humility.

I think Tenobia and Bashere will die before the truce, probably near the beginning of AMOL during the Battle of Caemlyn or at Tarwin's Gap. Faile and Perrin get the Broken Crown, Moiraine and Thom get the Sun Throne, and Mat and Tuon get the Empire. If Lan and Nynaeve don't die, they will be another shared crown, further buttressing this issue that is so important to you and which you think fulfills this prophecy. (It doesn't.)

A temporary alliance mediated by Mat is likely, but that is a pretty far away from truly being one rather then 2 loosely affiliated entities.I don't think a temporary truce is in the works at all because of the marriage issue. Are we supposed to believe that Mat and Tuon just go their separate ways? I don't buy it...and in order for those two to live together, then the damane issue has to be solved. If that issue is going to be solved, then there has to be some sort of compromise. The Empire is that compromise. And because Tuon is not Hawkwing, it's not a bad compromise at all.

Why not? If they don't specify that it is the previous two entities that they're referring toI'm saying that they did specify which two entities they were referring to. I'm not saying that the gender symbolism isn't going to be all up in it, or that it won't extend to Logain and Egwene. I'm just saying, the truce with the Seanchan is necessary in order for Rand to win the Last Battle. There are a number of things that make that clear, including the importance of Mat's marriage to Tuon, and the fact that the Seanchan were introduced in book two and foreshadowed in book one.

It's the kind of answer an aes sedai could give, while still telling the truth, and from the writers perspective, specifically mentioning the towers that early (I can't remember exactly when we found out about his answers for the first time, but IIRC it was pretty early) would be revealing too much, so it would require some deception.In the deceptive form you suggest, then it would be impossible for the questioner to figure out what they meant by it. There's no indication that they use this level of deception in their answers, and there's definitely no indication that RJ would use this level of deception with his readers. The answer is a riddle. The geography references are a clue.

Mat isn't in charge of anything except the band though...You can guarantee that will change as soon as Rand dies. In fact, you might say it already has, since the Eelfinn said he was now 'the center of all'. Mat is good at gambling, and he's managed to put all of the girls in his debt. And then they left him in Ebou Dar and he married an Empress. And he's ta'veren. Read his last chapter in ACOS and tell me again he's not in charge of anything except the Band. ;)

while he'd make creating an alliance much easier, their marriage can hardly represent the world uniting into one. I'd buy it if Rand was marrying Tuon, but not Mat.Again, Rand is going to die. His job is to save the world at Shayol Ghul. The KC says he'll bind the north to the east, but they don't say he'll be the one to make the two as one. Amys dreamed of him cutting the wetlands in two with a sword. Mat is the one that has to do that, and he'll do it while Rand is dead. (Before the Last Battle is won.)

Not sure what you mean here, he already has half the world united under Rand.
If you mean unity between the towers, that would IMO further indicate that that's what the third part of the Answer is refering toNo, it just means that RJ likes layered symbolism. It doesn't mean that he writes blatantly deceptive prophecies. In other words, the unity between the Black and White towers has nothing to do with west/south, and only vaguely has to do with east/north. The words 'The two' without telling you what 'the two' happens to refer to leaves you in the logical position of either assuming that the two entities just referenced are 'the two' or making a huge leap.

Regarding Nicola's Foretelling, and several other prophecies similar to it, they emphasize the division in the land too much. For example, assuming that Rand does indeed have to die and yet somehow be alive again while the world is still divided, that further cuts down on the time available for it to happenIt depends on your perspective. I believe Rand was originally going to die at the end of TOM, and that got moved to the beginning of AMOL. Meanwhile, the Battle of Caemlyn is going on, and Logain steps over Rand's dead body to take control of the Asha'man. Presumably, Mat took control of the armies somewhere in the meantime. Meanwhile, Tuon is presumably attacking somewhere. Maybe the Tower. Maybe Logain has to save the Tower from the Seanchan after the Black Tower is dealt with. Maybe he helps save Caemlyn. Lots of things going on here, but Rand is dead. The three women are there to save him with the bond after Nynaeve rips Rand from Tel'aran'rhiod, and presumably this is happening around the time that Mat and Tuon are having a stare-down. (I think this will most likely be in the form of a battle at the borders of Illian, and Mat with the Horn.)

and would put it during a time when the last battle has truly started, and they're unlikely to have time for much more then fighting a war.Rand will end the war at Shayol Ghul, presumably after his resurrection, but he can't do that until the two are as one.

Finally, do you know where his answers were revealed? KOD 18 for the one question, TPOD 14 for the other.

For example, I can't remember if Rands questions regarding how he can win the last battle and survive were combined into one question or not.They were, but we're not sure if they counted it for two questions or not. In any case, we don't know what the third question was.

Daekyras
09-16-2011, 06:35 AM
I know this is way off topic and probably annoying but this is actually what came into my head when i read the title of this thread:

Movie Voice-over man:
*soft, light instrumental*
He was a boy in a village of no-consequence.

