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The Unreasoner
09-21-2011, 11:31 PM
One of the by-products of writing out my theories was some comments on various prophecies. I thought it would be nice to get a general unfiltered discussion of prophecies going. What are your interpretations? Comments on other interpretations? Do you see common themes or images?

So here's the first half of the list. You can respond to my own thoughts, or ignore them and just use the prophecies I quoted. I put numbers throughout for reference (originally for my own benefit) that can be used when presenting your own thoughts. The prophecies I picked were ones that I thought still merited discussion, and weren't completely vague or obvious. The numbers are only where I used them, but I'd be willing to edit in some new reference points, if a need is made evident.

So what are your thoughts?

Karaethon Cycle/Essanik Cycle:

And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered(1), and the Shadow shall lie across the Pattern of the Age, and the DO shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man. Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent like rotting cloth. Neither shall anything stand nor abide...

Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow...and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth. In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind. Like the unfettered dawn(2) shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light(3). Let tears flow, O ye people of the world. Weep for your salvation.
1. The (manmade and man-made) prison will break, and the Dark One will act on the Pattern. Included to note that it seems the Prophecies demand the breaking of the seals, and that the breaking of the seals does not guarantee victory for the shadow.
2. Rand himself being linked to the dawn.
3. Seems to state that it isn't a save the world/die as a consequence thing, but a save the world by dying scenario. Wild thought: All of the Aiel die at Shayol Ghul, and they are the 'blood'. It would save them from the future Aviendha saw. Which they would probably prefer.

For he shall come like the breaking dawn(4), and shatter the world again with his coming, and make it anew(5).
4. More language comparing Rand to dawn.
5. Three thoughts: The world is totally destroyed by the DO or Fain or Rand, and is remade in T'A'R; he will be successful with his legacy and radically change the world; or (wild/plausible) Rand destroys Lews Therin's presence in the world and in T'A'R when he is born (destroying the Dragon~Land~World), and provides a new one.

He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood(6).
6. Really unimportant until later. See (61)

When the winds of Tarmon Gai'don scour the earth, he will face the Shadow and bring forth Light again(7) in the world.
7. Implies that the world is temporarily devoid of 'Light'. Maybe the darkness between the two 'dawns', maybe caused by breaking the seals like finssss suggested. Or maybe like (4) seems to allow, the "again" is the second dawn and the resurrection.

Twice and twice shall he be marked,
twice to live and twice to die(8).
Once the heron, to set his path.
Twice the heron, to name him true.
Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.
Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay(9).
8. Which is which? Are the herons "to live"? Or is it the first heron and first Dragon? The 'setting of the path' probably was necessary to keep Rand alive. Without the "remembrance lost" he may have never gained the Aiel support, and would probably have died. As the Dragon 'must' die, naming him true was a death sentence. And if Rand is Aiel, 'destroying' the Aiel may include him.

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed(10).
Once for mourning(11), once for birth(12).
Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul(13).
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.
10. 'His blood' could really be almost anything. His own blood, the blood of the Aiel, or of family, or even of friends. Hell, as he is 'one
with the land', everyone who dies fighting at Shayol Ghul could be his blood.
11. This actually seems to be the trickier of the two. Maybe the assault is scheduled for dawn, or maybe it describes Rand doing the full-power Dragon thing, (metaphorical) dawn and all. At Maradon Rand 'shone like the sun' to darkfriends, and was a wild storm of 'light' anyway. Maybe the first dawn is Rand fighting in the regular battle with his Dragon/Prince of Dawn powers, doing away with trollocs, clearing a path to the Pit of Doom.
12. Slightly easier. The metaphorical light that would come with defeating the Shadow would mark the birth of a new age. Or it could refer to Rand's resurrection. Or Rand's resurrection combined with his superdragon dawn-like persona being used again, this time to maybe seal the bore. Or to balefire a world's worth of Trollocs to bring the dead back. Or maybe dawn is balefire itself. It is first used to kill tons of people, and is then used later on to bring people back. Side note, the Dragon seems to have a lot in common with balefire. I'll see if I can get around to submitting my Fisher king stuff later.
13. Seems to demand some actual blood to actually touch the rocks of Shayol Ghul. I have no idea what to make of 'stains' though. Does one person have enough blood to stain black rock? Will all of the Aiel die at Shayol Ghul?

