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Southpaw2012
09-21-2011, 12:07 AM
Every week I'm going to try and instead of doing character of the week, going to a do a life or death of the week for a character. And each character I choose for the weeks discussion will be about whether or not you think he or she will live or die in the last novel. It's been building for what will be 22 years in 2012. This is it.

This weeks to begin is Moiraine Damodred. We almost lost her once in Fires of Heaven until the dramatic rescue in the Tower of Ghenji but now she has a great role to play in AMoL. Will she live or will she die and why? Go

The Unreasoner
09-21-2011, 12:37 AM
I'm not sure how much use this thread/thread group will see. It seems that this same issue is generally covered by the CotW. If it generally is seeking only a yes/no, no one may care. And if it is looking to discuss the corresponding theories, only some theories will take a definite stance on the life/death issue. But all theories are welcome in the CotW threads.


In any case...
Moiraine:
Is going to live. I base this on my impression of the literary themes, the fact that there does not seem to be any need for her to die, and the lousy track record of the Grim Reaper vs Characters with 2+ POVs.

FelixPax
09-21-2011, 06:37 AM
Every week I'm going to try and instead of doing character of the week, going to a do a life or death of the week for a character. And each character I choose for the weeks discussion will be about whether or not you think he or she will live or die in the last novel. It's been building for what will be 22 years in 2012. This is it.

This weeks to begin is Moiraine Damodred. We almost lost her once in Fires of Heaven until the dramatic rescue in the Tower of Ghenji but now she has a great role to play in AMoL. Will she live or will she die and why? Go


Curious concept, and a bit difficult say for certainty in Moiraine's case. Although I did immediately think of a Nynaeve al'Meara POV from TEotW book, referring to Moiraine's and the Younglings' fates:


“The Light preserve you, woman,” she murmured, sagging back, “if you can’t stay awake one night.” She untied the reins and massaged her wrist as she stood. “You could have awakened in a Trolloc cookpot.”

The dead leaves rustled as she climbed to the lip of the hollow and peeped over. No more than a handful of ash trees stood between her and the river. Their fissured bark and bare branches made them seem dead. Beyond, the wide blue-green water flowed by. Empty. Empty of anything. Scattered clumps of evergreens, willows and firs, dotted the far bank, and there seemed to be fewer trees altogether than on her side. If Moiraine or any of the younglings were over there, they were well hidden. Of course, there was no reason they had to have crossed, or tried to cross, in sight of where she was. They could be anywhere ten miles upriver or down. If they’re alive at all, after last night.

Angry with herself for thinking of the possibility, she slid back down into the hollow. Not even Winternight, or the battle before Shadar Logoth, had prepared her for last night, for that thing, Mashadar. All that frantic galloping, wondering if anyone else was still alive, wondering when she was going to come face-to-face with a Fade, or Trollocs. She had heard Trollocs growling and shouting in the distance, and the quivering shrieks of Trolloc horns had chilled her deeper than the wind ever could, but aside from that first encounter in the ruins she saw Trollocs only once, and that once she was outside. Ten or so of them seemed to spring out of the ground not thirty spans in front of her, bounding toward her on the instant, howling and shouting, brandishing hooked catchpoles. Yet as she pulled her horse around, they fell silent, lifting muzzles to sniff at the air. She watched, too astonished to run, as they turned their backs and vanished into the night. And that had been the most frightening of all.

“They know the smell of who they want,” she told her horse, standing in the hollow, “and it is not me. The Aes Sedai is right, it seems, the Shepherd of the Night swallow her up.”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 21 "Listen to the Wind" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view.

One can take Moiraine's fate, of living or dying, either way--if one goes by Nynaeve's POV above.


In any case, before Moiraine ultimately dies... there is a prior scene hint, in TDR book, that Moiraine will ask a Blacksmith to forge a Knife. A marriage knife.

Note, I do not make a claim of when nor how Moiraine's flesh dies. ;o) Considering that Moiraine being or essence is Star like, her soul is basically immortal. Moiraine's constellation is 'the Traveler, with her staff out' (Mat POV). Flesh can die, but not her Soul. Rebirth will occur.



Tangent: Younglings:


In terms of Youngling(s), who has been called this?



Collectively, Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene by Nynaeve al'Vere.
Rand by Lord Dain Bornhald (Junior) in Baerlon. Dain makes a promise to meet Rand again. (TEotW, Ch.15)
Perrin and Egwene by Lord Captain Bornhald (Elder).
Village younglings converted by Raen's People or Tuatha'an, mentioned by Elyas (TEotW, Ch.25)
Master Kinch's younglings (with parallels of Valan Luca's phrases given too).
Rand by Ba'alzamon/Ishamael/Moridin (TEotW, Ch.33)
Mat, Perrin, Rand by Innkeeper Basel Gill in Caemlyn. Younglings as children, heading to Fal Dara in a Rand POV.
Matrim Cauthon by Rhuarc at the Stone in Tear (TDR, Ch.54)
Gawyn's group of former apprentice warders, who fought in the Aes Sedai and Warder Civil War. Signet: a Silver Tower, on the collar for veterans who fought their teachers.
A good number of Gawyn's Younglings were captured at Dumai Wells. They were last known to be prisoners guarded by Cairhienin & Mayeners. (LoC, Ch.55 "Dumai's Wells)
Cairhien Cha Faile, are called Younglings by Older Folk. (ACoS,Ch.5 'A Broken Crown')



Until just now, I had forgotten about that group of Gawyn's Younglings who are still prisoners, somewhere in Cairhien. Likewise I forgot that a Younglings symbol is the Silver Tower on the collar. Ditto for the Cha Faile, I missed that Younglings labeling of them previously too.


I broke down who's been called a Youngling because Moiraine fate seems to be tied to individuals and groups called by that label.

yks 6nnetu hing
09-21-2011, 07:14 AM
I broke down who's been called a Youngling because Moiraine fate seems to be tied to individuals and groups called by that label.

and the thought process behind this little Explosion of Wondrous Insight is?

Zombie Sammael
09-21-2011, 07:36 AM
and the thought process behind this little Explosion of Wondrous Insight is?

I think Felix would greatly enjoy the writing of a Mr Hal Duncan.

Tree Brother
09-21-2011, 03:38 PM
Will she live or will she die and why? Go

If the pattern survives, that is, the Light wins, then we know that Moiraine and Thom get married (one of Min's viewings).

If that does not happen prior to the last battle, then she will live. Her personality dictates that getting married would be a distraction from what she needs to do -- but it has been a while since I read ToM, so ...

FelixPax
09-21-2011, 05:30 PM
and the thought process behind this little Explosion of Wondrous Insight is?

A question of who Moiraine is most likely to interact with in 'A Memory of Light' book.

Rand al'Fain
09-22-2011, 12:37 AM
Personally, I think she'll live. Every other super girl that has been rescued has so far come out alive, somehow, and still plotting. Moiraine, unlike the others thus far, threw herself in there for the better of the world, and not on a whim. Plus, they just went through the whole rescuing of her, and I doubt they would kill her off like that.

yks 6nnetu hing
09-22-2011, 04:17 AM
A question of who Moiraine is most likely to interact with in 'A Memory of Light' book.

so basically you included about half the cast and then found as common a denominator you could and then excluded the ones who didn't fit in? Such as Thom and Lan.

FelixPax
09-22-2011, 03:39 PM
so basically you included about half the cast and then found as common a denominator you could and then excluded the ones who didn't fit in? Such as Thom and Lan.

It simple was inquiry of 'who', Robert Jordan tagged with the label of Youngling(s). I did not exclude anybody I knew of, who was called that. Thom & Lan are not Younglings, their both on the older side. :p Nor did they give a pledge to any of the Younglist groups, whether Faile's Cha Faile or to the Gawyn's Younglist group of former students versus master teachers.

Thom and Lan have a different role to play in the story. Thom agreed to marry Moiraine & become her Warder. Lan is married and Warder to Nynaeve al'Meara. Moiraine did state she hoped Lan was a Warder to another woman in ToM book. Moiraine said Lan's path was a different path from her own, in ToM book.

Last I checked this particular 'Theoryland Thread Creator', wanted to know if Moiraine was going to live or die before the last page of AMoL Book was written. What have I suggested about Moiraine's fate?


Moiraine will be with Younglings across a river, Erinin river (?), when all hell breaks loose in AMoL book. Nynaeve al'Meara perspective is not likely to know if Moiraine lives or dies in this flesh & dream world called Earth. At some point Nynaeve al'Meara is going to flee 'Earth'. .


Moiraine has not been directly tied to the true blind Dragon in the story, only a False Dragon she pushed to help create. Rand al'Thor. Nynaeve al'Meara on the other hand has been tied the true blind Dragon, two current or past False Dragons, one so called future False Dragon, and every Ta'veren. Valan Luca. Rand al'Thor and Logain. Matrim Cauthon. And Perrin (ta'veren).

Moiraine gained a Promise from a person she suspected of being the Dragon, Rand al'Thor. Whereas Nynaeve al'Meara was given "dramatic vows to find her again if he had to travel to the corners of the world."--by Valan Luca (TFoH, Ch.48 'Leavetakings'). To gain that promise Moiraine had to push, but Nynaeve al'Meara does not. Rand does not love Moiraine, but Valan Luca does love Nynaeve. It's bizarre, yet true.

Lan even has something say on the matter:


“Aes Sedai marry as seldom as Wisdoms. Few men can live with so much power in a wife, dimming them by her radiance whether she wishes to or not.”

“Some men are strong enough. I know one such.” If there could have been any doubt, her look left none as to whom she meant.

“All I have is a sword, and a war I cannot win, but can never stop fighting.”

“I’ve told you I care nothing for that. Light, you’ve made me say more than is proper already. Will you shame me to the point of asking you?”

“I will never shame you.” The gentle tone, like a caress, sounded odd to Rand’s ears in the Warder’s voice, but it made Nynaeve’s eyes brighten. “I will hate the man you choose because he is not me, and love him if he makes you smile. No woman deserves the sure knowledge of widow’s black as her brideprice, you least of all.” He set the untouched cup on the ground and rose. “I must check the horses.”

Nynaeve remained there, kneeling, after he had gone.

Sleep or no, Rand closed his eyes. He did not think the
Wisdom would like it if he watched her cry.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 48 "The Blight" -- Rand al'Thor point of view, of Nynaeve and Lan


If Moiraine and Nynaeve al'Meara's soul could share a man in a prior weaving of the wheel, as Mordaine and Narisse in Rhuidean. Nynaeve is a strong enough woman to smile at another man, and still love Lan fully.

Whereas Moiraine is a strong enough woman to give up her (former) Warder Lan, to Nynaeve al'Meara. Moiraine knows her own heart seeks out Thom again. Dermon is Thom's soul in a prior flesh life.

Daekyras
09-22-2011, 04:46 PM
I think Felix would greatly enjoy the writing of a Mr Hal Duncan.

i read vellum, which i somewhat enjoyed, but have never really felt inclined to get the second book.

Although i can totally see how you connect felix to him. Haha, they could be the same person.....

yks 6nnetu hing
09-23-2011, 01:52 AM
and the thought process behind this little Explosion of Wondrous Insight is?

A question of who Moiraine is most likely to interact with in 'A Memory of Light' book.

so basically you included about half the cast and then found as common a denominator you could and then excluded the ones who didn't fit in? Such as Thom and Lan.