She was a world weary sorceress on a quest to save mankind.

Together they started a journey that would change the world.

*loud, crashing EPIC orchestral music as action scenes flash by"

Now, she is trapped in a world that is not a world within another world.

Who will save her?

*Cut to shot of Mat with hat brim low and blood on his face*

This autumn,

Michelle Phfeifer IS Moiraine
Henry Cavill IS Matrim Cauthon

And Featuring Acadamy award winner Andy Serkis as the *finn,

Its time to find out.

WHAT THE AELFINN SAID.
*Fade to Black.*

Sorry!

Terez
09-16-2011, 07:30 AM
I was hoping someone would notice that it was a chapter title.

GonzoTheGreat
09-16-2011, 07:37 AM
Let me rephrase Rand's question and answer in the form in which they actually occurred:

'How can I win and survive the Last Battle?'

'The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. To live, you must die.'Now, split it up again (this bit is speculation on my part, obviously):

'How can I win the Last Battle?'
'The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one.'

'How can I survive the Last Battle?'
'The two must be as one. To live, you must die.'

The former now suggests that the current political division of Randland is (more or less) what should be the end state).
The latter suggests that Rand and LTT should integrate (as they've done) and die (which they haven't managed yet, despite good attempts).

steave435
09-16-2011, 08:04 AM
Who is the Center of the Storm?
Well, OBVIOUSLY it's Bela. How else could a simple horse survive so much, and get so much time in the spotlight?

As far as I can remember, this specific Q & A wasn't known until KoD, 18. It may have been mentioned earlier though.

The quote itself:
Thanks :)

And they were combined. Could it be that whatever mechanism grants the Aelfinn foresight is more restricted than we believe? Maybe frivolous questions aren't punished because of some judgment by the Aelfinn, but because of the laws regulating the process itself.
Yeah, could be. We don't really have any evidence for it but..well, we don't have any evidence against it either, and it's better then the 0 other explanations I've heard.
Important things may be big enough to be set in stone so that the Aelfinn can predict it, but frivolous things are unimportant enough that it can go either way. To take an example from the first book (even if it may be inaccurate due to Rand being ta'veren), a normal person can choose if he wants to live on a farm or in the village, so he can't ask them that, but he could never become king, so they'll be able to give him an answer on that.
If you ask something that can go either way though, they could be required to explain every way it COULD go (and punish you extra for wasting their time for good measure), which could take quite a while...
However, while it is interesting, it is still only speculation of course, with nothing really backing it up.

2. The wording of the last bit is absolutely uncertain. It was originally heard by Rand as spoken in the Old Tounge, and so it was translated at least once.
Good point, however, have we ever had a case where we were told directly by the narrator what it meant which turned out to be translated the wrong way? If an another character was translating and we were watching it trough the POV of someone listening to the translation, that charachter may make a mistake, but when we're looking trough the translators POV and he simply understands, I doubt it.


3. "As one" is a tricky thing. One state/nation wouldn't do it. It's likely correlated though. But barring massive and immediate changes, it won't happen in the east. And Aviendha's visions suggest that it doesn't need too. ... Even if everyone swore fealty to Tuon today, the mental identities of the leaders and their people would remain distinct. And not just distinct, but not Seanchan.

Well, it would be "as one" enough for me to buy it. They may still be split in beliefs and loyalty, but they're still one empire under one empress. In fact, that would explain the need to describe the two "halves" first before describing them as combining into one.


The need to go to war is more of a belief that everyone should be a part of the Empire. RJ often said he was a monarchist, which means he probably believed that absolute power is the simplest way of going about things (saves a lot of bureaucracy and such) and works best if you have people in power who know what they're doing and don't abuse it much.
Ah ok, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.


Apparently, Tuon is also an example of someone who will be an excellent dictator. She has weaknesses, but a couple of them are weaknesses that Mat won't live with. He won't ever come take his place by her side so long as she collars channelers, for example. Fortunately, that system is already vulnerable to collapse simply by virtue of the secret of the sul'dam.
Is it? Tuon seemed to deal pretty well with the fact, justifying it with that even though she has the ability to learn, she chose not to, and it does make sense from their POV. Just because every human has the ability to become a murderer, that doesn't mean they have to.

Technically, Aviendha's future didn't show anything to be likely or unlikely
It gives clues though. For example, the light won, despite the fact that west+south and north+east has not been united, so that either means that that's not truly what the Answer meant, my definition of "one" is wrong, or it did indeed mean that the unification was only required in order to let Rand survive rather then to ensure victory. That makes it pretty important.

She didn't see Mat, and with Mat's survival uncertain at Ghenjei, that might make all the difference.
This kinda ties in with the above, if we assume we don't see Mat because he was dead in that future, then either he's only needed to ensure Rand survives, or he's not actually needed because it means something else.