(14)He shall slay his people(15) with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf(16).
14. Usually people see this prophecy as pretty straightforward (and fulfilled), but I'll make a few points.
15. Who are 'his people'? The answer is usually just 'Aiel'. But is it the Jenn Aiel, the Da'shain Aiel, or the "so-called" Aiel? The Da'shain were called the Children of the Dragon, not People. And they served the Dragon, and all Aes Sedai. They were not owned. The Jenn only existed between Dragons. And given Asmodeon's comments on the siswai'aman, the name "People of the Dragon", and the warrior nature that defines the modern Aiel, I am inclined to think that Rand's 'people' are Aiel who abandoned the Way of the Leaf, the Aiel warriors, and only as long as they remain warriors.
16. The "sword of peace" might be very interesting, if 'sword' is taken to mean "that which is forbidden to Aiel" and "speaking of Rhuidean (at all)". The peace bit might just indicate which forbidden thing to the Aiel is being referenced, in this case, their history. And an Aiel would be 'slain' (as least as far as he is an Aiel, and one of the People of the Dragon) by returning to the Way of the Leaf. Rand 'kills' his people, reduces their numbers, by revealing their history. He will destroy them by demanding that they return to the Way of the Leaf, and by holding them to the Dragon's Peace (maybe as a result of Aviendha's urging). The People of the Dragon, the warriors with a history strictly dictated by the Wheel, would be no more, the "so-called" Aiel would be destroyed.

He shall bind(17) the nine moons to serve him.
17. I like the idea that Rand uses a binder on Tuon to make sure the Seanchan observe the Dragon's Peace.

With his coming are the dread fires born again. The hills burn, and the land turns sere. The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle. The wall is pierced(18), and the veil of parting raised(19). Storms rumble beyond the horizon(20), and the fires of heaven(21) purge the earth. There is no salvation without destruction(22), no hope this side of death.
18. Another reference to the seals being broken.
19. Not sure. It may refer to the fabric of the Pattern, there is similar language in some cults and ancient pagan religions that describes the edge of the physical world as a veil that can be raised or parted.
20. There were some really weird storms in the world where Rand and Moridin had their fireside chats. I think that it was a parallel already conquered, and beyond the Randland 'horizon', but I'm not sure.
21. Not sure yet. It may be key to something I'm working on. I'd like to hear thoughts though.
22. Is this always the case, or is it just in the Third and Second age? Is destruction always a side effect of beating the Dark One? Why?

(23)There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.
23. I think this is part of the 'we're not weapons, we're men' vein. And that mostly needs to be true for Rand, so the world can do all of its jobs, like providing food, and is not just focused on the Last Battle.

The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound(24) to the south.
24. The word "bound" again. Maybe part of the binding in (17) will involve pledges to not seek more territory, and to maintain order in the region.

The seals that hold back night shall weaken,
and in the heart of winter shall winter's heart(25) be born
amid the wailing of lamentations and the gnashing of teeth,
for winter's heart shall ride a black horse,
and the name of it is Death(26).
25. Who/what is winter's heart? Rand's new personality, exacerbated by the TPoD attack?
26. Death is the horse, or winter's heart? Is the capital Death significant? If it is, does it really have to mean Moridin? Is (the once) new Rand winter's heart, and Moridin the horse, taking Rand where he wants to go?

(27)The Dragon Reborn must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don.
27. Essanik, so questionable authenticity. Maybe only the Karaethon sent over was actively corrupted, but the Essanik were spoken by damane. So post-Luthair. And the transcribers may have seen fit to slip in a little imperial propaganda. Maybe there was a mention of the Dragon approaching the most powerful woman (or just person, but if it's specifically a woman it may explain why Luthair's son was one of the last Emperors of Seanchan, if not the last. A little bit like forcing the prophecy) in the world with humility and respect, and his need to acknowledge her power and/or success. Now, it may have been fulfilled when Rand saw Egwene in the White Tower: he acknowledged her power and success, wasn't arrogant, and she might have been the world's most powerful woman at the time. Of course, this isn't in the KC, instead there is the Foretelling on the Amyrlin's anger (which was also misinterpreted). But a devout imperial transcriber may have honestly thought it was obviously referring to the current Empress, and may have written it down as such.

(28)He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one.
28. Maybe the Callandor circle, maybe the ta'veren, maybe the Fain/Moridin/Rand crew.