It simple was inquiry of 'who', Robert Jordan tagged will the label of Youngling(s). I did not exclude anybody I knew of, who was called that. Thom & Lan are not Younglings, their both on the older side. :p Nor did they give a pledge to any of the Younglist groups, whether Faile's Cha Faile or to the Gawyn's Younglist group of former students versus master teachers.

that last bit directly contradicts what you said earlier. So, again, what do Younglings have to do with Moiraine? Why are you posting about Younglings in a thread about Moiraine living or dying?

I also don't understand why you're italicizing "who".

FelixPax
09-23-2011, 06:29 PM
that last bit directly contradicts what you said earlier. So, again, what do Younglings have to do with Moiraine? Why are you posting about Younglings in a thread about Moiraine living or dying?



Nynaeve al'Meara point of view directly ties Moiraine's fate to a group called the Younglings. Nynaeve thinks there is a good chance Moiraine has been swallowed up by the Dark One. Dead.


There is no contradiction, just a misunderstanding by a HCFF. Remember this quotation, now?


“The Light preserve you, woman,” she murmured, sagging back, “if you can’t stay awake one night.” She untied the reins and massaged her wrist as she stood. “You could have awakened in a Trolloc cookpot.”

The dead leaves rustled as she climbed to the lip of the hollow and peeped over. No more than a handful of ash trees stood between her and the river. Their fissured bark and bare branches made them seem dead. Beyond, the wide blue-green water flowed by. Empty. Empty of anything. Scattered clumps of evergreens, willows and firs, dotted the far bank, and there seemed to be fewer trees altogether than on her side. If Moiraine or any of the younglings were over there, they were well hidden. Of course, there was no reason they had to have crossed, or tried to cross, in sight of where she was. They could be anywhere ten miles upriver or down. If they’re alive at all, after last night.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 21 "Listen to the Wind" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view.

yks 6nnetu hing
09-24-2011, 08:26 AM
Nynaeve al'Meara point of view directly ties Moiraine's fate to a group called the Younglings. Nynaeve thinks there is a good chance Moiraine has been swallowed up by the Dark One. Dead.


There is no contradiction, just a misunderstanding by a HCFF. Remember this quotation, now?

sweetie, that's in EoTW and specifically talking of Rand, Mat, Perrin and Egwene, not a vague group of "the younglings". Also, the quote ties the Youngling's fate to Moiraine, not the other way around.

in other words, it has nothing at ALL to do with Moiraine's potential survival or demise in Memory of Light.

Unless you're claiming that Nynaeve has the Foretelling?

The Angry Druid
09-26-2011, 06:38 PM
She lives.

I don't see the point in having her be dead for 7 books, alive and rescued finally, and then bite the dust immediately in the next one.

FelixPax
09-26-2011, 07:31 PM
sweetie, that's in EoTW and specifically talking of Rand, Mat, Perrin and Egwene, not a vague group of "the younglings". Also, the quote ties the Youngling's fate to Moiraine, not the other way around.

Disagree.
Pay attention to sentence structure.


in other words, it has nothing at ALL to do with Moiraine's potential survival or demise in Memory of Light.

It's called foreshadowing.



Unless you're claiming that Nynaeve has the Foretelling?

Dear, Nynaeve al'Meara can Foretell. Are you being dense again? It's called a 'Weather Sense' or 'Listening to the Wind'.


This time, though, something was wrong. Outside, the morning sun was a golden ball in a clear blue sky, and birds sang in the gardens, but that was not it. There would have been nothing to listening to the wind if she could not foretell the weather before the signs were visible. There was something wrong with the feeling this time, something not quite the way it usually was. The storm felt distant, too far off for her to feel at all. Yet it felt as if the sky above should have been pouring down rain, and snow, and hail, all at the same time, with winds howling to shake the stones of the keep. And she could feel the good weather, too, lasting for days yet, but that was muted under the other.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 8 "Dragon Reborn" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, her thoughts


It's not even an unique talent restricted to Nynaeve al'Meara. Other Wisdoms have in the Two Rivers area have had it previously. Granted Nynaeve is the best ever. Likewise some number of Sea Folk Windfinders are implied to have this talent, of 'Listening to the Wind'--Mother Guenna claims this to Nynaeve, Elayne & Egwene in Tear; likewise Windfinder Dorile din Eiran Long Feather directly implies this (ACoS, Ch.13) to Nynaeve, Elayne & Aviendha.

Siuan has possesses a limited variation of this talent, in being able to see ta'veren in person.


The Dragon is the Storm, and Ta'veren's are slightly smaller Storms. Listening to the Wind also includes listening to the paths of Tav'erens, of men.




How else can readers gain an idea of Moiraine's soul fate in AMoL book?


By looking at the fate of Blaes of Matuchin.


“ . . . since the day of her birth has the Dark One marked Blaes as his own, but not of this mind is she—no Darkfriend, Blaes of Matuchin! Strong as the ash she stands, lithe as the willow branch, beautiful as the rose. Golden-haired Blaes. Ready to die before she yields. But hark! Echoing from the towers of the city, trumpets blare, brazen and bold. Her heralds proclaim the arrival of a hero at her court. Drums thunder and cymbals sing! Rogosh Eagle-eye comes to do homage . . . ”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 17 "Watchers and Hunters" -- Rand al'Thor point of view

Matuchin as in Matuchin Hall. (See TGH, Ch.26) Uncertainty reigns of Blaes soul's fate.



By looking at the fate of Dunsinin.


“Two coppers, my good Lord,” a ratty little man in the doorway said. “Two coppers to see the Aes Sedai.”

“I don’t think so.” Rand glanced back at the woman. A white dove had appeared in her hands. Aes Sedai? “No.” He gave the ratty man a small bow and left.

He was making his way through the throng, wondering what to see next, when a deep voice, accompanied by the plucking of a harp, drifted out from a doorway with the sign of a juggler over it.

“ . . . cold blows the wind down Shara Pass; cold lies the grave unmarked. Yet every year at Sunday, upon those piled stones appears a single rose, one crystal teardrop like dew upon the petals, laid by the fair hand of Dunsinin, for she keeps fast to the bargain made by Rogosh Eagle-eye.”


The Great Hunt, Chapter 25 "Cairhien" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Thom in the Foregate

Dunsinin dies on Sunday, at Shara Pass.
Moiraine's flesh will die on Sunday.


The Flame, the Blade and the Heart contains stories of Dunsinin and Rogosh Eagle-eye. Stories of Moiraine and Thom's souls.


She channeled briefly, flows of Air to smother the fire, and dug into her saddlebags for the worn leather-bound book that she had borrowed from Aviendha. It was a small fat volume with crowded lines of small print, hard to read except in good light, but easily portable. The Flame, the Blade and the Heart, it was called, a collection of tales about Birgitte and Gaidal Cain, Anselan and Barashelle, Rogosh Eagle-eye and Dunsinin, and a dozen more. Aviendha claimed that she liked it for the adventures and battles, and maybe she did, but every last story told of the love of a man and a woman, too. Egwene was willing to admit that that was what she liked, the sometimes stormy, sometimes tender threads of undying love. To herself she would admit it, anyway. It was hardly the sort of enjoyment a woman with any pretensions to sense at all could confess publicly.

...

Her eyes kept trying to drift shut as she read, fuzzily half-dreaming the stories in the book. She could be as strong as any of these women, as strong and brave as Dunsinin or Nerein or Melisinde or even Birgitte, as strong as Aviendha. Would Nynaeve have sense enough to hold her tongue in front of Amys tonight? She had a vague thought of taking Nynaeve by the scruff of the neck and shaking her. Silly. Nynaeve was years the older. Arch an eyebrow at her. Dunsinin. Birgitte. As hardy and strong as a Maiden of the Spear.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 24 "A Message Sent" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view


Egwene al'Vere has hardened her soul, similar to Rand al'Thor, meanwhile Moiraine's soul has opened up to allow a place for love (as of ToM book). Egwene just cannot seem to make up her mind about loving Gawyn and being in a position of power (as of ToM book). In essence, Egwene has not become as strong at Dunsinin. Why not? She misunderstands what strong versus hard. Egwene's more similar to Aviendha, than she is to Birgitte, Moiraine or Dunsinin as of ToM book.

yks 6nnetu hing
09-27-2011, 01:52 AM
Disagree.
Pay attention to sentence structure.
disagree. pay attention to the context.
http://www.profilebrand.com/funny-pictures/category/demotivational/124_proper-context.gif


It's called foreshadowing.
That's possible. However, personally I doubt that that's the case here. After all, the quote goes like this:
If Moiraine or any of the younglings were over there, they were well hidden. Of course, there was no reason they had to have crossed, or tried to cross, in sight of where she was. They could be anywhere ten miles upriver or down. If they’re alive at all, after last night. Please tell me specifically which sentence it is that says the Younglings are responsible for Moiraine's survival?




Dear, Nynaeve al'Meara can Foretell. Are you being dense again? It's called a 'Weather Sense' or 'Listening to the Wind'.

Please give me a quote that says listening to the wind has EVER been used to predict anything other than the weather. Would be great if you could tie it to a specific life or death, too. And Min doesn't count. For obvious reasons.

Actually, I've some quotes for you that specifically says that it is only tied to the weather:TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 8 - The Storm Gathers
Nynaeve woke the next morning at first light feeling grumpy. She had a sense of bad weather coming, yet a glance out of the window revealed not a single cloud marring the still gray sky. Already the day promised to be another oven. Her shift was sweat-damp and twisted from tossing and turning. Once she had been able to rely on her ability to Listen to the Wind, but it seemed to have gone all askew since leaving the Two Rivers, when it did not desert her completely.


TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 8 - The Storm Gathers
To top it all off, her weather sense still told her a storm was on its way, closer now, while the cloudless sky and burning sun taunted her.


TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 8 - The Storm Gathers
Nynaeve picked herself up, dusted herself off, stumped the rest of the way to her room and slammed the door behind her. It was hot and close, the beds were unmade until Moghedien could get around to them, and worst of all, Nynaeve's weather sense told her there should have been a hailstorm breaking over Salidar right that minute. But she would not be surprised there, or trampled.


TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 8 - The Storm Gathers
Nynaeve rubbed her arms irritably. She had no answers, only hopes, and her weather sense told her that that hailstorm that was not there was beating the roofs of Salidar like drams. The feeling went on for days.
So you see, Nynaeve's weather sense, which you equate to Foretelling is telling her one thing is happening while in fact that is not happening. It is very uncomfortable for her.
Siuan has possesses a limited variation of this talent, in being able to see ta'veren in person.


The Dragon is the Storm, and Ta'veren's are slightly smaller Storms. Listening to the Wind also includes listening to the paths of Tav'erens, of men.
seeing ta'veeren is a Talent in and of itself, get your facts straight.



How else can readers gain an idea of Moiraine's soul fate in AMoL book?
I don't know about you, but I prefer RAFO to pretend-scientific mumbo-jumbo.

Lupusdeusest
09-27-2011, 08:36 AM
Please give me a quote that says listening to the wind has EVER been used to predict anything other than the weather. Would be great if you could tie it to a specific life or death, too. And Min doesn't count. For obvious reasons.


On the run, so can't give exact quotes, BUT, using her weather sense, Nyn predicts:
- Bel Tine
- Attack at Fal Dara
And those are just the two most blatant examples I can name. Recently we've been getting a lot of her talking of a storm coming from the north as well.
It's actually emphasised quite a lot in the text. Given that Nyn hasn't ever had any extra Talents/special weaves etc appropriated to her - it is her subconscious Listening to the Wind, as named by Moi.
This actually raises a lot of questions. Is it part of the the parcel of LttW? or is it a similar talent that she has just translated mentally in the same fashion - much as I think I am tasting some chips when I am actually smelling them?
She feels these events as a product of LttW (She could feel a storm coming, etc) but is it actually LttW? We have never been given evidence otherwise.