I think Tenobia and Bashere will die before the truce, probably near the beginning of AMOL during the Battle of Caemlyn or at Tarwin's Gap. Faile and Perrin get the Broken Crown, Moiraine and Thom get the Sun Throne
Is that speculation or is there evidence for it I've missed? It could happen, even if Elayne won't be happy about the Cairhien part, but it's possible.

If Lan and Nynaeve don't die, they will be another shared crown, further buttressing this issue that is so important to you and which you think fulfills this prophecy. (It doesn't.)
They could be, but not being a native, I'm not sure what "buttressing" means. A google search seem to indicate it means "support", but that doesn't fit with the context.

I don't think a temporary truce is in the works at all because of the marriage issue. Are we supposed to believe that Mat and Tuon just go their separate ways? I don't buy it...and in order for those two to live together, then the damane issue has to be solved. If that issue is going to be solved, then there has to be some sort of compromise. The Empire is that compromise. And because Tuon is not Hawkwing, it's not a bad compromise at all.
That is a good point, especially considering what we know of the planned outriggers. I still think the chance that Tuon would agree to that is very unlikely, however...We are dealing with a VERY powerful ta'veren here, and even though she managed to resist that effect when meeting with Rand, it's quite possible she won't be able to do the same when dealing with her husband.
That does actually make a lot of sense, the only complaint I can remember about the Seanchan rule during the series is the way they treat channelers, everyone else seems happy there, so if Mat can ta'veren her into changing that, the two can indeed truly become one.


I'm saying that they did specify which two entities they were referring to. I'm not saying that the gender symbolism isn't going to be all up in it, or that it won't extend to Logain and Egwene. I'm just saying, the truce with the Seanchan is necessary in order for Rand to win the Last Battle. There are a number of things that make that clear, including the importance of Mat's marriage to Tuon, and the fact that the Seanchan were introduced in book two and foreshadowed in book one.
A truce yes, but full-out becoming one? Aviendhas future proved that the light can win without having everyone submit to the Seanchan.

In the deceptive form you suggest, then it would be impossible for the questioner to figure out what they meant by it. There's no indication that they use this level of deception in their answers, and there's definitely no indication that RJ would use this level of deception with his readers. The answer is a riddle. The geography references are a clue.
Yeah, he couldn't figure it out in advance, but in hindsight, they easily could. That sounds like Mats answers to me, he couldn't figure out what marrying the daughter of the nine moons meant until he realized who and what that was, he couldn't know what giving up half the light of the world meant in advance (and that's not even accurate IMO, the world still has all its light, and he can still see it all. We still don't truly know (AFAIK?) when he died and lived again, Rhuidean or Caemlyn.
The answers have to be true, but I don't remember anyone claiming they have to be useful or specific if the question leaves wiggleroom.

Read his last chapter in ACOS and tell me again he's not in charge of anything except the Band.
Allright, I will when I get home in a few hours:)
Leaving the rest of that until then.

It doesn't mean that he writes blatantly deceptive prophecies.
Hasn't there been other cases where we all thought a prophecy meant something, but it turned out to be misinterpreted? I actually can't come up with any good examples, but I haven't been studying it for nearly as long or as hard as you. If not, good point, even if I'm not sure I'd consider this as a prophecy rather then just a true answer, just like the ones that you can get from aes sedai, just watch out so that the truth they're telling you is the truth you think it is.

Presumably, Mat took control of the armies somewhere in the meantime
The Band would follow, and so would likely Perrin with his army and the Aiel. Maybe even Elayne with Cairhien and Andor, she recently admitted he has a good eye for tactics or something similar. However, would Tear and king Darlin? The Hall with their army that Egwene gave them the authority over? The Borderlanders?
They have not seen Mats skill. It may happen, but would require pretty large scale ta'veren-ing.

I agree about what will happen to Rand, but doesn't Nicolas foretelling say that Rand is dead, yet alive, while the land is still divided? Hence he'd probably play a part, even if the world may change in other ways while he's gone.

TL;DR: I think you could be right after taking Mats ta'veren-ness into account, but...I'm not so sure it's the only way it could be fulfilled.

Now, split it up again (this bit is speculation on my part, obviously):

'How can I win the Last Battle?'
'The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one.'

'How can I survive the Last Battle?'
'The two must be as one. To live, you must die.'

The former now suggests that the current political division of Randland is (more or less) what should be the end state).
The latter suggests that Rand and LTT should integrate (as they've done) and die (which they haven't managed yet, despite good attempts).
I don't know about that though...I see where you're coming from, but it seems like one question with one answer to me. He's not asking for a way to win the last battle and a way to survive past it, he's asking for a way to make both possible at the same time. It is however unclear how much, if anything, of the answer is required to just win, it could be that without any uniting at all he could still manage to reseal the DO, but he'd permanently die doing it...or, it could be that the whole world (as in the main world that we actually get to visit, I'm excluding Shara, mainland Seanchan etc) has to be united and the Dragon has to die in order to win at all.
Personally, I think Aviendhas future showed a scenario where the "two become one" was not fulfilled, especially considering that it mentioned that Tuon didn't reign for long, while we know the outriggers were supposed to have Mat and Tuon reclaiming mainland Seanchan in 20(?) years, indicating "something" went wrong already before the Aeil went to war.