At the end of time(29),
when the many become one(30).
The last storm shall gather its angry winds
to destroy a land already dying.
And at its center,
the blind man shall stand
upon his own grave.
There he shall see again,
and weep for what has been wrought.
29. At the end of time? How can the Wheel predict it's own destruction? Is it like (5), the world is (necessarily) destroyed (22) and is then made anew in T'A'R?

(30)Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.
30. Hard to say, but maybe related to (3) and (22), necessary sacrifice, not winning and dying but winning by dying.


Dark Prophecies:

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still(31).
Who shall stand against her coming?
The Shining Walls shall kneel.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.(32)

The man who channels stands alone.
He gives his friends for sacrifice(33).
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.
Which will he choose? Which will he choose?
What hand shelters? What hand slays?
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.
Isam waited in the high passes.
The hunt is now begun. The Shadow’s hounds now course, and kill.
One did live, and one did die, but both are.
The Time of Change has come.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

The Watchers wait on Toman’s Head.
The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree(34).
Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.
Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.
Again the seed slays ancient wrong(35), before the Great Lord comes.
Now the Great Lord comes.
Now the Great Lord comes.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
Now the Great Lord comes.
31. Maybe her lover is power, or even just desire and selfishness. Power served her (and so did desire), but after she was mindtrapped 'her' power died, but still served Moridin. Since losing her free will, desire the lover died and became desire the tormenter. Being unable to protect basic property like free will, and being unable to have or seek anything to sate desire would be hell to the selfish Forsaken, and 'serve' as punishment.
32. Lot of blood in both sets of prophecies. Is the blood related?
33. The ToM epilogue seems to link this with the standing alone. The people he cares about needed to be kept with him. Keeping them away did not protect them, but rather left them to face the Shadow alone.
34. Verin makes a good case for the seed being the Seanchan, but is the ancient tree really those Aryth nations? It seems that, if they are burning, Rand started the fire. The Seanchan went about putting it out. But if the tree is the (relative) peace of Randland, they certainly torched that.
35. Ancient wrong is interesting. It might be connected to the Towers of Midnight in Imfaral, where the Imperial family is supposed to go and 'right what they have wronged'. I think the Empire somehow allowed Ishamael to use them to get the Dark Prophecies, or maybe to house the bound Forsaken in some way. Maybe the Towers were in some way what let Ishamael enter the world. The "again" in the line is interesting though, and "wrong" may mean something else entirely in a Dark prophecy.

Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One
shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His
glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great
Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious
nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall
be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.

In that day(36), when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning(37), and
the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who
will Destroy(38), the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride(39) shall come.
Yea, and the Broken Wolf(40), the one whom Death has known(41), shall fall and
be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring
fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself(42).

And then shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our
eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him(43), and he shall take our skin, for
our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will
we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion,
and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful(44). Let the
screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!
36. Sets a (rough) time window for events. Probably not a literal day, but these final moments.
37. Almost certainly Mat, probably in the ToG, but might be the 'butcher's yard' of Caemlyn.
38. Almost certainly Rand, the former first among servants (inherently opposed to the Dark One and the Chosen who wished to be served) breaking the seals. I think it's a good idea, but even if it's a bad one, it's probably going to happen. Arguing against it is like arguing against the Aes Sedai electing Egwene. Maybe it's a bad idea, but we all knew it was going to happen.
39. Last 'days' seems to allow (36), but might not.
40. Very probably Lan or Ituralde. Some favor Rand though, or Bashere, or even Hopper. The structure of the second paragraph doesn't seem to allow multiple identities within it, especially with the "and". So Perrin and Rand are unlikely. Hopper sounds good, but seemed to only strengthen Perrin's will, and brought sadness only to Perrin and Faile. Bashere simply isn't the best candidate. Even if Rand could be linked to a wolf, he hardly seems broken, and himself claimed that he was broken, but was reforged. Ituralde has the nickname of Wolf, and Rand describes Maradon in a language very similar to that found in the prophecy. He called the men under Ituralde broken. Lan is definitely wolf-like.
41. Limiting Death to Moridin because of the capital is certainly one way to interpret this. Or Death could be death an a grand scale, or simply the effect of Moridin's orders. Ituralde was surrounded by death in Maradon. And the wording is similar to describing carnal knowledge/sex, which practically shouts 'Lan', a man who courted death instead of women. Death was his lover, and had a name: "Death"
42. Ituralde's death would certainly shake men's will. His near-loss of Maradon may already have. Could even a 'storm of light' erase the image of Shadowspawn as far as the eye can see? Lan's death, Malkier's death, the men of Tarwin's Gap dying would be crippling for morale. Rand would never forgive himself for not sending help. And it would be the final note before the confrontation, which lends itself nicely to the next paragraph.
43. Nice linking of eyes and souls.
44. Interesting. Perhaps this is the key point. Shedding the Dragon's blood may be necessary, and may be linked to the darkness between the dawns. Here though, the prophecy ends with the darkness, and there is no second dawn. Victory and defeat then may be dependent on the second dawn.


