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WinespringBrother
09-16-2011, 09:14 AM
First, pop over here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5669)for the main thread, to see our list of upcoming characters.

I’d like discussions to link back to any existing theories, threads and ideas, but let’s try and integrate them into new theories, thoughts and ideas okay? This is less to do with whether we “like” characters – we are Theorylanders, and we are not vapid. If you want to be a Theorylander, practice thinking critically and objectively. Don’t worry, we’ll help!

This week, we're discussing Alviarin Freidhen.

Alviarin is a rare breed of the current crop of 3rd Age Darkfriends - discreet (unlike Liandrin), highly successful (unlike Elza), still alive (unlike most Forsaken) and deserving of promotion. She was head of the top secret Black Ajah since being raised as a very young Aes Sedai, barely raised from the Accepted, and kept them in the shadows. She cleanly disposed of Siuan by engineering an illegal coup in the Hall of the Tower, then manipulated and kept Elaida under her thumb, at least until her hubris led her to leaving Elaida to her own devices long enough to regrow her backbone, though even that did not in and of itself cause too many problems. She (presumably) rallied the Black Ajah to flee the White Tower after the Seanchan attack that preceded the reunification, and surely has something up her sleeve for Tarmon Gai'don.

But what is she plotting, and where? Will she show up somewhere at the head of a Dreadlord army, or a Shadowspawn army, or both? Will she be given a new title and/or abilities from the Dark One? I propose "Shadow Lord" in the Old Tongue, Shadar Shan.

Rand al'Fain
09-16-2011, 10:59 AM
Well, unlike any of the super gals, she actually has a sense of danger and knows when something is about to go down, for better or for worse. Definitly one of the few competant villains in the series. Now, she's either following one of the Forsaken's plans, or hatching one of her own. Maybe taking part in the attack on Caemlyn. Considering she has a good number of channler darkfriends and Tar Valon isn't too far, her and her fellow Black Ajah might be bringing in some of the Trollocs, or taking part in the attack in other ways.

GonzoTheGreat
09-16-2011, 11:34 AM
Or both. Letting a couple of hundred Trollocs roam around the streets of Tar Valon could distract the AS quite from coming to the aid of Caemlyn, I expect.

the_collective
09-16-2011, 11:59 AM
She cleanly disposed of Siuan by engineering an illegal coup in the Hall of the Tower, then manipulated and kept Elaida under her thumb, at least until her hubris led her to leaving Elaida to her own devices long enough to regrow her backbone, though even that did not in and of itself cause too many problems.

But what is she plotting, and where?

Correct me if I'm wrong (as if you need an invitation), but I was under the impression that Alviarin only loosed (lost?) her grip on Elaida/the Hall in the Tower because Mesaana had her off doing busy-work. It seemed to me that any 'incompetence' on her part that you're referencing here was actually Mesaana's incompetence; she was hoping to use Alviarin as a proxy/scapegoat for the busy-work she didn't feel she needed to dedicate personal time to.

I think also you're under-stating Alviarin's extraordinary ability to avoid the Shadows' penchant for self-sabotage and general incompetency. She's the 3rd Age's equivalent of Elan Morin Tedronai (discounting Taim, of course, who may yet turn out to be Elan Morin himself) - a logical philosopher that determined the ultimate conclusion that the Dark One must eventually prevail - the difference between them is one of inherent power scale. That is, I'd argue that if the Chosen weren't already in place as far as "seeds" go (if you're familiar with tournament terminology), Alviarin could have had the place at the Dark One's right hand that Ishamael now enjoys.

She had the unfortunate fate of being born in the 3rd Age, though, and all of the Dark One's best-buddy slots have been taken (and the DO can't bring himself to trust anyone he hasn't known for a few years; he's gotten burned quite a bit in the past millennia). Point being: Alviarin is restricted in ways that didn't even exist during the War of Power. She's a web-weaving Atha'an Shadar (called "Chosen" during the War of Power, then later "Dreadlords" during the Trolloc Wars and after) that has a whole panel of bosses that she must accede to, rather than act with impugnity as was done by every web-weaving Atha'an Shadar during the War of Power.