Lupusdeusest
09-17-2011, 11:42 PM
What of Fortuona's (now accepted) offer to Beslan? Would the other rulers respond similarly to him were they offered the same arrangement?

Terez
09-17-2011, 11:44 PM
What of Fortuona's (now accepted) offer to Beslan? Would the other rulers respond similarly to him were they offered the same arrangement?
I think that depends entirely on the circumstances.

GonzoTheGreat
09-18-2011, 05:32 AM
What of Fortuona's (now accepted) offer to Beslan? Would the other rulers respond similarly to him were they offered the same arrangement?I think that neither Rand nor Moridin would. Any others are not really relevant at this point, are they?

Landro
09-19-2011, 08:59 AM
As much as Elayne might want Cairhien, she's not the person with the best claim. Moraine has the best claim but she refused in NS because she wanted to search for the Dragon instead. Now that he's been found she might reconsider. Even if Moiraine declines the thrones, there's still Galad who also has a stronger claim than Elayne. Cairhien's rising sun and the Children's sunburst are somewhat similar so Elayne will have to learn some humility...... at last!!

I think "the two should be as one" might refer to Rand and Moridin.

Davian93
09-19-2011, 09:23 AM
Of Course, Elayne has been crowned and sits on the Sun Throne so its a bit of a fait accompli...unless of course she dies soon.

GonzoTheGreat
09-19-2011, 10:13 AM
Of Course, Elayne has been crowned and sits on the Sun Throne so its a bit of a fait accompli...
"Whatever can be done," Rand said softly, "can be undone."Though I do not really think that Rand would want Elayne to hang herself.

Terez
09-19-2011, 10:47 AM
There hasn't been a coronation yet.

Weiramon
09-19-2011, 02:19 PM
As much as Elayne might want Cairhien, she's not the person with the best claim. Moraine has the best claim but she refused in NS because she wanted to search for the Dragon instead. Now that he's been found she might reconsider.

Burn my soul, it would be no surprise to hear it ending badly, a Queen openly aknowledging she is Aes Sedai.

FelixPax
09-19-2011, 03:16 PM
Well, OBVIOUSLY it's Bela. How else could a simple horse survive so much, and get so much time in the spotlight?

Ha, ha! ;)

Whatever did happen to the al'Thor's Cow?



Is it? Tuon seemed to deal pretty well with the fact, justifying it with that even though she has the ability to learn, she chose not to, and it does make sense from their POV. Just because every human has the ability to become a murderer, that doesn't mean they have to.

The text of the series has never stated Tuon/Fortuona is a Learner. In fact, this claim has been the topic of healed discussions previously and up to today, at Theoryland forum.


My interpretation of Tuon/Fortuona's background is she is a Sparker, not a Learner. That's one reason she looks younger than her present chronological age. 'Childlike' in Graendal's judgment (ToM book).

Ever wonder how Tuon knew Furyk Karede arrived the Band of Red Hand in KoD Book? Or why Furyk Karede is even alive after repeated deadly assassination attempts on her life as a child? Tuon in some ways is eerily similar to Nynaeve al'Meara, each is a healer & both disliked Aes Sedai. Tuon & Nynaeve each possessed alternate cultural explanations for previous channeling, other than being Aes Sedai.

Ever wonder why Queen Eldrene alone destroyed Manetheren (aka Tuon's soul)? Or why Verin mentions very young girls channeling? Or why Moiraine mentions to 'need', as pushing a young woman to channel?

Selucia unlike Fortuona, knows Fortuona is at risk from being bonded by an a'dam. Selucia knows Fortuona isn't being totally honest with herself, as of CoT,Chapter 29. Likewise Selucia knows Fortuona can be unwise & foolish too. Selucia has sought to protect Fortuona from her own idiotic errors.


... All of the marath'damane must be leashed.

...

"You should not allow word of this to spread," Selucia said....


Towers of Midnight, Chapter 47 "A Teaching Chamber" -- Fortuona point of view; with Truthspeaker Selucia, King Beslan, Melitene, Suffa/Elaida, Furyk Karede, and General Galgan


Selucia knows that the Imperial House is, or has not been subject to the very same a'dam tests every other commoner Seanchan has. The collar of an a'dam is not placed around a High Blood's neck unless the Empress approved it. Nor do Blood's have a bracelet of an a'dam placed around their waist, unless the Empress approved it. Tuon had to seek approval for Sul'dam training from her mother, the Empress.




A truce yes, but full-out becoming one? Aviendhas future proved that the light can win without having everyone submit to the Seanchan.

The Shadow has Light too. :D


Absently, she studied the nearest lights in the blackness. She did not recognize any of them. They held absolutely still around her, shimmering stars frozen in clear black ice.