Edit 2: Read again, and you will notice her "storms" that don't happen in the weather - including the quotes you give above - all have things to do with events of men. Each time it coincides with a battle or man-storm of some sort. Even now the weather is almost normal they are still happening in that fashion.

yks 6nnetu hing
09-27-2011, 08:56 AM
On the run, so can't give exact quotes, BUT, using her weather sense, Nyn predicts:
- Bel Tine
- Attack at Fal Dara
And those are just the two most blatant examples I can name. Recently we've been getting a lot of her talking of a storm coming from the north as well.
It's actually emphasised quite a lot in the text. Given that Nyn hasn't ever had any extra Talents/special weaves etc appropriated to her - it is her subconscious Listening to the Wind, as named by Moi.
This actually raises a lot of questions. Is it part of the the parcel of LttW? or is it a similar talent that she has just translated mentally in the same fashion - much as I think I am tasting some chips when I am actually smelling them?
She feels these events as a product of LttW (She could feel a storm coming, etc) but is it actually LttW? We have never been given evidence otherwise.

Edit 2: Read again, and you will notice her "storms" that don't happen in the weather - including the quotes you give above - all have things to do with events of men. Each time it coincides with a battle or man-storm of some sort. Even now the weather is almost normal they are still happening in that fashion.

You have a point. I still want those quotes though. The Weather sense primarily refers to the weather. I would guess that any other "premonitions" are unrelated, but I can't back that up. Also, her "storms" that don't happen to the weather have to do with the effects of DO, Darkfriends, Myrdraal, Trollocks and the like much more than they do with specifically "events of men". On a different thought I wonder if raw Saidin might be causing her weather sense to go haywire, she comments on it and sort of ties it with Rand:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 8 - The Dragon Reborn
There was a storm coming. Nynaeve felt it. A big storm, worse than she had ever seen. She could listen to the wind, and hear what the weather would be. All Wisdoms claimed to be able to do that, though many could not. Nynaeve had felt more comfortable with the ability before learning it was a manifestation of the Power. Any woman who could listen to the wind could channel, though most were probably as she had been, unaware of what she was doing, getting it only in fits and starts.

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 8 - The Dragon Reborn
This time, though, something was wrong. Outside, the morning sun was a golden ball in a clear blue sky, and birds sang in the gardens, but that was not it. There would have been nothing to listening to the wind if she could not foretell the weather before the signs were visible. There was something wrong with the feeling this time, something not quite the way it usually was. The storm felt distant, too far off for her to feel at all. Yet it felt as if the sky above should have been pouring down rain, and snow, and hail, all at the same time, with winds howling to shake the stones of the keep. And she could feel the good weather, too, lasting for days yet, but that was muted under the other.

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 8 - The Dragon Reborn
Far down the hall full of women and small children she saw Rand striding away, his escort of women half running to keep up. Nynaeve nodded firmly. If there was a storm that was not a storm, he would be the center of it. Gathering her skirts, she hurried after him. also, it hasn't manifested nearly as much since's been spending much time with Rand, so if it is a Talent that allows to sense Saidin, then it's got to have to do with uncontrolled Saidin? Or perhaps the Taint and its effects?

I tried finding the answer in the interviews but couldn't find much, perhaps it's worth to put on the unanswered questions list.

GonzoTheGreat
09-27-2011, 09:10 AM
One example of "listening to Elayne":
Nynaeve woke the next morning at first light feeling grumpy. She had a sense of bad weather coming, yet a glance out of the window revealed not a single cloud marring the still gray sky. Already the day promised to be another oven. Her shift was sweat-damp and twisted from tossing and turning. Once she had been able to rely on her ability to Listen to the Wind, but it seemed to have gone all askew since leaving the Two Rivers, when it did not desert her completely.
Waiting her turn to use the washstand did not help, either, nor listening to Elayne’s recital of what had happened after she left them in Elaida’s study.

The Unreasoner
09-27-2011, 05:33 PM
She could still feel the storm to the north. It called on her to ride through the streets, shouting warning. Flee to the cellars! Store up food, for a disaster will strike! Unfortunately, packing earth or reinforcing walls would not help against this tempest. It was of a different sort entirely.
Nynaeve POV. Noting the nature as being distinct from a normal 'weather' storm. And the end of ACoS is full of the same.

The Unreasoner
09-27-2011, 05:48 PM
The Weather sense primarily refers to the weather.
I assume you mean Listening to the Wind, but given that most cases of it being used in the text do not concern weather, this statement appears unsupported.
On a different thought I wonder if raw Saidin might be causing her weather sense to go haywire, she comments on it and sort of ties it with Rand:
Or it could be Nynaeve correctly interpreting (if by accident) the true nature of her Talent.
I tried finding the answer in the interviews but couldn't find much, perhaps it's worth to put on the unanswered questions list.

I looked and found nothing on LttW at all. So questions on its nature are warranted. Not sure exactly what you are asking though, 'raw' saidin may need clarification for Team Jordan.

yks 6nnetu hing
09-28-2011, 01:42 AM
I assume you mean Listening to the Wind, but given that most cases of it being used in the text do not concern weather, this statement appears unsupported.


that is incorrect.

The Unreasoner
09-28-2011, 02:11 AM
that is incorrect.
that you meant LttW? Of course.
But if you did mean LttW, we don't have the means to show that most cases of its use are anything other than folklore (like damane foretelling, and referenced by the Wisdoms in LoC).

Nynaeve's ability may be unique (in not being restricted to weather), but it constitutes the bulk of our evidence.

yks 6nnetu hing
09-28-2011, 02:58 AM
I assume you mean Listening to the Wind, but given that most cases of it being used in the text do not concern weather, this statement appears unsupported.

the bolded part is incorrect.

the rest of your argument falls flat because of it. Also, Foretelling is a separate Talent, if you look at the few examples with eye witnesses we have of Foretelling, it manifests so that the person doing the foretelling goes into a sort of a trance, although that's more pronounced in some than others. Nynaeve hasn't gone into a trance ever. Although, it might be possible that I'm misinterpreting the "trance" and that's just caused by the shock of what they've Foretold

TITLE: New Spring - The Novel
CHAPTER: 2 - A Wish Fulfilled
Moiraine was just offering Gitara her own cup, but before she could reply, the Keeper jerked to her feet, bumping the table so hard that the ink jar overturned, spreading a pool of black across the tabletop. Trembling, she stood with her arms rigid at her sides and stared over the top of Moiraine's head, wide-eyed with terror. It was terror, plain and simple.


TITLE: New Spring - The Novel
CHAPTER: 2 - A Wish Fulfilled
"He is born again!" Gitara cried. "I feel him! The Dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the snow and cries like the thunder! He burns like the sun!"


TITLE: New Spring - The Novel
CHAPTER: 2 - A Wish Fulfilled
In an instant, Tamra was there, kneeling careless of the ink trickling from the table. The light of saidar already surrounded her, and she already had a weave prepared of Spirit, Air and Water. Gripping Gitara's head between her hands, she let the weave sink into the still form. But delving, used to check health, did not turn to Healing. Looking helplessly into Gitara's staring eyes, Moiraine knew why not. She had hoped there was some tiny fragment of life left, something that Tamra could work with. Healing could cure any sickness, mend any injury. But you could not Heal death. The pool of ink on the table had spread to ruin whatever the Keeper had been writing, It was very odd, what you noticed at a time like this.

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 40 - The Web Tightens
"This I Foretell," Elaida replied, "and swear under the Light that I can say no clearer. From this day Andor marches toward pain and division. The Shadow has yet to darken to its blackest, and I cannot see if the Light will come after. Where the world has wept one tear, it will weep thousands. This I Foretell."


TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 40 - The Web Tightens
Elaida continued to stare into Rand's eyes. She spoke again, barely moving her lips, so softly that he could barely hear her less than an arm's length away. "This, too, I Foretell. Pain and division come to the whole world, and this man stands at the heart of it. I obey the Queen," she whispered, "and speak it clearly."
In the case of Nicola, she doesn't even remember what she's Foretold:

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 14 - Dreams and Nightmares
Suddenly Nicola spoke, sounding half-asleep. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."


TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 14 - Dreams and Nightmares
Anaiya stared at her. "What was that, child?" Nicola blinked. "Did I say something, Aes Sedai?" she asked weakly. "I feel ... peculiar."

TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 9 - A Pair of Silverpike
Nicola Treehill and Areina Nermasiv seemed an odd pair to be friends. Like many of the older novices—women with nearly ten years on Egwene were tested now, though many sisters still grumbled that they were ten years too old to accept novice discipline—like many of those older women, Nicola was ferocious in her desire to learn, by all reports, and she had a potential bettered only by Nynaeve, Elayne and Egwene herself among living Aes Sedai. In fact, Nicola apparently was making great strides, often great enough that her teachers had to slow her down. Some said she had begun picking up weaves as if she already knew them. Not only that, but she already demonstrated two Talents, although the ability to "see" ta'veren was minor, while the major Talent, Foretelling, emerged so that no one understood what she had Foretold. She herself did not remember a word she said. All in all, Nicola was already marked by the sisters as someone to watch despite her late start. The begrudging agreement to test women older than seventeen or eighteen probably could be laid at Nicola's feet.

Also, this is what the BWB says about foretelling:
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Talents
Those with the Foretelling, on the other hand, know that certain events will happen; that these events are firmly set into the fabric of the Pattern, although the Foretellers simply do not know when and how. Foretelling has often been erroneously considered a type of Dreaming, but it cannot be called at will, and some with the Talent only have one or two “visions” in their entire lifetime. Foretelling is also linked to the Power (only those who can channel may have the Foretelling), but Dreaming and dreamwalking are not connected to the ability to channel. This may partially explain why there are more dreamwalkers among the Aiel Wise Ones than Dreamers among the Aes Sedai. Nynaeve has no idea what will happen, she has a vague feeling of "storm" ongoing, nothing specific about that.

and this is what is said about Talents in general:
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Talents
Some Aes Sedai have a special ability in the use of the One Power called a Talent. These Talents manifest in specific areas and are seldom related to the strength of the individual’s ability to channel. The most common Talent is Healing. Other major Talents include Cloud Dancing, the control of weather, and Earth Singing, which involves controlling movements of the Earth – for example, preventing or causing earthquakes or avalanches. Minor Talents are seldom given a name, such as the ability to see ta'veren or to duplicate the chance-twisting effect of ta'veren (though in a very small area rarely covering more than a few square feet). Some major Talents, such as Traveling – the ability to shift from one place to another without crossing the intervening space – are only now being rediscovered. Others, such as Foretelling – the ability to foretell future events, but in a general way – and Delving – the locating of ores and occasionally their removal from the ground – are rare. Many Talents are now known only by their names and sometimes vague descriptions, such as Aligning the Matrix, Spinning Earthfire, and Milking Tears.

FelixPax
09-28-2011, 09:00 AM
Please give me a quote that says listening to the wind has EVER been used to predict anything other than the weather.


Dain Bornhald's surprise appearance near Tar Valon. Fact.

Nynaeve's talent notices a man who is not a ta'veren nor the Dragon's soul, but whom is almost like a storm. She can feel troublesome men before they're noticed by almost everyone else {an exception is Hurin's talent}. She can foretell where men are. Men who are troublesome.

Foretelling the appearance of Dain Bornhald is a major clue, that Nynaeve al'Meara Storm finding Talent is far more valuable and important than Moiraine Sedai believes.