WinespringBrother
09-16-2011, 12:19 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong (as if you need an invitation), but I was under the impression that Alviarin only loosed (lost?) her grip on Elaida/the Hall in the Tower because Mesaana had her off doing busy-work. It seemed to me that any 'incompetence' on her part that you're referencing here was actually Mesaana's incompetence; she was hoping to use Alviarin as a proxy/scapegoat for the busy-work she didn't feel she needed to dedicate personal time to.

I think also you're under-stating Alviarin's extraordinary ability to avoid the Shadows' penchant for self-sabotage and general incompetency. She's the 3rd Age's equivalent of Elan Morin Tedronai (discounting Taim, of course, who may yet turn out to be Elan Morin himself) - a logical philosopher that determined the ultimate conclusion that the Dark One must eventually prevail - the difference between them is one of inherent power scale. That is, I'd argue that if the Chosen weren't already in place as far as "seeds" go (if you're familiar with tournament terminology), Alviarin could have had the place at the Dark One's right hand that Ishamael now enjoys.

She had the unfortunate fate of being born in the 3rd Age, though, and all of the Dark One's best-buddy slots have been taken (and the DO can't bring himself to trust anyone he hasn't known for a few years; he's gotten burned quite a bit in the past millennia). Point being: Alviarin is restricted in ways that didn't even exist during the War of Power. She's a web-weaving Atha'an Shadar (called "Chosen" during the War of Power, then later "Dreadlords" during the Trolloc Wars and after) that has a whole panel of bosses that she must accede to, rather than act with impugnity as was done by every web-weaving Atha'an Shadar during the War of Power.

From the below 3 quotes, we know that Alviarin went on at least 2 unsanctioned trips during her sojourn (though Traveling makes the trips themselves short, who knows how long Alviarin dallied, thus delaying her return and leading to her dismissal as Keeper? Also, with Traveling, she could have returned to the Tower to keep tabs on her Servant Elaida, and avoided the whole situation. She even realized the hazards of staying away so long, but didn't take any steps to mitigate them, thinking that she falsely had everything under control.


Crossroads of Twilight CHAPTER: 21 - A Mark
Perhaps, she thought as she climbed, she could probe Mesaana about that impossible flare in the Power, so long as she was . . . delicate. The Chosen would think she was hiding something if she never mentioned it. Every woman who could channel in the whole world had to be wondering what had happened. She would just have to be careful not to let slip anything that suggested that she had actually visited the site. Long after the flare vanished, of course - she was not stupid enough to simply stroll into that! - but Mesaana seemed to think Alviarin should carry out her chores without taking a moment for herself. Could the woman really believe that she had no affairs of her own to see to? It was best to behave as if she did have none. For the moment it was, at least.

Crossroads of Twilight CHAPTER: 21 - A Mark
Irritably, Alviarin channeled to force the dust out of the air, slamming it down so hard that the stone floor should have shaken. She would not have to go through this every time if she simply swept all the dust into a corner rather than leaving it spread out. No one else had come this far into the Library basements in years; no one would notice the room was clean. But someone was always doing what no one ever did. She often did so herself, and she did not intend to be caught through a foolish mistake. Still, she grumbled under her breath as she channeled the reddish mud from her shoes and the hem of her skirts and cloak. It seemed unlikely that anyone would recognize it as coming from Tremalking, the largest of the Sea Folk islands, but someone might wonder where she had been to get muddy. The Tower grounds would be buried in snow except where they had been shoveled clear and the dirt frozen hard. Still muttering to herself, she channeled again to muffle the squeal of rusted hinges as she pushed open the rough wooden door. There was a way to make a weave and hide it, so she would not have to soften that creak every time - she was certain there was - but Mesaana refused to teach it to her.

Crossroads of Twilight CHAPTER: 21 - A Mark
Once she reached the top of the first ramp leading upward, she no longer bothered hiding her traces. There was not nearly so much dust here, and that marked by the wheels of handcarts and scuffs from shoes; another set of faint footprints would never be noticed. She still walked quickly, though. Usually, the thought of living forever brightened her, the thought of eventually wielding power through Mesaana as she now did through Elaida. Well, almost the same; expecting to bring Mesaana to Elaida's state of compliance was too ambitious, but she could still tie strings to the woman that would assure her own rise. Today, her mind kept returning to the fact that she had been out of the Tower for almost a month. Mesaana would not have bothered to keep Elaida under control during her absence, though the Chosen would surely lay the fault at Alviarin's feet if anything had gone amiss. Of course, Elaida was properly cowed after the last time. The woman had begged for release from taking private penances from the Mistress of Novices. Of course she was too cowed to have stepped out of line. Of course. Alviarin pushed Elaida firmly to the back of her head, but she did not slow her steps.