Foretellings:

From this day Andor marches toward pain and division. The Shadow has yet to darken to its blackest, and I cannot see if the Light will come after(45). Where the world has wept one tear, it will weep thousands. From this day Andor marches toward pain and division. The Shadow has yet to darken to its blackest, and I cannot see if the Light will come after. Where the world has wept one tear, it will weep thousands(46).
45. The light coming after may be the second dawn again (10)(12)(44).
46. Will Andor weep harder? Is Caemlyn gone?

The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger(47). The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds(48).
47. Known, noted, and then ignored. Done.
48. Evidently there will be a big violent battle there, and at least two Aes Sedai will survive it.
side note: the remnants=Black Ajah

(49)The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond(50). Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives(51). The great battle(52) done, but the world not done with battle(53). The land divided by the return(54), and the guardians balance the servants(55). The future teeters on the edge of a blade.
49. I will say that this prophecy seems to be dealing with events post-TG
50. I have only heard one real theory on the identities of these guys.
51. What is 'dead yet lives'? Not specifically, but generally. How does a person, who may or may not be the Dragon, exist in this state? Is it like that quantum cat-killing machine?
52. Tarmon Gaidon, certainly at least a specific battle
53. Battle here is general, so probably Way of the Leaf/Dragon's Peace

(56)The Dragon Reborn (will do) nine impossible things.
56. Anyone care to make a list? And really impossible, or just things believed impossible?


Jendai Prophecies:

(57)The doom of the Prophecy sails the oceans.
57. Is it really the Seanchan? How are they a prophecy-level 'doom'?

Those who once ruled have returned(58) and been driven back for the first time(59).
58. So the Sea Folk and Fain may have been the only ones to believe the Seanchan's claims right off the bat.
59. 'First' time is interesting. Of how many? Do the Jendai Prophecies go into the details of the Seanchan-Dragon War?

(60)The Blade will bind him by twain.
60. I like all the interpretations of this one. The Justice alliance would be preferred if I thought that the Seanchan would not only want the sword badly enough to pay for it, but also believed its authenticity. 'Twain' seems very simmilar to 'two as one'.


Aiel Prophecies:

(61)Blood of our blood mixed with the old blood, raised by an ancient blood not ours.
6. Finally back to (6). Are these contradictory? Does relative language make them compatable (Andoran royal line is 'old' but Manetheren is 'ancient' in comparison, while they are all as children to the Aiel)? Manethren could be only 'old' in the KC.


Egwene's dreams:

An enormous sphere made of the finest crystal(62) on a dark hilltop(63). It sparkles in the light of twenty-three enormous stars(64). There are cracks in it and it is help together by ropes(65). Rand walks up with a woodsman axe and chops the ropes(66). The sphere breaks apart, falling to pieces and Rand shakes his head(67).
62. The language connotates that this crystal is a 'good' thing.
63. 'Dark' may mean nothing. But I see it as a way to orient the spere, and therefore believe the sphere is the prison of the Dark One.
64. People have been trying to assign some meaning to the number twenty-three. My interpretation likes one for the Amyrlin, one for the Keeper, and one for each Sitter. As stars, they connotate at least a theoretical goodness.
65. So the Sphere is imperfect at the moment. Ropes could be the Seals. But as the ropes are not part of the sphere, it implies a perfection predating the ropes and cracks. Maybe sphere=original prison, cracks=Bore, and ropes=Seals.
66. Rand seems to have no qualms here. As the case appears to be with the Seals.
67. Tricky. Why does he shake his head? Remorse? Bitterness? Amusement at the ultimate insignificance of a thing that seemed so great? Did he know what chopping the ropes would do?