“Everything has been wrong since Moiraine came into our lives,” Nynaeve said brusquely. “Perrin and Rand . . . ” She hesitated, grimacing. Egwene thought Nynaeve believed everything that Rand had become was Moiraine’s doing. “They will have to take care of themselves for now. I’m afraid we have something to worry about ourselves. Something is not right. I can . . . feel it.”

“Do you know what?” Egwene asked.

“It feels almost like a storm.” Nynaeve’s dark eyes studied the morning sky, clear and blue, with only a few scattered white clouds, and she shook her head again.

“Like a storm coming.” Nynaeve had always been able to foretell the weather. Listening to the wind, it was called, and the Wisdom of every village was expected to do it, though many really could not. Yet since leaving Emond’s Field, Nynaeve’s ability had grown, or changed. The storms she felt sometimes had to do with men rather than wind, now.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 10 “Secrets” -- Egwene al’Vere point of view; with Nynaeve, Elayne, Verin, Hurin, Mat Cauthon




Moiraine's interpretation of Nynaeve al'Meara Talent is bluntly limited and wrongheaded (TEOTW,Ch.21). Moiraine possesses a common Aes Sedai cultural bias, just as do at least five of the Salidar Ajah Heads.


Siuan seems to lack this Aes Sedai cultural bias, because of her Tairen upbringing & exposures: Wise Women, Sea Folk, Naval, Weather, Traders and poor Tairen background. Mother Guenna knew Sea Folk Windfinders are associated with channeling. Guenna is a family member of Siuan's. Guenna has knowledge Siuan can use too: She known Matrim Cauthon will risk everything to rescue Elayne, Nynaeve and Egwene. Guenna knows Mat cares for one or more of them, as a man does his lover.


Nynaeve's Talent is not a singular talent, but is a manifold talent which includes: (1) Weaves of Wind {Saidar, Saidin}, (2) Weather Patterns, (3) Men {troublesome}, (4) Ta'veren, (5) Dragon's Soul.




In the case of Nicola, she doesn't even remember what she's Foretold:

Nicola was a pawn of Moghedien's, just as Areina remains to be up to present.

I don't see any debate about Moghedien not knowing how to use Compulsion weaves.



Actually, I've some quotes for you that specifically says that it is only tied to the weather:


Look again, there is at least 69 pages of related quotations related to this Talent, I know of. Hell, even the former Windfinder to the Mistress of Ships Renaile din Calon has this Talent.



“The sun moves, Aes Sedai,” Renaile din Calon announced loudly, “and danger threatens.


The Path of Daggers, Chapter 1 “To Keep the Bargain” – Aviendha point of view; in Ebou Dar





I don't know about you, but I prefer RAFO to pretend-scientific mumbo-jumbo.

Has someone not figured out, that literature is not a science? Narrative storytelling methods & strategies are more a kin to engineering than to a science. That's not a knock on engineering either, only an acknowledgement that engineering like literature can be more creative. :p


Literature can be a creative enterprise, if an author decides to use the full box of tools. Robert Jordan did just that. How does the Wheel of Time begin, in each book's opening Chapter?


The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass leaving memories that become legend, then fade to myth, and are long forgot when that Age comes again.


What else is the author telling readers in this opening line? That character's souls are reborn to live again.


Simply put, one HCFF has missed it. What one HCFF calls 'pretend-scientific mumbo-jumbo' is a literal past variation of a given character's prior lives. By looking at past lives, one can see possibilities of current lives in the future. To know the past, is to know the Pattern's scope of the future.

Memories of the past, can help foretell the future.

yks 6nnetu hing
09-28-2011, 09:27 AM
Dain Bornhald's surprise appearance near Tar Valon. Fact.

Nynaeve's talent notices a man who is [I]not a ta'veren nor the Dragon's soul, but whom is almost like a storm. She can feel troublesome men before they're noticed by almost everyone else {an exception is Hurin's talent}. She can foretell where men are. Men who are troublesome.

Foretelling the appearance of Dain Bornhald is a major clue, that Nynaeve al'Meara Storm finding Talent is far more valuable and important than Moiraine Sedai believes.any debate about Moghedien not knowing how to use Compulsion weaves. so are you saying that the Foretelling of 3 in a boat is Moghedien's doing? If so, where's your proof?

Look again, there is at least 69 pages of related quotations related to this Talent, I know of. Hell, even the former Windfinder to the Mistress of Ships Renaile din Calon has this Talent.



[INDENT]:mad: [INDENT][INDENT]
there's a fallacy in your logic. the practice of putting two sentences together, one of which is irrefutably true is used to rhetorically prove the second sentence. Thus, I may say "The sun raises in the East. Felix is mad as a hatter." While the first sentence is true, that does not mean that first of all, the second sentence is true and second of all that there is a correlation between the first and second sentence. Felix is not mad just because the sun rises in the east. In fact, Felix most probably is not mad at all.


Has someone not figured out, that literature is not a science? Narrative storytelling methods & strategies are more a kin to engineering than to a science. That's [I]not a knock on engineering either, only an acknowledgement that engineering like literature can be more creative. :p


Literature can be a creative enterprise, if an author decides to use the full box of tools. Robert Jordan did just that. How does the Wheel of Time begin, in each book's opening Chapter?


[INDENT]:mad:[INDENT][INDENT]


What else is the author telling readers in this opening line? That character's souls are reborn to live [I]again. this coming from the person seeing "a connection" between objects/actions that have no perceivable connection between them at all? such as Valan Luca and a cape. Most of your posts read: broomsticks cause snoring because clay vampires sing in the evening, while "backed up" by random quotes from the books and insulting anyone who disagrees or requests actual proof.

YOU are not the writer here, it's a series of fiction conceived in the head of Robert Jordan, When we make theories about anything, we go based on what he wrote, not what you dreamed one night.

The Unreasoner
09-28-2011, 02:29 PM
the bolded part is incorrect.
Hmm. I can easily find multiple examples of Nynaeve sensing non-storms, but have difficulty finding many examples of anyone sensing anything strictly meteorological.
the rest of your argument falls flat because of it. Also, Foretelling is a separate Talent, if you look at the few examples with eye witnesses we have of Foretelling, it manifests so that the person doing the foretelling goes into a sort of a trance, although that's more pronounced in some than others. Nynaeve hasn't gone into a trance ever. Although, it might be possible that I'm misinterpreting the "trance" and that's just caused by the shock of what they've Foretold
This may be the key point. I never meant to imply that Nynaeve had the ability to foresee future events. And I certainly never said she had the Talent of Foretelling.

In any case, we are in agreement there: Nynaeve does not have the Talent of Foretelling. I apologize for misunderstanding your position.

Sei'taer
09-28-2011, 03:59 PM
this coming from the person seeing "a connection" between objects/actions that have no perceivable connection between them at all? such as Valan Luca and a cape. Most of your posts read: broomsticks cause snoring because clay vampires sing in the evening, while "backed up" by random quotes from the books and insulting anyone who disagrees or requests actual proof.

YOU are not the writer here, it's a series of fiction conceived in the head of Robert Jordan, When we make theories about anything, we go based on what he wrote, not what you dreamed one night.

You look like you need this, Yks

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i187/seitaer9/author.jpg

FelixPax
09-28-2011, 05:39 PM
the quote you gave had nothing to do with Dain Borhnald. thus, not fact.

Who shows up paragraphs later?

Dain Bornhald with Whitecloaks. Men who are troublesome. Men who are 'almost a storm', in terms of Nynaeve's Weather Sense.


“Riders,” Nynaeve said suddenly, but Egwene had already seen them. Two dozen men appearing over a low rise ahead, white cloaks flapping as they galloped, angling toward them.

“Children of the Light,” Elayne said, like a curse. “I think we have found your storm, and Hurin’s trouble.”

... (skipped paragraphs)

“We have come a long way,” Egwene went on, “all the way from Toman Head, and if I weren’t so tired, I would never have—”

“Be quiet, girl!” Verin shouted at the same time the Whitecloak snarled, “Toman Head? Falme! You were at Falme!” He stumbled back another step and half drew his sword. From the look on his face, Egwene did not know whether he meant to attack, or to defend himself. Hurin moved his horse closer to the Whitecloak, a hand on his sword breaker, but the narrow-faced man went on in a rant, spittle flying with his fury. “My father died at Falme! Byar told me! You witches killed him for your false Dragon! I’ll see you dead for it! I will see you burn!”

“Impetuous children,” Verin sighed. “Almost as bad as boys for letting your mouths run away with you. Go with the Light, my son,” she told the Whitecloak.

Without another word, she guided them around the man, but his shouts followed after. “My name is Dain Bornhald! Remember it, Darkfriends! I will make you fear my name! Remember my name!”


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter "Secrets" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view


Get it? Elayne Trakand's comments even directly tells readers Nynaeve's Weather Sense can find troublesome men. Foretell their coming.

Egwene, Verin, Hurin all know of Nynaeve's Talent.




also, for the sake of anything you might hold sacred (Valan Luca?), can you please post withOUT indenting every single line?

Indenting is below a question posed, if you've care to notice.

so are you saying that the Foretelling of 3 in a boat is Moghedien's doing? If so, where's your proof?

Are you claiming that Moghedien did not plant Nicole, Areina and herself on the Riverserpent/Riversnake?


Moghedien created that whole set-up. Nynaeve told Moghedien what her plans were in Samara, when she was speaking to Masema, with Uno & Ragan next to Nynaeve.

Moghedien was the 'widow' in the kitchen. Moghedien's tell-tale signs of 'cowebs' were in Masema's dwelling in Samara.

When Nynaeve, Elayne, Marigan (Moghedien), Nicola and Areina all arrived in Salidar, Min claimed the three were all going to be trouble. Min was correct and remains correct.

“Those three you brought with you are trouble, and that is a viewing .”

There it was. The crack she needed. But instead of asking what she had intended, she said, “You mean Marigan and Nicola and Areina? How can they be trouble?” Only a fool passed over what Min saw.

“I don’t know exactly. I only caught glimpses of aura, and just out of the corner of my eye. Never when I was looking right at them, where I might have made something out. There aren’t many who have auras all the time, you know. Trouble.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 50 "To Teach, and Learn" -- Elayne point of view, with Min near Salidar village, in Altara

For whatever reasons Moghedien has, she placed a woman who has a foretelling ability with another woman who's to listening whatever the foreteller states.


Nicola's quick ability to learn how to channel, had some Aes Sedai wondering if Nicola was re-learning weaves she already knew, in Salidar. Those observations raise a question of if well known Moghedien's jealousy of stronger channelers (among Chosen), led her to attempt to erase memories in Nicola's mind or perhaps a mental block?

yks 6nnetu hing
09-29-2011, 01:49 AM
You look like you need this, Yks

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i187/seitaer9/author.jpg

yeah. I have a bit of personal experience with similar, but art. The art critic keeps going on and on and on and on about the symbolism of a green tablecloth... and after a while (I kid you not!) the artist who was standing right next to me, mumbles "It was pink at first. Looked stupid. And then I was out of blue paint."

Sometimes a thing is the way it is simply because that's the way it is.

yks 6nnetu hing
09-29-2011, 02:45 AM
if you don't take the indents out, I will. Consider that a warning.

Who shows up paragraphs later?

Dain Bornhald with Whitecloaks. Men who are troublesome. Men who are 'almost a storm', in terms of Nynaeve's Weather Sense. *that* is your proof? again, just because: "A happens. B happens." does not mean that there's a correlation between the two. If Nynaeve had a feeling that a storm was brewing, why do you jump to the conclusion that it's the *first* thing that happens? why not Mat's life teetering on the edge of what Siuan decides or how Siuan sends Nynaeve and Elayne off to hunt down the Black Ajah? Hell, Nynaeve had a member of the Black Ajah sitting right next to her the entire time of her "storm".