I would hardly say that I was understating Alviarin's skills, rather I compared her favorably to even the Chosen. But she is no Ishamael, not by a long shot. Firstly, she is nowhere near as strong or skilled in the One Power, and secondly, she still has her own petty and somewhat selfish aspirations, unlike Elan who only cares to advance the Dark One's goals. She isn't even a Forsaken-class channeler, so she would have probably been a dreadlord, even in the 2nd Age. She is only exceptional because she is from the 3rd Age. But I don't think that takes anything away from her, because of all she has accomplished given her (relative) handicaps of youth/relative inexperience (i.e. she isn't a centuries old yet middle-aged channeler, lack of strength, need for discretion.

Enigma
09-16-2011, 01:45 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong (as if you need an invitation), but I was under the impression that Alviarin only loosed (lost?) her grip on Elaida/the Hall in the Tower because Mesaana had her off doing busy-work. It seemed to me that any 'incompetence' on her part that you're referencing here was actually Mesaana's incompetence; she was hoping to use Alviarin as a proxy/scapegoat for the busy-work she didn't feel she needed to dedicate personal time to.

Having to carry out jobs for Mesaana didn't help but I was under the impression that part of the problem arrose due to Alviarin herself. She pushed Elaida too hard, forcing her to take penence from the Mistress of Novices. I seem to recall Mesaana even warned her about her treatment of Elaida.

The trouble with her approach was that she made it vital that she was there to dominate Elaida 24/7. As soon as she was out of the Tower for any lenght of time Elaida rebelled.

Were her approach a bit more subtle Elaida may not have reacted so strongly.

Zombie Sammael
09-16-2011, 01:50 PM
I believe there are three major questions, or areas of interest, surrounding Alviarhin. They can be divided to some extent into past, present, and future.

1. Her past - we know Alviarhin joined the Black at a very young age for an AS, but she was not a Darkfriend when she came to the Tower. We know little else about her; not even where she's from, which we know for virtually every major character. We don't know how old she is, or when she was raised, or what her real motivation for joining the Shadow. Did she, as her Ajah hints, join the Shadow for similar reasons to Elan Morin Tedronai, or is something else behind her allegiance? Knowing her age and where she's from could allow us to glean a significant deal about her motivations. A suspicious person might think that such information about an effective and dangerous villain had been held back deliberately...

2. Her present; or more specifically, her mark. As far as we know for sure, Alviarin is the only Third Ager to have received a mark. We know it functions similarly to, but on a smaller scale than, the mark of the Forsaken; it prevents Trollocs, Myrddraal, and the like from attacking her, but does not give her the power to command them. Further, the mark was assigned by Shaidar Haran, who is the closest thing the Dark One has to an avatar within the Pattern. This might give us an important clue as to the third question about her...

3. Her future. What will Alviarin do next? She's fled the Tower, after being exposed, along with a significant number of other Darkfriend Aes Sedai. What's the plan? The Black Ajah has been crippled as a covert agency by Verin Mathwin and Egwene al'Vere, along with Elaida's hunters, but there may still be one or two black sisters left undercover, though this is unlikely, since Alviarin had no way herself of knowing who Verin had exposed. They're out in the open now. We strongly suspect, based on certain hints and the thoughts of the Darkfriend known as Bors, that new Dreadlords will be used by the Shadow. Will that now be the Black Ajah's role? And what about Shaidar Haran? Has the Superfade used his connection to Alviarin to take control of the remaining black sisters? If the plan is to make them Dreadlords, it certainly would appear SH has the power to grant control over Shadowspawn to them. Where would this leave Alviarin; on the cusp of true Chosenhood, or left as an inferior to the sisters she once commanded? Can the mark be upgraded?

Those are my thoughts. Alviarin is perhaps the second or third most effective villain in the series. I'm absolutely certain she'll crop up again in AMOL, and I can hardly wait to see what answers we get.