Since Rand shakes his head after the sphere breaks, the breaking of the sphere could not be equivalent to releasing the Dark One, as Egwene could not Dream of meaningful events after the Pattern ceases to exist.

So I considered the dream with the wall of black and white discs that Egwene tries to tear down, but is unable to. In order to move forward, the wall must be destroyed. You can run laps around the mountain as much as you want (play around on one side of the wall), but eventually the mountain must be climbed (tear down the wall and move forward).

So I think that the sphere was never whole/perfect. The sphere is two things: the temporary prison (made by men, guarded by women), and Aes Sedai, as they currently understand themselves. The Amyrlin (and the other Aes Sedai, represented by sisters of the oppressive White Tower political system that created the current batch of Aes Sedai) are defined by watching the Seals. Of an imperfect prison. So building on Rand's idea of Aes Sedai, the meaningless titles, the rebel Cadsuane being as she is, and the notion that everything changes, I think that this is something like Aviendhas dilemma. Aes Sedai watch the Seals. What are Aes Sedai if the Seals are no more?

Egwene was trying to tear down the White Tower by trying to tear down the wall. But not Aes Sedai. Aes Sedai will live on, given a new purpose. Stars will still shine. But these twenty-three (the White Tower political system) will no longer be meaningful as the lights illuminating this particular sphere. Rand shook his head because his presence renders the sphere no longer useful.

FelixPax
09-22-2011, 12:10 AM
So what are your thoughts?

Valan Luca is not mentioned even once anywhere in your speculations, hypotheses or theories. Nor have the Tuatha'an, Lost Ones, Tinkers been mentioned. It's as if, neither ever existed in the Pattern, in your interpretations.



Swallowed by the storm.

Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 4 "The Tale of a Doll" -- Furyk Farede point of view

Who was 'Swallowed by the storm'?
Tuon.
Who is the Storm?
Valan Luca.
Who is the Dragon?
Valan Luca.

What storm did Nynaeve al'Meara feel coming to Fal Dara, in TGH book?
Valan Luca (TGH, Ch.8). Traveling from Mos Shirare (TGH, Ch.9)
What storm did Nynaeve al'Meara feel pass nearby Salidar, Altara?
Valan Luca.
What does Nynaeve al'Meara 'Weather Sense' notice?
Storms created by Men (Egwene POV).

For he shall come like the breaking dawn, and shatter the world again with his coming, and make it anew.

Valan Luca shall come like the breaking dawn. A dawn created by Rand al'Thor's lightning & death (of flesh). Valan Luca shall shatter the world again with his coming. The Stone in Tear shall Fall. Physically destroyed. Valan Luca shall re-make the world anew. By Dreaming of it, with Nynaeve al'Meara and Lan.



The Blade will bind him by twain.

This foretelling has more than one interpretation, I suspect. Twain can mean 'two'. Bind can mean 'marriage'. Bind can also mean a 'merging of souls', Slayer style (Isam + Luc = Slayer). Bind can also imply a promise, a contract.

It can also apply to more than one individual, two individuals or any three individuals. In other words, it could apply to Mat Cauthon, Rand al'Thor, Moridin/Ishamael, Valan Luca et al.


The Blade could be more one Blade, not only the Sword of Justice (formerly Hawkwing's). But also the Sword of Kirukon (formerly Nynaeve's soul's); Callandor; Sword of the Sun (formerly Amaresu's, Laman's Sword; Cairhien Ruler's Sword), Matrim Cauthon's Power-wrought Spear Blade. Every single one of these Blades is important to the narrative.

Rand al'Fain
09-22-2011, 02:09 AM
Firstly, I don't see all the Aiel/Aiel warriors dying, FYI. Just to get that out of the way.
Okay, a few things.
5. Three thoughts: The world is totally destroyed by the DO or Fain or Rand, and is remade in T'A'R; he will be successful with his legacy and radically change the world; or (wild/plausible) Rand destroys Lews Therin's presence in the world and in T'A'R when he is born (destroying the Dragon~Land~World), and provides a new one.
Disagree. From the way I read it, it looks more to do with the way that nations seemed to fall apart into chaos since Falme, even an argument could made for Cairhein with simply him being there. Plus the long winter and incredible drought that followed. And chaos in general. I see it in a more metaphorical sense.

Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed(10).
Once for mourning(11), once for birth(12).
Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul(13).
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.
10.) I have always thought the "his blood is shed" has to do with family, most notably, a certain uncle that so wishes to kill him, as stated from a POV. Take it for what it's worth, but it makes about as much sense as anything else.
11. and 12.) For mourning, possibly due to the death happening around him, and birth of a new age would be my guess.
13.) This seems to mean Rand's own blood. His wound's on his side that never fully heal are there for a reason after all. Maybe his blood is a clue to seal the DO for another couple of Ages? It is distinctive in mentioning the Dragon's Blood on Shayol Ghul, stained no less. Hmmm, I just got an idea. More on it later.

(14)He shall slay his people(15) with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf(16).
14.)Once again, I see it figurtively. His people, the Aiel in general, are based 100% as a warrior society. Ties into the next part.
15./16.)The sword of peace, well, Aviendha did give Rand a sword, and a sword that belonged to the only nation that the Aiel were at peace with for 500 years. And the Leaf, is of course, the Way of the Leaf, which goes against EVERYTHING that the Aiel stand for outside of not touching swords.

(27)The Dragon Reborn must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don.Honestly, not sure what to make of it. Personally, I don't like it and see it as at best, a partial truth, but mostly hogwash. Impartially, no clue if it has any merit or not.

(30)Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized. I see this as one of two things. Also, not the word "can" in there. It means it is not definite on the outcome.
1. Could mean that at Shayol Ghul, Rand battles the DO in an epic battle, and if he dies there, he COULD be turned to the DO's advantage.
2. Or, it could refer to when was Rand being completely bonkers (the whole balefiring the structure where Graendal was, etc, that time period), and he very nearly did the Dark One's work for the Dark One, thus allowing all that he is, to be seized, but, he realized the error of his ways with his epiphany and did not lose himself.

The Unreasoner
09-22-2011, 11:56 AM
Firstly, I don't see all the Aiel/Aiel warriors dying, FYI. Just to get that out of the way.
Lol. Definitely possible.

This isn't really a thread where you are required to believe what you argue. I don't necessarily see all of the algai'd'siswai dying either, but those comments were put down when I was toying with the idea that whatever is left of the Shaido will be the 'remnant of a remnant'.

Rand al'Fain
09-22-2011, 12:03 PM
Lol. Definitely possible.

This isn't really a thread where you are required to believe what you argue. I don't necessarily see all of the algai'd'siswai dying either, but those comments were put down when I was toying with the idea that whatever is left of the Shaido will be the 'remnant of a remnant'.

Shaido already are a remnant of a remnant of what they were.;)

Lupusdeusest
09-23-2011, 06:44 AM
...those comments were put down when I was toying with the idea that whatever is left of the Shaido will be the 'remnant of a remnant'.

Someone is coming to my camp? :D

Davian93
09-23-2011, 11:44 AM
Someone is coming to my camp? :D

http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=175

Ahem...my faction, my camp.

Feel free to join ;)

Sei'taer
09-23-2011, 12:09 PM
Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent...

Everybody will eat good. Roasted Quail and weeping women. Sounds like a recipe for a good night! Their world will be complete!


Now, if we could just find the prophecy that says Valan Luca will eat a fat one and die choking on it never to be seen again because the horn won't hold somebody who died because he couldn't chew his food correctly, our world would be complete.

Juan
09-23-2011, 01:22 PM
I thought we had established that Tam would be Tamyrlin of the new order of Aes Sedai since their names are so alike and clearly it's what RJ intended.

Weiramon
09-23-2011, 01:29 PM
No doubt he is the reborn soul of the legendary Cutter.

The Unreasoner
09-23-2011, 04:41 PM
http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=175

Ahem...my faction, my camp.

Feel free to join ;)
You and the wolf god.

Truly, there is nothing new under the sun. Why do I bother?

Well, nothing worthwhile. Most people saw fit to leave Bryne alone.

greatwolf
09-24-2011, 06:45 PM
Whew! You've certainly done a good job here. It will take a while to properly digest this but I guess I can post a few less important responses straight off.

17. I like the idea that Rand uses a binder on Tuon to make sure the Seanchan observe the Dragon's Peace.


Unlikely since Tuon is no longer DoNM but empress. Of course it could refer to him binding the court of nine moons, but I think introducing the court at this point for this would be pretty lame.