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 14 "Dreams and Nightmares" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view, in TAR

Even Moghedien has a grayish silvery light to herself in the TAR.

A handsome woman suddenly appeared beside a glass case with four carved legs out in the middle of the floor. She was no Taraboner, with her dark hair falling in waves to her shoulders, yet that was not what made Nynaeve gape. The woman’s dress seemed to be mist, sometimes silvery and opaque, sometimes gray and so thin as to show her limbs and body clearly. From wherever she had dreamed herself here, she assuredly had a vivid imagination to conceive that! Even the scandalous Domani dresses she had heard of surely could not equal this.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 52 "Need" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view; with Moghedien, and Birgitte in the background


I figured most HCFF's have forgotten these particular images, that's one reason I quoted them instead of Shaidar Haran's blackish light or the Bore being breached scenes.


Stars of Light can be dark.
Who kills Malidra? A Lightmaker with Stars for Eyes.


Flern snorted. "No harm? I've seen these creatures try to slit a sleeping man's throat. All for his trash. Bloody pests."

The other shadow looked at her, and she caught sight of a grim face. Twinkling eyes. Like stars. The man signed, rising. "Next time we bury the trash." He retreated back toward the light.


Towers of Midnight, Chapter "Near Avendesora" -- Aviendha point of view & Malidra point of view, set in the distant future



The Band would follow, and so would likely Perrin with his army and the Aiel. Maybe even Elayne with Cairhien and Andor, she recently admitted he has a good eye for tactics or something similar. However, would Tear and king Darlin? The Hall with their army that Egwene gave them the authority over? The Borderlanders?
They have not seen Mats skill. It may happen, but would require pretty large scale ta'veren-ing.


Take a look at who has given promises to whom.

Darlin gave one to Rand al'Thor
Illian Council of Nine gave one to Rand al'Thor
Four Aiel Clan in Illian gave one to Rand al'Thor to wait on AND follow the orders of Matrim Cauthon
Four Borderland Rulers seem to have given one to Rand al'Thor, in ToM book.
Berelain gave one to Rand al'Thor, to serve.
Queen Alliandre gave one to Perrin & to Rand al'Thor.

Matrim Cauthon told once Elayne, he gave a promise to protect her to Rand al'Thor.
Matrim Cauthon has provided protection to Sea Folk Windfinders, Kinswomen, three Aes Sedai, two Sul'dam and more.


All in all, there's likely to be a good deal women of SLAPPING Matrim Cauthon, when he meets his 'promises' in AMoL book. Truthspeaker Selucia shall have it coming for Cauthon.


It is however unclear how much, if anything, of the answer is required to just win, it could be that without any uniting at all he could still manage to reseal the DO, but he'd permanently die doing it...or, it could be that the whole world (as in the main world that we actually get to visit, I'm excluding Shara, mainland Seanchan etc) has to be united and the Dragon has to die in order to win at all.

Excluding Shara, Seanchan from analysis is an error of judgment IMHO. As for why, remember this map?

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wheeloftime/Graphics/map-world.jpg


What of Fortuona's (now accepted) offer to Beslan? Would the other rulers respond similarly to him were they offered the same arrangement?

No. They each have given Oaths or Promises to other individuals.

Beslan previously gave no Oath nor Promise to Rand al'Thor. However Beslan has previously given agreement to wait on Rand, to Mat Cauthon in Ebou Dar (WH book).


A Theory

My prediction is that Beslan can and will wait on Matrim Cauthon, to clear up the mess of rose thorns that is Mat's personal relationships to both Elayne and Fortuona.

Elayne can easily lie about who is the father of her unborn children, to Fortuona. Elayne can easily claim Matrim Cauthon is her betrothal. The same betrothal Matrim Cauthon once claimed to have, to Queen Tylin in Ebou Dar. Question is did Tuon ever find out, or not?


He had seen fishmongers in the city selling peculiar creatures called squid and octopus—Ebou Dari actually ate the things!—but they had nothing on Tylin. The woman possessed ten hands. He thrashed about, vainly trying to fend her off, and she laughed softly. Between kisses, he breathlessly protested that someone might walk in, and she just chuckled. He babbled his respect for her crown, and she chortled. He claimed betrothal to a girl back home who held his heart in her hands. She really laughed at that.


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 28 "Bread and Cheese" -- Matrim Cauthon point of view; with Tylin dominating him in bed...

If Tuon heard of Tylin's Pink Ribbons gift to Mat, who's to know what Tylin said?


Conclusion:

In a nutshell, Fortuona nor Selucia is likely going to be happy to learn Matrim Cauthon is betrothal to wed Elayne, Aviendha and Min--in AMoL book. Let the slapping begin.

The Eelfinn & Aelfinn will get the last laugh, on Matrim Cauthon. They're set-up him up to be married off, to a group of forceful young women!