Enigma
09-16-2011, 02:03 PM
With the BA now out in the open it stands to reason that they will be used as support troups for Shadow spawn armies just like the Asha'man backed up Rand's armies. Alviarin does have one major skill set that would be useful for the Shadow. She is one of the few who knew who each BA member was. She knows their tallents and weaknesses. Other BA members might know some of their fellow members and their abilities without knowing they were darkfriends but I doubt if they know all of them.

It would make sense to have Alviarin acting as a field commander for the BA under the control/supervision of the forsaken. With Mesaana gone, none of the other forsaken have a personal gripe with her and she has served Ishamael/Moridin reasonably well and he is now running the show.

the_collective
09-16-2011, 04:04 PM
From the below 3 quotes, we know that Alviarin went on at least 2 unsanctioned trips during her sojourn (though Traveling makes the trips themselves short, who knows how long Alviarin dallied, thus delaying her return and leading to her dismissal as Keeper? Also, with Traveling, she could have returned to the Tower to keep tabs on her Servant Elaida, and avoided the whole situation. She even realized the hazards of staying away so long, but didn't take any steps to mitigate them, thinking that she falsely had everything under control.

I would hardly say that I was understating Alviarin's skills, rather I compared her favorably to even the Chosen. But she is no Ishamael, not by a long shot. Firstly, she is nowhere near as strong or skilled in the One Power, and secondly, she still has her own petty and somewhat selfish aspirations, unlike Elan who only cares to advance the Dark One's goals. She isn't even a Forsaken-class channeler, so she would have probably been a dreadlord, even in the 2nd Age. She is only exceptional because she is from the 3rd Age. But I don't think that takes anything away from her, because of all she has accomplished given her (relative) handicaps of youth/relative inexperience (i.e. she isn't a centuries old yet middle-aged channeler, lack of strength, need for discretion.

Thanks, WSB for the quotes. I haven't read CoT since around the time KoD came out, and you've handily put the lie to most of what I said.

Firstly, I was definitely wrong to compare Alviarin to Elan Morin. I was under the impression that Alviarin, being a White, thought it logical that the Great Lord would ultimately triumph, but in that series of quotes you gave, she makes it clear that she's in it for the immortality and the power she can wield by proxy (first using Elaida, then planning to use Mesaana). This, of course, makes her no different than any other Friend of the Dark; save Elan Morin.

Secondly, these quotes do make it clear that while Alviarin was certainly doing Mesaana's bidding, she took at least two opportunities to check into what happened during the Cleansing - visiting both the site near Shadar Logoth and Tremalking itself (she, of course, wouldn't have felt the Choedan Kal near Cairhien).

Now, she also mentions that she'd been out of the Tower for a month. But according to the WoT chronology (http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl1000.htm#book10), this Alviarin PoV scene took place a mere 7 days after the Cleansing event. Obviously both of these trips you've cited took place during this 7-day period, and we have the other 3 7-day weeks of this "month" out of the Tower unaccounted for (and I thought the weeks were 10-day weeks, so I'm not even sure what Alviarin meant by a "month" here in terms of day-count).

Presumably, she was sent out of the Tower by Mesaana in the first place to see to some task or series thereof, and when she'd been prepared to come back the Cleansing happened, so she got sidetracked looking around to find out what the hell had happened that day. I say this mainly because it's obvious Alviarin just got back from Tremalking, and I think it a safe assumption (though still just an assumption) that she was at the site of the Cleansing directly before that.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make in the last post is not as thoroughly debunked as it first appears. Alviarin left the Tower on business (presumably for Mesaana) and was gone for at least 3 weeks before being available to do anything else, and the first thing she did when she got that chance was to check up on the Cleansing event. I'm not trying to say her business for Mesaana was properly concluded as of the day of the Cleansing event; I am saying that it took at least 3 weeks to complete an assignment she didn't even know she had to take time out to do until Mesaana approached her. And - I'd like to add - this was done at the exclusion of her own plans, otherwise she'd not have bitched about Mesaana's duties taking up all of her time.

Zombie Sammael
09-16-2011, 04:44 PM
WOT weeks are ten days long, not seven as you state in your post - just a heads up, it's easy to miss/forget. :)

the_collective
09-16-2011, 05:11 PM
WOT weeks are ten days long, not seven as you state in your post - just a heads up, it's easy to miss/forget. :)

Thank you, ZS. I actually did know that 10-day weeks are supposed to have been used during the latter 3/4 of the series and from what I understand, the first several books used a 7-day week.