More than likely its just more proof that the "Dragon reborn" includes Mat and Perrin as well. To some of us that might be news, but I suspect quite a lot are already leaning in that direction. Its just that no one has ever dug up direct proof for it that I recall.

But think about it and you'll find a few answers. And more questions.


19. Not sure. It may refer to the fabric of the Pattern, there is similar language in some cults and ancient pagan religions that describes the edge of the physical world as a veil that can be raised or parted.

TAR?


25. Who/what is winter's heart? Rand's new personality, exacerbated by the TPoD attack
26. Death is the horse, or winter's heart? Is the capital Death significant? If it is, does it really have to mean Moridin? Is (the once) new Rand winter's heart, and Moridin the horse, taking Rand where he wants to go?


Another option would be the Rand/Moridin merger. Moridin (or even Rand) could be considered the horse (read vehicle) of that mechanism. But why?

greatwolf
09-24-2011, 07:12 PM
And it would help if you could provides references with the quotes. I'll like to recheck some of the wording.


33. The ToM epilogue seems to link this with the standing alone. The people he cares about needed to be kept with him. Keeping them away did not protect them, but rather left them to face the Shadow alone.

I think a shadow prophecy might refer more to the shadow champion - Moridin, sacrifing the other forsaken or at least giving them up. Pretty starightforward.

FelixPax
09-24-2011, 08:45 PM
He shall bind(17) the nine moons to serve him.

17. I like the idea that Rand uses a binder on Tuon to make sure the Seanchan observe the Dragon's Peace.


I prefer the idea that, Matrim Cauthon shall accept a joint set of marriage proposals by the Nine Moons to serve him.

He = Matrim Cauthon
Bind = marriage contract & vow of allegience
Nine Moons = are his Age's version of the Nine Rods of Dominion.
to serve him = First among Equals, or Matrim Cauthon is King.


The Nine Moons do not represent Tuon or Elayne, I think, as they are the Ravens identified on Matrim Cauthon Carver's Ring.

Tuon already has made a marriage propose to Mat. Elayne is going to lie in front Tuon and everyone else by claiming Mat is her betrothal. Thus, neither Tuon nor Elayne will ask Mat to marry him. They will ask him who is his wife. Unfortunately for Matrim Cauthon, he is going to be 'forced' to accept Elayne's sham and lies to save her very life. If Mat says no, liars like Elayne will get the 'cord': death.

The Nine Moons are likely to be Rulers or high level leaders of national groups. I'm still am unsure exactly who is among these nine individuals. However, I do exclude Mierin/Lanfear and Tuon from being any of the nine moons. Likewise I exclude Nynaeve, because she already gave a promise to Matrim Cauthon in Ebou Dar. Who's left?

Min.
Aiel Clans = Aviendha
Sea Folk Clans = Harine
Kin & Merchants = Alise Tenjile
Tarabon = Amathera
Amadicia = Morgase or Aravine Carnal
Cairhien = Birgitte or Caraline Damodred
Tear = one except maybe Caraline Damodred (repeat)
Kandor = maybe Queen Ethenielle, assuming she lives (I'm very skeptical of that)
Aes Sedai = Egwene and others.


Yes, that's not the fully list. It's only a sketch of a few of them. There does exist a valid question of whether the sister-wives concept means Min, Aviendha will also be forced to married to Matrim Cauthon, because of Elayne's Great Lie. If so, that means Tuon, Elayne, Min, Aviendha are not any of the Nine Moons.


Show Folk, Kitchen Folk, Amayar who if any?



Who is not going to marry Cauthon?


Saldaea ruler to wed Beslan, not Matrim Cauthon.
Altara King Beslan already gave an Oath to Tuon.
Malkeir queen Nynaeve already gave an Oath to Mat, no marriage needed, in theory. (Perhaps she'll pick Valan Luca, as he once claimed through?)
Ghealdan official ruler Queen Alliandre already gave an Oath to Perrin, who's authority spans to the person who is seen as the Dragon Reborn. No marriage to Mat is needed. (Perhaps Logain through?)
Rand al'Thor. Why not? I suspect he will be busy doing other things, before Matrim Cauthon & Valan Luca each arrive on scene for 'easing the badger'. Moiraine has a promise to cash in, a promise that Rand gave to save Tam al'Thor life.
Berelain the First of Mayene, is already of the Blood as a distant Hawkwing scion. No need to marry Mat.