[INDENT] :mad:[INDENT][INDENT]


[INDENT] Get it? Elayne Trakand's comments even directly tells readers Nynaeve's Weather Sense can find troublesome men. Foretell their coming.

Egwene, Verin, Hurin all know of Nynaeve's Talent.[INDENT] It is not Foretelling. Foretelling is a separate, distinct Talent. Whatever it is Nynaeve does, is not documented as a Talent (which doesn't mean that it's not a Talent, it just means that there's no definition for whatever it is she feels)






[INDENT] Indenting is below a question posed, if you've care to notice.[INDENT]

what ever happened to question marks? and single spaces between paragraphs, for that matter.


[INDENT] Are you claiming that Moghedien did not plant Nicole, Areina and herself on the Riverserpent/Riversnake? It's Nicola. and while it's possible that she was planted, there's no proof for it.


Moghedien created that whole set-up. Nynaeve told Moghedien what her plans were in Samara, when she was speaking to Masema, with Uno & Ragan next to Nynaeve.

Moghedien was the 'widow' in the kitchen. Moghedien's tell-tale signs of 'cowebs' were in Masema's dwelling in Samara.
you're jumping to conclusions. Moghedien dropped everything she was doing to go after the pesky little nuisances, her only clue was "they're with a traveling menagerie". She only barely caught up to them in Samara. Also, the bolded part is where you're completely rocking off your chair. Just because a person is too lazy or preoccupied with being a fanatic to clean, does not mean that there are Darkfriends afoot. Additionally, Moghedien is called the Spider because she hides in the background, not because she plants cobwebs wherever she goes.
When Nynaeve, Elayne, Marigan (Moghedien), Nicola and Areina all arrived in Salidar, Min claimed the three were all going to be trouble. Min was correct and remains correct. well duh. That's no proof that Moghedien planted Nicola and Areina. it's just proof that Nynaeve, Elayne, Nicola, Areina and Moggy are in trouble, the center of trouble... which seeing as Nyn and Elayne are supporters of the Dragon Reborn, at that point in time located in the rebel AS camp, is not that big a premonition.

[INDENT][INDENT]

For whatever reasons Moghedien has, she placed a woman who has a foretelling ability with another woman who's to listening whatever the foreteller states.


Nicola's quick ability to learn how to channel, had some Aes Sedai wondering [I]if Nicola was re-learning weaves she already knew, in Salidar. Those observations raise a question of if well known Moghedien's jealousy of stronger channelers (among Chosen), led her to attempt to erase memories in Nicola's mind or perhaps a mental block?[INDENT] you may ave a point here. However, there is not much information that I can find to support your theory, and quite a lot to refute it, indirectly. If I recall correctly, a person's strength could not be assessed until they started to learn. now you say that Moghedien had already made sure that (1)not only could Nicola channel, (2)she had the Foretelling; and to top it off (3)Moghedien somehow reversed Nicola's ability to channel so that it (3.1)would seem to herself (3.2)as well as the AS who would teach her as if she'd never done it before?

That's a lot of conditions to be met that had to have happened "off screen" while there's a whole range of conditions to say she probably didn't:

1) she didn't have the time to prepare. Unless she had Nicola and Areina already pre-prepared, and she brought them with.

2) someone's strength in OP is evident once they've started to channel. Nicola's wasn't, she's a learner.

3) Moghedien is Careful and Crafty, remember. if I was Moggy and found some snippet of a channeler with strong Foretelling, there's NO WAY in hell, I'd let that one out of my control, I'd keep her like a treasure, shielded at all times, with guards around writing down each word she says, I most certainly wouldn't put her in danger's way or let her go anywhere where she might get out of my control.

Davian93
09-29-2011, 10:19 AM
If you ignore him, he might just go away...


On the weather sense/listening to the wind. Its more of an enhanced intuition than any sort of Foretelling. Sure, it might be related to Foretelling (I personally doubt it) but its probably more related to the weather and both The Dragon and Dark One's affect on the climate/weather that she is picking up on a subconscious level. The Dragon is one with the Land and the Dark One has had a proven ability to affect the weather. Its natural that Nynaeve has been able to pick up on this change.

Juan
09-29-2011, 02:51 PM
Have I missed anything? What's wrong with indents?

yks 6nnetu hing
09-29-2011, 04:22 PM
Have I missed anything? What's wrong with indents?

have you tried answering a post that's more full of indents than there are ants in an anthill?

Davian93
09-29-2011, 04:26 PM
Have I missed anything? What's wrong with indents?

There
is
nothing
wrong
with
indents.

Juan
09-29-2011, 04:39 PM
Could be my eyesight but I don't remember Felix posting a post like the one you just posted, Dav.

Zombie Sammael
09-29-2011, 05:00 PM
Could be my eyesight but I don't remember Felix posting a post like the one you just posted, Dav.

You clearly haven't read enough Felix posts.

Felix's way of analysing things - very symbolic and metaphorical - is interesting, and occasionally does yield insights. But he takes it to extremes and ignores the literal.

AbbeyRoad
09-29-2011, 05:05 PM
Sure, it might be related to Foretelling (I personally doubt it) but its probably more related to the weather and both The Dragon and Dark One's affect on the climate/weather that she is picking up on a subconscious level. The Dragon is one with the Land and the Dark One has had a proven ability to affect the weather. Its natural that Nynaeve has been able to pick up on this change.
Jackpot.

The Unreasoner
09-29-2011, 05:45 PM
I still don't agree that I was wrong with 'most cases of LttW in the text are unconcerned with weather'. Vaguely sensing significant chaotic events of men does not equate Foretelling. Felix may have said it, but never I.

I am slightly disturbed that yks is threatening to delete or edit Felix's posts, rather than just ignore them.

I always thought that there were four basic types of posters: the strict literal (Marie Curie), the loose literal (Terez, most of DM, and half of TL), the strict thematic (CC, and the other half of TL), and the loose thematic (I would have said 'me', until I started reading Felix's posts). Each one has its virtues, and costs.

FelixPax
09-29-2011, 05:46 PM
Have I missed anything? What's wrong with indents?

Absolutely nothing.

FelixPax
09-29-2011, 05:59 PM
She could still feel the storm to the north. It called on her to ride through the streets, shouting warning. Flee to the cellars! Store up food, for a disaster will strike! Unfortunately, packing earth or reinforcing walls would not help against this tempest. It was of a different sort entirely.


Nynaeve POV. Noting the nature as being distinct from a normal 'weather' storm. And the end of ACoS is full of the same.

Nynaeve's is foretelling or sensing the Dark One's coming. This is a different variation of Nynaeve's Weather Sense Talent, than the five I've mentioned previously: Men, Channeling, Ta'veren, Dragon Soul, actual Weather Patterns. Yes, Nynaeve can foretell when the Dark One is coming, where he is.


Reader's are told in 'Towers of Midnight' book, by 'The Creature' formerly known as Padan Fain Mordeth (Sammael) that the Dark One is the cause of the storm with black & silvery clouds. The Creature has the advantage, of visits to the Dark One in person as Padan Fain and Sammael. The Creature has knowledge of the future, as Mordeth. The Creature hates the Dark One, and knows exactly what are his creations.

The Creature and Nynaeve al'Meara's respected Talents are in agreement on who that Northern Storm is: the Dark One.

Crispin's Crispian
09-29-2011, 06:23 PM
I still don't agree that I was wrong with 'most cases of LttW in the text are unconcerned with weather'. Vaguely sensing significant chaotic events of men does not equate Foretelling. Felix may have said it, but never I.

I guess it depends on whether y'all were talking about LttW in general, or specifically about Nynaeve's ability. I agree 100% that most of the on-screen incidences with Nynaeve have not really involved the weather. Off the top of my head, I can't think of one.

But as far as everyone else who has ever been able to do it, I'm sure most of those are weather related. Nynaeve, like all the main characters, is special.

I always thought that there were four basic types of posters: the strict literal (Marie Curie), the loose literal (Terez, most of DM, and half of TL), the strict thematic (CC, and the other half of TL), and the loose thematic (I would have said 'me', until I started reading Felix's posts). Each one has its virtues, and costs.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm all about the literal if it disproves a theory. I don't like twisting literal phrases from the book into something that might possibly, in a dark room with fuzzy glasses, mean Valan Luca's cape is protecting Rand's brain from the Taint...just because it satisfies a thematic interpretation.

Sei'taer
09-29-2011, 06:33 PM
I always thought that there were four basic types of posters: the strict literal (Marie Curie), the loose literal (Terez, most of DM, and half of TL), the strict thematic (CC, and the other half of TL), and the loose thematic (I would have said 'me', until I started reading Felix's posts). Each one has its virtues, and costs.

Where do I fall into this?

And if someone else calls me a HCFF, I'm holding them down and farting beef stew in their mouth.

I thought there was something in the books explaining her talent. I'll have to try to look it up when I have time...or maybe it was a talent recognized by the windfinders but not really explained.

The Unreasoner
09-29-2011, 07:13 PM
I guess it depends on whether y'all were talking about LttW in general, or specifically about Nynaeve's ability. I agree 100% that most of the on-screen incidences with Nynaeve have not really involved the weather. Off the top of my head, I can't think of one.

But as far as everyone else who has ever been able to do it, I'm sure most of those are weather related. Nynaeve, like all the main characters, is special.
I can't even think of another character LttW. And there may be one or two random instances, but in any case, yks will need more than her word for me to accept I was wrong.
Can you elaborate on this? I'm all about the literal if it disproves a theory. I don't like twisting literal phrases from the book into something that might possibly, in a dark room with fuzzy glasses, mean Valan Luca's cape is protecting Rand's brain from the Taint...just because it satisfies a thematic interpretation.

Hmm. I maybe shouldn't have posted it at all.

It's only a gut feeling in any case. But I would say that you would only go look for an obscure quote that kills the theory if you found the thematic implications of the theory to be inconsistent with your view of the whole. You (or Rand al'Fain, if you prefer. Like I said, a gut interpretation) don't ignore or avoid literal evidence, but you will have a thematic motive in seeking it.

Where do I fall into this?

And if someone else calls me a HCFF, I'm holding them down and farting beef stew in their mouth.

I'm not sure I named you at all (or mentioned HCFF). Which may be just as well, considering...

The Unreasoner
09-29-2011, 07:15 PM
Nynaeve's is foretelling or sensing the Dark One's coming. This is a different variation of Nynaeve's Weather Sense Talent, than the five I've mentioned previously: Men, Channeling, Ta'veren, Dragon Soul, actual Weather Patterns. Yes, Nynaeve can foretell when the Dark One is coming, where he is.
I think you are assuming a precision that just isn't there.

Davian93
09-29-2011, 07:18 PM
I think you are assuming a precision that just isn't there.

That's being pretty polite about it...

Terez
09-29-2011, 07:38 PM
On the weather sense/listening to the wind. Its more of an enhanced intuition than any sort of Foretelling. Sure, it might be related to Foretelling (I personally doubt it) but its probably more related to the weather and both The Dragon and Dark One's affect on the climate/weather that she is picking up on a subconscious level. The Dragon is one with the Land and the Dark One has had a proven ability to affect the weather. Its natural that Nynaeve has been able to pick up on this change.
She sensed the attack on Ebou Dar, which had nothing to do with Rand or the Dark One or the weather.

Have I missed anything? What's wrong with indents?Absolutely nothing.
They're annoying, and unnecessary to boot. They make your posts hard to read, and that's quite aside from the content.