My confusion stems from 2 things:

1. I've never seen anything stating how many days are in a given Wot-month.

2. In the WoT chronology I'd cited, the dates given are in terms of our Gregorian calendar, in addition to the WoT month-names (I still have no idea where these month names came from, either, but this is beside the point). I naturally look at the Gregorian dates given on that chronology, as I don't really understand how the other works.

Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

By the way, come to think of it - it doesn't truly matter which is which. Knowing the difference will not change the point of my post in any way, really - just the semantics.

All the same, I am curious.

The Unreasoner
09-16-2011, 10:53 PM
It's interesting to note that Alviarin is one of the most effective darkfriends, and is-as darkfriends go-relatively unselfish. Perhaps only slightly more than Berelain or Lelaine, about equal to some High Lords of Tear.

Also, on the mark; what is it exactly? Does it need to be granted by the DO or SH directly? How does it compare to the marks that Fain is able to see? Perhaps the marks are the evil in men's hearts, and are similar to the Bore. Or even are the Bore, or a worldly incarnation of it. One not quite as strongly imminent as SG, but a Bore nonetheless. It may be that the mark also provides a medium for the DO to record information. Sort of like an optical disk. A Chosen's mark may be no different than Gode's, except that the Chosen's all contain explicit recognition of authority by the DO (it couldn't be a demand of obedience, as the marks predate Shadowspawn). Alviarin's mark may have just been 'written to', a sort of explicit 'hands off' message.

The Fain quote:
It was the most remarkable thing about Darkfriends. There should be nothing to single out a Darkfriend from anyone else, but of late he found he could tell one at a glance, even someone who had only thought of swearing to the Shadow, as if they had a sooty mark on their foreheads.

Enigma
09-17-2011, 08:15 AM
Rj commented on the mark during an interview. I believe that he was asked was it akin to the Chosen mark. He replied that it was more like the sort of tatoo and owner might put on a dog so that everyone will know who the dog belongs to.

Its interesting that Rand now has the same ability to pick out darkfriens that Fain has. Perhaps the two should sit down and compare notes. :)

The Unreasoner
09-17-2011, 07:29 PM
I like the tattoo analogy. My understanding would then be 'all darkfriends (and only darkfriends) have marks, and marks are the only place that a tattoo can be placed.'

I'm not sure Fain's ability is the same as Rand's though. I'm not even sure there is a consensus that Rand can sense DFs (I think he can, but some people seem to doubt it).

But I would say it's more like Min/Elaida and viewings/Foretellings. Same effect, but a different mechanism. Rand seems to look for the absence of something, or the failure to pass some test. And it is based in the eyes, or at least seems to be.

Fain looks for the presence of a mark/evil/selfishness, and it is found on the forehead. Also, there is no test involved: Weiramon could have avoided Rand's eyes forever, and only have been a 'probable' DF. But Fain could make the (presumably accurate) judgment instantly.

It is interesting. Rand's ability seems to allow DF redemption/atonement, and allows for free will, while Fain's is entirely clinical.

Weiramon
09-17-2011, 11:29 PM
I'm not sure Fain's ability is the same as Rand's though. I'm not even sure there is a consensus that Rand can sense DFs (I think he can, but some people seem to doubt it).

Aye, no surprise that some will squint when the Lord Dragon appears. The skies have been clouded for months, however now when the Lord Dragon appears, they break open, and ordinary sunlight appears stronger, nay, blinding, after such a prolonged absence.

Rand al'Fain
09-17-2011, 11:33 PM
Aye, no surprise that some will squint when the Lord Dragon appears. The skies have been clouded for months, however now when the Lord Dragon appears, they break open, and ordinary sunlight appears stronger, nay, blinding, after such a prolonged absence.

I heard he was giving away your estates to some Illianer commoners.

Zombie Sammael
09-18-2011, 09:38 AM
Its interesting that Rand now has the same ability to pick out darkfriens that Fain has. Perhaps the two should sit down and compare notes. :)

No, he doesn't. Fain can tell them on sight; for Rand it is merely confirmatory. We know from his comments to Mat about Hadnan Kadere in TSR that he can tell a lot about a person by looking into their eyes and has been able to for some time, but this ability does not amount to being able to see Dakrfriends on anything like the scale Fain does. Additionally, as evidenced by the same scene, it is not a new ability by any stretch of the imagination.