Tree Brother
09-21-2011, 03:44 PM
Ha, ha! ;)
My interpretation of Tuon/Fortuona's background is she is a Sparker, not a Learner. That's one reason she looks younger than her present chronological age. 'Childlike' in Graendal's judgment (ToM book).


I don't think so. If Tuon had channeled, then an experienced sul'dam linked to a damane would notice.

Once a sul'dam (or sparker) channels, she both slows, and will be marked as a marath'damane.

FelixPax
09-21-2011, 07:33 PM
I don't think so. If Tuon had channeled, then an experienced sul'dam linked to a damane would notice.

False. Elayne and Nynaeve lived in Falme for a long time, yet no experienced Sul'dam noticed them nor found them. (TGH book.) Alwhin, Seta, Bethamin, Renna each lived in Falme, yet none of them noticed Elayne nor Nynaeve channeling abilities.

Sul'dam cannot even look at the Daughter of Nine Moons face. Tuon's status & authority is far too high in the sky, as a High Blood. Sul'dam are not of the Blood, whether High or Low Blood.


Seanchan servants can look at the face of their master, only if that individual allows it. If servants disobey, they are punished. Suroth's POV makes that clear (KoD, Prologue). Tuon was the highest ranking Seanchan person in Westlands, until her marriage to Matrim Cauthon. Tuon, as Fortuona, is the master of the Seanchan Empire presently.

Tuon chooses who is allowed to look at her face. Suroth no longer is allowed to, look. Only absolute exceptions to this rule always, are Tuon's marriage partner and Tuon's Truthspeaker currently. Granted Tuon did make a promise to Furyk Karede:

You have protected my life, so you must take Emela to watch over you in turn, she said. She can’t really protect you, of course; she’s only a doll. But keep her to remind you that I will always hear if you speak my name. If I’m still alive, of course.


Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 4 "The Tale of a Doll" -- Furyk Karede point of view; his memories

Whether called Tuon or Fortuona, she will never break her word, her promises--according to Egeanin.



Once a sul'dam (or sparker) channels, she both slows, and will be marked as a marath'damane.

Tuon has been marked by channeling. Her childlike appearance is a direct outcome of channeling at an early age. Tuon has slowed.

Imperial House members of the High Blood, are not subject to the a'dam test at all. The only exception is if the Empress approved a testing, whether partial or full. Tuon only asked to test for the sul'dam, hence the Emperor okayed only a bracelet test. Yet Tuon never became a Sul'dam in terms of status. Do to so, would have meant a reduction in status & authority in Seanchan Empire for Tuon. Sul'dam are servants of the Empire, of the Blood, of the Empress.

Tuon absolutely loathed being called a 'lowly servant', in the story Matrim Cauthon told the Show Folk.


No, Tuon has a personal servant of her own. Selucia, a so'jhin:


so'jhin: The closest translation from the Old Tongue would be “a height among lowness,” though some translate it as meaning “both sky and valley” among several other possibilities. So'jhin is the term applied by the Seanchan to hereditary upper servants. They are da'covale, property, yet occupy positions of considerable authority and often power. Even the Blood step carefully around so'jhin of the Imperial family, and speak to so'jhin of the Empress herself as to equals. See also Blood, the; da'covale.


Knife of Dreams, Glossary


Of course, Selucia is not longer a so'jhin as of Towers of Midnight book. Selucia is a free woman, as Truthspeaker to the Empress.

Selucia can now lie to protect the Empress, yet the Empress cannot harm her. Tuon cannot have Selucia killed now. Why? Because she is the Empress's Truthspeaker AND Tuon's Voice. Imperial House customs are unique, from broader Seanchan society.

Tree Brother
09-22-2011, 12:17 PM
False. Elayne and Nynaeve lived in Falme for a long time, yet no experienced Sul'dam noticed them nor found them. (TGH book.) Alwhin, Seta, Bethamin, Renna each lived in Falme, yet none of them noticed Elayne nor Nynaeve channeling abilities.


None of them noticed, because Nynaeve and Elayne went to great lengths to avoid Sul'dam and Damane.


Sul'dam cannot even look at the Daughter of Nine Moons face. Tuon's status & authority is far too high in the sky, as a High Blood. Sul'dam are not of the Blood, whether High or Low Blood.


It has been made very clear throughout the books, that sensing chanellers has nothing to do with the eyes.

I do not have tEotW handy, but recall the scene where Moiraine notices Nynaeve along the river, whereas Lan does not. She is not looking at her, but explains that the reason she knew Nynaeve was there was because she could sense a channeller near her.

The ability to sense chanellers is a function of how close they are to you, and maybe other variables.

FelixPax
09-22-2011, 11:27 PM
None of them noticed, because Nynaeve and Elayne went to great lengths to avoid Sul'dam and Damane.

Not exactly accurate, as Elayne did channel to steal an Apple from a vendor at Falme. Sul'dam missed an Apple being stolen.