Logain & Alliandre

There is an open question about Logain fate, however if he wed Queen Alliandre, he technically becomes King of Ghealdan with Alliandre as Queen. Her prior Oath to Perrin and the Dragon Reborn would then 'Protect' what's left of male Asha'man or male Aes Sedai, Ghealdan proper and himself personally. Thus, Logain does not have to marry Matrim Cauthon as a First-Brother, but marrying Alliandre would extremely wise for him.

In Queen Alliandre's eyes she has been looking for protect from the Whitecloaks, from the Seanchan Empire, from Chaos and marrying Logain would help she with each of her problems & desires.


Galad & Berelain


Galad's future marriage to Berelain should protect the Whitecloaks and himself from the clutches of the Seanchan Empire. Why? Because Berelain is a scion of Hawkwing. To marry Berelain would automatically change Galad's status to, being a Blood in the eyes of the Seanchan Empire.

GonzoTheGreat
09-25-2011, 05:26 AM
Unlikely since Tuon is no longer DoNM but empress. Of course it could refer to him binding the court of nine moons, but I think introducing the court at this point for this would be pretty lame.The prophecy does not mention "daughter". It does not mention "courts".
'shall bind the nine moons to serve him'Now, examine that, taking into account the "daughter" and "court" bits:

If Tuon used to be the DotNM, then who is the Nine Moons herself? The Empress, obviously.
If the Court of the Nine Moons is where the Empress holds court, then who is the Nine Moons herself? The Empress, obviously.

Who is the Empress, right now?

Lupusdeusest
09-25-2011, 08:02 AM
http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=175

Ahem...my faction, my camp.

Feel free to join ;)

Ooooh (and golly, I remember that formatting...) I shall traipse over to your roof, then.

obi1one
09-25-2011, 10:10 AM
When I look at 10 (twice dawns the day), and some of the others about blood, then 51 and the talk of he 'who is dead yet lives', and finally remember that Alivia has to help him die, I wonder if he is going to put on one of the ter'angreal rings from the blood knives, and Alivia will tell him activate it (shedding a drop of his blood). As soon as he is wearing it, he is a dead man walking.
The enhanced steath, strength and speed one gets from the ring might be just what he needs to win TG, or those might not be the only things a channeler gets from the ring.

FelixPax
09-25-2011, 07:01 PM
http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=175

Ahem...my faction, my camp.

Feel free to join ;)

No thanks. :p ;)


What's my problem with your faction's claim (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=175)?

We believe ...that the Shaido following Therava back to the Three-fold land will be the remnant of a remnant of Aiel that survives the Last Battle.

Therava.
Therava being one of the remnant of a remnant.
Therava's flesh surviving the Last Battle.


Therava's a crude character who's enjoyed breaking a person's will. Remember Galina?



What might happen to Therava?

Suffocation. Buried in mountain avalanche. ;)


Who's a Remnant of a Remnant among the Shaido?

Not Therava's Shaido faction. More likely is the Shaido Wise Ones & individuals captured by the Seanchan Empire, and the Shaido Aiel captured by other Aiel Clans in Illian & Cairhien. Shaido survivors won't hold a spear.

GonzoTheGreat
09-26-2011, 05:24 AM
Not Therava's Shaido faction. More likely is the Shaido Wise Ones & individuals captured by the Seanchan Empire, and the Shaido Aiel captured by other Aiel Clans in Illian & Cairhien. Shaido survivors won't hold a spear.So you think that Sevanna is gonna be the role model for Aiel in the Fourth Age?

The Unreasoner
09-26-2011, 10:26 PM
And it would help if you could provides references with the quotes. I'll like to recheck some of the wording.

Yes, I'm trying to incorporate citations into the second half (mostly Min's viewings and dreams). If there is a specific one you want that is here, I'll try to edit it in. I will say that they are quoted exactly if there was a direct quote. If a thing was paraphrased, I only changed the pronouns for clarity. This was originally just a resource for me. All of the prophecies in one place for reference. And I included my thoughts/responses, but they are really just that. I didn't try to list every possible interpretation, or even all of the ones that I found plausible. Just some idle thoughts of mine. And this thread was intended to get the first thoughts of others as well, I wasn't simply trying to get feedback on my ideas.