WinespringBrother
09-18-2011, 10:05 AM
Thank you, ZS. I actually did know that 10-day weeks are supposed to have been used during the latter 3/4 of the series and from what I understand, the first several books used a 7-day week.

My confusion stems from 2 things:

1. I've never seen anything stating how many days are in a given Wot-month.

2. In the WoT chronology I'd cited, the dates given are in terms of our Gregorian calendar, in addition to the WoT month-names (I still have no idea where these month names came from, either, but this is beside the point). I naturally look at the Gregorian dates given on that chronology, as I don't really understand how the other works.

Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

By the way, come to think of it - it doesn't truly matter which is which. Knowing the difference will not change the point of my post in any way, really - just the semantics.

All the same, I am curious.

The Calendar is addressed in the BWB:

The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Holidays and the Calendar
The Farede Calendar sets 10 days to the week, 28 days to the month, and 13 months to the year. The months are: Taisham, Jumara, Saban, Aine, Adar, Saven, Amadaine, Tammaz, Maigdhal, Choren, Shaldine, Nesan, and Danu.

Weiramon
09-18-2011, 04:19 PM
I heard he was giving away // estates to some Illianer commoners.

Pshaw! The Lord Dragon feigned to send away, bloodied, that oaf of a blacksmith - a childhood friend from his own flyspeck village - along with that trollop from Mayene. And now he is rewarded with the ancient lands of Manetheren, and the promise of a crown.

Where the Lord Dragon commands one to serve, so does Weiramon Saniago obey.

confused at birth
09-18-2011, 04:25 PM
that trollop from Mayene

that trollop has a blademaster boyfriend so smart people dont hate to loudly :p

Juan
09-18-2011, 06:15 PM
I think all of you guys are overrating Alviarin's effectiveness by a long shot, but that's just me.

confused at birth
09-18-2011, 06:35 PM
I think all of you guys are overrating Alviarin's effectiveness by a long shot, but that's just me.

that is because she has more fans than Egwene:D

GonzoTheGreat
09-19-2011, 04:07 AM
that is because she has more fans than Egwene:DWhich of them would be a better girlfriend?

Enigma
09-19-2011, 08:30 AM
One would be impossible to live with the other would try to kill you as soon as it suited her.

On the issue of how effective Alviarin was I suppose it comes down to who much she shaped the BA. We know that Ishamael set it up on one of his temporary release breaks and Alvairin got promoted because Ishamael was not happy with her predecessors setting up a hunt and destroy mission for the Dragon Reborn.

If she was simply handed a well functioning orginisation one does not have to be brilliant to have the orginisation do brilliant things. A lot of the commands seem to have come from the forsaken such as splitting the tower, trying to kidnap Rand etc.

Even the coup against Siaun, which was probably the most delicate operation done by the BA was apparantly managed by Mesaana who took an active role as a Brown sister. All Alviarin had to do was not mess up. That makes her compitent but not exactly deadly. Compare this to Elaida who was handed an organisation and turned it into a disaster, (all be it with some help from the BA)

The Unreasoner
09-19-2011, 08:33 AM
One would be impossible to live with the other would try to kill you as soon as it suited her.
LMFAO at the failure to say which is which.

confused at birth
09-19-2011, 07:49 PM
which is which.

it would be impossible to live with Alviarin you would never know when she was going to be off on a secret mission for the shadow or when she would get back and that would piss anyone off after a while.

the biggest reason that Egwene would make bad girlfriend is that you would have to win her from Gawyn and that would make me feel bad about myself.

I mean if her taste is that bad what does it say about me?

Enigma
09-20-2011, 06:11 AM
Alviarin would sacrafice her spouse/boyfriend to get ahead with the Shadow without a second's hesitation. Aside from the Shadow her one love was the White Tower and I seem to recall her having certain pangs at the division she had been ordered to cause but she did it all the same.

On the other hand Egwene would sacrafice you for the greater good, she would feel bad about it and probably cry in private but she would still do it.

If you want loyalty you want Perrin or a female equivilent who will let the world burn to save you. Not very responsible but if your on the rescueing end its sort of comforting.