Tangent: Apples, Perception and Lies at just the Right Time--Thom style. (indented text only)


Just like Fortuona will miss a metaphor of it, in a parallel future event. Cunning women pushing Matrim Cauthon to wed them or break a promise to protect them!


Elayne sure does like to steal victory from the jaws of defeat. However, that future wedding scene most likely deals with an utterly huge number set of story metaphors cooked up from NS to KoD books: Apples; Stealing; Seduction; Sin; Tree(s); Knowledge; Victory; Courage; Hangmen's Block; Cliffs; Promises; Lies; Trust; Secrets; Freedom; Betrothal; Barmaids; Blades; Justice; Flags and Banners (identity, representatives, followers, loyalty); Domination and Subjection; Violence; Knots and Briars; Dancing; Alcohol; Nudity; Touching; Berries; Roses; Badgers (urban slang can be very dirty!); Hole(s) (underground, earth; pit); Silver; Shovel (e.g. furrow, plow, dig, excavate, spade, Dragon's shovel); Shove (push, pull, ta'veren); Horn(s); Chairs and Stools; Kitchen(s); Bowing and Kneeling; Hand(s); Wall(s); Bucket(s) and Cup(s); Scandalous; (Plural) Marriage; Wheel of Life (Bhavacakra), Wheel of Fortune (Rota Fortunae); Memory; Fate; Becoming; Not a Lord, an Emperor (First among Equals); Good Jokes on the Joker. ;)


Among the Apple themed mythologies or tales twisted and disguised by Robert Jordan for Wheel of Time purposes in particular are: 1. Atalanta & Hippomenes (Greek Myth: running versus cunning, and marriage); 2. Genesis's Apple with Adam & Eve (Sin, Serpent et al.); 3. the Red Apple(s) of the Ottoman Empire (Constantinople was a Golden Apple; and Tuon's Golden Apple is Tar Valon)..


In WoT terms 'The Nine Horse Hitch' is not only a Lugard Inn, but its metaphorically speaking Matrim Cauthon's jades too:

He’s (Mat) so wrapped up in taking you (Elayne) to Caemlyn, you could not budge him from it with a prybar and a team of horses.”

“But if he means to keep an eye on me until I reach Caemlyn,” Elayne told her, “he’ll have no choice but to go. It is perfect.”


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 39 "Possibilties" -- Egwene point of view; Nynaeve speaking with Elayne present


His women, his lovers, his knives.



In the process of missing the collective betrothal lie by the three apples (of Aviendha, Min, Elayne), Fortuona is going to lose face. Why?

On Fortuona's orders the Seanchan Empire is going to steal and transform Aes Sedai, Kin, Sea Folk, Aiel, sul'dam to damane. On Fortuona's orders servants & warders are going to be made da'covale. On Fortuona's order the destruction and thieving of Tar Valon is going to occur. Yet who will almost all these individuals claim to be following, in the end? Matrim Cauthon. In essence Fortuona's orders will violate the her husband's instructions to his followers. (Nobles, Sea Folk, Aiel, Kin/Merchants, Rulers, Aes Sedai, Ogiers, the Folk, Servants, and Mothers will each agree they were 'following' instructions!) Fortuona's actions will break Treaty she previously agreed to. Fortuona will lose face, because she will have broken her "word" for the first time ever. :eek:

How can Mat Cauthon save Fortuona's face, honor? And protect her neck from an a'dam collar? How? By freeing damane. By having a marriage ceremony. By agreeing to make Matrim Cauthon first among equals to rule.


End Tangent.


It has been made very clear throughout the books, that sensing chanellers has nothing to do with the eyes.

True, however most channelers seem to have a mental block to notice weaves, whether male or female. This 'block' for practical purposes, is a limitation of perception.

Caire din Gelyn Running Wave does not have this perception 'block', nor does Moiraine, Nesune. However, quite a few Aes Sedai do have this preception 'block' has is show when Kandori Nesune Bihara notices Egwene behind Rand's Mirror of Mists weave in Cairhien. Galina and Coiren did not notice Egwene at all (LoC, Ch.27). Nynaeve al'Meara also has this perception block, especially if she's distracted (e.g. Tuon/Fortuona in TGS Book).

(Theory) However Fortuona does not seems to have this perception block at all, based upon her physical reactions and atypical curiousity upon entering the city of Jurador (Mat POV). Jurador is a town of full salt merchants, who are most likely tied to Nynaeve al'Meara & Reanna plan to spring the Kin out of Seanchan controlled lands. The Kin are the true political rulers in Jurador. Lady Aethelaine oath the Seanchan Empire, allows the Kin to use Jurador as a relative safe stop along a major underground channeler smuggling route.

Additionally if Fortuona acts to capture Kinswomen in Jurador as damane, she will do the very thing Semirhage's rumors spoke of: "Stealing from Merchants".