Davian93
09-29-2011, 07:47 PM
She sensed the attack on Ebou Dar, which had nothing to do with Rand or the Dark One or the weather.

Good call...forgot about that one. Maybe she can just sense impending chaos then. Chaos being a tool of the DO it might still fit.

The Unreasoner
09-29-2011, 07:59 PM
That's being pretty polite about it...

I'm a little drunk myself.
I
have
been
told
that
drunk
me
is
more polite than sober me.
Unless I am involved, then I apparently

hold grudges.



I can see why Felix plays with formatting...it's pretty fun


:)
:(
:confused:
:mad:
:p
;)
:D
:o
:rolleyes:
:cool:
:eek:

Crispin's Crispian
09-29-2011, 08:26 PM
Hmm. I maybe shouldn't have posted it at all.

On the contrary, I find it fascinating.

It's only a gut feeling in any case. But I would say that you would only go look for an obscure quote that kills the theory if you found the thematic implications of the theory to be inconsistent with your view of the whole. You (or Rand al'Fain, if you prefer. Like I said, a gut interpretation) don't ignore or avoid literal evidence, but you will have a thematic motive in seeking it.
Interesting. I think I avoid looking for evidence more out of laziness than thematic motive. ;)

I prefer to think of myself as a realist. Or just wishy-washy.

Terez
09-29-2011, 09:27 PM
Whereas most people accuse me of being too concerned with thematic issues. Unreasoner seems to think that I don't pay attention to themes, but this appears to be because he 1) doesn't understand the important themes as well as he pretends to, and 2) doesn't understand my posts.

The Unreasoner
09-29-2011, 10:02 PM
Whereas most people accuse me of being too concerned with thematic issues. Unreasoner seems to think that I don't pay attention to themes
Is that what I said? I know it's not what I think. Just like CC doesn't ignore literal evidence, you don't ignore themes. But, it seems to me, your posts (and thematic views) are precisely deduced from a loosely literal reading. Like I told CC, a gut feeling.
this appears to be because he 1) doesn't understand the important themes as well as he pretends toI'm not sure you have any idea how little I am certain of.
and 2) doesn't understand my posts.
Definitely possible.

yks 6nnetu hing
09-30-2011, 01:56 AM
I am slightly disturbed that yks is threatening to delete or edit Felix's posts, rather than just ignore them.


not the content, sillypants. the formatting. I'd leave the text EXACTLY as it was. Trust me, I don't want anyone to think I've had a hand in what Felix says.

Absolutely nothing.

well... indents (and other formatting) are like botox: personal choice, use it if you want to. but overusing it has horrible (http://amazingdata.com/mediadata32/Image/hot_weird_funny_amazing_cool5_bad-botox-lip-job48_200907261826453555.jpg) consequences. Felix was overusing them, and not only was it aesthetically unpleasing, it is/was very difficult to post a coherent reply, having to wade through all the tags. I wasn't the first one to complain about it either, simply the first to volounteer to manually dig them out.

also, thank you Felix, much easier to read now!

*sigh* never mind

FelixPax
09-30-2011, 03:30 AM
Can you elaborate on this? I'm all about the literal if it disproves a theory. I don't like twisting literal phrases from the book into something that might possibly, in a dark room with fuzzy glasses, mean Valan Luca's cape is protecting Rand's brain from the Taint...just because it satisfies a thematic interpretation.

No one's Cape or Cloak protected an individual from the Dark One's Taint. :p Yet both Rand al'Thor and Valan Luca are each HEROES. :) Heroes wear Capes or Breeches.




Rand al'Thor gained protection from the Taint on saidin exactly when, he chose to "made himself one with those imagined black wires" in Rhuidean, during a fight against Asmodean.


[quote]He had not seen those strange things like black steel wires around Asmodean since leaving the dark place, but he could visualize them even in the Void, place them in his mind around the Forsaken. Tam had taught him the Void as an aid to archery, to be one with the bow, the arrow, the target. He made himself one with those imagined black wires. He barely saw Asmodean frown. The man must be wondering why his face had grown calm; there was always calm in the moment before the arrow was loosed. He reached through the small angreal in his waistband, and more of the Power flowed into him. He did not waste time on exulting; it was such a small flow beside what he already contained, and this was his final blow. This would use his final strength. He formed it like a sword of Power, a sword of Light, and struck; one with the sword, one with the imagined wires.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 58 "The Traps of Rhuidean" -- Rand al'Thor point of view, with Asmodean

There are at least three foreshadowing clues, of this event occurring to someone.


Moiraine's comments to Perrin, about the dangerous of the Dream World. (TDR Book).
Lan's thoughts and Burkama's comments about "merely thinking it (Shai'tan name) drew the Dark One's attention". (NS: the Novel, Chapter "The Hook")
Rand al'Thor's comments given to Mat and Perrin: Rand mused. “As well ask for help from the Dark One .” (TEOTW, Chapter 3 "Peddler)





Dagger on the Mind: Rand's New Sickness


The new sickness Rand al'Thor experiences in 'A Crown of Sword' book, is from a different cause. This new sickness is directly related to the new connection between Rand al'Thor Mind and Moridin's Mind. It's somewhat similar to a sickness, Damane have if they channel without a Sul'dam around.

One reason Moridin does not channel Saidin, is because of this 'Dagger on the Mind' linkage to Rand al'Thor. However, Moridin's face can and does repeatedly pop up in Rand al'Thor mind unwillingly. That particular reaction is similar to what Jaichim experienced upon seeing Matrim Cauthon in Ebou Dar, Ishamael looked through his eyes & ears.



Who is a Hero; Who wears a Cape?



Tuon (Winter's Heart, Ch.14 twice; The Gathering Storm, Ch. 'Gambits')
Davram Bashere (The Path of Daggers, Chapter 21 "Answering the Summons"
Anaiyella (The Path of Daggers, Chapter 23)
Ailil's smoke-grey mare-- but not Ailil herself (The Path of Daggers, Chapter Ch. 22 "Gathering Clouds")
Rodrivar Tihera Captain of the Stone, in Tear (aPoD, Ch.21 "Answering the Summons")
Valan Luca (tFoH book, on pages 187, 230, 233, 545, 547, 555)
Lewin, who's Rand's distant Aiel relative (The Shadow Rising book, pg 291)
Rand al'Thor, in Towers of Midnight book in a scene at the Stone in Tear (Min's point of view).



Not all Heroes prefer to wear Capes... some like to show-off by wearing TIGHT Breeches! ;):D Chuckles, Faile likes her man in breeches.


Min's a Hero, who wear's Breeches

Min has said, “I abandoned my horse for you, Rand al’Thor. I curled my hair for you. I gave up my life for you! I will not give up my coat and breeches!


Many Lady's of Tear and Cairhien have copied Min's Fashion style of tight breeches. That's a major clue, they are all going to play the role of a Hero in soon enough. Scandalously dressed Noblewomen to the rescue!

Even Weiramon is smart enough to trust heroes in breeches and capes, to have the backbone for a horse charge. :)




Moiraine's Style of Dress


Moiraine make a stately first impression in Rand al'Thor's mind:

Altogether she was like no one he had ever seen before. The wide hood of her cloak framed her face and dark hair, hanging in soft ringlets. He had never seen a grown woman with her hair unbraided; every girl in the Two Rivers waited eagerly for the Women’s Circle of her village to say she was old enough to wear a braid. Her clothes were just as strange. Her cloak was sky-blue velvet, with thick silver embroidery, leaves and vines and flowers, all along the edges. Her dress gleamed faintly as she moved, a darker blue than the cloak, and slashed with cream. A necklace of heavy gold links hung around her neck, while another gold chain, delicate and fastened in her hair, supported a small, sparkling blue stone in the middle of her forehead. A wide belt of woven gold encircled her waist, and on the second finger of her left hand was a gold ring in the shape of a serpent biting its own tail. He had certainly never seen a ring like that, though he recognized the Great Serpent, an even older symbol for eternity than the Wheel of Time.
Fancier than any feastday clothes, Ewin had said, and he was right. No one ever dressed like that in the Two Rivers. Not ever.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 2 "Strangers" -- Rand al'Thor point of view, with Mat, Perrin, Ewin

Nynaeve al'Meara had a very different reaction to Moiraine's first appearance in Two Rivers. Different reactions entirely.

Nynaeve did not trust Moiraine at all... Nynaeve omitted answers to many of Moiraine's questions, whether about Rand or Perrin or Mat.

Nynaeve had previously healed both Egwene and Perrin, yet Nynaeve only mentioned Egwene al'Vere name to Moiraine. Not Perrin's. Perrin's point of view about Nynaeve's prior healing of him in Two Rivers, re-enforces this point (TEOTW book).

Two simple points, 1st Nynaeve didn't trust Moiraine, 2nd Nynaeve literally KNOWS if Perrin, Rand, Egwene, Matrim Cauthon and many other Two Rivers folk are approaching her, because of her 'Weather Sensing' Talents or an Affinity created by using saidar to promote Healing.

Nynaeve's abilities in these to areas, seem to be similar to Mierin's abilities actually. Mierin's didn't really trust Moiraine either. Mierin has healed or marked Rand, Perrin and Matrim too.

Of course, Moiraine might have created an affinity to Rand, Perrin, Matrim, Egwene by her repeated healing of them, early in the series too. And Moiraine did give metal coins to other Two Rivers young men, like Ewin.

The Unreasoner
09-30-2011, 03:38 AM
Heroes wear Capes or Breeches.
That is going into my sig, if I have your permission.

And have Youngling Rep

yks 6nnetu hing
09-30-2011, 04:34 AM
indentindentindentlistindentlistbolditalicindentli stcrazyiitalicinapotindentlistindentlist

you're off topic.

FelixPax
09-30-2011, 06:01 AM
She sensed the attack on Ebou Dar, which had nothing to do with Rand or the Dark One or the weather.


If the Seanchan invasion alone was the source, then Nynaeve should have earlier felt the Seanchan Empire invading Tanchico from the border of Amadicia. There are far more Sul'dam, Damane, Ships and military forces in Tarabon than what invaded Altara. Mat Cauthon's point of view backs that up. Your working hypothesis has holes in it.



Valan Luca was coming to Ebou Dar, too.


Nynaeve had similar comments about the biggest storm she's ever seen, in Fal Dara.

Recall Nynaeve is with THREE ta'veren in Fal Dara, and this Storm Coming is BIGGER than the effect of all of them combined.


There was a storm coming. Nynaeve felt it. A big storm, worse than she had ever seen. She could listen to the wind, and hear what the weather would be. All Wisdoms claimed to be able to do that, though many could not. Nynaeve had felt more comfortable with the ability before learning it was a manifestation of the Power. Any woman who could listen to the wind could channel, though most were probably as she had been, unaware of what she was doing, getting it only in fits and starts.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 8 "The Dragon Reborn" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, her thoughts in Fal Dara

Just before a bard was to arrive from Mos Shirare, who mostly likely was Valan Luca.


I have tumblers in from the town, and a bard coming from Mos Shirare.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 9 "Leavetakings" -- Rand al'Thor point of view, Lord Agelmar speaking to Amyrlin Seat Siuan

Valan mentioned the word 'bard' once with Nynaeve actually. And the Tumblers in from town, ultimately end up joining Valan Luca's side. The beginnings of his Circus enterprise starts in Fal Dara. At the Nine Rings Inn, Valan's only partner married a woman off a local farm. It's a long trip from the Nine Rings Inn to Mos Shirare and to Fal Dara.


Valan Luca's arrival is what caused Matrim Cauthon's luck to go horribly bad in Ebou Dar. Mat couldn't leave Ebou Dar. A bigger ta'veren pulling on a lessor ta'veren.