The Seeker grimaced, a slight twisting of his mouth, but he seemed to realize he had gotten as much commitment as Karede would make. He nodded once. “Whatever you choose to do, you should know this. You may wonder how the girl extorted anything from these merchants. It seems two or three soldiers always accompanied her. The description of their armor was also very precise.” He half stretched out a hand as though to touch Karede’s robe, but wisely let it fall back to his side. “Most people call that black. You understand me? Whatever you choose to do, do not delay.” Mor raised his cup. “Your health, Banner-General. Furyk. Your health, and the health of the Empire.”


Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 4 "The Tale of a Doll" -- Banner General Furyk point of view


Tuon's own Seekers were not among the known, yet they must be hunting twice as hard as any others. Unless they had been taken into her confidence. But in seventeen days, all that had been uncovered was that ridiculous story of Tuon extorting jewelry from goldsmiths, and that was known to every common soldier. Perhaps....


Knife of Dreams, Prologue 'Embers Falling on Dry Grass' -- Suroth point of view; her thoughts


Fortuona also immediately knew Nynaeve was a channeler, in TGS Book, when they met. The multiple sul'dam were not able to even that, in Falme with Elayne & Nynaeve walking around town.


The Seanchan Empire rely on forkroot greatly to capture channelers, because most sul'dam have a 'perception' block.
The Seanchan Empire investigations into Tylin's death did not even figure out that neither saidar or saidin was used to killed Tylin in the Palace. :rolleyes: Suroth just conveniently blames Aes Sedai for Tylin's death (KoD, Prologue). :rolleyes: Wonder what General Galgan's sul'dam & (shaido aiel) damane learned of Tylin's death? At least the Shaido Aiel Wise Ones seem to typically lack these perception blocks (See Dumai Wells fighting, in LoC book).
Even the Seanchan Empire sul'dam who have the ability to identify channelers, lack the backbone to speak up directly. Liandrin has been walking Seanchan channelers for a long time now, with a saidar shield placed upon her. Yet Liandrin has not even been collared! (KoD, Prologue)


The ability to sense chanellers is a function of how close they are to you, and maybe other variables.

Yes, I agree.





Considering this Thread is about "What the Aelfinn Said": one possibility of many.


"How can I win the Last Battle and survive?"

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."


One alternative interpretation of an Aelfinn's answer to Rand al'Thor, could revolve about Women and Marriage.

The North (Fortuona) and the east (Aviendha) must be as one. The West (Min) and the South (Elayne) must be as one. The two (North and East, plus West and South) must be as one (Married, become 'sister-wives').



East = Aviendha, native to Three-Folds Land in the east.
South = Elayne, native southlander of Andor
West = Min, native of the far west in the Mountains of Mist
North = Tuon, native of the Imperial House of Seanchan in Seandor.
One = marriage, an union of individuals, sister-wives.


Only joined together can four woman win the Last Battle, for the side of the Light.


King Beslan will be on scene then this occur (theory). King Beslan live up to two of his titles:


Guardian of the Four Winds,
Guardian of the Sea of Storms


The Four Winds could mean ta'verens (men) or the above four future sister-wives (women). While the Sea of Storm could be, the Dragon's soul, the Eye of the Storm, Valan Luca.

Janduin
09-25-2011, 09:07 PM
Ok, I only ended up reading about 3/4 of the first page on this, but I didn't see one obvious (to me) interpretation of the 'Finn prophecy:

'The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one.'

While it is generally accepted that the North-East and West-South refer to nations in Randland, it also seems to be agreed that 'The two must be as one' refers to an alliance between the 'superpower nations' of Randland. I simply don't agree with this.

The question Rand asked is: 'How do I win the Last Battle and survive?'. My personal interpretation of this, is that the 'Finns told Rand, in a nutshell, that his two 'halves', himself and LTT, must be 'as one' for him to win/survive the Last Battle.

I believe this is backed up by Rand, post-merger, saying something like 'there will be no more sneaking around, just confrontation' in ToM. Darkfriends can no longer hide from Rand, the Trolloc armies are massing and coming south of the Blight, the Last Battle is here. Even the Wolves say so.

In a very real sense, I think the 'Finns were telling Rand he could NOT win, unless he accepted that he is the Dragon in full and that he IS LTT reborn, not just a man with LTT inside his head. Now that this has happened, I think we are set and ready to go for the Last Battle and victory for the Light, according to the 'Finn prophecy.

GonzoTheGreat
09-26-2011, 05:27 AM
Ok, I only ended up reading about 3/4 of the first page on this, but I didn't see one obvious (to me) interpretation of the 'Finn prophecy:Read and find out. Specifically, read post #11 of this thread (which happens to have been written by me).

Apart from that detail, you're quite brilliant, of course. :D

Janduin
09-26-2011, 05:44 PM
Read and find out. Specifically, read post #11 of this thread (which happens to have been written by me).

Apart from that detail, you're quite brilliant, of course. :D

From such a great calibre of theorisers as yourself, how could I NOT be brilliant? ;)