The Dice stopped, once Mat Cauthon could not physically flee Ebou Dar. Mat is forced to wait for Valan Luca, forced to wait on Aludra, forced to wait on Egeanin & Domon, forced to wait on and save three Aes Sedai & three sul'dam, and forced to wait on Tuon, Selucia, Setalle Anan all before leaving Ebou Dar.

The sul’dam apparently was not satisfied. The foxhead went cool again, and from behind another roar hammered him to the pavement, pavement that jumped up to meet him. Through the ringing in his ears, he heard masonry groan. Above him, the white-plastered brick wall began leaning outward.

“What happened to my bloody luck?” he shouted. He had time for that. And just time to realize, as brick and timbers crashed down on him, that the dice in his head had just stopped dead.

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 39 "Promises to Keep" -- Matrim Cauthon point of view, his thoughts




When Nynaeve al'Meara is with Valan Luca's Circus, her Weather Sense leaves her entirely. No Storms noticed at all. Why was it missing? Because the winds in the middle of the eye of the hurricane are silent & calm. Only at the edges of the storm's eye wall are the winds felt or noticed. This phenomenon occurred literally when Nynaeve al'Meara is in Salidar Altara, and her 'Weather Sense' goes completely wacky. Why does it go crazy? Because Valan Luca's Circus is pass nearby, in route to Ebou Dar from Samara by road. Nynaeve can feel his very present, it drives her nuts & taunts her!


Nynaeve woke the next morning at first light feeling grumpy. She had a sense of bad weather coming, yet a glance out of the window revealed not a single cloud marring the still gray sky. Already the day promised to be another oven. Her shift was sweat-damp and twisted from tossing and turning. Once she had been able to rely on her ability to Listen to the Wind, but it seemed to have gone all askew since leaving the Two Rivers, when it did not desert her completely.


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 8 “The Storm Gathers” – Nynaeve al’Meara point of view; in Salidar, Altara



To top it all off, her weather sense still told her a storm was on its way, closer now, while the cloudless sky and burning sun taunted her.

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 8 “The Storm Gathers” -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, her thoughts – in Salidar, Altara


Over among the novices, Elayne gave her a proud smile, but Nynaeve only shook her head and turned away. She was going back to her room. It was a measure of how the day was progressing that before she was halfway there Dagdara Finchey crashed into her running and knocked her flat on her back. Running! An Aes Sedai! The big woman did not stop, either, or as much as shout an apology over her shoulder as she plowed through the crowd.

Nynaeve picked herself up, dusted herself off, stumped the rest of the way to her room and slammed the door behind her. It was hot and close, the beds were unmade until Moghedien could get around to them, and worst of all, Nynaeve’s weather sense told her there should have been a hailstorm breaking over Salidar right that minute. But she would not be surprised there, or trampled.

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 8 “The Storm Gathers” -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, her thoughts —in Salidar, Altara

Did Dagdara Finchey possibly figure out who Marigan is? Dagdara is a Black Ajah. :confused:


Tangent: Plowed, Plow, Plowman, Mule, Dragon's Soul, Prophecy

Note: Robert Jordan uses the word "plowed" in an atypical manner. He uses it to connect actions of character's to the Dragon's ta'veren influence. The term 'plow' is specifically referred to in the Prophecies:

"As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men, and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes. The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps, the ravens feed at his voice, and he shall wear a crown of swords."

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 18
The term 'plow' also indirectly refers to a 'Plowman'. This word 'Plowman' is also a Star in the Heavens above, see Mat & Egwene's point of views.

The phrase, 'all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes' directly refers to the Dragon's soul. This is the particular Mule, that Robert Jordan once commented to a bunch of South Carolina academic professors, which will die in the final conclusion of the Wheel of Time series. The Dragon's soul is a Mule, too.

The phrase 'the ravens feed at his voice', most likely refers to the Lost Song being found and the marriage of the ravens.

The phrase 'The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps', most likely refers to the Dragon & Mule being a Bannerman to the Hornsounder, who is Matrim Cauthon. The Bannerman is more of a follower, than a leader, according to Birgitte. Birgitte has known the whole series exactly who the true blind Dragon is.

The phrase 'he shall wear a crown of swords' does not state when this individual shall wear this ruler's crown. This prophecy does not necessarily refer to Rand al'Thor, but to a separate individual. It most likely refers to Matrim Cauthon wearing the 'crown of swords', because of this prior line: "As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men". The 'plow' seems to refer to the person known as Rand al'Thor. The true blind Dragon's soul has no claim or reference to rule any lands in the Prophecies, according to multiple knowledgeable Andoran High Seat Nobles.

Tangent Ended


Nynaeve's Weather Sense: continued

“Nynaeve, Aes Sedai could brush aside anything to make the White Tower whole again. Anything. You don’t understand them the way I do; there were Aes Sedai in the palace from the day I was born. The question now is, what is Tarna saying to the Hall? And what are they saying to her?”

Nynaeve rubbed her arms irritably. She had no answers, only hopes, and her weather sense told her that that hailstorm that was not there was beating the roofs of Salidar like drums. The feeling went on for days.


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 8 “The Storm Gathers” -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, her thoughts —in Salidar, Altara


In the next quotation, Nynaeve's Weather Sense notices the Dark One's influence: "the molten sun should have been hidden by roiling black clouds and threatening bolts of lightning."

Pausing in the shade in front of the Little Tower, Nynaeve carefully dabbed at her face, then tucked the handkerchief back up her sleeve. Not that it did much good—sweat popped out again right away—but she wanted to look her best inside. She wanted to look cool, serene, dignified. Small chance of that. Her temples were throbbing, and her stomach felt . . . fragile; she had not been able to look at breakfast this morning. Just the heat, of course, but she wanted to go back to her bed, curl up and die. To top it off, her weather sense was nagging at her; the molten sun should have been hidden by roiling black clouds and threatening bolts of lightning.

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 29 “Fire and Spirit” – Nynaeve point of view


Nynaeve comments the 'The Bowl of Winds' can fixed her Weather Sense by fixing the weather patterns... in other words, the Dark One's influence on the unnatural weather.


“We told them it needed a man in the channeling.” Nynaeve sighed. “Of course, that was before Logain, though I don’t think they would trust him.”

“It doesn’t really need a man,” Elayne said. “We just wanted to make them believe they needed Rand. I don’t know how many women it does need; maybe a full circle of thirteen.”

“Elayne says it’s very powerful, Egwene. It could make the weather right again. I’d welcome that just to get my weather sense straight again.”

“The bowl can make it right, Egwene.” Elayne exchanged happy looks with Nynaeve. “All you have to do is send us to Ebou Dar.”


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 36 “The Amyrlin Is Raised” – Egwene al’Vere point of view; with Nynaeve al’Meara and others


Valan Luca and the Seanchan Empire's invasion were both in route to Ebou Dar, when Nynaeve al'Meara comments this:


So there they all were, closeted in their apartments with Thom and Juilin, anxious as caged cats, while everyone else in Ebou Dar made merry. Well, she was, anyway. What could be keeping Birgitte? How long did it take to tell a man to present himself first thing in the morning? Light, the whole effort was useless, and it was long past time for bed. Long past. If she could only sleep, she could put away memories of the morning’s horrible journeys by boat. Worst of all, her weather sense told her a storm was on the way, told her the wind should be howling outside and the rain sheeting down so thick no one could see ten feet. It had taken her some time to understand about the times she Listened to the Wind and seemed to hear lies. At least, she thought she understood. Another kind of storm was coming, not wind or rain. She had no proof, but she would eat her slippers if Mat Cauthon was not part of it somehow. She wanted to sleep for a month, a year, to forget worries until Lan wakened her with a kiss like the Sun King with Talia. Which was ridiculous, of course; that was only a story, and a very improper one at that, and anyway, she was not about to become any man’s pet, not even Lan’s. She would find him, though, somehow, and bond him hers. She would . . . Light! If she had not thought the others would stare at her, she would have paced the soles out of her slippers!


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 21 “Swovan Night” – Nynaeve al’Meara point of view; in Ebou Dar; with Thom, Juilin, Aviendha, Birgitte, Elayne

Nynaeve's is correct to feel that 'Mat Cauthon is part of it'. Mat and Valan are forced to interact with each other soon there after. Luca's the Dragon, Mat's Bannerman, and the center of the biggest storm around.


Of the three confirmed ta'verens known, only Matrim Cauthon was in Ebou Dar, when Nynaeve al'Meara stated the above. Perrin was in Ghealdan. And Rand was elsewhere, far away with Min. However Valan Luca was in route to Ebou Dar, without question.


Thom even comments about this earlier in Salidar, after returning from a trip into Amadicia to research what the Whitecloaks were up to.

Thom noticed nothing; most men were blind, though he was sharp enough usually. “We will have to be quick,” he said. “Now Sheriam’s drained us dry, she means to have us report to some of the Sitters in person. Luckily, it boils down well enough. There aren’t enough Whitecloaks along the Eldar to keep a mouse from crossing, if he had drums and trumpets to announce him a day ahead. Except for a strong force on the Tarabon border and the men he has trying to hold back the Prophet in the north, Niall seems to be gathering every last Whitecloak around Amadicia, and Ailron is pulling in his soldiers, too. Talk of Salidar had started in the streets before we left, but if Niall has even thought about the place twice, I could find not a hint of it anywhere.”

“Tarabon,” Juilin muttered, studying his cap. “All ill country for anyone who doesn’t know how to take care of herself, or so we heard.”

Nynaeve was not sure which of the two was best at dissembling, but she was sure either could lie to your face to make a wool merchant blue with envy. And right then, she was sure they were hiding something.

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 29 "Fire and Spirit" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, with Thom, Juilin, Elayne in Salidar, Altara

'Drums & Trumpets' are referring to Valan Luca's Circus. Trumpets also seemed to have sounded exactly upon the birth of Valan Luca on Tar Valon island (NS: the Novel, Chapter 'A Wish Fulfilled' -- Moiraine POV).

'A mouse', is most likely referring to a vehicle/mount (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha) of the Ganesha.




RJ: "I much prefer being remembered as Ganesha, the Remover of Obstacles."


Robert Jordan possessed a statue of Ganesha in his office window ledge, and he specifically refers to Ganesha in this blog entry below:

For Paracelsus, I had two nicknames in 'Nam. First up was Ganesha, after the Hindu god called the Remover of Obstacles. He's the one with the elephant head. That one stuck with me, but I gained another that I didn't like so much. The Iceman. One day, we had what the Aussies called a bit of a brass-up. Just our ship alone, but we caught an NVA battalion crossing a river, and wonder of wonders, we got permission to fire before they finished. The gunner had a round explode in the chamber, jamming his 60, and the fool had left his barrel bag, with spares, back in the revetment. So while he was frantically rummaging under my seat for my barrel bag, it was over to me, young and crazy, standing on the skid, singing something by the Stones at the of my lungs with the mike keyed so the others could listen in, and Lord, Lord, I rode that 60. 3000 rounds, an empty ammo box, and a smoking barrel that I had burned out because I didn't want to take the time to change. We got ordered out right after I went dry, so the artillery could open up, and of course, the arty took credit for every body recovered, but we could count how many bodies were floating in the river when we pulled out. The next day in the orderly room an officer with a literary bent announced my entrance with "Behold, the Iceman cometh." For those of you unfamiliar with Eugene O'Neil, the Iceman was Death. I hated that name, but I couldn't shake it. And, to tell you the truth, by that time maybe it fit. I have, or used to have, a photo of a young man sitting on a log eating C-rations with a pair of chopsticks. There are three dead NVA laid out in a line just beside him. He didn't kill them. He didn't chose to sit there because of the bodies. It was just the most convenient place to sit. The bodies don't bother him. He doesn't care. They're just part of the landscape. The young man is glancing at the camera, and you know in one look that you aren't going to take this guy home to meet your parents. Back in the world, you wouldn't want him in your neighborhood, because he is cold, cold, cold. I strangled that SOB, drove a stake through his heart, and buried him face down under a crossroad outside Saigon before coming home, because I knew that guy wasn't made to survive in a civilian environment. I think he's gone. All of him. I hope so. I much prefer being remembered as Ganesha, the Remover of Obstacles.

Source (http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/blog/4/entry-375-hi-there/)

Ganesha is as a character seems to be most embodied in the character of Valan Luca of all individuals in the Wheel of Time. Through aspects of Ganesha can be found in other characters as well. Look up 'mouse' & 'mice' phrases, for those.

Valan Luca is the character who 'removes obstacles' for Nynaeve, Elayne, Thom, Juilin and Birgitte in Samara. He protected them all, just as he said he could to Nynaeve al'Meara.

Valan Luca like Ganesha places obstacles in front of those who need it:



Matrim Cauthon when he was attempting to flee Ebou Dar to early.
Verin Sedai when she attempted not to go to Murandy, in 'The Gathering Storm' book

Sei'taer
09-30-2011, 07:44 AM
No one's Cape or Cloak protected an individual from the Dark One's Taint. :p Yet both Rand al'Thor and Valan Luca are each HEROES. :) Heroes wear Capes or Breeches.

So what happens to the people who walk around Randland with no breeches on? Do they wear tights? And only people who wear capes are going to be HotH? If one wears a cloak, then they are not allowed? Seems very simplistic criteria to me. "cover your balls in some breeches and wear a cape and you too can be a hero of the horn!"

Crispin's Crispian
09-30-2011, 10:31 AM
Felix...what the hell? I mean... Really?

No one's Cape or Cloak protected an individual from the Dark One's Taint. :p Yet both Rand al'Thor and Valan Luca are each HEROES. :) Heroes wear Capes or Breeches.

Really? I mean...seriously? Did you think I was actually making an argument about this?





Dagger on the Mind: Rand's New Sickness


What does any of this have to do with (a) heroes, (b) the Taint, or (c) the thread we're in?


Who is a Hero; Who wears a Cape?

I wear a cape sometimes. I wore it to the DMV once, but they didn't appreciate my heroism. Next time I'll wear clothes too.

My wife likes me in cape, though, so maybe you're right.




Not all Heroes prefer to wear Capes... some like to show-off by wearing TIGHT Breeches! ;):D Chuckles, Faile likes her man in breeches.

So Lance Armstrong is the Dragon Reborn Reborn?



Moiraine's Style of Dress

Wait...are we back on topic now? WTF man, how are any of us supposed to keep this straight?

Crispin's Crispian
09-30-2011, 10:32 AM
So what happens to the people who walk around Randland with no breeches on? Do they wear tights? And only people who wear capes are going to be HotH? If one wears a cloak, then they are not allowed? Seems very simplistic criteria to me. "cover your balls in some breeches and wear a cape and you too can be a hero of the horn!"

Tight breeches make it easier to tell if it's a regular hero or a Horny Hero.

Zombie Sammael
09-30-2011, 10:38 AM
Tight breeches make it easier to tell if it's a regular hero or a Horny Hero.

Surely that only applies to the male heroes, though?

GonzoTheGreat
09-30-2011, 10:53 AM
Surely that only applies to the male heroes, though?Obviously. With female heroes, we need more time checking them out if they're wearing tight breeches.

Davian93
09-30-2011, 11:13 AM
So Min is a Hero now?

I'm okay with this.

GonzoTheGreat
09-30-2011, 11:29 AM
So Min is a Hero now?I think that the Min case requires some more study.

Sei'taer
09-30-2011, 11:36 AM
So Min is a Hero now?

I'm okay with this.

So is Elayne! She wore them with Luca's show! She's got to be a Hero if he's the one who got her to wear them and he's a Hero too!!!

Sei'taer
09-30-2011, 11:38 AM
Tight breeches make it easier to tell if it's a regular hero or a Horny Hero.

I think Masema wore breeches too.

The Unreasoner
09-30-2011, 11:44 AM
What does any of this have to do with...the thread we're in?
We can hardly hold this against him. LMFAO... Have you read everyone else's posts? "LoDotW: Moiraine" was DOA.
I wear a cape sometimes.

So do I. I'm sure most people do. It offers a certain elegance to vigilantes... one found nowhere else.
you're off topic.
You took out part of what makes Felix Felix, and misquoted him? I looked in vain for the ordered letters L-U-C-A in that mess you've cited to him. Which makes me wonder if he wrote it at all.
I think that the Min case requires some more study.
Agreed.

Zombie Sammael
09-30-2011, 12:35 PM
We may as well just pick random people from the series and suggest that they're heroes.

Oh wait, that's what we're doing. :-P

Sei'taer
09-30-2011, 01:15 PM
We may as well just pick random people from the series and suggest that they're heroes.

Oh wait, that's what we're doing. :-P

Apparently, according to Felix, it goes like this.

If you are destined to be a Hero of the Horn, then you always wear a cape. Heroes of the horn DO NOT, under any circumstances, wear cloaks

Now, though, we have the added bonus of Breeches. So this means that if you've ever worn breeches, you will be a Hero, which pretty much includes everyone* except Nyn...but she listens to the wind, and she can punch the shit out of you, so that's ok.

*you might be curious about Moiraine...suffice to say that the 'finns are really perverted creatures.

Zombie Sammael
09-30-2011, 01:21 PM
Apparently, according to Felix, it goes like this.

If you are destined to be a Hero of the Horn, then you always wear a cape. Heroes of the horn DO NOT, under any circumstances, wear cloaks

Now, though, we have the added bonus of Breeches. So this means that if you've ever worn breeches, you will be a Hero, which pretty much includes everyone* except Nyn...but she listens to the wind, and she can punch the shit out of you, so that's ok.

*you might be curious about Moiraine...suffice to say that the 'finns are really perverted creatures.

Isn't it spelled "britches"?

Sei'taer
09-30-2011, 01:32 PM
Isn't it spelled "britches"?

in the books, it's breeches

Zombie Sammael
09-30-2011, 01:42 PM
in the books, it's breeches

Maybe it's US v British, that would explain why it's different (better) in my (superior) copies.

Sei'taer
09-30-2011, 01:52 PM
Maybe it's US v British, that would explain why it's different (better) in my (superior) copies.

So...Felix is incorrect then. Your characters all wear britches...except Nyn of course.

Crispin's Crispian
09-30-2011, 03:45 PM
So...Felix is incorrect then. Your characters all wear britches...except Nyn of course.

No, it just means the English can't be Heroes.

Zombie Sammael
10-01-2011, 05:12 AM
No, it just means the English can't be Heroes.

What about Artur Hawkwing?

GonzoTheGreat
10-01-2011, 06:09 AM
What about Artur Hawkwing?He's probably Welsh.

Zombie Sammael
10-01-2011, 07:05 AM
He's probably Welsh.

Ah, of course! In which case it would be spelled "llodrau".

eht slat meit
10-21-2011, 11:51 PM
This weeks to begin is Moiraine Damodred. We almost lost her once in Fires of Heaven until the dramatic rescue in the Tower of Ghenji but now she has a great role to play in AMoL. Will she live or will she die and why? Go

I believe that she's going to live, as the role she plays is integral to Rand's success in The Last Battle. The specifics of that role are a theory unto themselves, but it comes down to the fact that she's been set up for this role as far back as ACoS, even as far as TSR if you count the fact that she is directly tied to Mat and, maybe Rand's answers (theory-contingent) from the Aelfinn:

"You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled." + TSR

What is that fate?

""To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world!" + TSR


As of ToM, the answer to that riddle is verified; Mat gives an eye to save Moiraine.

This ties Moiraine to Mat, but affecting the fate of the world doesn't necessarily mean affecting -The Last Battle-, because many things affect the world as a whole. What then ties her to Rand?

Min's oft-mentioned failed viewing as hope for Moiraine's return. While musing on the constant image surrounding Rand, that visible representation of the Shadow's war against him:

"What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without the help of a woman who was dead and gone?" + ACoS

She is assured some great role in -saving the world- and that role appears to directly affect Rand at TG.

As I mentioned, the full reason for that is a subject of another theory, but I believe that it basically is tied to Rand's answer from the Aelfinn, that being his need to unite his cause with the Seanchan to win at TG. He already knows that much, but doesn't know that he needs Moiraine to do it.

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. " + TSR[/B]

Moiraine has some insight or knowledge necessary to make that happen.

Res_Ipsa
10-24-2011, 10:22 PM
He's probably Welsh.

French.

I have always assumed RJ drew heavily from Charlemagne. Hawkwing's rise and fall, his great sword Justice (Joyeuse for Charlemagne) all have similarities with Charlemagne.

Ozymandias
10-25-2011, 09:11 PM
French.

I have always assumed RJ drew heavily from Charlemagne. Hawkwing's rise and fall, his great sword Justice (Joyeuse for Charlemagne) all have similarities with Charlemagne.

He has similarities with any number of great conquerors or leaders throughout history... If your argument is that he conquered a great empire quickly, and had a sword that was phonetically similar sounding... well, thats pretty thin.

Crispin's Crispian
10-26-2011, 12:26 PM
He has similarities with any number of great conquerors or leaders throughout history... If your argument is that he conquered a great empire quickly, and had a sword that was phonetically similar sounding... well, thats pretty thin.

Whatever the case, he seems distinctly European, right? He might be English, Welsh, French, or possibly Greek. Then again, it could be that I just don't know the history of Asia well enough to know if there were similar great conquerors/uniters there. There was the Inca guy (Pachacuti) who in one generation basically created an empire and took over whole swaths of the Andes. But he didn't really usher in any kind of golden age either.

GonzoTheGreat
10-27-2011, 04:37 AM
Well, in Asia there was Genghis Khan. He and his minions have gotten a bit of a bad press in Europe, but they brought peace, stability and prosperity to an enormous number of people on a very large chunk of land. The primary reason why Marco Polo could safely travel to China and back is that the Mongols had removed all the dangers such as bandits, local wars, and the like.

Ishara
10-27-2011, 08:58 AM
Whatever the case, he seems distinctly European, right? He might be English, Welsh, French, or possibly Greek. Then again, it could be that I just don't know the history of Asia well enough to know if there were similar great conquerors/uniters there. There was the Inca guy (Pachacuti) who in one generation basically created an empire and took over whole swaths of the Andes. But he didn't really usher in any kind of golden age either.

Well, in Asia there was Genghis Khan. He and his minions have gotten a bit of a bad press in Europe, but they brought peace, stability and prosperity to an enormous number of people on a very large chunk of land. The primary reason why Marco Polo could safely travel to China and back is that the Mongols had removed all the dangers such as bandits, local wars, and the like.

I was just about to say that. Under Ghengis Khan, the Mongols began what ended up being the mass domination of most of the European and Asian continent, as well as the Middle East. Their policies of religious freedom, free trade and stable government brought a lot of prosperity to those who capitualted immediately. For those who didn't...well, they were either killed or used like cattle in the battles across the continents. The Mongols also had a significant love affair with skilled trades and had a huge engineering corps that follwed them around, including French miners, Chinese builders, metalsmiths, architects and the like that they scooped up in their conquests.